Faraz Shibli — Barrister & Adventurer On Crossing The Gobi Desert & Making Adventure Accessible

Speaker 1 Hello friend. My name is Dave cool. And this is Episode 22 of the Eat Your Greens podcast. I'd like you to meet for as Shipley having done more and more Speaker 2 of these Adventures. I felt that there was a bit of a bit of a gap. In some ways in the travel writing genre for people like me who were writing that travel people. Who were No summation background. For example, I didn't see many people writing about Adventure travel from our back that I didn't see many people on TV shows about it, you know, your sort of Ray Mears and Bear Grylls. That's that's sort of characters. The sort of person. We normally associate, I think with Adventure travel and Expeditions, so I thought from that perspective as well. It would be useful for maybe for other people to see that and then to think themselves. Well, he can do it. Maybe I can do Speaker 1 for us is a barrister travel writer author. And adventurer in 2011 age 25. He spent two months, leading camels, 1600 kilometers across Mongolia and in doing so became the youngest Britain to cross the Gobi desert on foot. As you will hear, that was to be just the first of many Adventures for as would embark on. In this episode. We talk all things Adventure. We also discuss how the world of Adventure and Adventure travel is marketed and whether a shift in that my And making the outdoors feel more inclusive rather than exclusive to ethnic minorities. The conversation starts with me, asking for hours. Why walk the Gobi Speaker 2 desert? It's good question. I'm often asked and the answers, probably quite disappointing to lots of people in that. There's, there's no romantic backstory. Unfortunately, behind the choice of the Gobi, or behind going to Mongolia. It was really more just to do with my love life circumstances the time. So my My girlfriend at the time. Now wife. She moved to New York for I think about six months for work. I was sitting at home twiddling, my thumbs and I sort of realized that I just started out in my career as a lawyer. And I'd gone straight through school, through University law school, and into work, with no break. No Gap. Here. Just, you know, kind of straight through without stopping. And I felt this can Nation that I was on a bit of a treadmill where I can now be doing the same job that I was doing them right up until I retire and have nothing really break it up at all. And I'd always have been quite curious about what else is there to life. What if I, you know, went down a different route and was an artist at some point, or a musician or an explorer. And so that kind of just triggered sometimes described as a could have early midlife crisis for me, but just a desire to see what else is out there and not just remain on this treadmill. Living a kind of typical London life. So I got online and I found a group of slightly strange people. A real sort of group of oddballs. It was a former paratrooper, six former pupil 17 years old at the time. Female bodybuilder, I think about 11 other people in total. If you were interested in trying to cross the Gobi desert and that was, I mean, it was a place that I knew very little about the time. And for me that was part of the appeal. I think just to go out and do something completely different and go to what seemed like me at the time. The most remote place in the world. Speaker 1 What's actually involved in Walking the Gobi Speaker 2 desert. Well, so we actually decided to take camels. And their job was to carry our food and our wall, sonar equipment. During the two months that we spent walking and about 1,600 kilometers in total. So it was, it was a long way. We didn't ride the camels, but we should have just used them for transporting those things. And to be honest. I'm not sure it was a good thing or a bad thing that we took the camels because on the one hand it was an amazing experience and just being in the middle of the desert. Leaving these camels, having a bit of paper to say, they'd be owns 12 candles, as well as pretty, pretty novel. But, you know, all that being great. They were incredibly difficult, especially for a novice to take care of, you know, we would have to do things like pick massive ticks off their genitals basically, in the evenings. And there were loads of ticks and certain parts of the desert. We would have to pick up their dried feces to burn for fuel for the campfire. All these things that none of us had any experience in obviously doing before and just trying to control them during a sandstorm, load them properly, so that the bags on their backs weren't incredibly, you know, waited to one side and left it on comfortable. So all of this was was such a huge learning curve, so there was so much more to it than just walking. It was, it was really getting to grips with with desert life. In so many different ways. Speaker 1 Here's a question. I never thought I'd ask. How does a camel behave? When you try to remove a tick off? Its privates Speaker 2 not very well, is probably the obvious answer. I mean, there were, there were a lot of people who dropped out of the Expedition for various reasons, but one of them was injury. And so whilst we started off with 12 of us. We finished I think four of us finished having walked the entire distance and one of the problems was people getting kicked by camels. So as you can imagine, trying to remove a tick, means getting right up under there and not making the camel feel particularly comfortable at a point. When Then at the end of the day, it's pretty tired as well. All that wants to do is is munch on some grass and have a nap and that obviously left us pretty exposed. Injury. Another thing we had to do with the camels was to hobble them soap to tie the leads that were attached to the nose pegs to their legs and night. So that they wouldn't just run off that they could walk around in Gray's without going too far. And that that also involved like removing The Tick's getting behind. Tiny little ropes to back their legs. And not only were they really tired by this time in the evening. But obviously, we were tired from having walk so far as well. I can be walking, just under math and the day in, on some big days and, you know, obviously that meant that we weren't fully concentrating, we were tired and probably weren't paying full attention to all the movements of the camel too. So, in short, the answer your question, it's dangerous. It's obviously pretty disgusting, not a pleasant. Task. But one of the many things that you just have to do as part of the responsibility of owning and leading a Speaker 1 camel. What came after the Gobi desert for you in terms of Adventure Speaker 2 like she stayed on in Mongolia for another month after crossing the Gobi. We finished in the southeast of the country. And I went a bit further south to the southern border with China. And I got a ticket on the trans Mongolian Railway. So I went up from the southern border with China to the capital, Ulaanbaatar. Got a van to take me a bit further north and then I started a village and hired a horse and I took that horse further north still to go around a huge lake called Lake of school and finished off near the northern border with Russia. So actually that that trip in itself was about the same distance as the Gobi Crossing about 1600 kilometers, but I did that in a month and my girlfriend actually join me for the horse-riding part of it. So kind of Havoc having done. The Gobi Crossing and having them spend some time going from south to North. I started to really kind of rethink what I could do with my holidays how I can make them more adventurous than I done before. And we had those experiences among gaudia. I really wanted to incorporate some kind of slow long distance, travel into my future holiday plans. So the next year again, with my girlfriend. We went cycling around the jungles of Northern Laos. And recently, 2019. I spent a couple of weeks in the Chang Shan mountains in Kyrgyzstan. So that was basically walking around the mountains camping living in the mountains for a couple of weeks. But also more generally from that experience in Mongolia. I really fell in love with it. The country as a whole. So I went back there actually about a dozen times over the next six or seven years. I think the next time was in 2013. I went to the northwest of the country where there's a majority Kazakh population. And the reason I chose there was because our our translator and guide during the Gobi Crossing. He was from that region of the country and we became good friends during the track. So I went to visit him and he put me in touch with some Eagle hunters in the Northwest. And they're basically these Kazakh guys who ride horses up high in the mountains and they've got Eagles on their arms. And they hunt foxes and wolves to protect our herds, and to get pelts to wear and winter drops down to sort of minus 40 degrees odd in the winter in certain parts of Mongolia. So so it's a real matter of survival for them. So that was, that was the the next next big set of trips. I did after go be Crossing and it's just continued since Terry. Eventually. I actually moved to Mongolia. That's how much I love the country and I ended up working for the And as a lawyer out there and although I was based in the capital city in nude and butter. I would use every weekend and I use all my holidays to get out there into a remote bit of the countryside to hitchhike, you know, in a province that's a few days away from the capital and just had a lot of Adventures that wouldn't have been open to me, certainly to do them. So regularly had, I still been based in the UK Speaker 1 and when you reflect on a decade of Adventures, what? It taught you about yourself. Do you Speaker 2 think I think the big takeaway for me, what I touched on a bit earlier, which is the life isn't just a sort of linear Journey from study to working in the same job throughout your entire life. And then just retiring. And I think in some ways society is actually set up to funnel people into that kind of model of life, but it doesn't necessarily need to be set up that way. And I think that's what These Ventures that I've done have taught me. I think Expeditions can take you to places that you wouldn't have imagined in the first place, you know, both physically, and in terms of expanding your imagination, I mean, if I didn't do that Gobi Desert Crossing in the first place, perhaps, if my wife hadn't gone to work in New York. I probably wouldn't even Bait Embrace that sort of Adventure travel lifestyle. Since then. I probably wouldn't have worked for the UN either, so, you know, Charlie taking months off, work and going on a jolly across the deserts actually done quite good for my career. So I've been culturally Expeditions, or just a really good way of shaking up your life and giving you some calls to just pause and reflect and reprioritize things. I think only the second thing is that I learned that I can be competent in a lot more things than I thought. And I think again, you know, having removed ticks from Camels genitals. Picked up that to and turn them on campfires, you know, it all started from there. I think that sort of experience, just taught me that everyone can at least have a stab at things that they know little to nothing about. I mean, when I first went to the Gobi, I didn't think of myself as an adventurer at all, and for the next couple of expeditions, at least, I definitely felt this kind of imposter syndrome of thinking. What am I doing here? I'm a lawyer who lives in London. I shouldn't Be, you know, in a jungle in that house, but you know, you quickly realize how easy people can adapt if they're in those situations. And I think that's since then that's been applied to the rest of my life when it comes to anything from, you know, DIY to grooming my own dog. I mean, you can see the state attorney looks pretty terrible. When I've had a go in with the clippers, but I give it a bash. And if I keep trying, and I keep chipping away here, only terrible in the end. Going to look vaguely presentable. I think with so many things in life, were encouraged to get other people to do things, or to pay people to do things for us. And, you know, people can be generalists. We can learn a bit about everything and that's another major takeaway. I think I've had from, for my time, doing Adventures like this. Speaker 1 And, can you pinpoint one Expedition, one day, or even one moment when you were at your absolute happiest, Speaker 2 A lot of things to choose from I think because being on Expeditions is basically my happy place, I think but possibly cycling. Let cycling around Laos with my then girlfriend in 2012, and I was actually carrying an engagement ring for most of the trip. And I was I was trying to find a spot to propose at some point. I'm sure many of us have been there before. Trying to find the right moment. Never did for multiple weeks. Just I kept coming across super awkward for no apparent reason. And then about halfway through our trip. She actually fell off a bike on a really steep downhill and tore her leg up pretty badly. So, we hitched the lift, on the back of a pickup. We got dropped off in hospital. She got stitched up and when we got back to a guest house, that's when I chose my special moment to pop the question and she definitely said yes, and it just No, completely washed away any disappointment of the day because she could no longer continue cycling on the trip. I mean, it just, you know, really turn that negative into a positive. And so, actually for the rest of the trip, we both just hitchhiked on pickups again, on boats on the river to get back to our starting point and took a couple of weeks to do that. It's very different tricks from from what we planned, but certainly that moment when you know, it turned the day upside down, made everything better. And was probably the Highlight for me so far. Speaker 1 And if that was the highlight, what's been the low light? The most difficult point on an expedition for Speaker 2 you or recently. So, last year, when I was in Kyrgyzstan, I started off my Trek in quite a remote part with the Tian Shan mountains. I mean, it wasn't on the established kind of walking route. And I hired some local guides from an expedition company. We had some pretty basic equipment certainly not stuff. That's lightweight. I remember at one point dragging a massive Kettle that probably holds about five or six. L big metal kettle on the back of my backpack just flapping around and one of the guys in front of me has about three dozen eggs in a massive box strapped to the back of his backpack. So, you know, it wasn't kind of magazine style done. Travel at all. And we were just lugging this really, really heavy stuff up and down the mountains, partly through the trip. We climbed a very, very steep mountain and we're absolutely knackered. And on the way down. We had a choice between either following this path of big, loose rocks to get down or trying to battle through some really dense vegetation. We decided to go for the wrong path. And the further that we dropped down the mountain that the past just became steeper and steeper. And then Water started splashing around my ankles turned into a stream. And then ultimately, it was clear that was turning into a waterfall and it became pretty apparent to me. Then that the guides didn't know this particular part of the mountain. Well, at all, and a storm came, of course, such as law. Heavy Rain started and thunder. And at this point, the Sides of the waterfall, were getting really Steep and it would have been very, very difficult to get out. But it was just becoming more and more dangerous to get down by the Rocks. We were slipping, we had massive bags on my back. So it's very difficult not to get trapped in between the rocks and there were only a few hours until sunset. So we decided that we'd have to climb out and to go up those steep sides to get away from the waterfall. So we were grabbing onto branches of shrubs and Hauling ourselves up from those still pounding it down with rain. So the soil was just so sudden that it was streaming away from underneath our boots and we were constantly slipping every few steps. And at one point that the ground just gave away from beneath me on the both feet, grabbed out and held onto a branch fingers and Palms were just completely cut. All this point. And that Branch was the only thing that was stopping me from slipping about 20 or more meters down onto this Rocky waterfall. And thank you Mark. My guy came along and he grabbed me and he pulled me back up and I actually did similar for him shortly after that, and we both continue to try to make it way down the mountain. Now, that time, my wife was pretty heavily pregnant back at home in the UK. So you can imagine You know, my realization was that I might not make it off this mountain to see the birth of my child to see I wipe again. So, you know, it's incredibly incredibly low point. I thought I was stupid. My was beating myself up for being such an idiot to think that I could get away with doing these crazy things and not having any repercussions. Actually, one point. I remember, just thinking, should I record a message on my mobile something so that if someone finds it, at least, at least, She can hear hear my voice at that point. Thankfully, it didn't come to that. We emerged at the bottom of the mountain, just after the sunset and we managed to set up camp and we learned a lot of things from from our mistakes and had some pretty difficult discussions that evening in the tent, but that was probably the lowest point that I've had on Expedition. Speaker 1 I think what tactics do you deploy to ensure you? Keep going at that point when others probably would would Speaker 2 stop. That's you apart from you know, there's sort of beating myself up and you know, think about recording messages that sort of thing. I think that's an almost inevitable down to that comes with that realization that actually this is extremely serious. And so you've got to get away from that to not get stuck in that rot. So I actually think that some level of emotional Detachment actually helps quite a bit that can sound strange in some senses because I think a lot of people nowadays want to We're just to be more in touch with our emotions. And, you know, I completely agree that most of the time we do need to be much more, emotional beings and much more touch with that side of ourselves. And I think sometimes it is useful in those kind of Crisis moments to be able to temporarily switch it off. I'm quite good at that. I don't know how but I often find that that really helps me to be able to just rationalize what my options are. Our without massively panicking. And I think also similar to, that kind of emotional Detachment is being able to treat some of these really challenging situations, a bit like a game. So for example, when I was sending that, that particular mountain in Kyrgyzstan, I was counting down. Every 50 steps coming down from 50 to 0, and then when I hit 0, I would give myself a sort of mental pat on the back, every time. And then I start again, counting down. 50 and as I kind of slowly accumulated more and more of these Pat's on the back, I it was like getting points in a computer game. It was something that gave me a bit of a boost and gave me a bit of a feeling of achievement while also allowing me to focus on the task at hand and it was the sort of perfect distraction from the other thoughts that I was having before that my family, my child that you lied concentrated on them. I would have left me as a kind of blubbering mess. So strange as it sounds. I think a bit of emotional Detachment at times and trying to treat things like a game even if they aren't, it's kind of a bit of a mind hack. I think Speaker 1 with the former being able to detach yourself and therefore, look at things more rationally. I guess I'm not a lawyer or a barrister, like yourself, but that must be a learned skill or a skill. That's beneficial in your professional career. As well. I imagine. Speaker 2 Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great point. And I've never actually thought of it like that, but you're completely, right. I mean, when I, when I started off in the law, I started practicing criminal law. It's the way that sort of most barristers get to cut their teeth because you're in court all the time. So there's a lot of advocacy and I was representing people, you know, often involved in not so serious crimes initially, but after a few years, violent crimes, sexual, This has both Prosecuting and defending and on both sides. You see things that you think are very unjust judges. Make decisions you very much agree with as do jewelries disagree with us, do Tories. And sometimes you get clients, who read, tell you what they think of you and it takes a certain level of Detachment while, you know, all these things are happening. Whether it's, you know, your clients case collapsing around you because of mistakes made in the witness box. Or it's you know, your client trying to assault you in the cells downstairs. I mean all these sorts of situations you come across as you know, there's a criminal balusters and and they all require a bit of emotional attachments. So I think absolutely, there's definitely a transfer of skills between the two. And how did Speaker 1 you become a travel journalist, as well as Barrister Adventurer. Husband father in a long list of things. How did that happen? Speaker 2 That was to start with very much a side job and it still is to some extent that I've always been interested in writing and reading about travel. Whether it was just my own journals, keeping them to serve as reference points when I go back to revisit a country and it just sort of went went on from there. I kept a pretty comprehensive diary when I was in the Gobi. We had a lot of time to ourselves in the evening and I recorded a lot. Vivid details that I saw a colors, the smells things that I thought, you know, if I look back on this in 10, 20, 30 years. I really want to remember. And when I got back, I should have looked at these Diaries. And I thought, what a shame if I didn't kind of Commit This to writing in some slightly more formal way. I think also just having done more and more of these Adventures. I felt that there was a bit of a bit of a gap, in some ways in the travel. Writing genre for people like me who were writing that travel people who were, you know, from an Asian background, for example, I didn't see many people writing about Adventure travel from my background. I didn't see many people on TV shows about it, you know, you sort of Ray Mears and Bear Grylls. That's that's sort of characters. The sort of person. We normally associate, I think with Adventure travel Expeditions, so I thought from that perspective as well. It would be useful for maybe for other people to see that. And then to think themselves. Also, if you can do it, maybe I can too. Speaker 1 And it's interesting, you know, because we've arrived now at the media I guess and if it's to be believed it's easy to think that the human race has never been more divided. But when you reflect on the places that you've been and the people that you've met, what is it that still unites us Speaker 2 is generally very much a willingness to help other people who are in need that is common across the world. And I saw that most strikingly I think in Mongolia, I mean, they're about 3 million people in Mongolia. It's country about the size of Western Europe. So it's very, very sparsely populated and there's not much infrastructure there at all. In terms of Road Less, who were not when I first started going and there are traditionally nomadic people, so that they used to traveling very long distances and they do that under a really harsh conditions mentioned before that in the winter. It gets down to minus 40 sometimes even colder. It gets up to + 40, + 50, + x. And because of that, they've got this amazing tradition, where if one person is traveling long distance in the country. No one. No man can stay at another Nomad yet. Even if it's completely empty. So they can help themselves to shelter there that can help themselves to food and to water. And so it's basically a kind of hospitality that's born of necessity and it's all about, I think understanding someone else's vulnerability and doing what you You can to help them out. Even if you're not there and something that you see a lot when you're traveling in, either on foot or by bike long-distance. It makes you really vulnerable sometimes especially in the more remote places. And I think often people recognize that and that often gets a very friendly response so often, I've been cycling somewhere in Thailand, and Laos, and someone's invited me to stay for lunch or or rather than camping outside in the cold rain to come. Sleep in a hospital to spend the night with their family. And I think actually people in this country also fundamentally very welcoming to even though it might not all seem like that especially with, with what we read in the media. I think to some extent, the media probably encourages a bit of polarization that wouldn't necessarily occur, you know, in day-to-day life. I think sometimes it encouraged us could encourages us to think in a bit of a dramatic Black and Whites of The facts passion, you know, just for example, if you need to think about what's in the news recently, you know, to do with migrants arriving on boats. I think people are either encouraged to think of people as desperate needy child refugees on the one hand or being, you know, sort of sponging economic migrants on the other and that there's very little room for nuance or Shades of Gray in between the two. I think that's partly because of actually the That social media has changed the way that we consume use and the things need to be click. Basically, nowadays. You've got to have that headline. That's Punchy and grabs attention might be controversial. And I suspect that, you know, in most walks of life. If we were to sit down with someone who, you know, we thought we had nothing in common with and we had a drink with them or we had a coffee with them face-to-face. I think a lot of those dividing lines would probably wash away. So I think that there is still that General willingness to help other people in need when you're, you know, when you're presented with that sort of situation, which the media, I don't think always necessarily Speaker 1 helps. Is it possible and you touched on it, you know, you felt that there weren't people representative of yourself in travel journalism. Is it possible that the world of Adventure Adventure travel and Expeditions is marketed in such a way that it appears. Safe rather than inclusive. And if, so what needs to Speaker 2 change? I think it does in many ways appear to be exclusive or exclusionary. I think, for example, just, you know, in one respect in the eventually Outdoors. Well, there's a very big focus on Extreme Expeditions, you know, my go B1 or polar Expeditions and that sort of thing especially on social media. And you know, while that's really entertaining Mmmmm and really interesting. And I know that Inspire some people to get involved inventors themselves, I think for a lot of people, it doesn't necessarily make them think I could do that myself, and it doesn't necessarily help them to find somewhere to start, you know, for kids. You've got Scouts, you've got Cadets and that sort of thing, but not everyone's necessarily keen on that. And what about the adults, who come to venture a bit late? I think in a similar way there's a lot of focus on things like really expensive kit in magazines and online. And, you know, you could be mistaken for thinking that you need thousands of pounds of high-tech gear. Just to go for a walk in your nearest National Park. So I think it's important to, you know, normalize and avoid over professionalizing Adventure. If that's even a word, you know, just into some for some people, they are Already doing some pretty great work out there. One example is Alistair, Humphries. I'm sure a lot of people are already interested in the eventual. World will have heard of him and he published a great book called micro Adventures, which sort of spent its own hashtag and it describes some really great ways that people could start out, you know, whether it's just swimming in a river nearby or climbing, a hill and sleeping on a bivi bag. At the top of it, this sort of cheap accessible Adventures that everyone can do. And I think, you know, when I was talking earlier about about people who look like me or, you know, people from ethnic minority, backgrounds be excluded from that sort of enter world. I mean that the whole host of reasons that it doesn't seem exclusive. Sometimes it's money. And I think that applies as much to, you know, working class kids from from all Races and backgrounds including white working-class kids, but there are lots of other ways as well that, you know, kind of when it comes to representation in. And medium. So on that can give an impression of being quite exclusionary. To people who aren't represented in those those media. Speaker 1 So what does the outdoors Community need to do to play its part in making it more welcoming to ethnic minorities and what other communities and groups need to take responsibility for making the outdoor space more welcoming. Speaker 2 Pink for the outdoors Community. The best way to go about addressing these you had on is just to ask people from ethnic minority backgrounds. And I think that in that involves getting more people from those backgrounds involved in decision making in the first place. So there was a Landscapes review in 2019. This is a publication which reviewed England's national parks and areas of outstanding, natural beauty and that Had many findings to do with lots of things, but including access to the outdoors for ethnic minorities and underrepresented groups. And that found that less than 1% 18 or 20 percent or something of the board members of national parks and areas of outstanding natural. Beauty were people from ethnic minority backgrounds and I think the best place to start, it's huge issue in this. There's so much that can be done but the best place to start to address it. It is to ask people who these decisions affect and by getting them involved in those sorts of decision-making bodies in the first place. I think that's a pretty good way to go about it. In terms of other groups. I think Brands and the media have a big part to play as well. I think that the first thing they can cater a lot better to people with lower budgets and that ties into my point earlier about the sort of over professionalisation. Sure, so, you know, let's say gear reviews online. It would be really nice to see some Gear reviews of budget gear as well as the kind of high spec stuff, you know, the thing, a lot of ethnic minorities. Lot of people from from ethanol, T, backgrounds live in cities. I know a lot of, you know, friends and family friends who live in into the inner city and don't have very much of a connection with nature. It's not good for physical or mental health. So think it's in. Everyone's interests for people not just minorities, but everyone to have a better connection with the outdoors and and money can be a real obstacle and actually getting to those green spaces in the first place. And also, you know, buying here and that sort of thing, which, you know, again, as I said, it applies not just to minorities but also to people from from underprivileged backgrounds, so I think I think that's an important thing that Brands and media. Even, you know, kind of online blogs doing Gear reviews can focus on as a point of change and I've touched earlier bit on representation. When I was talking about myself. I think it's really important for Brands and the media, to recognize the importance of representation, and the role models, you know, just just as a very basic example, I think if you don't have a family member or a friend who's outdoorsy, and you can show you how to read a map or just show. Oh, you basic Compass skills, then, you know it's much less likely. I think you'll be involved in the outdoors world and first place, you know, similarly. If you don't see people looking like you on TV shows and magazines and brand advertising. It kind of reinforces a little bit that impression that this isn't a place for you. And, you know, that's not to say that some people won't go out and do it anyway, but I think it creates a bit less of an encouraging environment. And I think in the past when I've spoken about this topic, this topic, and when I've written about it, some people get a bit angry and they suggest well, you know, there's nothing stopping people from going and getting in a car or getting on a train or whatever and going to these places and just doing it, and there will always be some people who do that, but I think a good analogy that I I to the pullout at that point, is to say, well then look at the case of women's football and that shows you how this really works in practice. Not many women and girls play football, at least, you know, in an organized sense for clubs and teams 10, 20 years ago, but over the last 10, 20 years, it's really been normalized. A lot more in terms of seeing it on the TV seeing it in newspapers and hearing few not commentators on matches and now all, you know, we're getting more and more women and girls involved in the sport and I don't think that's any accident. I think you re just goes to show how much of a difference Should convey. Speaker 1 I also this question as a white middle class. Average run-of-the-mill guy. You've only got to ask any of my ex-girlfriends to know that I am very much average. So I asked this question, I guess with an era of ignorance, but does that lack of representation? Are you consciously aware of that? And does that? That therefore, impact your decision to get involved or not, get involved, or is it more subconscious? And in some respects even more damaging as a result of it? Speaker 2 For me, personally. It's not been a huge issue and I think, you know from even just a few years ago. I didn't personally really get to grips with and understand the issue from that perspective. But you know, my experience is relatively a typical in that, you know, I was Born and grew up initially in Scotland. And then in a village down south in a middle-class upbringing, always had a Countryside of my doorstep. It have some of the places I lived was the only ethnic minority in the place and, you know, I had parents who were very encouraging in terms of, you know, getting me to sail, to write du skied, do all the things that that you can do in the outdoors, really? And and so for a very long time, I really thought you know, what's the L'm, all of this stuff. Is there. If people want to do it, just go and do it, but I think the more I've spoken to people from slightly different backgrounds. I'd realize that that isn't the typical experience for someone from ethnic minority background in the UK. And this is where I think, you know, issues like race and class and everything. They all kind of overlap. So, you know, my experience as a middle-class Asian guys can be very different from someone's experience who lives. You know, in the inner city as an Asian guy and I think it's similar with racism in, you know, in lots of ways that my experience of racism isn't going to be the same as someone who's just arrived in the country lives on a housing estate and has, you know, very little handle on the English language. So, I think for me, I've not personally been affected by that, to a great extent. It's certainly sometimes I will go into, you know, into certain space and we'll look. Cursing me that are actually. I'm the only non-white person here, but I think personally because I've had all these other access points. It's not been too difficult for me. But, you know, as soon as I speak to someone from, from a Savina City working class background, who's from a ethnic minority Community. They often have a very different story. So, personally, I've, I'm perfectly happy to listen to them and learn from that myself as well Speaker 1 and better representation of them by Brands and in the media would be one of the many steps. The wood over a period of time, do for the outdoor Community. What has been done for female football. Speaker 2 I think so. Absolutely and you know, it's not just women's football. I think give you, if you just look at say things like children's clothes, you know, there's been a lot of debate in the last few years about whether brands should be selling clothes for girls. It's a princess and clothes for boys that say, you know, future Adventurer an astronaut and that sort of stuff. And now, I think most people Except that, that that does have an impact on people, and it does sort of at least give them a view of what Society expects of them. And so wild, you know, simply not seeing any black or brown people on the Telly might not stop someone from getting into Venture. It does have an effects and it does it does shape the way that they look at that Pursuit and and whether they think it's the sort of thing that is for people like me or not. So so I hope that that people's views. And SE minorities in the outdoors will change in a similar way, to how we've been seeing. It happened with women's football with kids clothes and that sort of thing, to Speaker 1 what groups initiatives are, you aware of that are doing a particularly good job at encouraging, a more diverse open outdoor space for everybody to enjoy. Speaker 2 So as I kind of touched on earlier. I'm relatively new to the debate on to diversity in the outdoors because that's not really something that I probably recognize it as an issue until more recently. Ali, and I started speaking and writing about it a bit more of the last few months. So there would be many, many more organizations around that. I'm aware off. I certainly hope so. But a few ones that probably worth playing up. One is black girls hike which as the name suggests encourages black girls and women to get Outdoors on organized hikes and there's one called Mosaic Outdoors, which does the same sort of does the same sort of job for ethnic minority communities. General 141 called black to nature, which is run by a birder called my arose trach. Also known as bird curl on social media and that encourages in a city as a minority kids to get connected with nature and also a great one. I've been reading up on recently as the the Outward Bound trust and that works with schools and colleges and employers and youth groups and it funds outdoor adventure activities for underprivileged kids. It's from a whole range of different backgrounds. Speaker 1 Have you got time for five quick fire questions, Shawn still go for? Okay. So what's still on your bucket Speaker 2 list? Okay, don't, this isn't gonna quickfire. I actually try to avoid bucket list to an extent because I try to revisit places nowadays and I try to get a bit more under the surface of them. But let me give you a quick on certain recently before lockdown. I spent a couple of months driving around Tasmania and Western Australia with my newborn. Be in a camper van. I absolutely love the Landscaping Tasmania. We did lots of little day hikes around the island and I'm quite tempted at some point to put them all together. And to do maybe one big Expedition, a sort of long distance, probably on foot expedition in Tasmania. So perhaps, watch this space, Speaker 1 what would you tell your younger self as a result of your learnings over the last Speaker 2 decade? I think probably some good advice I have for myself that applies to most things is, don't worry. It's not that bad and getting started is probably the most difficult part of Speaker 1 it. What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given? Speaker 2 Probably don't sweat the small things. I have been known to be a bit of a perfectionist to the bordering on a CD sometimes, which can take my eye off, the big picture and get me to just, you know, hone in on things don't really matter that much. And I think a good litmus, For that is, will you still care about this thing in five years time or not? And will you regret it on your deathbed? If not, that's better. Speaker 1 2020 has not been the year that anyone thought it would be or certainly wanted. But what plans do you have for the rest of the year covid permitting? Speaker 2 For one? It's got to be raising. My now nine-month-old baby. So I'm sure they'll take up a lot of my time but continuing the You know, from the back of the, the Australia trip to try to introduce him to the natural world. So I'm getting outdoors with him a lot nowadays. I've got my kind of baby rock sack which he sits on now. So, he's a, he's putting my back out but getting a pretty good experience in the, in the, in the time and also trying to get my dog to stop to stop barking at the postman, which has been a long-term project for about four years. Not, not really working. But I think during a lockdown probably the best time to get. Get a hold on that Speaker 1 one. Yeah, definitely. And how can people connect with you if they want. To ask you any more questions about this Speaker 2 conversation. I'm so on Facebook. If you search my name, I've got a page there on Instagram at Ferris, Sibley's my username on Twitter annoyingly. It's at Ferris Shibley one because some smart person is squatting on Farah Shibley and hasn't tweeted once in about five or six years, but there we go, and then there's my website, which is perishable e.com and feel free to drop by the website and then send me a comment from the comments page and say hi. Speaker 1 That was Episode 22 of the Eat Your Greens podcast. If you'd like to find out more about us, we are at eyg group on the socials or Eat Your Greens. Group.com. Thanks to for as and thank you for listening.