Family Communication (ft. Dr. Patricia H. A. Perez )

[Music] Hi guys, welcome to Talks with Third Culture Kid Friend, I'm your host Marie. Today we have a very special guest. She is an international psychologist, consultant and speaker, another fellow third culture kid. She studied in the US and United Kingdom and is now a faculty in the Department of Psychology at Adler University. Thank you so much for joining us Dr. Perez or Trisha. [Laughter] I can call me Trisha, that's fine. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much Maria. I am so excited. One of our previous podcast guests connected us to one another, Matthew, who is also a psychologist so you guys run in the same circles. Before we get started on a bajillion questions that I have for you, could you give us your TCK timeline? Of course, so I was born in Kesson City, Philippines and I moved when I was three years old to Staten Island, New York so I was there for one year and then we moved to Clear Lake City, Texas. I was there for five years and then Bartlesville, Oklahoma for three years. Then London, England for five and then I was back in Bartlesville, Oklahoma for one year and then I reside now in the Chicago land area and I've been here ever since. So, yeah, I think very similarly to many TCKs, 18 different addresses before the age of 18, it was hotel apartment, hotel apartment, hotel apartment, so I count the hotels too as part of the addresses. That's fair. That is fair. I did the same thing, maybe not the apartment part, but like hotel and then house, hotel and then house. Okay. Or if we went back to the Philippines, it's like relative's house than our house. Yeah, I never got to do that, so we came to visit a lot. But yeah, that's basically my timeline. Awesome. So we have a lot of questions for you, but before we get started, the first one that I want to ask is what do you do? What is your, so you use the head of Department of Psychology? What does that mean? Yeah, so I am part-time faculty in the clinical SID program in the Department of Psychology at Adler University. It's here in Chicago. And also too, in my role as an international psychologist, I have global projects and I do speaking engagements and conferences all around the world. So the next conference that I'm going to be speaking at is at the Middle East Psychological Association Conference and Expo in Kuwait. So I'm going to be speaking there May 1st. So I do that. And then I also do dissertations. I support students doing their dissertation work. Yeah, I feel like I'm writing. I also do a lot of advocacy with children and families here on the national level in the United States. So I go to Washington, DC, active with American Psychological Association through a coalition or task force for psychology and schools and education. And so I've had a lot of writing, done a lot of writing with them. So you know, there's just a lot of things that I'm doing. And I think that the global part of it really speaks to how it was brought up. So it's a really great match as being someone who's an international psychologist. I never knew there was such a such a field, but I was lucky to find it. And I always tell my students and people I'm semi-retired. But for some reason, I seem much more busy now than what I thought being semi-retired would be. It looks like you enjoy it, especially if you're semi-retired. Yeah, well, I think the semi-retired part is because I'm doing what I want. I'm doing what I want and I get to work with who I want to work with. And I really do love teaching. I've been teaching for almost 30 years. I mean, I really can't believe it across at least seven higher at institutions. Predomely here in the United States. So I do love it. Predomely graduate students, but otherwise the global stuff is what I also love to do. Awesome. Speaking of doing the things that you love to do, did you always know that you wanted to be a psychologist? Oh, no, no. I did not. I actually wanted to be a dancer. So I was trained in ballet since I was five. And I actually took lessons with instructors from the Royal Ballet School when I lived in London. So I really wanted to be a ballet dancer. That's really what I wanted to be. How about it? But at the same time, I was playing the piano. So I was also studying piano since I was five. I also played the flute. So it was all of this stuff. So I thought I was going to go into performing arts. I started out. I don't know if I told you this, but I started out as a piano performance major at Northwestern University. So then I switched to psychology because I felt like, you know what, I am here sort of locked up in a piano room. I've had a full career in piano. And I felt like I needed to do something else, right? So I decided on psychology. And really the reason why to chose psychology is because I felt like as an eldest of four kids, to two parents from the Philippines, our root country, that I was like the liaison, right? I was the liaison between almost like the Western world or all the places that we live because I was going to school and interacting much for most of my day, then they did, although my dad did work with other peers from all over the world. And what their traditional values are at home. So I felt like a bridge and by default also felt like like a therapist trying to and also my nature, just like who I am. They're like, oh, you're so great to listen to this. You're so great at doing that. But I don't know. So I rested on psychology. My parents supported me in that. I promised them or I thought I promised them that I would get a doctorate. So as you could imagine that made them happy that I would be pursuing a terminal degree in that field. Right? I explained to them exactly how explained to you and everyone here and they understood that. So I was very fortunate then to get my bachelor's degree then in psychology when I switched because I originally was there at Northwestern for piano. Did your parents understand? Some of the answers, no. So yeah, sorry, I got you off of it, but no, I never thought I'd be a psychologist. No, I thought I was going to be a dancer. I think a lot of people, especially third culture kids who have just been so exposed to so many different opportunities have that tendency to be like, well, what do I do now? What next? And actually, I wanted to ask you because I also have Filipino parents. Did your parents understand what psychology was? No, they didn't really understand what psychology was. I think that what they really understood is me getting a doctorate, me going to graduate school. I think that they understood that and so they I think where they rest of their hat was doctorate. So, you know, and at that time, this was like late 80s, okay? I'm going to date myself. This is late 80s. They didn't really understand that, but they were very proud that I was at Northwestern. So they did, yeah, they didn't really understand that at all. As opposed to like, my dad was a chemical engineer. My mom graduated, yeah, my dad graduated from UP, Dilliman, with a chemical engineering degree, and my mom went to what was Mary-Naw, which is now Mary-M College, I believe, in journalism. And so those fields, right? Those fields seem much more people knew what, people knew what journalism is, like a B-A-Journless, people knew what a chemical engineer. But because, and I would say it's not just my parents, because people don't understand what psychology is, especially in comparison to the hard sciences, they always say, oh, you know, compared to, oh, what psychology, there's no real research for that. When you compare it to like physics, chemistry, medicine, things like that, or even law and business, psychology really isn't something that a lot of people understand or even pursue, actually, worldwide. The other thing too is that there's still a lot of stigma on mental health. Mental health, right? People understand physical health, because you can see a wound, you can see something, but mental health, right? It's here, it's here, right? And no one can see it and feel it. And so I think it's also harder. And yeah, it's also harder. And the other thing too is that a lot of the psychology training came from the Western world, or Europe. And so that's the other thing. Like, does this make sense, right? When I do my work globally, people say like, I think there's a sort of a love-hate relationship where, well, you started the field of psychology. We have psychology here, but does your psychology apply to us? So that's what I do a lot. I do a lot of that where I really support whatever the native psychologists are and whatever makes sense, right? And that's a whole nother conversation. Yeah, they say, but yeah, I mean, they, I don't think they fully understood it, but they were very proud of me. Yeah, speaking of the psychology world and the stigma, I think a lot of people who are listening to this have families who are of the older generation who also might have had similar thought processes as your parents and where, okay, as long as you do, as long as you go into this field, and I have a lot of friends that I talk to who are just doing what their parents want them to do because it's stable, because it's something they're familiar with. But I oftentimes hear that that world doesn't exist anymore. That whole stability, that whole, you never know what's going to happen. So even if they pursued what their parents wanted them to, you just don't know what that's going to look like. And, you know, let's say they ended up becoming a doctor. I mean, look what happened just a couple years ago. Like, would that be a kind of job that they would want to see their kids go into aside from the bragging rights, right? Which leads me to ask, because you're doing this work on, supporting families of certain origins, including the Philippines, and what kind of psychology you've learned growing up, kind of being that liaison that you mentioned. What does that look like? Because I have been struggling a lot, trying to understand why and what goes through my family's minds when they would say certain things. And especially being a woman, having all these different expectations that they have of me. And I'm like, no, like I want to go to grad school. I want to do these things. And they're like, no, you need to cook us a meal. And it's such a struggle, especially because I don't know how familiar they are with that world. Yet at the same time, they've set me to international schools my whole life. And what made them think that they, they were going to breed out a child that was similar to their upbringing. What are your thoughts on that? Wow, that's a really big question. So I'm going to try to tackle it. As my, I guess, my flow, my brain is happening. So as far as what are they thinking and doesn't even relate? Right? So many years later, I think I sort of understand now as someone who is older and has two adult children and a teen child, right? And being a parent, I'm realizing that their recommendations is what they knew in that generation. Okay? So number one, which is generational diversity. So if we're going to be talking the language of international psychology, we'll anchor it that way that it's generational diversity, which means like I am generation X, right? You're not, you're not probably generation X, like our two older kids are Gen Z's. So the way that they see the world and how they see the world of work and what they want to become is totally different from us, which again comes from past generations of what is some of the societal norms. So I would say what? They have the information to be able to guide us based on what they knew, right? Gender norms, societal norms, expectations. So number one, number two, I always wondered like how do people show love, right? How do people show love and especially parents and families like when I do work all the time. And some parents, they have different ways of showing love and getting their child out there. So that's the other thing that is very, every parent has a different way of showing that. And it could also be that their recommendations is also that they want to make sure that you're comfortable. So that's three. So their idea of what's comfortable to me may not be their idea comfortable to to them. So for example, I find it very interesting, right? Where there are, there are parents who say, okay, you need to get a higher, higher ed degree, terminal degree, become a doctor, become a lawyer, become all of these things. Just like you said, but cook me a meal, but you're going to get married, right? And so, and it's like, well, how are you supposed to do both things? Like how are you supposed to do both things well? And what? And then I would always think, well, why bother getting a degree if you're just going to get married? Nothing against just getting married, right? So I never understood that. Then I thought, well, maybe, okay? So we're going into other territory now. Maybe the reason why they want you to get a degree is then to be able to to attract, right? Attract the same level of person under educational status, okay? So then I'm like, oh, all right. But so, so again, this goes back to generalization diversity because our understanding of what that means, right? What are understanding of what that means could be like, you know, I'm doing this for myself, I'm picking my own degree, this fulfills me. But for others, it is you're attracting, right? You're attracting a certain person or keeping your social status. That's that's one. Or when you go to college, you can meet somebody, right? You're keeping the family name. Or those are those are things that I've seen and also have thought about myself growing up, wondering as the eldest of three girls and a boy. The other thing too is that, I mean, again, I'm just going to speak for me being the eldest. I don't know if it's all families, but I think it's many families where the eldest pays the way for everyone, right? So I'm the eldest and so I set the bar. So if I was going to a good university for example, or I decide I wanted to get married right out of high school or whatever, that then trickles down to everybody else, right? So there was there was a huge pressure. There's a huge responsibility and duty for that eldest child. And that's I mean, that has carried with me maybe not consciously, but that, okay, I need to do well. I need to do this, whether I like it or not. The other thing too is that in some cultures around the world, I mean, the Philippines is very high on this. We're very collectivistic, which means whatever one person does in the family represents everyone in that family. Everyone in that family, as opposed to individualistic societies where you just do things for yourself and your families in your the group is secondary. So in collectivistic cultures, the we comes before I individualistic cultures, it's I before we. So that is huge, okay? That is really, really huge. So that's the other thing too that you don't want to embarrass anyone. You don't want he up, right? You like you haven't there's like a board with nails that are pounded down, right? You're the one sticking out. Got to pound you down. So that you're you are harmonious. You are there supporting the family, but you're sacrificing yourself. And so it's such a it's such a dilemma, which I've gone through that whole journey already. And it was hard. I mean, I must say I'm not scared to admit it. It was really hard to really say, okay, Trish, what do you really want out of your life? And it took it took a lot with support, with a supportive system here, really understanding all of the places I've lived, what my family wants, what I want, also knowing that I'm living with my life. I think that that's where I rest in my hat the most that I'm the one living my life. And unfortunately, unfortunately, sometimes we don't meet eye to eye. I'm not going to be mean about it, right? I'm not going to be mean about it, but there comes a point where you also have to make your your wishes known. So I don't know if I even answered your question, but there's a lot, I mean, there's a lot of layers and a lot of reasoning. And obviously, everybody is different. But these are the things like personally and professionally that I've seen. Some things, not all. Yeah, everything you said made so much sense. And I think that's why at least from what I've learned in family therapy, that's why there's so much misunderstanding that happens because yes, people don't know those layers unless you've given them vocabulary to be able to exchange that with one another. So me as a teenager, I remember thinking feeling like I just had to do what they wanted me to do because I feel like I didn't have options. And as I decided to go to a different country for college, that is, I feel like there was already a gap between me and my parents, me growing up in different countries, all the more that I went to international schools my whole life. And then add on the layer of that when I went to college in Korea, there's just the divide has gotten bigger. And I think especially not spending time with them or being able to communicate with them consistently, they, we don't understand each other's languages anymore, both on the literal sense, as well as the understanding connecting with one another because it makes no sense to each person anymore. All I see is them trying to bog me down, being like, why do you want me to do this? I don't want to do this. And them seeing like, why can't she obey us? Like, we know what's good for her. That whole thing, if you don't have that kind of vocabulary or have that support system to talk about it, I think it would be really hard. I think there would constantly be friction between the two parties. Yeah, well, I mean, as you mentioned, it's also, it's also like, I know this sounds really strange, but it's cross-cultural communication within a family. Again, it's generational and it's also intention and expectations. There's also a developmental piece to it where as a teen, you're going from a child to an adult. And so there is a dilemma. There's already a built-in dilemma where, okay, and a struggle between, okay, do I want to, do I want to listen to what they have to say or how am I going to forge myself as a grown-up? How am I going to forge myself as an adult? And that can either way is sort of scary. Either way, right, is really scary. And so navigating all of that is a developmental milestone. You're separating, but sometimes it's harder to separate. I would say in collectivistic cultures, like families, because you move like this, right? And to then branch out on your own sometimes, it's not seen in a collectivistic society, it's not seen as a positive, right? It's seen as like, okay, you're not doing what we're saying for you to do. But in actuality, you're sort of going out there, which a grown-up does, going out there doing what they need to do, but you're still, so it's a different relationship, just like parenting. You're not going to parent your teenager or young adult the same way you do it to your old. But some parents have a really hard time. Okay, I mean, you've been talking about yourself, but some parents have a really hard time letting go or changing or changing the way they parent and to let their children fly. So it's interesting. I've also experienced this as a parent, right? I've also experienced this like my husband who's Armenian-American. I mean, we agree and basically on how we parent our kids all throughout, and I've been lucky because he's also a child development specialist like myself. But you know, there have been moments where how we were both brought up, come into play with it, how you raise children, right? The other thing too is that sometimes parents live vicariously through their children. So whatever they did not get, or they wish that they were, they wanted themselves to be, they put it on their kids. So for example, let's just say, you know, I've mentioned when you asked me like, did you want to go into psychology? Like, is this, I go, no, I want to be a dancer. That's what I wanted to be. Well, just imagine, right? I just keep pushing one of my kids or both all my kids to be a dancer. Well, that's not fair. So some parents unconsciously do that. They do that. They're like living vicariously through their children. And that's really, that's some of them don't even know that they're doing it. And that's how they guided all along the way. You know, like, maybe they didn't do well in school or they didn't go to college. So then it's like push, push, push for them to go to college when actually all of that is very harmful to their, to everyone's mental health and to the entire family system because what we really want from a positive parenting point of view or positive psychology point of view is we want our children to feel like they have skills and talents. And if they don't listen to you or they don't follow the actual directions then over time, like maybe in middle school or whatever or even in early childhood that you could have a conversation with them, like, why do you want to be a nurse? Why do you want to be this? So it'd be open, right? To be open to these possibilities, but that takes a lot for parents to step back. And in cultures where parents are seen here, the authority, and you don't talk back, right? You don't talk back to the parent that that's that's much harder. And so the development of a child and what they're they feel like they're good at could be stunted because they don't feel like they're competent at anything. Right? They can't explore. Even if they have those opportunities, like, you know, I had all these opportunities to do all these things based on my upbringing, he's being a TCKA, right? But you know, that tight grip sometimes can be damaging. Yeah. And I know probably the older generation, if they listen to this, they're not going to agree, but I'm a parent too, right? I have adult children now. And they've actually sent to me in a very, you know, in in a kind way, they're like, well, you've given mom, you've given me the tools for me to make my own decisions, right? And it's their life. So, but in some collectivistic cultures and some families, it's like, it's almost like a personal offense that what you've done and what you've become is also that when an actual child, you're a separate person. Right. Right. I had a conversation recently with one of my guests and we were talking about the safety to take risks. And what you mentioned earlier kind of brought that back and where if you don't give the child the safety to explore different things, like, you know, riding a bike and whatnot, they're going to be so scared of doing anything as adults. And it's really interesting because now that I've gotten into I studied a bit of psychology, I talked to a whole bunch of people, especially being trained to help families debrief with global mobility. One of the things I noticed, at least with myself, was that I never took risks. I was always, I always did what I was told. I think the biggest risk was choosing where I went to college. That was the biggest risk. But other than that, I was still like, get good grades, do what's right. You know, obey my parents. And I think that was really tough on them when I went to college because I started having my own life away from them. And I didn't have to ask permission. Like, I'm going to be hanging out with my friends till midnight. And you know, even if she said she was upset, she can't do anything about it. She's a country away. And I think it's healthy to allow your kids to take risks here and there within reason. But it's weird now as an adult. Now I'm trying new things. Like the other day, me and my fellow diplomat kid was like, we should do something like recreational or something like, maybe like a pottery class or like an art class or a big class. And I was like, why did I not, you know, why did I not think that this was a possibility before? So like trying new things. Yeah, well, I mean, I, you know, again, there's a lot of explanation for that. But I mean, it could also be individual differences of personality. So it may have nothing to do with like TCKAs or even parents or anything like that. It's also how you interpret things as an individual. So everybody, you know, another way of looking at is like the introversion, extroversion scale. Like where, where we fall on that or an amnavert. So being based on context or an introvert based on another context or an extrovert, that's sort of like what I'm like. So there's a lot of reasoning. And also, it's also the timing and whatever experiences you've had. Or even, for example, if you've taken a risk or watching perceive as a risk. So like what I consider a risk may not be a risk to you. It didn't go, it felt flat. And however we internalize that. But research does show that failure, right? Failure actually can motivate. So I, when I talk to students or even myself, when I say to myself, like if I come up with a challenge or a struggle or whatever, or I feel like it's a failure to me, I try to reframe it. At least in my head and my heart where I say, okay, this challenge can become an opportunity. So in risk taking, right? I mean risk taking can actually allow you to grow. Can actually allow you to have other doors open that you never thought. That you never thought was ever going to be for you. So allowing risks, allowing some sort of like autonomy early on. So that's again developmental. So I do teach, you know, as a child development person, someone who teach his taught like human development for almost 30 years. That is a milestone. Like a milestone is something that you're supposed to be doing at a certain age. And that's around two or three years old, two or three years old. We have the need, you know, every once like, oh, the terrible two. Well, the reason why they're terrible is because they want, they're not a baby anymore. They want to be able to exert. They're talking, they're getting potty trained. They're walking around. They look like little adults. They want to be able to claim things for themselves now. So that's that is a start, right? When in the other thing, the reason why some parents don't like their children to take risks, because they don't want them to ever suffer. Right? They don't ever want them to suffer. So just imagine like a toddler starting to walk. Right? Can you? So there are those parents who try to not ever have their child fall. Well, eventually you're not going to always be like, are you going to be walking, you know, behind, maybe a yaya that whatever, like walking behind so they never fall. But actually the research shows, at least psychology research shows that many times in life we fall and we fail. It's what we do with it. Like what are we going to do with that failure? What are we and risk taking as part of that so that we can bounce back? Right? We can bounce back and go, okay, what are we going to do about it? Or you're just going to shut down, right? So as an adult, you don't just want to shut down. You want to be able to get it back upon your feet, be able to have some resilience or grit to be able to move on regardless of the highs and lows of life. So those are those early teachings, right? Those early teachings that it's okay. Right? It's okay if your child falls, which is a risk. Yeah. I'm not saying being neglectful. But it's it's okay because then that when a child falls down, like literally falls down, are they going to get up? Are they going to cry? What are they going to do? And that happens across our lifespan. What are you going to do? Right? Are you going to, I mean, you could comfort the child, you could guide the child, but in the end, allowing the child to have autonomy, initiative. So they're working towards their own sense of self. Like this is who I am. Yes. So all of that fills into that. Yeah. I how do I frame this question? Because a lot of TCKs, they're quite resilient. Like they know how I feel like it's just in our nature to be resilient. But I think it also depends on the moves that we've had. So I've talked to other diplomat friends. And because our stint in one country is usually six to seven years, that's like a good time for us to settle a little bit versus where I know other third culture kids, especially military or business that they're they're there for like two years. Yeah. One year, two years, three, not six to seven. At least you had you had a set time for us. It was oil. I mean, I'm speaking for my dad were for oil. So we never knew. I mean, I think I told you like one, three, five, one, but it was very it was not set time. Yeah. And with that, I think if you add all of the goodbyes that you have to do and all the resetting of the different countries, how does one have resilience when it comes to that? Because I'm thinking about me as an adult right now, where I'm like, I'm so tired of life. I feel like I've done life three times over having moved in different places. I was like, can we just take a pause button on life? I'll rest for three months and we could play again and then, you know, let all the bills pile up or whatever. Because I'm just like, it's so exhausting. And I wonder if there's a if doing life back then and doing life now differs obviously. Like it differs a lot, but also how do you encourage somebody who's listening? Do resilience have grit? Oh my god. That's a great yeah. That's a really great question. I mean, I think that here the positive, I would say here the positives of living the lifestyle regardless of whether it's six, seven years or whatever, but living the life as a TCK and now an eight, right? That we were forced to adapt and change. And so over time, right, whether we liked it or not or whether it felt good to us or not, we were able to do that. Because we had to survive, right? So that's a strength, okay? That's a strength. I think we can draw on that. Whether we like it or not, we're able to do that. Okay, so that's number one. That's like that, I would say, is positive. Number two, we can also be very creative problem solvers. Because we would have to, okay, you know, we would have to like get into a new classroom, at least for me get into a new classroom, potentially make friends or maybe decide not to make friends, or have to be able to get to be who we are, at least kids, be who we are at that time. So we had to be able to quickly, right, be problem solved, be able to sense the situation, all of those type of things. So that's number number two, number three, I think acknowledging and accepting the fact that we lived a very unique life. So I know some other TCKAs who are mourning, like grief and loss, right? Morning, the fact that they live this way, you know, some of them also feel guilty that they feel this way, because they should feel privileged that they live this life or at least their friends who never live that life. It's like, oh, I wish I lived your life or whatever, but they never really understood the psychological tool that it took. So, you know, there is research on TCKAs, at least in psychology or sort of higher education, where I suggest that because we move so much, right? Because and it was uncertain and unpredictable. And or even if it you said like diplomats, six to seven years, you may not know the country that we are we belong everywhere, but nowhere. Okay, so we BBC 2016, there was an article say we belong everywhere, nowhere. So now I'm pivoting like, you know, the knock rate thinks about our life, right? The knock rate thinks about our life, which I think so moving away from the pauses, I think we have to acknowledge and accept now that we lived this life. Okay, and surround ourselves part of the resiliency and grit and what I love about like these podcasts and and community building is that we build a community of other people who lived our life type of life. I mean, I know not every life is the same, but they understand because that helps us move forward and go and validates our lifestyle, right? And it doesn't we're not apologizing to other people who don't get us or like, no, we also have needs and wants to as we grow up. Okay, so as far as sort of I would say like the risk factors or sort of the negative factors is that and I think you know this like I did this three part series with my with a colleague Brandon Kerr on TCKA's and the first one is home in the first discussion on our first webinar out of a three part series was on home and belonging that we're always searching for home and home is really not a place for us, right, a house, it's the people, right? Or maybe maybe the memory of being in that place, that feeling of what it feels to be home, safe, secure, steady, right, predictable, consistent, all of that. So finding that home, right, with people, I mean, for me, it's not necessarily a place because I've moved around so much, I feel like that is so interchangeable, but it's the people. Right. So for me, I have these support systems, you know, I have support systems, I have like my philippinex mental health professionals, I have my alma mater schools, I have people I went to elementary school, like we all have little groups. So I know some people may not be, may not like these groups, may not, you know, based on their needs and wants to, but even just having one person, right, like you you came from a diplomat family, like just having one diplomat friend to say, oh, you know, I'm trying to navigate this. Do you think this has anything to do with our lifestyle? Those type of things. So that allows us, right. So we're also knowing that we're always word and different category. We're always trying to find this home and belonging because we never had anything secure. Because of my upbringing, we made a choice. My husband made a choice that I did not want to have that lifestyle from our family. So we have lived in the Chicago and area, or I have lived in the Chicago and Eris's 1987. So that's a really long time, right. But I choose to travel or we choose to travel wherever we want to go because I wanted something that was secure. That's something that was predictable and consistent. Okay. So that's whatever we can also create for ourselves that feels safe. That is also consistent and predictable. And then our across across the lifespan. So our third, the one that we just did last week, our third webinar was on attachment and impact on relationships. So also to that was really how it could be hard for us to build relationships because growing up at least I saw my friends growing up where they did some of them didn't even bother making friends because they knew they were going to be gone in the year. But that also influences us later on when it comes to things like how we get along with colleagues in the workplace, jobs, right. We stay with a job, intimate partners, friends, things like that. And we all know, well, I don't know if we all know, but we are social creatures. So whether or not you just like to be alone, that's not really our nature. Our nature is that we want to feel like we belong, that we're seen or heard and understood. So our attachment style, because we moved around so much and it wasn't predictable, it wasn't consistent, it wasn't secure, and it wasn't safe because we didn't know what was going on. We grew up in chaos. And when I say chaos, it's not educational chaos, it's not monetary chaos, it's emotional chaos, it's social emotional chaos. So I think grieving that, acknowledging that and saying it's part of our life's journey will also be very important for resiliency and grit. So those are so my thoughts. I love those answers partly because it kind of organizes the things that are going on in my head when it comes to that. We're closing, I mean, heading towards the last part of our podcast, but I just had to ask this question about you said we need to mourn, we need to grieve that lifestyle of you know, that that K emotionally chaotic upbringing that we had. What are some of the things that you would want to leave our audience with? How would they do that? What would be the first step if they're listening? If they don't know anything about, you know, they just happen to step into this podcast and they're like, I understand everything she's saying. I can relate to that. My life was chaos. Then what now? How do I take that next step to be resilience? All right. Well, I don't know if these are necessarily answers, but I am also a psychotherapist, so that means I'm a clinician too. So I would say that it's not your fault. Right? That what you're going through is typical. However, feeling from our upbringing and what we've gone through, there's nothing to be ashamed about because even though it may seem that we really live this very rehearsal lifestyle, it's okay to also feel some of the things that we're not okay. Right. So I think acknowledging that is also really important because there's two sides of the coin, right? There's the great things about it and circling back to that mental health stigma that if we don't talk about it, we don't share it and you keep it inside, but again, I'm biased, then it's going to be really hard to then put a lot of your life in all of your life events and people in it into perspective. So I do that every day. I write in the journal, I'm mindful, I think about these things, and then I say, you know what? I'm going to try the next day again, but also surrounding yourself. I think it's really important to surround yourself with people who understand you in this way, right? And this is only one piece of our identity, but sometimes whether we realize it or not, it's a huge piece. It's a huge piece with a lot of the things, a lot of decisions we make, how we feel about things in situations, and how we feel about people. Oh my gosh, I think I just need to sit down and just process that. That part right there. I feel like we're just scratching the surface, so I'd love to have you on again. A second time, this was just so much fun. I feel like I have so much more questions, but before we end the podcast, yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's been such a joy, honestly, just to be able to connect with someone who I aspire to be in that career, you know? And so thank you. You'll get there. Thank you. Thank you. But with that said, is there any last words you would like to leave with our audience? No, I mean, I think this is a great platform to be able to have these, I guess, very heartfelt conversations as we continue to learn about ourselves. I think it's really important because we hopefully were all lifelong learners and we really want to be able to reach our potential. So I think, you know, thank you again for having me. Thank you so much. It's such an honor. I'm so fan growing right now. You can't even tell, but yes, thank you so much, Dr. Paris Trish for joining us. Is there anything that the listeners could look forward to? Are you doing any events? Anything that they could, you know, if they want to reach out to you, how can they get a hold of you? Yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn. So what I have a really long name, it's Patricia Iris Arroyo-Pettus. So that's my LinkedIn and I'm on Instagram. It's DR. Patricia Perez. So then you can see all the things that I do, but I did mention about the Middle East Psychological Association conference or presenting there and then obviously here. And then I just have some other projects coming up that you'll probably see on my social. So thanks again. Awesome. Thank you so much. I will put all the information down below you guys in the show notes for you guys to reach out to her if you need any more questions. But once again, thank you so much for coming. I hope to have another episode with you soon. Yes, that would be great. Thanks so much. No problem. All right, you guys. That's all for today's episode. I'll catch you guys later. Bye. Hi guys, Marie here. If you've been enjoying these episodes and want to continue listening to my content for free, check out my Patreon below. Any amount helps for allowing me to continue creating the podcast for you all. See you guys later. Bye!