Fear, Curiosity, and the Power of Play

This is Russell Moore inviting you to join me on the Russell Moore Show, where we look for signposts in a strange land standing fast to what really matters. Every week I talk with thinkers, artists and leaders about faith, culture, and living a life of integrity, kingdom over culture wars, truth over tribalism, pilgrimage over partisanship, witness over winning, and Christ over everything. Join us on Apple Podcasts Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. This is C.T Media. Welcome to Being Human. I'm your host Steve Cuss. I'm Lisa Cuss. Being human is all about coping mechanisms and the way our coping mechanisms infect our relationships and our faith. So we help you look at what's going on under the surface so you can be well, so you can be well with your people, and you can be more aware of God's presence. And speaking of God's presence, we light a candle on this episode. We do light a candle. It's important wherever you are, whether you're on your way to work or going home or doing errands, taking a break with kids on the treadmill, no matter where you are, what you're doing. We just want to interrupt the moment, just to remind us of the presence of God with us. And we do that by lighting a candle so that we can see light and the reality that there is no darkness, none that can overcome the light and the presence of who God is and who He is with us. So this year we're adding these recap episodes, every four guests are so at least and I will come on and we'll talk back through some of the highlights of our guests. And what's interesting is to be frank, we typically schedule guests based on availability and yeah, oftentimes some themes come out. Yeah, it was really fun this time to look at the themes and how they relate to each other and help each other. Yeah, so we have four guests we're going to cover quite briefly. We'll play a little quote from each guest to remind you, but at the end of the episode, at least and I going to explore the common themes of all the guests. This is really the goal of our recap to give our audience something that you can be thinking about something that you can be doing. So first guest was early Chi, the Chinese German early was such a delightful guy and he's most famous for his book, The Wise Leader. My initial takeaway that really surprised me, I think when I think of wisdom, I think of knowledge information when early thinks of wisdom, he primarily thinks of relational health. Yeah, I just loved his examples and marriage after being married for 50 years, what he's still learning relationally with his wife on what do we really want when we're communicating with each other or when where we share vulnerable. And of course, he started there and then looked at the macro level as well. Yeah, you know, I've been asking many of my guests lately, what's a concrete thing that a follower of Jesus can do to make a difference? I just so much coming at us and so much need and I really love the way Uli spoke about it. I've been thinking about it ever since he talked about it, the idea of how we can care and not care at the same time. It feels like we're all reacting to one another and it's like a bunch of ping pong balls. I think there's several things that are helpful to me. One of my favorite poets is T.S. Eliot, one of his famous lines is teachers to care and not to care. And I think in a strange way that we care too much, right? We care about a lot of things and related to that is we have such a sense of responsibility obligation to respond that we forget that we're not God. God alone is God. Somebody once said, "There is a God and you're not it." I think we forget that. And I think for a whole host of reasons, particularly for leaders who are upfront to our, in the public eye, people sort of expect them to be almost God-like, so to be able to know everything and to do all the right things. I think healthy, biblical wisdom basically says, "You know, we're not God. We have limitations. We can discern things, but it's not so easy as simply saying we're going to, we know all the right answers. You don't have to respond to everything that's out there, right? I think there's a part of it that's self-regulation. I think we all have to be aware of what's going on inside of us as we're doing this. Something we care too much to use T.S. Eliot's phrase. The other thing is, I think wisdom fundamentally requires us to treat the other people as persons, not as simple ideas. And they're made in the image of God, and that means fundamentally that God is not figure outable. Man, this idea about caring deeper, about less things, I love that. I thought that was really helpful. It allows us to do something, whereas when there's a onslaught of all the things that we need to care about and do something about, we often get paralyzed, not knowing where to start. I was surprised when I was a lead pastor how much genuine need would come our way that we really couldn't help with because we were focused on trying to care more about less things. It's a hard balance. You never know what to serve and what not to serve. If everybody is caring more about one thing or two things, then we're going to be able to do a whole lot more together. Otherwise, we can tend to feel like it's all on our own shoulders. One of the things I really liked about him was just his integration of playfulness and imagination. What was his word, figure outable? Figure outable. He was like, we often approach God and honestly other humans as if God and the rest of us are all figure outable. And the beauty is that God is a mystery and we will know parts, but he is not figure outable on this side of heaven. And the posture of just realizing that and letting that be something that is just going to be a mystery in an area of wonder. And that also the same with humans, even in areas that we disagree, right? If we approach each other that way, and if we can be really curious about what's going on and what people care about rather than making too dimensional, I guess, everything they say. It can help us connect a whole lot more and there's a lot more wisdom there. Now, I always appreciate when a guest is playful or reminds us to be playful. And that was another thing that Uli did as well. Like, I think things are so earnest nowadays and there's so much anxiety. I know in my work, playfulness is a great antidote to anxiety and Uli really brought a playful posture as well with him. Yeah. All right. So our next person we're going to look at today is Nathaniel Muller. Nathaniel and his wife Katie have been friends of ours for quite a while. Katie was on staff at our church still is for years and just a dynamic couple and family. And I was blown away, honestly, by Nathaniel's message here and his experience. And so concrete at naming issues and fears that we hold, but also concrete and a path of what we can do with God in facing these. Well, I have a distinct memory of when Nathaniel and Katie first walked through the doors of our church. They were the kinds of people any pastor is looking to have in your congregation. And right out of the gate, they were kind of measuring our church through the lens of global poverty and how much we do. That's been Nathaniel's passion for a long time. And then I remember, yeah, Katie worked for me for a while and then they broke our hearts when Nathaniel took the job at USA. They moved. And they moved to DC. Yeah. And then came back more recently Nathaniel could work remotely. And then of course, famously or infamously, he had just a day or two notice before USA was entirely closed. And his big emphasis is malaria. He's really given his life to helping eliminate and lower malaria deaths unnecessary deaths. So in the whole shock and controversy, actually of USA being shut down. There's been a lot of skepticism and a lot of fear around motives and what's really going on and what is USAID really do and all of this and Nathaniel brought us back just kind of helped us chase fear. And what it does through the modern church history as well. There are instantaneous moments in time where the church has the opportunity to lean in or lean out. And it seems like a lot of those moments are really centered around fear. I mean, you look at COVID, right? I think that was a moment of fear where the church had the opportunity we can step in. People are hurting right now. People are isolated. What can the church do to serve? So I think you saw a lot of churches. You saw a lot of Christians leaning in. But then I mean realistically, you saw some leaning out and who were driven by fear. I think we saw this a lot around 9/11 and looking at the Islamic religion and Muslims and some of the fear that was stoked. And I honestly think this is another moment where we have the opportunity to not let fear drive how we really want to live. act as the big sea church and as the little sea church. We are being told who we should fear. And I think part of the political landscape is to stoke and kind of instill fear and create this mentality of there are others out there who we should be fearful of. And in reality a lot of those others are marginalized, the least of these, the immigrants, the people that if you're looking at the Bible, we are called to be the hands and feet of Jesus too. And so I mean the really big question that I think we should be asking is the church is are we going to let fear dictate pulling away and looking at others as a source of anxiety or are we going to let fear be the opportunity for us to step in and to be really be the hands and feet who are serving these people. I like that so much because with everything that's going on right now, I mean our culture it does feel like it's driven by fear right now. And when we look at fear internally or externally around us, it makes everything feel so rigid. And like we don't have a choice. And I love even the fact what are we going to do with fear that we forget we can have a relationship with fear. There's actually something we can do about it. And as a church, are we going to use fear to keep us divided or are we going to use it as an impetus to step in and serve and help and specifically in this case. Look at who can we help that are the marginalized. The whole idea of just again and fear it's not too dimensional. It's three dimensional and there is a way to connect in it even beyond what we're being told. Yeah. One of the things I really loved about this episode is Nathaniel didn't just like educate us as a global malaria expert. He got really personal about, you know, he's been laid off. He has to provide for his family. And so he actually went into what he is doing personally to stay grounded with God. At the beginning of the year, and kind of reflecting on the last year, one of the things that I really wanted to focus on was this idea of getting back to the spiritual basics. And so I've been extremely intentional about things like my daily time with God. And surprise now I don't have a job. I have plenty of time to spend with God. And so I think I've been able to use some of that time to be closer to him, being incredibly intentional about having a dedicated Sabbath with my family. That was a practice that we started right three or four years ago. And we love it. Being much more intentional about things like scripture memorization. So some of these things that I think are really spiritual basics that I think I had lost a little bit over the last six to 12 months. And I think it was ironic that at the end of December beginning of January, that was what God was putting on my heart to really focus on for the next couple months. Yeah. And then to reevaluate after the quarter. And so that has been something that I've been hanging my hat on over the past three or four weeks. Hey there, I'm Clarissa Mall, producer and moderator of Christianity Today's flagship news podcast The Bulletin. Join Russell Moore might cost for in me each week as we discuss breaking news and current events that matter to you. Every Tuesday and Friday, you'll enjoy wise, measured, deeply Christian conversation about the people, events, and issues that are shaping our world. Find us on Apple podcasts or Spotify and join our Bulletin community. I A third guest in this series was Charlie Peacock. I've chatted to Charlie a couple of times on this podcast. One time he and his wife Andy joined us. Lisa smiling right now because I'm such a fan of Charlie. I listened to episode and I'm like, oh my gosh, you are such a fanboy. It's and then you listen to him and it's like, of course you are. He's unbelievable. Yes. Yeah, so I mean, I like, I'll just play my hand. I think music has such a deep resonance with me anyway. And part of it is complicated by the fact that I'm a musician, but I'm not a natural musician. I have no shame in saying I love playing music, but I'm not naturally gifted at it. And then I come across someone like Charlie. It just pours out of him like his skill as a musician is incredible. One of my favorite things about Charlie is his the way he plays with words in his songs that there's sometimes very provocative and sometimes very funny. And that triggered you when you were listening to the episode. I mean, we're really interested in family of origin and, you know, and there's so much goodness often from our family of origin. And so Charlie talked about always wanting to be a poet. Can I interrupt that was so funny to me. He's like, it's one thing to want to be a musician. But then to say I want to be a poet like there's no way you can make money out of that. That was funny. But then you hear he would come home from school each day. And his mom would not leave the task list of what needed to be done, but she would leave a limbic. But I as a mom, I was like, what way to bring playfulness into the after school tired kid, but also to do, you know, here's the things you need to do and check on this person's family or whatever, but it's all in limbic mode. I just love that. And so I think you see and Charlie the poetry, the playfulness that that brings the directness. I think in conversations outside of this podcast, which Charlie and then in this, like what a combination of playfulness and directness. I also was fascinated because he's a world class Grammy winning producer. Like not just an artist, but he's behind the mixing desk. I'm one of those guys that back in the days of CDs and records, I would read every line of note, every musician who's producing it. And I remember back in the 90s, listening to some of my favorite artists and thinking to myself, that has to be a Charlie peacock. He must be producing this because there's a particular rhythm or maybe the artists, this particular album took a really fresh direction. And sure enough, I'd open it up and there's Charlie's name. Yeah. And so we got into that on the episode. And I was fascinated by his skill at noticing when fear enters the room. Yes. Yeah. You must relate to that as a therapist too. That has to be something you'll hyperattune to. Oh, completely. And sometimes we're good at disarming it. And sometimes it gets sucked right into it. But he did a phenomenal job of noticing it and disarming it. Yeah. Always lowering the fear of the artist to improve the chances of a good performance. Yes. In the artist's mind, oh my gosh, what if I can't hit this note? And then that becomes the truth. I probably can't hit this note. And so we're afraid to try. And Charlie's just like, let's just give it a try and see how curiosity gets. Yes. And just kind of making it less of a succinct target into there's a whole lot of room around it that we can play with. It's really beautiful. Yeah. He really brought a curiosity and a lightness of being into it that I was really struck by that. Yeah. So in the conversation, you had to ask Charlie a specific question. You would ask him, when and how did you feel good enough to keep going down the path of the artist that you were? And then this was his response. There was always an adult entering into the story somewhere who created a circle of affirmation and affirmed me and allowed me to spin up to the next circle where there would be someone else waiting to affirm me. And I began to recognize those and they begin to fuel my confidence. So whatever doubt I had or insecurities or imposter syndrome or any of that, it was combined with my own ego and confidence. But also the confidence that, well, there are people that are saying, Hey, you're really good at this. And I would listen to them and take it in and say, that makes sense to me. Like if your community is giving you their blessing, then you should listen to that. All right. And then our final guess was the one and only. Actually not one and only. There's four Steve Cusses. Is that right? There's four Steve Cusses in the world. There's not enough. I think is the way. So our last guess was Steve J Cuss. Yeah. Not to be confused with Steve A Cuss. Yeah. He lives in England. Yeah. He reached out to me on LinkedIn. Yeah. And a few of the Steve Cusses in the world, we've kind of known of each other over the years. But I really appreciate he reached out and he said, Hey, we are both emotional health leadership coaches. And let's get on a podcast to thought how wonderful. Yeah. So Steve and J Cusses from England put a career in a EA Sports, one of the largest video game companies in the world went through his own journey of burnout. And now he's written a wonderful book on leadership. And he speaks and coaches people to stay well in their leadership roles. Yeah. One of the things that really blew me away is when he said, EA Sports is all about having fun. And we were not having fun making a product that has I thought that was really interesting. and how relatable is that? - Right. - That when we're trying to produce fun for other people, I think at one point he said, we were actually in misery in our efforts to create the fun for other people and that they would try harder and try harder, just do it better, do it better, and the misery got bigger and got bigger. And it actually became a source of trauma, I think for him, just not getting off that treadmill of trying harder. - Yeah, it went right into burnout. - Yeah. - What a great question of, why is my own internal experience, opposite of what we are trying to produce and create for other people? - It's always a great gut check, isn't it? Like when we are working with people in ministry, this is the big question, is do you relate more to God as God's child, which is your identity, or God's employee, which is your vocation? And I know for me, I have struggled, I keep conflating those two. And so, Steve Cusses, we have to be to say that, his kind of reminder of that, I thought was really hopeful for all of us who are followers of Jesus trying to make a difference. - Yeah. - So he got into his trauma, talked about it through the lens of a lock box, let's take a listen to that. - When I was in the grip of that trauma, I had to step away from work for three months to start that process. I walked along and I played a lot of golf. I instinctively felt doing things physical was going to help me multiple ways with understanding what was going on mentally to that resonate. With the concept of the lock box resonates hugely with me and I talk to some people about the gift of the trauma. If I can say it that way, it's the self-awareness. That's the benefit from that self-awareness goes a journey of self-development, self-growing, hopefully. And my big observation about the box is once the lid's open, you cannot re-close that box. You can't pretend you don't know what's in that box. However good our tricks for self-delusion are, that's one that seems resistant to it. - Yeah, so I think most of us can relate to the whole idea of the lock box that he could relate to, that whatever has happened to us that we actually don't want a face because it holds so much pain, that we try to just lock away and we're so afraid, aren't we? - Well, you probably are. I don't think I'm afraid. That's why I'm so cheerful over time. It saves me having to look at you. - You're great with the lock box. - Yeah, I have to look deep down in. - Yeah, but we're afraid that if we open it, that we'll be overtaken by what's inside of it. And he was just saying that what is also true is that once you do open it, you're not the same because you are aware also of the ways you've tried to cope that don't work. And it was such a switch on how to look at why it's important to unlock the lock box because it can change you in a positive way as well. And then we were just talking, there was a conversation on trauma being held in the body. I love the way he described how hard he worked through what was going on with his trauma. And we get so frustrated, don't we? When we're like, we know what we should do. We know that we should have playfulness or be experiencing more joy as we create joy for others. But somehow our body doesn't respond the same way as our thoughts. - Yeah. - And when we're trying to like work with the lock box inside of us that just thinking about it isn't enough. And that if that's you today and you are like, there are so much, my mind thinks one way and my body shows up a complete other that looking at how trauma is stored in the body and there's so many ways to do that through story, through as alluded to EMDR internal family systems by neurofeedback, like there's so many ways that can work with people to focus on what's going on in your body to bring it out so that we can make sense of it. - Yeah, I think two huge lessons I've learned from you. One is over the years and one was as recently as a couple of months ago is the idea that talking through your trauma is helpful but working on your body in trauma is more helpful or more powerful. And then you and I were teaching at an intensive recently and I just overheard you, you said it so succinctly, you said we have head beliefs and we have body beliefs and our body will win every time. And that was such a succinct summary I thought of the goal even of this show is to help our body line up with our head beliefs. I'm often even through the day I'm measuring okay Lord, I believe in the freedom in Jesus in my head is my body believing that right now or is my body bound. So trauma or not trauma, that's just a really helpful way of understanding it. - Yeah. - So we had some really neat themes from these four guests. The first theme, what do we do with fear? Every one of us can take responsibility to pay attention to fear that's coming from inside us and fear swirling around in our society. And I think if we all did our part to try to lower the fear, that would increase human connection by a long shot. - It really is about noticing and naming first 'cause when we notice the fear where it's coming from, sometimes then it allows us to be curious so we can disarm it within ourselves and offer curiosity and even playfulness as was talked about through these four to help disarm it in those around us as well, which allows for connection rather than division and separation. - I don't know if I've ever told you this story from Chaplaincy and when we did our group cohort, but it was in the era where my cohort, it was very early in the Chaplaincy, where you remember I was very competitive about the whole experience. - Oh gosh, yes. - Because they were pointing things out of me that I didn't know people could see. I couldn't see them in myself. - A lot of blind spot knowledge. - A lot of blind spots. It was really intense in the first like three months of Chaplaincy. And as I look back, one of the things that my peers and the supervisors were trying to help me notice how much fear I had. And I didn't believe I was a fearful person because I'm Australian, because I'm a young white guy. So the idea that they could see my fear was very threatening to me. And I never forget one of the supervisors, Randy said to me, you know Steve, after all, the Bible says, "Perfect love cast out fear." And I looked at Randy and said, "Yes, but you're not perfect." (laughing) - I do not remember that. - I don't think I've ever told you this story. And even as I said it, I thought, "What are you doing, dude?" But it was of course my reaction to being exposed. - I'm right now. - I'm ring up. And so the invitation to notice how fear makes you armor up. Some of the most aggressive people in our culture right now are the most afraid and the way they are expressing their fear is through like theological certainty or all of that stuff in recovery from that. But that was great time for me. - I think we're in recovery for life. You know, don't you? - That's fine, yeah. (laughing) - But in that is the question, what is the story or fear holds? It's an important question for us to ask ourselves and people that feel safe too for us to share that and for us to ask one another and to hold that in the light of the perfect love of Christ. - So then two other themes, and these are kind of broad themes. One is curiosity. This is a theme we explore a lot on this show. This came up in these episodes. But then the other one is like the combination of playfulness and imagination. And we can all take responsibility to do the earnest work of play. In one of the fields I study in a particular stream of system theory, they call it the serious work of play. I like that. - And then all of that brings relational connection which when we have that, it helps us move forward no matter what the world is throwing at us. - Yeah. - For sure. - Okay, so thanks for joining us on this recap episode. That's really functionally what being human is all about is healthy relational connection. The surprising relationship is always the one with yourself. And that's where we always begin and always end. Paying attention to what's going on in you so you can manage that and therefore improve or increase your relational connection with people, but even in your faith journey with God. So thanks for joining us and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music) - Being human with Steve Cuss is a production of Christianity today. Eric Petrick and Mike Cosper are the executive producers and Matt Stevens is our senior producer. This episode was mixed by Kevin Morris, the music by Dan Phelps. (upbeat music)