Expert reflection: health, inclusivity and stigma with Ninti

Welcome to the Lazy Women's Making it in Western Europe series, where we take you for the personal stories of young Eastern European women and their quest for defining demeaning of identity and belonging. Hi everyone, welcome back to Lazy Women's Making it in Western Europe podcast series. I'm Jofi and today we record a very special expert episode together with Olga and Fatumata from Ninti. Ninti is a digital solutions based, new service that really aims to bring reproductive health to the forefront of work discussions and to bring conversations that are seen as intimate or taboo to workplace settings. They are currently based in France, but all their content is available both in French and English and I thought it would be interesting to get their perspective on the whole topic of making it in Western Europe and Eastern European women's immigration journeys from a really different perspective and this perspective being the one that we really like here at Lazy Women as well, I feel like we don't talk about it enough, the women's health perspective and how your understanding of your own rights and health might be also influenced by being on the move and how it influences especially your availability or lack of availability of knowledge and resources when it comes to your own reproductive health. So I thought it was a very interesting enlargement of the topic, it's loosely connected and I really enjoyed talking to Olga and Fatumata or shortly Fatu who both come from a very interesting background, they are both immigrants in France and they decided themselves to make it in the West by launching ninty their new companies, so let's dig in and we are really interested to hear what you think about this angle, it's something a bit different, something new, but I think it's an equally important conversation to be had. Welcome back Lazy to our making it in Western Europe Podcast series, today we have a very special episode, an expert episode, I'm here with Olga and Fatumata from ninty and we will discuss everything related to women's health and how it's related or potentially related to belonging, identity, immigration, diving into their own stories but also touching on the important work they do as part of ninty. So welcome on the podcast, happy to have you here and yeah I guess just could you please begin by introducing yourself, who you are, where do you come from, where are you right now and also a bit of introduction into your interest or professional pass. So Fatumata do you want to go first? Hi Tossi, thank you so much for having us and for thinking of us for this podcast, that was really nice of you actually. So I am Fatumata Li, I'm born and raised in Guinea, West Africa, I moved from Guinea when I was 14, I was in Tunisia, I was living with my aunt in Tunis and then I left Tunis after my baccadaria and I moved to France, so a lot of moving and languages and backpack. When I arrived in France I did a Fatumata Li do that, so we were living at Montpellier, it was a very nice university and after my studies I moved to Paris, I mean I'm trying to make it a bit short but moved to Paris and in Paris I did an internal straight, in between I was in the US and then I came back to Paris and in Paris I did a master in marketing so basically I was working for a financial organization as an internal so it's apprenticeship by the word in English and when I finished my apprenticeship I was hired right after and I stayed in that company for 10 years. Okay, thank you Olga, what about you? Thank you Josie, thank you Fatumata for introducing yourself as well, so from my perspective so Olga also a very global experience I would say, so I was born in Russia so I lived in Moscow before moving into Europe so I did study my studies in a very technical field so engineering there, I did actually study AI and computer science which is surprising working now in the field of women health and trying to use technology in that perspective but I just started there and then I also moved to Slovenia, I did an exchange semester in Poland also in Italy and basically finished my studies in France and while being in the engineering field to some extent and kind of doing a graduate program as well at the IBM in the past which brought me to the field of sales and marketing I kind of questioned like what's the link between technology in the world of business and I did not want to continue studying and somehow like doing a PhD came as an opportunity so I decided to stay and actually did a doctor like a PhD in the company so in France you can do it so I was in the semiconductor industry working in innovation and design and actually stating that field ever since so I was trying to bring the link between the technology and the world of user experience, the design, I stayed with the university with the engineering school for a few more years then also joined the spin-off which was a consultancy which still is called STEAM, went there for a few years and then somehow decided to go to Australia for a few years with interest in healthcare and tried to kind of see how we can leverage technology and all the research that we do at the service of people that can benefit from that and that's where the focus to some extent to healthcare came in and then we started working on Nini with Patumata, I wanted to go to Europe and I also decided to move back to Europe for that reason and we are both caught in from Paris so we didn't say that. Yeah and actually as you were both kind of describing your stories and everything I could already send some common points but I was just wondering how did that experience of you know moving and I guess the idea of wanting to move or wanting to change and explore different contexts like how did that influence you in your professional context maybe a while ago you can start. Thank you I mean the short answer a lot and it's still influencing me and I think us I can to some extent speak from both perspective I mean moving across different countries working the intercultural multicultural setting I think it's enriching. It really helps you to see the world from different perspectives it also helps you not take things for granted you really see the beauty in everything and you also see the complexity in so many different things that perhaps you wouldn't see if you haven't moved as much and I believe that every experience is interesting and enriching enough so like you gain some things but you also do some things right so in a way it comes with a cost it comes with a cost of not maybe seeing your family or your close friends while you grow up and you move around you always help to rebuild your life to some extent from different perspectives and you kind of carry it with you which enriches you but also makes you lose certain things so it's a trade-off in a way and I will let Patuma tell maybe to compliment that from her perspective. Thank you Olga yeah a lot of things you've shared resume when I think about it I feel like it's a hard question because it's been my 14 year old she did not really want to move I didn't I never chose to move in many ways my parents told me that I had to move so to have access to better education you have this idea of elsewhere is kind of better which now being a mature adult no woman it's not so binary it's not better it's just like have different kind of opportunities so I would say that I never chose to move but it definitely contributed to build the way I see the world in so many ways and I'm grateful that I was able to experience that because even though it's full of hardships, it's also very like Olga shared you see the world with different lenses and it gives you this ability to let only question where you come from but also appreciate where you come from and also question the world differently which I feel like when you never really move you can sometimes just have a very not clear way of seeing the world and understanding something. Yeah I can totally relate to that and growing up with that idea of like the grass is always greener on the other side it can you know like it can make you a bit like difficult to be happy and you know like it can make your life sometimes a bit difficult in that sense of always looking for something else so yeah I can totally relate to these experiences and also to what you said Olga about and of yeah you are enriched but you also lose a lot of things so here we are though in Paris all three of us trying to make it and build something that we feel is worthwhile and important so can you tell me a bit more about how you kind of found it ninti what is ninti what's your purpose and how has it been influenced by your own experiences as a woman and yeah I like fatumata if you want to kind of begin explaining it. Yeah sure so what's the purpose it's funny but yes it's question because I just I mean I I wasn't a meeting this morning with a company where we're talking about infertility and how to support workplaces and woman and within the meetings there was this person from the company that was sharing her personal story of fertility issues and it was really moving it was quite an emotional moment and I feel like I don't always ask myself what's the purpose of ninti but during that meeting I was like this is exactly why we're doing what we're doing is we are bringing those conversations in workplaces where it has never been built to have those conversations and here we were with you know like managing directors from companies, human resources, diversity and inclusion asking themselves how can we better help our employees going for fertility treatments and going for hardships and vulnerable moments linked to their sexual and reproductive health and I was like yeah this is a great conversation to have and this is exactly what ninti is doing is we are bringing that conversation in your workplace and we are giving the keen to companies so that they're able to have this conversation but also they're able to support their employees with the tools that we built today we have an online platform where you can connect greater accounts feeling a questionnaire based on where you are at in your current life stage and based on that you will have personalized concerns on your fertility journey you will have care coordinators that will pop up but you can have access to you will have a community to lean on to events that we organize so it's a kind of like a one space space or people navigating hardship and as women and people with ovaries we do navigate hardships like not all the time but we fake difficulties linked to that so nintis mission is really amazing and I'm really happy to do it with Olga. Well I can only 100% relate to it first I'm very happy to do it with Fatumata as well and also everything that you just said in a way we always say that it's social mission that motivated us in the long run we know it's not going to happen overnight we know that it requires structural changes in the way the corporate world works it's not easy to bring topics that were taboo topics or topics that we don't discuss in the corporate world or sometimes it feels like we're moving the needle every day a little by little but in the long run the goal is really how do we improve the women's healthcare conditions globally and adjust to some extent our offer also to the needs of local communities that actually empower people. Fatumata shared different options that we have the platform that we actually build to provide services to the users but the end goal at the end of the day is really there is no size fits all solution when it comes to your fertility needs so our goal is to provide tools it's to provide keys maybe the ways to understand problems the way to empower the users but it's really a a dent of the day it's up to a woman her partners to actually see what works for me how do I adjust it how do I actually become more informed when it comes to issues related to my reproductive health care so that's one goal a number one for us like how do we empower people and how do we create awareness around that and then in the second run for those who are actually willing to take action for those who need support to find the better way to use those services in a more informed way so this is for the users and the big other chunk is obviously for companies as well like how do we make sure that companies are well positioned to support their people in navigating their sexual and reproductive health care journeys and for that it's master classes as the studies that we do it's actually a support also for companies to better understand issues related to yes it's not just individual problems it's also thanks related to abstentism at work it's actually difficulties when it comes to return to work after maternal or paternal leaves it's also difficulties in terms of conceiving that also impact the time we spent at work the stress that in place might actually face when it comes to the journey of conceiving so it's the whole package of all we also B2C and B2B at the same time and it's a long journey and yeah you mentioned the journey and around and the the potential challenges around fertility but is there any other topics related to women's health that you also put emphasis on I mean a lot like today obviously when you talk about women's health and need to support our mission is to support women with future assists through their career journey the future given that it's from basically the basic needs and difficulty related to the menstrual cycle the actually chronic conditions they might affect them the conception journey going into parental support postpartum for example and also until parimenopause and menopause today our main focus as I'll go to market to some extent is really conception journey in a way but for example the masterclasses that need to would actually provide and healthcare practitioners that we work with they're actually focused on different aspects of women's health because the same woman that today's and the conception journey tomorrow perhaps will be in the parimenopause of menopause aspects that will also influence her career journey in a slightly in a different way but the impact on the rest of this showing that is quite huge so in a way but if we go back to the fertility and fertility and conception it's already a big chunk of things that we can do why because there are so many chronic conditions that we are not aware of like in the matrices we know statistics it takes 8 to 10 years to actually put a diagnosis of that and that combined with for example a fertility issue it's also a thing where you really need to see okay how do we support people how do we make them understand how to adjust their lifestyle if they're trying to conceive but also perhaps if they don't why because there is no treatment so you actually need to adjust your lifestyle to better perform or to better work to have better work conditions when you go through a chronic conditions like in the matrices then there is also PCOS there are so many other hormonal imbalances that might influence your conception journey in a way yeah as you were describing your mission I couldn't have but notice the similarity between your approach and lazy women's approach because we also say that you know the personal is political so how the two relate and I think in your case it's quite it must be quite sometimes a stark contrast like approaching people in these very corporate settings and talking about it in the context of the workplace and when we think about the workplace we still tend to think of a place where for example sharing your own fertility journey is considered as a taboo or might be even seen as like overstepping a boundary you know whereas it really shouldn't be the case in my opinion and it's still the two kind of atmospheres really have a different feel like the intimate and then the corporate and so like how do you how do you feel about all of that like do you how do you navigate that kind of challenge if there is such a challenge absolutely it's not an easy equation to handle both of the corporate world as well as for employees the reality is some companies share with us but we want them to come like we want people going for fertility issues to come to us to talk to us we are in open minded we have a safe space We offer all these things, but when you look at data and when you look at the scientific lecture out there, we systematically lose women when they become mothers. It's a reality. And there's no country that is kind of like winning on that space. So we remind them that the reality is also that great. You can see all of this, but still when you look at the data, the moment when you lose women, it's usually when they start building those families. So imagine that you lose women when you are embarking on the maternal journey. So imagine sharing about thinking of planning or thinking of having a child. It's like no way I'm not sharing that. Like my career will be, you know, I'll be put aside. And there's data that has been shared in the UK, 18% of women go into fertility issues actually lose their promotion. In France, we have 50% of women going for fertility journeys that do not share their information with their managers and do not use any legal ways that are out there to help them. They will actually use their personal days to go do their medical appointments. So all this share, like it tells you how hard it is, but at the same time, I feel like the time is now. We are in 2024. We talk about women's health everywhere. In many ways, companies are understanding as well that they are losing money by not having more women in the workplace and by not supporting them. It's like, you know, a lot of money for them. So you can't build a thriving economy if you keep supporting your female workplace and workforce. So this is something that I think more companies are being aware of. And there's being more data that is also being shared on the fact that it's just bad for everyone when women don't work. Women want to work if they can't work because of their health and their fertility journey. It's bad for the economy. And this is something that companies are hearing more and more and our work is to make that education. And it's to help them find the right equation between, okay, what can you do? How can you do it? And how do you make sure that you do it in a sensitive matter because these things are sensitive. It's like intimates, right? So you don't just go and rule on someone about their fertility journey and most of this or their PCOS, you need to be very aware and mindful of the way you bring things forward. And this is where need can be of help for many of them. - Yeah, no, I think what you mentioned is extremely important. And as you were kind of explaining the need for a safe space in this whole conversation, I just wanted to share a thought I had about the whole challenge of digital solutions and the obvious question that would come to my mind. As a woman, as someone who menstruates, I tend to use digital solutions to track my period. But then again, there's so much about like how companies kind of use this data or take this data and then they, you know, target my ads. Like if my period is laid and I would immediately receive like ads about pregnancy tests and all of that. So with ninty, like what approach do you take or how do you ensure that the sensitive information that women share on your platform and that's shared with your care counselors or helpers, how do you ensure that data remains safe and in good hands? - Surely. And absolutely, you are raising very important concerns that we have for menstrual health apps that we actually have for any application specifically when it comes to health care. I think it's crucial that the data is properly stored, that it's properly used, that users, whoever is actually accessing the platform know exactly how the possibility to actually verify how my data is stored, which type of data is stored, which type of data is shared in case anything is shared in the future and for what reasons. And in the future, be able also to decide, like for example, if in case it's a health care app, like ninty, for example, in the future, for example, if you want to participate in a study, that you have a possibility to opt in or opt out for different things. So there are many possibilities that have been developed, but what is crucial is really creating that safe space where anyone has the possibility and keys of understanding of how the data is collected for what reason, what it's actually stored. Today, when it comes practically to ninty, we do not share any of our data with any of the third-party providers, unless they are on the platform and actually provide their services through the platform. When we work with companies, basically, we actually have to adjust what we deliver to their own security issues and their own data services that sometimes we actually have to adjust our delivery to their own system. So they don't share the data of their employees participating actually in different sessions and everything is unanimous. So this is just the beginning. Obviously, I think we need to be even more robust and systematic when it comes to us growing and scaling and thinking, what are the best possibilities ever, especially in the world of today, when it comes to, for example, in the future, participating in the research studies, which kind of system we need to develop. So this is what we do today, but we have lots of reflections of how we need to reorganize ourselves in the future in order to collaborate better with others, because today, in terms of protection, we're actually keeping everything internally and everything is anonymized. And maybe just to add to that, anyone who subscribes today to our services, they can decide whether they want to participate in anonymous way or actually whether they want to provide their name. So we don't systematically ask for their names, unless they obviously book a session with the care practitioner there, they would need to share that. So our goal is to provide the choice and maybe the final thoughts on that. We also digital and having a digital solution in the issues related to reproductive healthcare. Journey is one building block of the puzzle. It's not enough in a way. It's also about creating a social systems of support. It's actually, it has to be digital. In a way, it's all about creating links, using technology as a way to connect to people, as a way to interact, as a way to basically deal with those issues together, which today goes through the events and master classes that we organize online. It can also be actually physical. So we need to create a support system that is adjusted to specific places. That's why you, at the beginning of our discussion, you asked me, are you a platform or are you a program? Are you a solution? I was like, we are kind of everything, but the main goal is really how do we integrate the systems shifts in a way we see fertility as a workplace issue. And for that today, it goes through studies, it goes through events and it goes for a solution that we've developed, which is a digital platform that obviously we would like to scale in future, but in a way that will be tailored to the needs of our companies and users as well. - Yeah, that makes a perfect sense. And thank you for providing that kind of broader context and also the whole idea that you can remain to a certain extent anonymous on your platform. I think that's extremely important, actually. And I was just wondering, kind of tying what you're doing to our topic and our focus on immigration and your own journeys in a way. What's particular if anything about women who might not be living in the countries where they grew up and do you see any particular issue in that context? Or yeah, how do you see it? - It's much harder, actually, you know, if you put yourself in the shoes of someone that do a country due to, you know, it can be a variety of reasons. It can be due to work. It can be due to war arriving in France, not speaking the language first and having to navigate the health care system. So it is harder in many ways. And the health care system is not really built in a way to be inclusive. This is a reality. I think it's not based on a lack of will. I think, you know, we talk to doctors every day and they are so keen to help, like the big majority of them, but they don't really have the resources. They don't have time. They barely have time to, you know, like take care in a very proper way of their friends speaking people so imagine if you have the barrier of a language. And this is something that is very important for us and mean to you. I think we haven't really nailed it yet, but it's something that's been at the core is how do we make sure that everything we build is we make sure that it's available to everyone we need to. Which is why we also have this, you know, people are like, why do you do things in English? You are in France, and I think that a big part of it for us is that we know that being in both English and French, we make sure that people who need us at least find us and they won't have this additional barrier to like, not everyone. find support or attend a circle because it's in French or it's in English so it's something we need to work on more it's not easy in many ways it's really hard but I believe that technology is not a solution it's like a tool but I believe that with other the tools and digital solutions that are you know coming in terms of translation there are things that we will be able to lean on in order to make mean to better when it comes to making sure that no one is left apart but like I mean we can hide it Europe is healthcare system everywhere in the world is really damaged and Europe is not an exception and France is not an exception either but coming years I think will be really hard for healthcare in general and it's a reality that we need to be aware of you elaborate that on that a bit more like what do you mean that the healthcare system is damaged I mean we don't have enough doctors when it comes if we just take fertility in France which is a privileged country right if you go for fertility treatment in France in the public healthcare system it's two years the waiting line to actually be able to between the moment you are taken like you know you're doing all your diagnosis and between the moment you actually do your idea it's an average of two years and it's France you know so if you're like 35 you're kind of or 37 or 40 you can be in a really tough situation so people who have the money and the privilege to travel go to Spain and other countries will do it and those who don't will have to wait and if they are running out of time they still have to wait they can't change it because they don't have the money to travel and go to a private clinic in Spain or somewhere else and this is the reality of healthcare and this is just fertility but if you expand it to cardiology like to so many other conditions it's the same like we are we are I think in France we are actually running a new legislation to be able to bring doctors from abroad which are making other countries unhappy because they're like we have been training them and we need them as well so there's a set of fight for talents for doctors and nurses and midwives you know and we will need to fix that all of us together for sure yeah no I I think it's really important to go beyond you know like the headlines and and to talk about the issues that persist because especially related to France and you know someone coming from Eastern Europe you can can have this kind of idea of France is perfect and you know things work here and just very recently as we talk you know the right to abortion became a constitutional right in France so there's definitely reasons to hope and and and definitely there's a lot of progress but it's true that there are structural issues that remain the same and especially once you bring in the the work context and that kind of inequality that's there and that I feel like no one really wants to touch that aspect it's like easier to still deal with it on a separate level and okay like you know you go to the doctor no you don't really talk about it and you keep it like fully separated from community or even just sharing experiences so so yeah it's it's super interesting to hear your insights and expertise on on those issues all guys there anything you want to add related to the kind of immigration and also the European situation related to women's health sure I mean just to to basically relate to everything that you both just said as well they we definitely see improvements like as you just mentioned abortion becomes the right and the constitution also see the steps back or it's with menstrual leave not being accepted in France as well what I think is important when it comes to immigration and I can fully relate to things that it's hard especially when you're navigating across different health care systems myself with I was diagnosed for example with endometriosis in France and then how to follow the journey in Australia and then going backwards it's like you can really see how different health care systems work differently and the lack of trust that exist also across different systems that actually impact the individuals and food or responsibility at the end on the individual to actually manage the whole system at the end of the day so what where I'm going with all of that is we definitely agree with a tool with our approaches the willingness when we started we were like okay we need to help and also adjusting to so people from different backgrounds can actually relate to what we do there is still a long way to to go on that perspective but already having a second opinion this is valuable like how can we have a second opinion on the diagnosis made somewhere else where to find those doctors so I think that's one step forward and the more important one as well we have patient experts as because we have to navigate through so many conditions ourselves to inform ourselves so many around you and you don't even need to go to need to but just talk and ask people around yourself will be already very knowledgeable in things that you might be asking yourself so liberating the word around those issues actually create a connections between people help us to understand and better relate to each other create collectives where we can discuss those different things we have for example with Nintia organized circles around different things where people come and they can actually share they ask questions around different conditions but also supporting that for example just an anecdote when we started Nintia we talked to around hundred people with for two all around the world to actually ask okay what's happening and what was interesting I was also talking to people in my own entourage and you I realized how many people go for different challenges in their reproductive healthcare journey for silly to men opposed different conditions but they don't talk about that so things that my friends for example shared with me or people in my network were so surprising because we never talked about that before we actually put that we are working on a subject related to women's health so I think it's important to liberate the world in order to change the way these things are considered by their organizational work by the corporate world by the government it's also us to take a stance if we are comfortable we don't need to push anyone to actually share to ask how everyone is doing if they actually need any help or any support around you especially if they have a little kid or a struggling proposed part of trying to navigate for the fertility journey so I think that would be a little step that we can all do in terms of supporting women in general from our background immigrants here but also in general as well yeah no that's all like oh I'm just kind of like bursting with like I don't know inspiration I feel and I could like ask so many other questions and I have so many follow ups to make because I think besides kind of liberating the world it's also empowering right like it's empowering to know what you're like what you're going through and you know someone who might not come from a medical background and even if you do but you might be specialized in something very different like it's also giving power back to women in a way or back to anyone who's struggling with reproductive issues and and the challenges related to that and I think it's an incredibly important mission so yeah I'm really excited to see how ninti grows and develops and tackles more and more challenges because I'm sure like you know as you continue you will you will continue discovering like the depths of the of the issues and and how far can you go with like you know for example can you extend it to to men as well can you extend this liberation and knowledge by empowering those who are supporting women and also who might be going through their own challenges related to these topics so so yeah I I'm really grateful for this conversation and I think there's plenty of topics to discuss further perhaps in our community discussion coming up later in the month so is there any kind of final take away final thought you want to add to our discussion thank you first of all should be for creating the platform to have this conversation and these are important conversations and I think that we underestimate how important they are we can't always talk about everything because of intimacy that is connected to it and because of all the things that we put around it the emotion the shame the fear the anger but I do deeply feel and and believe that part of healing starts with sharing so if we can keep sharing and everyone listens to this podcast and keep sharing. and to find the message, the more we do it, the more it works. So keep sharing, thank you for your work. And ask people around you how they feel because that's important and sometimes we take things for granted. But actually asking whether people navigate through anything, whether they need any help, I think it already changes things. So yeah, I would definitely conclude with that on that note. Perfect note. It is the perfect note. Thank you so much, folks, for being on this podcast. Funded by the European Union. Views and opinions expressed are high for those of the authors only and do not necessarily reflect those of the European Union or the directorate general of communications networks, content and technology. Neither the European Union nor the grounding of authority can be held responsible for them.