Fashion Neurosis with IB Kamara

If you get mad every time you. Pick up your phone and start scrolling. It'S not just you. Rage, babe, is kind of the currency. Or the power that's behind a lot. Of the content we might see this. Week on Explain it to me from. Vox why the Internet is pissing you off on purpose. New episodes Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. IB Kamara. Thank you for having me. Bella, can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes? Today I'm wearing an off white denim. I'm wearing a top. I don't know where I found it, but I found it in some shop. I'm wearing a hat by my friend Jawara Allen, and I'm wearing some clogs, black gloves. I think I chose it because it's just comfortable. This is how I usually dress at home, or I might be with a short. And it's just my everyday kind of like, simple look. And to describe your mantle is hard because your creative output has no containers and you're a stylist, your creative director, a magazine editor, and a music video director. And now you've just released an EP of your own music and you work in so many creative fields. How would you describe yourself? It's so hard for me to describe myself, to be honest, but I'm just someone that takes a medium and find my way around it. I'm not afraid to try something new. And as a being, I feel like my purpose here is to fully express myself. And so I think that's the simplest term I can really describe myself. I think I'm just a true expressionist, and I like to dive into things and learn and fully be inspired by it and also find my own way around it, find a different direction to it that is maybe not the norm. And I'm not scared to take a risk. So maybe in simple terms, in plain English, I'm just an expressionist, living and learning from great minds around me. You described growing up in the Gambia after leaving Sierra Leone when you were four, I think, and not having any TV or Internet and having to use your imagination as kids. Did that embed itself as a survival strategy when you came to England? I think so. I think for me, at a very young age, I knew. I mean, I understood. I came from a very poor background, which is like, you know, I was born in Sierra Leone, and Sierra Leone had war for so many years, and I'm born into that war. So I realized that, you know, there was no tv, you know, we played outside the best we could, but I had so many things in my head that wanted to explore as a child and I think there were little outlets to really make those ideas live. And I think I then just internalized a lot of things. I think I started dreaming bigger and bigger as much as I could. So yeah, at the age of four and almost six I would say at the age of six is when we actually ran away from the war and moved to the Gambia. And in the Gambia is when I first sort of in the Gambia was the first time I had access to television. So growing up in Sierra Leone, there was no such thing as a visual point of view. So I had to make up everything myself and with my friends. Yeah, because you describe your initial interests in fashion as from looking at BBC and CNN presenters and what they were wearing. And did you find. Was your interest in politics also stimulated in any way by how these presenters looked? Absolutely. To me they were my superstars and I didn't know their names at the time, but I saw the way they dressed and I, and then I was much more into politics because we had to watch it. And my uncle made me watch cnn, BBC every single morning before going to school. So it became like an everyday information outpouring to me and I love what it look, I knew the ads, I knew the visual sounds and I just sucked all of it. And I think that was my first entry into the world and learning about the west, learning about kids, school could, you know, live freely globally. And so yeah, I think the news for sure was a gateway to my early formed memories of creativity. In a way, it's so interesting to think that the communication of politics, especially you living in a war zone, was made kind of possible or more absorbable to do with how the people were put together and what they were wearing. And it enhances the language of what people are telling, you know, what they're using to communicate with you. And it's such an interesting idea that they would be the kind of representatives of something so important. Yes. And I think as a 76 year old your mind is very explosive and you take every single thing in and you find ways to sort of manifest yourself into them. And so their style on TV and everyone around me influenced a lot of my later years of work. And there's a lot of tailoring in my work because that's what I saw. They were on immune. So in my subconscious these things were becoming codes that I will one day use in my work. And so taking even the most Traumatic information from television. I was able to use my own little mind to find fantasies and creativity in that situation that I grew up in. You described not seeing your mother for nearly 15 years from early childhood until you moved to England as a teenager, even though you had a happy childhood. Did that create gulfs around intimacy, not growing up with her? I think so. I think, you know, I, I didn't see my mom. I think my mom left me at the age of four to come to the UK to find a better life as a refugee, which I understood growing up, you know, it was for the greater good. It was, you had to just suck it up and find love where you could. But I didn't really understood love for a very long time because there was no one there to hug you when you actually needed it or you were part of a group of kids being raised and you couldn't really fully express yourself. So for a long time I just hide a lot. And it does affect me to this very day, to be honest. But now, and that's for the greater good. Like most people, you know, I also am a very fortunate human to come from a mother that had nothing and had to really struggle for so long without much given to her too previously. But taking the risk to give me everything made me feel. Find other ways to push that absence of love from a mother into other things. You know, I remember I just had a lot of. I grew up around so many girls, so that was a place that was filled, but not fully, but it still made me very much in touch with my feminine energy. And I had a beautiful stepdad that guided me and make sure. I mean we had nothing, but we didn't also need to want to the extreme. You know, we, we traveled in the war with him and he was incredible as a father. He was probably 27. And I just think of myself, 27, Lord, I was lost. And him trying to find a way to protect two young four year old boys. You know, seeing the world for the first time through very traumatic lens and how he had to cope with all of that. But he gave as much love as he could. So I am so appreciative of that of him. You know, I'm proud that he found a way to, to keep me intact during those hard times. Yeah, yeah. It's so interesting you talking about the greater good and trying to kind of understand that concept when you're a tiny child and. Yeah, it's so confusing the idea of that. I mean, you know, being a refugee is, creates all this necessity of pressure On a family. But I suppose I wanted to ask you about that because my mother left me when I was seven for three months and I didn't know where she was when we were in Morocco. And it's a hard thing to recover from entirely. It leaves a kind of mistrust will did in me or a wariness that I'm trying to really counteract now because I don't want to be a wary, mistrustful person. I want to be like close to love, like you say about love, which is the antidote to those things totally. You know, the lack of a mother's love can affect you in, can sort of give you the shadow of self doubt for a long time that I think you just have to find a way to heal from it. But I am so proud of my parents. You know, I am proud of the risk they took. I'm proud of, of the life they fought hard to give me. I'm a product of that struggle. And yes, I might not be the 70% wholesome in terms of a child that had love and hugs and told they were good enough, but I'm happy at my age. I am, I'm finding peace with those parts of myself that we're deprived of that. And. It'S a daily step, of course, but, you know, and that's life, you know, I can't, I cannot change what's happened. And if anything, it made me stronger and more determined to be this person. And I'm proud of them. Yeah. And you're a pusher of boundaries with style. And was there a piece of clothing that you were obsessed with as a child? No, I'm more obsessed with people and people's style. My background was never full of like, options. You know, you, you get the trousers you get and you're happy with it. And you know, I always make fun of my friends who grew up, grew up here and oh, we went to this place and got these trousers. But I was thinking I, I had made, made to measure. It might not be, it might not be as much, but it was definitely some, some, somebody was thinking of me when we were making, when I was sewing those and those things for me as a child, some brilliant tailor put in so much love, so there was not so much of option. So I, I'm not materialistic, but I, I, I love style. I love when people make an effort. I, I love the idea of looking cool. I hate the process of finding things to look cool. So I think that's my conflicting perspective on it. But I enjoy style. I think, you know, I was. I studied under Barry Kamen for so long, and he taught me so much about style. And style is how you hold a cuff. It's how you wake up in the morning and put on the shoes. It's a little hem on the. On the trousers. It's how you fold the cuffs, you know, and those little details and expressions. I'm much more moved by the amount of brands you have at once. Yeah. Because you talk about him giving you a book about fear and why people do things because they're afraid. And I wondered what you were afraid of at the time when you were reading that book. I can never fully find the name of that book, but that's one of the best gifts I think I've been given is the first time I read the book. The book taught me that when you are afraid, it's also a selfish act, because you are so interesting. You were sort of depriving something beautiful to happen. So you're. You were. You're holding back. And I. Barry and I think, met at a very perfect time in my. In my early 20s, I think. I had just left home and in university and Lost. Yes, I was. No, I was actually in college. I was just lost and trying to find. I had disappointed my parents by not doing medicine. And now I'm trying to find this creative energy that I really forced myself to do and fought for. And here's this guy giving me his book on fear and telling me, I'm enough. I am fine. Everything is okay with me. I am not. Because I work a certain way, I talk a certain way. My. My calmness is fine, my perspective is okay. My love for where I'm from is fine, and I should be able to express it and not hold it back. And I think that gave me power, speed. And he really loved me. And I loved him like a dad. I adored him. I wanted to be like him because he was a true artist. He. There was no sense of want, you know, he was comfortable in expressing himself. And he embraced my feminine and masculine and my feminine and my vulnerable energy all at once. And that was a perfect figure for me at that age. I think I really needed that, and the universe really brought that to me. And I cherished those moments so dearly with him. And so he really. He really pushed me. And that book changed my life in a way. And I hope one day I can find. I can find it and share it, but it just kept me at peace for a very long time. Such a thoughtful and discerning gift to Pass on to I. One thing my shrink said to me, I asked him something about what was missing from my childhood and he said, in an ideal world, parents sort of guide, they sort of take you from A to B. And I think that was missing. And it sounds like Barry Kamen did that for you. He just knew what you needed and gave you this kind of going through the mirror experience from being able to read a book. It's such a brilliant idea. You said that you're obsessed with clothes. Just as long as they're not on me. And is this to do with perfectionism? And is it easier to perfect someone else rather than yourself? So I always remember Anthony Price, the designer Anthony Price, saying, well, darling, we'd never be designers if we had perfect bodies. And I thought, yeah, you're so right. This is driven from discontent and kind of the critical voice. That's a funny one. True. I find it much more exciting to dress somebody else. And I do get excited to dress myself. But I think the human body is such a beautiful canvas and having the opportunity to decorate it and tell stories with it is beautiful. I can never see myself so much in those fashion images because it's. It doesn't need to reflect my physical presence, but it does reflect my mind. It does reflect my collaborator's mind. And that's way more exciting to me. And clothes can be like little toys, like for a kid. And you get to really be expressive and tell wonderful stories with them. But for my everyday life, I like the simplicity of things and I like color, but I always run back to the same silhouette. For now. It might change a couple of years. You just never know. But I like feeling comfortable and yeah, that's how I. That's how I see it. Okay, so you may have heard New York City gets a new mayor this week. 34 year old Democratic Socialist Zoran Mamdani. Mamdani's election was one of the biggest wins for the left in 2025. But since then, he's been quietly going about a new task, trying to make sure his sweeping campaign promises can actually happen. An agenda that will freeze the rents for more than 2 million rent stabilized tenants, make buses fast and free and deliver universal childcare across our city. I'm a little skeptical about how he's going to get everything done. I think that's what a lot of people are promised. So many things like free buses, you know, housing and all that. Promises, promises. Can this new kind of politics succeed? Or is this Madani's high point? The days before he gets into Office. On this episode of Today Explained from Vox, we sit down with New York City Mayor elect and ask him directly, is he for real? That's this week on Today Explained because. Do you ever get shy? And I wondered if you do, what do you do to create some distance when you need it? Yes, I do get shy, but I'm working on it though. And when I'm very shy in public spaces, I think I just run to the bathroom for a little bit. It's the easiest. Well, I shouldn't say that now and then people be like, oh, it's going to bathroom. But you know, I think you find your way. I step out of the room a little bit, get some fresh air, you know, tell myself it's fine, you know, you can, you can hang around, you know, you can, you're funny. You can also crack a joke. Yeah. You know, you can ask somebody about other things, you know, and, and then you keep it going. You know, it's a little prep talk here and there, but I'm powering through it for sure. And in my industry you have to be so visual all the time, especially in person. And I'm just doing the best I can with what I got. It sounds like a good strategy. I started to notice when I get shy, I get incredibly unfriendly and literally close down my face. And I've just noticed this recently and thought I must stop being like that. Just be shy instead of being so kind of hostile in my manner. Yeah, just be shy. Just let it out. Yeah, it's a nice. I always like it when people are shy. So I think it's a human feeling. I'm sure the next person too is very shy. It's very endearing, I think, but once you break that ice, it's like a long lost friend sometimes catching up. You know, it can be cute. Can be cute for sure. Because you said you wake up in the morning and start your day by writing and do you find there are recurring themes. From 5am to 8am I think is ipiz time. I can wake up, I can write, I can sing, I can go run in the park, read a book if I can. I make the best porridge. Between 7 to 8am I like to tell myself I can cook, but I really can't. But I do the best I can anyway between those times so I can make a cute little breakfast, just listen to good music and read if I can. But those periods are my time and I selflessly get them to my heart. But it's. Unless it's I'm doing a job somewhere and have to be on set for eight. But if I'm home, I try to keep that for myself, selfishly. And it's a very selfish act, but once in a while, I think it's needed. Yeah, I think those are very kind of the. The setup, aren't they? And you need that. I find those things are more and more important, and they're so strengthening. Yeah, it's almost like a. Like a happy dose in the morning for yourself, and you really dose yourself up with so much of this happy, happy energy, and then you're ready to just take on the world and. And nothing kind of phases me after that, to be honest. I'm just ready to go. Let's go. What's new? What are we doing? What's on today? Because you were at Central Saint Martin's which you described as wild, and you said, I used to go to church every Sunday. And then I became an atheist, and I wondered if something had taken the place of God. I think my newfound freedom. I think, you know, I grew up in a very, very religious household where self expression was just not you. Was just not something you do. And so even though I had all of this inside of me and. Yeah. And I sang in the church from the age of four till I was 15. So I had to just. I mean, church was the only form of expression that I could really express any form of creativity. Everything else, I had to hide and do it. And when I moved to the UK at 16, I also was not allowed to sing or do anything artistic. And I thought, okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna just do this degree my parents want me to do, which is study, to study medicine. And. And I knew I hated it, but I just went through it anyway. And I eventually dropped out at 20. At 19, I dropped out. I just could not go forward with it. It felt like a prison. I felt like I was making the biggest mistake of my life, going to do something I didn't want to do out of the fear of my parent. But as an immigrant, there are certain periods in your life that you have to just be the most obedient child as you can to get your right to remain in the uk. And so I had to make sure I just did everything I could to not be creative at this point and get my freedom to remain so I can be creative. And once I got that, I got the courage to tell my parent, hey, listen, I can't do this. And it was much more Harder than coming out for me. God, really? Actually, yeah. I think it was much more, I think the level of disappointment to an immigrant parent that have fought so hard and gone through war. You know, some parents immigrate and maybe they don't have a war so much, but mine came from extreme poverty. I was born in Big Waf, which is kind of the poorest part of Sierra Leone. It's, you know, there's barely drinking water and electricity. So, you know, at 19, as an immigrant, you're, you're thinking as a 25 year old because you have to just think deeper about every action and how that would disappoint in the triple effect that would get in your life. So it was one of the hardest decisions I had to make. But I could not resist the urge to be creative and to be free. So when I. So I did tell my parent, I didn't, I didn't want to. I didn't want to study science. And I ended up in a college, university. And there was a great guy there called John Bellwood who saw me, who saw that I had something. And through that I went to St. Martin's and coming back to St. Martin's I truly found myself. You know, I was still living with my parents, but I had to dress up as a very hetero passing young man. And then at the night time, I was a dancing queen. I was in the clubs in, in a wedding dress, in a, in a backless, seamless anything, you know, and all my friends, we all dressed the same. We just club kids. And I was living these two lives, but it was. And we're both so extreme from each other, but I'm a Gemini. I can find my way around it. But it was fun when I was in the clubs. It was fun when I was at school. I felt so free. It was beautiful. I had a great time. And I met most incredible people that also reassured me that I was not something to be ashamed of or I was not so different. I had a tribe of people that had the same mindset as mine that also fought to be in those spaces and fought for their freedom to live freely how they wanted. And it was beyond sexuality. It was beyond being queer. Yeah. It was just having the, the urge, having the courage to just be. And, and, and I'm so lucky to experience that because that's not the, the story for so many immigrant kids. Yeah, that is not, that is not something that is given or my level of courage. Some, sometimes it is better beaten out of a lot of immigrant kids, you know, they don't. They don't get to live or experience what I've experienced. And I'm so grateful to have fought to experience something else than what was pre planned for me or what was. Or what was my path that I had no say in. Yeah. God, sorry, that was so deep. No, that's so. It makes so. I mean, you describe it so well. And the difference between choosing what you have this huge desire and craving to do and be, and having something planned for you that bears no relation to that, it's a real. It is incredible that you managed to make your own path. Thank you. And you said that in Africa, two men could hold hands and it was not because they were gay. They were just friends and family. And you also said this interesting thing about how masculinity is overemphasized in Western politics and entertainment. And I wonder what particularly struck your attention about that. You know, I think when I moved to the uk, a lot of things dawned on me that I think I was much more visible as a queer person than I was in Africa. I think everything is so sectionized here. Yeah. Where you're queer, you look like this, you're this, you look like this. And yeah, I might have wore funny clothes like, you know, or I might just be the odd kid. But for me, looking back, I think I was just a creative, just a quirky human that. And I didn't understand sexuality at all. I was just a little bit different. I just didn't really know what that was yet. And I think in the west, we put so much emphasis on titles. And. That'S one of the big difference. And I did my papers when I finished Saint Martinson. This sexualization of the black body was my dissertation. And in it I realized when the west came to Africa and maybe some African people were not wearing. Were not so covered up, but in the west at the same time, there was so much rape. There's so much. Yeah, there was so much trauma towards women. And I realized that, well, in my societies, we might wear a rapper or a miniskirt. Boys might wear something quite revealing. But there was a level of respect for body. You couldn't touch a woman's body without approval. There was so much respect for a woman. And being nude does not so much emphasize sensuality or sex or total chaos. And I realized it was all the Western projection of sex on my body that I don't view my body that way. You know, I don't sexualize myself. I just see my body as a beautiful tool like everyone else's. Yeah, and those are some of the things I was talking about in my paper and some of the, those are the things. I also realized that when I was growing up I could hold friends. I could hold hands with my friends or I can see boys and girls holding hands, going out and it was fun. We all danced and do cute stuff. Even at the age of 15, I had so many hetero sexual friends. But when you come into the west like two 16 year old, 16 year old boys cannot hold hands. As soon as you know there's such a, there's such a box around it. There is already this title. Oh, you're this. And there was a sense of self expression growing up in the Gambia that was cool. And it was not rooted in queerness, it was rooted in being cool and people really dress up. And when I was watching television as a 16 year old in London, you know, those kids would be pointed at as queer or dressing and trying to be something you're not because you're from a different neighborhood. So all these nuances were really, were really crazy to me. But I found a way to navigate around them and I felt more exposed, but I found my way. Yeah, because you're the creative director now of Off White, the brand founded by the late Virgil Le Bleu. And I wondered because lack of confidence is quite a signature trait among designers and maybe it's why we make things perfect for other people. And I wondered where does your self doubt crop up the most? You mean taking this job? Well, it's the big. It's a huge mantle. It's a huge. And doubly so the stepping into the shoes of Virgil, who you had a lot of regard and a great relationship with and you know, to sort of uphold somebody's, somebody's legacy and create things through their prism. And I just wondered how that, how is that on your shoulders? It's a lot to take on. And I adored Virgil. Virgil for me was the freest black man of my time because he was able to express himself in all forms and he did it freely and he did it without asking for permission. And that's one of the, even the greatest thing to aspire to be. And he did that. He is the. I always say Virgil built a universe and we all were able to find ourselves in his own universe and create things for him and with him and doing those shows with him were incredible because I like, I feel like a four year old again with endless imagination. And so taking on that job, I, I was not so much. It didn't occur to me that I actually took a. I mean, you can't replace Virgil, so. So you can't really take the job. You can just continue in your own universe that you. That you had formed in his own world and. And letting your universe be the next chapter. Because it was. Because I'm sure he was happy with the work we did together. And I'm sure my universe played a little role in his own universe. And so taking the job was. Stepping into the job was scary. And it occurred to me how scary it was the day I said yes and the day it got announced. I really was so terrified. And. But I believe in time. I am so fortunate to create with such a huge legacy. And within that legacy, I'm finding my own language. I can only bib. And I'm so happy to have the courage to be myself within all of it. And for me, that gets me going. And he created for me one of the most incredible brand of my lifetime. A brand for the people. A brand that speaks to the people. And it is not based on elitism. It is based on a fair platform. And those are all my upbringing. Those things align closely to me. And I can only create honest clothes. And I can only create. I can only create with my true. With my live. With my lived experience. I cannot be anything else than Ibrahim Kamara. And I'm excited. Every season I get to make a collection. I'm so excited for the opportunity to make with not the most, but with the best people. And I wonder, when you dress, are there things you consciously try to hide or reveal about yourself? Not anymore. I am always wearing a short sleeve, like a thingy. But today, for some reason, it's cold. And I get cold so quickly. So I need to. Yeah, I need to behave myself. But no, I. I'm at an age where I truly embrace every single part of my body and me. I am. I am happy in my skin. I grew up in a space where people being this dark skin was not acceptable. You know, you had to hide. And it was made fun of. And I am at a point where I love all of it. I love how some people say you look African. I'm like, what else would I want to look like? If I love it, it's the best compliment I could get. It's the motherland. It is the origin of hope and beauty and style. And I come from a lineage of people that are so wholesome, and because of them, I get to walk this earth with this vessel. And I hope I am doing right by them. I'M taking care of this vessel the best I can, of course. And no, I don't hide so much anymore. I am. My body's my expression as well. I. I'm happy in it. Yeah, I'm happy in it. And if you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing, does it kill your attraction to them? Not necessarily, no. I always, usually when I've dated, I. I find a way to change the person's style in a way. Eventually. Just wear this little thing. Just wear this one. Just try this. It's gonna look good in you. I know. I start plotting before it's even started. Like, just get, you know, and then eventually, eventually you start thinking. I like personalities. I like them make me laugh. You know, it's so important to find joy in another human. And the rest can be worked on with all the work in progress. I mean, look at me doing the best I can. And as a stylist, is there anything that makes it impossible to dress a person that makes you lose your vision of how to make someone beautiful? I always think, you know, when I work with people, you get to have a day where everyone wants to make you amazing and everyone wants to make you look incredible and at the same time, we all just want to make the best images of you. And I work well with people that lean into creativity and respect it and are open minded and know that you still have the power to say no, but give it a go. Try. I love that energy. It makes me want to give you the best universe. And it, it becomes difficult when, when, when somebody doesn't respect art or respect expression or respect other people's talent in a space, then I'm not so much interested in creating because it's a waste of my time that I cherish so much. Because I could be at home making my mean porridge and watching Star wars, you know, and dreaming. I don't need to create in an environment where it's so, it's so restrictive and non collaborative. So those are the times. But I think clothes are like an add on. You know, you use clothes to tell the story, but the person is the story. Yeah. And how to step into that story makes a difference. And the attitude they bring to that picture, to that. I love a human that wants to try. I think it's the sexiest thing in the world, just trying and letting go of every ego when you walk into the room. And respect is the key part of my principles of working. It has to be a body of respect that we will cherish. And kindness. I. I love kind energy. You go to the world for kind energy, and those make the best pictures in my time. I don't know about before me, but in my process of working, I just think human. Humans give you the best when they feel safe. Yeah. When they feel loved, and when they feel like they understand, no matter how crazy your idea is, they can find some human link in there or comfort in that. And, yeah, those. Those are. That's how I see styling, anyway. Well, that comes across so much in your work. There's so much romance and empowerment in. Thank you. In your images. And, you know, they really. They go deep because of that. They're very. Thank you. Kind of intense in there. It's not just about beauty, and even though you do these incredible outfits, but there's something realistic about the extremeness of that beauty rather than just the kind of impossible look that looks great on a page when you open it. And you've also talked about having a unique uniform yourself, but having an alter ego, Senegal, and also Sensitive Thug. And I wondered whether. Is that. Are you showing that all thugs are sensitive? I'm a Gemini, and I think that's one of the most Gemini things you could ever do is have multiple versions of you. And Sensitive Thug was, like, a rebellious character, but that was much more related to my, like, early teens, like, just before 20, where I have been trained to be this very tough human. But I'm the biggest softie inside, and. And I just want to wear, like, a pink shirt and wear my shorts and wear my clogs and go save cycling. But I couldn't. I couldn't express myself. And then I had such a. You know, at a young age, I thought, okay, if I go to the gym, maybe my family would know I'm queer. But deep down, I'm just a princess, you know, trying to figure it out. So that was a sensitive thug. It was this kind of, like, dual energy that was just fighting. And I'm sure there's so many kids right now that are going through that. That stage in their life where. And it might not even be queer. They might just be a little bit different or just want to just have a different interest. So there's a. There's a pool, and there's a. There's, you know, there's this pool and within them, but they can't really express themselves. And that sense of Thug Seagal was the name I was going to go with when I eventually make music, and. And I did. And I came up with that name at, like, 22, 23. But I think IB is enough for now. But there'll be versions of like Seagal and Sensitive Thug, I'm sure in my work at some point. But now that you say it, I think my Zen for my music will be Sensitive Thug. I think it needs to come back. That's very good. And you talking about it like that makes me think of Part Punk. Because everyone sort of had this guise as, you know, just hostile, snarly, contemptuous. But of course no one's really like that. And it's always so interesting when you have portrayals of very harsh people, extremely cruel sometimes and you see another side and it's just. Well, it's like a shattering and a reforming. There is no complete good or bad. So I always really interested in those types of kind of. I don't know, just showing a different way of. I suppose it also goes back to that book on fear that we can cast people as frightening if we don't bother to know a bit more about them. And it is easy to know more about people. Absolutely. But also I think it's a space for you to express yourself unapologetically without feeling monitored. And I think sometimes we extend these other parts of our universe. And I know when I step into cigal or step into sensitive thought, into that mindset in a way. And going into that mindset, the ideas are so endless and what you can come up with because you're not just a version of yourself that is not completely, completely you every day. Yeah. So you can completely be lost in it for so long and you can just find so many things about yourself that you're so afraid to. To do in the real form. And I think sometimes you see somebody and you think by how they address you think they're like, you can't talk to them. But they've built their self expression and it's a comfort zone zone for them. And you can always break through it as you get to know them and realize there's so much layers of their self expression. But also even to them as well, there's more layers to them that is yet to be discovered. And they said, and we all have it. We all, you know, we're all somebody. When we are in the shower singing, you know, we are our own superstars and we're on stage and it's lights and you're grabbing the shower and you're like singing your heart out. But that is the most vulnerable space where a human is just being a human. No matter how they've been perceived outside and no matter how hard they are to themselves, but there's so much vulnerability in that moment that if Captured will be the best cinema experience. I'll go and watch it. Yeah, definitely. I'll go watch that movie. Because you're someone in the creative arena that other artists reach out to, to collaborate with and you've made hats for Comme des Garcons, you've worked with Beyonce on her cowboy Carter looks. And how do you feel about people's expectations of you? Mob is nervous. You know, I get nervous coming here this morning to talk to you. I get nervous doing a project. I, I'm not afraid to try, so, but I also respect art. I respect creativity to the, at the highest form of desire. You know, I, yeah, I respect it so much that I want it to be good. So, so there's a little pressure, but we're still going to do it. I'm still going to give my everything to it. And I surround myself with incredible people that critique and make sure I see the truth and I, and I refine things. I'm not afraid to make it better or to do it better. You know, I, I think there's no competition in creativity. It's a self expression. Creativity can be plural, but it can be also so singular in the sense that I can only outdo myself. I can only go deep down and reach for more of that source and pour into it. If I try to look at what else is happening, that's someone else's perspective and that's someone else's lived experience form into their own creative output and mine can only be mine. It's, it's, it's my take on things and so I, so in short, I'm not afraid to have my own take on it and, and working with these incredible people that they're so kind and they are also so creative that they see the work, they see the, they see the love and, and the, and the research that goes into it. I, I and the imagination. You know, I'm a big dreamer. So working on this project gives me the opportunity to just dream as big as I can and formed into reality. Maybe I went into, deep into answering that, but that's the best I can answer. It's good, it's good because you've launched an EP with Ezekiel, Yukimi and Eric and it's called Pop Romance. And how are you with being the front man and do you perform yourself or do you have your alter egos in the wings? I, I think for this project it's just, I'm just myself. And I'm so excited to. To have worked with Ezekiel who I've known since I was so young and Yukimi. I used to style for Little Dragon earlier on in my career. So I've known Yukimi and she's so kind and Eric. So it's been really beautiful to make music, music with familiar people where I felt I could be so vulnerable and, and sing my heart out and. And I was taken back to church, you know, singing from the age of four in the church and. And I was in so many youth choirs and. And it just felt like that it felt like home and, and just finding the courage to. To step into music. That I was my first love and something I cherished to my heart. And so I was just myself. But there will be lots more versions of me in other projects. But for pop romance it was also just the opportunity to make songs for Off White and to have four days in Sweden with Ezekiel and Yukimi and just, just relive my 4 year old fantasy so great of being in a studio with so many instruments and sounds and rhythm and. And I grew up dancing so much in Sierra Leone and it's been one of the best summers ever. Not just because I'm releasing this project with incredible for three people. It's just been the summer of romancing with music and. What are you wearing? What do you think I'm wearing? I was wearing a lot of like tank tops because it was so hot. It was a very hot summer. But. But you know, if I could imagine myself, I'm wearing a tutu skirt and some long skinny something under it and I'm shaking and I'm shaking and maybe topless maybe. And it's sweaty and it's drums and it's electronic and it's. I had a great summer. I danced a lot this summer and I intend to do the same thing moving forward and yeah, it was a great summer. It sounds so great. I. I love the ep, the songs. Were amazing and thank you so much. Means a lot. Looking forward to dancing in the shower, which I do every single morning. I love to put music on and then go for it and same. Thank you so much. IB Kamara. Fashion neurosis. It's been so fun. Thank you so much for having me. Means a lot. Thank you. I appreciate you.