Fashion Design Expert: How to Make Iconic Outfits & Make It Big in Fashion (Rebecca Minkoff)

Brand awareness is up 40% since housewives. - We're welcoming you off. Today you're an incredible fashion icon, but I'd love to go back to when you moved to New York City with no money, no connections. I thought I would show up, it'd be this glamorous experience. It was not that. I didn't want something that in three months, you'd be like, "Oh, she's still wearing that bag." And she said, "We just got the bag to Lindsay Lohan." - We are beyond pumped to have you here. What were you thinking? And how did the brand begin? - So a lesson my mom and still told me from the age of probably four when she was selling items at the SWATME was if you want something, you have to figure it out. So that's a skill she honed. She said, "No to me most of my life, if you want to figure it out," was like this mantra. And I moved to New York not knowing like you said anything, but it was like, "I'll figure it out." I'll figure it out. And that to me was my safety net. So I moved with a paid internship. I think it was $3.25 an hour to work for a designer. And I thought I would show up and be this glamorous experience. And it was like the first day was organized a supply closet. Then you know, go into the back supply room and ship everything. And I was like, "I can't believe I moved to New York City for this, but I was like, I know how to work hard. I was gonna stay quiet and prove myself." And I did. And they began to notice. And the CEO was like, "Huh, you're not just another pretty girl that he hired." That's what she said to me. And I was like, "I am not." - You respond. - I was like, "I'm not just another pretty girl. Thank you for calling me pretty." But, and then she actually became an incredible mentor of mine. - And how did you go from being an intern to starting your own brand? - So six months into the internship I said, "I deserve to be hired. I deserve to make $6 an hour." And I'd like you to put me in the design room and I think I've proven myself and she said yes. And then from there, because the internet didn't really exist, there was extra time because I was very efficient at the end of the day. And she would allow me the last hour or so of the day to take the time to work on my own mind. And I just started a very small collection in high school. I learned the craft of sewing, pattern making, trapping design. So for me, that wasn't the hard part. It was, "Okay, well, if I'm gonna work this hard, I want it to be my name." And so on the side, I would work on it. And just, it was like to me the most amazing thing I had ever created. - And then, tell us about after 9/11, you remix the iconic "I Love New York" shirt. How did you come up with the idea and how did it go? - Yeah, so this was pre 9/11. I was preparing for my first group show. It was a bunch of designers that didn't have enough money until we all partnered together. The show was set for September 10th. So I had the collection. It was five pieces. Let's just be honest here. One of them was an "I Love New York" shirt that I had cut up and be dazzled. And, you know, DIY was a trend then. And I sent it to an actress who saw my sister-in-law in it. And I sent it to her on September 9th, 2001. And I thought, she'll get it. And then, I'll have my show on the 10th. And the press of her wearing it somewhere. Obviously, what I didn't anticipate was September 11th. And so when she wore the shirt on Jeylenna, and he said, "Oh my gosh, you know, who's this designer?" And she said, "My name, that was like this wild experience where you're excited. You're also like terrified about what's happening." And I was like, "All the proceeds go to the Red Cross." And I found one Nase and E. Comer say, "Actually down here." Called Raven Style, and she would give me a deposit. I'd go down to Canal Street, get the shirts, and come home, cut them, so I iron on the crystals, and then give them to her, and she would sell them. That was how it worked. For nine months of my life. And then you decided to bet it all on bags. Can you talk about the switch up of category and the morning after bag? Yes. So I did my apparel line for four years. I supplemented my income by being a stylist for commercials on the side. So I did the first commercial for Project Runway with Heidi Klum and Top Chef. And I had like a little business there that paid the bills, honestly, while I continued to go into credit card debt to fund my clothing line. And then I had an idea for a bag. And the same actress, Jenna Elfman, came back to me and she said, "I need a bag for a film I'm doing." And the character is carrying the bag the whole time. So it'll be really good product placement for you. Again, pre-internet, there's just the magazines and TV. And I made two samples. One was for me to use for press for later. Once the movie came out and one was for her, I sent it to her. FedEx didn't deliver it on time. Did not make the film. And I was like, I guess I just purchased my first designer bag. I started wearing it around town. I didn't know what to do. I was kind of like, have that like, I want to vomit like gutted feeling. But so many women stop me on the street. They're like, I love your bag who makes it. And this was at a time when the it bags were wild, like Miracami with the artwork on the Louis Vuitton and the Stella McCartney bags and the Chloe Paddington. And my bag was sort of the antithesis of that. Like, I didn't want a big label. I didn't want something that in three months, you'd be like, oh, she's still wearing that bag. I wanted something that would be lasting with you, especially for the price point. Because at that time, it was $500, which is not nothing. And I was like, let me just see what happens if I sell it. And a good friend of mine who's now a men stylist, Ilaria put it in her store, satin and LA. And it blew out. And Daily Candy wrote about it. You guys might have you heard of Daily Candy? Oh, yeah. Okay. So that was like, Oprah, Daily Candy, those were the two levers that like could boom something. And overnight, it was wild. Like, they came back and said 75 bags. And then boutique started calling and then stores in Japan started calling. And I was like, let me ride with this. And that's one thing. Like when you get that wind at your sales, like hold on and do everything you can to maximize it. So that was the transition into bags. It was like, by clothing, we'll see you in a couple years. And when did you cut doing the celebrity styling and go all in on the brand? I went all in on the brand about a year before the bags. The last job I had, a friend of mine was working for a really big celeb. And she was like, come be my assistant. And I was like, I haven't been assistant as a stylist in a long time, but I'll do it if you give her the bags. And she was like, deal. And when I got to the apartment to go like, clean up her bathroom, the bags were squashed in a bin at the bottom. And I was like, this is it. I'm done. I am going all in and I am not going to just do this job anymore. You moved to New York, basically, as an outsider. You didn't really have connections. What do you think are the reasons why you were able to break into the fashion industry? And what advice would you have for other young women, especially who are interested in doing the same? Yeah, so fun fact, I still have all the business cards from when I moved here because I treated them like it was cash. Like I would, I was literally like, if I'm going to make it here and I know no one, I have to be networking. And not in that gross way that people like equate with like being like super obvious, but I was like, I got to meet people in the industry. So I went to any event I could, any free listing for something that was happening I was there. And I would collect these cards in that night. I would go home and be like, maybe this person could help me with X. And I just kept those things you wanted to help with. Whether it was an editor or a store or a factory that was kind of my focus at the time. I was like, these are the contacts I need to succeed. And so anyone who knew anyone in that realm was someone I was interested in talking to. Wow. And so you got these business cards and then you basically rung these people up and then how did it go from there? So I think what you have to think about is being bold and asking and being very specific with what you ask. So if I met someone who said they knew an editor, I'd said, would you kindly do an introduction? Or could I send you something to send to them? And then you start to just build momentum. And then it becomes six degrees of separation for almost anyone in the industry. My first showroom, my first publicist, all that came from all that networking. And I think when you are so excited about something, they get on war with that excitement. And so people wanted to help build the brand, even though literally I didn't buy myself in my living room. That's incredible. Tell me about a connection from your role of decks of business cards, the fact that you still have today. Oh, wow. OK. So Patrick Bradbury had a company called Bradbury Lewis. He was just starting out as a publicist. He worked out of this shared rental space on the lower east side. And he would say to me, team Vogue is looking for a Terry cloth jumpsuit go. And I'd run up town. This is when I had clothing. I'd run up town by the fabric, make it, get it to him. And he'd turn it into the magazine. And we did this over and over and over again. And then if the magazine would run it, they'd let you know I had three months. I'd give it to this website called Raven Style, Jill Lakata, who again is down here. And she would order a couple. So we had this system of like, OK, they want this go. Because I had a sewing machine and I knew how to make everything, I just would deliver exactly what the editor wanted. And that probably got me a lot further than anything else is knowing how to do that. And how did you get that in with him? How was he willing to give you all these incredible business leads? Well, I paid him $1,000 a month. And I was introduced to him through a woman who'd seen the clothing. And at the time, she was like, let's take a chance. Like, let's see what happens. So he was doing that. I had my outlet. And then the showroom that introduced me, Lisa, would just keep getting me in a smaller boutique at the time. And if you were starting all over from scratch, what would be the most important things that you would do right now? Oh my gosh. Well, today it's so different. It's like a blessing and a curse. I think your founder story, your brand, is a founder, building in real time, sharing that and then building community. It's really different today. I built the brand off of celebrities, stylists, I knew magazines TV, that landscape has shifted. It's gotten very expensive. Most I let's get paid to put their stuff onto their clients. And so I would just build a rabid, hungry community that is just obsessed with you and your product. And you have to be obsessed, obviously with your product. Let's talk about hiring and building a perfect team. Who was the first hire you made? What would you say the most important hire you made wise? And how did you learn over time to let people go? What did that look like? Oh, that was hard. So the first hire I made was I call them a generalist. They could literally just help you with the to-do list. And she was someone that could run up town, check on the factory, make sure everything was happening, to buying zippers, to helping me do an invoice. I think in the beginning, when you're drowning, that is an incredibly important hire, but they can't necessarily grow with you. And you're going to have that moment where you're like, ooh, this was great, but it's not working anymore. The next most important hire was a designer who's still with me today. She's my creative director of 20 years. I was drowning in the back, but what I began to see is I need to be more forward-facing. So she was able to help run the design room and run that team. And I was still intimately involved, but the day-to-day details she was taking care of. And I think when you're-- I call it getting broken up with. I was on vacation when our first employee resigned, and I felt like I'd lost a family member. And I used to think with, we're going to be a family forever. And that's not the case. And these days, it's even harder. And I think it's about working with someone, building a relationship, knowing they're going to move on. And hopefully, if they go upwards, that's because of the work you did with them. And so now I'm just always sad and happy. And like, if I'm really obsessed with someone, I'll try my hardest to get them to stay. But there was a woman who got double the money. And what could I do? I was like, I love you and I can't match that. So we'll stay in touch. I don't think it has, too. This has been something that, honestly, me and Sofia have learned so much along the way. I remember the first time someone quit, I was devastated. I wanted to go to the bathroom and cry. And Sofia was like, we've got to keep moving. Because also at the time, it was like, we were, again, we were a startup. They had gotten an offer from somewhere else. It was a triple the salary that we were paying them. And it was like, OK, let's roll up our sleeves and let's keep going. I still remember the first person we hired, though. Do you remember this? Who's now one of our designers on our team is incredible. We were in our sophomore year at college. And Sofia actually DMed her. Oh, yeah. And go over to start doing social graphics for our Instagram account. And she's now come on as a product designer to our team. That's amazing. We started off paying her like, what? A monthly retainer just for Instagram posts and built up the account in the community around fashion long before we launched. And she must have been a freshman in college when we first reached out. Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting you said that because there's definitely two cases, which is one, you hire someone, you take a bet on them when they're younger. And then they actually end up growing with you. And I definitely would say that we feel very fortunate. There's been a number of people that we've really had that experience with. Because even for Phoebe and myself, I mean, we've grown so much over the last two years. And so it's nice to see that that, of course, has been mirrored by people around us. [MUSIC PLAYING] And on a kind of similar train of thought, I was curious for your perspective. On you're obviously also hiring right now. You're growing your business. And what are the skills that you think that other young people who want to break into fashion should have to be able to be very effective in breaking into their first job? So maybe this sounds controversial. But I think you have to show that you don't have the typical boundaries I've seen some young people have. So it is the working late night, the working of the weekends. As a small company, which I still consider were a small company, there's just things that have to get done that sometimes aren't in your job description. And to hear someone say, well, that's not in my job description is like, uh-oh. That's not who I would have. I would have saved that. Oh, yeah, we've had that happen. They're not with us anymore. Or even like, I have to leave at five. And I think that I'm not asking by any means anyone to work all weekend and be available every night, how it used to be in the fashion industry. You worked to 11. My youthful era was like, you worked crazy. So we don't ask that. But I think we ask the bare bones of during a big event or a launch or something like that. And then I think it's that initiative. It's that I had an idea or I know this wasn't what you asked me. But here are some creative ways to do something. And then problem solving. I think when someone comes to you, it's like, what do you want me to do about this? What do you think about this? I don't want to have to think. You know, I love it if someone's like, I got this all laid out. And here's what it is. I think to me, those are the people that stand out. And then in terms of getting that first foot in the door, how do you think the people can approach that? I mean, say, for example, someone really wanted to work at your brand, how can they find an email? How do you go about that initial wedge? Right now, I know it's really hard. And I know that AI is like weeding out a lot of resumes. So I'll tell someone to get really creative and how you approach someone. So it's not just IDM do on LinkedIn. I saw you were speaking. I came up to you at that event. I handed you my resume. Or I said, hey, I'd like to email you. This is why I feel qualified. Or I learned this about you. And this is why I'm perfectly suited to. I also say you can't give up because I tell people to email their resumes every quarter. Because you never know when someone needs something. We're not hiring right now. But maybe in three months, I'll need a role. And so don't give up. And I would also say to be networking and schmoozing and getting to know people, even when you're not looking for a job. So if you're in a job, just keep that network open because you never know when you might need a job or you might want to jump. And then it's kind of there. It's same with fundraising. Always be fundraising. You don't need the money. And I'm sure you've felt that. No, I had a friend who just went viral recently. This is crazy. But he's been obsessed with David Dobrik his entire life really, really wanted a job with David Dobrik. Founded at David Dobrik was going to be at this airport, I think in Spain, camped out the airport for days. And then found David Dobrik was like, if I do this magic trick properly, will you give me a job interview? And he secured a job interview. And the video ended up going viral. And it was interesting because all of the comments were like just talking about how difficult the job market is right now or what lengths people have gone to to go get these opportunities. I'm another friend who flew to San Francisco and put in their resume after being rejected to get the interview. And so it's really, really interesting to see. I'm curious for you what's something crazy you've done to get your foot in the door, whether it was getting your product on a celebrity, getting introduced to somebody. I'd love to understand that. I think a fun story is in Lindsay Lohan's heyday, there were the things called gifting sweets. So people would pay, I didn't pay, 'cause I knew the owner, but you'd pay to set up a booth, the sled would come by, they'd take whatever product they wanted and leave. And so I think we're at the pier hotel. And I went to the bathroom. And in that five minutes I was in the bathroom, Ilaria, who was manning the booth for me, was like, well, you just got the bag to Lindsay Lohan. And I'm like, what? She's like, she came by, but she only stopped it like the two luxury booths. But I knew she needed the bag. So I ran out and I put in her hands right as she left the pier hotel and the paparazzi like swarmed. And that picture was used over and over and over again. And that was like wild and crazy. And like, you never know what happens, but that was like helped again, launched the bag. I've seen so many TikToks now of people doing that. They will go and find a celebrity and then they'll give them like a hat or something like that from their brand. And then they take a photo and then they use it over and over again. - Yeah. - Is there anything else you've seen from other people around you or in your network, like some hustle that really impressed you? - Oh my gosh. Well, I think Michelle Grant, they founder of Gorgi. I think her hustle is like, woo. Just watching how she's strategically partnering with Alex Earl or how she does her events and how she's tapped into community in such an important way. And that's not lost on me that she did that with lively before that, built a community even before she had a product. And that is something that if you're sitting here listening, you're like, I don't even have a product yet. Like build a community around the idea of a product. Like get people excited about what could be. And to me, that's really like exciting and fun that if I were launching again, I would probably do that. - How do people build a community? - I think you find a pain point. You begin to talk about what your solution is to that pain point and you bring people onto the journey. You know, like here's me day one. This is my idea. This is the pain point. I think maybe people worried about being copied or someone's gonna get to it faster. But I just think like, just try it. There's a million might feature companies. I think there's room. - When did it feel like for you? Like this is real. Like I'm succeeding right now. Oh my gosh. It depends what your definition of succeeding is. 'Cause when I didn't have to call my bank to see if I could afford to like eat out, that was success. Or when I could go on vacation and like not be like, can I pay rent? That was success. I think there as you become more successful, there's different things that signal, at least to me success. Now successes, I can be with my children and not be thinking about work. You know, and so I think it changes. But I think there's many moments, you know, when we closed down Green Street and had our first public show and used real women as models. Like that to me was incredible. - Can we talk about COVID when you were pregnant on the phone with your back. going through difficulties with business, you know, your business, it fell 70%. How did you manage during that time and what core decisions did you make as an executive and as a leader to get the business back into, you know, a crazy growth mode? So prior to COVID, my co-founder, my brother and I, we were being told you need to cut the team, you're too big, like, and we were like, everyone is so critical. There's not a single person we can cut. We had about 60 people at the time. COVID hits and you're like, okay, we can not in a gross way, but like, you have to go, you have to go, you have to go, you have to go, and you immediately see what's critical. And after losing every single account we had, which was the majority of our business at the time, we just had our website. We could only live and eat off of our website. And so the daily mind shift of not what it, Nordstrom, SACs or Neemans do, but what did we do today? And that's what we can pair, it bills on, became the focus. We had to do obviously layoffs, pay cuts, my brother and I, for went, you know, 30% of our salaries. So it was almost like we called it day trading. Is what do we do today? And how do we strengthen our relationship with the customer? So that was my goal and job. It's like, I need to entertain her. So I had happy hours every day, lives on Instagram. You know, we did a lot of podcasts around what was going on then. And I think it was just connecting with her, keeping her around, and then listening. So we get, we began to see spikes in categories that we weren't focused on. Sweatshirts with a little puff or earrings in jewelry, which no one had ever cared about. And so we said, okay, she is nowhere to go. So the bags might slow down, but let's really make sure that she can have as many puffs, sleeve sweatshirts as possible in every color. And like, let's really blow up jewelry. And so I think once you begin to pay attention to your own backyard, and we got so strong as a brand that when we went back and to regular life as we know it, we had the power. So we would say to stores, no, this is the brand vision. This is the aesthetic and we're not changing. And we did a lot of things that made us healthier, I think, as a business because of it. What are the lessons that you think still stay now, even post-COVID? You have to stay true to your brand, no matter what, despite all imitations, otherwise. You know, I think when you have a big order being thrown at you, but they want it in a certain color way, or they want a certain style done in a certain fabrication that you're just like, "Oh, that's not on brand." But look at the size of that order. It's not worth it. It's not worth compromising your brand and what people think of you in order to be successful. What are your hard limits around the brand? It must be this way or collection on collection. What is like the true Rebecca Minkoff flair that's part of it? So Leandra Medina and I many years ago were talking about this. And she was like, the pinnacle of Rebecca Minkoff is the most concentrated. It's where she lives in New York or LA or in urban city. It's the most rock and roll sort of bohemian. And then you get diluted to people who are not exposed to fashion. And if that dilution is a flip-flop with a stud on it, and you can close your eyes and be like, "To a girl in the Midwest, that's a rock and roll to her." Then that ladders back to the brand. And so from that perspective, with an aesthetic point of view, as long as it sort of rides that rock and roll bohemian or masculine feminine, then it gets my stamp. And then I think of the girl. You know, I want our girl to be excited about the product because it makes her feel confident or it makes her feel powerful. And if anything makes her feel like it's wearing her, then it doesn't get made. And speaking of business ups and downs, what do you think of, you know, we had the essence bankruptcy or now sacks? What do you think it says about kind of the future of retail, removing to something that's more D to see? What does your take on that? I mean, it is a solid mess right now. I mean, clearly that model is broken. D to see is not the perfect answer. It's so expensive to acquire a customer. Now you're seeing some brands even close their websites. And so your sort of like, is the future TikTok shops? You know, I definitely think live selling is the future. As part of a pillar, but I think pop-up shops, experiential shops, stores, if you can afford it, that don't even sell anything, but contribute to your house, but you had a coffee or a book or. Some red jelly beans there. I think it's a mixture, but I don't know that the current model of department store makes sense anymore. And who do you think are the gatekeepers of the fashion industry? Well, I think that's really, really changed now. And I don't know that there is one, because I keep discovering, and maybe you see this too, huge influencers with crazy engagement and sales. And you're like, I didn't know you existed. And who cares about you and why? You know, but they have their market. Like I recently, for a big press event, met a bunch of TikTokers in the Midwest that make crazy amounts of commissions. And I'm just like, wow, there's, there's just universes that exist. And so I think that, yes, there's the old guard gatekeepers, but I don't know that anyone cares about them anymore. Really? So you don't think knowing a vote, editor, anything like that? Do you think that stuff is important? I think that they have an aesthetic and a taste. And what I do appreciate about the vote was it had a point of view. And it was an edit. And sometimes you go on to a website, let's say at a shop, and there's just like a sea of stuff. And you're like, I want someone to tell me what I should have. You know? And so sometimes I feel like now with the endless scrolling, like I miss that curated, like, no, this is just what you need. That makes sense. Yeah, because I'm curious and we get comments about this all the time. But if you're breaking in the fashion, the real question is, who do you need to know? Who are the important people? That's what I'm curious about. Is it celebrity stylists? Yeah. It's like, who do you, who are the people? Do you think that people should be mindful of? I think that depending on your brand, the price point, I think just like when you see in the spy movie, they have the lines and the pictures. You know, I read an article about this very expensive pant brand. And in the article, it listed the five key people that wore the pant that then triggered that pant to sell out. But that's for a thousand dollar pant. So you as a brand have to figure out who are your listeners and leaders who will wear that and make your little spy bullets and board of like, how do you get to those people? Is it a DM? Is it a friend of a friend? Is it, you know, showing up at the right event and they're there and gifting them something? But I do think each group has their own leader. So I couldn't give you like a blank target. We're working on something right now. We're like, okay, let's test who these girls are. And you know, you'll see in the next couple of months, us come out with a lot of girls that we think fit the brand, that other girls like their style and taste. How do you find them? Man, a hand over there, smoothing on the internet. [laughs] [music] But I want to switch gears a little bit, talking about female founders. You started female founder collective. What is that? What resources does it provide to young female founders and when did you decide to make that decision? I was speaking a lot. I was on stages talking about, you know, female entrepreneurship. And then I would be listening to all the other women get off the stage and I was like, did we make a difference here? Like was anyone in the audience able to take what we said? Parlay that information and be successful. And I couldn't measure that. And I like to measure what I'm doing to see if there's an ROI, whether it's for myself or other people. And so I thought to myself, you know what, there needs to be a community. There needs to be some sort of education. All the stuff I didn't know. Like I was terrible at business. Like thank God for my brother who knew that side. And he could focus on business. And I could focus on design. About three months in my co-founder, Alison, why it was like, I see what you're doing. I know how to build this with you. Let's go. And so that's when we poured the colds on it. It really became an ecosystem of we want the best founders to be teaching newer younger founders all the lessons and the unsexy stuff. You'll never hear us teach you how to take a selfie. It's how do you run a profitable business? How do you fundraise? We have cohorts. We've taught 40 or 50 women how to raise over $40 million during COVID, not no less. And so our goal is education, community, and our goal is we want to make women wealthy. That is the, that is a stated goal. And we know that if you're wealthy, you're going to hire better, pay better, give women the maternity leave as they should have, childcare, all that stuff. Because we know that we have a different makeup and needs. And we offer cohorts by industry. We have workshops. We have community. And so it's online and offline. And our goal, like I said, is we want you to be successful. It's crazy. The statistics of if you put money in the hands, even like these micro loan projects, my mom works on like giving women the global south loans. If you put money in the hands of men, you actually see at rates that it doesn't typically transcend to the kids going to school. But particularly the person that has the most impact, if you give a micro, and is the grandmother, at getting, you know, making sure that that money actually feels the start of businesses, the kids going to school, and that that money actually grows. So I love this, you know, focus on investing in other female founders. I want to move towards fundraising, because you yourself have talked about, you know, not needing to create a unicorn business. You know, fundraising, oftentimes people fundraising when they don't have, you know, an actual workable business model that's actually profitable. That was one thing that was incredibly important for us, was making sure the last quarter before we went and fundraised that we could actually be profitable without, you know, raising a new round of VC funding. How do you think about talking to female founders about, should you go raise capital and sell a portion of your business, or should you not? I am very aggressive, and please don't raise money, until you have product market fit, until you have heat around your brand, and you have a great margin. And I say that because we learned it the hard way. You know, we grew the business at the time, we bootstrapped for seven years, and then it was private equity, not VC. And once we had that money, there was a lot of money. like Rodal Carus margin does not matter. And then the sentiment in the industry changed. And when we went to do our third race, it was like, "Lawyer, you're profitable?" No, we didn't know we had to be. We were just told to grow at all costs. And so having gone through that pain and giving up, you know, a quarter of the company to do so, I just tell women like, it's okay to grow slow. For most businesses, that's okay. We've been sold a drug the last 10, 15 years. You have to grow incredibly fast. You have to fundraise. That number means you're cool and popular. Even though what people don't realize is you've sold a big portion of your company. Now you have people that you report to. Now you have board meetings you have to get ready for. And there's so much that comes with it. So make yourself have a healthy margin, build a slowly. And then when you're ready and you have heat and product work a fit, yes, take some money, take some money off the table. That's also a different negotiating tactic. Like when you don't have a profit and you're trying to raise, like, they're not going to let you take anything off the table. And so I just think, you know, like we need to get off the drug. Main Street USA was really doing well for a long time. Pre VC, pre private equity being a trend. And I think there's been a lot of amazing businesses. Jacqueline Foo from Pepper, you know, she's bootstrapped an amazing broad company. Or there's all these examples of people that have done it. And that's another thing we do it. Femile founder collected like, if you want to be this is the path, if you want VC or if you want to bootstrap, there's all kinds of capital that are available to help you grow. And I want to pivot the conversation a little bit. And I want to ask about the real housewives of New York, of course. Tell us, why did you decide to join the real housewives of New York? My favorite line, she's become a friend. She was reported at the New York Times. And I had a call with her. She's like, did you have a lot of me before making this decision to be on it? And I was like, you know what, no, I had many calls with the producers. And I do believe that they felt like the show needed a pivot. And the way it was pitched to me was we want this to be eight entrepreneurial women. They were bringing on Raquel, who was an amazing esteemed art dealer, art curator. And they said we want to be fun, funny with a little bit of drama. So when I was talking with them, I was like, so kind of like sex in the city, but like with our businesses. And they were like, exactly. And I was like, this sounds great. Like who wouldn't want to show like a work card? It's going to be my 20th anniversary. Let me showcase the exciting life of a female founder, fashion, family. And by week two, filming was like, hmm, no one told me that the memo has changed. And it was not that it was hunger games. And I just was like, I'm not here for this. It's not who I am. And I don't need the airtime. I don't need the screen time. So I'm not going to fight to be part of this mess. And so to me, it was like, just get out of here alive. Just get out alive. And it was hard. But I learned so many lessons. And I don't regret it at all. But I left because it was toxic. I was watching some of the episodes back in preparation for doing podcasts. And I remember there was a timer this girl, a kind of distr or burngeo. And you were completely cool. Yeah, didn't say anything back completely calm. Is that something you learned because of the amount of bullshit you've dealt with in business? Yes. But I also knew that it would satisfy her if I freaked out. And it would validate that behavior if I like got angry. And I was like, I actually know how to play this. The fans disagreed. But I was like, I'm going to be calm. And I'm just going to keep my cool. Because also if I give her power, like if I get a critique from the New York Times, okay, that hurts. But if I let this little girl who doesn't know business, like make fun of where I'm selling. And I give that power. Like what does that say about me? You know? And so for me, it was just like, no, I have been through so much worse. I remember when we got our first like VC rejection, it was in our sea round. We hadn't done the pitch correctly. Someone just really didn't get the idea. And I call my mom crying. And she was like, babe, get up or get out of the game. Like that's the point of business. You're going to get tossed around. You mean to get rejected all the time, stop crying and figure out what you did wrong in that pitch or why they weren't the right person for the company. And then for when you went on housewives, do you think that it had a positive or a negative impact on the brand positive is that brand awareness is up 40% since housewives. And it's a direct correlation. And so launching these licenses is entirely because of the brand awareness. So we have Rebecca Minkoff. We have R M I wrote about the Minkoff, which launched earlier log as last year. And I don't know that that launch would have been as successful had I not gone on it. So while it did affect my mental state, I think it paved the way for a brand expansion. So that's the other thing is sometimes you have to go through something really painful. And then you grow from it. And it's sort of that like, I can't believe I had to experience that to grow. But I've noticed that the times where I've been in the most pain or in the most struggle or in the most stress, if you persist through that at the end, there's like a big growth opportunity. So just know that that's coming. I'm sorry, Rebecca. I think you need to go back on for the next season. I think you do. I think they're going to stay far away from me. I took a bullet for the team and tired really to talking about also, you know, brand awareness. Can we talk about the NFL club you did? How did that come to be? That came to be because I am endlessly like I said, you know, trying to stay top of mine. And so I as a designer was seeing the sentiment of women want great bags and now there are rules around stadium approved bags. They have to be clear. And they're really ugly. And I was like, I should design rat ugly rat up right. So we had just come off a collaboration with Aaron Anders for the Super Bowl jacket. And I was like, now I need to give her a bag. And I drove the team crazy because normally this timeline is like nine months. And I was like, we have six. Let's go. And I pitched to them. I said, listen, I think we need to do something around this and make it cool and make it something women want to wear. We launched it for the WNBA here at Berkeley. And it was great. And we sold out of the bags. And I think it just goes to show you when you give a customer what they want that is in a market that has been really not serving them. How well it can work. And how much of your business is partnerships? How do you decide which ones are worth it? I decide, is it something that two plus two equals six? You know, do they have something I don't? Amazon has amazing reach clearly. And so that was why partnering with them to bring this to more women was important. But the other times a little partner with, you know, in the past, we partnered with Morgan's family, which is like, huh, how does that make sense? But they wanted to give all of their women bankers a banker bag that was chic and cool. Because instead of carrying the canvas one that men played a play racquetball, could we make these women who were in finance feel awesome and successful. So to me, I sort of look at can these two brands come together with like-minded values and achieve something that kind of makes like that interesting. Like, oh, I wouldn't have thought about that. And talk to me about what's next for the brand this coming year with all the licenses you as creative steward of the brand. What are you excited about for Rebecca Minkoff for 2026? Well, I'm really excited. We're launching Iwer and swim this quarter. Then we have a really amazing collaboration with a brand I love this summer that I'm not going to talk about yet. And then we're launching lounge home, sleepwear, intimates in the falls. We're going to do a fun activation around that. But it's bringing the world to life, you know, I'm focused on the world of. And so what does that look like for Rebecca Minkoff and it's no small feat to bring all those to life. And if you think about the future in five or 10 years, what else are the biggest schools you want to achieve? I think there were again in a new world. I think with tariffs, I think with COVID business rules are being rewritten like in real time. And part of the reason we work cited to have these licenses is you're almost. It's a bad example, but like the gig economy changed everything. So as a brand, you're a lot lighter in your footprint with production, inventory, warehousing, and we can be really nimble with all these licenses. So I think it's fun to be able to think with I have now 16 amazing partners. And what's the work we can do to bring things to market and innovate and not feel the load of like, you know, you don't have this as a tech product, but like so many designers have like millions of dollars in inventory that weighs them down. And so for a light and leaner, how much faster can we move? You licensing division coming soon. Might have to make your product. Please, please do. We're back at thank you so so much for coming on the burnouts. We couldn't be more grateful. And we are so excited. Thanks for having me.