Facilitating human connection | Counseling psychology with Dr. Laura Kasper

(upbeat music) - Hi, everyone. My name is Maya and welcome to PsychMike, the podcast that explores the lives and career paths of industry leaders who use psychology to make an impact in the world. This week, I sat down with Dr. Laura Kasper, who is a licensed psychologist and private practitioner in San Francisco. Laura provides individual psychotherapy, couples therapy, and group therapy to adults, and she has experienced working with a diverse group of clients, but regardless of their background, the majority of her clients today are high achievers, founders, and leaders. In addition to her private practice, Laura is also adjunct clinical assistant faculty at Stanford School of Medicine, where she trains psychiatry residents to perform group therapy. And she's also a small group facilitator at Stanford Business School's renowned interpersonal dynamics course, which is basically a course that teaches these business students all sorts of things around interpersonal communication and emotional intelligence. So Laura majored in interpersonal communication at Penn State, she did her undergrad there, and then she continued on for several years to work at the consulting firm Accenture. Now, I won't give away too much right now, but through some trial and error and a little bit of fainting on airplanes, Laura eventually decided that she wanted to pursue her PhD in counseling psychology from the University of Maryland. I really love doing this interview with Laura because I just got to ask her all the questions that I really wanted to know about a clinical career. And a lot of these questions are questions that I'm struggling with right now and that I know a lot of you might be dealing with if you're considering a clinical path or you're already embarking on it. And so she answered really, really honestly. And so for example, we talked about how one goes about figuring out if they're suited for clinical work and what Laura did to figure it out. And how she chose, for example, a counseling program over a clinical program and a PhD over a SID. She talks about how she stood out as an applicant and what kinds of things you can do to stand out yourself when you're applying to graduate school. We talk about the process by which you develop your individual style in the therapy room in graduate school through your training and your supervision. We talk about insecurities around doing therapy and especially in graduate school when you're really doing therapy in front of your peers and faculty and that can be pretty daunting. So she talks about how she dealt with that and whether that insecurity has ever gone away. She talks about how she opened her private practice and we talk about the things that she wishes she knew before she started one. And the important things to consider before you go ahead and make that leap. If you're considering a career in clinical or counseling psychology or you're already embarking on it, I think you'll find Laura's story and insights really, really valuable. She certainly helped me clarify a lot of the questions that I had about this career. And so I really hope that she can do the same for you. Hi, Laura. How are you? Good Maya, how are you? Doing well, it's so nice to have you here. It's so nice to be here. So you've had an interesting path because you didn't start out in psychology. And I think it would be interesting to start the interview talking about how you came to realize that a clinical path would be for you, but you did it in a bit of a circuitous way. Why do you think you were drawn to journalism in college? So I was a journalism major at the beginning of college because in high school, I was on school newspaper. I was an editor and it was a really important part of my life in high school. The editors were all my friends. The advisor was, wow, I could cry thinking about her. And you know, just such that meaningful high school teacher that we all hope we get. Wow. And I wrote about psychology. I mean, I didn't really realize it at the time, but I was the one doing features on women athletes. With eating disorders or, you know, sexual assault in high school. And, you know, what we have to look forward to to college. I mean, I was already on those topics. I didn't really realize it. But, and then when I went to Penn State and started as a journalism major, that is not, I was not writing features about psychology. I mean, I was just studying advertising and had a structure of, it just wasn't me. It wasn't when I was interested in. Yeah. That's so interesting. I was also on my high school newspaper. I was an editor-in-chief. And that was one of the most formative early experiences of my life. And now I, to hear you talk about what drew you about journalism. And the things you gravitated towards, I'm sort of reflecting on myself, too. I think I loved the fact that I could learn about people through journalism, like through my writing. And through my interviews with people. And it's so crazy. It all comes full circle. Look at what I'm doing now. I mean, it's not journalism per se, but it's a sort of a form. So would you say-- It's the new journalism. It's the new journalism. The new journalism. Yeah. Yeah, so it's interesting. And I ended up in psychology. And so did you. But do you think there's a direct connection between your love of journalism and your love of psychology outside of the topics that you actually wrote about in journalism? What the act of journalism? I do. Yeah, I mean, writing and communicating with people to educate them, to help them see something differently, to help them see themselves and know themselves better. To imagine they might get help the way they're hearing about something in an article. Yeah, I think that's all-- that's all the way journalism is not like therapy, but is therapeutic or educated or something. Yeah. So then you were talking about how in college, you ended up not really doing much writing about psychology. And you did more writing or more learning about the more administrative or technical aspects of journalism. Were you enjoying that? Or do you feel like-- No, no. As soon as I start, I think it was my first journalism class. I sort of marched myself to my guidance counselor at the time and was like, this is not-- no, I don't like this. So I didn't give it much time, actually. I couldn't-- OK, well, you've realized pretty quickly. I feel like a lot of people have this mentality where they feel like they've picked a major. And so they have to just see it through to the end. So it's cool that you realize that pretty early on. Why did you choose interpersonal communication then? After that? So yeah, so this guidance counselor at Penn State-- so I mean, I was in the Honors Program at Penn State. And so you get a lot of kind of individual attention. And she was just so good. And so she just asked me about me. She asked me to talk about all the things about me. And just listening to me, she said, you know, I think you need to try this class. And it was-- speech communication was the major at Penn State. And this specific area was interpersonal communication. And it was with this professor, Dr. Susan Jarbo. And she was amazing and, you know, a charismatic. And I wanted to read and do every assignment. And I was just drawn in, like, you know, like, just in love. What do you think it was about the topic that drew you so much? Well, you know, I mean, like, a theme for me throughout my career at this point is, you know, what I loved about that class was about communication and connection and how to communicate with one another so that we feel connected and intimate. And so yeah, that was the very first class I had about something that has been-- you know, I was-- my dissertation was about in the moment communication, in a relationship, about, you know, thoughts and feelings with each other. So it's-- yeah, that's been across my career. I wonder, do you think that-- so I know after college, you ended up going into consulting. And we can talk about that. I wonder-- I've been reflecting a lot on how we come to love the things that we love or how we sort of develop these threads of passion, I guess, throughout our lives. And through these interviews with guests, just like you, I'm sort of starting to put together what helps in constructing that self narrative. Now, my audience is at a point in their lives where they're kind of starting to make sense of what they want and making real strides towards accomplishing that, whether that's within psychology or not. But generally, the threat is psychology. I guess what advice do you have for us, for me, too, because I'm in that same position, to start to make sense of the things that really draw us in? And for you, it was interpersonal communication. It was the desire to understand how people connect. How do you start to pay attention to that? What advice do you have for us between 18 and 28 year olds, let's say, who are sort of at the beginning of our careers and starting to make sense of that? Yeah, I mean, I think the advice for someone in college or early career is the same or similar to what it would be for even a 30-year-old. It's just your in college and your full-time job at some level is just learning, but really paying attention. I mean, the story I gave, right? I loved every minute of that interpersonal communication class, every minute. I mean, how often can you say that about a class, right? And so what are the topics? What are the conversations? What do you just absolutely love? And you just can't get enough of. You just can't get enough of it. Because you have to do it for 40 hours a week for-- well, I mean, however many hours a week you decide you want to work, but you have to talk about this for the rest of your life in your work. So you want to love it, I think. I agree. I agree. And it's funny. You were talking about the journalism, and then you were saying interpersonal communication was drawing you, and for me, my favorite class in college was the science of human connection. And I know we talked about that in our last conversation. And so I don't know. I guess, yeah, I'll start to pay more attention to why-- my eyes were just wide, wide open during that entire semester. I couldn't get enough. I couldn't read enough. I couldn't talk about it enough. Also, sorry, the sun is very much in my eyes. And I-- you guys can't see it, but it's kind of blinding me. Anyway, so why then why'd you go into consulting? To me, that seems off the path of what it seems like you were drawn towards in college. Yeah, well, I think it's a good example of how fear can lead any of us maybe a little off of what our heart's desire is, or fear practicality. I mean, so I was an interpersonal communication major. And I was starting to think about my job prospects. And they didn't seem-- they didn't seem like a lot of them are very fruitful. And so I was also a business major or a minor at school. And so that-- and I really didn't like a lot of that. This was the only class as I got below a name, or whatever. And so-- but with the business minor, I thought, OK, well, I can maybe find some way of combining these things. My undergrad thesis-- because you have to do one of those in the honors program at Penn State, or you did way back then-- was on women in management. And how could women communicate in management in a way that was-- I mean, it's still-- I work on this still, too-- in a way that was assertive, but not aggressive, or just how do we have power at work? So I had already started taking the interpersonal communication major and refining it a little bit around organization. Because you thought that was more marketable, or you thought that was more desirable by the market. I thought it was more desirable. And I was really interested in it. I was really interested in, you know, if I'm going to go into the working world. I mean, I didn't-- you know, it's not like I-- I didn't think I was going to-- at the time, I didn't think I was going to be a professor. I mean, I thought I was going to go into the business world, in part, in part, because my sister, who's four years older than me, when she graduated from college, she went into consulting. And so that was-- you know, and I had a-- I still have a tremendous amount of respect for my sister. And so to see that, I think that was why I thought, OK, you know, I'll take this business thing. How can I apply my communication, my interesting communication connection into that? And so yeah, and so because I had my sister in consulting, I kind of had that as an idea of something to do. And I studied abroad between junior and senior year. And I had a-- it was with a program with Boston University at the time that you took some classes, but you also got an internship. And I definitely had the sense of getting an internship. That makes you more marketable. And it was in consulting. And so that really helped me get the Accenture position my senior year when they came on campus for recruiting. What was it that you did at Accenture? Yeah, that's interesting too. I had a non-traditional Accenture path. I started in the Change Management Practice, I don't know what they call it now. Change Management? Is that like how you change organizations? Yeah, yeah. And so it was their kind of organizational cycle. Gotcha, yeah. OK. Yeah. And so the first two and a half years, I was on the team that was downsizing a group and bringing in a computer system and making sure that the people, making sure that the people were OK with this change. So a lot of the dealing with-- and eventually I started as I moved up to be connected to the executive that had lost 100 employees under hers or his watch. And then the psychological toll that was taking. That wasn't in my job description, but it was the thing I loved the most, for sure. And then that was my first couple of years. But were you helping this executive manage that changed emotionally or more practically or both? OK. My job would be to talk about, OK, let's talk about the communication strategy for firing these people. Let's talk about how you're going to navigate your relationships with them, what your relationships are going to be like with the new employees that have stayed. And so we were focused on external communications and activities, but when we were meeting, I'd also hear about their own feelings of disappointment, of shame, that somehow they were the one-- they were something wrong with them. And that's why their 100 people were being cut. And sometimes it was their management style. Do you think-- oh, that's so interesting. I don't know how far into your job at Accenture, you were able to have this very personal one-on-one contact with those executives. Was that very quickly? I would say it was after about a year, year and a half. I think it was-- So the first promotion is usually around two, two and a half years. I think about a year and a half was when that started. It's just interesting to me to hear. I don't know how things have changed within that business, or if this is still very feasible for people. You weren't a psychology major, but there's overlaps. I feel like between the major that you had and a psych major, and yet you are still very much qualified for this type of role. And it's cool that they valued your input, and that they valued that very human-- that understanding of humans into the organization, and how that would help them transition more practically and work together better as a team. And so I don't know, it's just a reflection that I had. And I wonder if that serves as some beacon of hope for people who maybe want to pursue this sort of path where they're working more on the people's side or change management side of business, and they've been a psych major. It sounds like that can be valued. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And one thing I'll say, too, is I think that I was given those opportunities because of sort of, for lack of a word, labor shortages or a team that didn't have enough staff. And so sometimes when you're in that position, you end up getting to do things that are higher than your level. And I had a natural inclination towards empathy and relationship, and client relationship development was always a top on my performance evaluations. That was always top. And so the fact that I could do that, I was trusted to do that. So why did you-- how did you transition into psych then after your consulting roles? Yeah, well, so it was interesting because the first couple of years, I was in more of a psych role that way. And actually, I was a little discouraged at the time because-- so while understaffing allowed me opportunities, I probably wouldn't have gotten. It also meant that change management projects in general were understaffed and undervalued. And I was kind of tired of being sort of the undervalued in the undervalued group. Because I thought what I was doing was valuable. And so I switched to the strategy practice. So within the center, there was a strategy practice. And I did more, much more kind of straight up business strategy. We're losing money, and we have to go into different markets. And let's do a consumer segment. All that kind of much more marketing, which was very valued at the firm. It was kind of the most respected. And I have air quotes. You can't see me. Group in some political way. And I really enjoyed it. I mean, I worked with such smart people, almost the people that I worked with had MBAs. And I couldn't move up in strategy unless I had an MBA. And so the partner that I worked for at the time, he was fantastic. He was like, look, I'll pay for you to go back and get your MBA. And come back. But I can't do anything else with you. Like, you're stuck at this level. So you've got to figure something out. Yeah, so you can either go back to change management, or you can go back and get your MBA and come back here. And you know, yay. And so that's when I really started, you know, I reflect. Yeah, yeah. Talk to me a little about that, about that reflection and where it brought you. Yeah. So yeah, I started to, you know, just really think about what did I love and what was I interested in. I wasn't ready to give up my consulting salary. I'll be totally honest about that. And so, yeah, I wasn't ready for that. And so, but I, you know, the other thing was at the time, my last project that I worked on was at a health insurance company that was losing a lot of money. And they wanted to be more profitable. And one of the main things I was doing, which is very shameful. And I'm just going to say it out loud here is, because as far to my story, my spreadsheet was tracking the millions and millions of elderly people in this country that we were recommending dropping from coverage so they could make money. And, and, and I was just one night, you know, I was in the, I was out of town at the, in the place that this insurance company was. And it was 10 o'clock at night. And I'm eating, take out food, and I'm looking at the spreadsheet and these numbers and I'm just thinking, what am I doing? (laughing) This, this is not my heart's, you know, desire or contender, anything, I can't, I can't keep doing this. And then on my 20, yeah. And then on my 27th birthday, I was coming back to this place to work and I was getting off the airplane and I fainted. And I woke up in the cockpit, blood pressure cuff on my arm EMT standing over me. I mean, this is, this is a true story. This is some movie shit. Yeah, yeah, this is a true story. And, and, you know, I was like, what's going on? And they sort of said I had fainted when I was walking out of the airplane. And it turns out, I mean, I was just dehydrated. I was sick. I was sick. I should have stayed home. I should not have gotten on the plane, you know, all that stuff. Okay. And, but, but my first response was I was like, I have a meeting to get to. And they were like, no, no, man, we're taking the hospital. You've just fainted getting off an airplane. And so I was sitting there in the hospital on my 27th birthday, thinking about my spreadsheet, thinking about how there's no, I don't have any family in this town. And I'm in the hospital because I'm overworking. Some things are going to change. So that it was immediately after that that I just found something new. And it wasn't the right thing. But, and so that was kind of. That I found the new thing that didn't last. I actually got fired from that job. What was that new thing? So, okay, so I, I, I, I, I did a big correction. I went from dropping people from coverage to working for a foundation to study the problem of the uninsured in California. So how? Oh, wow. Yeah. So, so it was kind of like flip it on a tent. Yeah, yeah. I was sort of justice for myself. Right. And, but I didn't. That work just was not, was not my work. You know, reading other people's proposals and deciding who gets money. And it was just not any of my sweet spot of what I love to do. But it, but it, but it, but I didn't drop my salary. Say, say, my salary saved the same. And, and I ended up after that doing career counseling. And that woman really helped me like she took me through a lot of processes of like my values and, yeah, you know, things I've talked about. With you, yeah, wait. So, okay. So when you said you've done career counseling just to, just to clarify for people in case they're confused, you mean you went to a career counselor who then, who helped you through these issues you, you were having. Because some people may have thought you literally became a career counselor. No, but no, you went to see one. No, I went to see one. Yes, I went to see one. So what, yeah, what was the process? First of all, that story was crazy. I'm just, I'm just thinking, I feel like we moved on pretty fast. That's a crazy story. So talk to me about the reflections that you had with the, with the career counselor and how you ultimately ended up on, you know, wanting to pursue a PhD in counseling. Psychology. Yeah. How did that happen? So let's see, one of the things that the career counselor did, which I absolutely love and always recommended people is we went through my resume at the time. And she said, what are the things on here that you absolutely love to do and that you want to do 80 or 90% of the time. And, you know, so, so I highlighted those. And then she's like, okay, the other things on the list, what are things that like, okay, you'll do them, but you're, they're hopefully not a majority of your work. Maybe they're 10 or 20% and so then I did that. And then there were a bunch of things on there. Oh, there were a lot of things actually, but I hadn't highlighted. And she was like, okay, drop those from your resume. And I was just, I was like, what? This is what I've been paid for. She's like, just drop this. If you don't want to get paid to do it, don't put it on your resume. Oh, that's great advice. Actually. Yes. Yes. Wonderful advice. Okay. Yeah, if you don't want to get paid to do it, don't put it on there. And then she, she took me through, there was like, there was like the skills exercise where, you know, there was like a bunch of skills and then she did sort of a similar thing. She was like, okay, that's what you, those are the skills you currently have. And let's just look at like the world of skills that you could use in a job and do the same thing. Right. And, and some, you know, some of them were overlapping like, I wanted to be listening. I wanted to be helping. I wanted to be problem saw, you know, like the kinds of skills that are pretty critical in as a therapist. And, and so, and so then, and then she also took me through the sort of, what do you want to talk about? Right. Go look at your books on your shelf. Go look, you know, what, what do you read in the New York Times? If you only have, you know, 10 minutes, what are you talking about with all your friends all the time? So, you know, that, that also that helps with like the content. What did you look, what classes did you love in college? This conversation we've, we've already had and, and so psychology just kept coming up, like, like, you know, obviously, and working with women, working with executives came up, working with, you know, working with, with women who have, where sadly, you know, our society's patriarchal kind of cultural problems like eating disorders and, you know, recovering from sexual assault. I mean, these are, you know, these are the, these are the ills of patriarchy. And so all, you know, all those kind of came out and, and, you know, she was like, well, let's see how we can get you some lived experience of this, again, an internship. You know, I, I, I, I, I don't think I can say enough. I think, I think the world of internships, like, it's, for me, it's, it's, you know, this Silicon Valley. It's the prototyping, you know, it's like, you give yourself a little chance to see in prototype. Like, who do I like this? Do I not like this? And, and it's pretty low stakes. Like, well, it's an internship. What I, I mean, I think I could have, you know, I could have done a call center. I could have done, you know, um, help line, like, those are kind of traditional things. And, but what I came up with was, also, I want, I guess, I think I wanted it to be pleasurable. And I wanted, I wanted sort of a break. I mean, I obviously had been pretty burnt out your work, working. And so I decided that being a guidance counselor, uh, at a camp for, you know, teenagers, uh, might get me the closest to, you know, being a counselor for, you know, freshman and college or something like that. Like, that was sort of the closest thing I could think of to kind of get near people and actually be in that role in some, you know, approved way, but also not illegal or, you know, as their therapist or, you know, working with necessarily with suicidal issues, which, you know, at the time, scared me. Yeah. So I applied and I became a guidance counselor at a fantastic art camp in Northwest Connecticut, which is close to where I'm from. Okay. But at that point, you didn't, you weren't sure, like becoming a formal therapist was going to be for you or you just, you, you just wanted some experience to see if that, if that might fit you. Yeah. I wanted some experience. I mean, I thought, I guess, I guess I, I had a really strong hypothesis that it would, so I don't think I was making a really risky bet, but it, but it definitely, it solidified it for sure. I mean, I was responsible for the 15 to 16 year olds. These were, you know, these were art, art-minded kids from, you know, homes in Manhattan where, you know, I think the generally kids who grew up in Manhattan are a little more, you know, they've had to mature to, you know, to live and survive in the city in a way that I think isn't the case maybe of somebody who's grown up in the suburbs. So, so these were, there was a lot of, you know, there were eating disorders, there was coming out, there was gender, I did it, you know, there was all of the above. And I was hooked. I was like, yep, I'm in. So this is the stage in your life right now that the one that you're describing right now is the one that I'm in. And I want to spend a little time on it, because I think a lot of my audience members are too. Yeah. Especially, I mean, I assume most of the people who clicked on this episode are also people who are interested in clinical work. And so, and right now I've been considering it more seriously for the last few months. And so, but I have questions. So, I guess what comes up for me is, I wonder if at that point you, you were at all scared by the, or not scared, I guess, but maybe turned off or hesitant about the very real emotional toll that this work would take. And whether that was something you considered or something you just kind of, you knew it was going to be there, but it was like, whatever, like this is what I want. That's a good question. I think if I'm brutally honest, I still at this, at this point that you're finding me, you know, I'd had a few years of therapy before this decision, but I was nowhere near, you know, the level of emotional development that I, that you find me today. And so, I don't, I don't really think I appreciated at the time the emotional toll that this work has. And I think, yeah, and, you know, I think like many of us who go into the field, I do have a complicated family history, and, and so I, my tolerance, I think for a lot of emotional intensity because of that is pretty high. So, so I don't, I don't, I think that for me, there was some normalcy to being around emotional intense, emotional intensity. So, I guess, now knowing what you know about being a clinician and having gone through grad school and all the years of practice that you have, what is the biggest piece or a couple biggest pieces of, pieces of advice you have for people like me who, who are considering a path like this, but are hesitant or, or they're just some gaps in our knowledge that makes leaping into it kind of a scary and difficult decision. Do you have some words of wisdom for us? Well, it's funny, the first place I go is, is I'm wondering what's scary. Huh. Okay, let's, okay. Yeah, let's go, let's unpack it. For me, oh, there's so much, like, I think, and I, I think partially, I can convince myself that it's almost like a selfish thing, like I, I'm, I want to guard my happiness and my wholeness and I worry that by giving myself so much to other people, I will carry that home with me so much that it bleeds into other aspects of my life. And I know plenty of clinicians talk about this and, and I have learned to manage it, but I also know other clinicians for whom it's not that easy, like some people don't know how to compartmentalize that well and I'm, I worry, I worry if I, if I would be able to. And there's that. There's the time commitment, like, I mean, seven, six years of grad school is a long time. Potentially also a lot of money and you're for going salary for a long time. There's the, you know, it potentially uprooting my life, like, I don't know, where I'll end up, like, if I'll have to move across the country for this and do I want that and I have a partner here and I have my family here and there, there's just so much wrapped up in it. And I guess that the root of it is, do I want this badly enough and how do I know? Yeah, that, that's exactly what I was thinking. So when, you know, when you went through the list of fears, like, well, you know, all, I mean, all of those are, you know, manageable, solvable things if it's so clear to you that it's the thing that you need to do and, and, and I will say, given everything you set, right? The emotional toll, the financial toll, the opportunity cost of, you know, how much, how long you're in school, how long it takes to build up a practice if you're on your own. I mean, all those things. I, I really am very supportive of don't do it unless you really, you feel like a deep sense that this is really the right thing. I agree with you. I agree with you. And right now I'm at the stage where I, I'm trying to gather the experiences that I need to solidify, like, solidify either towards it or against it because at this point in my life, I don't think I have enough. And if there's one thing that doing this podcast has elucidated for me, it's that, like, immerse yourself in, in these experiences that can give you prototype. That's right. That's right. It's right. It's right. It's right. It's right. Yeah. So you decided, okay. Like, I want to be a therapist. Was it, you were what, 27, 28? Yeah. 28, I think. Um, now you got into the PhD in counseling psychology program at the University of Maryland, which is a very, very, very, very good program, the top in the country, actually, for counseling psychology. Um, how, how, why do you think they took you? Oh, yeah. Why did they take me? Um, because I'm awesome. No, I'm kidding. You are awesome. Thank you. Thank you. And I think they took me, I was different, right? I wasn't a traditional psychology undergrad, but I obviously had done a lot of psychologically related work at Accenture. I, what, I think I was a little more mature, right? I was 28 and, you know, I wasn't, I had some, I had some real life experience. Um, and, and I knew because I was untraditional and I had great test score. I mean, I, you know, I made sure to get fantastic test scores all those, all the, yeah, and Jerry, like all the things that, like, you just can't, um, it just kind of, like, the, the baseline things. Right. Get your foot in the door. Yeah. And, you know, I graduated, you know, I graduated five, eight, a cap of undergrad. Like, I had, you know, I was like, I had good grades in undergrad as well. I did thesis. I did an undergraduate thesis. I'd, yeah, I'd already done research, like I'd work for the advisor. Like I'd have a lot of the things that say somebody is a good candidate for graduate school, but I think the thing that, that sealed the deal was, I knew that if they met me, that, that they would feel more compelled, even to accept me. And so I, you know, I read all the research of all the faculty in the program and tried to figure out, like, who's research was similar to what I liked, and I, did you know, sorry to interrupt, but did you know UMD was where you wanted to go, or did you have other programs in my mind? Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, um, I did know that, you know, UMD it was at the time as well. It was a top program. I knew, so at the time I was living in San Francisco, I knew I, I now was 28. I did not want to go to, to the middle of nowhere Iowa or, you know, wherever a good program might have been that was not a major metropolitan city, no, no offense to the middle of nowhere. That's what you wanted. Yeah. Just what I wanted. And so I only applied to programs or even looked to programs in major metropolitan cities. So Boston, New York, and DC, uh, and at the time that Stanford wasn't accepting into their counseling psychology program and Berkeley's program was, clinical program was pure research. So it just wasn't, yeah, California wasn't option. That's another thing that you're just touching on now, which is, yeah, what's your end goal? Because like a lot of clinical programs, which you, you did counseling, which we can talk about that too. Yeah. Um, but a lot of clinical programs, even especially the top programs, you know, don't necessarily prepare you to be a practitioner. They really want to raise up academicians. Um, and so that's something you really have to pay attention to. And often you can find that out pretty easily on the website and through talking to people at the program, uh, current graduate students, faculty, whatever, um, that's another discussion. But there's also the, the PhD aspect, PhD society clinical counseling, which is a debate that I know a lot of like PhD versus society, clinical versus counseling psychology, uh, which is a debate. I know a lot of my audience members struggle with, um, I wonder if that, if that was a consideration for you or if you were just, yeah, okay, of course, of course, of course, of course. Global versus counseling for me was at the time I experienced clinical programs as by and large, much more researcher than scientist practitioner. That was the linko at the time. I don't know what it is. It's still this. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so I knew I didn't want to just be a researcher. I did love, I do love research and I love consuming it and I live thinking about it, designing it, but I knew I didn't want to be that full time. So that ruled out a lot of clinical programs. The other reason for me for clinical and counseling, not clinical was at the time, clinical was also a little bit more illness based and counseling was a bit more strengths based or, you know, human potential and caroders and, you know, the sort of history of where counseling site came from in it, in our, you know, um, psychological, um, lineage is, it was more focused on the positive and, yeah, and so that was also me too. I mean, I, you know, I was coming out of this organizational context. I thought I might at some point want to work with executives or women executives, even though at the time I was really kind of psyched about getting in with the, you know, eating disorders and sexual assault and just like really getting in the meat of hard things, hard women things. And then, and then PhD versus society, part of it for me was, I'll just be totally, I'll just be totally honest. Part of it for me was at the time, and again, I don't know where things are, it's 20 something years ago. Yeah. Um, the PhD had was like more respected or something, there was a little bit more prestige or something. And so that was, you know, I'll just admit that was driving me. And, you know, in addition to that issue, there would, for me, there was also the financing. So the PhD program that I applied to had potential for funding and the society program. I mean, it was just a pure private, like you just pay and, and I don't, I didn't want to do that. Yeah. I didn't have to. Um, you know, there was that and, and there was also a bit of the striver in me, you know, I mean, I loved doing my thesis in undergrad. That's not true of everybody, right? I mean, I do love to like dig in and get into some research. And so with the society program at the time as well, my understanding was that you weren't really going to, to run your own experiment, or kind of do, you know, you were going to do a, maybe like a literature review or some kind of, you know, perspective, like retrospective research. And I, and I wanted to know if, if I did maybe want to be an academic and do that. And so I wanted that prototype experience of the kind of dissertation I would have to do in a PhD program. Okay. Okay. Okay. This is all so great. Um, okay. And then you were considering UMD. You kind of knew that was what you wanted. And then were there other programs you applied to? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I applied, this is also a very good story. I mean, I, I, I think I applied, I applied to Columbia, I applied to Boston University, just college, yeah, college, yeah, like Columbia, yep, no counseling, counseling, counseling. It was a counseling program, um, Boston College and UMD. I applied to three programs. Yeah, I got into, I got into Columbia's master's program, not their PhD, oh no, I applied to NYU too. I applied to NYU PhD. And my counseling, yeah. Any way you counseling. Yep. I got into NYU and Columbia master's programs. I think, you know, I didn't meet them, I didn't do the thing I did at UMD. And so they, you know, they were like, sure, you can do a master's program and then maybe after two years of knowing me and I applied to a PhD program. Maybe I would have gotten in. Who knows? Yeah. Um, that was a lot of money and, you know, no funding, whatever. And I got into the University of Maryland's PhD program and I got funding. So you were talking, and I cut you off before, but I didn't forget. So I asked you how you, why you got in, you did some crazy stuff. Let's talk about that. Yeah. You literally flew. I literally flew. Yeah, I literally was like, you know, these people just need to meet me and I have a better shot. And which like I said, I didn't do with Columbia and NYU. And, um, and so I flew, I flew to Washington DC and, you know, I communicated with a couple of faculty and said, you know, I'm, I'm in town and I would love to meet you and talk about. I'm going to be in town, you know, yeah, I didn't fly to meet you. Yeah. I'm going to be in town. I'm in town. Yeah. And I have friends, you know, I went to Penn State, so I have plenty of friends who live in Washington DC. Yeah. So there was truth to I was in town visiting friends. That was a lot. But there's nothing wrong with flying over to, no, and be like, Hey, I'm in town. No, I would totally do that. I would totally 1,000% do that. Yep. And so I did. Okay. Two different faculty and one of them ended up being my, you know, my masters and dissertation advisor. Okay. Can we talk about that? Because I don't know if this is still like a thing or if, if it's respected or if, I don't know, if, if programs discourage you to like go and meet faculty ahead of time. I still have, I still don't have a very clear answer on that question. Um, I think in some cases, it can be really beneficial to talk to faculty before you apply, um, in other cases, it doesn't help you. So I, I still haven't figured that out for myself though. My approach would probably be something like yours, but I'd probably want to go. And even, even if it's just for me, not even just to increase my chances of getting in, but just to go and meet the faculty and feel the environment and, and talk to them and see what kind of intellectual curiosities exist there and see if I vibe, um, I think there's a thousand percent benefit in that. I don't know what the rules are per se, but I mean, that's, that seems to me like a very natural thing to do, um, is there anything like you would recommend to students who are right now applying or they're in the, they're about to hear back from places, uh, about to go into their interview? Are there things that you can recommend that, um, people talk about with these faculty mentors or potential faculty mentors at the, at the institutions that they hope to attend? Any advice based on your conversations or things you know? Yeah, yeah, um, I mean, I think talking about how your passions and what your passions are and how they connect to the faculty's passions, I mean, that's what faculty want to work with people who want to work with them and, um, yes, you know, who want to expand their, you know, their reach and, you know, they get excited about the same stuff they get excited about. So, so that connection, I think, is really important and I do think probably to roll in me getting into University of Maryland, um, and, you know, the other thing that I would say is, you know, at the point that I had applied, I had a lot of life and I had done a lot of therapy and I had a lot of self-awareness that really came through and I think that graduate programs and psychology are really looking for people who are self-aware and interested in self-reflection and, you know, grow in like kind of working on themselves as people, um, and teachable and influenceable that way and I think, I think, because you don't want, you don't want a student in your graduate program who's seeing clients who is not open to feedback and who's not interested in like, wow, I don't, I don't know how to do this, teach me how to do this and, you know, maybe is having emotional reactions to something and isn't interested or open or willing to look at those reactions, you don't want that person in your clinical program. So, yes, now the question is how do you demonstrate that? Right. How do you demonstrate that in an application? I don't know if you have an answer to this, but this is just something I've been reflecting on and maybe it could be useful for my audience members to go and research further. But if you do want to add on like, how do you demonstrate that you're self-aware? Maybe it's just something that shines through in your personal statement or in your, uh, you know, in your application materials, I don't know or in your interview, um, but if there's any pointers around that, because I know that's important and that's come up before in my interviews. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think self-disclosure, you know, about your own vulnerabilities and your process. I mean, I told this, this group of people, you know, I told them that I was such a workaholic that I fainted in an airplane and, you know, and had kind of a, a life reckoning like, you know, about where I wanted to focus my attention and is this what I want to be spending my life on. Like, I told them about my journey, um, so I think, I think self-disclosure to demonstrate, you know, at times when you've, you've messed up or you've, um, you know, how you've grown from the challenges of your life. Mm-hmm. I think that shows. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that's, I'm being vulnerable is hard. I feel like on, especially on an application, you're submitting kind of a non, a non-anonously, but you, you don't know who's reading your application, um, but yeah, I think, I think I've heard definitely like being vulnerable and being honest, just honest, like being honest about your journey, um, and your growth and where you want to go, uh, is definitely helpful. I also wonder sometimes whether there's a, there's a degree of self-disclosure that is too much. Yes. Yes. And I think there is. Yeah. So I, I want to caution people too against, you know, you don't want to start out your personal statement with something that's like so overwhelmingly self-disclosing where it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like read the room, um, so I, and I still don't know, like I'm not an expert, um, but that's just something to, to consider, um, as you're applying. So yeah. Yeah. I think we all know, you know, what's a level one disclosure and what's a level 10 disclosure. Mm-hmm. I think we all know that. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, yeah. Well, you know, right. And so, you know, the three to five range, I think seems like a reasonable, comfortable disclosure range. Yeah. Um, and, and, and also I just want to say seek feedback, like don't just submit your application without having anyone read it, uh, and, and it's important who reads it to like make sure you're having people read it, who, who understand this process and who understand, like if you can find professors who understand this and who know you to read it, that's a good, uh, absolutely. We can move on from, from application stuff. Um, and let's talk about grad school itself. Uh, because I know this is a very fulfilling and challenging time in one's life. Um, and I, I'm wondering for you, what some of the biggest challenges you faced in grad school were and how you overcame them, um, and perhaps if they tie in to also the most rewarding aspects are the most sort of self enlightening aspects of, of graduate school. Uh, I'd love to hear you reflect on that a little, um, challenging aspects of graduate school. This is a new one in terms of just like I haven't thought about this in a while, take your time. Um, I suffered as I think many high achieving people who go to graduate school suffer from, uh, you know, my, my overachieving, I mean, that's what led me to burnout. Um, and so I was, you know, I was a candidate for burnout in graduate school as well. And, you know, I picked the most, I picked the advisor who's master, all, all their master's thesis students projects look like dissertations. Like I picked the overachieving amazing, yeah, yeah, of course. And so, so the work, the inner work of separating my identity from my dissertation and this work in general was really that that was big and hard and took a lot, um, took a lot of therapy. I mean, you know, I definitely found a new therapist shortly after arriving in DC. Um, yeah, you know, the, the kind of the, the phrase like P, B equals PhD, you know, the idea that I, I might not get all A's and I needed to do some self care and, um, like, can you still get, get you PhDs? Yeah. That idea. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's not, I don't think, I don't think there's anything, I mean, maybe my job at the University of, did GW for the counseling center, did I put my graduate student GPA in there? I don't, I don't know. I mean, you know, maybe I think, yeah, I've never seen somebody's graduate school GPA on their CV or anything like that. I've never seen that. Mm-hmm. Right. You know, when you get, you know, when you get good grades and undergrad and, you know, you're sort of that kind of the, that striver type, you just, you go in and get A's, right? And you need to do, yeah, it's what you do. Check along. Yeah. And, you know, I didn't want to, I didn't want to fail my things, but, but finding that balance was hard. I mean, I remember the comprehensive exams that you had to take after your master's program was done in order to really get into the PhD program or first, you know, solidify your space in it. That was some of the most stressful, that was an incredibly stressful period of my life because it felt, it felt like everything was on the line like, I don't pass this test. Mm-hmm. Am I going to keep going in this program? I mean, I, I, I knew I could take it again, but again, it's like, what, what if I don't, you know, so managing some testing's idea, I, I didn't have testing's idea for any of the other classes or anything, but that, the comp test, that was a major, major stress for sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I actually didn't know that you, at the end of your master's, well, okay, for those who don't know, for a lot of pH, or most pH, or all PhD programs, you get your master's built into the, the first two years of your PhD. And then you can, you can stop and then you graduate with a master's, but if you're going for a, you're going on a licensure path, you need to continue and finish your pH of your side, you don't get a master's and then you can practice it, you can't do that. But so I didn't know, though, that in order to continue on to your PhD, you have to take a test at the end of your master's. And to solidify your spot, is that, is that a universal thing? I don't know the answer to that question, either. Huh. But it was, that, that, that was the case at the University of Maryland in 2003. So that's almost 20 years ago now. Wow. I don't know. Wow. Okay. Well, I'll look into that. I didn't know that at all. So that, okay, I can, did, did, did you, did any, what helped? Like what helped you deal with the stress and the burnout and the, in the attaching yourself worth an identity to your work and achievement, therapy helped, therapy helped, can't plug that enough. I think, you know, talking, talking to Daniela and Brad and talking to people who had already done it, had kind of gone through it, as mentors, you know, of, of they had struggled with that too and how they navigated it, that, that helped, for sure, having a supportive partner, you know, I had a partner at the time that was also in the graduate program and he was incredibly supportive, you know, and my, you know, talking about it with my dissertation advisor, I mean, she didn't want, she didn't want me to burn out. Right. I mean, she, she's prolific and, you know, and all those ways, but she didn't want that either. So letting her in on the, the stress of that, for sure. And you know, with the test anxiety, I mean, I just, I don't know that I managed that, all that well except, I mean, I got a lot of sleep, like I did all the basics, like get a lot of sleep and give, but I gave myself a lot of time to really study, like I knew that stuff. This wasn't something I was going to hopefully wing it. Yeah, you're, um, you're also, you touched on something briefly that is making me reflect also on, if I do go to grad school, I better make sure that I have an advisor who I feel like I can also open up to about those struggles, because I don't know if every advisor is that supportive, maybe got lucky, but I know that's, that's got to be important to be able to tell your advisor, like, yo, I'm kind of burnt out, and it's not helping our project. Like can we figure out a solution together? Yeah, that's, yeah, I would say the single most important thing that got me through graduate school on time. I mean, I graduated in five years was the picking the right advisor, as I had classmates that picked advisors and those relationships were, were quite, you know, dysfunctional. And, you know, that it wasn't the only thing that held them back, but, but those, those challenged relationships were definitely part of not moving forward, whereas I had a advisor who she just, she was so interested in just moving the ball down the field, and we had a great, we had a great relationship. I mean, she, you know, she studies immediacy, she studies, I mean, that's why I wanted to study with her because we, we studied the relationship between client therapist and having those conversations and how those affect, you know, emotional outcomes, like that's what we studied together. And so she also valued that between, oh, yeah, oh, that's really interesting. And figuring out your research interests is something I'm also kind of coming back to as well. Now that I'm considering graduate, graduate schools, I hadn't, for context, I hadn't really considered it very seriously until very recently. And I'm starting to come back to the idea of research. I haven't yet done research, like clinically at all. And I, I know I need to, to kind of go to grad school or to know if I want to. But I, I guess now I would love to open a discussion about like how you developed your research interests and your clinical interests. And I know you were talking about before, kind of, you were super interested in working with women who were dealing with things like eating disorders and sexual assault, sort of these very difficult issues. And I wonder how that has changed and developed and how you came to now focus on the niche that you focus on now, which is like high achievers and executives. And yeah, I just, I would love to go through that evolution with you. Okay. It's, it's, it's long. Okay. I'm trying to try to truncate it here. So I, you know, those were definitely populations that I was interested in helping for sure. And if we go back to undergrad, you know, my, my love of my excitement for human connection and intimacy and how that's when people have functioning relationships in their lives that nourish and feed them, we see people have a lot fewer mental health issues. So I knew, you know, I knew that the sort of topic area of interest or a population that was interest, but, but I was, I was interested in learning how to be a clinician. I mean, when you're, when you're learning how to be a clinician, you focus on theoretical orientation. And how do you intervene and, you know, are you a CBT person or are you an ACT like what kind, you know, what kind of interventions do you think are aligned with you and your evaluist system and how you want to help these people? And so that was a part for me of my research, like my research path. I think in another thing, well, my master's thesis, so that topic, I just talked about was my dissertation. My master's thesis, which was first, which, you know, didn't translate to the dissertation, was I was interested in studying if, if people get close to, like a near death experience or they have sort of some kind of near death wake up call, does that help them take more ownership of their lives, you know, just that? Yeah. And, you know, at 27, I, you know, I wouldn't call feigning on a near plane in near death experience. It wasn't, but it, you know, it happened at the time that my beloved grandfather was dying. And so there was something that was kind of, yes, kicking up a lot of existential questions for me. Yes. And, and so, so that was why that was why I studied that first. It's interesting, yeah, and, and that was with, you know, that was with an advisor, the Clara, who was really interested in existential issues and y'all on them and I was gonna say lots of y'all. Yeah, yeah. I'm hearing. Yeah. I love y'all and y'all. Yeah. I've actually, I've actually met him. No way. Yeah. Yeah. What? Yeah. That urban y'all on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things I do is I supervise psychiatry residents at Stanford Medical School, which is where Y'all worked forever, right? He's still a maraudist faculty. And I had a question for him about, there was a period where there was a time when I thought I might write a book with a former client. She's a high achiever. She's a founder like that we would write a book about that work. And the only person who does that kind of stuff really is Y'all on and you know, he wrote a book where he and the client wrote, wrote, um, I can't remember which one's called every day. It's a little closer or something like that. Um, I've been wanting to read that one. What's it called again? I think it's every day. It's a little bit closer. I'm, I don't remember or a twice told, I know that I know the second line is a twice told therapy. Um, it's from his perspective and from her perspective. Okay. So, you know, so when I was thinking about this, I was like, well, I just, I just should ask Y'all. And, you know, because he's, you know, because of my Stanford association and, and actually in my supervisee, um, at the time was helping him edit this most recent version of his book. And so she was like, yeah, you should. And so then I just did. And so we had a lovely phone conversation. I'm like in, in awe, it was fun. That's awesome, um, that's so cool. So, uh, so you're having these kind of existential questions, you were researching them empirically as well. Yep. Um, how did you transit? And maybe, maybe you wouldn't even qualify, what, how would you classify the people you work with now? Like, and I don't know if you feel comfortable even, even putting a label on it. Maybe you don't, which is totally fine, but would you say you have a niche? Would you say that's something you've worked to develop? Oh, yeah, I very much have a niche now. My internship, my postdoc, my staff psychologist position was all at GW Counseling Center in DC. And, you know, GW students are pretty high achieving kids, right? So I, I would say that, you know, some of the high achiever niche started then. Obviously, you know, I had the high achiever niche from at some level, the work with, um, at Accenture and, and, you know, I never, I never directly marketed, but it's sort of who found me, you know, yeah, it's sort of who found me. I mean, I, I attracted, you know, high achievers, lawyer, I mean, at the time in Washington, DC, right? Lawyers, World Bank, State Department people, um, you know, the members of Congress, you know, I mean, I just started attracting these high achieving people. And, and, and like I said, I had, I had, I had obviously worked with those and I thought to myself, oh, I want to eventually work with women executives, but I truly didn't really start, uh, meashing and marketing to them until maybe six years ago, mm, mm, but it's just who found me. It's just who found me. Hmm. Yeah. It, like through referrals or like people who had that, who were, who identified that way or who had that experience of being high achievers did really well with you and then went and referred there. Like, I, I just, I'm curious about the mechanism. It's, it's a good question. Yeah, I think what I could say is from the beginning, oh, it's just who I am, right? When a client would contact me, either email or phone and we'd have, you know, a conversation, they, a, you know, a client could immediately experience my, I don't know, what's the right word? Hmm, gung ho, my passion, my, I, I think, I think that I, you know, I don't fit into a very traditional, you know, television kind of view of, well, television now, I've been compared to Wendy on billions of the bunch now, but, but back then, you know, I didn't fit into the kind of flowing skirt, you know, kind of big maternal, you know, that wasn't, that I'm just going to listen to you and nod my head and, you know, these stereotypes, I, I mean, they're stereotypes that, you know, I don't mean them in any negative way. It's just like, I didn't fit into that. And I think, oh, I think clients, there's some clients that they want, they want somebody who's a little more direct, who's a little more, you know, practical, who's a little, and, and I'm incredibly empathic and, you know, I can make space for a lot of big emotion, but, but so I think, I think there's something about my style and just how I come across that, that the professionals who didn't want, who just didn't want a therapist that was just going to listen to them and not give them any feedback, um, picked me. Now I'm starting to, so, okay, yeah, you've given me a lot of, a lot of questions, just came up for me. You're talking about your style and the way you kind of came into, you know, your way of being in the therapy room, and I, I imagine, I mean, okay, so here's, here's where I'm at. I'm thinking about, okay, well, I, the thing that draws me so much about grad school, um, clinical or counseling psychology, I don't know yet, which I would choose if I were to choose, um, is I'd get, like, really, I'd learn how to help. Like, I would learn the tools, the skills, the practical experience that would teach me how to be an effective clinician. Um, so there's, there's, there's like an objective nature to that. There's like a, you know, this is how it's done, kind of, aspect to it, but then there's also the individual, personal style that you bring to it. And I wonder how much space there is in graduate school or what that looks like in graduate school. Um, do, do people nurture that, like, individual style that you have or to, like, to what extent is that nurtured and emphasized versus the, like, concrete skills, therapeutic modalities? Kind of, am I? Yeah, I know. Oh, yeah. Yes, yes, yes, that's a really good question. I would say that, um, you know, at the beginning, clinical practicums and supervision was very focused on interventions, you know, learning, like, learning how to be empathic, learning, you know, you know, learning how to build a bond in a relationship, um, learning how to intervene, if you were in a psychodynamic, like, what that meant, if you were in a, um, career counseling, what that meant, you know, like, learning how to intervene in the, in whatever practicum orientation you were in, I would say that was a lot of graduate school. And, you know, yeah, learning how to intervene, yeah. So that's, I think that's what you're saying, kind of the nuts and bolts of learning how to be a therapist. Yeah. You're learning the techniques. Yes. The techniques. And, and that draws me because I, I might, I have this kind of natural inclination, I think, and the thing that, and what I'm missing is the technique is the, it's the skills, the, so that I want those to meet in some ways. So I wonder, yeah, so sorry, I cut you off, continue. No, no, yeah. So, so that was a lot of graduate school and you, at Maryland, at the time that I did it, and no idea what it was like now, yeah. In addition to the comp exam, we had, we had to do a lit review paper, and we had to do a paper on our theoretical orientation. And so that, I would say, was maybe the first time that, that I was challenged to kind of own. Like, well, who am I? What's my style? My way of, you know, integrating all these things I've learned. And then I would say, that was also internship postdoc, like those supervision experiences were less, you know, they were, they were maybe refining clinical technique and really encouraging the individual to sort of find like, who are you in this, in this. Hmm. This is so helpful. So, what helped you, like, was it mentors, advisors, supervisors, who helped you come into that, like, to meet that technique with, with your style, or how did, how did you develop that? Yeah, that's all, I mean, so, I think one of the best things about graduate school and psychology is our habit of, you're in supervision, right? Like, you're talking one-on-one with somebody about your work all the time. And so, yes, I mean, just super mentors, yeah, supervision, super vision and mentors, everybody at GW, yeah, everybody I met as a result of either Maryland or working at GW and mentors, many, many mentors. Did you ever feel insecure about your style? Yeah, of course. How could you? How could you not, right? How could you not? It's just a vulnerable thing, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're doing it in front of so many people, right? When you're training, you've got to be watched and you have to be comfortable with or at least accept the fact that you're going to be criticized. One hundred percent. I think that's what gets it, you know, what I said earlier, it's like, they want to accept people in the graduate programs that are just totally open to hearing. Yeah, tell me about that. How could I do that better? You know, I think I always felt insecure handing a supervisor a tape, I mean, no, you don't hand a tape, but you give it an electronic file, but always, always insecure. And the ones that I knew, listened to the whole thing, I felt more insecure about versus like the ones, you know, the ones that were like, oh, just queue it up and tell me, you know, like maybe I could put in one that felt you took better. Yeah, I did better, but still wanted a little help. Versus the total bomb or what I perceive to be the total bomb. That's an interesting distinction too. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And you know, my group practicum at Maryland was with, you know, was actually with the professor who was in my dissertation, I studied him in his work in my dissertation, but Dennis Kivigan. We as a group ran a group together, so my practicum class, we were all, we rotated in as the leaders of this group and everybody else, my entire class and both professors was always behind the one way mirror watching. And so that, I think, you know, I went from one person supervising, listening to the tape to my entire class and two professors. I think that exposure therapy did a huge amount for, for softening some insecurity about, you know, being about therapists, right, right? And everybody's going through it too, right? Like all of your peers are in that same position. I imagine in the beginning, it can be hard too to like kind of acknowledge that amongst yourselves and who's the first person to kind of open up and be like, I'm scared. I'm scared. I'm scared. I'm scared you're all going to judge me. And then they're feeling, you know, the competitive feeling because obviously like we're all competitive. And also you're at, you're at the top program. So that isn't added like, okay, who's in the room with you? You know, it's got to be some high achieving people. Yeah. But you know what? But I mean, the insecurity about your clinical work, it doesn't go away. I mean, it doesn't. No, it doesn't. You're just, you know, you're always, you're always finding the places where you feel vulnerable about like, did I do that right? No, I wonder how it's changed, given you're in private practice now and you practice by yourself. Yeah. Well, I, I mean, I paid for a supervisor, an individual supervisor for many, many, many years after I graduated, yeah, and then he eventually became my therapist. But, and then, you know, you, you, I was in two different peer supervision groups. So you meet with peers to talk about it. Right now I'm still in supervision with somebody for my group work, group therapy work. Oh, yeah. So that's another thing I want to ask you about my God, I feel like I could ask you questions forever. I have so many questions. Okay, well, so you've, just to sort of sum up what you've just said, supervision is important and it's not something that just ends when you leave graduate school. No. You just have to be for it. Yeah. You just have to go get yourself. Yeah. Okay. Group versus individual therapy. This is something I've been wondering about too. I'm so curious about, and couples therapy too, and I know you do all of it, like all of those. Is there one you prefer? Is there something that's, I don't know, yeah, I just kind of want to explore that. Is there something one you prefer, a modality you prefer? Group is really my true love. Yeah, I think that that's the place where people have an incredible transformation around their ability to have the kinds of relationships, the nourishing, satisfying relationships that they want and need to have good mental health. You can do a, there's a lot of inner work that's done one on one, and I love that work. I do love that work, but I really love seeing people learn the skills and the capacities to get what they need from their relationships in the group and then in life. It's not something I think about or I don't, I don't think very many people think about group therapy when they decide to become a therapist. I don't think that's something that's on people's mind, like, oh, I want to become a therapist so I can do group therapy. It's just not something that's on people's minds, so, huh. You know what? I want to ask you if, is there anything that I, we haven't touched much on your private practice, but given, and there's a million questions I could ask you about it, but given that we're limit on time, I want to give you the floor to talk about, given who my audience is, about any aspects of private practice that you maybe would have liked to know in their position, or any insight or advice you can offer to my audience around starting a private practice, maintaining a private practice, succeeding in private practice, et cetera. Anything that comes to mind? Yeah, that's a good question. I definitely succeeded in private practice online at a time when that was not traditional. So you know, when I started practice, it was traditional to fulfill your practice referrals from other therapists. And I had those and I was developing those relationships, but I also just, it was 2005 and I saw that the World Wide Web was going to be a big deal, you know? And so I got a website and, and I mean, that's, that's an area where Brad, my, my mentor Brad was really helpful was, um, yeah, I was just focusing on the opportunity to get referrals from, from, from more, you know, organic Google searches, um, and they don't teach you any of that in graduate school. Yeah. And I wonder if that's going to change. Yeah. That's, yeah, that's interesting. I, I don't think so, but people complain about it all the time. I'm like, you think I feel like it's not something that will change, at least not in like most programs because that's not really the focus or that's not, there might be, I don't know, I've heard there's some like taboo about stating that you want to be in private practice in graduate school or there's some sort of people look down upon it a little bit. I don't know if that's a thing. And to grad school. Yeah. Yeah. No, that definitely was. I definitely felt I had to tread lightly on how much I wanted that and, and there was truth for me of, I wanted to see, did I really want to be an academic and how to, I feel about the research, but, but I, I had a sense I wanted to be in practice. But yeah, I did have to tow that line, um, sorry. So yeah, you were talking about your website and referrals and, yeah, so things that reflect us. Yeah. So, so, you know, if, if somebody is going into private practice or thinking about that, how much do they want to pay attention to all that? And it's totally okay. If they don't want to pay attention to that, that's totally okay. A lot of people who don't, you know, join a group practice like my friend Brad's, right? And Brad essentially takes care of all of that, finding the clients, marketing, all that stuff and, you know, takes a cut of the fee, but if you just know you're just not the kind of person that ever wants to do that, like that, that's a totally reasonable career path. You know, you don't have to put up your own shingle by any stretch. Right. You could do, you could join someone's practice or you could also just hire someone to do that for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I definitely, I have hired people to do different parts of that, but I, I learned enough to know what I needed, so you kind of got to want to learn at least enough to know what you need around that. Yeah. Is there anything else for the private practice? I mean, it's, there's a loneliness to private practice. If you're not in an office space with colleagues that you like and know and, you know, want to occasionally have lunch with or your office is somewhere that, you know, you can't meet up with people for lunch or something like that. So, so, you know, it's the day to day is can be lonely. That's such a good point. I didn't think about that. I mean, I've thought about that at various points, but yeah, that's something I'd need to reflect on myself too. So, and there's ways around that, like, as you've said, but you can also work in other settings. Like, you can work in a hospital settings or clinical set, clinical set, other clinical settings in which that sort of fast pace, like working, always working with colleagues and other people. And maybe even, you know, a counseling center like you did at GW. Yeah. Yeah. There's so many different. And I would, so many different, I mean, one of the things that is worth talking about before we close to is in terms of like different things I have done. So, I think in this last year, I applied and got into a facilitator training program, a group facilitator training program at Stanford Business School. So, this is separate from the medical school stuff I do at the Business School. So, the Business School at Stanford has this famous class called interpersonal dynamics. It's, it's historically referred to as touchy feely. Our class of facilitators told the faculty that they might want to rethink that name given the Me Too movement and I think it's different things now, but that's what it's sort of, you know, colloquially referred to as touchy feely. And it's their emotional, relational intelligence class for the Business School students. And students come to Stanford just for this class. They, they, yeah, they love this class. There's a, you know, there's a lecture component. And then there's a experiential component which is, you know, four or five hours of group, just like group, kind of like group therapy. It's a little different, but it's called T group. And, and, you know, that, that I start, I actually start that tomorrow for the semester. And that has like exposed me to a whole, you know, new network of people and, you know, we're going to, I'm going to go on campus hopefully soon, right? And then I'm with the students and then I'm with the other facilitator and then I'm with all the facilitator, factually, like there's still, there's ways to, yeah, design your practice in your life so that you have more community. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the beauty also of a PhD is it's so versatile. And it's, and I know you're an adjunct at, at Stanford med school. Med school. Mm, what do you teach there? I supervise psychiatry residents on group therapy and individual therapy, but, but it's interesting right. So we're talking about the history of y'all at Stanford. Right now, the residents, or before Mina, my supervisor, a few years ago, developed this model to do short-term interpersonal therapy and in the residency, Stanford wasn't teaching students group therapy. Stanford residency, you know, so we've gone from this huge history with the allum to nothing. Wow. So yeah, so I'm, I'm teaching group therapy to psychiatry residents. That's so cool. That's so cool. And we can spend more time on that, but we won't. That's, that's awesome. Thank you. I have one last question before we close because I always end with this question. What is one skill, quality, or general factor, it does not have to be intrinsic. That has served you no matter where you went in life. That's a very good question. I, I guess I would say my, you know, my, my boldness or my willingness to take a risk and, you know, go meet the faculty. You know, you know, move, you know, move back to San Francisco 15 years after I started a successful private practice and start all over again kind of that willingness to just really take big risks, you know, or ask somebody for something that, you know, they might not want to give me. That's something people find that so hard. I find that so hard. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a skill, I guess. You have to nurture and develop. Thank you so, thank you so much, Laura. I had such a wonderful time talking to you today. I feel like I could ask you a million more questions. I really appreciate all the advice and your honesty about your path. Like, it was really, really incredible. You're so welcome. Thanks for having me. I hope it's helpful. Wait, don't go yet. If you've been loving psych Mike, make sure you subscribe to the weekly newsletter where you'll learn even more detailed approaches about how to get from where you are now to where you want to go with your psych background. When you sign up on psychmike.com, we will send you invaluable grad school resources, career advice, job opportunities, and early access to events that will help you learn to take your psych background to the next level. Thank you so much for tuning in and supporting psych Mike, and I cannot wait to catch you next week.