Exploring Phage Technology in Acne Treatment with Phyla’s Dr. Yug Varma

Hey guys, real quick, have you checked out droplet? It is by far the most revolutionary skincare device on the market. Basically, it takes those harder to penetrate ingredients and pushes them deeper into the skin layers. They're actually getting to the cells that can utilize those ingredients. Recently, they just launched their Exo-Syram Mist, which is a phenomenal product because it's using real exo-Syram that are shipped to you on ice, so you don't have to worry about them being degraded by the time you use them. And so when you put the capsule of exo-Syram into your droplet device, it creates a fine mist. That mist is allowing those exo-Syram to be pushed into the layers where they're going to actually be able to interact with the cells that can use them for signaling. If you want to check out the device, go to droplet.io, use our code "Anarchy" A-N-A-R-C-H-Y to get a very special bundle deal on this Exo-Syram and droplet device duo. Hey guys, welcome back to Skincare and Archi. This is your host, Efta. I'm really excited about our interview today and the brand today that we're going to be introducing all of you to because as you know, we love a great, heavy-hitting science-focused brand. When it comes to skin health, especially when it comes to things that affect so many consumers, like Acne, for example. I think that we're always seeing a surge in the market when it comes to acne-related products, acne-related skin care, preventative skin care. So there's a lot of questions I have in this space. And I think the brand we're interviewing today is really coming up with a level solution. So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to the co-founder of the brand "Holtz' Byla" which is focused on microbiology, virology, and he's going to tell us all about that. But welcome, you're a Gverma. Dr. Gverma, welcome. Hey, so great to be on the podcast. Thank you for having me. Yeah, no, I'm really excited to chat with you and really learn from you. But if you could tell us Dr. Gver, like just to begin us, you know, like start us off with your journey and what led to the creation of Byla. Yeah, absolutely. So a little bit more about myself. My background is that I'm a scientist. I got my PhD from Johns Hopkins and then proceeded to do a postdoc at UCSF where I was studying the human microbiome in its early days. This was in the early 2010s. And I'd been aware throughout grad school of this technology called "Fage Technology" and, you know, explain more what that is. But I was basically looking for a really good way to deploy this technology, right? Like tackle a disease or a state or condition with this technology. And that's when I learned about acne, where, of course, I knew about acne, but more about kind of the industry and the state of research, where I realized that although acne is a huge burden, it's the number one skin disease in the world. About 85% of us get it at some point in our lives, so it's a nearly universal condition. But the technologies that we use to fight it are from weighing the past, right? Yeah. So you've got your clear soul, which has been a brand for longer than most of us has been alive. And benzoproxide, which is about 1950s technology. And even things like acutane and red noise, which are the front line of treatment in acne, especially in the more severe endocausal treatment cases, is 1980s technology. And that's not to say that these products work flawlessly and that there's no problem with them. There's obviously many problems, one of which is relapses. The other is a lot of side effects. And I was so surprised learning about, you know, I'd been immersed in microbiome research and learning about the latest in gut microbiome research, skin microbiome research, etc. I was shocked to learn that most, if not all companies in this space in dermatology had all but shut their acne pipelines. They were not doing research in acne. They did not care to bring out the next generation in acne care. And as a result, I think that people have suffered. I think that people are being given things that are really old technology that we could do far better. And so I started diving deep into the science behind acne and what we know about it, right? The level of knowledge that we have about its pathogenesis, what causes it, how it progresses, etc. And to me, it was a very clear path that one of the main pillars of acne care, which is for acne causation, which is the overgrowth of this one bacteria that is central in acne, can be very easily controlled with phased technology. And so that was kind of the spark that set me on this journey and brought me together with some folks who themselves had their personal journey. The suffering from acne for many years had been on racquetaine for many rounds and which had given them liver damage so they had a restricted diet and yet they did not cure their acne. And unfortunately, that is not an uncommon story. So those were some of the origins of starting phylog and sort of kicking on from there. I did some foundational research and submitted an NIH grant to support this research. We were shocked and surprised and delighted that the NIH accepted it. And so we got some NIH funding to set us on our way. We completed the rest of our foundational research, spent a number of years sort of pivoting to the consumer health space because we really wanted to improve access of technology and bring it in front of people right away without any barriers which involved a number of challenges, including how do you take up a live microorganism and stabilize it in a serum or in a cream formulation so that people can just grab it off the shelf. And so yeah, phylog is more. Yeah, that's really fascinating to me. And I love that you, you know, it just really comes from true academic medicine. You know, like the real story is not based on just somebody finding an herb somewhere. And I hate to say it like that, but there's a lot of stuff out there. You know, speaking of old technologies, I 100% agree with everything you said about the outdated nature of a lot of the pharmaceuticals we have available for acne. But also more importantly, even when I look at the OTC space, oftentimes I see that we are so hyper focused on, like, you know, for example, traditional botany, like medical botany and we take one thing and then we create, like, you know, full systems, but that's just not how the body works. But it's very interesting to me to see the true merger of biotech in this space, you know, and bringing together so many disciplines to come up with targeted solutions for acne, which is different for everybody. One of the questions I have for you, you brought up the acne, and I'm curious how your technology works against the pathologic versus the physiological strains of the acne. Like how's the difference? Yeah, that's a really great question. So let me just sort of set the table by explaining what fages are, how they work. Okay. Yeah. Fages short for bacteria, fage, it literally means bacteria eater. And fages or bacteria, fages are tiny viruses that kill and eat bacteria. They're ubiquitous. They are everywhere in our world. They're actually the most enumerous, like, warm water planet. They're in seawater. They're in soil. Billions of them are in our body, right? So we're surrounded and covered by them. Fages are very interesting because they do not affect human cells at all. They don't really interact with our cells very much, but they are nature's best killer and best defense against bacteria. So the really interesting part of this is that there was a study done in 2016 looking at the microbiomes of people with healthy skin and people with acne, looking for significant and then systematic differences between them. What they found was that these fages that kill see acne are quite common on healthy skin, but they're quite rare and almost not found on acne skin. So this gives a rise to a very interesting proposition, which is that we all have annoying friends who skate through life without having acne, without really having blemishes. They don't wash their face. They don't take care of themselves, but they look, skin looks amazing, right? And they're like, well, I know, and it just never got acne. Chances are they are carrying these fages on their skin, which is naturally limiting the overgrowth of see acne and preventing it from causing the inflammation that we know as acne. Now to your question of there are some benign strains, some good strains of see acne's on a skin and there are some pathogenic strains. Research has shown that the good strains, which are known as ribotypes, are in six. They are they carry with them crisper and other sort of natural defenses, acquired defenses that make them resistant to fage. And so as a result, these fages naturally target some of the most virulent, some of the most acne causing strains of see acne's, whereas there's not complete immunity, but partial immunity, but to these fages from the beneficial strange, which is, which is we just kind of lucked into that, but that's kind of the phenomenology. That's so interesting. So there is, that was that was going to be one of my questions, was kind of diving more into this understanding of like, you know, I mean, when we're using something like this, I mean, this is very neat, right? This is very novel, what you're doing. I've never seen something like this for acne, especially something topical, you know, like a topical disease. So one of my biggest questions is about like, you know, resistance, bacterial resistance to fages. How did you approach that, you know, and like, how did you incorporate that understanding into what you're creating here? Yeah, we approached in a few different ways. So the first is that obviously any bacteria, when there's a pressure on it for survival, whether you're throwing antibiotics at it or something like fages, they will tend to get resistant to it over time. And this obviously we see in the case of antibiotics quite acutely because now we're rapidly approaching a host antibiotic era where some of our kind of major tools to combat bacteria and bacterial infections are becoming too worthless. And there's a real danger that these, you know, ineffective antibiotics will lead to a scenario which, you know, we faced in the late, up to the late 1800s and early 1900s, where a simple scratch in a playground or a simple bug that you picked up could be life threatening. Vagies, you have an advantage. And the way I like to think of it is this with with antibiotics, you're starting a race against bacteria that you are guaranteed to lose. Because what happens is you discover new antibiotic, you spend billions of dollars and, you know, decades trying to get it approved. Then you put it in the clinic and in a couple of years, if you're lucky, usually it's a year, you start to see resistance, resistance spreads pretty quickly and soon you're back to square one, right? You have to develop new antibiotic, more billions, more decades. But phages, they are inherently more mutable than bacteria. In other words, unlike small molecules, phages can evolve. And so if a bacteria gets resistant to a phage, you can go back and find a phage that beats that resistance every single time. And since phages have an incredibly good safety profile, you can then with established, you know, CMC, which is manufacturing procedures and purification procedures, very safely and reliably make this new phage and maybe added to a cocktail or, you know, have it as a separate product. All of this to say that when you're starting a race with phages on your side, you will always beat bacteria. Yeah. Now in the specific case of our phages, we've actually done a lot of in vitro testing. So we've challenged the bacteria again and again and again to see what is the rate of resistance and we know when do the bacteria become resistance? And to our surprise, resistance did not really emerge. And this also supported by a literature where this sort of bacteria, phage pair does not seem to, for example, with E. coli phages, you start to see resistance relatively fast, same as aminella and clapsila. And you know, many other bacteria and their phages. But with this particular one, you don't really see that phage resistance emerging rapidly or at all. And so the answer to your question is we are pretty confident that that phage resistance won't emerge. And if it does, we have a relatively simple way to tackle it, which is to find and develop a phage that that overcomes that resistance and that becomes a part of our part of that is so cool. That's so fascinating doing. I mean, I, I love this because you're so right and everything is that about also you're up antibiotic resistance. It's become this issue that I think nobody talks about because we have been prescribing doxycycline for like literal decades at this point. And kids are becoming resistant to these antibiotics. I mean, that's just the reality. And not to mention all of the other things that these very broad spectrum antibiotics used in traditional acne care, you know, they can also be used in different diseases based on what you get. And so when you become resistant to something that's so broad spectrum or something that is so widely used, it's also going to cause this downstream problem, you know, later on in your life as well. That's my understanding for all of our listeners. So this to me is like, wow, you know, I mean, like we're really taking it to a step where we can completely mitigate not only for acne, but in my opinion, on a more like greater public health level, like you can really deal with these unnecessary resistance cases with traditional antibiotics. So this is very, very cool to me, you know, from that medical standpoint and clinical standpoint. I think one of the big questions I also have is when we're dealing with, you know, just the recovery time, right? Because dermatologists, I believe, will prescribe antibiotic for, I mean, many months, it takes many months, if not years to really, or sometimes for a majority of your lifetime, you know, you're on it if it doesn't go away. But in comparison to that with the technology you've created, I mean, how has have the results been in terms of timeline? Yeah, I'm like hearing like cystic acne and stuff, you know, totally, you know, I'll kind of talk a little bit about the underlying. What's what's happening kind of at a microscopic level or in the skin and then and talk about the results? Yeah. So we know that, you know, obviously hormones are play a big role in acne, but so does the overall growth of C acne. And this is reflected in the fact that things like antibiotics, benzoproxide and even retinoids, which have anti, all have antibacterial effects are effective in treating acne. Right. Now, because these are all sort of broad spectrum antibacterials, in other words, they're going after the bad bacteria, but they can't help, but kill good bacteria as well. And so what happens is, you know, I likened a microbiome to a garden. And when it's in balance, you're healthy when it goes out of balance, because like, you know, a weed takes over or something over grows, then you have an imbalance and that causes the problem. That causes inflammation in the case of acne. Using antibiotics would be akin to going into your garden, seeing a weed, right? And bringing out a can of gasoline, sprinkling it over your garden, and setting the whole thing on fire, right? Yes, you are getting rid of your weed, but no one would do that. Instead, what you do is you look down at the weed, you scoop it up and you're done. You replace it with dirt or another plant or a patch of grass. That's exactly what this technology does, because phases are very specific and they only kill that one bacteria that they are targeted against, which is the acne and they do not affect the growth of or the niche of any other bacteria. And so as a result, it's very specific. It's very targeted. And, you know, to your question of how fast we see results for things like hormonal acne, we see results pretty quickly, sometimes within days or a week. For things like cystic acne, where the acne is deeper and the phases have to penetrate sort of further, what we see is it takes a little longer, but over time, the microbiome changes and the body detects that change and it stops throwing out the massive amounts of inflammation. You start to see the cystic acne not just received, but stay away, which is so important, right? Because so many of us who sit suffer from acne are so frustrated by the relapses, where you start something, it's going well. It's a little harsh, but you know, you deal with it because you're excited by the results. And then after a month, two or a month, three, it stops working. Your acne comes roaring back and you're miserable. You're back to square one. You don't know what to do. And because of the lack of innovation and research that's been going on for decades in this space, you have no choice. You go back to another brand, which is selling the same stuff in a different bottle. So we're introducing a new technology and giving people an approach that, and a choice that they've never had before. Right. No, this is really, really cool. And I was going to actually ask you if somebody is like, you know, say there's a consumer out there who's tried everything, you know, and they're really looking for that next option. Like what is the, how does the brand recommend that we go about starting, you know, the use of the products and do we need to stop anything else when we're using them? Like if you're on, if you're on our certain prescription, I mean, do you guys suggest we stop using things like Acutane or something before we use it or can we use it safely alongside the pharmaceuticals people are given for acne? Yeah. So the reality is that phage is are naturally present on our skin already. Right. Like I said, in fact, they're present on healthy skin, much more than acne skin. So in fact, they're associated disproportionately with health. Yeah. And so also there's been decades and decades, probably a hundred years of research on the safety of phages. And because they're everywhere, they're all around us. We're exposed to them all the time. So safety is really good because this approach takes a look and tackles the microbiome in this very targeted way. It's also compatible with pretty much everything else you could put on it. And because it's a microorganism, you know, we recommend you don't use it with benzoproxide because benzoproxide is a very strong accident. And we'll, we've done tests showing that it kills the phages pretty quickly. We are, we totally understand a lot of our customers come saying, Hey, I've had acne figures. I'm taking this and that for it. I kind of committed to, you know, let's say a round of acutane, right? It's expensive. My doctor put me on it. I'm halfway through it. I don't want to get off it. Totally understand. This product will be compatible with all of those, right? Whether you're using antibiotics or, you know, whether you put on makeup or you're using sunscreen, et cetera. Of course, ideally, we would like for you to try this and know other acne medication for the simple reason that when your skin gets better, you know what to use and what to keep using because if you're using two anti acne products and your skin gets better, you don't know which one to keep using and which one to stop, right? So that's really more of a, like, you're doing a science experiment on yourself kind of thing. But because this is so safe, we recommend that you don't stop anything if you don't have to our own sort of ethos of the brand and of our sciences, a bit of one of minimalism where we're like, you know, try not to choke and put too many products on your skin, the lesser the better. And that's one of the reasons why, you know, we've been in the market for many years, but we only sell three products. We don't sell people toner or, you know, this or that or things that are extra. You just want them to focus on a few things that are really key to their skin health. Yeah. No, this, it makes sense to me the way you guys have developed your products, like in the system because it's a very easy routine to follow. And it's something that, you know, for me, I mean, the thing I could relate to was proactive when the proactive was really working. For me, it worked. You know, I had it very early on and this really reminds me of those early dates. you know, and of like finding a solution that worked for me. And I think a lot of times the consumers that chime into us, you know, I'll tell you from our experience, they're really looking for something that they can do every day. Like I get this question all the time, you know, it's like my acne is getting worse, I've tried all these ingredients on the market, you know, just like the buzzword, the ingredients that everybody's always writing about. And people are frustrated, you know, that's what I keep hearing is people are frustrated. So it's a problem. Like, and I think that's where acne to me, you know, when we think about skincare, it's so unique when you're targeting acne. Like you do have to go for the brands, as for all the listeners, you do have to go for the brands, you guys that are really science forward, you know, that they're thinking of acne in a different way. They're looking outside the box because I really do believe, you know, Dr. Romer, what you were explaining earlier, you know, about there are a lot of these things that we're doing that are a bit dated, you know, at this point. And I really firmly believe that, you know, as a consumer, and I really think that we have to address that. So when consumers are shopping for acne related products, it always like kind of, you know, for me, it gives me more hope for people that there are technologies like this coming out, you know, that are providing new solutions, they're new approaches, rather than just the old, every day, you know, the things we've already done for decades that aren't really, I don't know, they're not the best options anymore. So it's very exciting indeed. Totally. And, you know, it's not just you, it providers like you that are needing this Vanguard, but it's customers as well. You know, I heard someone in the industry referred to a lot of skincare as lotions and potions. Yeah. You know, their point of view is, hey, yeah, like for many years, and even now, you know, and I'm the first to do it. If I'm shopping for deodorant or moisturizer, you know, I'll sniff it. I'll put it on my skin. If it feels good, then yeah, I'll buy it. But with acne, there's a completely different calculus because the people who are suffering from acne know that it's on their face, know that they've suffered from it for many years, and they just want it off, right? And they're like, I don't care if it looks like clay and smells awful. If this works, I am a fan for life. And if it doesn't, then I will drop it so fast and move on because I don't, you know, I have a problem to solve and I don't have the time to mess around. And so as a result, I think the modern consumer, and I would say not just for acne, but even in other realms of skincare and consumer products, are looking for performance. We don't just care about elotions and potions anymore, what does it look like, you know, color and texture and smell and taste, but it's about the performance. And we're happy to swim in those waters because we stand by our technology. We are, you know, I'm a scientist first. And so for us, it's really delightful to bring this kind of biotechnology in a bottle to an industry which I think is rapidly adopting and embracing these cutting-edge technologies. Yeah, absolutely. No, I really, really applaud your work and all the amazing science and knowledge that has gone into developing phyla. I mean, I really love the products. I won't lie to you. They feel great too. That's another thing we never, we didn't get to really talk about the user experience and the experience of using the products. They're really lovely to use. And they leave your skin very soft. And so, you know, in general, it's just a great, great idea and it's so well executed, you know, in terms of like keeping the, you know, keeping the expectations in mind of consumers now, you know, in terms of what we expect from texture and feel and the experience of the product. I just think you and your team have really kind of, you know, really hidden on the head with us. So really huge hops off to you and your work and your science. It's really cool. So thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Yeah. And for everyone listening, if you have any questions at all about any of the topics that we discussed, I know it went a little fast. So if you have any more questions, please shoot us an email. And we will definitely contact Dr. Romance team. Maybe we can get you some answers. But this has been so fun. And I hope you guys would go check out Fila, especially if you know somebody in your life who's dealing with acne and they can't find a solution or everything they've tried has just not worked. Like genuinely, I really urge you guys. Go like follow the science. Like I cannot stress that enough. Like follow the science when you're shopping for brands and options because it will lead you to a better place than, yeah, the old, you know, brands of the world that have been around 50 years. Sometimes they're not the best ones. So just check out the brand. Let us know what you think. And I will be back next time. Thank you. Hey guys. So I hope you love that episode. Please make sure to hit subscribe. If you're tuning in to us on any podcast platform, we are available on so many different platforms. So wherever it is that you're tuning in, just go hit subscribe. You'll be immediately notified when we publish new episodes. This way you're able to tune in to amazing insights from experts, brand founders, industry leaders, authors, all the wonderful people that we host. And that's very important for me because I love to hear from you guys and really understand what you love and what you want to hear more of. Also make sure to give us a follow on all of our social media outlets. We're available on Instagram, TikTok, X, you name it, we're there. We also have a blog on Medium. So if you're a reader and you love Medium blogs, check us out on Medium. We published some really great articles on there that do deeper dives than just what's available on the podcast. And it's really a great place for all of you science geeks out there that want to learn a little bit more. We go above and beyond with our research and making sure we're bringing you information that you usually probably won't hear about in other outlets. So check us out, leave us a comment, leave us a review, and we'll be back next time with another episode. Thank you.