Fall 2026 Application Vibe Check: A Deans' Roundtable

Good evening, everybody. Welcome to our live stream of the Dean's Round Table. I'm Dr. Sam, like welcome you all here tonight. This is our monthly panel. If you haven't joined us before. My friend and colleague, Tahira McCoy, who was usually a host of this panel, will not be able to join us tonight. She's ill and we're praying for her getting better. But I'm glad you all are here. Our deans are here. All six of our deans are here and they're looking great. Even though I wasn't able to send them their makeup and hair from the Seven Saves account, but we will work on that for the next time, but we're glad you all are here to bring the wisdom that you all have the many years. I think I added up roughly, we have over about a hundred, at least over a hundred years, total years of service and law school admissions to give you this information and help you along the way. I'm Dr. Sam Riley, as I said before, Seven Saves Consultant. I'm in my second year here at Seven Saves. I'm a former law school admissions director. My last title was a senior director of admissions programs at the University of Texas School of Law. Happy to serve in that role for almost 18 years, also as an interim assistant dean for a couple of years there as well. So I'm excited and it's thing for our panel to be here with you tonight. They're from all over the country, East Coast, West Coast, Midwest. Happy to have all of you representing every part of the country. Bismillah's topic is actually came from them, from our last panel, and they had a conversation, we had a conversation after that panel, which we always do, and they are concerned about you guys, which you probably are shocked by that, but they had been on the road, they've been answering questions since September, at law fairs and forums behind that table, you probably saw some of them there, and they can hear it in your voice. We all know that you have heard that it's gonna be a pretty tumultuous cycle. Probably you're feeling it already, maybe a little bit. You probably heard fears about it. Hopefully you haven't heard it from Reddit. Please stay off of Reddit. That's my quote for today and the rest of my life. But first, before we get started with your questions from you, I have questions for the panel as well. Let's meet our deans, deans, if you would please share your current school, your title, and the number of years you've had in admissions. - Hi, everybody, Tracy Simmons, Associate Dean for admissions and student affairs at Howard University School of Law, and I believe this is my 27th year. Thanks for joining us tonight. - Good evening, everyone. My name is Janela D. Roberts. I serve as Associate Dean for enrollment management at L.A. Loyola Law School in Los Angeles. The summer, I celebrated 20 years at Loyola, and I've had the privilege of working at two other law schools. So I think I'm the oldest at the group. I will not add up all my years. Thank you for asking. My name is Maya Krem. I am the Assistant Dean for JD at Mission and Scholarships at Loyola University Chicago School of Law. And I have been in law school admissions for a little over 23 years. My name is Bianca Mack. I am the Associate Dean for Student Affairs at the University of North Carolina School of Law. And this is my 18th year in law school administration. My name is Shawnee Buds. I serve as the Assistant Dean for admissions, financial aid, and community engagement at Catholic Law in Washington, DC. I am going into my 23rd year in law school admissions. My name is Shawnee McShay. I'm the Assistant Dean for Graduate Enrollment Management at Boston College Law School. I've been in the profession for 23 years. And BC is the fifth law school that I've been a part of. Happy to be here this season. - We have to have happy to have you as well as all of our Dean. So let's get started. We usually have a great first segment where we let you know about what's going on in the law school admissions offices at this time. So we do this panel again once a month. And we want to give you an idea as to what law schools and admissions offices teams what they're doing, what they're experiencing right now. So just a little bit of a history. Thanksgiving is over. Winter break is right around the corner. No matter how your colleagues feel, or our colleagues feel about being left out of the college football playoff, Notre Dame, Texas. But their work must go on. So let's get a picture of what they are actually experiencing besides the hurt that their teams are in the playoff. Dean Blitz, would you mind giving us an idea as what's going on in East Law School and admissions office in general? - Sure. Yes, we are kind of in between the major holidays right now. Some admissions offices have been sending out admissions offers, already admissions decisions in general for a number of folks who had the early deadlines. They've been notifying students that they've been accepted. So if you applied some place that was binding, you need to tell all your other schools that you are withdrawing your application. And if they made an offer of admission, you're not accepting that because you have accepted a binding agreement or applied for a binding program. And then other folks, again, schools are starting to get, some schools rather, are starting to get decisions out. So are, or they're starting to interview individuals who've kind of made it through the next round if the school does interviews. So we're kind of all over the place as far as where people might be in the cycle. None of the schools that I know of have had application deadlines yet. So there is still time to apply if you're in a position where you haven't submitted applications. But that's kind of where we are right now. Based on what things look like though, if you haven't heard a decision, do not fret. They are coming. - Perfect, thank you so much. We're gonna talk about several different subjects. As I mentioned, the Deans actually discussed this after the last meeting we got on a text and start trying to figure out ways, things we could cover. We're gonna try to cover as many as we can, but we've got quite a few, 'cause things were coming up. Again, we know you're probably frantic and concerned about different things. We're gonna talk about them to give you an overview of the application volume that's out there right now. Tell you where you can find it if you're not, you don't know about some things about applying right now in December, which, most of you may not know this, but a lot of law schools get most of their applications over the holiday break when college students are at home for that month or however long they're there. And then we're gonna talk a little bit about re-applicants. If you're a re-applicant, what does that mean for you? You probably have some questions about that. I know a lot of my clients who've been re-applicants. Have a certain questions and we're gonna talk about some of that as well. And if time permits, we're definitely gonna try to talk about financial aid, which a lot of us still don't know exactly what that's gonna look like, but there are some things that our panelists who are experts in that field can help you to start preparing for that. So we will be able to take questions from you tonight. I believe on the right-hand side of your screen, there's a public chat or a chat option. So you'll be able to just plug those questions into there. We will try to get to your questions as well as along with the questions that I have for the panel tonight as well. All right, great. So a little summary about the application volume. I looked up some information today, and if you don't know, LSAC provides this information for you for the public, some of it. And you can look at it to see what's going on. If you just use your favorite search engine, you can type in LSAC current volume summary, and that will take you to the page where you can see these stats. So applicants this year, as of yesterday, are up 22% from this same time last year, right? Applications, which is a separate category, they're up 22% from the same time last year as well. Test takers, LSA-T test takers are up 19% from this same time last year. If you click on the interactive part of that page, it'll take you to some more detailed information as well. Another cool statistic out there is US applications as up today, out of the 196 law schools that received applications of the LSAC profile or portfolio work system, 188 of them are reporting that they are up in volume, from 0 to 10%, 10 to 20%, 20 to 30, 30 to 40, et cetera, et cetera. But you can find all that information out there on the website. So again, finishing up Thanksgiving is over. Some of you are applying now. If this fits into your category, this question, you need to pay attention to this answer. So Dean McShay, I'd like for you to answer this question for the group. Is it too late to apply by January 1st? - Thanks Sam, for the question. Well, I think it really depends, right? It depends on how an institution runs their cycle, when their deadlines are. As Dean Buts mentioned a little bit earlier, none of us have really reached our deadlines. And so you're still in a position where it's not too late for many institutions. But again, you have to do your research and you have to make sure that you're familiar with each school's deadlines. So I don't have anything else to add to that. - Did you do it? Does anyone else have anything mad that they want to add? I'll repeat the question. Is it too late to apply if I apply by January 1st? No, Dean McShay now that it depends. Absolutely, 100%. Dean Simmons or Emissions teams being more cautious. So the word on the street, I'll just give you all the background. The word on the street, Emissions teams are gonna be more cautious because of what happened last cycle. They're gonna be slower. But I'm wondering, I'm gonna ask you all, is that true? Are the Emissions teams gonna be more cautious because of what happened last cycle with the so many applications and the increase in LSAT scores? Are they gonna stay the same? They're gonna review that the pace they've had in the past and decisions are gonna come out quicker. Are they gonna come out slower? What's gonna happen? - Well, this is not gonna be a very popular or happy answer. You are absolutely right. My understanding from many of my colleagues, some of the ones that are here with us tonight, but also many of us serve on a lot of different panels. And this space and what I'm hearing is that for a variety of reasons, schools may move more slowly. I mean, one, because of what happened last year and the increase in volume, but also the concern about yields. Right now the world is on fire and so there's just a large interest in law. And so while that's a great thing and those of us that have worked in the space for a long time, we're always happy to see more applicants. The reality is that we have to level set in terms of the size of our class and expectations about the employment market and things of that nature. And so again, we're in that really weird spot where we're excited to see so many qualified candidates come through, but the reality is that we don't have extra seats for you all. And in three or four years, we have to think about the job market. And so my understanding for my colleagues is that in addition to the job market, in addition to concerns about yield, in addition to concerns about class size and faculty student ratio, the other piece of this is financial aid. And really trying to figure out what we will do with our institutional dollars and what things will look like in terms of federal financial aid. And so being thoughtful and cautious about all those things are definitely leading to many of my colleagues around the country discussing moving a lot more slowly, being much more, I think cautious is the best word. I mean, I hate to say cautious because I think it makes people think that we're not going to continue to conduct our thorough file review and hold this, we're doing all those things. It just means that if we were to start off with say two to three hundred admits before the end of the year for the schools to do that, I would anticipate there will be some schools may only offer a hundred or 150 seats this time because of the concerns about class size and things of that nature. So thanks for the question. But unfortunately for the candidates, patients will be out of premium this year because I think you're going to find yourself waiting a bit longer than normal to hear back from many of the law schools. - Awesome, thank you for that. So y'all heard it here first. Or you hopefully have heard it somewhere else too, but you know, you just beat cautious. I know I had a client submitted their application on sole date and then a week later, they were like Dr. Riley, I haven't heard anything. I was like, hmm, one week. Okay, I thought I'd be talked about this before, but let me explain to how it works. It's gonna go through a review from the person in the office who's gonna check to make sure everything, your email address is correct. You didn't upload to personal statements, you didn't upload to resumes, they're gonna make sure your application, and once they do that, that's in complete status. You're gonna get emails saying it's complete. Then they're gonna assign it to someone to read, right? And that could be depending on the school, you're gonna hear that word a lot. It depends, it depends on how many applications that person has to read in that office, where they are in the cycle. After January, law schools are gonna be busy reading applications, so it may take a little bit longer, but always pay attention to that initial email from that admissions office. Giving you an idea as to how long it's going to take. So great, thank you all for that answer. Dean Mixade, Dean Simmons, Dean Roberts. This is a popular question. Is it safe to take the January LSAT this cycle and then apply after that? - You know, so I very rarely say no or yes to a question because by and large, it will depend, and I do think that's the right answer, however. Based on the experience that we've had last year, and I think most schools, I think you have to understand what taking a January LSAT where that puts you in the process. We're not gonna receive January test scores until later in January at best or early February, and those dates are published by LSAC. And that means if we're already up, many of us, five, 10, 15, 20% we heard from a colleague, there's school of 99%, that you are going to be behind so many more applications, and that's the part of the cycle that prospective students can't control, right? You can't control how competitive the pool is. So a test that's not released, a score that's not released until late January, and then you're just applying then, most likely it's not gonna be complete until February, and that's late for most of us, no matter where you look on the stream of law schools, we're gonna be well into admitting, well into scholarship thing, well into our process at that point. So I would recommend if you're taking the January LSAT, most of us have a space on our application where you can indicate, you're taking a future test, and or you can email the admissions office directly and say please note I'm taking the January test, but get your stuff in. It takes time to process your file from LSAC's perspective and from the school's perspective. So at the very least get everything in, and at least that LSAT score that comes in, late January, early February is the last thing to come in, and you can be put in order behind all the other people who came before you, to be read, and so that is a question I would definitively say, don't wait to apply, get your stuff in on the sooner side rather than the later side. - Great, thank you very much. So this reminds me of another question, and actually when Dean Simmons was answering the last question, I was thinking about this too, but your answer makes me think of this question that people ask a lot. Will you read my application even if it's the last one? How many of you will read every single question, every single application when they come in? Even the last one is read. Well, okay, we see hands from everybody, absolutely. You know, I would tell applicants because, you know, there is a certain thing as a diamond in the rub. There are some really good applicants out there, and we do all have goals as to how many we're going to admit, whether it's 500, 800,000, and we can, you know, there's one at last applicant is great, we may admit one thousand one, or they may be put on the wait list and admitted later as well. So yeah, if applications weren't read, we wouldn't have, there would be no need for us. They would just be able to put you on a spreadsheet, sort it, and just pick out everybody. But that's why personal statements, essays, optional essays, resumes, all of that matters. So, all right, excellent. I don't see any questions in the chat about applying, so we will move on to our next. So scholarships, that's gonna come up. I see that question, but we were gonna get to that at the end of our segment today. We're gonna talk about re-applicance net, or actually before we get into that, I did wanna talk a little bit about the given idea as to more about what's going on in your office. So, admissions offices have deadlines too. There are certain things that they're trying to get done, they're trying to read applications, feverishly for a certain reason. Most lawsuits, not all, but they are trying to get a most of their applications reviewed, so they can decide on who they're going to admit, who was going to be on the wait list, who was gonna be denied. Mainly with admitted students, one of the biggest deadlines they have is, they have admitted students days coming up. Does anybody have an admitted students day in March? Three-hand, four-hands, April, admitted students days in April, and the other two hands went up there. So that's one of the main reasons we're trying to read as many applications as possible, to get admitted students invited, admitted, and then invited to come to our admitted students days. Awesome. So, okay, head up a question, is there anything? Oh, wow, that's an interesting question. I don't know if our panelists see this question. I will read this one out loud. Is there anything that you guys read that makes you want to almost automatically admit or automatically deny an applicant? And it's almost an entire hour, but I will let my panelists choose one, one of their pet peeves or pet things that they like for either choice. Is there something that, not automatically, that's a strong word, but just give us some advice as to what you like or don't like about an applicant, just one thing. And we'll start with who's ready, Dean Buds. - This almost kind of goes into re-applicants a little bit. If you are reapplying with exactly the same application, most likely you're gonna get either the same results, so wait, listed or denied. And so I always tell folks, if you are planning to reapply, you need to take time to make substantial changes to your application. And just remember, it didn't work the first time and it will not work the second time in most cases. - Okay, can I flip that coin though? Because also for re-applicants, Dr. Riley, you mentioned being the last applicant, right? So if something happened and life happened and you couldn't apply until April, but you're really strong and maybe we might have been able to admit you in December or January. If you don't enroll in law school and you kind of recalibrate and apply earlier in a following cycle, I still think Dean Buds is offering you great advice. Refresh your personal statement. Maybe give us a fresher letter of recommendation because we see all of your older documents as well. However, if you were a really solid applicant but timing was your biggest barrier, then the fact that you're showing that kind of sustained interest in our institutions and you were reapplying and you didn't just kind of enroll and then call us day two of law school and say, "I'm thinking about transferring." That communicates your intention a little bit more to us when you've reapplied and you just couldn't get to us as early as you maybe should have in a prior cycle. I was gonna say, I feel like there are a lot of files that I read that I'm like, "Wow, this would be amazing to have the student here." And then I get to some other aspect of the file and I'm like, "Oh, my committee's going to say no." And it could be because I see numbers that are great and I'm like, "Oh, that committee's gonna be super excited." And then I go to the writing portion and I'm like, other typos and they didn't address the question. And then there are other times when I'm reading the statement and I'm looking at the resume and I'm like, "Wow, this is gonna be such a great student." And then I get to care no fitness or I get to letters of recommendation that really don't say anything. And so yeah, I feel like there are a lot of times when we're reading, I mean, we've all done this for so long. There are a number of candidates that we get super excited about and there's this one thing that just takes us all the way left or right and we're in a tough spot of like, do we deny, do we wait list? And so I feel like there are a lot of you that have amazing stories but you've not been very intentional with the creation of your application packet. You've not been thought about who you selected for your letters of recommendation to kind of back up the fact that maybe one of your indicators is a little more weak than the other or you've not done a good job of explaining why your grades dip so much in your junior and senior year. And so we have no idea, you know, it could be that you were partying or it could be that you had an undiagnosed medical condition that you couldn't get treatment for and which did things turn around. I mean, you know, so don't leave us hanging. I think it's really comes down to, you know, we see a lot of amazing candidates applying to law school right now but the reality is that we don't have them in fall of you. So don't give us a reason to quickly put you on the divine wait list for it pile but definitely try to do your best to share your story, highlight your strengths so that we're kind of rooting for you. I mean, I definitely find myself in that space of starting off with, I want to admit this person and your job is to basically keep me engaged so that I want to keep fighting for you as opposed to I'm reading it and I'm excited and then it's like, it goes completely left because you say, oh, and I can't wait to go to Harvard and Hofstra and you're applying to Howard. Like that's a pretty easy, like that, I'm gonna go ahead and just close this pile out and just say no. You know what I mean? So I feel like it's a great question because I feel like the group of people you're talking to tonight, I feel like we're all, we love what we do on a lot of different ways but sometimes you all as candidates make it really easy for us to advocate for you and sometimes you make it really easy for us to kind of say like, you know, so. And that was a facial expression for those who will see this day. - Awesome, thank you. Before we go on, I do have something new with that I create creative as far as I know. It's unique to me, but if you guys have been using it, if you haven't feel free to take this and take it. I created it this year to explain to my clients that when we first log into Unite, the system to review your application, it's like a spreadsheet and so I see your name, your highest LSAT score, your GPA, your school. From that get go, this is the thing. I have an admin meter, admin way less deny. And I kind of have an idea before I even go and I start reading your application, I look at your resume and it may go, ooh. Or it could go, ooh. So every part of your application matters and it can make me sway my decision as Dean Simba said. Thank you so much for that. Feel free to use that admin meter for your own phone, and use that. Okay, anyone else want to add their share of positive thing, automatic negative or positive thing. - I just had that following directions, right? So each school has specific directions that are laid out clearly in the application instructions as to what each of us are looking for in their application and things like, okay, requesting a two page personal statement that's double space and you submit a four page statement that's single space or there are specific things in the essay prompt that we are looking for and not looking for and you include or do not include that information. All of that matters and these, you know, attention to detail, all of these things are items that Michigan committee is reading for when they're going through the application. So take that additional time to just make sure that you are reading the instructions before completing the app and submitting the information to your school. - Sam, I'll add to it. Really kind of thinking along the lines of professionalism. It's rare that I immediately jump to either of those conclusions, but the reality is that if students are not using their best professional judgment, if, you know, and I think professional judgment is included in every aspect of the application. So then I'll shift 'cause I'm gonna assume you all know better and that you're using your best professional judgment and developing your resume and your narratives for your statements and things of that nature. So I'm gonna shift over to really just your conduct in navigating through the admissions process. I mean, we have a, it's no secret. There are a lot of applicants in this year's pool, very similar to last year's pool. And I think sometimes the level of impatience that students experience and express through the admissions process. I think sometimes candidates, you know, sometimes leave their judgment at the front door. And as you're navigating through how you, you know, deal with different representatives of each school, how you present, when you visit a school, all of these things matter. I think the closest that I have ever gotten to immediately taking, you know, making an unfavorable decision is when, and this isn't my present school. So thank you, knock on wood. But when a student really came to campus and did not use their best professional judgment, there was an attitude, there was an air that they were better than every other student that was on the tour. And it just left a really bad taste in everyone's mouth who experienced that candidate, right? That is the closest that I have ever been to just be like, absolutely not, right? I think ultimately the student didn't even actually end up applying, right? But I know that I was looking from that experience and that engagement, that was someone that was just not really meant to be a part of my community, okay? So use your best professional judgment. Leave the attitude at the door and understand that we are here to be your advocates and to help you navigate through the process. We're a resource for you. We're not your adversaries. So I'll leave it in there. - Really quickly, I think if you're using humor, you're balancing on the edge of a blade. And I don't think this is true only of a viola. Law professors, who the faculty who make up right wishes committee, these are not hilarious people. They are not reading your personal statement looking for the funniest thing encounter that they've had in that day. They're looking for a professional judgment. They're looking for intentionality of thought. They're looking that you're paying attention to detail, all things that my colleagues have said. And then secondly, don't waste the opportunity in submitting optional statements to repeat what you said elsewhere, right? It's a waste of real estate. I'm gonna give you three. I'm not a fan of woe is me stories with no point. Like when we think about our favorite people, actors, comedians, athletes. We love their story because they got to the mountain. We like hearing about their journey because there is a recognition of, I've gone through all of this, but I still, whatever the top of the mountain may be, that should be the point. The point shouldn't be just to get me to cry. I don't like crying. So then it puts me in a bad mood if you're just trying to get me sad with no point to it. The point of your essay should be that you persevere, that you're extremely motivated, that you persist, that you have grit, that you have determination. And when you frame it in that way, I think it reads better. So those are my quick ones because you have a lot of questions. - Well, yeah, do the time. Yeah, I see the questions. I'm gonna try to get to those at the end if we can, if we can. We're gonna move on to re-applicants. I think, yeah, Dean, but you actually gave me the re-applicants segue. I appreciate that. And with that, I will ask you this question. How do law schools look at re-applicants? - Generally speaking, hopefully we've had an opportunity to speak to the individual after the last cycle, whether they were waitlisted or denied. We allow students to reach out to us during the summer to kind of get feedback on their file. And hopefully they've kind of taken to heed some of the suggestions that we've made. But yes, I think Dean Mack had mentioned, we had some applicants later in last cycle and had they applied earlier, we would have been delighted to admit them. And so as they applied early this cycle, we were able to give them a favorable response. But that's not to say that that's the same for every re-applicant. Again, it's gonna just kind of depend. You can see everybody's, in many cases, everyone's statistics went out based, you know, median LSAT GPA. And so as we're looking to bring in the next class, we're keeping that in mind too. And so I've seen, and I'm sure my colleagues have as well, just the quality of the application pool has gone up early this cycle. So we're just kind of like, wait a minute. We need to be cautious about the way that we're just admitting in general. So it's gonna be an interesting cycle. But yes, if you are a re-applicant, the best advice that we can give you is to try to apply earlier in the cycle, meet with the admissions teams to find out ways that you can strengthen your application before you hit submit. - Excellent, thank you for that. This is the question I get a lot. And I usually just tell them how it worked at Texas Law. And if each can go down the line or we can just raise our hand. Do, will you see the, if I reapply to your school, this is the second time applying back to back years, will you see my previous application materials? They're nodding, yes, everybody's saying yes, everybody's raising their hands and saying yes, they will. - Okay, very good. That's a good point. I have a question, Dean Mack. So if I apply earlier as Dean, but you see my previous materials, perhaps the personal statement is different, but nothing else may change, but something else may have changed or it may not have changed. Do I really have a chance of being admitted again, or be admitted the second time around? - It depends, it depends. But I would say even three to six months later, there should be some growth, there should be some update that you can share with us. So even if it's adjusting that resume and making sure that the date's line up, or let us know what you were doing in the summer in between, or like I said, an updated letter of recommendation or an updated LSAT score, if your LSAT was lagging a little bit. So there isn't a requirement that your application materials have to change, but as Dean Butts stated earlier, if you weren't successful, and timing wasn't your only barrier to entry, sending us the same materials again is maybe not, like that professional judgment that Dean McStage has talked about. Maybe that's not your best judgment, right? If you didn't get a favorable response, the first time around, you just want to refresh things. It doesn't, I'm not saying you're going to remake yourself in three to six months, but if there are little things that you can do to polish your materials that much more, and to make yourself that much more competitive as an applicant coupled with the earlier timeframe, why would you not take the opportunity to try to hit it out of the park and do this while it's in your power, instead of hoping and praying that we're going to just gift you with the response you want, without you kind of forcing our hand. - Excellent, thank you, thank you, thank you. We're going to, actually I have one question about the re-applicant part. And it's a step my mind for a split second, I'll circle back. So let's move on to a, we have about 26 more minutes to a popular subject that a lot of people are wondering about because a lot of students have student loan debt, and they've heard that the student loan maximums have changed a little, a lot of uncertainty about what's going to happen. This question is for Dean Simmons, I consider one of our top financial aid gurus on this panel and especially in the business. So I'm sorry to put that pressure on you, but you do know a lot, and you're good. So it's well known amongst all of us. So Dean Simmons, what should applicants be doing in relation to financial aid? Should they be researching their options or house? What should they be doing? - So the first thing I would do, it was I would visit the Access Flex website for events for students. They have a number of webinars that are basically focusing on the different issues that are heavy risen as it relates to all the policy changes here in DC. And so I think there's one on Wednesday, December 10th, which happens to be Dean Buts Park Day and I lay grandfather's birthday. But there's one on Wednesday that you can participate in, they're free, they're virtual. And they do a really good job of helping you understand what your options are. There's also some information for those of you that are on LinkedIn. I would start following and then because they're doing a lot of policy updates regularly to talk about changes that are happening in the policy space as it relates to financial aid. The other thing is I would definitely take a look at the financial aid pages for the law school is very interested in. I would also pay attention to what the law school at Michigan Council is offering in the financial aid space. They just hired a former director of financial aid who came from Catholic University here in DC who is a phenomenal financial aid person. And she's working on bringing some things up to speed for the law school admissions professionals but also ultimately you as prospective students. And then lastly, I would look at my debt. I would look at where you are with your current student loans, paying attention to what some of the new parameters are or overall indebtedness as it relates to professional school so that you can start thinking about what your options might be because one of the biggest concerns that was around before this whole policy chamber came about was that we hate to see people start law school and then not have enough bandwidth basically, financially, to finish. Meaning you don't have enough loan above the availability to finish your degree. And so I would definitely do that research. And then I said, lastly, but I'm going to say this. Look at your credit. Get a handle of your credit now. Oftentimes when we're at the stage, people forget about that one bill that they share with their second roommate and call it debt never paid or they forget that they let their brother open something in their account. And that was, you know, those are things that you can handle now. And so get a hold of those things. But I think I would say don't panic. Please know that we as admissions professionals and financial aid professionals and student affairs and academic success professionals are all watching what's happening. And the hard thing for you all is that when we talked about patients before, this is also going to be an exercise in patients because oftentimes when there are changes that come about, you learn them when we learn them. They're in the news and you find out. And that's when we find out. And then we're scrambling between ourselves and in our schools and things like that to figure things out. So I would just say be patient. But definitely start following fed.gov. You know, go to that website regularly for updates, follow access lets on LinkedIn. Go to their website regularly and frequently. And then pay attention to what the law school is opposing. And then lastly, pay attention to what the law school admission council is posting as well. - Thank you Dean Simmons. I told you all she was great. And yes, the real tink. As you can see, my awesome panelists, Dean Roberts, Dean McShay, have listed those resources in the chat for you. Accesslex.org was mentioned. Dean Roberts listed LSAC.org choosing law schools, paying law school. LSAC has a lot of great resources. Best for paying law school. Check that out. Dean, Sean, I'm Dean McShay put in Dean Sean. I know I'm his Sean. Dean McShay put in the other resource about the new rules on the maximum on limits for the long. So you will know that what Dean Simmons mentioned before. Thank you all very much. Yep. And the Dean says utilize accesslex scholarship database. It is amazing. Yes, foreign financial aid person myself. I've never seen anything like it. It's pretty amazing to see so many different scholarships for law school students. And my class, first year, second year, third year, a lot of first year law students are wondering, can I get a scholarship and accesslex has an amazing database with a lot of first year law schools, a lot of scholarships that are out there for first year law students. Not just second and third year law students. All right, so with this financial aid. And I can bring one thing to that. Oh, absolutely. So I think given that we don't know and I'm sad to say that that because we are the professionals and I include my financial aid colleagues. And we don't know because the government hasn't told us. And they on paper, having till June or July to write the regs that will then fund you for August and September. I think it's really important. A prospective students understand. Law schools will not have the funding to cover the gap for the programs that have been eliminated. So you have to be really thoughtful in terms of what you can afford. There is no magic money, magic savior, magic law, and magic fairy that's got to come in at the end. And fill in any gap that you have due to bad credit, due to stuff when you're that you didn't know in your past or impacting your ability to get what are probably going to be private loans. So it's really important to have that understanding now and to make the appropriate plans. I wish we did have the money. I wish 20 years ago we had the money. We won't have the money. And many of us, I can say our school, I have the money to fill that gap. So it's really important to think about what that means when you're making your enrollment choice, which may be very different given that funding will look very different. Tim, I also add something as well. It certainly would be in students' best interest to also consider the fact that they may need a co-borrower as they are applying for loans to finance their legal education. And so right now, if you're starting these conversations, if you're looking at your credit now, you have a full nine months to clean up things before you matriculate to school in August. But you also have to bear in mind that the amount of debt that you could potentially be taking out per year beyond a federal direct loan, a lender depending upon the lender might simply require that you must have a co-signer. Unless you have very established credit, most students don't have very established credit. At best, you have new credit, which is just going to be too thin of a portfolio for the amount of debt that you could be managing. In that instance, I would encourage you to think about who could potentially serve as a co-borrower and really start to have those conversations and set the foundations for how you can work together to make this a reality. These are all things, unfortunately, that students might have to take into consideration and you might have to exercise some of these options to finance the legal education. So I think it's really important to not only do all of those things that Dean Simmons and Dean Lundy mentioned, but to also consider a co-borrower and to start having those conversations. Dr. Riley, can I add one more quick thing based on what Dean was just sharing? I also think this is a space where we need to be thoughtful about the school choice. In other sessions, we talked about expanding your school list because of the competitiveness of the pool and thinking about the fact that if you were applying to five school, you might want to apply to 10. But in this part of the conversation, I do think that many of you need to be more thoughtful about your school choices as it relates to cost, whether there's a part time program because you have a job that's going to allow you to keep your health insurance and other things or whether you're in a space where there's someone that you could actually live with to keep your overall competitiveness down while you're going to a program. And maybe that wasn't your top-top choice, but maybe that's the best fit. Or even considering a school that maybe wasn't the most highly ranked school, but they gave you a more substantial scholarship that you can keep for the three or four years during the program that would lead to you keeping your overall debt down. Because I think for those of you, for example, that are interested in public interest or public service, we still have the same concerns. We have to think about your overall competitiveness, we have to think about, you know, how much, you know, what type of scholarship you have coming in, but we want to think about your long term that, and I think as we look at what's happening in the job market, that's just another piece of this. So again, just, I know it's a lot of information, but we don't want you to be overwhelmed, but we do want you to make more informed decisions that I think thinking about having a co-sponsor or a co-sign or thinking about your current debt, thinking about the cost of attendance and cost of living, and thinking about your current purchases, and what you're thinking about over, like Demick Shay said, you have nine months to basically get it together. Make better choices now so that you can actually enjoy being a law student, finish the program, and then ultimately enjoy being a lawyer, and living like a lawyer as opposed to just being in a debt for the rest of your life. And again, I am a fan of all things law. I think it's important investment. I think it's, you know, Reddit has let you all think that no one's taking out of debt. When they go to law school, that's not true. Most people are actually taking loans when they go to law school. It's an investment in your future. You just need to make a smart investment and make an informed investment. And there are a lot of tools and resources out there that can help you do that. Excellent, excellent. Two things before we move on to my next question, but going back to what Dean McShay said, I was kind of, this is a little joky, a little joke. But, you know, those family members, you may not have gotten along with it Thanksgiving, you need to make up with them at the holidays where there's Hanukkah, Christmas, or Kwanza coming up. So, you can ask them to give you financial gifts. Now, this is the fun, this is not the funny part. Cash, you know, don't get me that scooter. That's $500 or don't get me this over here. Just give me cash so I can put it in my bank account so I can start saving for law school coming up. If you're in this situation where you, your limit is high, but this goes also with what Dean Simmons was saying. One of the things I counsel my clients on is showing them the five amount of report and showing them what the behavior is of a law school and their scholarship awarding, right? You're applying to this school here. 67% of the students get scholarships. The school over here gets 92%. But definitely looking at outside the bots instead of applying to these five schools here, open it up to 10, like Dean Simmons said, or 15. Give yourself some choices. There are a lot of great law schools out there. Great programming, public interest. I know a lot of you want to do big law or corporate law, but there's mid law, right? And your career could start at, you know, small law and work your way up to big law one day. But you know, if you limited on your resources and especially your staff and loans, it's better to try to start somewhere and work your way up a lot of great law schools out there, a lot of great opportunities to help you get a pay for. With that, scholarships. So we're talking about student loans for the most part in case you all didn't know. But I do have a question. A lot of students may not know. I've heard that financial aid is going away. Does that mean those scholarships that law schools have? Are they going away? Dean McShave, is that are the scholarships that you guys award? Are they going away too? Or is it just the limits on the staff at loans? So financial aid is not going away. A couple of lending options, as we've known them, are changing. Law schools, institutional aid still exists. But that also doesn't mean that schools aren't as impacted as you are in some instances as we navigate forward. Scholarships still exist. And bear in mind that not every institution evaluates and/or awards scholarships on the same basis. Some award based upon merit, some award based upon need, some do both. Some might have a completely different set of options that I'm just not aware of right now. But we all have our individual practices and processes. Our institutional aid does still exist. But again, that doesn't mean we have new money. And as our Dean's mentioned here a little bit earlier-- and I think it might have been Dean Lundy, who mentioned that we don't have more money to fill in that gap that now exists between our aid and the amount of aid that you can borrow from the federal government. In many instances, there might be some gaps, but not in all instances. So again, this requires that you have a pretty broad selection of schools, some that might allow you to afford a legal education on just the federal direct money and a school scholarship. And some might require you to go beyond that. So you're going to have to really look at all of the options that you're applying to. Scholarships still exist, and schools will continue to have them throughout this process. Thank you for that, Dean Krimm. Can you help us or help me answer this question? Are there full-ride scholarships for law school as they are for most undergrad scholarships where you'll pay your tuition and fees and room and board? Law schools offer those. So that is a great question. This is another-- it depends. This is going to vary a lot from school to school. That is where the 509 report from the ABA will provide some information. But each individual law school could provide some information about this as well. I would say there are some law schools that do not offer full tuition scholarships. There's something that do, and maybe it's a very small amount where there's a very specific and detailed application process. There are some schools out there. I'm not one of them that have full tuition, plus fees, and stipends, and all of these sorts of things. I would say that is probably a small, very small number of schools, but it's important to sort of investigate each of those schools to see what opportunities they might have available when it comes to full tuition scholarships. Awesome. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Before we end, I love to ask the Deans for some last piece of advice that they may have wanted to share that we didn't get to share this time. But I do want to go back to that thought I had about re-applicance. I had a colleague-- or I have a colleague at 7 and say, and in one of our meetings, she missed into the school. She worked at re-applicant. They pretty much wanted to see a new personal statement. Even if you applied in February and you reapplied in September, they wanted to see a brand new personal statement. Any of you required that or would prefer to see that when a re-applicant has applied to your school, new essays, or a new personal statement, or both? Yes? I think like Dean Mack pointed out, I feel like there should be some growth from the time you applied the first time around to the second time you were applying. And so sometimes the only way to demonstrate that would be through your statements. Sometimes it's through a resume because maybe you've taken on a new internship or you've taken some new courses or you've been promoted. But I do think it's worth your while in a market like this, where every single one of my colleagues here has a reference how competitive the space is. You know, all the different things we're looking for, I think if there's an opportunity to tell a different part of your story, I just don't understand why you wouldn't take advantage of that. Like when I'm talking to candidates and they're like, oh, should I write it again or do I have to write it again? I'm always like, so do you not want to go to law school because you don't have to do anything. But if you're trying to present yourself differently in a new cycle where everyone's telling you it's super competitive, why wouldn't you take advantage of the opportunity to share another part of your story, which may resonate more with the committee this time around. Or, you know, so again, I see it as an opportunity to be out of burden, but I think it's a choice each individual has to make. But again, it really comes down to how bad do you want it? I mean, if you want it bad enough, you're going to do the work because there's so many other people that do want it that they will take that extra steps to update a resume, update their statements, et cetera. And so it's definitely a choice you make, but I definitely am more keen on a candidate when I see they've made some extra effort, particularly when they are re-applicant. - Well, we are coming, actually I have one, I did see a question that I wanted to try to get answered. Our international students being viewed this year. I know this is a general, but maybe you've been out there on the road, you've been on panels, you've heard other colleagues talking about this subject. So you don't have to speak specifically to your school or whatever you heard. I can share also what we've talked about in seven studies, but how are international students being viewed this year? This person applied in early October with above median and they haven't heard a thing yet and it's been a couple of nights, but yeah. Anybody want to start on that one? - I'm happy to start, so I will say, we don't have buckets, domestic students and international students that I know of. I don't think that most institutions have those. I think for many of us, and we started off the conversation this way. So if you weren't able to join right away, we talked about how many of us haven't sent out any decisions yet. So you probably haven't heard because we haven't sent anything out to anyone. And I know I'm at an institution where we make our decisions rolling in batches. So we don't just, we like these hundred people, we're gonna admit them a week after they apply. I know there are some schools that have already sent out decisions, but I think for many of us, we are a little more conservative and cautious this cycle. Quality has gone up, that has been mentioned as well. So we're going a little bit slower. And so I think if you are seeing on the reddit or hearing from other applicants that other applicants are hearing decisions and you're not hearing them at that point, worry. I don't think it's because of your citizenship status though. From what I'm hearing, I think it's just that the schools where you've applied probably have volume changes, quality has improved, and we're going a little bit slower to navigate this process. - And what the volume change, our staffing size has not changed. I don't know if people realize that. Like the volume increase, I mean, there are a couple of schools here that are up, 40, 50, whatever percent. They have a new, they don't have additional admissions staff. So I do think that's something for you all to be mindful of as well. - Appreciate that, absolutely. I remember doing the COVID pandemic. - Ooh, weekends. I don't think I was working 67 hours a week. That is, hmm, wow. - And just in case I'm the culprit that they're referring to, I don't begin releasing regular admissions decisions until February. So anyone who's applied September 1st for regular decision, we don't begin releasing regular decision until, and I think it's February 5th this year. So hopefully that'll be some information, helpful information. - So in general, yeah, you gotta pit, everybody's different. We've said, I mean, we haven't said that. We haven't said it depends. But all schools are different. There's 196 accredited. They're in different locations. They have different sizes, different sizes, staffs is being sent and said. Everything's different. They're not gonna release all their decisions at the same time. They're not gonna read at the same speed. So just be mindful of that. Just because your friend got admitted, doesn't mean that there's something wrong with you, per se, so just be careful with all of that. You know, don't always tell my clients, even my loss to is what they're in law school. 'Cause that's when it really gets rough. When they're trying to pay attention to what's happening to their friends, to the left right right, you need to put these blinders on and stay in your lane and just focus on you, relax. You know, stay off reddit. Stop hitting that refresh button on that status checker pay. They'll let you know. So just relax and hang out and enjoy yourselves. So yeah, there you go. Mahalo, you know, try to look some good video. Okay, so we're almost running out of time. Okay, we could go on and on about that. But. - Okay, we're gonna add one thing. One, I'm fine, really quickly and really quickly. The same goes for scholarship. If you guys think admissions offers are going out slowly. Wait till you wait, wait till you wait to see. I know that's not good English. Maybe good theology is not necessary. The style of your disease will be even slower. So just anticipating that as well. - That's perfect, excellent, that's thank you. Thank you for that. - Oh, sorry, I just wanna add one other thing regarding paying attention at early decision versus that. One thing I'm seeing in this cycle that I don't think I've seen at other cycles is applicant submitting letters of continuing interest already. So submitting an application in September, October depending on the app is already reaching out, submitting letters of continuing interest when decisions have not yet started being released. And so just want to also, you know, mention that there is a time for that, but not yet. - I have to add a client yesterday or today tell me that and I'm like, no, I was like, you're on hold. There hasn't been a decision yet. LLCIs are usually left for the wait list process. But for those of you who are still with us next month, I have that on our list, potentially was one of the major topics to talk about. LLCIs along with some other things. So pay attention. It's not time for those yet as Dean Crimson. Okay, so let's go around one last piece of advice that you want them to know. We're in December. They're about to go on break. You know, we talked about a lot of different things with a reapplicance applying late or early different things like that, scholarships, whatever last piece of advice you'd like to tell them to remember that going into the next two weeks until we meet again next month. And we can go as whoever's ready. - I'll start just reiterating sort of my thing for this evening. Be patient. Be patient is my main piece of it. - So really appreciate this process and really continue revisiting your why because many of us do student affairs and all the things we're not. We've been doing this so long where we don't just do admissions. And a year from now when you're in law school and you're taking your 1L final exams, we see a lot of students who are panicking and they're like, well, is I thinking about what did I want to do? Why did I want to do this? And I'm like, no, I met with you four times and you told me this was your greatest dream and this is what you wanted to do. So really continue to check in with yourself and know why you want to pursue this. And it shouldn't just be, you got the scholarship or you got the LSAT score. Like really why do you want to do this? How is it going to help you fill your cup? 'Cause it's a hard process. So and now we've talked about some of the financial challenges that are different than what they may have been in the past. So really continue to revisit that, why? And keep that centered as you're going through this process. - I will add, and we've given you all the resources to do this. Take advantage of utilizing the Access LEX scholarship data bank, apply for scholarships, outside scholarships. So if you get admitted to the dream school and for whatever reason they're not giving you the scholarship package that you're looking for, you will have other resources to be able to do that. Most of the scholarships listed on the scholarship data bank can be used at any of the ABA accredited law schools. There are different categories that typically the default is to list by when they do. Take some time, invest over the break to start applying for those scholarships. Again, so you don't have to say no to your dream school because you can't afford to go there. - I'm going to piggyback and throw mine in now because I used to be a financial aid counselor. And I don't think I'm missing that before for seven years. For those years was at the University of Texas School of Financial Aid Office. And back then, back in the very old days when we were running around in wagons, our scholarship database was a piece of paper and a folder and a notebook. We had like three notebooks and with the scholarship information on one page. And students would come by and you know, not many students would utilize it though. You guys have it at your fingertips. And I'm going to tell you why it's a great, a great idea. I still remember this one particular student who told me on the side one day. She was a third year about to graduate. And she said, Dr. Raleigh, thank you all for that. I just want you to know, I received $16,000 in scholarships over the last, my last two years of law school, $16,000, just completing the little essays that are out there. So that's a lot of money. So utilize that database and yeah, it could add up a little bit over time. - I would say two words that came to mind as I was listening to the other needs in you, Dr. Raleigh, discernment and intentionality. So kind of building a little bit on what Dean Mick Shaib was talking about. Be very thoughtful about your interactions and engagement throughout this process. You are building your reputation as you start participating in these types of events. Be thoughtful about who you engage with when people give you contact information follow up. If people ask you for additional information provided, particularly if it's coming from a school, but also be thoughtful about who you're accepting advice from. If you have questions, I would not rely on the blogs. I would contact the law schools directly or if you're paying for a consulting service or something like that because those are the people with the experience. And we often find that people get themselves in trouble because they're listening to a cousin who's a lawyer or my uncle who's a judge or what have you. If they've never worked in lot missions, they've never worked in a state bar position. They often don't have that intention as they just don't have the correct advice. And then intentionality, I do think that if you're thinking through your process and you're thinking about the schools you're picking, you're thinking about the information you're sharing, just be thoughtful. Think about who you are trying to communicate with, think about what nest messes you're trying to share with each school, but also be really thoughtful about these next steps in your career because it really can make a huge difference. Dean Mack talked about the fact that most of us on this Zoom or this call, whatever we're on, don't just do admissions. And so we're thinking about your behavior as it relates to our engagement. Like we're thinking about a student affairs perspective. I'm thinking about is this going to be the student that everyone's coming to me saying like, why did you admit her? She's such a horrible attitude and she doesn't follow directions ever. Like you're starting that now until be thoughtful about that, but also be on the other side of that. Be the one who everyone's like, oh my gosh, I have this new scholarship and you send out the email and everyone's like, oh my gosh, give it to her. She's amazing. You know what I'm saying? So be thoughtful, be intentional and use good judgment and then clear up your social media. I'll just tag on to the back of that in that while you're using your discernment and you're being intentional, I think you also have to understand that maybe this is the cycle for you, maybe it's not the cycle for you, right? And so my advice would be, while I would love to see every applicant who has demonstrated the skills and the ability and has the passion to be able to pursue law school, I would love to see every one of you be able to do that and be able to do it right now. Sometimes for some of us, it's just not the right time. And so as you're navigating through all of the things and look, we've thrown a lot of information at you today, and we do so in every meeting, it's not that we are saying this to get you more angst. We're trying to make sure that you are thinking about all of the things that are important to you as you navigate this cycle. So never be in a rush for this process. When you're in a rush, we feel that when you submit your applications, so take your time, get it right, constantly reassess, and if it's just not lining up right now, take a pause, take a breath, reach out to somebody, maybe one of us, and talk it out. And if that doesn't work, then maybe if this cycle doesn't work, then maybe the next cycle, or maybe the next one, right? It's not for everyone to jump in and do it right at this time. If that is you, and if you are going to do it, then let us help you navigate it, otherwise take your time. So be patient, and what did we use to say? This is a marathon, not a sprint, right? So remember that as you're navigating through the process. OK, so my last word really quickly, remember that the blogs that I'm going to tell you is about high-else at score, or high GPAs, or other metrics, were really the most important part of this process is that you find your fit. And I was trying to remember what fairy tale it was. They were trying on different shoes. I hate fairy tales, so Cinderella, maybe Cinderella. Cinderella, yes. So it's about finding the thing that perfectly matches your personality, what you want to do in law school, the kind of student community you want to be in. And that may not line up with the school that has the highest LSAT score, or the best scholarship offer. So you have to do the work even after submitting your application to finding that fit, because we have all denied-- the person with the top 1% LSAT in our pool. And then they write us, and they're like, why were I denied? And the emails are not just-- and I want to reply, well, there it is. And you know, because this is a personality and demonstrated throughout the process. And we don't particularly care to have you in our community. So it's not just about that. It's not just about the numbers. It's about the process. Echoing with DMACC said, finding out why you're doing this and then running the school that is the match for you. And that may look very different than what you see in here on blogs and external sites. Excellent. Thank you all, Deans. Thank you so much for giving us that-- not just advice, but I call it wisdom, right? So appreciate you. We're going to live it over, but that's OK. I think this advice was excellent. You guys, I hope this was helpful for you and your journey if you're applying now. If you've already applied, or you're going to apply after the break, or whenever you're going to apply. I hope this was very helpful for you. Don't forget to watch the Seven Saves website for our next round table date. It will be next month. If I'm not mistaken, we will discuss that amongst ourselves and figure that out for you, but check the website to find out. Have a great week, great holiday, break. And technically, we'll see you in 2026. Have a great night.