Faith Under Fire: The Jimmy Lai Story

[music] Welcome to Lighthouse Faith Podcast, where we are moving forward in truth and love. I'm Lauren Green, Chief Religion Gora Smalton for Fox News Channel and author of the book, "Lighthouse Faith and the Devotional Light for Today." In February, Hong Kong business man and British National, Jimmy Lai was sentenced to 20 years in prison by a communist China-controlled court. The 78-year-old pro-democracy billionaire was found guilty of sedition against the country, of conspiracy to commit collusion with foreign forces, his sentence, the longest handed down under China's national security law. Now those are the official charges, but what Jimmy Lai is really guilty of is being a Christian of a strong faith. He is a devout Catholic and has found his calls for democracy on his faith. The power brokers in Beijing, including President Xi Jinping, fear what Christianity brings to any country. Freedom only offered through Jesus Christ. It's the kind of freedom that threatens totalitarian governments that have put themselves in the place of divine authority. China, I think, is making an example of Jimmy Lai and may have created the national security law in 2020 just to target him and finally excuse to quell any kind of free speech. But, you know, Lai's story is really one of amazing, amazing success. He escaped China on a fishing boat and arrived in Hong Kong at the age of 12. He worked his way up to becoming a media, mobile and business man. And when China took over Hong Kong in 1997 from British rule, things changed. Freedom of speech, a religious expression of democracy were whittled away, but Jimmy Lai spoke out about it. And for that, he was targeted. His health is deteriorating. He is in solitary confinement, in a maximum security prison. He is weak, but his faith is strong. And while he has been for the most part silenced, his daughter Claire is speaking out and she has worked tirelessly advocating for his release and Claire joins me now. Welcome, Claire. Thank you so much for having me. You are an amazing, amazing example of faith that many people can't even imagine being where you are right now and having that kind of faith. Where does that faith come from? Gosh, you know, it's, it's, I'm extremely lucky that I was raised in the very Catholic family. I mean, my father, he joined the church really one year after I was born. So all I really remember is just growing up in a very Catholic family. And I think, you know, as Jesus said, his power, as Jesus said, the same Paul, his power is made greater, greater in weakness. I mean, that's, I think, I think these few years have definitely, he definitely proved that. And I mean, we are just so extremely grateful. And I think when things like these happen, I mean, having parents whose faith doesn't, doesn't waver and who, who, who reminds, who reminds you of it is just, is just such a blessing. What was it like growing up? You grew up in Hong Kong, right? I did. I grew up in Hong Kong. And you know, Hong Kong, it was, gosh, I mean, Hong Kong, it was, it was so vibrant at one point. It was sort of, it was so free and so vibrant. I mean, it was the place where my father, as a boy, you know, he came to, you know, his experience of freedom was really in, you know, in factory floors and, you know, full of sweat and everything, but it was so, and it was so meaningful and so, you know, he said, you know, he was always guided by the Holy Spirit, even before he knew it. And Hong Kong was also a place where, you know, the, the, the China is extremely, extremely divided and it's extremely repressed and has been for a very, very long time. And Hong Kong was almost a gateway for people to help the China and, and that freedom in Hong Kong has also disappeared and that's, and like that gateway has also closed and that's, that's extremely heartbreaking as well. Yeah. How often are you able to communicate with your father? So actually before, before this, we were, we were able to visit, but not, not that much. We were, we visited maybe maximum of 24 hours a year. I mean, we would see him in court and, and so on, but, and now it's just through, through letters and there are, of course, administrative delays because his letters are really, they look through his letters with a lot of detail, but, you know, it's, it's, I mean, how it's, you know, we're going to, we're going to get in prayer and also it's, it's, it's, I think, you know, a lot of, a lot of what we've lost in the last few years has been extremely, extremely visible to the world, but I think a lot of the ways in which we've been able to grow in faith has been, has been less, less visible, but, but, you know, definitely no less meaningful and, and, and, and the distance doesn't change that. How, how, how have you grown in faith? How has he grown in faith being in prison? Because this is a lot of people kind of imagine growing in faith while you're in prison. Well, you know, it's, it's like in one letter, my father described it as, you know, he said that since his, since he was young, he was guided by the Holy Spirit and somehow a poor and ignorant kid, which he describes himself as was somehow able to, was somehow able to be successful both in his professional and personal life and then, you know, it's in the, in a place like Hong Kong that is extremely material, it's, it's very easy to, to have other creatures, creatures other than our Lord to rely on. And he described it as, you know, being, you know, going towards Emmaus and away from Jerusalem and he said, you know, his, his, his imprisonment and through suffering, he was, he was guided back to Jerusalem and he was able to feel God's presence. And, you know, and there are little things that he does to just grow closer to Christ, you know, like, like, he fasts every, every Friday and fasting is not easy on the, on the man like him, you know, he, he shivers, he shivers, what, when he does and, and, you know, the gods put the food in front of him and, and he just sits, sits in, so he just sits with his hunger and he looks at the crucifixion that he draws and he, he tells himself that, you know, his, his, his jivering and his suffering is nothing compared to, you know, what our savior suffered for our sinners and, and, gosh, I mean, recently, I can't remember where, where, where I heard it, but I, I, I remember, you know, that the earthly stakes are low, but it's, it's all part, it's all a spiritual warfare and, yeah, and I think that's, that's sort of, what my father reminds himself of, like, you know, him, him breaking his fast on the Friday, I mean, the earthly stake is low, but it's, it's his devotion, it's, it's his devotion to our Lord and it's, it's his, his, being able to deny himself certain things is, I bring some, bring some closer to our Lord and he finds such a great deal of joy, joy in that and, and it's just little things that, you know, if it's a guard who's, who treats him badly, you know, he, he sees it as an opportunity to, you know, to, to grow in humility and, you know, he has to fold envelopes and that hurts his back and he sees it as, an opportunity to grow in fortitude and it's just, and he reads a lot of theology and it's just, you know, little things that he sees as just opportunities to, you know, like St. Francis of South said it's like to, to, to, to, to, to, to gather his bouquet of virtues and, and he's just extremely grateful as are we. Wow. Wow. You know, I have to imagine that and at a Easter time, is very significant for him and for you. I mean, it just has to be. It is. I mean, it's, it's, you know, my father, he drew, he drew the crucifixion from a very early on in his imprisonment and he wanted it to reflect. I mean, I mean, gosh, I mean, I think it was, it was Fulton Sheen, I think, who said that, that, that, that, that, you know, that, to remember that, you know, our savior is, is, is a wounded savior, but that, you know, when we look, when we look at the crucifixion, I mean, what we see isn't a man wounded. Like the good thief who was Christmas. next to Jesus. What we see is our Savior, his victory and what he gained for us. He would spend hours and hours drawing and he would want to reflect both his mercy, his grace, and his love and also his suffering. He wasn't someone who drew before, but since being in prison, he has. He also draws the lesson mother at the Anunciation. At the time of him converting, it was a time when, during the handover, it was a time when a lot of people in Hong Kong, their hearts were filled with a lot of fears and a lot of doubt. I think he learned then that the only thing that could conquer it was God's love. He was curious about it before, but he was finally fully open to it then. Did he tell you the story of why he found Christianity and Catholicism? He always said that he was extremely curious. He was always curious about it, and actually he wrote a poem. It's in Chinese, but he said, it was at the time of the handover and he said, he said something, of course, I have doubts, but I don't fear because I have God. I'm extremely poor translation. The title of it is with humility and gratitude, we let God lead the way and that's how he saw the handover. At the handover, that was the thing. The handover, because the British rule of law was ruling in Hong Kong for 100 years, 100 years lease and had to hand it over to China in 1997. There was a great deal of fear because it's communist China, but China assured people, oh no, your freedoms will never change. They basically lied, right? Yeah. I think also it was in the shadows of the Tianmen Square massacre as well. The Tianmen Square massacre that happened before I was born, with less than a decade ago, and a lot of people in Hong Kong were very much, almost had their political awakening then. My father as well, I mean, he really came into his, he became more political then and sort of saw, it sort of foreshadowed what could happen to Hong Kong. It was a time with a lot of fear and it was a time when Hong Kong was a place that he came as a boy, which was with the rule of law, with a great market economy, with a huge deal of transparency, was faced with the threat of basically changing overnight, but over time. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to take a little break here on Lighthouse Faith Podcast because I want to come back and talk about all the efforts you're making to try to get your father released. We'll be right back. And I'm back with Claire Lai. She's the daughter of Jimmy Lai who has been sentenced to 20 years in prison in Hong Kong for, well, it's basically, it was a kangaroo court basically that convicted him. Billionaire pro-democracy speaking out against the communist China government and the crackdown. And they basically, Claire, they basically made this law, this National Security Law in 2020 to target him. That's what I understand. Is that what you understand too? I mean, a lot of the main land, the sort of Chinese mouthpieces, that's what they said, that this was, this was a law that was designed to target. It sort of gave an illusion of legality, but it was really something that's used as a weapon to target people like my father. You know, it's, and I mean, they often say that it's the target, like, you know, violent factions and so on and so forth. But I mean, throughout the trial, all they've shown is that my father is someone who always discourage violence and encourage people, in fact, not, you know, the younger generation, not to be violent in their pursuit for democracy and so it wasn't targeted at certain behavior, it was targeted at certain ideas and it was targeted at, you know, it's, yeah, we invited him, you know, that that's that his faith that guided him and gave him a great deal of courage in the face of, in the face of really a great power. Yeah, I mean, I think that's, you know, and I was talking about them in the introduction that, you know, China really does fear in particular Christianity. And I've seen this a lot with watchdog groups like open doors and, and, you know, the Vatican's group as well that it's this freedom that Jesus Christ gives that's above the government. And this is what China fears because they, in a communist country, the government has to be God. The government has to be God. You don't get that in America. You don't get that in Western countries. But in a communist regime, the government has to be God, because that's the only thing they know, right? So someone like your father comes along and, and he's successful, he's wealthy, he's prominent. This is the kind of thing that they have to clamp down on. Have you, have you spoke, you know, you were at the, the President Trump invited you to the state of the Union address, is that, is that right? So, Congressman Smith and Speaker Johnson very kindly invited me. It was such an honor. I mean, such a huge honor to attend and just hear the President's speaker from such close proximity about, you know, both the priorities and all the achievements of this administration. So, I mean, I am so extremely grateful to have, you know, to have had the opportunity to go. And it was just such a such a wonderful honor. And and it's, and it's a great visual because it does show China that this administration is putting a great deal of pressure on them and that they know what they've done to your father, right? And I think, you know, just, I think one thing about about our Christians in, in, in, I mean, not just my father, but a lot of, I mean, I think, you know, the more you sort of restrict like my father, he's, he's denied a lot of the sacraments. And it's, you know, the more you deny someone, a certain sacrament, the more the more fervent they are in the right in their faith, you know, and I think, I mean, one, a clear illustration of that, I think is, you know, it's our lady of Shishan. She's known as our lady of, you know, of China and and she's, she's sort of a bit different because it's, it's, it's like, it's our lady and then she's holding baby Jesus above her head and she's on top of a hill and you go through the seven stations, 14 stations of the cross to get to her and what it symbol and there's a, there's a dragon at the bottom of her foot to symbolize, you know, the clamping down of the evil and what it symbolizes is for her son and his word to be spread all across, all across the lands and and I just found, I just find that to be, and that was prior, prior to 1949, but I just find that to be, to be, makes me really beautiful. Oh my goodness. When he was sentenced, just, just what I think was February, he was actually sentenced, he was found guilty at the end of the, I mean, mid-December in the, but on February 9th, he was actually sentenced. Your reaction to a 20-year sentence. Gosh, you know, it's, it's, um, of course, of course, I was, I was, I was heartbroken and I think, of course, it was extremely, I mean, it was the first time that he had been sentenced where I wasn't in Hong Kong with him, so I was extremely, um, it was a hard pill, a hard pill to swallow, but yeah, yeah, you know, my, like just, just, shortly before I had gotten a letter from my father, you know, where he, he, he expressed that he was in, in our Lord's Good Hands and that, you know, regardless of the outcome that, that, that, that doesn't change and I think, you know, I think Easter is a, it is a good time to remember that, you know, because there's, you know, you know, from, from his drawings of the lesson mother at the Annunciation, where she gave, you know, her humble yes. And then, you know, her fiat, which persisted, you know, all the way until, you know, her son was crucified, you know, she accomplished them all. And it's, and she, but she had a great, you know, it cut at her, but she had a great deal of faith in, in our Lord. And I think, I mean, it just sort of goes back to, to what I mentioned earlier. It's just, I'm extremely lucky that I have, I mean, I think, I mean, we're all extremely lucky that we have great examples of faith. And I'm extremely lucky that I have, I have that in, in my parents. You have, um, well, and I hate to ask you this question because it's a very sad kind of reality. But do you think your father will die in prison? You know, if, if, if he serves, um, the sentence he was given, he absolutely, he absolutely will die in prison. I mean, he is 78 in failing health. He has hard issues, diabetes. I mean, his immune system is, is compromised, greatly compromised. Um, she has waist pains, back pains and, and so on. And, and, and so, so if, if he serves at the 20 years, he absolutely will, will die in prison and, and, and, um, but I'm hopeful that now that the proceedings are over, um, a diplomatic solution might, um, be reached. And, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of pressure being put on China right now. I mean, it's not just the United States. It's the UK, um, the European Union. You've got the Canadian, um, parliament, um, of course, the Catholic Church is putting pressure, not that they would listen to the Catholic Church, but the European parliament. There's a lot of political pressure. And not only that, I think this month, President Trump is going to China and will meet with President, um, Jean Ping. What are your hopes for that? You know, I'm, we're so extremely grateful to President Trump and his administration. I mean, Secretary of State Rubio, um, on the day of the sentencing put out an extremely strong statement and, um, both condemning the sentence and not also calling for his release. And, you know, I, we do know that he was, uh, when, uh, President Trump met with, um, um, G in, um, South Korea, uh, my father was brought up and, uh, you know, that this, but at that time, the proceedings weren't over yet. I mean, now that they are, we, we do hope that, um, we do hope that of solution, well, we might be a bit closer to a diplomatic solution. Yeah, what would be a diplomatic solution? I mean, China's going to get something out of it. You know, I think that's one of the problems. What can the US give him, or the western you know, community give him that he can't get for himself? Gosh, I mean, it is, it is absolutely in China's interest to release my father. I mean, they are having a martyr behind bars. And someone who, you know, the trial lasted the better, you know, over two years, and they've proven nothing. I mean, they've proven nothing against my father. Other than he's a man who loves freedom, who loves God and loves his family. And it's, it's, and at this point, I mean, it's, this is the just an unwirthing to do. And it's, it's the only just an unwirthing for China to do. And it would be in their interest to to release my father. And yeah, I mean, that's, that would be just that alone. I mean, if they, if my father dies behind bars, he will die, he will die a martyr and that is, is not something that China wants. No, because the more you try to stamp out faithful Christians, the more Christianity grows because it's an example of faith, of that survives under pressure. And it strengthens under pressure. You know, it's interesting, um, the, the, the, the foreign ministry spokesman of China, lean, jian, I think, you know, you know, these people are just spouting the, the company line, but his, he, um, he, he said in reaction to your father, so it's his actions of gravely endangered national security and severely harmed Hong Kong's prosperity, stability, and well-being of its residents. And therefore, he deserved to be severely punished in accordance with the law. What do you think of that kind of statement? I mean, I, I recently left Hong Kong and I mean, of course, this is, this is subjective, but I think nothing has harmed Hong Kong more than the national security law and the way in which it has completely clamped down on freedom. I mean, just looking at the number of people who've left and the way in which, I mean, everyone in Hong Kong lives with, with, with the, with the knife above their head and, and, you know, if, if we're talking about damage to society, I mean, it's, it's, I mean, the natural, I mean, people in Hong Kong used to have, you know, we always lacked a structural democracy, but people in Hong Kong always had a strong sense of civic responsibility. And we had, you know, we had it like, like earlier, I said, you know, it was, Hong Kong was a place where where where where people could, could help Christians in China that it was sort of like a gateway. And that's something that I took. We took a great deal of pride and, and, and, and, you know, it was the place where Tianlin Square could be remembered. And that's just all, there are things that we took a great deal of pride and, and that's all gone now. Wow. Um, I read that your father will not appeal his sentence. Is that true? He will not. He will not. Why? I mean, you know, the, I think my father's cases have shown that, um, that the rule of law in Hong Kong is, um, is well and truly dead. And, um, and gosh, I mean, it's, it's heartbreaking to say because, um, originally, I, I stayed because I thought I would see the end of the, I stayed to, to see the end of the trials and, and, um, so, you know, we gave it, we gave the rule of law every single chance, um, we could have. And the simple fact is that, you know, my father just does not have the time it would take to appeal. And ultimately, ultimately, the, the ultimate decision maker, I mean, this is the law he was convicted under is a Chinese law. Yeah. So, um, you know, mainland Chinese law. So, the, the ultimate deciders of his fate under this law are in Beijing, not, not in Hong Kong. What about his defense team? Did he have any kind of defense team that, uh, found out from the West or, or, or in China? What, what were they like? What are they? How did they defend him? Um, in, so he had a, both a domestic, um, team and a, uh, uh, very separate from the international team. And, um, I mean, the domestic team, they are absolute, um, superheroes. And, um, so, so, so, so are the international team that it's just, um, um, the international team is, is very much focused on the international aspects and, and advocacy on, on, on, on, on that front. And the domestic team are, um, just, I mean, I think, you know, I think the domestic team have, have made every argument that could have been made, um, before Hong Kong court. And, and, um, and I mean, a lot of the ways in which, Hong Kong has broken down as, as, uh, you know, as a rule of law hub has been shown, uh, through my father's cases and, um, a huge credit, uh, I mean, a huge credit goes to the domestic team. Yeah. Um, just in an example of how the rule of law has pretty much broken down, um, apparently, um, the owner of a, bookstore, um, was arrested for selling your father's biography. And the bookstore shut down and it adds assets seized. This is what's happening in Hong Kong. Absolutely. I mean, it's, it's, you know, my father, he started Apple Daily because he wanted to promote the free flow of information, the free flow of ideas. And he, because he believed that that was the way to give people, people who wanted to exercise their agency at degree of freedom, you know, because he believed in the sanctity of the individual and, um, and it's, and to see that being, um, just completely curtailed in that way is extremely heartbreaking. Yeah. Um, before we go, what, what is next for you? Um, what are you hoping for? Um, gosh, I mean, uh, well, right now, I think it's just, um, hoping for a diplomatic solution for my father and hopefully I'll continue to speak out on behalf of my father and I hope gosh I mean I hope that I hope people remember that you know it's it in suffering we can find we can find Christ and I mean I've seen that through my father's example and I hope other people do too. Well I will be praying for your father and I hope thank you so much. Millions of other people will be praying for him as well and I know he's praying for other people and that's was just so amazing that he is in prison and yet feels so compelled to pray for people outside of that prison and and it's so inspiring to me. It brings him to you to everybody. It brings him so much joy so it's really it's really his honor and ours that he's able to to pray for others and just be able to offer up his suffering for others as well. I hear he prays for the guards too, the prison guards. He does he does and there was one time when he asked me to pray with him and you know I think after a while at first when I saw them mistreat him I was I said you know I don't want to because I was like I don't want I don't want to pray for for people who who contribute to my father's suffering and and you know and he said you know you know we we know we have seen what it's like to know that you know the grace and mercy of God and and that is that is the greatest joy of all and they don't so you know to pray that they do too. Wow that's amazing. Clara Lai thank you so much for being a lighthouse faith podcast. It's been an honor speaking with you. Thank you so much. No thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Thank you and thank you for listening to lighthouse faith podcast. I'm Lauren Green. Have a blessed blessed day. Thank you. Listen ad free with a Fox News podcast plus subscription on Apple podcasts. 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