Federal Prison Shot Caller On Life Inside Aryan Brotherhood, Surviving Knife Fights & DEADLY Riots

You got a life sentence effectively, and you went in at what age? I went in when I was 38. All right, so you're cooked. There were so many stabbings. It's like every, I'd say three days a week, four days a week. You're going to chow, and I'll say, boom, boom, boom. The towers going off, the grenades are coming out. And you just turn, and there's like two or three guys on a guy or multiple guys getting down with big ass knives. And it's amazing how many times the guy that's going to get it doesn't know it's coming. I've seen a guy get murdered for $20 bill. The race forers are the narliest. Everybody's in it. This is Diego Mark. The San Diego surfer bro turned drug kingpin who spent 22 years in federal prison as an alleged member of the Aryan Brotherhood. Mark spent his entire sentence in the highest level USP penitentiaries, where he was deeply entrenched in white gang politics. He gives fascinating insight into the strict code of conduct amongst the white prison cars and the grotesque levels of violence that occur when these rules are broken. The fact that he's here today with me in the free world and not doing life in a super max prison is a miracle. So get ready. It's part two of his epic story, Mark Brennan, AKA Diego Mark, right here on the connect with Johnny Mitchell. It's hard to know where to begin after what we just talked about. But you're down now and you got 60. You got a life sentence effectively. And you went in at what age? How I've spoken to a lot of people on this show that beat life sentences or went in with life sentences and then they got out on appeal and different things like that, resentances. How confident were you after all of the trickery and the fuckery and the law breaking that was done by the government in your case? How confident were you that you could get it overturned? That you could actually end up getting out of prison? That's a good, that's a great question and this is what was so frustrating. I knew when they convicted me the reason I never took a plea. First of all, they offered me 30 years. That's not a plea, that's still a lot of time. And that was before they brought the shooting charges on me. So here's the deal. I thought 100% that I would overturn my case based on what the private investigator did based on them taking my attorneys in a closed hearing and sealing it, everything. Spying the camp, I mean, I thought for sure. And it was so much so that I had spent $550,000 on trial lawyers and appellate lawyers combined, which was a lot back in early 2000. And when I was in, a case came down called Gonzalez Lopez versus US, for instance. And that's a case, I believe it was a 2005 or 6 case. Spring Court rolling said, "Under no circumstances, "can you ever remove a person's counsel from them?" Period, they're paid counsel. You can't. And so one of my appeals lawyers rise your hands and goes, "Oh, we're gonna get you out for sure, for sure." And I'm like, "Oh God, let's go, man, finally, "I'm finally gonna get out." They just, all my appeals, every appeal that I ever filed against the PI, against what they did using him, taking the attorneys away from me, they all fell on deaf ears. I mean, I would get, I didn't just do my direct appeal, my 2025, my 20241, I didn't just do it once. My search for Supreme Court is for appeal. I didn't twice because I got resentants in like 05 or 6 on the Amelene case, which simply said that the minimum mandatory sentences, I mean, no, excuse me, it said the guidelines or advisory now, not mandatory. There used to be mandatory guidelines. So when I went in for that, it didn't make any difference. Like, it's the only one I ever really got back in court on because all it said was their advisory and the judge was like, "Man, I gave you 720 months." That's a deal, you should have got life. So every appeal I ever filed, every bit of evidence I showed him just was ignored because of who the violence was against. The prosecutor from the state of Arizona. Yeah, I mean, it was kind of fixed. Okay, so how were you feeling when you went in, were you feeling that anger and the bitterness that most cats with life do when they go into the system? Yeah, I mean, I was really bitter about what they got away with to convict me. Like, it was, it's almost a case of first impression and that's what my lawyer said. We're arguing this case on two cases of first impression, meaning there's no case to compare it to. The PI is a working informant and been a working informant against a ton of other clients. There's a five-part series about it. Insane. It's not just like I'm crying wolf here. It's all right there. And the second one is, you held a closed hearing and fired all my paid attorneys, the right to counsel. It's a most fundamental constitutional right. And, you know, Janet Napolitano, the one that originally and died of me gave my case to Billy the Bulldog Rosen, became the governor of Arizona, and then she became the head of Homeland Security. She's probably one of the top 10 most powerful people in the United States, give or take. And so it's no coincidence that my rulings coming back from these various appellate courts were very short and concise, not really very descriptive. You know, the opinions weren't laid out like a lot of opinions on appeals are, which is very detailed why we did this, why we did that. It felt like it was all still being covered up. It was all, you know, still business is usual. So while you're waiting to keep fighting your appeal and keep, you know, pursuing it in higher and higher court, you gotta live in the US peace. Yeah, it was super violent. I mean, it's like it was, I began an at-water in '03. Now, the games didn't even stop there. I got convicted in '03. I was sent to at-water after being sentenced to a while to get placed. November 2003, Atlanta at-water penitentiary. April of '04, not six months later, I'm re-indicted in the state for the shooting once again. Now, the state wants a piece of me. And I'm taken back to Maricopa County, jail and Arizona. And for all your viewers, I already know by expression, there is no Bigger Scott Maggins, Sheriff Joe Rapile, and there is no harder time than I've been in all the smooths and the shoes in the system. I've broken records for transfers from shoes. And I can tell you this, Maricopa County was by far the worst most night. You think it's warm out here during the Seat Wave? There was half that jail, they run on swamp coolers. There were cells so hot you'd touch the wall and like pull your hand off it. Like you're just sweating and you can't breathe and they got 72 guys and small units. But then the mistreatment in the morning, you get a lad most sack of paper bag with like a piece of fruit, a baloney sandwich and a bag of chips, no lunch, none. And then you get dinner, which is donated slot from the community. And he used to brag, Rapile did, that he fed the animals in the Humane Society better than he took care of the prisoners. And look, I'm all about that. I like animals way more than people too. But I mean, you know, everybody's watching you do this. It's, I mean, I agree with you. I love dogs, you know, and I love all animals. And you know, it's just, yeah, I did some hard time. Why sat in that jail for two years? Well, they tried to get meat of rat back at the guys that testify against Vancouver. Namely, the shooters, yeah. And Bob Owens, the PI. And when it came down to Bob Owens, I made it clear. I said, look, I'll never snitch on anyone. That dude's a cop. And if they're willing to talk to me about the way he set me up and everything he did illegally, I'd be happy to talk to you. But they never, ever would agree to talk about that, man, because he is what's known as Arizona's dirty little secret for the law enforcement community. And you know, I mean, he's setting me up in my law team. He's open game, you know what I mean? And I'll never sit in the court testify against anyone. But if I'm fighting an appeal, and I'm talking all about this, dude, like all my appeals, how can this guy be? I mean, my lawyers that did my appeals were like, there's no way you're not going to get out. We've never seen this. And so going back to America, open county was nothing, but another sweat deal to try to get me to testify against people against the shooter who testified against me in open court. And instead of doing that, I made a scene in that courtroom. I stood up and when I was there almost two years in the most deplorable conditions. And the judge goes, hey, well, we had a status conference how to go and my lawyer at that time, my fifth lawyer, Roger Hanson, he goes, well, you're honor, I go, you're honor, I'd like to execute allocation. I want to address the court by law, they have to let you. And I had a good judge, he was an ex-defense attorney. And he goes, for sure, we'd like to hear about this. And I said, your honor, this is the deal they want me to do. They want me to snitch out the shooters that snitch me out in federal court. And they want me to talk about other people. And here's what happened, your honor. I'm doing 60 years already on this case. He goes, and the judge was like, they don't know any of this. They're just processing people through continuance, he goes, you are, and he looks over, and the prosecutors are like, you're honor, he can't talk about these things. there's ears in the courtroom and he's flipping out the prosecutor Bob shots and Juan Martinez is there the one that did the Jody areas case like I have the biggest violent case prosecutors based off violence in the courtroom against me and He's making a scene of the judge tells basically tells Bob shots. Hey shut up and sit down I'll find you can Sam let him keep going and and I just basically told the judge not to be long-winded that I'll get on the stamp Put my hand on the Bible And I swear to tell the truth and I'll lie like a rug and get everybody off Because you know why your honor and he looked at me kind of could see was like oh really I said and that's not a shot at you Your Honor record But their deal provides that I go do basically a life sense in the feds with a rat jacket and what will happen your honors I'll be in one of them TV rooms with my back to all these guys and that paperwork a land and I'll get slaughtered With homemade knives and it probably won't be a quick death and I'm not doing it and That prosecutor jumps again your honor and that guy Daniel Martin the guy that testified against me his his PI was in the courtroom and I knew it and he was on the run and he basically went out told the guy like hey Keep going they're trying for you like I did everything I could even saving the rats in my case at the end So they ended up dropping the case. No They got so mad That the judge had to fuck stop the court hearing so it was like 13 14 guys would be on the jury box You know in county they take you from all these you're probably 20 a lot of them knew me and they're like wow You know, this is gnarly like like you don't go, you know, and he goes you know I wanted to I want to take mr. Brannon off the chain put him in a holding cell and I do all these other cases I want to see the prosecution the defense in my chambers As soon as we're done here when I went in there That prosecutor was hot. He was pissed and I just looked at him and smiled because I have nothing to lose. I have a life sentence And I went in there and we argued back and forth and the judge goes mr. Brannon He told he goes mr. Schatz. He goes this guy's gonna ruin your case like You don't want him here. He's not going because he's an ex-defense attorney and I go He goes mr. Brannon. What will you take and I go my lawyer speaks up? Yeah, what and Bob Schatz goes? 15 years and I go fuck your 15 and I go in your fire dude because my lawyer's going along with it I go your fucking fire and he goes wow mr. Brannon, what will you take I go eight years running concurrently with my federal sense I have a life sentence your honor. What's the difference and I'm knowing I'm gonna win this somehow and some appeal And he made them give me that eight years I signed that plea and I got out of there after two years, but you still serve your fed time You know you got even though you know this the fed time eight up that eight years. It's running concurrent with my state I mean the fed time the states running concurrent with my federal time So I just ate it alive once I had like another eight years in or six. Yeah, I finished that right But I'm saying you never serve time besides Maricopa County you didn't go to an Arizona state prison No, because that case was adjudicated I signed a plea at the state charges went back to the fed and continued doing my 60 and You know about six years later. Hey, you've terminated your state case cool, right and what's what's poetic justice is that Once I overturn the shooting in the state and once they gave me that I mean I overturned the shooting in the feds and once they gave me that state plea and I ate that eight years up at my federal time once I overturned my federal shooting Against the prosecutor. I didn't I didn't do a day for that shooting now one and that's karma Right, but I'm not you know laughing at them, but you know what fuck you. You know that lady was was a piece of shit You know and the thing she did and I'm gonna tell you years after that. I'm getting letters There's a book in prison that went around like a biblical thing It's called rescue not arrested and that was one of the guys that benefited out of her retiring being retired And that's all so she is for the people didn't see the episode Billy Rosen and that prosecutor was so harsh given so much time to people for Miniscule charges Laughing in their family's face when they're crying in the courtroom. She was evil guys were right me and go You know, I want to thank you. I had a 15 year plea as soon as I got switched prosecutors when she got retired When Billy Rosen was off my case. I got a three year plea that guy that wrote rescued and arrested says the same thing You can find that book talks all about me all about my case and how I saved his life He was looking at 12 years gave him to soon. She got off the case, and I mean And who knows how many countless others hadn't written me. I mean by the way He got off all those cases because my guest Mark tried to have her killed Some gangster shit. So we want to hear about the feds now Tell us about the bidding Were you immediately thrown into You know gang life or did it kind of is that kind of something that just Naturally Absorbed you as the years went on. I mean, I don't want to say absorb because I'm never going to admit that I'm in any gang I mean, I've told you on the last show I've been validated as Aryan brotherhood since 13 They know political ink on me, right? You know, that's all I'll say, but this is the thing when I first got there An outwater. There's no there's no disruptive groups allowed it out water. There's no M.A. There's no Aryan brotherhood at that time the black gorilla the BGF wasn't allowed there They were the three listed be disruptive groups. So there it would be like whatever white guy could be a skin headache It could just be some guy that's put a lot of work. There was sack there. There was a lot of violent dudes there You know, they'd they'd elect somebody to run the yard, you know, whatever and but you know I was there and Saw a bunch of stuff saw a bunch of violence got involved in some violence, but Once I got back from my two-year stay in Maricopa County I remember I only did four or five months I immediately put in for a transfer down to Victorville because Outwater is so in the middle of nowhere is so up north like it was just in a bad area Like my wife came to visit me one time and some fucking gang bangers caught up on her Carful of dudes and there's some blacks whatever probably at Oakland and hey, hey, baby come here man Come here like trying to guerrilla paper trying to grab her or a car like they do up there alive and turn them into prostitutes and drug them up and tell them they're gonna kill their families they walk the street I mean, it was like that. It was like gnarly like she ran into the hotel called the front desk called the cops They're beating on the door. I mean, I'm like you're never gonna come fucking visit me here ever again I was fucking incensed. I was like so mad and look I mean for the record look There's good black people. There's bad. There's good white. There's I'm not a blanket like rats Just happened to be who tried to do that tour and that area is prevalent for that type of shit And so I got moved down to Victorville after another six months there on a hardship transfer because I was exactly over 500 miles from where my residence was that's how you get moved So I moved down to Victorville now I'm in a real gnarly like there's like six area in brotherhood five six Mexican mafia There's three hundred fifty four hundred serenials. There's like two fifty three hundred white guys Like you'll never see a yard stack like this the bloods the crypts and I get along with them. Do's real good I got friends and you know, I get along more with the with the with the west coast Sets because they're more rigid and they're more Strict about the things you do and don't do in prison that some of the east coast stuff like a lot of the DC cases are state cases They don't have they don't have a state prison that Morton's closed and and so you will get a lot of people from there with like rate charges and And they're fucking animals. You know, I mean some of them are good people, but a lot of them are running them up You know, I mean like if a rapist comes on a yard with us or Or any of the west coast sets black white Mexican. I mean we slaughter that rapist. We slaughter that child molester We we put that in and and so I would like to say that we run on a good set of morals The audience wise. Oh, well, that's a violent well every sex offenders should be slaughtered or castrated There's no helping people like that And I was a big fan of it and I'm a big fan of putting in work on them and I have and it's like I've heard that same thing about people who've been in Victorville specifically They always talk about how the west coast sets were much more rigid politically. No, yeah, it's it's it's really It was it was such a And I opened her to be there, you know, and at that time there was there was a couple big homies that I really liked a big mark A nightquist. He's dead now He was Aaron brother had been around forever been through all the Brandon diamonds and stuff And you know, he was murdered when he got out for Some things I heard about can't talk about but but he was a guy that kind of mentored me, you know, and you know and you know and kind of showed me the ropes and You know, you get there you put in your work I mean, I wasn't even out of my khakis and boots two days. Hey, we need a guy in this you know hit I got it, you know, because I'm down kind of mad, you know, I know I've got a 60-year sentence I know I haven't won any of my appeals and I'm just like, you know I'm gonna put it down and they tell that you're you got brolic like you're a big guy already When you went in, but could they tell you that oh this guy My my case is like a gold card Anyone that goes after a prosecutor and goes after the rats and had a cartel case and yeah And I got the attempted murder in the case for you know Just destroying this guy in a nightclub, and they're like yeah, I mean here's who I am, you know I mean look I mean the first time I actually put in that knife work. I ain't go lie like it's it's different You know when you go on a cell 8 by 10 whatever and you know each guy has a knife. It's heavy combat. You know, you're in a riot. It's flying all around you I mean, I've seen. And been involved in some stuff that like it stays with you, you know, but you have to do it. And it's the movie shot color was pretty accurate. Rick Wad did it. It's a good, good movie. Let's get asked you about that. It's funny because one of the lieutenants in Canaan right before I got released was like, hey, Brandon, you got to watch this movie shot color that you, you know, like I was that will really, all right. Well, but it ended up being a good movie. I don't think the killing in the end could have been done like that. Any shoe program, but they made it like he had so much pull because I mean, you like a gardener cage and the whole fucking prison is coming, you know, you know, how he does it at the end, but the rest of the movie was good. It was accurate. It was well done, you know, you said the second day you had to go into somebody's cell. Did you just smash them out? Was it a removal? I moved on a guy. I had a knife on me. I just use hands and he was asked to show up on the fence line to speak to somebody's avoiding dads. He's staying in a cell. It was kind of gnarly, you know, it was that I didn't put the knife work in that day, but I had it with me and, you know, just whipped him off the bunk and just, you know, stomped on him and submitted him out and said, hey, man, you got to go out of, we're going to take this to another level and he came out and they were impressed, you know, because he wasn't a small guy. And I went in with someone, his cell, he just stayed on the top bunk. It's gnarly because you're going to sell and the guys like, like we didn't even let people sleep in the daytime ever. So I went in there really early right after breakfast and this dude is, he's in the bed without his shoes on. So you got caught, man, you know, he's horrible. Yeah. And I knew where he kept his knife. So we immediately grabbed it. It was right in the rail. It was bad. The first thing I did rolled up and then went in, but after that, it's like, you know, I, you don't have altercations. I could be amazing. How some guys would like call you out now. Do something like it. First person to show, I played a lot of sports. I played basketball, I'm a good athlete, I'm good at all sports like and it was, it was, uh, you getting a lot of situations when you're playing ball and that's where a lot of my stuff happened. And in the unit, you know, like you'll carry it in and people be like, yeah, man, like if the dude calls you a punk or a bitch, you know, it's like you're picking up a knife. And the first time I happened, you know, it was pretty gnarly. It was kind of like a guy who was gang affiliated. I wasn't at over television. Yeah. He thought he was just going to come in and change the TV and, you know, and but back then you could go in a cell, handle your business and the big homie at that time when you would go in there and this guy was leaking good, you know, we went in with knives and I was able to really secure his first shot and get on him. So I had limited damage for him shot. Um, but he had massive damage and and so they run a bunch of guys through the room. That's the trick. One guy will go in, check out him. I went in first, then obviously when I came out, he's already in there bleeding and next guy will go in another guy. So now you got three guys going in out of there besides me and and there's plausible doubt and every one of them held their mug. I don't know. I didn't see that. I don't know. And they and the cops just kind of let us do it. It was so violent there and it was almost, but there was a reason the administration was letting it happen though the AW got indicted, the captain, a Holland check born and these guys were indicted for letting us do their thing like they've hand fed us sex offenders and which is a beautiful thing. All props to them. Can you go into any detail about that? Um, like how would they let sex offenders ever get close to being inside a Victorville? This is what a guy has a case where he's raping his 10 year old daughter Kenneth Freeman's one of them and it's the highest film volume on the internet and he's raping his 10 year old daughter while his wife is watching it and filming it and and he's an ex cop and I call he was a cop that many he walked in and being healthy dude and and then when he went to his tough guy talk of the lieutenant's office captain, all of them, they, this is what they do. This is how they rock him to sleep and all props to them. I wasn't in the office. I don't know they did it, but I know they did it. Hey man, you got a fucking naughty case, you know, that's not a cool case. Just, but you know, if you don't want to get transferred, you can walk the line. Just don't talk about your case. Just tell him you got a gun case like knowing we're going to run him immediately. We run everybody immediately. You come in our unit. If I got the unit or whoever has it or the yard, you're a white boy, give me your paperwork and we're running you good. We have websites that can find everything out down to your Juvie record. You just have somebody on the outside, you give them a call and say, hey, there's tricks. Yeah. There's other tricks that are way smoother than that. Yeah. You know, somebody on the inside perhaps we just got some tricks. I mean, I just want to love to give up. It was easy the way I did him and I actually was the one that did him and found out. So it's easy. How long does it take to run somebody? Shit. As long as the mail goes, you just got to have your codes and everything, right? It's simple stuff. It's like a week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you ran this guy Kenneth Freeman. I can't believe I've never heard of that case. It's so child sex rape as you can find him all over the place, Kylie Freeman, his daughter. He raped her ex-cop and filmed it. He lived in Thailand, the creep show, capital of the world. Yeah. He's just come back. Were you the first person to find out who he was? Yeah. What did that feel like? So rewarding. Yeah. No, there's been a bunch. I mean, I hear my like the name because, you know, Kylie, if you ever see these interviews, I'm so sorry for what happened to you, you know, like these people do to children, especially since I lost my only son, like I'm a real advocate, you know, and that sucks too. You know, I got a felony or a few and some of my stuff is violent, but you know what? There's no better person. You could leave your children with in your home with $1 million in cash, a bag of diamonds, and come back in a week and all your money and your diamonds are going to be there and your kids are going to be happier than they've ever been with anybody besides their parents. And it's like, man, there's just rules and morals. We got to follow in this world. Totally. And I don't believe sex offenders can be fixed. I know they have the chemical castration thing, you know, I think it should be taken off with a saw. They should, you know, once they get out, it's like, because if you leave them with their play toy, they're never going to stop. They're sick. And so, you know, but the good thing is doing the high level time. We don't get that many, like they'll let them slip through because they know they're going to get butchered. And I could tell you this, that dude ended up living, it was a miracle and there's a couple others, but I don't want to keep them. They're what happened to him. He got stabbed. He got his brains kicked out. He had about nine knife wounds in him, got his fucking skull smashed, his brains were literally all over the floor, look like gray matter. Survive that? Yeah, he's a vegetable. Even better. Yeah, he's an FCI. He's not a USP2 son now, the height away yard, sex offenders yard, but now it's changed. Now the feds have changed, and it's not changed for the better. It's kind of like in the state, you got the 50, 50 yards. Now in the feds, like almost every medium, FCI, Phoenix, FCI, Phoenix, FCI, Sheridan, Inglewood, Colorado. As we're Jared from Subway went, like you've got these guys, these Caucasians, I don't even call them white because when you take a yard and you walk with these dudes and you don't make a move on them, you're as bad as they are. And I'm talking about, they have to sign a paper now on these mixed yards. And the paper says, I will not, I will agree not to assault the sex offenders based on their charges, or I will face five years under USC blah, blah, blah, blah, the special law. They have to project sex offenders. And these dudes are just signing the paper, walking around with, you know, and it's like, you know, I had a cancer scare when I was in the halfway house. And when I was in the halfway house in LA, I was with a good friend of mine, I was just JJ Kid and I thought I had cancer, I had a 27 pound weight loss, something went nuts in my body. It never really was determined, you know, we're running every test from HIV to cancer to everything. And when I'm waiting for the results, I told my good friend, he was a youngster from Delmar, I said, you know, what's that? I said, if I come back with a shit with anything, I mean, I don't fuck punks, I don't know how to get AIDS. So I knew I didn't have that, but they have to run everything. And I said, if it comes back positive, I said, I'm just going to tell you what, Daddy, get the hell out of here. And I'm a slaughter of these six sex offenders that are in there with us. And there were some guys in that I've never had to live anywhere near them. Anyone that's ever hit the yard, it was like, everyone's got their hand raised, the deal with them. Let me get that one. You know, it's like a, it's a real badge of honor to get those dudes, you know? So, but it wasn't just sex offenders. It was also people of violence, rats, dudes that make violations for whatever reason. There's so many reasons. It's not even funny. You know, you're living in such a rigid society now. It's like, you know, it's so like, it's, it's, it's ever so many stabbings in Victorville when I was there. It's like every, I'd say three days a week, four days a week, you're going to Chow and I'll say, boom, boom, boom, the tower's going off, the grenades are coming out and you just turn and there's like two or three guys on a guy or multiple guys getting down with big ass knives. And, you know, people are getting hit all the time and you can see it, you can feel it. And you walk down the sidewalk and all the sudden, dudes are lined up against the fence and you immediately know it, you're like, oh, someone's going to get hit. It's in the air and you see it because everyone, you know, these look you lose. they want. And then also there's guys that are there for backup. Just in case it doesn't go the way it's supposed to go. And you could walk through like a tunnel of tension and then you just kind of won't mosey down the sidewalk and kind of look back, look back all of a sudden you just hear it and it's amazing how many times the guy that's getting to get it doesn't know it's coming. It's incredible. Like a yeah, it was kind of normal. Yeah. And the way we've heard that from a friend of ours has been on the show. Black guy, we're bit it in Victorville and he said the whites there. They will come up to you, right? Maybe the guy who had the yard would come up to all, you know, just stay away from the Saturday. Yeah, or you might want to go get your shower. Yeah. Because on Thursday, it's going down and the guy who's getting stabbed is right there. Well, see, but even knowing. And some guys would do that and say, we as a whole rule would never notify anybody, but the big homie of their set or the one who has the keys very shortly before it goes down. Like we've I've had to walk up to guys like the Soranios, those are my brothers, you know, I mean, I'm really close with them and the Mexicans, the islanders, natives, like I'm close to those three sets really close. You know, and, you know, I just get along with them, you know, and we've backed each other up in many, many wars. And so there's times when I've just walked from the our table and leaned at the head of the Soranios table and said, Hey, man, you guys, hey, just this something's going to pop here, ma'am. Don't please try to stay a little bit away and be ready to move, you know, because we may be hitting a guy to our table. And if it starts, I don't want you to think it's coming at you because if some goes on in your back, you turn. Like when I got hit right here in the face, they moved on me another set because of something one of my friends did at another yard side of their leader. They hit me right in Canaan when the tables were so close and you literally got to walk sideways and that natives were right behind me. And when they moved on me, I was the only time I've ever been moved out of my career. And it wasn't for something I did. It was payback just because I'm West Coast, whatever they say I am. And one of them wrapped his hat, one of them hit me in the face and I'm stuck in the table surrounded by guys that I really don't know because I've been disciplined and sent all the way out there away from any of my bros from the West Coast because we ended the career of one of their SIS rats, you know, that we discovered that I discovered. Right. Right. Got the case where the guy got decapitated. No, this was just a guy that we had hit over in Lee County. Okay. And so they immediately sent me to Canaan, which is almost in New York and I'm from California and there's not, there's really no bros on the yard and I don't have a big, we usually I have a West Coast car. And when I'm moving around, you know, there's a small pack of us. We move like a platoon, but and this particular day I just got there. This guy, you know, made these hollow threats. All we're going to get this dude or the independent car like, come on man, you don't separate gang members independent for guys are good guys are good guy. Most of my friends are gang members. And so they they ran up on me with a knife, one of them, and actually a street box cutter. And you can see the scar from here to here stuck in my, and my job, the one guy wraps his hand around, started hitting me the box cutter and the other guy punched me, but I immediately got risk control on the weapon because that guy wouldn't have punched me and moved me here to slip my throat. I would be dead because I'd have bled out, but it bled like a motherfucker, but, but you don't even feel it. I mean, it feels like just, you know, but I mean, I've been in, you know, I've had it. I've got moved on, but you know, kudos to me. Why do I secure the weapon and flip the guy right on the natives table? Because they're right behind me. Why would they fucking pass? They're like, you did that shit like that child hall right there is not the place to do it because they have different races real close. It's the closest child hall tables anywhere. And you have to use common sense in there. You have to like, if you're going to do a hit, like in for real for real, it was staff date. And there was 15, 20 people from the regular CEOs to the wardens in there. And you hit me 10 feet from them. Right. Right. So it's like, why did it's someone call it a PC move? It's kind of a PC, but I'm not going to sit here and throw shade on them. I give them credit for making a move so bold, you know, because there was a war after that. But yeah, so would you guys do something is you talked about hitting one of your own, like in Victorville, hitting one of your own at your table? You talking about your day room table? No, you're a child table. You would do that at child? Some guys would, yeah. The child hall people don't know is a very, it's a crazy place because when something really jumps there, they're going to shut them doors when it gets to be too big. Well, think about it. There's so many weapons in there. All the oven racks have rods. You can make so much. I became a master. I've been able to take a black metal clip, the ones you buy in paper with melted into a roll on deodorant or a toothbrush. And you can just saw out bonks. You can, you know, because it's, you know, anything, it's the hardest steel, you know, steel cuts through iron. But, you know, you can get through a lot of stuff. And then there's a lot of weapons there. It's a dangerous place like unlike the state. There's no catwalks in the child hall. There's no places for them to shoot down on you. If they seal the place up, it's going hard, you know, and, and, and, and, and it's, uh, what do you mean? What do you mean by that? Well, because they have gun, they have gun, gun walks in the heavy and the higher level states. I mean, they're over you with a, with like, well, now with probably an M4 carbine, but back then, you know, with the mini 14s and, and whatever, and only on the yard to towers. So they won't, can't stop it if it's at the chow and you want to, they're only going to come in the units with non-lethal. Anyway, they're going to come in with grenade launchers and, you know, concussion grenades and bean bags and mace. And I don't know why, but I've always had a really good ability to eat mace. I mean, I started one of the gnarliest riots in Lewisburg. They were miss treating us all. And, uh, me and my celly, Jimmy Hodg, they would took a good independent due name, Jimmy, uh, they my, um, Jamie Lee. And he had the keys to like, his, his Virginia guys and a lot of the guys that were not affiliated, you know, but I never wanted the division between the gangs in the world. We're all wiped. Let's just get along, you know, but anyway, they treated him bad. And the cops, they had taken the razor from us because a lot of the blacks had gone out there and just literally, I mean, if you've ever seen a guy get sliced by two guys that have razors melted in toothbrushes, their whole face off, their eyes, it's one of the gnarliest things you'll ever see. And they're kind of known for that. Yeah, they come in with them razor blades, man, and they're vicious and they're dangerous. Look, them, those are dangerous. I give them their credit like, but the way they do it. So anyway, they were doing hits in the wreck cages. And you're on the smooth program. You're cuffed everywhere you go and level one and two. And then when you graduate, you go to three, four and you're out of your cusp, but you're still in the hole and you get an hour out here and there. Anyway, so they sliced so many people up in the wreck cages. They took the razors and then there's a bunch of tension and we're like, fuck you. They're trying to make the white shoes magic shave. That stuff burns our skin like acid. We're not made for that, you know, and so we're all growing beards. You can use it on your head, but when you put it on your face, it's fucking gnarly. And so everyone was bucking and writing grievances and stuff. And this one guy just, he called home and he probably should know of and he said, Hey, you know, don't come visit me. You know, some patrol tents around here. And so as soon as the cops hear that in the recording room, they're like, they come to get them. Come out of your cell. We're going to talk to you. Okay. Okay. I'll bring my cell. You know, you're coming alone. And he did what he's supposed to do. He refused. No, I'm not coming alone. Because we don't talk to the cops by herself. There are some races that do. We don't. And they end up ruffing them off, taking them out of there and putting them in a holding cell. And I just looked out the window and yelled to him, Jamie Lee, what you where you at? And he goes, I'm in the hall. I'm in the iron cell. I'm in the strip cell, the metal cell front, black boxed. And they're putting his food up on the bonkery. Can't even reach it. And so I, you know, that on the ranch, we're going to board out and let's show him how we do it. You know, and I went and about 70 wide dudes went with me, not only in that block, but in the one next door. That place was roasted man. They couldn't even see. There was so much smoke. It just went hard. Okay. When you say board up, you mean cover your window and get you right. And I was the first cell they came to. So, you know, I was like packing my shit and but it was a good demonstration, you know. So then the doors pop, the, the riot cops go in or the regular screws? No, fuck no. These guys are a sort team SRT. They're coming in with turtle suits, full body armor helmets, goggles, mask, air mask, because they're flooding you with gas. And, you know, I say this, you know, because I have my websites and and one of the screws from there, one of the CEOs got sick, except him. Hey, Brandon, what's up? This is so and so, man, I remember I was in Louisville. I do remember him. He goes, man, we all respected you, man. That was a hell of a demo you put down that day. And I like, it's cool, because they respect it when someone stands up for themselves, you know, like, and it was wrong, you know, what they did, but then again, I understand. I mean, like, like, like, where there's rules in there, like, don't stash your knives in the laundry room. Well, every, every, always some idiots going to do it. We didn't have washers and dryers the last eight years I was in. Get a hand, wash your clothes, or send it down to laundry and then cards and wash it with these fucking nasty ass dudes and never wash themselves or their clothes. And it's like, I don't want my clothes in the same, you know, and it's like, now my hands are tore up from just ringing clothes and washing them by hand. It's just prison, like I said, integrating the sex offenders. There's a lot of stuff, man, that's changed. So the door is plop. And And then you guys are all fighting the cops and they take you down. They come to your cell, cuff up, cuff up. There's a whole gang of dudes with gas masks. You refuse in a cuff up. Yeah. They finally push your port open. You can fight them and push the little tray port, but they're going to get in. They got like a door buster and they got a hose and they just start flooding your shell with, with, with, you know, pepper spray. And then they fucking hit it, concussion grenade in there and then fuckers are gnarly and Lewisburg got small cells like this scar right here is from the grenade hit me in the arm. I've, I've had a bunch of those like, and you're in there. You get your mattress. It's barbaric and you, you tie a sheet around it and you got a shield and, and that, but we made them do every cell and it took all day like they called the National Guard, you know, because they ran out of shit to shoot at us. It was, it was a good one. But I like to think that that's a, you know, that was my thing is I want to do what's good for everybody. You know, I want to stand up just like I am out here, you know, I mean, it's like I want to stand up for the underdog, you know, my mission isn't to be cat and save everybody, you know, but I mean, I want to always do what's right, you know, and tyranny is gnarly, tyranny is evident through the B.O.P. the mistreatment. Nothing gets me angrier whether you know, you're looking at the federal government going to war against the wishes of the people down to the mistreatment of prisoners. Nothing gets me angrier than tyranny. Yeah. It's the most intense form of violence, even when it's not done in physical ways, like the way that you were basically railroaded to prison through all these illegal acts from the prosecution. Like that's, yeah, it's the most anti-American thing I can think of. There's a book about Arizona called Down and Dirty Justice and it talks about so many corrupt people and many of them were involved in my case and it's, you know, it's brought up but not fixed. Did you ever fight? You mentioned me off camera that you got down with some cops. Would you, would you fist fight cops? I mean, if they fucking disrespect you, yeah, I mean, you go hard, I mean, we're fighting them every time they're extracting us, you're doing everything. You're kicking an elbow and grabbing their helmets and pulling them in like bumpers done some good demos when you had a, that's my boy Gary Dodson, yeah, I always do. Yeah, I'm asked my dude, he's funny, he's, he's a dangerous one too, he's, he's about to business. Yeah. But you, I, I thought you would like, I thought cops would, if they were pissed off out of you, say it, meet me in the other room, the old days you could do that. In the old days, I would say, okay, out water, there were some gangster cops that would let you get a fare when I had a, yeah, no question. And, you know, and, and Invictorville, there was, but you know, once, you know, region finds out, you know, all you guys are doing this and that, like it, it's completely changed. And here's the messed up thing is, like I did 11 years in isolation. I mean, sometimes I'd ever sell it, sometimes I would, and I was in the whole lot, you know, and out of my 22, I did about half of it locked down. But there's always yard lockdowns now, like towards the last couple of years of my bid, here's their trick. Oh, we're short of staff. We're going to lock you guys down, short of staff. And then two guys get off on each other in a cell and 30 cops run in the unit. I'm like, they're all in the back watching TV eating food, you know, like they just, they don't want us out. They split every major penitentiary. They've split in half now. You don't even interact with the other side. Therefore you're not getting as much wreck, like you're not getting as much yard time because it takes so long to, to unload each unit one by one on that side, put them all back, wait, and then unload all you went. And within the day, anything can happen that causes a lock down, like it's in the old days, the guns would go off, the grenades would come out of the tower, the warning shots. And two dudes would be getting down on one dude, stabbing the fuck out of them on the sidewalk. He's leaking everywhere. Everyone would take a knee, stay where they're at, back up from the incident. They would load the guy off on a gurney. Business is usual. Continue. The deuces go off, meaning the sirens. As soon as, whether you're in the unit or anywhere, the whole prison is locked down, everyone to themselves. Now, now, now. And it's like another reason, like every little way they do it is to just give you less time out of your cell and in the hole, which we call the shoe, SHU Special Housing Unit, they're supposed to give you one hour a day, five days a week. I've never been in a hole that ever, ever towards the end of my bid, ever honored that. And there's a reason that you're supposed to be let out. Because dudes go crazy, they commit suicide, they, you know, it's, it's, it's just the mental part of it. You know, you got to be tough, man, like when I, all the whole time I did, I programmed, I got up every morning, got my food, you know, went to the table, ate it, went to my bed, sat down, digested, read a couple chapters, got up, did yoga, stretched, and worked out. And then get done shower, some cells have showers in them. Some you got a shower in the sink, so you can get out to the shower. And when I'm out here now, and I remember back, like how much time I did in those small spaces, and look, I got bros that done 33 years, like in the whole Tommy Silverstein legendary killer. Why, dude, maybe monster killed a cop at, at Marion, the old Supermax, got out of his cuffs, the name officer cluds. This guy was like a cop on the green mile that killed the guy's mouse, PC shit, fucked with the wrong dude. Man, that dude just slaughtered him, but he ended up doing 33 years in the whole. I think Atlanta, they built like a dungeon cell when it used to be a USP, and they had flood lights. They had a glass front and flood lights in his face for five years. No darkness. I don't know, man, the human mind and body is an amazing thing, like you learn that. You learn that quick and start with the mind. You have to decide, I mean, they're going to break or not. Yeah. I read 900 books when I was in there a lot of counter to I'm just estimating, but yeah, and I know man that have read more and, you know, I used to immerse myself in a historical fix in the Genghis Khan story, it was gnarly. You know, the Saxon tales about the Vikings, Saxons, and the, you know, the English fighting. You know, all those kind of books, the story of Julius Caesar, the Roman Empire, and things like that. I would immerse myself in books like that of war, because they're out in the middle of nowhere, and they're on these gnarly, like walks, hikes, marches. And they're, you know, in the wilderness, Genghis Khan, you know, they were really good with the hawks, the Falkeneers, and, you know, the Romans, you know, they marched forever, you know, and even the Greeks, you know, like, you know, 300, the movie and, you know, and the Vikings, that's my culture, you know, I'm Irish, Norwegian, you know, and, you know, it's just amazing. And I get seasick, that sucks, because I would never have made it out there and I say, well, I can sit in a water and surf all day, but if I get on a boat, I'm screwed, but that's how I did it. Yeah. Yeah. Like you would be good at prison, you're just a dead, you, I mean, you've kind of always been this obsessed, active person from your early days surfing and getting a fight and why, I broke out. I tried to avoid fights, but every time I was young, you know, if you go into a club and you got the bag of Coke and you got your looks and you're driving a badass car and you're taking the bitches, dude, they're just haters, you know, like, I never, ever, ever have, like, I can't remember. I started a fight. Everyone, maybe in the water, like if someone cuts me off on my own break or, but they started it. Oh no, jump right on and get him, you know, but I was always kind of an enforcer in the water. That was surfers or tough, man, I'm worried about sharks, dude, I'm not, I don't know, man, I've seen him. I've been bumped into by him. Great whites. Well, that's what they have. I mean, I was in Fort Los Gendito and I snapped my leash on a 15 foot day, which is the Mexican pipeline. It's all the way down in portals down there in their wahakas right before you go to Central America. It's like a legendary big way, but long story short, I stabbed my board in half and you got it. You're on the impact zone. I got half my board and a leash on my leg, but the other half's gone. And now you either go in, but that's, there's huge sense. I tried to get out and I did and I got on a half a board. I made it out. And then I got sucked in a rip current right out in front of the fish factory where they chop up fish guts in a go. I got swept about a half a mile down shore and then fuckers were bumping in. I'm talking hammerheads. I don't know what, I mean, I saw the hammerheads. But I was just like, oh my God, I'm going to die. Man, I'm like, fuck, I'm just looking at this guy waiting for that bite. But they got so much other food there in the sharks, you know, they're, they're, they taste where sushi tastes better than humans, you know, so would you ever be in the hole in the shoe, lock the fuck down, look at the ceiling, thinking so far from that moment. Like when I was in prison, I would just, like, I would think back to the old days when I would be like in Argentina looking at the sunrise, you know, on wherever I was at, whatever part of the country I was visiting. And now I'm in this, this fucking dungeon of a prison in Eastern Oregon in the hole. Looking at the ceiling, thinking, did that ever really happen? I'm so far, I'm so far away. It was like a dream. Would you ever like think about those moments in the hole like when you were surfing? Yeah, I'd replay a lot of moments, you know, in my life, a lot with my child and a lot with surfing and partying and, you know, I remember the relationships I had with various women I had in my life that I valued. but mostly like thinking about my parents, my son, my wife, the closest people to me, and the times I had and I'm really close to my family. So, you know. - When did you say you did 11 years in the hole? Was that straight? - No, it would be like two here, one here and two here or one here, six months, six months here. - What did you catch the long shots for? The two year shots. - Haven't too much power of violence. - Right. - Can you explain that at all? Because in 23-- - If you have, go ahead. - Sorry, I'm suck at interviewing sometimes. - No, it's me, go ahead. Like in 2013, you got validated for being in the area of brotherhood. But I assume leading up to that, you had already gained a lot of power and that's why you got validated. They don't give that-- - Well, I mean, you can get validated just 'cause you hang out in the circle. I've seen guys get validated just 'cause they unfortunately got sailed up with one of them. So I don't, you know, again, you know, but after 13, after that specific murder, I mean, they had never seen anything like that. Not really. I mean, fuck, I've seen the natives do some gnarly ones. Like, but I've seen everybody that Mexican, everybody's done 'em, but that was particularly gruesome. - What murder is that? - The David Snow murder at 13, that was a validated area of brotherhood guy. I hated 'em, but, you know, and I tried to get him like the week before, I tried to get him. I'd actually called him in a bathroom with a bone crusher, a big ass knife, and he refused to come in there with me. And that's a violation. And I called him various words that he should have come at me with a knife, but he didn't, but-- - What was in that, he didn't, 'cause I wouldn't be here. - What was his violation? - Why did he get hit? - I can't tell you about it. - Really? It's not even public record? - There's a lot of people that, I guess it was a personal issue. I can't talk about anything like that. - Can you describe what the murder was? 'Cause you were there in the prison. - There's 62 stab wounds, allegedly, by two different people. When I did the deposition and told them what really happened, I said it was self-defense. And they attacked one guy, and I don't know what happened after the cell. - Where, what part of the prison did this happen? - 6A, Victorville, and a cell, in the cell house. - They ran into a cell? - I guess, that's where they ended up. But I gave a deposition on that, and I told them what they needed to hear, and what I believed happened, and what it would help those two men to beat their charges. - Right. - And-- - And nobody can say I ever folded, insert some people out there, and you know who the fuck you are. You fucking fold in, you took the bait, and you ruined your career doing it. And you were gonna testify against me, and a bunch of other people, and you never got the fucking chance. And now you gotta look in that mirror, the rest of your life, and hate yourself, because you didn't do what you should have done. That's all that matters in the end. That's all that matters. - You think that if those two dudes had just held their mud, that-- - Oh, and they're both gonna get out now, because see what their trick is, is they wait till you've done a couple decades, like I had, like these men had. And you're almost out. You're about to hit the end of your sentence. They tried that on me with 30 days left, and I've, I looked at them and said, if I guess I'm gonna stay an 80 extra rest of my life. And man, I was sick afterwards, but I don't have a choice. And, but they're almost out. You're almost there, and they say, okay, 'cause the feeling of walking down your date, and then you get right to it, and it's like, well, their words were, hey, Brannon, what are you gonna do the next 20 years of your life? Meaning, we're gonna fucking indict you and give you life. First of all, I'm gonna live more than 20 years. And secondly, I'm doing it right where the fuck I'm at. (laughs) I made true story, right? I mean, it's like, but these other guys, there's two in particular that I won't name, it's like, it's so sad what they did. I was so close to both of them too. - So they folded, but my question was, do you think the murder would have gone unsolved if they had just kept it solid and not talking? - No, it's, I mean, something that grew some, like, they, you know, I mean, guys, cameras everywhere. I mean, it's, I don't care. And you know, like, there was so much blood evidence. Like, it was like, one of the guys came back to my unit. He was a my unit and he'd been flat out so I can talk about it. And he had changed his clothes and got out of there. And he even did a census count. They're like, oh, he's in there sleeping. There's blood from the floor to the ceiling. I just shoved under the bonk. He's, he's getting a little stiff. And the one guy that, he came in the unit with his boots and still blood like, like, it was a good one. But, you know, like I said, the week before he was mine, you know, and I, you know, I was making a name for myself and he bitched up. And I'm glad he did 'cause I wouldn't be here. - Now, when you say you said these, some things to him. - You're a bitch, a punk, get in there. - And so, the rules are you have to, if you're called a bitch or a punk, you have to go see that. - I'm trying to kill you for calling me that. I am, yeah, I'm definitely stabbing you. Like, there's some other sets that are like, "Ah, bitch, what you'd like, you know, they're not white." And they play with the word, but we don't, you know, neither does a lot of other people. I'm not gonna put anybody on blast, but we just have a really rigid, we move like a platoon in their mind. Like, and people recognize it, you know? Like, there goes dangerous motherfuckers in every car, man. There's, I got friends in every race that I respect. So, if you call someone, like, if we know each other, what if you just call me a bitch, but I didn't have any idea, I'm just-- - Like, if you're on the Yarns, okay. If you're on the Yarns, you're running with the whites. Some guy goes, "That man fuck you bitch." And everyone no frees, ones he gonna hit 'em. And you don't do anything, then we're getting you. - Right. - I think we're gonna crush you. We may not stab you, we're gonna crush you. Get ready to you. - You're gonna get ran off. - Yeah. - No matter what. - Yeah. - And it's weird. It almost sounds juvenile. I'm so glad that life's over, but it's not juvenile. It's the rules. And without no rules, there is no structure. And without no structure, other people take advantage of you when it's wartime. Yeah, we're up every morning. Outside your door, shoes on, minute that door opens, or else. - And you say there's no sleeping during the day. Why is that? Because say something pops off in the unit and with another race in your house sleeping and some white guy's getting dusted off. By another race or another car, whatever. And you weren't there. Like, oh, where was he? He's in his bunk. You're next. Yeah, it's serious time, you know. But it's been, it's been, you know. I like to say all I'm tough and it didn't bother me and but everyone around sees the mood swings, the PTSD. I'm trying to ask my PO if I can do the ketamine treatment. You know, ketamine used to be a, you know, it's literally an animal tranquilizer, but they have a new thing out and it works and it's helping people. And I just wanna get it cleared so I don't get a bad drug test because I've read literature on it and it can change. And, you know, I have a really bad problem with this respect. I have a bad problem, road rage. You know, like, I just, I don't smoke. And so in some half it's on the road, I grab a vape, like a flavored vape. And one of my youngs, his T.A.J. left in my car. I'm like, fuck it, guys, an idiot. You know, like it's tough, you know, because, you know, from being in that environment, you cannot show weakness, you cannot back down. And I gotta come to realize that sometimes it's better to just show discretion in the greater part of valor, like I'm gonna give my life away for one guy. Because if I engage, I have to just take it all the way because no, it's an assault. I'm a career criminal at that point. I'm never getting out, so I'm also just whack him and go and run and that way there's no witness. And because it's sad because that's kind of the way. And I'm not beatmite you. I'm just saying this is the reality of it. I'm not gonna just submit and go back. - Do you really live through a war? - And you did that for years. - I'm 10 tours of duty. - 10 tours of duty. - That's what my dad always says, he's so cool. He's such a beast. He's just like that. And boy, you do like 10 tours of duty. Man, that's amazing. - Today, when they would come visit you, did they know what you were living through? What did you try to do? - Some stuff, you don't share, you know, you just can't, you know, everything's cool. You know, like, you know, my son especially, I mean, when he would come there, I'd just, I had the best visits with him. And, you know, when I went in, he was eight, I had full custody at the time. And he was taken from me when he was 21 to gun violence. - So sorry. - Yeah, and I was in the hole, as always, at Big Sandy Penitentiary. And when I received the news, I was shackled up with double everything, black box. And I thought one of my parents, passed and when they got in Lieutenant's office they told me who it was and I've not gotten through talking about it on a couple and but I've learned now it's like I'm good you know I'm not I'm more stuff that lives within me but I do stuff in his honor and he was a good kid man he worked with autistic kids when he was eight like who does that you know like he had such as a sense of right he didn't even cost he was like martial arts respectful humble a really nice kid his name is Tyler yes sorry yeah I was and the wrong guy was shot the the little deranged shooter was there to shoot his cousin what happened was it overlay it was over a fist fight were four of the Asian kids jumped on his cousin and Tyler ran around in the corner and just helped his cousin he was getting jumped and it was just a fistfight nothing crazy and then four years later on Christmas Eve they showed up at his cousin's house to kill him on a gang initiation and Tyler had come back because they had raised him and so he you know we took care of financial responsibilities but they raised him and they did a good job and and he lived with his cousins and his aunt uncle and and Vista and they came there that night to shoot his cousin and and when Tyler walked out he's like that'll do and so it's something that I have nightmares about something I you know like you could take a lot of stuff and you can have done a lot of crazy shit but when someone takes an innocent child that was yours it's everybody that's lost a child where is it you know I can't even imagine it makes me almost not what I have kids yeah you know they say love hurts man yeah that's a I wanted to have a kid when I got home you know so bad I want to carry on my he was a last living boy and but I want to carry on our bloodline and you know I'm just getting old to do that you know I don't want to pull a Robert De Niro have a kid when I order to have a geno fucking kid when you're 80 you know come on man I mean I'm pretty fit you know I mean I do you're a young 62 no I mean and that's what I'm that's what my marketing thing is now I've been approached by the largest provider of peptides weight loss legal testosterone all that stuff I mean as a poster child for what can happen you know if you take care of yourself and I was kind of like this you know before but the peptides really helped me heal a lot of stuff yeah my shoulder like I have a torn bicep off the bone like I've just I'm obsessed with working out like six six days a week all the time I used to log all my workouts it was funny I'd be in the hole and dudes would be across the hall and they look out if I remember this black dude and I'll do an imitation not to be right he'd be like and that's your day go up I mean my box they're sweaty what's all who's that man Ricky man fuck man everywhere I go you in the home and you're working all day man he's like I'm just laughing yeah but it's just yeah yeah he's just they called you day go mark day go D.A.G.O. Yeah day go like an Italian no day go as a day no day go as in we took the I.E. out of the A.G.O. like a set trip I'm from the coast yeah they're from the I.E. but I got bros from everywhere but so like such a square San Diego yeah no yeah but Dago it's just an old joke like Dago is kind of a slang for San Diego where you from I'm from Dago yeah no I'm not Italian okay uh yeah I mean you look great and I think you should have a kid dude I think you should do it I mean look or meet a girl that has a kid that I can help raise sure I could happen to let it fly man I just love being in a kid's life in a positive way I love I love teaching them things like you know how to play a sport or just how to fix something or you know and and and I really want to get to the point where I have impact you know I have a lot of stories to tell and I have a lot of positive messages for kids and and my my credibility is is real you know I've been through it and look there's a whole bunch other guys been through time like I have but I mean it's like it's just crazy with the case the way it happened the way I wanted like fighting the law with no lawyers now winning and you know my thirst to go home to see my family and to see my loved ones it well just aside from winning your appeal in the feds which is very rare to begin with yeah the fact that you never got one of your assaults or your acts of violence in prison shot over to the US attorney and I had three referrals okay when you have a life sentence pretty much they don't pick a mob I've had FBI referrals okay yeah well a lot of times they'll you know they'll they'll they'll refer I mean if they go fuck this guy's got 35 years left and he's and he's 42 you know they're like for what's the point it's just wasting time man they I bet they wish they pulled one of them on me now for sure because I would have to do that after the sentence right trust me bumper bumpers had some some some some referrals trust me right that's my boy man like it's cool because I get to communicate him with him you know on the internet and we share stories and stuff he's just he's different now like he really is he's really grounded he's he's kind of backed away from a lot of the you know like pretty normal no he is and he's and he's and he's and he's uh yeah he's really come a long ways I'm proud of him now he's one of the guys I could look at online that I know that's kind of visible and I can be like yeah he's legit and he'll say the same thing about me a question about FBI referrals for crimes committed in prison between inmates could they do they have to refer them when you're down or could they refer them thank you refer them later but there's a statute five years to do it right yeah like it got kind of an already like a Beaumont like we always carry knives we always have them on us like everywhere you go person okay yeah I mean it's I mean there might be a few times when you don't have one or you have a floater you have a plexiglass one or you know you can make some gnarly knives out of window right the plexiglass window those things don't break those are just usually forgetting somebody off of you not you know you there's you can make some I mean we hit when the back of the day we're making them out of you know pure stainless steel which doesn't ring in a fucking metal detector aluminum you know like there's ones you can make there's various types but me I prefer you know give me a nice piece of iron or stainless you know I'm not really a pick guy but you can take us like I have one that was a spatula and it had this super gnarly handle on it you know and the spatula handle went into like this high grade stainless handle and then I sharpen that thing and it was this and then we melted a handle on it with plastic and then and you first you wrap this plastic you shit around you melt this handle on it and it just glues to it you got this pick I used to wear that light in my crotch you know right right and um but yeah I mean I've had to keyster a knife I mean that's not easy like maybe it's a short one you know you're gonna get caught with it you either get rid of it or you save it you know I mean that shit I mean you see so you got caught with some knives and sent some some hole shots just for or yeah but if Beaumont if you're under two years and you get caught with one on you they make you go to court and they're going to give you you can plea out and get an extra 18 months or two years or you can go to court and get three or four years right before you get out and man if you're not carrying a knife all the time like there's and you're really risking your life if you're in the game right like I was kind of a pawn on the I mean excuse me I was kind of not a pawn on the chest table I was one of the higher pieces so if something were to happen and and someone wanted to make a statement you know like they would come after me like you would have anybody in an army you want to go out the guy that's ahead of it so speaking of that what was the game the hustle what were you were you hustling in there making money there's everything to control in there there's a lot of things you control from card tables to drugs to booze booze was big man back in the day when there was still sugar at any given time we'd have 30 40 gallons of pruno in the roof stashed or in the wall or in ourselves and you know and then we'd build you know stills like we get an iron electric cord to the wall put it in a bag put it in a bucket heat up the water get it boil in put your booze in there run a run a plastic tube wherever you could get it and run it up into the sink and then you put ice in there and you make pure moonshine and that's stuff so with a lot of money like yeah you can sell it for $50 a soda bottle you know yeah there's money in that in the profit market must be insane yeah it is but it's a hassle I mean it's really hard it's gotten bad now like the stashpots that we usually use are you know the lights you know there's really nowhere you can hide it at the higher level spot right we won't get ingenious and one of my guys was doing the work for the you'd be outside on a crew and he dug this underground pit we had it outside and we just throw some booze anyway on a board over it throw dirt over it let it cook it's got a breather tube come back and get wasted you know it's funny but now it's it's not it's just way harder the visiting room you're not getting drugs and the males copied at the higher yards because a lot of people will break down the drugs and spray them on the paper and reconstitute them or just smoke the paper But the bad pandemic that happened in there was that synthetic marijuana K2 spice. Yeah, it's just it was a very dangerous thing to throw into an environment with dangerous people because people smoke It start having hallucinations and you know a PCP type shit, you know, I just go nuts and start sticking people or Yeah, and we had a rule if you came out and had a quote episode meaning you smoke some and you got out of control You made it for yourself. We smashed you off the yard immediately like yeah, the races some of them will laugh They could do. Yeah, they could do swimming across the day room. It's like that ain't funny. It's a bad look for the whole car You say you got into a couple of wars Can you go into that just just for the day room gets off, you know, different races everyone starts hitting each other Okay, you know, so this is when the race is this is when the rules between the races and the respect break down and it's Or or gangs, you know, other gangs, you know, or you know, the races the race wars are the narliest. Okay. Yeah, that's what kind of what I met everybody's in it What was it over? What were the ones you were in? What was that? It could be like in Arizona. I have one where A certain dude just you know, you had rules. There was a we're only out so long. There's phone line And one guy gets on the phone makes a call He's supposed to hang up go the back of the line. He just double clutches the phone dials again. It was a african american from Chicago and Yeah, from shi town hang out listen well, but you listen now, you know, I mean like First of all, you disrespect everyone and then put your face right next to a box. It's metal So you just run up behind him with an open palm and start it out and let him have it split his whole face opening and get on him I don't care how big you are Like you start out like that. That's the key. Get off first, you know But but it's you know there's so many reasons why it goes it could be someone's too loud It could be someone bumped into someone it could be the smallest things and People might say oh, that's so juvenile is maybe but it's hell of dangerous I'm like like, you know Yeah, dudes will book you I actually understand I've seen a guy get murdered for $20 bill $20 and stamps no killed Several times because it's not the amount of money. It's the fact that you keep walking by me on the sidewalk Not paying me and now it's like you were my bro when you needed whatever I gave you and now you're like ignoring me And you know and and it's just is that a white guy? It could be I've seen it happen in every race people just get tired of you like with me like I'm really weird about that Everyone's all made you want to owe him because I just start gritting. I still do it out here I grit on stuff if I hear something that I don't like it could be anything It could be something it could be at a spew with a good friend of mine or whatever and I feel like he's Disrespected me or played me like I'll stew on it and then about six hours. I'll get on the text and then I'll be like I'm gonna come down and talk to you Because I feel like you know, I need to because you know, I if I'm your friend I'm never gonna do anything shady or sideways with you and I'm always gonna be loyal And honorable I'm not gonna try and You know get over on you or fuck your chick or whatever. You know, I mean, I'm always gonna be a good guy Yeah, lending money and borrowing money can be a dangerous thing in the joint Yeah, more people get booked over debts than almost anything When people get booked in there is it usually within the cars themselves? Yeah, you don't see a lot of people moving across the lines It's usually dealt within the cars when it goes across the lines It's it's definitely like like someone could have a disagreement say a white and a black or on the yard and they just get into it And they know immediately they can stop it the administration with gas and non-lethal or lethal They immediately will go to the unit with whoever's runs the yard for each specific set that got into it And then we'll go out and we'll talk about it and either we'll put it to rest or we won't or you'll fake like you're putting it to Rest and rock them to sleep. That's I've seen people get so rock to sleep before like thinking. They're not gonna get hit No, it's it's okay, man like I understand, you know and then like the old days, you know like they come up Oh, hey, we got a guy in the hole He just transferred and he's asking, you know, can he come out and I and I get so offended by that like I cannot say a guy Can't come out that's being a snitch. I turn on the cop I say let everybody out don't ever ask me that fucking question again Everyone's good to come out like it got to the point where it's like, you know, then there's oh no Mojo's a piece of shit Well, then they let them come out act like a man. Be a man yourself as a matter of fact. Don't snitch on them Let him out and that's another like there's so many ways to take it to another level where You're inviting the violence Did you have to make when you because you have the yard or you have the unit? What is the difference between having the yard and having the unit? Units are designated to guys that the guy who has the yard feels has the mindset the mouth mouthpiece has the Propensity to commit violence that can actually handle that unit But whoever has the yard is the one that really comes down to you But the units need a good rep every unit has to have a rep someone who's level-headed and someone who's good enough to Have dialect with the other people from other races, but yet dangerous enough not to let them get walked over It has to be and if you hear of it happening you got to change out the guy and you may not even discipline him You'd be like, hey man, the way you handle that. I don't like it. You know, that was too soft or Or you're being a tyrant look dude. Just chill. I'll put you on the next mission. You can get that out of your system You know, but don't fucking you know be bulldog and everybody and a lot of people play favorites You know like whenever I'm on a yard and you know, there's all west coast. There's all fog marks here You know, yeah, it's gonna be better and I always tell him yeah, you know, I'm gonna lean towards you But you're fuck up. You know, you're white. He's white. I don't care where they're from. You know, we're all white, you know So the the unit wrap is like the under boss. Yeah, it's like the plaza boss And the guy who's got the yard. Well, that's self-explanatory. He's the shot caller Did you have the yard ever? In many places Was it that must have been a lot of work high stress I was gonna say a lot of work you get tired of it because you're a constant you're the one you can get a yard by being either particularly Dangerous made man from a particular gang or you can get to yard just because the people know that you'll handle it the best It doesn't have to be a gang member could be anybody. I mean, there's look. There's a lot of guys that were smart enough not to join a gang You know that it's fucking cold killers Alan Shelby comes to mind from Oregon One of the most he was in myself when I got the news that my son was murdered And I met him and he got along with him and they mean him just about winning a day room with knives and got down with each other And I can tell you this I'm glad I didn't that dude is skilled. I'm good But that dude is another level and he was like he owned glad. He was my dude man He was on my side, you know and just an amazing Martial artist and I don't mean like dancing around playing Kung Fu dances dude struck so fucking hard and had so many skills hands feet elbows Knife fighting. He was gnarly Everyone knew Alan said he got out after 33 years and I'll be down if he didn't overdose within three months Everybody has an Achilles heel. Yeah, Alan was cool So you're delegating you're making decisions. You're washing beefes escalating beefs. I can say this I I saved prisons from more violence than I caused because I always know like There's a way, you know because there's gonna be a lot of toll, you know, I mean look doesn't mean I'm I was soft I mean, I just this is how we're gonna fix this and it was crazy because with two months to the gate Before I was getting released we had a standoff with the blacks and I was Front and center and people like man, why don't you just rest man go home? We're going to go home and this particular guy got some money sent to him from a particular get white gang member from the other side of the yard It was $500 and when the money was sent for whatever he was buying Obviously something of this hit the black user response was man that money went to my chick man. She just spanned it I can't you do your hit and Like and it's like I think it was the south 30 South. Yeah, and then the word comes to me from another guy from a Another gang and you know, and and he was just like hey, can you deal with this? I'm like 60 90 days to going home and we're in a standoff at the middle of the yard and and I'm basically just tell them look, dude And then when they see us and it's like when you start talking and then they bring some dudes and you bring some dudes and everybody sees it Everybody now. It's uncontrollable. It's like in a rupture and everybody sees the gathering and now there's 30 on 30 and And their conversations going down and and then now with us with me especially now the pseudonyls and the Islanders and the natives are coming around the ones that have Specific cars at that time. It's usually always going to be the serenios, you know, they back me up and because they're you know We back them in certain things and you know and maximum off you but but you know, it's and it's just about to blow up And I just like look man. I'm a 90 days of the gate. You know who I am. You know what I'm about This isn't gonna go away. I mean look now you got 20 of your homeboys here I want to each you put a 30 bucks and pay this man because it's gonna fucking go and it's gonna go hard and and it's so close And they end up taking care of it But I mean it was I remember and that's when I tried to do everything I could man to say stay away from stuff. And then, you know, I mean, five months to the gate. I mean, I had to do something and almost took it too far. And I remember voices stopped, stopped. Mark stopped. You're never gonna go home. He's gonna die. You know, and guy has to stay in a cell for a week. I mean, he was, that was a particular one. Was a younger guy kind of stout. From out of state, just, you know, said the wrong thing. And I didn't want to kill him. I actually went in a cell, put my knife on the bonk and just got busy and showed him, like, hey, yeah, I might be at that point, 59. And you might be above 30. And I just crushed him and-- Yeah, I don't need a knife, but-- When you know-- No, I try to give him every chance. But-- And that was all stemmed from me losing the mouse, man. I had a pet. This is remarkable. This is where my book starts. You know, after five, six years after the death of my son, I needed something. I always had little pets, and I love showing love to little creatures. And this guy in the chow hall, it's a great chapter, I wrote. He comes with a bucket, a little kind of sheasting with three rats. But I didn't let anyone call him rats. I said, this is a mouse. Don't call him nothing else. So I took the three, and I made him this bad ass home out of like a box that bananas came in. Middle, you know, put toilet paper rolls together and cut the ends of socks and made him like a habit trail. And I treated these things like, you know, it was like-- And I had all written on it. And I'm single-celled, always in my house. And I had the box. And I wrote on it in big letters, attention. My pet mouse is in this box. Please do not hurt this creature. Please notify me on shakedowns. They respected that because everybody knew I lost my son. So when these three little pets of mine, you know, they started growing up in their eyes open. I got them when they had their eyes closed. And it was Turbo, Shamrock, and Little. And so Turbo and Little died. I don't know why I was doing like milk and peanut butter. I used to feed them with little droppers. And they died. I think Shamrock killed Turbo because they were both healthy than when they Turbo was dead. And so anyway, Shamrock is my boy, you know, and I got him and he's my pet. And now I've got him trained, you know, like I sleep on the floor because I'm single-celled. And I clean the floor real good and lay my mattress down and Shamrock's in the box, but he now he's bigger. He's bigger, his body's like that. And he's, I've had him for like eight months now, setting out six months. And he can get out of the box, like at 10 o'clock at night, they're nocturnal creatures. He's so I'm letting him out because I'm not going to hear that all night and he's going to get out. And I just hoped I wouldn't step on a marriage room. Imagine that you're asleep. So it's so cute at night. I would fall asleep. I would let him out. I'd block the door with towels and I'd just let him run a run ramp. He would climb everywhere. I had net bags hanging. He could jump on and but every night he would come and I'd have my knee up. He'd want me to put my knee up on the floor and he would run up and down my leg and down to me. But I'd be dead asleep and he would crawl up on me and he would stick his nose in my nose and wake me up gently. It was the most beautiful thing and he was my pet but I equated him to my son because I hadn't had any creatures since him that I could say this is my pet. And I love him and I want to take care of him. And so anyway, I'd have him in the day room and I'd put him in my pocket. I'd just cruise around. He'd run up around and back in my pocket. And it was funny because that's some of the plastic bag. Oh, it's that nasty dang. I said, yeah, that's my dude, man. And the most people, there's people that will like it. There's other people that don't, you know. That thing's nasty is my pet and I fed him good. So anyway, he's grown up and everything's cool and I know the day's gonna come when either I'm gonna just roll over on him 'cause I'm on the floor. I said, I know it's gonna happen. I'm set myself up for heartache, you know? And so one night I was laying the bunk. I threw the mattress off. First I cleaned the floor spotless and I throw the mattress down as between the bunk and the lockers and there's very little space. So I'm stepping over and I think he's still in his box 'cause he was a second ago. A little I know he's chewed a hole in the back and I stepped over the bunk and my foot's right about here and he runs out and I spare foot and I squish him. And it just hit me like gnarly. Like I held him in my hands and I just, he died in my hands and that's kind of like it brought everything back. The kid on the cement, on the pavement, screaming how bad, you know? Anyway, so it dies and I just, I lose it. Like it's the first time I lost it like that. Like since, I mean obviously I completely fucking lost it when I lost my kid. But it was just 'cause I nurtured him and I gave him my little dude, you know? And when he died I just sat there and cried like a baby. And it was like just 'cause of the relation, the correlation. - How did you manage this grief, this loss and then still go about your daily duties and basically what is like low intensity warfare on the yard? - I started helping people man. I started like donating my time to help people read and you know, trying to give myself like let me try to help some other people, you know? That I could feel like I'm dealing with a child. You know, like I have some friends, I have kids and some people close to me right now that have kids. And I just love to be part of their life and to teach them things. And you know, a lot of people can say shit about me. Like, oh yeah, that dude, you know, he's this, he's that whatever. But one day I am is a very humane guy and I'm very loving and I'm very, you know, I don't wear the tough guy too hard for the yard exterior all the time. I just, I am that. I'm just not, I try to show people like man, I got a heart like gold, you know? And that kid, the guy that I beat up that almost killed, it happened like right after that. He picked the worst fucking time to tell me I wasn't gonna put MMA on the TV. I'm like, man, you must have a fucking, wow. He didn't tell me. He told one of my dudes and told him your mouse had just died. And so you were in a bad way. He almost did too. If they wouldn't, like, like, if they weren't yelling at me, it was like a ton of like, you hear it stop. You're gonna kill him because the CEO had walked out front. So I was having my time with this guy in the cell. And he had to stay in the cell for a week just about six days. And it was funny because after you completely crushed someone, like, I'm the one coming over here. Hey, man, here I got all the shit. I'm commissary for your hair store. I know you can't come out of the cell. Like, like, like you took your ass weapon, you didn't go check and you didn't tell on me. And so whatever, you know what I mean? Like, he's one of the few I've ever let stay because the rule of thumb fuck someone up, make sure you get him so good they're gone. And don't let him stay on the yard because they could just run up behind you. Yeah, but there's got to be some kind of exceptions to rules, right? There is. There has to be some. Well, I mean, it's my decision. I'm the one put my own life and danger. Right. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. So you paroled, you beat your case. Beat your case. You. Yeah. I mean, I would call that beating. I overturned a half by conviction. You gave him more than half. You gave him more than half your time back. Did you parole out of a USP? Yeah. I wasn't allowed to go to anywhere, but Max Penitentiary's. I was labeled as being in a disruptive group. When you're in a disruptive group, I don't care. If you have one point, your point system can go up to the 40s. Right. You're not going anywhere. That's so crazy. Yeah. No, I never had a chance to. I did before 13. I had, I could have worked by points down. Right. But I wouldn't have made it anyway because my morals won't let me get unaligned with the sex defender as soon as you put me there. I'm going to fucking get on that yard and get one. Right. Or I'm just going to tell you, fuck you. I'm not staying. You can transfer me all over the place. I mean, that's kind of a more like discretion is the better part of valor. You know, you really don't want to pick up a case. You're short. Yeah. But if a guy comes to the yard and he's walked the line with them, sex offenders and he, I got some dirty UAs and now he's getting transferred. So if like if a guy came in like in this one instance, a guy came in from from another bus load that came in and he is walking on the chair and I'm like, what's up, wood? And I say, come here. He comes in my door. Tell him what I am. And I go, Hey, man, which come in from Sheridan, Oregon, I'm, I, yeah, you're down there with my friend Kyle. Man, we'll get together on the doors open. And I'm, you know, you, that's a, that's a yard you sign a paper and go out on. And so there's only one way you can leave there. And that's putting in work kind of sex offender and not getting a bunch of dirty UAs and having getting thrown off the yard because we're not going to tolerate that. You know, we're going to be like, you should have got off. And if you didn't, that's what's up and, you know, he's there because he got off though. Yeah, he came there because he got off on one. So he was good. You know, but there's, there's, that's the test. You know, like, you know, if I had showed up, this is going to sound like a stupid question. But like, I'm really not about hustling and gang banging. If I had showed up and I had not gotten off on a sex offender, but I had clean paperwork, that's the punishment going to be, is it going to be the ultimate punishment? No, you get smashed off the yard. Yeah, because it's like, it's, I mean, it's, it's a, it's a tricky thing, man. I've seen disciplines go too far, man. I've seen guys get killed, it shouldn't have got to kill because, come on, man, you, you, you kick someone in the head or, you know, everywhere on the seller's sharp, the corners of the box, the sink, the toilets, the blockers, I mean, everything. It's really hard. I mean, and disciplines go bad, you know, and you feel bad if they do, but anyway. And I defend myself absolutely better. Yeah, I mean, we prefer you fight, you know, at least he went out like a, a good white boy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I can take that. All right. So I'm a good wood. I just can't, I can't main line. No, yeah. I mean, you got to go back to those kind of yards and because that's the only place that will take you now, but it's, it's fucked up though, because the way they do it, they really put people under pressure, but you do have a right to refuse the yard. Yeah. I had a friend of mine go to USP Tucson, and he's in the shooting because man, I ain't going out here, man. You know, who the fuck I am? And he's a dangerous guy, youngster, got cam. We don't call him killer cam for nothing and he went there and they, you know, I ain't coming out there. Fuck that. I'm not going. I'm not going to ruin my career. And then finally he goes, you know what? You want to put me out there? You went out there. I went to the day room. I picked out the gnarliest mob rat. There was there. The snitch and a long ass case didn't even go for a sex offender and just destroyed this guy and, and, and picked up time. And it's messed up, because you set him up. Right. Right. So would, would that be a violation? Like if you, if you're a guy like cam, you've got, you can't put him around somebody with bad paperwork. No, he'll deal with it. No. Is, when you refuse to go out, no, that's violation, no, because like, I always had, I had a, a, a, a line, you know, like let a guy at least just be like, like, like say you do that to a guy, they could do this to you. The administration can be real dirty. And let's say these guys, let's say these guys, they hate you. And they're like, all right, we're going to transfer him over to this shard, because we know his reputation and, and we're going to make him just rot in the hole. And say the guy's like, you know what, fuck you, I'm not going to rot. And he's short. He's under two years. And he just, you know, the kind of guy he is, you know, he's not going to sit in that hole forever before he says, go ahead and put me out. It's fucked up because you're setting him up. You know, he's going to put in that work, or carry a knife to defend himself. And then he's under two years, he's a Beaumont and they say, I'll go search him. Now he's got another year and a half. Yeah, there's all kinds. Well, I mean, Beaumont, you know, you can always choose the carry a knife or not. It's not like mandatory. There's some people that, you know, they, we just do, you know, how many penitentiaries were you in? Let's see, started out water, got reundited, sent to Arizona for the state case, came back to Victorville. From Victorville, I went to Hazelton from Hazelton, I went to Hazelton. I went to God damn it's been a while. Oh, I went to, no, Hazelton, I went to the smooth program from the smooth program. I went to Big Sandy from Big Sandy. I went to Lee County, from Lee County. I went to Beaumont. From Beaumont, I went back to Victorville, so I did eight of them. So you perolled from Victorville? Oh, no, Cain in nine. And you perolled from Victorville? Yeah, I had a five year tag. I couldn't go there. The FBI said, fuck him, you know, don't let him come home. You guys are the murder and whatever they thought, I was part of it. I didn't do that. So you got the worst of the worst. What was the worst in terms of violence and, and rigidity? The way the cops treated us and the, and the violence, Victorville from 07 to 13 was the most violent. Hazelton was like that too. Big Sandy and Mama. They're all had their reasons, but Cain is sucked because the cops were flat rough you off there. Like they put their hands on you and they're not to me, but I mean, they do it to regular guys and then we have to act. They were always pretty careful how they handle certain people, you know, because they know if you've got any power, you can from the shoes and Kites out and be like, hit the cops. It's on. Yeah, I mean, man, that mean the, the Department of Justice came into Victorville right before I left on my second tour there because allegedly they were fucking beating the fuck out of dudes in the bag. The cops were beating the fuck out of the inmates in the bag. They had a Confederate hat I was told with dreadlocks from black people on it and that kind of went over the level. I mean, dudes that they had crushed now, granted they might have been Dick Jack and 205 gunners dudes that pull their shit out and whack off on the females and that's really indigenous to them. Like I've never seen a white guy or a Mexican guy or an island or do it, but you know, I've never seen any of any of those guys that I associate with do that, but, you know, different people have different cultures, I guess, you know, I get a bunch of hate mail for that, but it's the truth. If you look at, if you look at a gunning shot, 99% of it, it's, we have black guys who have been in the fed, not the bloods in the Christian, the West Coast. They don't do that. Okay. It's East Coast thing. It's a trend from the East Coast, the dirty South, the Midwest, the DCs and everybody knows what I'm saying. It's true. So anyone can throw hate. It's just the numerical fact you won't get any statistical fact. You won't get any hate from that. We've had black guys been in the feds who will confirm that. Yeah. On this show, can you go look it up, man, there's some, there's some really good dudes, you know, insist. And there's some really good black dudes I'm at, like, and then there's the other type. You knew Boy George? Yeah, I knew him. Super interesting. If you don't know Boy George is, I wish he would get out so he could do my podcast. I learned about this guy from a book I read. No bullshit in a sociology class when I was selling weed at the University of Oregon. And it was about this journalist embedded herself in a Puerto Rican neighborhood in the Bronx, starting in like the 1980s. And like chapter two, one of these females that she's documenting starts dating a guy named George Rivera. Or George. And she described the scope of his heroin operation when he was like 19 years old. Really small quantities of a massive customer. I mean, the guy was making like millions of dollars a week. No, for sure. No, he's making a lot of money. Wild, wild. Like, hadn't built like a whole corporation. I was with him in Lewisburg, Smooth. I was with him in Beaumont, Texas. Yeah, George's eye, you know, I mean it's like there's an understory to what was going on in prison like because he switched cars and started running, you know, with another Mexican set. I'm not even going to get in the details of who it was, but it was something that was kind of strange. I had a really big gambling ticket and when I was in Lewisburg, Smooth, I had a huge book. We were at the big West Coast sports. And there was a time when I got cracked like every game on the weekend. It was the playoffs. It's really dangerous when you're running four games, two Saturday Sunday games each day. And two games each day. And I remember I got lit up, but I'm like, hey, no worries. I'm paid. Anybody can take money on the wire. I'll send you a green form or whatever. And yeah, he started him and I had a few choice words for him and like, you know, but, you know, good dude, you know, good dude, he's done his work, like he's put in, yeah, I mean, he's been in fucking 27 years, probably, I mean, he's been in a long time. He's been in that. I think 30. Yeah. Yeah, he's been in for a while. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, no, he's I mean, I showed you a picture of me in him and the elbow, I mean, he's I, you know, but, but he's been wanting to get, I can't talk about it. He's trying to get out. He should. He should try that instead of some of the other things he's trying. Yeah, I keep hearing he's fucking up, but we've talked to people that were a lot more violent in the drug game at that level that have gotten out. No, yeah, it's all, it really depends on what you're doing with your spare time in prison. Yeah, but I know, yeah, I know, I know, well, yeah, I know pretty much everyone that's, you know, well, I mean, yeah, I've been out a lot of transfers, you know. Yeah. Okay. I do. Dago Mark. This is a lot of fun. I mean, fun. And also really heartbreaking and sorry about your son and I'm happy for your freedom and I'm sorry. What happened to you? I mean, look, you didn't have to do some time, no doubt, but I'll assign eight years. Yeah. I don't ever, I mean, Thomas Jefferson is quote, was it Thomas Jefferson? I would rather a guilty man walked free. I would rather a thousand guilty men walked free than one innocent person do a day, you know, without their freedom. And so the system really, yeah, he's a great, I mean, the only thing I would touch on other than what we talked about is that what I've done now, I've started this course called Thrive in the Impossible. Yes. Tell. It's amazing how many people reach out to me that hear my story and have lost their children and, you know, I talked to him and I got him through what they're going to go through the grieving process, what to expect, et cetera. Like I said in the other interview, it's like, it's like coffin locus out like the Green Mile when the guy sucks all the poison, the cancer out of the woman and then he's physically ill after. It's like kind of what it does to me because I have to relive the death of my son. And so, you know, that course is something I'm proud of that I did and, you know, and now I'm going to be. be basically a poster boy for, you know, enhancements, substances that are legal, you know, like legal peptides, legal peptides, and legal testosterone replacement therapy, and as well as HRT, and even everything up to the trizepa tie, the retitude tri, the weight loss message, everything that can enhance your health, I'm linking up and by the time the sayers, you'll know exactly what the call sign is and everything, and you're going to run it, like you said, and it's just, it's a company that I can feel good about getting people help because health is everything, like physical fitness, for me anyway, has been something that's allowed me, the endorphin release, that's everything to keep me going is, and I have a lot of injuries, and that's stuff's helped me to maintain my physique, and, I think it helped your sanity in prison. 100% the endorphin release was mandatory, but it's just science, you know, it's modern science, it's legal, it's stuff that I'm proud to get behind, and by the time the sayers, everyone's going to see what it is, and you know, and I'm sure they'll realize that. I've used peptides, based on a past guest who recommended them to me, and I'm going to switch over to your company, the link will be in the description. Follow you, where can they follow you on social media. Dago Mark, DAG-O-MARK_619, because I want them to follow you, and then when your book comes out, I want them to go by your book, and I want the other enterprise, and I want them to reach out to you, and you're just, you're a good guy to know, and you're a good guy, and I know you're going to be very successful in the peptide business, and giving back, it's super cool, so thank you again, appreciate it. Well, well said. Well said. I like it. Oh yeah, Dago Mark, right here on the connect, my name is Johnny Mitchell. Peace out. (electronic beeping)