Face to Face with the BITCOIN ARCHIVE (Orange Pill Order Episode: 14)

we need the baby boomers to die off essentially that was the scammer i would i would have been like i would have made so much money most of sort of bitcoin twitter just copies and pastes what they see from other accounts in eight weeks time bitcoin is well and truly into the 70s yo guys welcome back to the orange pill order i'm thomas of course and today's guest is someone basically everyone has seen on their feet whether they know it or not i mean if you've ever seen a breaking bitcoin headline there was a good chance it was from the bitcoin archive and of course that account has over 1.8 million followers and the person behind it spent years running it anonymously and now he's out in the open archie welcome to the show thank you thomas uh great to be here i appreciate the invitation yeah thank you very much for coming on so um i've kind of noticed that we've got a guest in common dr jack cruz and obviously he's been in your show and ours so what was kind of one of your biggest takeaways from that interview with him oh i love dr cruz i think it's fantastic um you know a lot of people might uh perceive him as a bit as a bit of a grump sometimes which he certainly is but you know there's a lot of wisdom in his experience that he shares very generously and i'm you know i've always got time for people who do that and who genuinely want to help others um so you know your audience uh wouldn't be too familiar with it but i've been sharing very recently that for the first time in my life last year i got quite burned out with you know a whole bunch of stuff workload um you know changing my workout regime that just didn't quite work for me a whole bunch of things i was just done and um uh dr cruz had sort of come on my timeline and i'd noticed some of the things that he'd been mentioning you know he's he's sort of three core pillars are like uh sunlight um magnetism and uh what was the other one there was one other one just water that's it's right and so you know getting getting the sunlight thing right because i live in london um and you know you're in the uk as well we and i'm from australia and my parents are from turkey and so both really sort of very sunny environments i both genetically and my upbringing as well it's just embedded that i need sunshine and i've been i've been in london for a long time but um running this account has seen me spend much more time indoors and so as a result of that things creep up you know vitamin d deficiency creeps up without you realizing it and sometimes when you're really physically active and have been your whole life you you can mistake uh strength and um you know your form in the gym for overall health when actually you can be quite strong and uh not very healthy at all or you know that that might even mask some symptoms um that are creeping up accumulating over time until suddenly you just can't take it anymore and so i i had some symptoms of burnout but i didn't know how to recognize them um i spent january in el salvador basically doing not much at all just um in el sante if you've ever been there it's a beach town beautiful place lovely people and i've got some friends down there that i spent some time with just doing not too much in particular but just absorbing the sun recharging and then when i came back um i reverted to my previous sort of workout regime that had a good dose of sort of up ramp down ramp enough intensity to give me that sort of um the the cardiovascular fitness as well because sometimes if you just as i do i focus a lot on weight on weights but if you just focus on getting strong you're doing really low repetitions long rests and and you're not compensating with some sort of cardio or high intensity activity on the other side of that you can lose a lot of conditioning um which i did and so your heart health diminishes because you're not testing yourself you're not pushing yourself as much that might not matter so much you know at your age but at my age it's something that i need to to um to be mindful of with my workout regime that i'm covering all the bases and so you know i i did a podcast with uh dr cruz while i was in el salvador because of course he lives there and um and i basically used it as a therapy session i said all right dr cruz this is what i'm going through these are some of the changes i'm experiencing in el salvador because you know i wake up in the morning i'm catching the sunrise like he recommends catching a sunrise every day if not early morning sun but he recommends the sunrise in particular there's a spectrum of light emitted by the sun at that particular time when it's low enough in the horizon that um i think it's the red spectrum there's just an abundance of uh red light that's really good for your health then he's also a fan of grounding and that's just uh skin to skin skin contact with the earth through your feet and so the first thing i would do in el salvador is wake up you know quarter six just immediately go outside no flip-flops no t-shirts nothing just in my shorts and within two minutes of waking up my feet are hitting the sand and you know within five minutes my feet are in the ocean water and you know it's not cold water either um if you know where el salvador is it's tropical and it's warm and it's just beautiful and it's just really it's a it's a comforting experience you go there and you sit down where the surfers are and just wait for the sunrise once the sunrise hits wait for the sunrise and then you're like oh my god i'm going to 20 or 30 minutes and then get into my exercise routine first thing in the morning and so if you're listening to this and you know you live in the uk or anywhere in western europe it's waking up for the sunrise feels and sounds like a chore like that's not something a lot of people would look up you know look forward to but when you're in a place like el salvador and it's it's dark at 7 30 and you're in a beach town like el zonte and by nine o'clock everyone's done with it you know the town is pitch black except for the street lights you know there's no one around it's not a nightlife sort of place you find yourself falling asleep by 10 o'clock quite easily and so that makes waking up all the more um easy in in the morning for the sunrise and then within a day or two you sort of synchronize to that rhythm rather than living in central london as i do and you've got city lights that you know impact your circadian rhythm all that sort of thing um so you know there's quite a lot that i've learned from dr cruz um there's so much more that he talks about that i'm probably not ready for or i don't really quite understand the complexities of it because you know he's he's got a background i think he's a neurosurgeon neuroscientist neurosurgeon biology chemistry physics he he merges all of those things together in his work especially the physics physics component with biology is something not too many people do a lot of that is over my head so i try to just distill it into some principles that i can say okay well how do i how do i take this on board and change my life like how do i take one or two things out of this and you know he talks about a whole bunch of stuff that i don't really know how to embed into my lifestyle yet but you know some things take time and um but yeah i i've interviewed him twice i've met with him um in el salvador it's good to spend time with dr cruz yeah absolutely yeah i um i spent some time with him in trag and of course yeah all the conversations are really interesting but i yeah that does sound kind of rough living in london i mean especially knowing all the kind of sunrise and grounding i mean i'm i'm i'm quite lucky where i am i'm not in london but uh yeah it's still in the uk but it's more kind of countryside-ish and yeah it's a lot easier to kind of get the sunrise and get the grounding especially i mean there's yeah loads of fields and yeah so it would yeah that is quite it's always a compromise city live i think city living is always going to be a compromise of sorts and so long as you're getting something out of being in the city that you know lifts your spirits and enriches your life in some way i think that's always a good compromise it's a little bit like the alcohol thing where you know chemically it's just horrendous for your body but if you're doing it you know one glass every now and then in a social one or two days you're going to get a lot of alcohol and you're going to get a lot of free glasses perhaps but in a social environment that is really uplifting for your spirits it gives you a an occasion to spend time with people that you love and you know that's that's a very spiritually nourishing thing for a lot of people and so you've got to balance that out with you know the chemical intake of something that yeah it can be harmful for your body even at a minimal level but you're like well does it offset it does the experience the social aspect offset it can be harmful for your body even if you're drinking alone of course that's a completely different thing but yeah and it's the same thing with you know like i i've just moved into a high rise building now dr cruz would say get out all right that's horrendous for your health get out the the emf the electromagnetic fields are going to destroy you whatever yeah that's true that's true but by the same token i kind of like the lifestyle of living where i am um i've got a terrace that gives me ample opportunity to absorb some sunshine whether in the morning or in the evening or just before noon and that's me that means i actually develop uh natural vitamin d rather than having to supplement it so these are things that I wasn't able to do where I was previously living even though we'd get a lot of sunlight into the apartment it'd be through glass for example that's diminishes its effectiveness so and yeah while the sun would light up the room you wouldn't get too much sun exposure as such and so there's a balance to all that and London apartments it's just so difficult to find a decent one even when you're paying quite a lot of money it's not easy to find a decent one so sometimes we have to compromise to get the most out of life at least I'm finding I have to anyway because I still want to be in London and I just need to find a way to make that work but that might change soon yeah no absolutely I think it is sometimes difficult when you're aware of these kind of health benefits that you could be taking advantage of but financially or whatever situation you're in you just can't really take advantage of that and yeah heart goes out to all the people that can't kind of move to a more rural area and kind of need to stay in London whether whether they want to or not but yeah of course my advice would be you know as soon as anyone can get out to rural areas or I mean the best example is get out to El Salvador when whenever you possibly can so let me ask you how are you finding it because a lot of young people they feel the cultural and social pull towards the city to be around people who are going through a similar life stage because you know you're in this sort of discovery phase of your life where you're just so excited to meet new people new experiences and and that's so much more available in a busy place like London a metropolis like London so how you dealing with that I mean I yeah I I get that and I think there is a lot of people and a lot of my friends are definitely kind of wanting to get into the city but I mean I'm not well I'm not going to uni for a start so that kind of helps that sort of situation and for the people that are going to uni of course that they're all gonna be in cities but yeah I'm not going to uni because I don't believe it is worth it so that kind of helps on that front and I think I'd well for me but I'm not going to uni because I don't believe it is worth it so that kind of helps on that front and I think I'd well for me personally I think it's a lot different for personally I think it's a lot different for personally I think it's a lot different for other people because I'd rather you other people because I'd rather you other people because I'd rather you know I'd rather be in kind of nature and know I'd rather be in kind of nature and know I'd rather be in kind of nature and working on my podcast rather than you working on my podcast rather than you working on my podcast rather than you know being in the city going to clubs or know being in the city going to clubs or know being in the city going to clubs or whatever but I think yeah and it is whatever but I think yeah and it is whatever but I think yeah and it is difficult there is a there is many difficult there is a there is many difficult there is a there is many temptations of many kind of different temptations of many kind of different temptations of many kind of different things at this age and it is difficult to things at this age and it is difficult to things at this age and it is difficult to balance between the having fun and also balance between the having fun and also balance between the having fun and also staying healthy and working towards your staying healthy and working towards your staying healthy and working towards your goals yeah yeah well going back onto you goals yeah yeah well going back onto you goals yeah yeah well going back onto you Archie I mean you've sat across from of Archie I mean you've sat across from of Archie I mean you've sat across from of course a lot of big names so is there course a lot of big names so is there course a lot of big names so is there anyone that kind of surprised you in anyone that kind of surprised you in anyone that kind of surprised you in person who was kind of completely person who was kind of completely person who was kind of completely different to how they came across online different to how they came across online different to how they came across online oh not really not really but there was oh not really not really but there was oh not really not really but there was some interviews that I enjoyed that I some interviews that I enjoyed that I some interviews that I enjoyed that I wasn't sure what to expect beforehand wasn't sure what to expect beforehand wasn't sure what to expect beforehand and it just sort of exceeded my and it just sort of exceeded my and it just sort of exceeded my expectations a guy called Marty Malmy it expectations a guy called Marty Malmy it expectations a guy called Marty Malmy it was absolutely fascinating was absolutely fascinating was absolutely fascinating I I knew that he was he I mean he was I I knew that he was he I mean he was I I knew that he was he I mean he was Satoshi's first collaborator after the Satoshi's first collaborator after the Satoshi's first collaborator after the launch of Bitcoin and he was just a launch of Bitcoin and he was just a launch of Bitcoin and he was just a young lad maybe 19 20 as a student so I young lad maybe 19 20 as a student so I young lad maybe 19 20 as a student so I just found it fascinating that he was so just found it fascinating that he was so just found it fascinating that he was so ideologically technologically in tune ideologically technologically in tune ideologically technologically in tune with something that Bitcoin represented with something that Bitcoin represented with something that Bitcoin represented at that time and and wanted to work on at that time and and wanted to work on it and so that interview was fascinating it and so that interview was fascinating it and so that interview was fascinating because he's also quite introverted and because he's also quite introverted and because he's also quite introverted and I'm really extroverted and usually you I'm really extroverted and usually you I'm really extroverted and usually you know you'd imagine that my personality know you'd imagine that my personality know you'd imagine that my personality might be a bit too overpowering for might be a bit too overpowering for might be a bit too overpowering for someone like that but I really loved his someone like that but I really loved his someone like that but I really loved his energy he's sort of quiet energy I like energy he's sort of quiet energy I like energy he's sort of quiet energy I like that he sort of came out of his shell that he sort of came out of his shell and shared so much about his earlier and shared so much about his earlier and shared so much about his earlier experiences in Bitcoin and working with experiences in Bitcoin and working with experiences in Bitcoin and working with Satoshi that was a fascinating interview Satoshi that was a fascinating interview Satoshi that was a fascinating interview another guy Jesse Schrader who is another guy Jesse Schrader who is another guy Jesse Schrader who is working on a sort of lightning Bitcoin working on a sort of lightning Bitcoin working on a sort of lightning Bitcoin lightning company called AMBOSS I hadn't lightning company called AMBOSS I hadn't lightning company called AMBOSS I hadn't heard of either before his company nor heard of either before his company nor heard of either before his company nor Jesse before that and we met in Riga Jesse before that and we met in Riga Jesse before that and we met in Riga last year and what he's working on with last year and what he's working on with last year and what he's working on with his company is just extraordinary really his company is just extraordinary really his company is just extraordinary really really is and then there have been other really is and then there have been other really is and then there have been other people like I didn't know nifty nifty people like I didn't know nifty nifty people like I didn't know nifty nifty nay who's a Bitcoin dev I didn't know nay who's a Bitcoin dev I didn't know nay who's a Bitcoin dev I didn't know her but I just recently interviewed her her but I just recently interviewed her her but I just recently interviewed her in in Prague and what what a brilliant in in Prague and what what a brilliant in in Prague and what what a brilliant woman she is I didn't know effort until woman she is I didn't know effort until woman she is I didn't know effort until I met her in Prague was it last year the I met her in Prague was it last year the I met her in Prague was it last year the year before I can't remember but I've year before I can't remember but I've year before I can't remember but I've met some wonderful people I wouldn't say met some wonderful people I wouldn't say met some wonderful people I wouldn't say that anyone sort of I don't think that anyone sort of I don't think that anyone sort of I don't think anyone sort of confounded my expectations anyone sort of confounded my expectations anyone sort of confounded my expectations and have been all surprised me I did and have been all surprised me I did and have been all surprised me I did because there would have been a reason because there would have been a reason because there would have been a reason for me to invite anybody in the first for me to invite anybody in the first for me to invite anybody in the first instance so I've actually seen a fair instance so I've actually seen a fair instance so I've actually seen a fair bit of them and everyone sort of lived bit of them and everyone sort of lived bit of them and everyone sort of lived up to that promise but I don't think up to that promise but I don't think up to that promise but I don't think I've been surprised to the upside or I've been surprised to the upside or I've been surprised to the upside or disappointed by anyone either I think disappointed by anyone either I think disappointed by anyone either I think everyone I've had a really good everyone I've had a really good everyone I've had a really good experience with everybody but those are experience with everybody but those are experience with everybody but those are people that I didn't really know too people that I didn't really know too people that I didn't really know too much and I just enjoyed chatting with much and I just enjoyed chatting with much and I just enjoyed chatting with them afterwards thinking gosh I didn't them afterwards thinking gosh I didn't them afterwards thinking gosh I didn't know them before hardly knew anything know them before hardly knew anything know them before hardly knew anything about them and and wasn't it so nice of about them and and wasn't it so nice of about them and and wasn't it so nice of them to sort of open up and and and them to sort of open up and and and them to sort of open up and and and share their thoughts and experiences share their thoughts and experiences share their thoughts and experiences with us so I really enjoy that I met a with us so I really enjoy that I met a with us so I really enjoy that I met a another woman called Helena and Drake and another woman called Helena and Drake and another woman called Helena and Drake and Draco yeah she's a psychotherapist so Draco yeah she's a psychotherapist so Draco yeah she's a psychotherapist so she has a really interesting point of she has a really interesting point of she has a really interesting point of view with respect to Bitcoin the view with respect to Bitcoin the view with respect to Bitcoin the financial system as it pertains to sort financial system as it pertains to sort financial system as it pertains to sort of how how oppressive it is and how it of how how oppressive it is and how it of how how oppressive it is and how it mirrors almost you know one-to-one an mirrors almost you know one-to-one an abusive relationship the dynamic of an abusive relationship the dynamic of an abusive relationship the dynamic of an abusive relationship and she broke that abusive relationship and she broke that abusive relationship and she broke that down for us as someone who is a down for us as someone who is a down for us as someone who is a psychotherapist and has that psychotherapist and has that psychotherapist and has that understanding so you know anytime understanding so you know anytime understanding so you know anytime someone is sort of crossing over someone is sort of crossing over someone is sort of crossing over expertise in one field into another I expertise in one field into another I expertise in one field into another I find that really interesting yeah yeah find that really interesting yeah yeah find that really interesting yeah yeah I definitely recommend those guys to have I definitely recommend those guys to have I definitely recommend those guys to have a chat to of course it everyone else a chat to of course it everyone else a chat to of course it everyone else is you know it's been wonderful it was is you know it's been wonderful it was is you know it's been wonderful it was great to talk with Jeff Booth but you great to talk with Jeff Booth but you great to talk with Jeff Booth but you know we all know Jeff Booth right Lee know we all know Jeff Booth right Lee know we all know Jeff Booth right Lee Nolden they're as impressive as you Nolden they're as impressive as you Nolden they're as impressive as you imagine they would be but you know we imagine they would be but you know we imagine they would be but you know we we're all familiar with those guys so it we're all familiar with those guys so it we're all familiar with those guys so it would be just too easy to name sort of would be just too easy to name sort of would be just too easy to name sort of the big names and in the space but some the big names and in the space but some the big names and in the space but some of the less lesser known people are of the less lesser known people are of the less lesser known people are equally impressive and I'm always I'm equally impressive and I'm always I'm equally impressive and I'm always I'm always sort of finishing an interview always sort of finishing an interview always sort of finishing an interview with the light when I feel like I've with the light when I feel like I've with the light when I feel like I've discovered someone I didn't know discovered someone I didn't know discovered someone I didn't know anything about and they were so anything about and they were so anything about and they were so impressive yeah absolutely I think the impressive yeah absolutely I think the impressive yeah absolutely I think the often times the smaller people that you often times the smaller people that you often times the smaller people that you don't know much about often come with don't know much about often come with don't know much about often come with the the best stories I mean very the the best stories I mean very the the best stories I mean very interesting I mean we had Aladdin on interesting I mean we had Aladdin on interesting I mean we had Aladdin on from a base trading cards that the from a base trading cards that the from a base trading cards that the Bitcoin kind of trading cards and yeah I Bitcoin kind of trading cards and yeah I Bitcoin kind of trading cards and yeah I mean his story was incredible I mean so mean his story was incredible I mean so mean his story was incredible I mean so many so many people have come on where many so many people have come on where many so many people have come on where beforehand I haven't known the greatest beforehand I haven't known the greatest beforehand I haven't known the greatest deal but yeah stories are often deal but yeah stories are often deal but yeah stories are often incredible but speaking of stories I incredible but speaking of stories I incredible but speaking of stories I would kind of want to know about yours would kind of want to know about yours would kind of want to know about yours so let's go back to the start when did so let's go back to the start when did so let's go back to the start when did you come across Bitcoin and what kind of you come across Bitcoin and what kind of you come across Bitcoin and what kind of made it stick for you well it didn't made it stick for you well it didn't made it stick for you well it didn't really stick for me at all I I knew really stick for me at all I I knew really stick for me at all I I knew about Bitcoin very early on and um about Bitcoin very early on and um about Bitcoin very early on and um I didn't get into it I didn't buy it I I didn't get into it I didn't buy it I I didn't get into it I didn't buy it I didn't but you know I I remembered I didn't but you know I I remembered I didn't but you know I I remembered I think it's around 2011 2012 something think it's around 2011 2012 something think it's around 2011 2012 something like that like that like that um and the reason why I know that is um and the reason why I know that is um and the reason why I know that is because I was posting on a forum in because I was posting on a forum in those years and we were discussing those years and we were discussing those years and we were discussing Bitcoin it was a sports related forum Bitcoin it was a sports related forum Bitcoin it was a sports related forum but Bitcoin had come up but Bitcoin had come up but Bitcoin had come up and uh I was in there asking all the and uh I was in there asking all the and uh I was in there asking all the same questions that you normally would same questions that you normally would same questions that you normally would you know you know you know like someone would be oh it's backed by like someone would be oh it's backed by like someone would be oh it's backed by nothing and I'm like yeah but what's the nothing and I'm like yeah but what's the nothing and I'm like yeah but what's the US dollar backed by it's like yeah it's US dollar backed by it's like yeah it's nothing as well nothing as well nothing as well um and then you know asking making the um and then you know asking making the um and then you know asking making the comparisons with gold and things like comparisons with gold and things like comparisons with gold and things like that but you know I did at that stage I that but you know I did at that stage I that but you know I did at that stage I didn't have an understanding of didn't have an understanding of didn't have an understanding of how money was created I didn't know what how money was created I didn't know what how money was created I didn't know what was fueling inflation I didn't know was fueling inflation I didn't know was fueling inflation I didn't know what monetary debasement was we weren't what monetary debasement was we weren't what monetary debasement was we weren't taught any of that in University right taught any of that in University right taught any of that in University right and that's as someone like with a finance and that's as someone like with a finance and that's as someone like with a finance major they didn't teach us that in fact major they didn't teach us that in fact major they didn't teach us that in fact they taught us the inverted truth and so they taught us the inverted truth and so they taught us the inverted truth and so at that time I didn't have I didn't at that time I didn't have I didn't at that time I didn't have I didn't recognize that Bitcoin was going to solve recognize that Bitcoin was going to solve recognize that Bitcoin was going to solve a problem that I had a problem that I had a problem that I had um so I just thought it was like a um so I just thought it was like a um so I just thought it was like a technology experiment and like okay technology experiment and like okay technology experiment and like okay that's interesting it's new but it that's interesting it's new but it that's interesting it's new but it hasn't proven itself and so why should hasn't proven itself and so why should hasn't proven itself and so why should I take any more interest in it but it's I take any more interest in it but it's I take any more interest in it but it's cool right um and remember like now cool right um and remember like now cool right um and remember like now Bitcoin is clearly King but back then it Bitcoin is clearly King but back then it Bitcoin is clearly King but back then it was just one of so many experiments that was just one of so many experiments that was just one of so many experiments that we we have forgotten right now but at other attempts at something like that running concurrently. And so it's easy to look back in hindsight and go, well, how could you not have known? Well, actually, the truth wasn't quite as apparent as it is now. So I'm always curious and filled with admiration for people who had some kind of wedge to allow them to sort of enter that space and glean an insight into Bitcoin. And it's typically people who were cypherpunks, you know, like they had the ideology or deeply interested in technology. And when I was actually, here's the irony of it, is when I interviewed Adam Bach, he said to me that most of the people who were on that mailing list missed out on Bitcoin completely. Right. So think about it. All these people who were spending, dedicating their lives to this obscure mailing list, like there would have been, like, I don't know, 500 cypherpunks in the world, maybe a thousand, if that. I don't know how many people were on the mailing list, but I don't imagine it was a big group of people, but such an esoteric subject at that time. And they were really into it, but not enough to recognize its economic potential and to invest in that because, you know, there was just so many projects going on at that time. And even Adam, Adam says he missed it. Right. It just wasn't, he just wasn't interested in it. And then he came back to it later on and then started his company. And now, you know, we know him as the founder and CEO of Blockstream. So a lot of those people missed out and continued to avoid Bitcoin or even downplay Bitcoin because, I guess, almost out of resentment for having missed out. And so they're just doubling down on their mistake. But I didn't get it because I didn't recognize, I knew I had a problem. I didn't recognize Bitcoin as a solution to that problem. And so it was only years later, I think it would have been 2016, 2017. A friend of mine walked into a coffee shop. He's a barista. And he asked me, hey, have you seen what's happening to Bitcoin? This was in the midst of the bull run as just as it was about to go parabolic, it went up to about 10,000. And I'm like, oh, interesting. Bitcoin is still around. And a few weeks later, it's up to like 15,000. And it's like, this is getting crazy. This is out of hand. Remember, like the previous bull market, it topped that out 1,000. So this was 20x higher than that. So it really got my attention. But I was obviously not going to buy into a bubble like that. And when it got to 20,000, I just thought, I'm not, if this thing survives after this bubble pops, bubble pops, I'm not going to miss out on this next time. Because I knew that, you know, once is a fluke, and you go, okay, that's over and done with. But when it does it a second time, that's, that made me sort of take notice, like there's something to this. And if it doesn't die after this, then we know it's going to be a third time and a fourth time and a fifth time. So this is just going to perpetuate. And sure enough, it did. So when COVID hit around 2020, you know, my career was over, I had a bit of savings, and I was just sort of sitting around and started watching the Bitcoin price chart around June, July. And I think Sailor bought for the first time around September, that really got me interested again, like, really enthusiastic. And about six weeks after, just as the parabolic run had just as it started, I bought. And then within six weeks, I was all in. And I was watching it every day. So you can imagine you got all your money in something, you're watching it like a hawk every day. Watching the news every minute of every day, because you've got nothing else to do during COVID. And then, you know, discovering Bitcoin Twitter on Twitter, because that's where I was getting my news for everything else. And then I just wanted to find a way to participate. And so that's how I started Bitcoin Archive. And that's essentially it, I got in, I got in as a trade. And then the community helped educate me about monetary debasement. What is money, inflation, and that kind of opened up my eyes. And suddenly, I understood why every time the markets jittered, and there was a bit of a crash, why it sort of just shot up again, because, you know, there was a Fed put that I didn't quite understand. And then once I understood that, and I had a look at the sort of broader landscape of almost like a generational warfare, where in the United States, at the very least, you had the largest cohort of the population, which were the baby boomers who had mostly unfunded retirement plans, you know, Social Security was virtually broke, it was not going to be able to fulfill that. So it just meant you look at that in the broader context. And so well, of course, of course, they've used the stock market and the housing market as a means for boomers to self fund their retirements, because the government was not going to be able to do that. And what's that what that's done is basically stolen value from future generations. And so that's why everything is so expensive right now, because we need we need the baby boomers to die off, essentially. And and then we can have like a great period of stagnation, or maybe just one big bust and reset. So that's essentially my my journey into Bitcoin was, you know, I knew it wasn't going to die after the 2017 bull run, I knew that. And then I got in as a trade. And then I got educated through participating in the community, and developed a better understanding of the world. And you know, that's thanks to a whole bunch of people just sharing their opinions, free of charge, open source. And sure, there are a lot of terrible opinions amongst those. But that's the really good thing about the internet is that you can see different opinions. And then you can filter out what's good and what's bad. I don't want to just be given one view of the world, I want to see what everyone thinks, and then triangulate around the truth. And that's what I value. Yeah, absolutely. I think what you were what you were saying about kind of hearing about it, and then not getting into it for a few years until it had gone up. I think, I think all almost all of my guests have said that I think everyone kind of, you know, hears about it in the early 2010s, or some point in the 2010s. And, yeah, they kind of wait a few years to see what's going on. And then, yeah, of course, fall deep into that rabbit hole. And, yeah, never look back. Basically, you know, the really interesting thing is there are guys like Tim Draper, who's a very well known and accomplished venture capitalist. And he bought a whole bunch. And so he, it's one thing for a guy like him, who is already wealthy, he's got fund money and all the rest of that to take a bet on Bitcoin as part of his broader portfolio of riches, right? Like, he's already extremely wealthy man. But what I find really fascinating is like those individuals who didn't have much at all. And quite often, though, just like, you know, working class guys with, you know, blue collar jobs. And they're like, Yeah, I like this, I'm putting my entire savings of like, I don't know, 20,000 or 15,000 of something. And I'm going all in on Bitcoin. And it's like 2012. When you get what I find fascinating is where they got the courage and conviction to do that. Because if all you have is $10,000, and you're putting it into this imaginary, you know, internet money, thingy, that hasn't really proven itself, you know, it's literally three or four years after launch. I'm fascinated by what gives someone like that conviction? Is it desperation? Is it knowledge? Is it ideology? Or is it just, just pure risk takings? Like, well, I'm, I'm all in because I'm not going to get anywhere within the system. So it's either this or not much. And so, you know, the whole YOLO mentality, they were probably the first one, to do that. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah, maybe, maybe just a sprinkle of luck in there, I think is, maybe, maybe. Yeah, yeah, for sure. We can't discount luck. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But, um, yeah. So when, what, at what point did the content creation really become like, properly real for you? Like, was there a specific post or news event where kind of your views and numbers just jumped up? No, it was all, it was almost immediate. So that was one of the amazing things, because we were at a very special time during COVID, where I think the checks had just gone out as well, you know, a few months before that, and then, and the bull market had already run. So I started this January 2, the bull market started around about October. And like the parabolic part of the bull market. And so there was already quite a lot of hype. And I had the fear that I missed, you know, the hype, I thought, Oh, God, I'm starting at what I think it might have been, you can check what the price was on 2nd of January, but I think it might have been around 37 38,000. Right, so already double almost doubled the previous bull market peak and I thought oh god I've probably missed it haven't I so on day one I started and I got 150 followers on day one and I'm like gosh that's interesting so all I need to do is just keep doing what I did today as an experiment and then it will snowball because that's that's how sort of algorithms and audiences work the math around that is if you're getting 100 a day you know within a few months you're going to be getting three four five hundred a day and then within by the end of the year you're getting thousands a day that's how these algorithms sort of reward consistency so I knew that and I just I just worked day and night you know poured myself into it I had nothing else to do my career was basically over by because of COVID industry was dead there were no contracts out there's no work no phone calls returned no emails nothing so I had nothing else to do and so what I did was I just poured myself into into my work to be of service to the community that was sort of my mindset it wasn't at that point I didn't really know what I what it was going to be or what I wanted to do with it it was just I just want to be a part of this community I want to you know be of service to the community and if I add enough value to everybody else I'll get the option to then build out some other things and maybe commercialize that. So that was my mindset and that's what I'd recommend to anybody who's trying to sort of break into an industry or communities to be of service first before anything else and for a long time like just be of service be useful to people build your relationships and and that will commercialize that will monetize that will have its own you know financial reward at some point in time but start off with that mindset and I think I did that for about two years and I think I did that for about two years non-stop day and night literally day and night it was the only thing I concerned myself with was just what's going on what's the latest news what's the latest action what can I comment on what's the you know can I put together some analysis can I notice something in the data in the charts in you know there's is there a trend in the last 40 pieces of news that I've posted you know trying to put things together and to make it the number one place for people to and remember this was a time when the bitcoin media the ecosystem was not saturated like it is now so like you know you have a whole bunch of people now sort of copying what I did during that bull market but it's almost like a caricature of what I do they just they're just posting for the engagement there's no connection with the audience there's no there's not even consideration for the audience it's just how can I excite them enough to engage with my content so that my audience grows and that's that's all they care about. I don't think there is consideration and care for for connecting with an audience by a lot of these accounts who are doing that and that's always been like the top of my mind is respect for my audience from day one so you know I care about that I'm not sure how much everybody else cares about that but I it matters to me and I think when you're starting out it you'll build a more sort of authentic connection with people yeah yeah absolutely I think that's very important I think just kind of being a almost robot on on online it kind of it has its effects I mean it has its toll on the people I think people are very quick to realize whether this is kind of an account so I can be interested in the person or is it just kind of feeding me information and I think the more personal connections are always the the stronger and more important especially for everyone is kind of a human race basically so what are you doing with yourself other than this podcast in the bitcoin space are you at school as well oh I just finished high school basically yeah about a month ago so yeah I'm doing this and I'm posting shorts and stuff and yeah I'm gonna get I've been kind of asking people at conferences different like short form content questions and yeah I'm going to try and make it more kind of appealing to younger people and make it a lot easier for the younger generation to get into this space because I feel like it's quite it's quite intimidating when you first go into bitcoin twitter there's a lot of kind of information that doesn't make sense and especially when you're just learning something you want it to be easy and simple because all that information can sometimes make people feel like they're stupid or they they don't get it quick enough and that often puts a lot of people off even if what they're learning is really important yeah I agree with that I think it's a mistake a lot of bitcoiners make is when they come across someone who just merely expresses an interest in bitcoin is they try to impress them with how much they know and how smart they are and that doesn't really help someone understand anything better all it does is they try to impress them with how much they know and it's like okay well that's that's not orange pilling that's not persuasion that's not convincing anybody of anything and I think there's just this real reluctance to recognize that we don't we don't really do orange pilling very effectively at all at all and if anything we do the opposite like it's almost like we want to push people away and then we hide behind that pretending it's like a very different thing and then we hide behind that pretending it's like a very different thing virtuous behavior like well you'll get it at the price you deserve if you don't get it I don't have the time like what's that satoshi phrase if you don't you don't have the time for it yeah and so no actually that was satoshi talking to people probably over a longer period of time and he just had enough but he actually did quite a bit of explaining on those forums right he did quite a lot of explaining and threshing out issues and discussing trying to meet people where they were um and talking about the merits of his project he did quite a lot of that like his posts are there um but I think sometimes a lot of bitcoiners hide behind that um I don't I don't know why they do it I it's just not very effective way I think there's a lot of ego in the way people orange pill and yeah we put up a lot of barriers culturally um to people accepting bitcoin or just being open to the idea of how bitcoin might be able to help them we do put up a lot of barriers and I wonder if some people just I think I think there are some people out there who just wish bitcoin would remain their own private click so that they could feel superior to others there's no doubt about it in my mind yeah I've I've encountered that I've seen it on on the timeline um I've seen that sort of behavior and I don't have much time for it to be honest yeah I completely agree I think there is a lot of like opposite of orange pilling and just putting people off and I think that's that's detrimental to bitcoin I think it's it's not it shouldn't be a thing because I think then when it comes for the people who actually want to help and teach people in a positive manner um a lot of people who aren't interested in bitcoin are immediately put off whether or not the information was going to be good they don't want to hear about it and I think that's a very bad situation to be in I mean even me when I've whenever I say bitcoin to any of my friends immediately I don't want to hear about it and that's mainly because of well it's because of the media and the way it portrays it but also it is the the information that is given in the space in twitter on instagram tiktok wherever oftentimes it's it's it's too much and it kind of yeah as you said it's more of an ego boost to the person who is trying to orange pill rather than actually trying to help someone understand this system and it is it is complicated if you don't if you don't understand it immediately I don't think that's your fault at all I think it's a it's not a quick process and you do have to take your time to actually learn it and study it yeah absolutely absolutely I mean even people who've been in bitcoin for the longest time you can see some people they want to sort of perpetuate this tension between what bitcoin actually is supposed to be and like is it a store of value is it a means of exchange and it's actually like it's it has to be both but for some people it serves a purpose in one way and typically if you are you're living in a wealthier country it's it's primarily a store of value for you because we have we have well-developed payment systems the only instance is like okay it's if you are actually debanked or deplatformed yes it's it's an option for you but for the most part most people do not really need um bitcoin in developed countries as a means of exchange but in developing countries particularly some with hostile governments towards their population like really hostile I don't mean UK hostile which it certainly is becoming more and more so but in a in genuinely hostile way where you might be actually personally targeted by by a regime that is um you know The ability to make payments, uncensorable payments, is lifeblood for you. Like, it literally can keep you alive. It can help you escape. It can help you evade capture. It can do all those things. So it's really important in that instance. But then, you know, you live in some place that has a functioning state, but hyperinflation like Turkey, right? It's probably a combination of both. Some people may want to get money out of the country. Others want to hedge against hyperinflation. So, you know, there's a spectrum of use cases depending on your circumstances. So I just think, yeah, we need to make things a lot easier for people to understand based on their circumstances, not what we want them to think. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that is one of the main things that people, definitely. What I definitely do not understand right now is that Bitcoin isn't just number go up. It's extremely important for the smaller people who maybe don't necessarily have this option of kind of escaping whatever regime they're in or whatever situation they're in. Bitcoin is an out solution to that. And I think if more people knew that, a lot more people would actually get involved because I think now, it's just seen as, to the average person, more of an investment than anything else. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So what does kind of an average day look like running the Bitcoin archive? Like people probably imagine you just, I don't know, tweet twice a day and log off, but I'm sure it's obviously a lot more than that. Yeah, it is a lot more than that. So like at the moment, I've sort of leaned. I'm leaning back a little bit. I'm not posting news. I'm not posting news as intensely as I once was because I've got a bunch of things I need to sort out in the background, working on a podcast, hiring some people to take over the socials as well. So yeah, I definitely need some help with socials. But if I take you back to when I was doing everything, it was basically wake up, check the news, check the timeline, and do that every five or 10 minutes all day long. That was what running the socials was. But it's not just checking. There's a bunch of sources. You know, checking different data sources, like I said, trying to find some patterns, some meaningful patterns, meaningful information to share with people. And when I do, you know, you've got to take that chart, you've got to mark it up in a way that makes it easy to communicate the message. Whenever you find an article, you've got to distill it into its core sort of essence. What is the essence of this headline, this article, and how can I put that into a headline that is easily digestible and understandable in the simplest possible way? That was a skill I had to develop. And it's a lot harder than people imagine because, you know, I've brought on probably five or six people to try that job and they haven't been able to do it, right? So whether or not they didn't have the skill or they didn't have the intensity to focus to get, you know, production up, or if they did, they weren't able to maintain it for very long at all because it's a really intense job. So that's what I would do all day long. But since I've sort of expanded, I started a newsletter in the bull market before last, which has been kind of dormant. You know, I would write a newsletter at the end of the day summarising the news so that if you didn't have a chance to get onto the timeline, check out the account, you could just read this email and it would just tell you everything in one email newsletter. Since I've got the podcast as well, it's been hard juggling everything, actually. And then I've got the issue of, okay, now I've been doing this for six years, I want to commercialise this now. I've been funding it myself for all this time, I want to commercialise it. So there's the business development side of things about considering sponsorships and, of course, you know, as Bitcoiners, we make everything incredibly difficult because you can't just partner with any organisation. It's got to be a certain type of organisation. It's got to have a track record. Like, there are so many tripwires in this industry, culturally, commercially, ethically, that it's so difficult to operate a business. Whereas in crypto, oh, my God, there is so much money. Like, I wish I was a scammer. I wish I was a scammer. I would have been, like, I would have made so much money. Like, so much. Like, I don't want to say, but if I was, and if I didn't care about being associated with crypto, I would have made, oh, my God, money. Like, not just like, oh, I'm rich money. Like, oh, my God, money, right? Six years of doing this with an audience this size, and that's without even trying too hard to commercialise. Like, it just comes in. Like, and when I had my DMs open, I would get so many crypto shill propositions for big money. Big, big money. Like, and it's just like, yeah, bro, just tweet it out and we'll pay you 20, 30, 40. In the peak of it, like, even more. Even more. And that's, like, daily. Like, it was daily. It was just like, and honestly, like, the only cost would have been is my own conscience. Like, people think, oh, but your reputation in Bitcoin would have been trash. Let me tell you, the entire Bitcoin industry has no problems inviting shills onto their conferences, onto their conference stages, onto their podcasts, everything else. As long as occasionally they say something nice about Bitcoin, they'll invite them. And you look at the, like, how many are there in this space? Bitcoiners go on their podcasts. Bitcoiners will go to their conferences and they will even, you know, invite them onto their own podcasts. There's virtually zero industry cost to doing it. The only reason we don't do that, like, all of these. prominent people in Bitcoin is because that's what we believe. Like, we don't want to scam. We don't want to shill. And then you see the occasional idiot online who'll just, like, accuse you of being a shill or a scammer because you might disagree on 1% of something to do with Bitcoin. And they'll go, you know what I mean? And you're like, hang on, how are you calling me a shill-coiner? Like, do you realize how much I leave on the table so I don't scam and shill? Do you understand? Like, do you understand the magnitude of it? How many of you would do that? And, you know, there's people like. All your Bitcoin podcasters have that temptation. All of them turn it away for zero gain. Zero gain, right? So my podcast, my account would be just as successful if I shilled crypto. It would be just. Like, as in, like, just as popular. It would still get engagement from Bitcoiners. There'd probably be a handful. I'm going to say a handful. Like, two or three hundred hardcore Bitcoiners who wouldn't follow me. Whoop-dee-doo. Like, the only reason not to do it is because of your own personal ethics. That's it. Yeah. But I would argue that, I mean, obviously, that is a lot of money, but I think your integrity is worth more than any money could ever do for you, really. That's my point. Yeah. That's my whole point. Yeah, that's my whole point. I mean, people use that sort of, I guess, the flip side, to that is people think that they are enforcing a cultural code that keeps people in line. And I'm like, you literally are powerless. Because if I wanted to do all of that, right, I would still be welcome at conferences. I would still be welcome on podcasts. Almost all of the Bitcoin companies would still want to partner with me because they all do. They all do, right? They're everywhere. They want exposure. They want exposure. And on top of that, 70% of people. People who hold Bitcoin also own shit coins. So it's basically the entire market, right? It's basic. And that's through bull and bear markets as well. So my point is, like, the only reason. Like, if people think that they're enforcing some sort of cultural code and cultural ethics, they're not. They're not. Because people out there do shill shit coins and there's no cost incurred by them. They just enrich. They just enrich themselves. And there's no cost. They're still part of the ecosystem. And so the only reason we don't do it is because we don't want to do it. Yeah. I commend you for that, I think. Yeah. I mean, there is a lot of accounts that have kind of fallen short to that and do shill all the crypto stuff. But yeah, of course. I mean, it's great that you don't. But how do you actually decide what's worth posting? Because obviously there's a lot of noise, in this sort of space, so what's your kind of filter? for the real news there are no hard and fast rules you've got to develop a subjective subjective sense of what's interesting to people and you'll know that by just posting and seeing what they respond to um and that's it really like i could i could i could lay down some rules for you but if you apply those rules strictly you'll find yourself posting a lot of stuff that just doesn't people are not interested in yeah because you just you're just applying a rule instead of using subjective judgment um and the only thing that can really help you there is experience in posting and i guess it would be hard if you're just starting from scratch because nothing you post is going to get engagement but if you did it like on an account like mine within a week or two you'd have a very good understanding of of that and so you see a lot of the people who have started news accounts when they start off they literally just shadow me and copy everything i post and then but then they'll just stay within that range of what they copied from me and they won't recognize when the landscape has shifted until after i've posted something and it's gained so if there's some kind of new topic or a new data point that no one's really posting about then i'll start posting it then i go oh well if he's getting engagement i'll start posting too i just think it's a really empty existence doing that but a lot of them do that so a lot of the start the style that i developed through 21 22 that's essentially you know we talk about ossification of bitcoin but like it's the whole ecosystem has been ossified and that's all they're doing they're just replicating what i did between 21 22 and they're just repeating that ad nauseum um and there's no connection with the audience there's no consideration for you know there's there's one guy we don't have to name him but like every single post is like whoa it's happening you know it's sort of like the hyperbole is just like maxed out every single post and you're like chill man like nothing's happening like there's literally nothing happening in the marketplace right now and so it's finally happening it's happening and i i did a search of his account one day and i just did a keyword search happening and he he posts that like four or five times a day like regardless of how major or minor the news is i'm like that's he knows it's cringe right like why is he doing that he doesn't care that's why he doesn't care about the audience just cares about eliciting engagement and excitement to grow his account and that's all he cares about is it's basically like in the pool you know you know the guy only cares about his his comfort and uh he doesn't care about the effect he has on everybody else and that's really what it is well it's made a mockery of the the bitcoin ecosystem media ecosystem to be honest um because sometimes something is breaking news and it should be breaking but like if if one moron is typing that 20 times a day for the most minor innocuous nonsense irrelevant nonsense and it's just like what are we doing here yeah exactly it kind of becomes a boy who cried wolf sort of situation and yeah it's a caricature and it deserves scorn it deserves ridicule the trouble is we all get caught up in the same thing like we're not all the same that's the that's the point i'm making yeah yeah no absolutely i i yeah i think everyone can see a kind of clear difference between the the the good accounts and the kind of the uh the the accounts for views basically yeah so um i think yeah these accounts there are i guess it's going with whatever pays the bills but i don't think that kind of that doesn't really work in the long term i mean it may work for kind of you know getting the views and stuff but it damages bitcoin and i think that's a it's a very it's a it's a bad thing to be living with that that you know you're kind of slowing down and ruining it for other people who are actually doing good yeah but they don't care it's like you know the guy who's in the pool doesn't care that he's in the pool we all care that he's cool but he doesn't care so it's like yeah okay you know yeah yeah exactly but yeah i mean yeah well let's go back to kind of when you started the account so obviously you were anonymous for for quite a few years so why were you anonymous was it just how it happened or was it like a deliberate choice yeah no it was it was an accident um i never i never started bitcoin archive with the intention of becoming a personality in the space it was never about becoming a personality getting attention anything like that it was literally just service for the community and then as it grew i'm like oh well is this something i can grow and you know maybe develop a business out of this you know because the brand was growing like with within three months i had 150 000 sub followers on on x on twitter back then and then within 15 months or 16 months i can't remember i hit a million um and then that presents other opportunities so it's like no it's just it's once i started anonymously i started recognizing the value of being anonymous pretty quickly and then i really got comfortable being anonymous because the account grew so fast then i started wondering like hang on a minute if i if i dox myself now how will my life change do i want it to change because it's not like you know if you get to a million followers over three four years you have time to adjust to that you might dox yourself at 200 000 and no one really knows you anywhere maybe you get one person recognize you every few months but it's no real imposition into your life but if you get to a million in 15 months but and i think i got to about five or six hundred thousand within six months and you dox when there's intense interest in bitcoin in a bull market and you know it's my first experience of this so i didn't know and it's like what what is that going to mean for my life does that mean i can't go out for a coffee right now because everyone's focused on bitcoin right now um i didn't want that um yeah that kind of that was a bit of a frightening prospect is to be able to go outside and you know not really not really feel like you can just relax because someone might be watching you and you're like oh my god i'm not going to be able to go out watching you somewhere or people are going to come up and say hello and you feel like you're always on and so you're never really relaxed i didn't want that i didn't want to live that kind of a life so i i was very lucky that that accidental choice made the whole thing so much easier for me and so by the time i did dox myself in a bear market i think it was last year so it was i don't know it was a bull market that we had but it was i guess it was kind of bull market it was a muted bull market there was no hysteria around um it worked out perfectly because it was no big deal my life wasn't interrupted i still feel like i can walk around london and it's no problem and have my coffee and chill out and no one knows who i am if i go to some bitcoin places like when i went to el zonte a few people did recognize me one in particular was a bit sort of unfortunate it was an unfortunate moment but it was no big deal um in lugano i was recognized a few times but again it's no big deal you know people are quite friendly but i expect that in a place you know where you're going for a conference i expect that but it's it's just that i don't want my daily routine to be interrupted i don't want to lose the ability to just be in my own space in my own head and have a coffee and daydream i don't want to lose that no absolutely i think that would uh kind of i think it would stress anyone out but what was it back then when you were just starting did your friends and family know that you were kind of posting this and what action it was gaining i i i only so it was the second lockdown and you know my girlfriend at the time i said why don't you just go and you know leave the country because the first lockdown was quite harsh on her and just just go you're not going to enjoy it and so that was when i got the opportunity to sort of start the account because i had time on my hands and not much to do um and i wanted to surprise her when she came back she's like oh okay interesting and my younger brother they're the only people who knew and um yeah i didn't i didn't really tell anyone just my my brother and my girlfriend at the time and uh they're the only people who knew i i didn't want anyone to know there's still people who don't know what i do like most of the people in my life don't really know what i do especially from back home in melbourne they don't really know wow that's all right that's all right is work right they don't need to know yeah absolutely but what kind of what changed it then so why why did you step out of the non-docs and kind of reveal i think yeah that's a good question my my assumption my working assumption was that in order to fulfill the potential of the brand i'd needed the docs um because a key plank of that was starting a podcast and i probably could have done an off-camera podcast where it's just one camera on a guest and i said sit off camera and we just have a chat i probably could have done that but it didn't really occur to me and i always sort of had the sort of the joe rogan sort of style of podcasting in my mind as because i that's how i came across podcasting and i'd always admired his his podcast i really enjoy it um and so i just felt like oh that was just a podcast and i didn't really know what to do with it and i didn't really know what to do with it and i didn't really know what to do with it and i didn't really know what to do something i'd need to do if i'm going to launch a podcast but looking back now i think it could have been i could have done it anonymously but i'm not bothered that i'm that i'm doxed i don't feel like i've lost anything yeah yeah so for for someone my age kind of building online and you know maybe starting a podcast or posting on x what would you tell them to kind of would would tell them to stay anonymous or like show their face basically no i'd i'd say do what you wanted to do so if you were going to be anonymous there'd have to be a purpose behind that is it because you really really want to stay private if that if that's really valuable to you and you care that's fine do that um but if you don't want to be anonymous and the account grows i think the trajectory will give you the opportunity to be anonymous and the account grows i think the length of time and that sort of gradual trajectory will give you plenty of time to adjust personally as you grow your following like even mr beast how you know how long did it take to for him to get to a million subs was it i don't know a few three four years or whatever it was right and so that gives you plenty of time to adjust to what's happening um and hopefully you've made some money along the way to adjust your lifestyle so that If you need privacy, you can buy it. And what I mean by that is, you know, like I live in a rather private sort of place now where if I live somewhere else, you know, people could literally see me walking into my front door. That's a little less private. I can sit up on a terrace that's not really exposed to people. Whereas before, you know, like you could probably look into my window from the street, you know. So these little things come into play. So you want to make sure that if you're giving up your privacy, it's for something and that at least you have the means with which to purchase the privacy when you need it or to adjust your lifestyle in a way that gives you privacy when you need that. And that was one of my fears is because I wasn't making money from this. But in the early days, it's like I don't want to be known to 1.5 million people and then have to catch the bus and people recognizing, you know, I didn't want that at all. Like that would be hell to me is to like have the fame but not the money. Like that should, I think that should be the compromise is that, okay, if I'm going to be famous, at least let me make some money that can. Yeah. Allow me to purchase privacy when I need it with a quiet time when I need it to take a holiday in a place that's just a little bit different. And if it means, you know, I guess you can lose touch a little bit like that. But if you don't want to lose touch, you will make sure that you don't lose touch. That's really important to me as well. Yeah, absolutely. And I completely agree. Privacy is definitely needed. Especially kind of at these higher levels. And I think, yeah, it would be kind of that's my kind of worst nightmare is all the fame and no money. I think that's that's where a lot of people go wrong is where they they feel like they want to be famous. But I mean, I don't think being famous kind of necessarily helps other than having the money. Yeah. Or, you know, getting your message. If you are developing a following. And that fame comes with it. It just gives you the ability to push your message out there. And so that's really that's valuable. But from a from a personal point of view, lifestyle point of view, you do want to have the optionality to, you know, just take refuge in in quiet and privacy. Other than that, I don't think when you if you're starting young and presuming what I said is right. Is that, you know, you gradually build up your following. I think that would give you plenty of time to adjust and learn the lessons you need to learn to cope with it adequately. Whereas if it happened, it's it's that sudden surge of fame when you're catapulted into fame and you don't have the social infrastructure. You don't have the you haven't made the personality adjustments. You haven't been able to assert your value system on your new sort of circumstances. You don't really understand. How to switch on and off. You don't really know how to deal with the temptations. So, you know, even at my age, I there was some offers that. I because I was new to Bitcoin as well, and I didn't really understand who was who. I could have been tempted into certain partnerships that, you know. Would have turned out terribly for me. So that I because I didn't know. Who was credible and who was not. And I just figured, like, thank God, my my disposition was to do nothing rather than just do something if even if it's not quite right. So, yeah, if it's thrust upon you suddenly, that's that's big. But that's that's a huge change for anyone at any age, regardless of who you think you are. Any sudden change of that magnitude is is going to be difficult for you to deal with. So. Since you're young, I'd say, don't worry too much about it and just deal with things as they arise. And if you find things are getting a bit too hot and you just back off, people forget you pretty quickly. Yeah, absolutely, and I think, yeah, it is a big change. But I think as long as people know who they are themselves and also they've done their research and they know who else is in the space and who's trying to get in business with them, I think I think you'll be fine, basically. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, I mean, of course, you run basically one of the main kind of news wires in Bitcoin. So could you kind of explain how a story actually sort of spreads through Bitcoin Twitter, like walk us through the kind of life of a headline? Well, usually when I'm on the ball, I'll post it and I will copy it. That's that's how I do it. I'm not a big fan of the headline. will search the news themselves and verify what I'm posting is correct. None of them do that. They literally just take it and copy. And many of them literally just scrape, copy, paste. They literally do that quite shamelessly. Yeah, whereas whenever I see, if someone else beats me to the news, I will always search for that news. Always, just out of principle, to see if it's actually accurate, what they're reporting is accurate. But quite often, the article has something more important that they didn't post. Usually, they will miss something that's really crucial to the story, and often is the actual, should have been the headline, and they've just completely missed it. Yeah, a lot of those accounts are incredibly bad. And until you actually do what I'm talking about, it's hard. It's hard to see how bad they are. They're just so, they're so bad. Yeah. Most of sort of Bitcoin Twitter just copies and pastes what they see from other accounts. Even ones pretending to be like opinion leaders and thought leaders, they're literally just copying, pasting, or commenting on the news that's been posted by my account. None of them, absolutely none of them will take what I post and then search for the article, verify the facts, and then post their own thing. Absolutely none. You know how I know? Is because when I'm breaking the news, like within 30 seconds, repeatedly, like many, many times, they're posting the exact same thing. And I'm like, you didn't know about this until I posted it. You didn't even have the time to look up the article, let alone read it. You're just posting it because I did. And that's just what they do. That's, that's just, so now you know, now you know. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. A lot of those guys were pretending to be like, hey, man, I'm bringing you the news. I'm commenting on what's happening. And it's like, actually, you just saw someone else posted. You know, you've, you're on, presumably you're on TikTok and Instagram. And you ever noticed that these, these influencers use the same exact formats, the same exact trending audios, the same exact sort of introductions and hooks. It's exactly the same in Bitcoin space. And once you see it, you realize how lame it is. And they're as lame as all of those TikTok influencers copying. It's exactly the same thing, except they dress it up in something more profound. Like, you know, because we're talking about your sort of monetary theory or, you know, the Fed or Bitcoin adoption, because it's a more serious topic. People think that the accounts are more serious, but they're just as lame as TikTok influencers. They do the same thing. They operate on the same basis. Yeah, absolutely. But I think, well, the proof of work, that's, that's kind of why you've got 1.8 million followers and they don't. I think the authenticity, the authenticity really shines through to everyone, whether they kind of realize it or not. So can I just say one thing, Thomas, the reason why I'm dwelling on this point, which may not be apparent to you, but it's to encourage you and to make you realize that these people out there, just because they've got these large followings, they're not better than you. They're really lame and they're not authentic. And they probably don't even have the intelligence that you do. They've just been able to accumulate an audience because they started at the opportunity in time, built an audience through a bull market. And now it looks like because of the size that they're following, that they're quite authoritative and they're not. And so don't look at them because they have larger accounts as being more advanced or better than you or more talented than you. They've just done the time in advance and they've been able to build that account, right? You could do so much better than them. Just, I can tell just through this conversation, right? At your young age, the way you're interviewing, and the way you're able to express your, your opinions on things, you've got so much more talent than them. And I just want to, that's what I want to impress upon you is that all of these people, most of them are incredibly lame. Like there's nothing that they're doing that's beyond your capabilities. So I hope you use that as encouragement and inspiration to persist, and that you will find your voice in a formulation of something that works for you. And there's no reason why you can't surpass all of them, including my account at some point. Absolutely. Thank you so much. I really do appreciate that advice. And of course it is, yeah, it does help. And it's, it's, it's a nice kind of interesting take, because it does seem daunting when you kind of go on Twitter and you see these accounts with, you know, hundreds of thousands of followers and thinking, oh, wow, it's like, you know, I kind of want to. I don't necessarily know better. That's it. And a lot of what sounds like wisdom is just regurgitated nonsense they've heard from somebody else. And it sounds wise, but there's nothing deeper to what they're saying. They don't really understand what they're saying. And if you learn things in from first principles and just apply yourself, just getting a good grounding, you know, Bitcoin is one of those industries where you can, you can get an anonymous 19, 20 year old, and then within two or three years, they're like, oh, my God, I'm not going to be able to do this. Like, they've got quite a senior position in a publicly listed company. Like, like Dylan Leclerc should be a real inspiration for you, because five years ago, he was literally that 19 year old that hardly anyone knew. And he was just posting really good analysis on Twitter. And he developed the following like that. And so there's no reason why, you know, you can't follow in his footsteps and be in five years time in a completely different space and just dominating. Yeah, it just depends on, you know, just throwing yourself at it and improving every day doing work, building up your knowledge, and getting better every day. That's all it is. And I will be doing that. I'll make sure that I kind of, yeah, just make sure I improve. And it's all about proof of work and working hard at something that I want to achieve, which is exactly what I want to do. Awesome. You're off to a great start. I think you've done a great job throughout this interview. Thank you very much. Yeah. Well, again, kind of most of my generation gets all their news from all these feeds that kind of you've said. So what should they do to not kind of get played out by their own feed? Yeah, that's a really good question. Because if you, you know, you could, you could avoid mainstream news outlets. Because if you, you know, you could avoid mainstream news outlets. itself is he's not not everything he does is necessarily a nefarious thing but what i am trying to point out is there are interests pushing this person and this personality and you have to ask yourself why and it turns out peter teal's a massive investor in things like you know biohacking bioengineering he's the one of the backers of you know the enhanced games you know the enhanced games are basically the olympics but you can take anything any drug any whatever you want to take you can take it and so it makes then it makes sense that someone like clavicular who's into looks maxing and using all these sort of artificial and superficial means of improving your appearance sort of ties into it he's kind of this cultural beacon for self-improvement for peptides for all sorts of artificial and superficial ways of changing your bioengineering and appearance and so it all sort of ties in together that's like a cultural beacon for the rest of the things that peter teal is in also investing into because you know if you are investing in companies doing bio research in like new peptides with potential hundreds of trillions of dollars in sales for like you know glp ones olympic and these sorts of things well then you want you want to influence the culture such that people are open to taking these things and how do you do that well you know you bankroll people like clavicular for 100 grand a month for six months and suddenly you're changing the consciousness of the overton window of what's acceptable for people to do you know the kardashians did that for the longest time for like bbls and collagen and you know botox and all that sort of stuff and now we have this sort of male entity who's doing that for a lot of guys as well and then you know a 19 year old taking testosterone he's wild like bro you're entering your you're not even at your peak years of production how are you taking that stuff um but yeah i i wonder how many guys in their late teens early 20s have suddenly experimented with things that they have no business doing because they they're impatient about you know the physiological development of their bones their muscles like i'm i i didn't really well i've worked out since i was about 17 18 but i didn't really get muscular until i was about early to mid 20s i'd say mid 20s i was kind of relatively skinny guy but you know now if that guy is watching someone like clavicular or some other influences online you're like well how can i get myself some of these peptides because i don't want to wait six or seven years while you know i'm missing out on girlfriends or whatever you know you might think but you know because when you're young you think bigger muscles is they're going to eat equal more attraction to girls and it's actually not the case it's not the case at all um so yeah you've just got to be you've just to be conscious of what's being pushed in front of you and why because there are all sorts of interests constantly trying to subvert your attention towards things that serve their purposes um and quite often we can be unaware of that so the best defense against that is to always ask why are you doing this and why are you doing that and why am i seeing more of this but um and then have multiple sources like loads of sources loads of opinions so like if you have a particular opinion on you know the u.s war on on iran for example um you need to be reading the opinions of people who are both supporting and uh protesting uh this war to really understand all the interests that are being presented because as soon as you do that what you'll see is these these organized campaigns will become more apparent to you because they all use the same language the same talking points the same you know bullet points um because they're coordinated and so you'll be able to see when you're being manipulated much clearer much much more easily and that's the one thing once you have an awareness of that and you've developed that sort of muscle memory of how to notice these manipulation campaigns you'll be you'll be much more sensitive to them and so the whole thing is to inoculate yourself against manipulation and the best way to do that is to just have an open source of information that comes you know multiple sources on any topic um and learn how to qualify so i have a preference for individual journalists and analysts over any organization so like when i was younger i'd read the economist and think you know the economist is a as an organization is a is a credible organization to take an analysis of you know any relevant situation and uh but it turns out no they they have a massive bias as well i'd much rather read three or four pieces on you know global liquidity from different analysts than just rely on an organization like the economist or you know whatever um because that way you're going to get consent dissenting opinions and and i really like that twitter is a place where a lot of these analysts can have it out and and while it it can be a little bit um messy sometimes because people lead with their egos actually through through that conflict and exchange of opinions you can get to the truth yourself and you can sort of see for yourself who deals with the issues from first principles and who resorts to ad hominem attacks and ego and all that sort of stuff so just expose yourself to more and more information yeah from different sources yeah yeah no i think it's really important to have many new sources because i think a lot of centralized news is uh very much kind of um like kind of learning what you're kind of being told what to know rather than having your own thoughts and yeah again it as i've i've said this before in in many episodes basically it's it seems like it's raising a generation of kind of workers rather than thinkers and it kind of it it not only does it affect what people politically believe or or believe about the world but it also affects how they act outside of that in terms of if they're told something they're just going to do it blindly rather than thinking what are the different outcomes my actions could possibly serve yeah i mean media literacy is something that you know almost everybody thinks they have but the ways in which we can be manipulated they can be so subtle you don't even know it's happening unless you're sort of consciously looking for it um yeah and you can go you can go a bit too much the other way like there are some people that just join dots that are just not going to work and i think that's a big part of it i think that's a big part of it i think that's not there like you know you'll be like oh yeah such and such was an investor in this and they've got like 0.6 percent of interest in a company but you know they'll present the story like they control it or something and you know it just you know you see what i mean like if you if you've got if you've got a substantial interest in a company sure you might have influence over what they do and their relationships and whatever but you know you may have invested in a fund that you own five percent of and that fund probably owns like a two percent share of some company so you know you own less than 0.01 percent of it but they'll act like you're like partners in crime or something anyway so so you can go the other way and join join dots that are just not there but it's it's all a subjective exercise anyway and ultimately i think people people are ultimately looking to confirm biases according to their disposition as well so i think that's a big part of it and i think people are ultimately looking to confirm biases according to their disposition as well so i think if you're anti-authoritarian you will constantly look for that like in the bitcoin space for example um you know there are certain properties of bitcoin that we take as being you know virtuous like decentralization and so if you're not a particularly um intelligent person you might take that to mean that decentralization in every aspect of life all over the world is a virtue and actually that's not the case in some aspects you want centralization right like you know you want the identity of your parents to be known you don't want it decentralized for example right like i mean that's a bit that's a bit out there i mean like there are certain instances where for example decentralization is is perfect for persistence like if you want to survive um but centralization beats decentralized entities every time in a head-on war like if you're going to war you want to be centralized not decentralized um if it's to win that battle but if it's to persist right like as in survive it's better to be decentralized like dr dr jack cruz we started the interview with him you know decentralized medicine what is he saying was like well the way a lot of these organizations centralized the the development and the distribution of knowledge such that they only allow certain narratives to escape certain and decentralized medicine is a lot of people analysing, well not only just analysing the data but running the experiments, sharing anecdotally and with the data and then sort of combining their knowledge and their experiences to come to the truth, right? Whereas the centralised guys, they do it all through a very controlled methodical process that does not let anything out that contravenes the accepted narrative and so there's a narrative that's already set and everything else has to conform with that. We've seen that in history like we've seen that with the whole cholesterol and sugar and carbohydrates debate where they decided cholesterol is bad so make make the data fit that and we've got 60-70 years of heart disease as a result and we saw the same thing with cigarettes you know cigarettes don't cause smoking apparently and they did everything that they could to sort of obfuscate the reality that they did and we got you know 100 years of lung cancer so yeah sometimes decentralisation is a virtue other times it's not. Yeah I agree um yeah I think I mean sometimes with all the the kind of health stuff I think I think what I will say is having a whole world that's ill is very profitable sort of situation for a lot of bigger companies so yeah yeah and especially it just goes back it just goes back to like make sure that you're aware of the interests that are trying to influence you yeah yeah and so you know we started you started off with the question about news and it just comes back to that if you're aware of whose interests are being pushed and then you can interpret the information accordingly. Yeah absolutely and I think that's the key point of it always making sure you interpret it in a way that suits you rather than that what suits the narrative that narrative that they've given you. Yeah even before the interpretation is just aware of what's being presented to you right so like if you're just aware of what is being presented and by whom by which interests that can help your interpretation. Yeah absolutely. Absolutely yeah well I mean I think yeah headlines are a big part of that and I mean you went from posting headlines to kind of sitting down to two hour conversations with the podcast so why did you start the podcast and like kind of why did you do it when the account was already so massive? Well I think it's just part of fulfilling the potential of the brand but also it was something that I like the idea of sitting with people and talking to them and learning from them I like the idea of having a podcast for that reason and so this gave me the opportunity to do that and I want to see if I'd be any good at it that's it really yeah. Yeah absolutely I think that's a it's a good idea. It's a good answer and it is yeah it's an important thing to be able to rather than just kind of scroll and just get the fast information it's just sit down and kind of do more of a deep dive so you can make sure you fully understand what information is being presented to you kind of thing. Yeah I mean when I watch podcasts I have loads of questions that pop into my mind in the course of a conversation and I just thought wouldn't it be great if I could just ask those and I guess a podcast allows me to do that myself so rather than relying on someone else to have that conversation it's an enormous privilege to be able to go to Jeff Booth let's sit down and talk and we have that conversation in exactly the way that I want to have it so hopefully like my curiosity represents or reflects the interests of other people as well in my audience because I don't just want to be in a situation where I'm just sort of like asking a question answer question answer I don't want that I want it to be a flowing conversation. Yeah I mean when I watch podcasts I have loads of questions that pop into my mind in the course of a conversation and I just thought wouldn't it be great if I could just ask those and I guess a podcast allows me to do that myself so rather than relying on someone else to have that conversation in exactly the way that I want to have it so hopefully like my curiosity represents or reflects the interests of other people as well in my audience because I don't just want to be in a situation where I'm just sort of like asking a question answer question answer I don't want that I want it to be a flowing conversation where I can follow up where I'm more curious and then explore other areas until we hit another spot of interest and curiosity and we go deeper into that as well so and that's my style other people are much more structured and circumspect and they pre plan and that's fine because that's a completely different style but it's not what I want to do I want it to be more free flowing and conversational and so hopefully that works for me. It may it may not and I have to pivot but that's that's part of the process of finding out not only what you want to do but what also works for you as well. No absolutely I think it's all about what works for you and I mean people and viewers can clearly see if it's if it feels awkward or not right for you then it will it will it will come across quite quickly. Yeah. Yeah. What so for example what would you say. Is the hardest part of interviewing that you didn't really know about beforehand. So when we first started out I just have just having an awareness of how you present and how you conduct the conversation and making sure that that is something that viewers want to. Actually watch. So when I first started I thought oh let's just it'll just be like having a conversation like I've been a coffee shop something with somebody. And and the audience just gets to watch that and be a part of that but actually that doesn't make for a very compelling viewing at all because first of all. The audience is interested in the guest not me because I don't know me right they they just getting to know me so it's not like Tucker Carlson. People know him. They know him and he is a point of interest when he's interviewing someone else and so they don't mind that sort of injection of personality and personal opinion same with Joe Rogan for example no matter how well formed your opinions might be when you're starting something and people don't really know you they're not really invested in necessarily getting to know what your opinions are as much so we sort of pivoted a little bit and said OK well I don't want it to be just straight. Question and answer but what is the happy medium between this which people are sort of like why are you telling me what you think we don't know you and that and so that's been a journey over about a year to find what that happy balance is. And I think we're pretty close to that so it's just you're always trying to find your voice a really good way to do that when you're first starting is to. emulate someone that you really admire. And see how that goes for you especially when you're young like. You know the best way. To learn very quickly is to emulate not copy not caricature but emulate so. To learn very quickly is to emulate not caricature but emulate so. some reaction and interest as well and when that when you get the two sort of overlapping that's when you've got what they call product market fit right so what you want to do meets what the audience wants more of and if you can get those to be like as close to 100 overlap then that's when you've got gold and then you just sort of go for it um in the meantime just be as hungry as possible to and curious to experiment and just see just try new things watch as i'm i hope and sure you do watch other channels and see if you can something that they're doing that might work for you not just bitcoin channels either like go and watch other podcasts go and watch non-podcasts go and watch other forms of video and see whether or not what they're doing could work for you like stephen barbara artlet diary of a ceo sort of innovated and pioneered the whole podcast introduction because they modeled that on um movie trailers they're like instead of just starting a podcast with hi who are you tell us what you do and it takes you three minutes to warm up why don't we just give them three minutes of the best bits of the podcast to spike their interest so that they have the motivation to hang around for a minimum of 15 to 20 minutes you know and that helps their retention and so now that's pretty much the standard for most podcasts we stopped doing that um because it was just too much effort but it's pretty much the standard every podcast does introductions like a movie trailer now um and and they they took an idea from movies when nobody in the podcast world was doing that so just keep doing that and you don't know what you're going to find yeah absolutely i will i'm just yeah it's all about learning but i think i think the main thing is just i'm not going to be able to do it all by myself i'm going to be able to do it all by myself i'm going to be able to do it all by myself i'm going to be able to do it all by myself so i think it's really important to just actually starting rather than just kind of thinking about it and waiting around for kind of perfection to come around it's more important to just get it going it's really three things that you need to do you've already started the next thing is to persist and the third thing is be curious enough to experiment and make mistakes until you find something that works and and your driving principle should be i want to give the audience more of what they want that's what you should be constantly thinking about how can i give them more of what they want so i think it's really important to just kind of thinking about it and then everything from there just follows right if you just think about those things you'll kill it eventually you'll kill it yeah start small finish big yeah thank you very much yeah well i mean obviously i'm i'm a teenager kind of doing the exact same thing that you're doing so if you were starting a show today with no following what would you do differently to how you've been doing it now starting a podcast from scratch yeah i would do it just as a single person um in front of the camera and i'd do kind of like a tim dillon style show where i'm just giving a rundown of everything um and injecting my my opinions and personality and some jokes and that's what i'd be doing i'd be making like 15 20 minute to an hour long so if it was high production high editing it'd be 15 minutes and if it was low production low editing it'd be like an hour um and i'd do that every week and i'd cover all the main issues from that week and that's what i would do because one you're not reliant on guests right because if you're if you're guest driven you need to be able to pull the guests in right and when you're just starting from scratch and nobody knows you that could be difficult to do um but that's what i would do that and i think actually um i think that would grow your channel faster much much faster than trying to get guests all the time because what you if you do that you everything that you're doing is a function of who you are as a person and so you're bringing a unique point of view and i think that's much more attractive than interviewing you know the next bitcoiner who's been on 10 other podcasts because people are going to be like why do i need to sub to this podcast this guy's everywhere and the next guy interview he's also been everywhere so you see what i mean like what's going to be how are you going to interview them differently but if what you did was instead a 15 minute show every week you know who's doing this really well uh you know joe consorti have you heard of joe consorti yeah yeah he's got a youtube channel and in the last two months he's come across a formulation and he does it more from a news analytical point of view so you don't have to do that if you don't want to but you need to find a formulation of what that 15 20 minute show means and his numbers are just through the roof absolutely through the roof and youtube the algorithm will reward you even if you've got zero subs if you make something like that that gets people watching it will push you so that's what i would do i would uh i would absolutely do that yeah okay thank you that is yeah because you're not reliant on anyone and it also helps because um it gives you the opportunity to hone your presentations and communication skills you're not reliant on anyone you don't have to get guests you will be sharpening up your editing and your storytelling the narrative skills that you need anyway like everyone needs to be able to develop storytelling skills that'll be great in life in general so if you do all of those things 15 minutes every week without fail and if you get really good at it do it twice a week like if your production skills are really good and you can do it really quickly do it twice a week and do that across the platforms where people your age are tick tock and whatever and and yeah use a style that appeals to them so you you don't need to attract people like me you need to attract people like you that's where so people like me might be biased in uh watching a younger person and go ah they're young what would they know be dismissive right even if that's that criticism is harsh i think a lot of people do that a lot of young people might not want to watch an older person right so do it for people like you and explain things and they'll be like oh i never knew that why aren't we why aren't we taught this at school like if that's a really good question that should be the subtext of every single video you make for your audience right um because they don't teach this stuff at school and it really matters yeah that's what i was doing and you could even make you know you could even cut that 15 minutes into shorts for example right so you might take that 15 minutes and post it on youtube but then you might get like three or four shorts from that post it on tick tock and instagram and uh attract people your age from there and then direct them to your youtube that's how i'll do it yeah yeah that is great advice actually i think i'll actually yeah i'm gonna definitely try and implement it and maybe go more that way yeah yeah you don't you won't need anybody to do that right um and you could you could comment on anything like you don't need to interview someone who's a macro analyst to comment on the fed's policies you don't need that you don't need someone you know who's an expert on anything you could take clips from different bits and pieces different interviews you can do that you know source them correctly in your show notes and whatever just do the right thing but you can do all of that and you're just putting stories together and if you can hone that skill i think within a few months you can become really good at that really good yeah yeah yeah i appreciate that thank you there yeah great advice you're welcome man any time thank you yeah yeah um well moving on to the next one moving on to more kind of the markets and stuff you of course had willy woo on recently and he came on your show and said the four-year cycle is dead do you buy that um yes and no i think the cycles everyone's gonna say no the four-year cycle is not dead because it it literally the bull market ended and the bear markets in the fourth year so the four-year cycles can't be dead we're literally going through it but if you have a look at the pattern of what's happened it's just so unusual in the sense that the bull the bull markets are just subdued so much that it could well be that we could see you know we could see a price recovery much faster than people anticipate rather than it taking another two and a half three years before you make a new all-time high we could actually see a new all-time high within 12 months of the bottom of the bull the bear market that's unprecedented we've never had that before and that could be a function of the fact that we just didn't go that high to begin with and maybe for the you know maybe we're going to see a much lower drawdown and a lot of people out there saying we've got another leg down i'm like maybe that's possible right we're just talking about scenarios here not i'm not telling you what i think is going to happen but i think you know if price stable price could stabilize around these levels i have been writing sort of tongue-in-cheek on the timeline that the bears have until the end of august and then we're taking over right the bulls are coming back and actually i i think the whole sell in may go away sort of thing for the summer you know the whole summer holiday period that that could um that could play out where we come back end of august hopefully they've resolved some of the geopolitical issues by then you know the bitcoin price is not really reacting to the latest um breakout in in war and so if they re if they genuinely resolve that by the end of the summer you know we could see a resurgence in the price it's been the bear market's been going about 12 months that's kind of about the period it takes for something to bottom out and i think the recovery is going to surprise a lot of people to the upside like it's going to be faster than a lot of people think and we could also see capital rotation from gold which has plateaued so historically every time gold plateaus bitcoin doesn't just go up it goes parabolic and so we don't know if that's going to play a role in the future i think it's going to play a role in the future but it looks like that's what's happening so far that gold is beginning to plateau it's been a few months will there be a capital rotation from ai i don't know but that's taken a lot of capital and attention away from bitcoin for sure and so let's just see there are a lot of things that can play out that could give us an all-time high within 12 months i see no reason why that can't happen see no reason why bitcoin has to then you know plot along for the rest of the two and a half three years before we get an all-time high um so i think people can people might be surprised by what happens in the next 12 18 months um i'm leaning towards the bottom is in yeah i think i think that's a few things are lining up that way the fractals aren't from previous bear markets but i can see this as being the bottom and that in eight weeks time bitcoin is well and truly into the 70s yeah i'd give that about a 50 50 chance but again like we're all just guessing right nobody knows right we're all just guessing yeah absolutely but i can see that playing out i can also see one last flush and a big bounce up from there as well i don't think we drop to like 50s and we stay there and you know we stay there for months i don't think that happens i i think if it is a flush out it happens and just bounces straight back up yeah so the the risks of buying right now are greatly diminished like this is a great time to start um dollar cost averaging and if you've got patient money it's i think it's a great time to just buy and forget as well like for years and just forget about it so it's a four-year cycle over and i think technically no um but it's threatening like bitcoin is threatening to destroy the four-year cycle and one of the things that sort of makes me think things are changing um is that we made an all-time high before the halving last cycle that was the first we've got a subdued two subdued bull markets in a row like last cycle in 21 22 was subdued this one even more so and so it makes me think it's moderating almost plateauing over and over again and i think it's a great time to start going and then we will see something significant happen within the next sort of 12 to 24 months which is way ahead of cycle so i think things are beginning to change slowly and we might see that happen rather suddenly yeah absolutely i think that's a kind of very interesting take and i think uh yeah all my viewers can go and research that and uh yeah be more be more kind of involved because we haven't really spoke much about kind of markets on the orange pill order yeah at all really yeah there are better there are better people to speak about markets than me um i try not to worry too much about that and just focus on news and building my business um and if you've got a business that's the best return on investment you'll ever have is just focus on growing your business and then whatever you buy in bitcoin hopefully you can just forget about that and then focus on growing your business and then whatever you buy in bitcoin hopefully you can just forget about that and then whatever you buy in bitcoin hopefully you can just focus on revenue especially if you're young focus on revenue income income income right and then when you've got whatever's left over put it into something that you can just forget right for years like invest with the mindset of what do i want to own for a minimum of five years but hopefully 10 years plus that's what you want to invest because you've got the benefit of patience as a young person if you've got an income if you've got a job and you've got whatever savings that you can put aside you want to be able to put it aside and just forget it and because you're so young you've got compounding in um the time to compound your gains over many years and that's when you'll make your real gains yeah it's not in the first year it's in the 10th year in the 20th year that's when you get really rich yeah absolutely i think i think that's great advice for all young people but uh yeah well actually going on to kind of bitcoin treasury treasury companies obviously they've been kind of metaplanet and the rest do you think they're good for bitcoin or a risk hiding in plain sight i think there's always risk with financialization but fundamentally i think if bitcoin is going to become the base layer of global capital these are things that will inevitably happen two there's absolutely nothing you can do about it three if it's not if it doesn't fit within your portfolio and financial objectives ignore them you don't have to buy them um and it really just comes back to what are you going to do about it like you can't do anything about it so like why are people worrying so much if they're trying to tell people that they're not good investment options well how do you know you you don't you don't know what someone's financial objectives are what their risk appetite is or whether or not they have an appetite for income so for example a lot of people and people i know and respect for example they're against these preferred shares i'm like actually well if you have a need for income there are not very many better uh income generating shares stocks to buy there are not that many that you can rely on and if you're bullish on bitcoin then it's basically it's basically the same bet to buy these preferred shares i'm not talking about the treasury company equity which is a different thing right those treasury company equities are effectively a leveraged bet on the bitcoin price but you get higher upside in bull markets but you know in bear markets you get a much bigger drawdown as well much bigger drawdown so if you don't have patient capital that can just ride those cycles out then you probably shouldn't be investing in them just stick to bitcoin so none of these are alternatives to bitcoin at all so what bitcoin provides nothing comes close to that in terms of censorship resistant um money nothing comes close to that right so we're talking about if you have a greater risk appetite so there are some people who invest in ai companies right now if i was a young person i would have most of my patient money in bitcoin but i would also make an allocation to ai companies right if i if i had a risk appetite for that if that's what i wanted to do um it's they're perfectly legitimate investment options as long as it's within a proper risk management framework um so my friend online stack hodler he made a post it's bitcoiner bitcoiner forever he's also a technological technology entrepreneur he made a post about um he says i think i think the right ai companies will offer a better risk reward risk return than bitcoin and it's true but if you can't pick those stocks just buy bitcoin just buy bitcoin right you don't have to pick the winner bitcoin is the winner right with ai you're you're betting on being able to pick winning companies and not everybody can right it's you just you just some people don't have that skill they don't have the ability to do the research they can't control their emotions they don't know how to pick you know investment cycles at the moment we're on an upswing for an investment cycle in in ai but maybe that could pop soon you don't know can you ride down the road and try to figure out how to do it you can't do it right you don't know how to do it you don't know how to do it you don't know how to do it you don't know how to do it you don't know how to do it right so these things need to be considered but what i'm trying to say is like there are people who speak against investing in equities and they say that's that's fiat games you're coining it's like no you're not you're investing in real businesses right and if you do your research properly uh investing in equities is a perfectly legitimate form of investment and don't let people scare you away scare you away from that but it's got to fit within your investment framework right your risk appetite as well Bitcoin is savings, a lot of people say that, right? And then you should have a portion of your portfolio that's more than just savings. It's equity investment. And equity by its very nature is higher risk, higher return potentially. But it's definitely higher risk. So you can't just look at the higher reward part of that equation. It's definitely higher risk. So how are you going to mitigate that risk? Are you going to learn about equity analysis? Are you going to subscribe to industry research? Are you going to be diligent in watching share price company releases you know it's work investing in equities right bitcoin you can set and forget there are no quarterlies there is no management fee there's no board of directors it's a commodity so just understand that you know buying uh nvidia is not the same as buying bitcoin right nvidia is a higher risk potentially higher reward company but it's playing a different space and it should if you do buy it it should be a much smaller percentage of your portfolio than bitcoin because bitcoin is savings right yeah does it make sense yeah no but um so for example like there are people who are much later in their life they've worked they've saved um and they need an income and so okay they don't have 20 or 30 years to sit on bitcoin they've made them money so their number one thing is make sure that they don't get diluted by monetary debasement so most of their income most of their um portfolio might be in in bitcoin maybe 50 right because they don't want to write if you're if you're 65 70 years old you don't want to go through a five-year bear market and live potentially the last 10 years of your life half of that in a bear market with a drawdown and your net worth is like half of what it was you don't want that right but you need income also so you might buy income producing assets preferreds could be one of those right but if you're a young person you don't stay away from preferreds you don't need them right you don't need them at all look if you're going to take higher risk go on go and learn how to invest in equities and keep your bitcoin as savings and then invest in equities yeah absolutely i think it's all about uh knowing exactly what you're putting your putting your money into so that is it for this one guys obviously do your own research on everything said in this episode if you're watching on youtube smash the subscribe button if you're listening on spotify or fountain leave us five star rating it genuinely helps the algorithm push us out to more young people who of course need to hear this and if this episode opened your eyes even just a little bit share it okay send it to a friend send it to your brother your sister your classmate or anyone that is of course how we orange peel the world one person at a time and of course remember our mission to orange pill every young person on the planet stack sats stack freedom and we'll catch you on the next episode thank you very much for coming on archie the pleasure thanks very much like for that one hit you're prepared to go through this long-term suffering and you come to it for the greed but you stay with it for the revolution Thank you.