"Exit Interview (The Cathartic Episode)" (w/ Matt & Bowen)

This is an "I Heart" podcast. Guaranteed Human Your body is always giving you signals. Woop helps you understand them. Woop is the wearable health and fitness coach that provides personalized insights until your sleep, recovery, strain, and overall help to help you make better decisions every day. Whether you're training, working, traveling, or just trying to fill your best, Woop shows you what helps your performance and what might be holding you back. Listen to your body, build better habits, see where Woop can take you. Try Woop free for 30 days at Woop.com. It's all just a joke. What is the value of these women? I'm Bridget Armstrong, back with season two of the podcast, Curse of Miss America. We're talking to participants, whistleblowers, and people who say Miss America didn't live up to their promises. He looks and he goes, "You don't look like you suffered in the eating disorder." I never received scholarship. I need to pay for my student loans. Maybe this is the meta question for the podcast. What is Miss America at this point? Listen to the Curse of Miss America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. There are thousands of podcasts that can tell you how to better yourself. Get worse with Kyle Pru is not one of those podcasts. So if you're interested in getting thinner, going to therapy, starting peptide, setting boundaries, taking supplements, making you better getting closer, then I would humbly recommend other podcasts. If you're interested in Blackmail, Love, Bomb, and Cloning yourself are getting revenge, then we've got a little something-something for a dastardly individual like you. Listen to Get Worse with Kyle Pru on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. - I'm Hamza. - And I'm Martin. - And we're the hosts of Out of Character, the best podcast in the world, is what they said. - Wait, they said that? - Yeah, yeah, they said that. The best podcast would two best friends who jabber and talk about topical, trendy, funny stuff, give our input on it. That's what you've needed. I think up until now, listener. Listen to Out of Character on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. See, sometimes I just feel like a burden. - You're a bird. You fly. - You're a man. - When we are. - Out of Character Podcast. - Dude, who may I stop the clip? (upbeat music) - Look, man. Oh, oh, I see, am I all right? - Oh, look over there. - Wow, it's not a culture, yes, isn't it? - Yeah. - Love's culturedistas. - Ding dong, love's culturedistas calling. - Much has changed. - Look at our environment. - Look at the environment. Y'all, I think we are going to cozy up here, down here on the, I'm gonna call it the Malala room. - Yeah, okay. So we, remember the time when Malala kicked us out of our normal studio. - That was the best thing to ever happen. Give Malala more prizes and accolades for this impact she's had. She continues, Malala, come on the show. - Honestly at the point. - In 2026. - No, she's coming. - Yeah, we're gonna do a kickball episode. - I do think now we have to have her. Oh my God, a kickball episode. - We should have a sports, something where, or just like live from the court. - What do I call a kickball? - What do you call it? A kickball diamond? - Kickball diamond? - Yeah. - This is really where we falter in terms of expertise. - We host a damn sports podcast somehow. - Imagine that. - Imagine that. - I'm having a great time. - If you don't know now, you know, two guys' five rings, which we can confirm for the millionth time is the name of the podcast and no one stopped us. - And they can't now. - And premiered. - I love that on Today's show this week, you had Ms. Jennifer Sheger kind of giggling to herself, 'cause I was like, of course she knows. - Oh, she knew. - She was knocking back the Captain Morgan in college watching that video. - Let me, remember the Billie Eidle song Rebel Yell? - You think that, that applies to-- - That was a Billie Eige. - That was a Billie Eige. - That was Jennifer Sheger. - I fucking love her. - I am obsessed with her. - I love her. I'm having the best time. But really, I really, I was, I was saying, I don't really have much to promote, but then I was like, oh wait, yes, I do. Our full-bone two guys, five rings. - Oh, yes, yes. - So I was like, oh yeah, of course I'll go back. And I'm the last friend. - That's, that says a lot. - And so I made a whole joke about how that meant I was second place. - But by the way, I just do wanna say, I knew the entire time I wasn't getting that job. I did not want that job. Just to talk about employment status, my employment status at NBC. - A world-class employment. - And then we'll get to him. - No. - But I was like-- - We're both still employed. - Everyone was like, ah, like were you disappointed? - I was like, ah, no, I don't, I wouldn't want that schedule. B, Chanel Jones should have the job. - The legends. - And I, I will say, I knew the whole time I wasn't actually getting it. - Right. - But I did like that everyone thought I was a contender. I liked being in that conversation, it was fun. - You liked being in the mix, as they say. - And just how perfect is it that you got to work in morning television? - Ultimately, at the end of this week, I've hosted it 20 times. - Wow. - Yeah. - They got to get you a smoking jacket for that. - I truly, I guess that I would have four SNL jackets at this point. - Yes. - 100%. - And just to speak on SNL, what is that? - I don't, I'm not sure. - Have you already forgotten? - No. Of course not. - I am. So if you've been living under it, they are not even a rock, a boulder. - A big rock. - You may not know that Bowen Yang, my sister here, my co-host, my bestie has decided to. - Suddenly a depart. - Shockingly suddenly depart. - This is after seven and a half years, the shocking departure. - So sudden, so. - Now, this is the thing. This is honestly what's behind it. It's like, it's time. Like you would do seven seasons and then you would scoot. And then like COVID and the current media landscape, the current entertainment ecosystem is so turbulent that people have completely valid reasons for staying longer or in a lot of cases, don't have the privilege of staying as long as they would like to. I have this very beautiful thing where I get to say that I stayed on exactly as long as I wanted to. Maybe, I'm sure and I've said this before, I was maybe unsure about going back in the summer and I'm so glad I did. When did you make, I could feel like a time. - Oh my god Barbara, that was the part where I ask a lot of questions that I know the answer is to. But I mean, I've been really waiting to do this episode with you and I've also been waiting to do an episode with just you and I know a lot of people out there have been wanting us to as well. And it's not because we don't want to guys. It's whenever we're not together, just us. It's just because logistically, we could not do it. And we feel like if we're gonna do a culture catchup episode, it should be a culture catchup episode. And so that's what it is. And the podcast is many different things and will continue to be many different things. And we hope it surprises you week to week. But I've been waiting for this because I'm excited to hear how you're feeling. How are you feeling? - I feel so good. I also want to point out the tea is, like you're saying, like you know the-- - Let's say the tea. - You already know the answers to these questions you're about to ask, but also I don't think even I have really talked about this. It's not really, I wasn't able to be there, which hurt my heart, but-- - Really bumpy. - I was there the last time I thought it was the last show. - Exactly, exactly, and I was there in spirit sobbing, laying on my back in my Orlando hotel because I couldn't believe just how perfectly it was ending. - Like that is, it's like landing the Mars rover on like a square foot of terrain. It was like, there were no guarantees about how any of it was gonna shake out. Like I went in-- - Yeah, lots of unruly factors. - Totally, like working there is just making peace with the fact that like things are completely out of your control, down to like the audience response to a joke. - Yeah. - You know, like that is, I think that, and like I think having that and like going into it, like down to like 12.55 a.m. Not being sure if that sketch was gonna go to air, I was like, there's a million reasons why I could get cut. Nothing is guaranteed. Like that is sort of in a nutshell. Like it kind of is perfectly like illustrative of what that job is and it like was resonant all the way through to the end. And I feel really this word is meaningless, I think maybe now, but like so grateful. - I don't think that word is meaningless at all because I think that there probably were so many times during that experience where you didn't know if you were going to be able to end the experience of working there with gratitude. So many different people have many different kinds of experiences leaving that job. - Yeah, like you come in and there is like a shared experience of being at SNL, but then ultimately it comes down to like, there's like a collectivism there, but there's an individualism in terms of like everyone is on their own journey there. - Yeah. - Everyone has a different like length of their tenure, completely different struggles. It is like what the experience of living is, which is like it is suffering to the point of having to like arrive at a nihilism and then you create your own meeting from there. That is what that job is. Of course the Polkot is going to be like, "Bowenian calls SNL suffering." Like, but it is-- - I actually think this year I give so much less of a thought about what the Polkot-- - Yeah, yeah, totally. - And we were texting last night we, I'm just so excited about the future of the podcast now. I really am. - Yeah. - Not that I don't think that this is going to change it necessarily in terms of you not being there. I just mean like, I don't know. I think after everything, like after this whole year, like looking back and looking forward, it's like this is the thing that's so been so consistent for us and it's the thing that I want to honor bring honesty to and like, yes, authentic. to and my number one main focus. And I think that because of the past seven and a half years, like your energy being, you know, primarily focused there. Now what's so exciting to me for you is even what you said the other day about how you were like, you know, what's crazy? I don't have to tell someone I'm unavailable just because they want to do something in the fall. Like I don't have to say, oh, my October is booked out. You know what I mean? Right. You actually have like freedom now to put energy into whatever it is that you want. It's harder to get out of an unwanted plan. Right. That is. That's true. True. Yeah. But no, you're right. And I also want to acknowledge and honor the fact that like this is this was like a joint tandem experience for us. Because like the show gave us a lot. The show meaning SNL. SNL. We like went through it together. And like I think in a very like evident way, we were it was like one of us was on the show, but I think we were both like living with it. Yeah. I mean like we obviously I did not experience work in there. But like I I always felt like it was a part of my life because of its omnipresence. Yeah, yeah. And not just yours, but also Soudi's also so many people. And so I think that what I've always been looking forward to for you is just more autonomy. Yes. And but just to speak again about the experience of that interviewer energy being directed at me. But when Yang is the guest on this week's podcast. But in terms of like you said, you're feeling really good. And that you're grateful that it all ends it up the way it ends it up. How do you think you'll feel when the first episode of the new season comes up? Well, we're going to be in Japan. Busy by. Busy by. Pakistan's are on purpose. Not I think both. Yeah. I think this is like so basically what's happening for me for both of us is that we're kind of like firehosing new sensory experiences towards us. Like we're going to be like eating food. Yeah. Going like like listening to sounds, touching things. Like what touching things? What? And just we're just I don't think we were going to go to a petting zoo. And I had my head around that. It's sometimes hard for me to think about touching animals. You know, this we're going to the the Nintendo museum. Oh, that's you. We're going to the Ghibli museum hot ticket. We are we're we're going to be touching things. So I think it's just funny because I feel like I I I summed I'm like trying to redirect it back to the show. Yes, it's okay. But no, but like I guess it's exciting that you feel excited about other things because I didn't know how you were going to feel after it ended. Because it does warp you a little bit. Like I can give that take now that you're not there. Absolutely. There were times where I would come to the show. And you would be there. And I was like, what happened to you? The energy could alternately be so high and unbelievable. And the best energy you could ever experience or through the floor to the point where I'm like, why are we even doing this? I well, you know what Matt Whitaker, so our friend Matt Whitaker said to me, he was like by the end, it seemed like even if you had like a light show or like a bad week, like you just on Saturdays, like it didn't stick to you. Like you kind of showed up. You were like, okay, here's the rundown. Let's go out to music. Like when the sketch goes up, I had like, and this is an indicator for me that like, oh wow, like this is this is so beautifully sort of wrote to me that like that comfort is like not necessarily the point of being here. Like there is such a beautiful crucible of that show. And now that like I'm done with it, now that I'm through the gauntlet of it, I'm like, that is one of the most meaningful experiences I will ever have. I can't believe I got the thing that happened during the last sketch, the one time sketch was I look out. And I was like, I don't know, I don't know if like emotionally this is going to be like necessarily the resonant thing because what happens according to some alarms that I've talked to, including Eddie Bryant, she was like, oh, like I cried more on Wednesday at the read through than I did on Saturday. And I was like, oh, interesting. Like now I was sobbing at the read through at the read through in front of everyone. And like, why do you think here's why in the sketch, I say, you know, it's like a metatextual thing. It's like, oh, it's my last shift at the Delta Lounge. But in the sketch, I say, I've loved everyone here. I've loved every single person who works here. Like I immediately broke down because I was, um, do you know it was a lie? Well, yeah, I was going to say because I was, because I was like, because I was telling the truth. Sure. No, I'm kidding. I'm being a bitch. Of course, of course. And there's like, even the struggles with people there, which anyone would have with any, any colleague they have, but of course they're in the most heightened experience atmosphere. Like those are going to be hot and cold relationships to say the least, but those are so valuable. 100%. I've learned how to work under what seems like an immense amount of pressure, which it kind of isn't. But it's like, I've learned so many things that have applied to so many other things. I always said like the credits don't transfer. I would always like go into like press stuff for the show and be like, oh, you know, it's so fun. Like I love that job. But it's, but you know, the process is so singular there. You have an idea on Tuesday and it could be on TV by Saturday. It doesn't work like that anywhere else. But it's a dream factory. I don't have to memorize lines. I just read off the queue card. I pitched the rafters. I say the credits don't transfer. Like this isn't how it works anywhere else in my business. But yet, culture words is a perfect example. I was like, oh, I think this benefited both of us that like I had an understanding of like what to do, how to do it, how to work with someone like Liz Patrick. Yeah, who's the director of us and who directed the culture words? I was like, that was kind of like the veneer cracking on like that idea for me. Anyway, I cried on Wednesday at the read through because I was telling the truth. And because there are no other occasions for someone to say that at that place. Because we have to just like be like funny and ironic. And there's a refraction of like what's being said and how it should be received. And like I will absolutely cop to the fact that that Delta one sketch was like completely self indulgent because like what am I going to do? Like that's fine. Tell us straight, like give us straight joke bag. Well, for a second, I thought that you're because it did weirdly feel like you for the 80 trend forecasters weekend update piece to be the last thing because that was 80's last thing. And I think that that also speak the fact that that was 80's last thing. And she was on the show for 10 years. And she wasn't necessarily, she was not given that type of platform like you were given. And we should say very, very, very few people have been given that. Yes. I think it's like actually quite rare. And so I guess my question is as it's going. And you know what that's what that's felt like at the read through and everything like that. And it's getting to be like, it's, you know, it's 1251 52. Did you think there was a possibility that it would not happen because in a way you had that moment. And therefore like you you've been in the costume before when things are cut literally I've been in the costume and things are cut. It is completely devastating because you are just like emotionally on edge. You're gearing up for something. Literally, you're in the gear for something. And then like it gets taken away from you. I want to say that like because of the Wednesday thing and just like going into that week at all, I was already like blessed by the fact that it was Ari as the host. Share as the musical guest. Yeah. My whole thing was how are you supposed to stay after that? You could never have gone back up to that. I thought after the 50th it could never. I was like, I didn't understand why you were coming back this season. Like just to be candid because I was like, it's after the 50th, you know what I mean? Like it felt like other people were going to leave. And then you went back. And now it's like, I'm so grateful you went back. I'm so grateful I went back and like as the night's going on, like, I was completely sent about it. Either way was okay. Either way was okay. Because 80 was there. There was just I'm sorry. There was like an outpouring. Yeah. People that I hadn't heard from and people that like I I'm sorry. I just felt like a really beautiful thing where what it was saying earlier, like as I get on the floor, like I look out, it was like basically like everyone who worked there. The floor showing up. And I just looked out and I thought I'm so lucky that I ever got to work here. And I'm so lucky that I get to make this like little statement that's like barely veiled where I'm like, I love you. love you all. Like it was, um, I'm so lucky. Yeah. And it's not really like a place where I'm like you said, like where emotions get laid bare like that. I feel like people may remember highlights of the show where it feels like that might be the case. But you working their day in and day out year after year, you know, yeah, it's not some place where it's like, you're necessarily like free to be like, Hey, this is how I'm feeling and I'm expressing it exactly responsibly, etc. And so that was a question I had for you is, how do you think you've emotionally grown as a result of being on that show and the experiences that you've had doing it? I feel like I've been accelerated in terms of what, you know, how like a president, the age is you like, yes, 12 years or whatever in one term, like I feel like completely, I don't know, either I'm like ripened or I'm like rotten. Yeah. I've experienced the full spectrum of things because you're right. Like working there is completely disregulating emotionally. Like either you are soaring or you are like completely in the dumps. Um, and that's just how like it's like them's the breaks, kid. It's like that, it's like a show busy blow hard. I'm not saying this is anyone in particular, but it's just like it's just like you are constantly reminded by someone or something or some event where you're like, God, this is just, this is just how it is. This is how it is. And every week you get like a condensed version of like a developmental process on a project, let's say, and Jesse David Fox writes about this like all three words in SNL Saturday Night Live are about time. And it is just time sort of like encroaching on you emotionally, physically, um, process wise creatively. Like it is all those things bearing down on you. And then if you have the time to figure out how to like deal with all of that, then you will be, um, so well equipped for everything else. Yeah. And that doesn't matter if you're on the cast, if you're a writer, if you're in the wardrobe department, if you're in any other place at that show, like it is, wow, every department there is a convocation of the most amazing people with this workman like attitude about showing up and doing the job and not having an ego about it. And then of course, there are moments where you have an ego about it. It is like a collective thing. And like, I guess there was like some perception that like I felt like exceptional in any way. I really did it. Anytime I got like some shine on me, my genuine instinct was always to make it about everyone who works there. I mean, I do notice that about you. And that's why I was so happy that that moment happened at the end of the show because like I said, I was like, oh wow, it would be very like him for this thing with 80 to be enough for him. But I was really happy that you got more than that because I do think, I mean, you've done it several times today. You've made your experience and you've mentioned you trying to bring me into it. I ain't got nothing to do with this. You do. You have, you experienced like all of this stuff in a way. And I one thing I want to say is that not everyone leaves that show and is like ready to positively impact the workforce creatively. I can tell you that. Sure. And so the fact that you are leaving intact emotionally, creatively and like in terms of your humanity is like, you know, it's a feat. There was no there was no other way. I'm going to say like, it's that Seth Meyers thing where he's like, yeah, or no Mike Shoemaker told Seth, you're gonna be talking about this for the rest of your life. Like congrats like when you got the job. It's like congratulations. You're going to be talking about this for the rest of your life. Yeah. That is true. Um, for me, I will try to keep it at like a reasonable volume. I am like, oh God. Sorry. These these thoughts are just coming at me. No, of course. Polar Amy before she left the after party. Uh, when she hosted the second episode this season, puts a hand in my shoulder, looks into my eyes and goes, we're all waiting for you on the other side. And I was like, yeah, that's so much. It's like, this is crazy. And then that was a good reminder of like, oh my God, I work here. And like, this is like, and there's another side. And there's another side. And like, I just feel like I've died. And like, there's like, one of my heroes is like looking down at me and like telling me like, and even like 80s, been like, there's a really nice life waiting for you after this. Um, you'll miss it every day. Kristen wig. This should text you. Of course she'll be here in a couple weeks. She'll be here in a couple weeks. But of course, she texted me and then I texted her back. I was like, Kristen, like, I will never forget like the first time you hosted when I was here. Like the thing you told me was, enjoy it because it's the funest job in the world. I remember when she said that to you. I never forgot. You know, we were talking, when we were shooting Pound Royale, we were talking about this. And I remember like, saying her like because she too also got like a send off like that. And I remember I not to share too much about what we talked about. But I was kind of, I was kind of in my mind. I was like your best friend and also as someone who watches the show and enjoys the show and the legacy of the show and felt you deserved it. I was like, how do we make it so that he gets like a good, nice moment? And like, I think, I think that ultimately in terms of the totality of what it could have been, it probably was like beyond your wildest dreams. I guess my question is with that, like, does Ariana become de facto your favorite host of all time? Yeah. There's no other answer. I'm sure it shares my cakey Palmer. You read for a while. Sorry, Regina King. I loved how unselfish the whole thing was. Like, because it takes so much confidence and like so much star quality to come in there like her fourth time hosting and knowing, you felt on her in her in her energy, the being there with you that a her number one goal was servicing that sketch which meant honoring like what was happening for you in it. And she was so there right next to you. But be the like positivity she had that she's going to come back and do that show many, many other times because not every host would be like, yeah, let me give up the whole last sketch of this six minutes of the time for this cast member. But it was her and she did that. And that's not only because she's a good friend. It's because she's a really professional host who doesn't have like an ego about her time, man, which I think is like pretty cool and worth calling out. And the fact that she did not have to walk her ass out there. No. Your body is always giving you signals. Woop is the wearable help and fitness coach that provides personalized insights until your sleep, recovery, strain and overall help to help you make better decisions every day, whether you're training, working, traveling or just trying to fill your best. Woop shows you what helps your performance and what might be holding you back. Listen to your body. Build better habits. See where Woop can take you. For more than a century, Miss America sold the country a fantasy. Well, are you ready, ladies? Okay, here we go. But over the past decade, the crown's been slipping. They said goodbye to swimsuits now. Hello to lawsuits. I'm Bridget Armstrong. Last season, we took you inside the world of America's next top model. Now I'm back with season two of this podcast, Curse of Miss America, investigating the rise, fall in uncertain future of one of America's most iconic institutions. The Miss America pageant. I never received scholarship. He looks and he goes, "You don't look like you suffered in the eating disorder." It's great, but looks too ethnic. It's a story the Miss America organization really doesn't want us to tell. An exploitation of our Miss Americas is treated by the Miss America organization as an attack on Miss America itself. I'm Hamza and I'm Martin and we're the hosts of Out of Character. It's a podcast. I know there's a lot of them to listen to these days. How are you gonna get to us? Well, there's a specific reason why you should listen to us. We are the best podcast in the entire world. I swear. I know, bold, but why don't we list some of the things we might talk about on a regular episode? So sometimes we'll talk about, I don't know, the Uber driver we just had. And how nice they were, or if we tip them or not, come and find out. Sometimes we'll talk about that weird new story from last week. It's the one you're thinking about. Trust me. Or maybe we'll talk about music and what's happening in the underground or drama and music or TV shows or the Med Gala and what the actors wore. What we're saying is we're not afraid to talk about everything under the sun. And if you want to see what that's like, come join us. It's a place where everyone can hang out, anyone, wherever you're from, whatever you're like, you're welcome. Listen out of character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Pods, or wherever you get your podcasts. Get worse with Kyle Prue is not one of those podcasts. So if you're interested in getting thinner, going to therapy, starting peptide, setting boundaries, taking supplements, making you better getting closure, then I would humbly recommend other podcasts. But if you're interested in Blackmail, love bomb and cloning yourself for getting revenge. Then we've got a little something-something for a dastardly individual like you. Take a listen to some of the incredible advice we've given so far. Fake a back injury. Get the spray tan, up your alcohol consumption. Only women should be allowed to have guns. Kill them. Kill them. Kill them with a gun. Listen, it's already over. I'm all about lying if it's something that really happened. The next time a bear is running at you, you just calmly stop what you're doing. You look the bear in the eye and you say this isn't you. Do not preserve relationships. You don't need them. You only need one thing and that's the get worse podcast. Listen to get worse with Kyle Pru on the iHarm Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, and the share thing. Okay, I'll get to the share thing. I want to say in terms of the sketch itself, like my only wish is that like we could gotten like a bunch of other cast in there, ideally the entire cast in there because it is just like me just like, I don't know, not imparting anything, but it's just like, I want to be there with like the other people, it did just come down to logistics. Like we did. We had like Mikey and Sarah there in the back just like cleaning up the mess. Oh, and so like the Agnog machine was supposed to like be on the fritz and like spray everywhere. It was supposed to spray Keenan. It was supposed to spray Jane. It was supposed to spray the people who was spraying. It just kind of got too much. We got to be too much and Lauren came up to me and Celeste before before the show after dress and he was just like, I think it's better if it's just you guys and you just play into the emotion of it. He was right. And then Celeste and I were like, Lauren Michaels knows how to produce. So Celeste came back to write that. Celeste came back to write that. We wrote some other stuff too. We wrote a share family reunion, which I'm so sad. Oh, this is a thing. Well, we'll get to share later. This is a thing. We're still getting shit cut at the end. Of course. It's totally, totally fine. They were not like, well, you can have this, but you can't have everything. I never, look, and I'm always like, yeah, yeah, yeah, cut, like cut my stuff. Like Keenan still has his stuff cut. Yeah. It's not a thing. You don't, I don't necessarily think you don't get a platinum card at the show. No, and my other thing was like, there was like a soft thing maybe where like I would get like, there was a designated like, I was talking to dysmiops about this and James Austin Johnson about this like, it did feel like I would get like, there would be like a designated Bowen spot in the list list of picks on Wednesday. And like, that's also my cue to leave. I do not want the footprint to be edging out other people literally. I'm honest to God. That's really noble. That was it. It's everyone has that. I was just like, no, no, no, no, that can't be it. Yeah. You know when it's time to go. Right. I'm like, this is this is a slip that you tailor swift that legend. So anyway, now the Aristotle documentary, can you imagine yes, I can, I can wait, wait, wait, wait. So many other things wait. Oh, yes. I wish there were other, there were other cast in that piece we did just have to like, if there had to be one, if there had to be no stop. Keenan. He was like, Oh my God. Keenan. I was so happy. They did that. Come on. So I mean, yeah, everybody and like, I don't know, man. That is a really, I can't believe I got to work there and I sat in the sketch. That is the thing that I will like keep saying like I, I can't, it feels like it happened to someone else. I'm so glad it happened to me. I am going to pull you into this experience because I got to tell Jenna Rosatana, the stage manager there, one of the many wonderful stage managers there. She's an icon. She's an icon, but I, she kind of cried the hardest out of anybody besides Ari. I was like, Jenna, you, we'll see. But first of all, she said something that like destroyed me, which was, and this is not me like bragging. She just goes, I never, she goes, she goes to me. She's seen a lot of behavior on that floor. She's like, I've never seen you raise your voice or be unkind to anyone in the seven years that you were here, which like, it means a lot to me. Yeah. It means a lot to me. Well, that's why everyone hit the floor when you, when you were leaving, but I told her I was like, Jenna, from the very first time I met you, you were just so kind to me, because I came down to the hallway outside of the studio, just like, right by cue cards, because you could kind of hear what's going on on stage. I was like, I came down to the floor to listen to your screen test, because I was, I just wanted to, I just wanted to like, be close and just like, I don't know, send energy or something. And then she was there and she was like, are you lost? And I was like, no, no, I just, my best friend in the whole world is on stage right now. And I just want to see how he's doing. And then she, she completely breaks down, she was like, that's your best friend up there. Well, then stay as long as you want. And just she, I see her as like a bridge, I don't know, like, I always think of you when I'm with her. And I always think about how kind she was to me and how she loves you. I know. She loves you. We will go. We will go back. She wants to get done in March. It's a piano. Oh, it's fucking girl. Make lasagna for us. Oh, my God. That's fucking awesome. She's, she's amazing. Jenna Rossi Tano. Jenna Rossi Tano. It's time. Watch it. Don't get ripped and watch in the sopranos. She's the fucking bad. Everybody. Oh, God. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm a mess. I mean, no. I mean, like, it is, it is such a crazy thing in totality. Like, there have been so many moments where I'm watching it, and I'm like, I can't believe this is happening. I can't believe this is happening. And then at some point that transition to like me, like, completely just like marinating in this experience and then like it of watching you do this show. And then it ended in that moment. And I was like, I was like, I was like alone watching it, which felt so crazy. Of course. Of course, all of our friends are texting me from the your dressing room and like they're all there. And I could like smell it and feel like I feel how hot it was in the room. Like and I was just like, God, like it really is. But it didn't feel it felt conclusive. It did not feel final. Oh, interesting. Like, it felt like it was like a wonderful way for this to conclude this chapter, but it didn't feel like you'll be back on that show hosting, like, you know what I mean? And I think it's so great that you get to have this great relationship with the show and everyone that works there. And yeah, I mean, just for it to end that wonderfully, I think gives all the validity to what Jenna is saying. It would not have been that way. Had you not done it like a pro, like a kind person and like a talent, like the talent that you are. So I take my hat and all my clothes off to you. Oh, I'm naked. If you can't see, I'm completely nude. I've been completely nude doing this interview, this exit interview, title of app with Bowen. Is there anything else you want to say about it before we talk about heated rivalry or whatever the fuck? Yes. I need to just point out the share element of it, which was we weren't sure if she was going to do it down to like Saturday. Yeah. Because it was like, we wrote a bunch of different versions of it. And she, you know, she just wanted spare dialogue because it's like, she will tell you, she's a dyslexic icon. Yes. Oh, my God. Wait. We also haven't talked about her memoir, which whatever. Well, we will. Stephanie Jay Block doing the, it trades off to share and Stephanie Jay Block doing the reading together. You're going to notice that someone besides me is on the, is on the audio book and it's the wonderful Stephanie Jay Block who played me in the share show or whatever. By the way, okay. That's what a gig to score for Stephanie Jay Block. Yeah. Yeah. Such a gig. We were to share a family reunion. It did not get me. It did not to go, but I, but Celeste and I had the perfect experience of running around on Wednesday to all the cast's offices because they're like, I don't have a share. I'm like, ah, straight people don't have a share. Gay guys do. Yeah. Every gay guy has a share. Like every gay guy has the same share. Oh, you know, like they kind of understood what that was. Snap out of it. I had to tell them, I had to tell them that snap out of it, but it's like I, I did a teach Ashley Padilla. You had to tell people about snap out of it. It was beautiful. Oh, no, I didn't have to tell them that snap out of it that people just don't know the culture anymore. But people just don't know the culture. And this is not a non. This is not just to, to like, um, evaluate anything about shares legacy or cultural impact. It's just that like, it's a gay guy thing to like have share in their bones. Mm-hmm. Anyway, um, we weren't sure if she was going to do it. Then Saturday she, uh, confirms we're so excited. And then she, uh, you know, was she was always going to be the boss. But then like, we wrote, we wrote her like a, like some zingy, like, roasty lines. Like, the original line was something along the lines of like, I was like, do you have any feedback for me? And she would say something like, you know, even for me, you were a little bit too gay or something like that. And she was like, I want to, I don't, she was like, I want to be kind. She was like, can I just say, like, you were perfect. Mm-hmm. And I'll, she was like, I just want, I just want to kiss um, yeah, or something. And then like, and then we had to, we'd go and like, pitch to her that she would maybe sing. If we would love her, if she sang with us at the end, yeah. And because that was a question mark two, and then we go down, I, I go to her dressing room. Oh, man. And I was like, so it's, please come up for Christmas by the Eagles and Charles Brown and youth car. it and I loved her cover of it on the album. She was like, "Okay, but what part do you want me to sing?" And I was like, "It's just gonna be the end." So, do you want to run it? And I was like, "Oh my God." I was like, "There'll be no more sorrow, not your grief and pain." And then, as far away from me as this microphone is, she's like, "It is close to me." And then with the full force of share. My God. She goes, "No, we have it! Please!" That's a, I wasn't like that. She did not crap, but she just gave me full, full force share, directed at, and I was like, it felt like a card crashed into me. I was, yeah, I'm like, I can't believe, I can't believe. Every second of that. She did that. Yeah. Anyway, that's all I have to say. Let's talk heated rivalry. He is end of the conversation. Everybody, even though this was my interview. Oh, well, anything else you want to ask? You've been so Thursday. Really, I do know all of it. Like I said, you can't shock me with anything. Yeah. I don't know. Is there anything else? I mean, not really, I guess. What's next for you? Oh, what is next for you? Wait. What's next? Do you, should we say anything? Wonderful things. Well, I love this, like, press run of like Bowen's first major project, Post-SNL is two guys five. Oh, I love it. It's not that I'm not honored to have that technically be the first project post-SNL. It's like, let's not. Yeah, the Olympics podcast we're doing. I mean, we are going to Milan. We actually, we have a very fun next few months. Yes. So it's funny, because like, we do have to, we have to execute this movie. Yes. We have to write our book. Yes. We got to get the new culture awards together. That's going to be very fun. We have to, we have some other things that have not hit the trades. But there's, there's a long list of things. And so that's another thing, as I was like, to be honest with you, it like really wasn't tenable for you to keep working on the show because we're going to be in debt soon to these people. Yes. Which is so exciting. I think it's like, there is, it's not even like, what's the next act? It's like, there is a next act just to wait. Like, it's like, you don't have to decide or anything. If you added things to our and your plate, that would be great. But you don't even need to bitch. And so, and I just want to make sure that you know that the pace at which you've been going in the workload that you've had has been abnormal. And so it's going to feel a little bit like less. And I just, I feel like as someone who, it's really interesting because like, I have had this whole other like career outside of like what you've had. Like, I feel like you got to develop for such a, for seven and a half years at this show and like, everything. And my resume is like a little bit different. Like, for me, it's like a ton of other things. And I got, I've had a lot of different experiences. And you are so perfect at all of them. But well, I do think that sometimes it was a little bit like because it's like, when you are right next to someone else, like all you have to do is like, compare yourself to that. It's like, you know what I mean? It's like with like sisters or like twins. It's like, if something happens to one, the other one almost feels like why isn't happening to me. So I do feel like sometimes I would like overcorrect and like, really, really, really push myself to make sure that like I would develop in an equal way alongside of you. And like, in so many ways, I feel like, and it doesn't really matter what I feel like because as a result of existing and working and caring, you do develop. But just outside of all that, like one thing that I've had to learn. And I think now you'll be forced to learn is balanced. Yes. Like, and I think that, I hope that it cites you and doesn't start to make you anxious and nervous, because that's certain point. I just, I'm telling you like, you can always tell me if it does and you can always vocalize to like on camera. I'll say this like, you're a therapist and stuff like that. Like, you know what I mean? Like, be checking in about what it's going to feel like to suddenly not have an abnormal schedule. Truly, you know, I'm on it. Yeah. I think it's going to be okay. I will make room for like moments where it feels really bizarre or maybe even bad. You should be bored. I can't. Oh, don't even worry. Well, then the thing is it's so funny because like, literally, we're not like, so you're, we're going to Tokyo. We're going to Japan. We're going to Milan. We're full on continuing this podcast. Like, full steam ahead. We got a new contract and everything. Bitch. We got a new set. And can I just say, I want a new picture. We're getting a new picture. We tried this one. I liked it. But let's, let's, let's, we, we need to see our faces. This was so icon. The one of us naked and like this and you were like that was so iconic that I feel like, do we go back to it? I don't think we go back to it. I think, I think we have a picture of that works. Okay. I think maybe we do an animation on it. Oh. But anyway, so this is just for us. But what I was saying was like, um, you're gonna, you're gonna go to, do you tell everyone where you're going after Milan? I am going to Santiago and then through Drake's, Drake's passage and Antarctica with my parents because that is, I think it's, I'm gonna say it's my mom's dream. And Antarctica trip with my parents is so crazy. We're going to see the penguins. We're going to get our sea legs. I think I'm going to Vom on the boat. Are you sick? The roughest waters. Damn. It's the roughest waters. Um, but oh my god, I'm going to see, we have to like order like special parkas for this. Like, my mom, when she came when they came for Thanksgiving, they stayed with me and my mom was just like, whatever, like helping me clean the apartment, but it's just like on loop the entire time or just on an auto mixed playlist, just content about this boat in Antarctica, people and steerage, just like vomiting. Like, this is, she needs this to happen. And I need it to happen. I think this is what I'm saying. I'm like firehousing myself with a new experience. So how many continents will that mean you've visited five? Um, the only one that I'll have not visited by the end will be Africa. You've been to South America? I will have Santiago. Oh, right. So yes, of course. So that'll, that'll check that's Chile. Yeah. That'll check too. Anyway, I've randomly been to South America. I've randomly been to Bogota. Right. By the way, my god speaking of South America. So all this Venezuela stuff. Stuff. My, you know, my aunt used to live in Venezuela. No, shut up. Aunt Chrissy. What? Yeah. So, what does she think about all this? She's like, so, so I asked her. I was like, I was like, so what are your friends they're thinking? And she was like, honestly, like, they're, they're free. They're relieved. But she also is like, we'll see what happens in the next few weeks. Like, because certainly chaos is going to break out. Like, well, this is, this is all worked out so great in the past when we've been a part of regime. Exactly. I mean, but, but the thing is like, and I've seen some, some friends of mine who are Venezuelan are like sort of saying, like, you know, if you don't understand this, like, don't say anything, it's not as simple as like, like, when I do all of it, no, my one friend shared like, you know, if you're drowning and someone throws you a life raft, you don't question where it came from. It just, you just take it and then as well, it has been drowning. So that was like a take I hadn't considered because, you know, the vast response to it is like, this is illegal. What he's done. This is, you know, this is exactly like Iraq, you know, this is et cetera. And I think all those things are true. But it's been an interesting perspective to literally ask my, I mean, so my aunt was married to a guy from Venezuela back when they were a wealthy country. I didn't realize Chrissy was down there. So she was hurt my, my former uncle Maurice. Like, they were married and they got divorced because he was an asshole. But they were wealthy. And then Venezuela was at one time, like, prosperous. So she's still got friends back from that era. And they are not feeling like that anymore. Like it's gone off a cliff, like under like the regime of the past like 30 years. But it's been an interesting thing. Like, just to look a little bit beyond the initial reactions to what's going on. It is yet another complicated international moment. But yeah, it's just been really interesting. And I realized I had like a like a literal resource to people there. Yeah. Yeah. You know, should trade spots on the today. You should be behind the desk. I should become a real journalist. Yeah. I mean, not no. I almost did. You know, I went, you know, that I was initially a journalist journalism major. I thought I wanted to be Ryan Seacrest. You not even though he's not really a journalist. Yes, sure he is. I don't know. Is Ryan Seacrest a journalist? So I initially, I was like, I want to go to school for broadcast journalism. So I can hopefully one day get like a radio show and then maybe host something like American Idol. This is, but the whole time look underneath that I wanted to be an actor. Yes. Loki, like a singer. And so like, that was always buried underneath what I could package me wanting to be in the entertainment industry with. Which was at first broadcast journalism because that didn't seem to gay. Of course. And then comedy because that really didn't seem gay. That seemed. like edgy and fun and something that like, I could tell straight man and straight people in my life that I was doing and it was cool. It's like a way to be on stage that's not gay. Right. But I eventually like realized I am gay, but isn't that the tension with this, sooty has this, right? Like you just want to tell like any, any guy who like doesn't see it as theater or you're like it's theater. Yeah. It's like, you're doing something gay, dude. You're doing something. You're up on stage being like, hey, I'm in a full face of makeup, like, and I'm miked. You know how gay it is to get miked? You get miked. Someone has to run a cord down your shirt. It's so much. And then they have to like look, they have to like meticulously work on your collar as like gay. Yeah. Well, even just like stool in a water bottle. Yeah. That's still technically considered like, set a stool as one of the gayest chairs. A stool. A stool. A stool. One of the gayest chairs. Is one of the gayest chairs. Ariana Grande sat on one or kneeled on one for her second album. And gay culture was never the same and gay culture was never the same. What's your favorite Ariana album? Oh, that's so hard. Production on it. And why is it sweetener? Just kidding. No, I know. No, for months. It's actually positions. You love positions. I'm a, I'm a dangerous woman. Stand forever. Freak. Freak forever. Ain't nobody going to touch it. Touch it. Um, is she coming back on the show? Can we test texture? Yeah, we'll test. She. Well, I was going to say she obviously. If she doesn't do the culture words this year, it's because there are, she's got a million other things going on. Okay. She obviously wants to do it. Oh, my God. By the way, you know what? Just came out and we didn't even realize the sag and nominations. Oh, I know. Should we read them live? Let's read them. Okay. Wait. This is exciting. Before we do this, did you watch the like critics choice and everything? I did not watch the critics choice. It's looking like, um, Miss Madigan has taken that Academy Award, babe. Jacob. Surprise. Yeah. Huge surprise. Huge surprise. Um, okay. What is this? This says, oh, to be revealed on Wednesday. Uh, yeah. Sorry, guys. No problem. So they'll be out today. We'll listen to this in the morning. But yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I did not watch critics choice. I watched it. What are your thoughts? Um, so the winners were Chalamet. I think it's his year. Chalamet, Jesse. Jesse Buckley. I haven't seen Hamnet because I want to like, so this is the thing. You want to watch it? You should watch it on the plane to Tokyo. Maybe I will. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I need to be in the clear. I'm a little bit emotionally raw. Yes. Yes. Yes. And, um, I need to be in the clear with something like that. Totally. And you know what I'm realizing? It's like, it has to be the right time for me with some of these movies. I understand. Hamnet. I was going to go see it like a screening and I was like, oh, I just don't think it's like the right time. I'm going to be destroyed. So I didn't get to see it. And also I can't find four hours to devote to Avatar. I can't, I can't, I at the present time can't do it. I understand. Cause it, cause it's just three hours. I had tickets. Right. We were going to go with the band. Yes. And on the road and I was like, mm, with our precious time here before between rehearsing and traveling and doing shows like to watch a three hour 17 minute movie that's going to have over half an hour of previews and then you have to get there whatever that's like an almost four and a half hour commitment. Yeah. And I don't know what it is. I always enjoy the Avatar movies. You know, my baby is strong. My baby is strong. I hear the whales have a great dialogue in this one. And that's going to help me get there. It is. I also heard this Una Chaplin. Una Chaplin. What and the character she plays pro young or Pravong? Who's seen the movie? You have. Varong. Does she give? I hear she gives. I hear, I hear, I hear. I hear. Varong is the star. All right. Well, I'm going to go. It's just that there hasn't been ample time. I've been, I've weirdly like not stopped being busy. That's so weird of you. Yes. Of course. The tour, just to speak on the tour, the tour was like the best version of the tour ever. And I'm really, I didn't even give you the space and the flowers. Congratulations. It's like not my Christmas and December. Yes, it is. That's your name. Not you. It's both of our days. I have had a, you keep evolving the show several months. Yes, you have. The tour was the same grace that it always is for me. It like has, it was the best version of it ever. You sounded amazing. And this is my first year where I wasn't able to see it live, which I'm very sad about. It's all good because I literally spoke to our age and last night. So candidly like six weeks ago, I was like, maybe this is it. I was like, maybe this is the last year because I was just a lot. You know what? Like I'll just like on up to this. Like I've been feeling, I've been feeling a more self-conscious. And a little bit more vulnerable to people's opinion. And I think that like one of the things that happened when I was doing the tour is I was just like, just there with me and the band, which is like, we're such like a literal like unit on the road. We have so much fun. This was the most fun year yet and everyone that had come to pace and see that show. And like, I felt such like a duty to make it the best one yet. And I think that was what was giving me such anxiety was I felt like this weird combination of like self-consciousness about whether I was going to be able to deliver a product to that I that is good enough like for me to show everyone and get people out buying tickets and still come into the show. But also that was like in the face of me being really like like I hate to say it, but like caring what people thought and were saying and like just super aware that like I think that what you experienced like four years ago or maybe four or five years ago with becoming like a lot more recognizable, I experienced in the past like year, like. And I also went and I always try to like shy away from saying something like that because again, I compare myself to someone like you who's like much, much more recognizable and much, much has much, much more notoriety because of the platform that you're on. But I also like it wasn't serving me to deny that my reality was changing because it did. And like a lot of the things that people will say online when they're really mean is like he is no talent. Like he's just writing on Bowen's co-tales the most. And the thing is like with the show. And like when I, the concert with my like my Christmas show, yeah. And with like, you know, being involved in things with people, even just doing things like today's show, like being on Pomeroyale, like I was in that movie Good Fortune. I've had a busy year and doing the cultural awards, like was so edifying and came, I just ended the year being like all that is such bullshit. Like this is what I'm supposed to be doing and I will always do. I never in the beginning when I was developing myself and my talent and my career ever had any doubts about that. And then suddenly like, I don't know if it's because the cultural awards like truly took me for a ride and I had to reexamine a lot about my anxiety and stuff like that. And whether or not I enjoyed a lot of the elements that come along with putting yourself out there and being in the entertainment industry, I can fully confidently say at the end of this year that as long as I keep the focus on what matters, which is the work and how I'm making people feel and how I'm feel doing something, I have no doubt in my mind that I love this and that I will always do it. But I was having a hard time. I understand. And I also just want to say, you were meant for this. You are the funniest, most talented person, I know. That's subjective. And you are a bachelors rider, a new contract work ethic with that contract. And so he has to say this. That was actually made sure that was in the contract. I was happy to sign now, say my mile time, mile time is 436. Very good. But anyway, recurring joke on two guys, five rings, I literally, so what I mean to say is I literally have the conversation with our touring agent, Joe last night that we're going to do it again. Yes. So I'm going to do it again. And I'm always going to do it probably in some as long as, as long as Henry Kofreski doesn't bail on me and he already texted me like literally at the day or two after the tour ended. And he was like, I already have so many ideas for next year. I'm so excited. I love that. And that was so different than what the energy was like three or four years ago where you would end things. He fully told me like, I don't want to do it again. I feel like we need to leave a good thing. Right. And then I was like, just give me one more year. I was like, you know, I'll, I will train my voice with a, with a coach so that you don't have to do it or get me ready as much like I'll come to rehearsals really prepared. Oh man. I will, I will work on, you know, it was hard when it was just he and I of course. Like it was, he was, he was my ex boyfriend, right? It was just he and I traveling around the country. And I was like, not the train singer I am now. And so sometimes tech was hard or whatever, but I worked on it really hard. And I've, I've worked on myself really hard. And I'm finally doing things like without saying too much like recently that really put me first and have a belief in myself worth. And I'm so serious this year, I'm not engaging with the online discourse. I'll say something like that. It does not serve me. I'll say something about that. It doesn't serve you. No, of course. But the thing about you being just you and Henry, like, this is something that even I forgot. But that is like the gumption and the resourcefulness and like the like self-leaning thing that you've had to like depend on for all these years. Like, Matt, you've like think of like how that's developed over like the past five years. Like that is so it really makes me feel like anything is like possible with people in your life because like he and I are truly like soul connected in terms of like what we create what we do. And sometimes when I'm doing the show, especially towards the end of the tour, like I'll look back at him and I'll be like, I can't believe that's still that person. Like I cannot believe that that person is still around, especially after like, you know, how stupid you are when you're like 26, 27 years old and how you treat people that are close to you and how how like you really have to like stick with people, especially like through your late 20s, early 30s, and then not everyone is supposed to stick around. No, but I'm like so happy that he has. And it connects me to Ethan, his partner now who's like makes my tour better. He's the tour manager, et cetera. I've had like no emotional release since then. So it's like because I stayed really busy and just like a lot's been going on. But yeah, like I just I'm super grateful. I'm super grateful that everything shook out that with obviously with that project. But with him, I mean, that's really the most important thing. Like at the end of the show, like the band takes a bow and then I make sure that just Henry and I take a bow because like he truly like, you know, see you guys. People that know the Lord know the Lord. The Lord is truly profound. It's like you guys really boosted each other up from like what didn't seem like any sort of like, I don't know, like low point. But it's like we we were all like we didn't really know like how and that's a beautiful thing. We didn't really know how much we were like struggling. And it wasn't even I don't want to frame it as a struggle either. We were just like really working really hard like we did not. Yeah. We did not come from this with like, I don't know like with too many like blessings besides like the obvious ones. Yeah. And like this is this is not to make this about me, but this is like our dichotomy you and I is always and I and I feel completely great about this. Like I feel like I see like my track on like in the last seven years is like me being a part of something that like affords me a lot of things and you being almost exclusively a self starter. Like you get to look at this tour as like your creation, your and Henry's beautiful thing that you've built together. And I get to be like, oh, I've I had a great time on this thing that like on this very well oiled machine. Well, we started this girl. That's true. And I think we take this for granted a lot. For sure. I think we take this for granted a lot. And I feel like, you know, this is like the this is the first episode of the 10th year of the podcast. And that's like crazy. And I think the reason we don't think of it sometimes as like, even though we do a lot of work for it, sometimes I don't realize how much work I'm doing for it. Like sometimes I'm like, whoa, like I just spent hours like working on the podcast. And I think because it's rude and something that is so easy, which is like talking to you and like our friendship. But I am sensitive about this. Like I'm really sensitive about this podcast. And why I guess what I want people to know is like, like we are working so hard. And we're still even before we started rolling, we sat here for like 10 minutes being like, what like really thinking about the color of the chairs for the set? Like really caring about and think who we put on this podcast and what we share and how we get out of them and how we deliver to you. I mean, I will be transparent and say that man, I've had turned down many people, not people. I'm saying a lot of money for deals where like, it would compromise the way that this gets delivered. I'm just gonna, we're just gonna, are we? I feel like I feel fine. I feel good about saying that like because it is true. And this is, I guess, again, what I want to say is that like we have earned the right to do this the way we want to do it. I'm so fucking glued. That being said, that being said, let's talk about some culture. Last thing, last thing I'll say about like the like about like what's being said and like being sensitive to that. The reason why I was also very emotional the last show and just seeing like that sort of thing being like directed in my way that kind of that outpouring as I said earlier of love is because it completely undid this other narrative that was running parallel in my mind. The very vocal loud one, whereas I think the love one is like, was there all along? I just wasn't attuned to it. But the vocal loud other track that was going on was like, yeah. But listen, like everyone who works at that show engages on different levels with like the comments. Right. It gets to us because it's weekend and week out and you really don't ever get a break to be like, oh, let me not engage. No, and they're so consistent. And even the alums are like, I don't know how you guys do it now. Yeah, there would be like one review right in New York magazine on Sunday, and then that would be it and everyone going on about their lives. Your body is always giving you signals, whoop helps you understand them, whoop is the wearable health and fitness coach that provides personalized insights until your sleep, recovery, strain, and overall help to help you make better decisions every day. Whether you're training, working, traveling, or just trying to fill your best, whoop shows you what helps your performance and what might be holding you back. Listen to your body, build better habits, see where whoop can take you, try whoop free for 30 days at whoop.com. For more than a century, Miss America sold the country of fantasy. Okay, here we go. Hello to lawsuits. Now I'm back with season two of this podcast, Curse of Miss America, investigating the rise, fall, and uncertain future of one of America's most iconic institutions, the Miss America pageant. I never received scholarship, I need to pay for my student loans. He looks and he goes, you don't look like you suffered in the eating disorder. It's great, but looks too ethnic. Listen to the Curse of Miss America on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Hamza and I'm Martin and we're the host of Out of Character. It's a podcast. I know there's a lot of them going around, but why should you listen hours? Well, we're only the best podcast in the entire world and we talk about pretty much everything under the sun. For example, music we're listening to, underground music, trending music, drama in music worlds. Yes, sometimes we even talk about just everyday mundane situations in our lives like the cool Uber driver we just had or the food we just say that is surprisingly delicious or we'll talk about the Med Gala and the looks that they wore. Are they awesome? Are they trendy? Come find out because our opinion matters and so does yours and this is a place where all of our minds can come together and connect. So what are you waiting for? Come connect with us. Listen out of character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Pods or wherever you get your podcasts. Get worse with Kyle Proo is not one of those podcasts. So if you're interested in getting thinner, going to therapy, starting peptide, setting boundaries, taking supplements, making your better getting closer, then I would humbly recommend other podcasts. But if you're interested in blackmail, love bombing, cloning yourself or getting revenge, then we've got a little something, something for a dastardly individual like you. Fake a back injury. Kill 'em. Kill 'em. Kill 'em with a gun. The next time a bear is running at you, you just calmly stop what you're doing, you look the bear in the eye and you say this isn't you. Do not preserve relationships, you don't need them. Listen to Get Worse with Kyle Proo on the iHarm Radio App Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember it? years ago Tina Fey, like one in Emmy. And she used, I remember at the time watching it. And her speech was mostly used to respond to online commenters. She's a whole chapter in bossy pants about it. Yes. And I realized now that that was not purely ironic. No. No. And that's okay. It's okay because this doesn't make any fucking sense the way that anyone that that we have that we are openly available to read anyone else's thoughts about what we do. And yeah. And so this is what I'll say about like the commenters for me, which is like, I feel like I was really bogged down the entire time I was there about like the idea that like there was no range or anything I did. That's just such a lazy. Well, it's just there's it's not lazy. It's just it makes sense in terms of like they're being like they're being like an indigestion as it were with like receiving me where I'm like I knew I was never going to play the dad. I was never going to play you know the generic thing in sketches where it's a sketch show. Each thing is like four minutes long. It is short and collapsed by sort of necessity. And so therefore it plays on archetypes. These archetypes are also in relationship with like generic things. And there is a genericism in whiteness and in like being like a canvas to like build upon. And like I had like I came in sort of like pre stretched pre-died whatever. You know, like people had their overdeterminations on like what I was, which was like, "Oh, that's just the gay Asian guy in SNL." And so any time I would try to like work outside of that, it got completely ignored or it still got collapsed too. Oh, he's an age. He's being engaged. You did so many things that were first of all, it is a I don't think people necessarily know they're being homophobic when they say 100% but it is because I'm sorry, but if you don't have range. I think range is a myth and it's all about like palatability whether there's a surp whether you're getting taxed on it or you are subsidized. Do they knock Pete Davidson for range? Or does he get to get away with it because it's cool and like within a male gaze? I could, I could, is that wrong or right? I could teach like a media studies like seminar about this, I think. I bet you should. You both, both of us could. I'll be the TA because you know what they do? Nothing. They have no range. And so this is the thing. I just bring this up because that is one little thing that I wanted to like that I'm getting so much clarity on. It's the reason why I've been so emotional about the post, like the post script of this. You talking about all the work you put into the tour into your projects into this show. That is all running count. That is that is the panacea to all of that noise. It's not real. And this is not real and it's so easily debunked. That's what drives me crazy. Is I know I could lie on and kill these people in a second. Of course. And George, um, George Severus was saying this on straightaway lab, it's like, there's like a phenomenon going on now where like there's like a, it's kind of like pleuribus. It's like, there's like the remaining people. There's like a survivor ship thing happening where it's like the remaining people in the comments are either like clearly bots or clearly mentally ill or truly children or 12. As Lucidic it says they're all 12. There's one person online who constantly comes for me. Uh-huh. And I realized recently that they're 13. Right. I it became very clear to me that they look kid. And I was just like, Oh, God, how much brain space have I been angry at this 13? And you know, they're failing pre algebra. It's sad. It's like, Oh, the fact that you're obsessed with me means that you are not doing well. You're not, you're not selling girl scout cookies this year. I mean, and that, that my thing is just like, and, and I, and I don't, it's, I'm not, we're not dunking on that person. No, no, no. That's just reality. You're just 13 on the internet. So, and you have every right to do that. I am an idiot for investing in it. And like, it's an opinion, but I was using the fucking Reddit as a report card. No, no, no, no, first of all, that's a report card kid. I'm invisible to that Reddit. Meanwhile, they're all like, I don't get it. We need Matt's takes on heated rivalry. Oh, I'm on the recently look at it. I'm like, I'm on this show too. By the way, whenever they just mentioned me, it's because they love the attached. I think that I am, I feel more accessible to them because I'm not actually a list famous. And I also think that I think they think they know what you think about heated rivalry. Let's get into it. Sure. He's just thinking about heated rivalry. A show can be so amazing and incredible, even if there's virtually zero conflict in it. I fucking love it. I'm obsessed with the show. Did you ever come to the show? I never touched my dick once. I think I paused, walked around like, how to snack it then I jerked off. I wasn't like, oh, let me, you know what? Before I watched it, I jerked off to it because I was like, I'm not going to watch that. Might as well just use it what it's for porn because I had been told so many times this is porn. Right. And then I was like, wow, this is a cultural phenomenon. I must pay attention to. You cannot because suddenly it was all over my algorithm. Someone that hadn't even watched it. I was like, okay, the world is deciding it's this. It was as big as white lotus. I would say so. So finally, I watch it. Here's my two takes. That's not porn. I did not think that I thought it was explicit. I did not think it was grotesque. It did not feel too much. I wasn't, maybe I just watched too much porn. I wasn't like, clutching my pearls watching it. I was like, oh, this looks like hot sex to me. Hot movie sex to me. I was like, oh, look at the framing on that. There's a lot of negative space above their asses that you don't see that. Can I say something? It is all love to Jordan Firstman. And I think he's probably sorry. He said this about like, gay guys don't have sex like that. Like, I don't need to see someone pull out their dick and a little bit of poop on it. Like, I'm sorry. That's what gay sex is like. I don't need that. In heated rivalry, the romance show. This is, this is the other thing. This is also like dovetails on my, on my first comment about heated rivalry, which is like no conflict. It's because it is a fantasy. And it's because it's this is the, this is like the romance genre. It's like every word, every detail is engineered to make you obsessed with it. Yep. And it worked. And it worked. And, and welcome to the Fujoshi community. Like, I've known about this world since I was 12 on fiction press.com where the people who were writing the best Yahweh gay shit were women. Listen, I think Erella, if you're still out there, she was the queen of Yahweh fiction. And I was like, oh, it's, oh, the street cis women love the gay stuff and are the best at writing it. Well, do you want to know what Rachel Reed? First of all, she has imagination and writing about it. And then like a gay, a gay man did create the show. Like, and so he is in charge of like the way it disseminates from the page of the novel to the screen. And he did an amazing job. And I do think he's being erased a little bit in this commentary about like, oh, no, no, no, it's straight guys playing those roles. My second point is you do not know that they're not gay totally. And I don't care. Oh, but also I don't care. I don't think well, at this point, it's like the target keeps moving for this discourse because like, oh, say it. So dimwak, so dimwaw fucking like docks. Shit about. I'm like, they're on the way down. First of all, they fucking dimwaw and page six are just spewing lies that like my PR team has been like, that's not true. I did not get a lot of money thrown at me. No, he did not. Which is all good. I still did it. Still loved it. Yeah. I don't have some like development deal coming. Trying to make this whole thing out of how there was so much drama about me leaving the show about how Lauren was pissed. It's all good. I clearly, otherwise that none of that would have happened. That would not have made it to tell. And then I'm like, when you talk to me, whatever, fucking idiots, including just whatever, it's not I don't think. I said to do more because years ago, they did like a celebrity who's nice, who's naughty list. I said, I was naughty. I'm nice to literally every single person. Literally. I don't know. It's TMZ. It's Perez. It's like, it's it's all the fucking morales. Oh, I'm ashamed of anyone anyway. Anyway, anyway. Okay. But, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, the target keeps moving. But don't you, and are do you say that because it's like, it's like the, the, the fervor about the show is like, I obviously think it means that like, it means a really good thing in that we can actually have because we're always saying the reason why they won't do stuff with like gay stories is because we feel there's anic factor around gay sex, right? Like it feels like outside of the straight male gaze in a way that's like too uncomfortable. There's object theory. Right. And now it's like, here we are. It's like huge, like literally huge. So I think that's, that's good. But like, I think the fact that we don't exactly necessarily have a finger on their sexuality allows that to be true because I think if that's true, explicit gay guys, like you had scenes that were just as hot as that in a show that was, quote, unquote, better than that with fellow travelers. And no one said a word. We didn't mean it. Totally. Like, and those were two out gay guys, of course. Yeah. I mean, there's certainly something there. I mean, there's a dialectic in this, for sure, where it's like, people are like, it should only, it should only be in the bedroom. Well, that's like a fucking Republican talking point. It's like, okay, let's, like, we got to figure out, like, they're, it lives in the middle of like, they should share everything about their sexuality and their sexual lives in real life. And they should share nothing. It's like, whatever, it's like, they performed it so well. They was great. Like, first of all, Connor's story, Mark my words, he will win an Oscar one day. Phenomenal. He is really talented. And I love Hudson's performance too. He's the one who makes me really horny. Oh, it's the nipple. It honestly is. He's got a very unique, very red. That reminds me of Chad Michael Murray years ago. Oh, did he have pepperoni? They were like appetizer plates. Y'all me. They were huge red and more. They literally were. I remember there was it. There was, his, he was always like, he was so hot. Chad, he actually was, he was one of those guys when I was like coming of age and like, getting into my sexuality, that would make me angry. Another one, Justin Timberlake red nipples. They were red. Redder pink. Can we look it up? Matt. Matt is a potter. Like can someone just Google Justin Timberlake nipples? They just sold their New York City apartment for 40 million. That seems like too much. Feels like trouble. Oh, what are we? Jamois? Yeah, I guess so. Well, they're on the way out. Should we just be Dumois now? Dumois over. Dumois over. Oh, we, we would love to be Dumois. We're not some like anonymous gossip girl, you want to be like, she, I can't stand. But anyway, yeah, no, there's something about Hudson that just like was like immediately totally not so sweet. We wrote, so we wrote two versions of Bowen is straight for the last two shows. One with Josh O'Connor, where we do a challenge. I can't believe this. We read the script. It was a dumb decision. We got to have him say it was like, you know, we, we, we got him to say and he was laughing through the scene. Those are pink. Those are not red. Oh, this from no strings attached. I know every screen grab. Oh, the Janet Jackson thing keeps popping up. If you, if you Google, I think Hudson's are more red. I think CMM's Chad Michael Murray's are, I can picture him having red nibble. Hudson's are red. Oh, I can't believe we're talking about his, it's not that it's friends with benefits. Famously the other one that year. By the way, you've Googled this and it's from Instagram and it's just a fan pages screenshot of this and the caption is this. Justin Timberlake shirtless is one of the best parts of the movie friends with benefits. So sexy heart. Thank you, Hannah. Thank you so much. What was I going to say to the heater rivalry of it all? Just like what I was going to say was, I don't care that if they're gay or not, they performed it with honesty and they were really committed and they have unbelievable chemistry. I don't care that they don't come out and say what their sexuality is because what's important is the representation that is on the screen. Right. Like, I think it's becoming a little bit narcissistic for actors to be like, no, it needs to be me. That does it. It needs to be me. That does it. It needs to be honest. It's just like, it gets to a point sometimes with sexuality where I'm like, guys, we're putting the cart for the course a little bit here. Like, we have to make them first. If they don't exist. My thing is, and I might, this will probably get some sort of, please write in. Please talk me down from this, y'all. Listeners. We just kiddies up with the spinal skulls. I feel like performing sexuality or queerness is like, because queerness is like an internal experience, like, it's different than like, oh, well, this person ethnically should be played by this ethnic person. That I totally, right, makes sense to me. I think there's more room to like, I don't know, be like, not necessarily exactly. It's like, well, what's, you know, Ilya's bi, but like, I don't know if Connor's bi, you know, it's like, would it be better if Connor was gay or if Connor was bi? Like, this is where we start splitting hairs. And so then, so then, so my, my thing is always it's an interior experience. Therefore, it's okay, but also, you know, this other thing of like, we're not supporting gay creators. Well, I don't know, like, we're perfect examples. It's like, anytime we get a press release announcement for something we're working on, people fucking melt down about it. The ones on gay Twitter who just can't stand that we, it's anything. It's fine. It's like, it is what it is, but like, don't pretend that you're rooting for gay guys all the time. Like, don't pretend you're rooting for gay guys when like, you bone yang takes the fucking shit. And it's, he can do anything. Right. Exactly. So that's, that's my, that's my like, stitch together take. My other thing about heated rivalry, which I, I go back and forth on whether I love or if I'm like, huh, as like, this story takes place over, like, seven years, all the needle drops were songs from 2007. Oh, it's like, give me your eyes. I need a sun dry. It's like, why? That's playing in a scene that's happening in like 2017. No problem. There's a little bit of a vibe of hunting wives where you can tell of it. So it's, it's a little, by the way, I think both produce by three yards. Love it. It's just a little cheaply done. No. No. What? Oh, yeah, you're right. Even even Francois or Noah's like, this, all this Miley Cyrus stuff, it's like, we don't have a Miley budget for like, her to write a song for us. Right. It's like, oh, they will now. They will now. But I guess what I'm saying is there's something charming about it. Yes. There's something charming about like how we had no budget for the culture. Yeah. I mean, there's something charming about like, you know, watching the skit thrown together, but the thing that, and that's why the thing that really makes it work is their chemistry and their performances. And I'm loving them on the press store. I mean, they're nailing it. It looks fun to me. I'm like, see, it should, that's, I guess, what sells something is when someone is out there having fun. You know what? Like, people have a lot to say about Timothy Shalamay. I think he needs to put his foot on the gas on this. What everything in early is, no, I mean, I'm just on top of the sphere. More. Oh, you're crazy. You know, he was nervous. He took a beta blocker. Oh, yeah. That's, that's an age boy. Beta blockers are life-saving tools. Absolutely. This is, this is one of the greatest inventions in modern past. Thank you, propanonal, propanon, a lot. That's tough. They could have named that better. That's because that's giving me that's getting my heart rate up. Did you ever watch, I guess, I don't know what else to say about heated rivalry. It rocks. It rocks. I loved. I was late to it because I was like, there's no way. And then I felt the way everyone else felt. I talked to someone and you know what they said. What they said, heated rivalry gave me everything I was expecting from life of a showgirl. And I was like, why is that me? I was like, I don't know this necessarily tracks. But then he was like, let me explain. And by the way, I like live a showgirl. And if you think I'm lying, come to me on the streets. Come to me on the streets and tell me that you think I'm lying. And I'll show you my recently played. Wow. I covered Elizabeth Taylor on the road. And you said that I'm in my life of a showgirl era. You are in your life of a showgirl era. I can't say that. That's interesting. I'm getting a football player. No, just kidding. I can't say whatever I'm in. But anyway, this person telling you that, oh, they were like, it's a pop album. They're like, it has all those little bursts. And it's like fun. And it feels like, like, like, it's gonna, like, it just feels like non-caloric in the way that you're going to be okay. But then by the end, you're like, wow, surprised. I feel full. Surprise. Oh, I felt very full because I was like, yeah, because like for the first, the first three episodes was like, okay, this is, yeah, I'm along for the ride, but I'm not sure what to track. And then episode five, I was like, this is cinema. Oh, no, episode, at the end of episode five, I was like, well, I'm coming to the cottage. I was like, and I was like, wait, and then you know it's one of the highest rated episodes on IMDB, like, ever. Perfect. It's up there with like white caps from the other sopranos. I love that. I love that. I love that. You have made a full of me for years with these horns. I'm Carmella. You are Carmella. Oh my God. You're Dr. Melfi. Are you laughing? Because you know, it's true. She's, she's an icon, a full blown. It's the glasses. It's the glasses. It's the brakho of it all. Right, right, right. Um, um, um, wait, the cottage. You, this is, this is the thing. My fantasy is only a lake house in Ontario. I know you've been saying that. I can't believe, I can't believe. You can still do it. I can still do it. He feels like he can't do it anymore. He's like, uh, now that the cottage is in culture, I can't have the cottage. Not that, not that an an Asian guy has a cottage in Ontario. I can't do it. Um, no, I understand what they're saying now about it being life of a showgirl because it is, um, it is giving you a sense of safety. Yeah. Because this is the thing about like the no conflict thing. I'm not being snorky by the way. I'm just saying, like, I love the fact that it's like, here's a problem. My dad's homophobic two things later. He's dead. Uh, here's a problem. Spoiler alert. Sorry. Here's a problem. My parents aren't gonna be okay with the fact that I'm gay. Two scenes later, we love that you're gay. - You're perfect. - We love that you're gay. - Yeah, why didn't you text me back? - No problem, two scenes later. (laughing) - You're in love. - It honestly was like as bad as their communication was. - Oh, this is why I wanted to say it surprised me so much and why I loved it because you know what it reminded me of. One of my favorite movies, Love and Basketball. - Oh, yes, you've said this. - It reminded me so much of Love and Basketball, which is a classic and it's actually criterion. And if you didn't know, now you know, Gina Prince Bythwood, an underrated director, by the way, who's gone on to do so many more things since then she actually did the Woman King. - So good. - And but what I loved about it was like the time lapse really helped the romance. The fact that it was like sports, but not really. Like they were passionate about something else and also each other. The fact that it was like will they won't they over the years? Like you believably felt like you were growing alongside them, but it moved quickly. Like I just like, and it was very sexy. Like. - Alan B. - I think it would have felt weird if it was like chased sexuality in the game show because gay guys just be, we just fuck. - And they're athletes. - Yeah, exactly. - They're healthy motherfuckers. - No, that ass was made to thrust. - Like it wasn't made to, like you're not gonna see just like, it's this is not the age of innocence. - No. - Like gay guys fuck, gay athletes fuck. - Period. - Hopefully they fuck us in Milan. - Oh. - Have you thought about that? - Now. - Other thing. - Did you ever watch the end of an era documentary? - I. - 'Cause I did it twice. - Oh my god. - Six episodes did each one twice on apologetic. - On apologetic. - No, but I love that we have committed to film the tortured poet's portion of the backstory. - Here's what I love about the documentary. Because I do think it wants you to know a few things. It wants to remind you she's brilliant. - Yes. - And I think it does do that. Like there's scenes of her playing guitar, like rehearsing her, like, and on the piano, like rehearsing her surprise songs and everything. And like, you do see how it really, every element of that, like, was her vision. She truly isn't control of it. Like, so I think, like, after all of the discourse about her, the documentary wants you to know she is a talent. - Can we put that to rest? - Yeah, there's the weird thing where one life of a show girl came out and some people took Umbridge with a lot of the lyrics that she's, like, not a good writer. I think it's truly silly. I actually do think that people have Taylor Swift arrangement syndrome. - Well, they have a deranged syndrome and they have like an amnesia. - Back in the day, like, everyone had everything to say because the whole media thing, there's a reason why reputation exists, right? - Exactly. - And it's because there was a widespread notion that she was, like, terrible. - Yeah. - And there was, like, you know, whatever, like, quote unquote, the receipts to prove that. And then she genuinely, like, fought back from, like, whatever hell she was in to do this. But she's able to do that because she is that talented. So there's that. The documentary also wants you to know that it's not about money. - Uh-huh. - Like, there's a part where Andrea Swift is like, you know, it's always just been about her sharing her music and doing that and et cetera. And I think that might be the part that's tough for people to buy. Especially because of, like, you know, just like, people's assessment of her and the story about how much money she's worth and how much money the tour makes and the variance of it all, et cetera. But you can leave the documentary thinking, like, you know what, this is an extremely generative person and because she's generating a lot, she sells a lot. - And she's also, like, meaningfully diverting a lot of those funds to, like, the people who make that tour happen. - Right. And so I think that that's obviously a focus of it as well. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And I think, finally, they want you to know that her values are liberal. There's a lot in the documentary about her dancers. She really puts a lot of the spotlight on her dancers and the highlight on her dancers and how gender is not a thing on stage. Like, one of the dancers, one of the male dancers, this dream is to dance ready for it. But ready for it is, like, an all-girl number. And the arc of the episode is him getting to do it because she allows him to do it and he fucking crushes. And, you know, you then look at the stage and you think of the show and you're like, "Oh, wow, I never thought that that person "would never turn out or should be wearing the acting," like, this, et cetera. Like, it really is, like, a pretty lovely display of diversity in that respect, in all respects. So I think in terms of all that stuff, like, it's super successful. And you get the, I think, very cool stuff, which is watching them record their albums, which I can't see enough of Ariana do. - Yes, yes, yes, or anybody. - Taylor's great to watch. And I have such an appreciation of her. Watching Ariana is, like, something different because, like, I just, I think she's truly a genius in the studio, the way she comps her own vocals and stuff, I would kill, I would pay, to be a fly on the wall just watch her in the studio for it. - I should let you. I, to answer your question here, I think "Internal Sunshine" is her best produced album. 'Cause it was like, it was, it was, it was Max and her, and Ilya. - Yeah, Ilya. - When are we going to the tour? - I guess we're going. - No, what New York? - Barclays, July. - Is it Barclays? - She's doing Barclays Animus G, I think. - Okay, that's chic. - Yeah, I, I wonder how that's like, but I've seen that happen before, people do Barclays Animus G. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, we'll do that. - Your body is always giving you signals. Woop is the wearable health and fitness coach that provides personalized insights until your sleep, recovery, strain, and overall help to help you make better decisions every day, whether you're training, working, traveling, or just trying to fill your best. For more than a century, Miss America's owed the country a fantasy. - Well, are you ready, ladies? Okay, here we go. - But over the past decade, the crown's been slipping. - They said, goodbye to swimsuits, now, hello to lawsuits. - I'm Bridget Armstrong. Now I'm back with season two of this podcast, Curse of Miss America, investigating the rise, fall, an uncertain future of one of America's most iconic institutions, the Miss America patent. - I never received scholarship, I need to pay for my student loans. - He looks and he goes, you don't look like you suffered in the eating disorder. - It's great, but looks too ethnic. - It's a story the Miss America organization really doesn't want us to tell. - An exploitation of our Miss America's is treated by the Miss America organization as an attack on Miss America itself. - Listen to the Curse of Miss America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. - I'm Hamza, and I'm Martin, and we're the hosts of Out of Character. It's a podcast, I know there's a lot of them to listen to these days. - Well there's a specific reason why you should listen to us. - We are the best podcast in the entire world, I swear. - I know, bold, but why don't we list some of the things we might talk about on a regular episode? - And how nice they were, or if we tip them or not, come and find out. - Sometimes we'll talk about that weird news story from last week. It's the one you're thinking about, trust me. Or maybe we'll talk about music and what's happening in the underground, or drama and music, or TV shows, or the Met Gala and what the actors wore. And if you wanna see what that's like, come join us. Listen Out of Character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network. On the iHeart Radio app, Apple Pods, or wherever you get your podcasts. - There are thousands of podcasts that can tell you how to better yourself. But if you're interested in blackmail, love, bomb, and cloning yourself or getting revenge, then we've got a little something, something for a dastardly individual like you. Fake a back injury. Kill 'em. Kill 'em with a gun. The next time a bear is running at you, you just calmly stop what you're doing, you look the bear in the eye, and you say this isn't you. You don't need them. You only need one thing, and that's the Get Worse podcast. Listen to Get Worse with Kyle Pru on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. a cop to something. Okay. I'm gonna cop to something. So when that happened with turning point, you thought it was AI. No, I knew it was her. By the way, anyone being like, Nikki, we lost her. She's been gone. She's been gone. And the writing was on the wall for this because the fact is, Nicki Minaj was kicked out of mainstream culture because she's married to a sex offender. Unrepetent. She allegedly, allegedly was intimidating his victims from like saying anything, doing anything, whatever, that's a legend. And she was picking fights with everyone in music. And it was out of pocket. And she was obviously a bully and unwell. So that's why she went to turning point because she needed an audience at all. She probably wants like, you know, something out of the president too at some point, but like she clearly didn't believe one word of what she was saying. That was the most inauthentic thing I've ever fucking seen. Maybe she does now because it's like it's being invalidated. I don't I don't I think she's like gone, gone. The whole thing of like, it's okay to be a boy. I was like, you're saying this to be mean spirited because you feel like but hurt and disappointed that the people who made your career now take on range with the bullshit that you're doing. And so you're railing against them. You don't actually believe that. But anyway, fuck her. But I will say because I knew she was gone forever. The day after I took my moment to listen to her music for the last time. And what did you think? It's sad. It's sad. But you know, it's there will there are there are others. There will be others. I said goodbye. You said goodbye. I said goodbye. And then I streamed in my the drama. And I watched Cardi be amazing on drag race. So good. Yeah. I have nothing else to add. I was just like I was just it was it was all over my FYP. And I was just like, well, of course, right. I was like, uh-huh. It was ridiculous. Everything about everything going on with the GOP right now is ridiculous. Obviously, it's been that way. But I'm loving watching them fall apart. And I do think that's what's happening. What else? Housewives. I, what do you think of the Meredith of it all on Salt Lake? I don't counter out. I definitely don't counter out. But what do something is fishy about it to me? What part like the fact that she's being like pushed out? So sure. This is the case. I don't get what the case is. Well, I think what they're trying to say is that she's got an alcohol or drug problem. Like Mary being like, I see it. Like, right. I don't know. I guess like do you feel as viewers we are seeing what they are claiming they're seeing? Well, I think we are not seeing the flight, the flight footage, which I guess is like I texted Andy about it. I was like, does it exist? He said, no, we would have shown it. That's so wild. By the way, just to make this explicitly clear, I have never had sex with Andy Cohen. I will never have sex with Andy Cohen. At one point, I kind of wanted to in the very, very, very beginning. But if we were going to have fucked, it would have happened by now probably many times. If you ever see me talking to Andy in a way that would suggest we've had sex, it's because we are flirting because it's funny. He is a friend. He is now our boss. That's what the extent of it. And if you're going to make fucking content about this, like get this person's fucking name. That one girl called me mad Fraser, which obviously, I think it was a mistake. But I sometimes think that straight women just need to stop and remember they are straight women before they talk about the way that gay guys are being. Just like before you talk about the way gay guys are being understand, like there might be something else there. Like, and of course, it is like loose between gay men. We just don't think about this stuff as much as you guys are. But Andy and I are having fun. We do owe him a book. That's why he said that to us. That's why I said we were going to have time to work on it soon. Thinly veiled illusion to the fact that we now have a lot more time to work on it. Like there is no drama or tension between Andy Cohen and I. Nothing. I don't know about the mirror death of it all. Anyway, we love her. We love the Marx's love. And I just, but I'm just like, I just wish I was seeing right. What they're seeing totally. I am. I did start watching the Cult of the Real House. So I have the Miriam Cosby doc. I know what was what was going on. I am like, this is not right. No, no, no. I was like, whatever case you're trying to make here, it's like, okay, but all those documentaries are such positive. I know, but it's also like, they use a lot of like our content. Also like a lot of our, a lot of friends who like make housework content. They do like take clips of like us like getting Charlie X to talk about Miriam Cosby and how much she loves her. Like it's like, it's like, oh, well, you didn't clear that with. That's not that they like had legally. But I'm like, oh, like it just, I don't know. It just kind of seems this is not to like, minimize any of the allegations. It's just like, yeah, persuasive stuff used to mean something. Right. Oh, well, nothing more. Nothing means anything anymore. I open my algorithm now. And it's like, it's all AI. And I don't want it. And I'm like, how would anyone coming into the world be able to believe anything at this point? And I think the AI conversation is also so boring. Right. Yeah. At this point, what feels like, like Iroly is like, it's inevitable. It's like, right. But also like, I don't think the appetite for this is linearly going to grow. No, no, no, it's people. I think I think the vast majority of people have no appetite for it. But this idea like it's coming and you have to deal with it is making people like sort of resigned to the fact. And I just don't want people to, like, I guess like you can resign to learning. I guess how to use AI well or correctly. But what I don't like are people resigning themselves to giving up their creativity or their autonomy in terms of like finding information or creating stuff. Like that to me is bad. And I think it's confusing when you're like, it's here, get used to it. What does that, what does get used to it mean? It's just like an, it's like an energy that people have about it. But like those are the same people who are like having casual conversations with chat GPT being like, what's your, how are you? It's like, what are you, what are you doing? You killed just killed some penguins. There's going to be way less penguins for Boeing to say, and I want to see them. He wants to see them bad. This is the trip of a lifetime. Yes. You know, you know, I think you might be ready for movie wise. Let's go back to that conversation. Yes. Someone washing on a plane in front of me that you know is my fucking nightmare. No, well, then yeah, I think you might be ready for sentimental value. It's not like completely, of course, I am. Have you seen it yet? It's not like completely what it's not like completely devastating the way that Hamlet allegedly is. Oh, yeah. I heard Catherine's great in it. Catherine is so funny and I can't. Catherine, you can tell that Jochem loves her. I just saw Catherine. We just saw Catherine. I told Kim's wedding. And I was like, what a great, she's so funny in the running man. She's been booking. I'm worth, we're thrilled. Oh, fucking love that. But I'm trying to think like what else like there has been. Is any music come out? I just December, January's always a tough time. Yeah. Well, we didn't really ever get a chance to talk about Lily Allen. We like it as much as everyone else. Of course. Great. And then there was also what else? What else? Well, next week, Robin will be here. And that's going to be very exciting. And um, yes. That's that. That's that. So I guess it's time for I don't think so, honey. Yes. This is the part where we do I don't think so, honey. It's our 60 seconds segment where we rant, rail, rave, and turn the party ultimately. Um, and by turn the party, we mean hopefully change hearts and minds about this thing and culture that we just think needs. I think I will. Yeah. I do too. Okay. Great. Anyway, I'm sure you will. This is Matt Rogers. I don't think so when he's time starts. Now, I don't think so, honey. Gavin Newsom, if you're going to run for president, you need vocal surgery. Oh, you need to remove the polyps on your vocal cords. Listening to you is a nightmare. And I have a feeling you're going to be talking a lot. Um, I don't necessarily want that. I don't think we will win with him. But um, just go to LA, ask people how they feel being there. Um, but anyway, I do think that while there's a lot of crises in the world, thirty seven number one, one actionable thing that Gavin Newsom can do right now is texted Anna got three and get whoever just did her vocal surgery. She just had the polyps surgery. You're going to need to be silent for about six weeks afterwards. But don't worry. You can still tweet 15 seconds. You can still dunk on Trump, which is apparently something that people still think is going to like win. Um, and not speaking directly actionably to people on their concerns like say Bernie Sanders does who is the only durable remaining politician over the last decade that's been like consistent and is still around in a meaningful way. Take notes, maybe, but in the meantime, uh, I need to stop hearing your voice as it is. That's one minute. Get vocal surgery and finish the damn 405. No, he won't do that. Why not? Nothing will happen in California. I know because he's too busy. He's busy doing other shit. And then I get calls from, um, uh, council people who are running in LA and I tell them exactly what I fucking feel. And they're like, oh, well, it's just hard because this and I'm like, then talk to big boy talk to big boy Talk to big boy and get them to fucking fix California Because it's never been worse. No, it's so you think you're gonna be the governor of California with that hair And that ex-girlfriend of Kimberly Gilfoyle and that voice and that podcast with the Steve baton feature Just get to give it off to this boy. I forgot about that. No, it's a mess And I think that because he thinks he can like troll Trump or whatever and that people know who he is because he makes a fucking spectacle of himself That he's gonna be the one to lead us forward. Let's run Bernie again Bernie is the only politician No, it's the only one what he feels and I do mean the only one Bernie come on lost coach Sure, no, absolutely. He's the only person who it's actually no bullshit. This is this is another thing about early days last coach that I regret is being a Hillary you've seen I can't believe because I think we were trying really hard to just win. I know but I feel so silly I here's what I'll say the president should I believe the president should have been Elizabeth Warren You and many many of the the smart Brooklyn Gays are aligned in this I'm sure we all like share like a certain Ideology about all this but the fact is like the reason we were Hillary stands is because at the time it was like the Bernie Had to remember you remember 2016. I remember like it was like it got a little thick there with like the way people were talking on the Bernie side And it was misogynist again. It was tough and I think at the time there was a very girl bossy like that was in a Corish like hey, right don't talk like that. We're gonna crash the grassy like girl and I pull my hair back check my nails It was a very that and so I don't I don't I don't look back in regrets because we were part of the culture we're part of Should we have listened to the populist message all along? Is that ultimately what would work for them? Yes It's not going to be Gavin Newsom and what any time a politician is making it too obviously about themselves I'm already don't waste your money sending to Jasmine Crockett do not do it I must agree don't do it. Don't you're gonna waste your money take it from someone who sent Sarah Gideon like a ton of money in Maine Like just don't do it. Don't waste your money Don't do it. It's hard enough to come by Another day I remember 2016. Well, I was reminded of it in heated rivalry That was the year that Boston won. I don't know. Yeah, hard to keep track of the sports And by the way, I am not being like fatalist about the Giving us a wide open opportunity here. Let's not flop by putting up What they said what everyone said they hated in the beginning, which is an establishment like California Democrat like it doesn't work who is doing it in the same way that like They've all been doing it where it's always failed where it's like like Colbert was asking point blank Like will you run for president? He's like that's not my focus right now. And by the way that is a version of his voice That's like sounds like crystal clear Get a fucking surgeon It's just it's so sick and how come who is not telling him this? You what if you get hired to be part of I should be his ramen annual I would get him together You what you guys don't know is I'm ramen manual In like a country gay way. Oh And then you're gonna be mayor of Chicago Is he mayor? I think he was he was I don't know. I know he was like Obama's chief of staff, right? And he was like known as being like a real dick, but like he got shit done Chief of staff is such an interesting position. I love it. Did you read that Susie Wiles article? No, all that was to Okay, I'm I've been in my politics back. I am see this is me like I'm getting off my spaceship And then like I am ready to touch Things in the world that I've been away from Well, does that make sense? Okay. Yes Let me just qualify the Jasmine Crockett thing She's not gonna win a Senate seat in Texas you guys like if Beto O'Rourke couldn't do it like Jasmine Crockett It's not gonna do it. She isn't and it's the re it's nothing against her It's just that she is a politician and that she is like You know like Very well defined already and I think it's my opinion that we are gonna need someone who is less defined at this moment That then rises up like I'm interested in this talent Rico guy from Texas. Oh, I don't know him I'm just interested in him. I'm like oh, I haven't seen him before It would be hard for them to define him as anything other than what he is With just like a rising democratic politician from someplace like Texas Who is like yes speaking a little bit to the middle, but at least he's someone that like we can't define already You know what I mean? Like Gavin Newsom is defined. Yeah. I believe Jasmine Crockett is defined. Yeah like I'm just trying to win here and I really feel differently than we did in 2016 like the way to win now is to like go with the energy I did just get a text from the people who helped me write her into a sketch Who? Trisha Paites is mulling around for Congress. I Think I'm gonna say as a as as I feel like Trisha. You don't have to do it Just you don't worry about it. Who told you this? I'm seeing on Twitter That Trisha Paites is mulling around for Congress lives in West like village So would put her in collision course with Julia Brownlee unless she is oh, I have my block on my Twitter But she Trisha you don't have to do that Don't have to do that Authentic we're we're we're back to being authentic. We're back to being authentic. Oh god. Yeah Oh, I love it. They said we were done. They said we And now next week Robyn's gonna come in and they're gonna be like why are they kissing Robyn's ass Here's why we're kissing Robyn's ass Because she's a pop culture icon and I can say with it with already we're gonna kiss her ass And it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be great. It's still gonna be a face like cherry It's gonna be a free show with 20 minutes of ads that you can fast forward through But by the way, we apologize about the ads and we've made changes. We're figuring that out also Last culture is this is so it's all just them talking to celebrities. We've had like friends on the show like the like all like all the cute Everything it's down. It's like all the criticism. I'm like, but what about this? It's like it's easily disproven. I like It's like we'll have what I don't care guys. Let us do like let us do the show our way Okay, and it's yeah, I mean let us cook and also like it's it's just that we are Like if we're not doing it exactly like this. It's just because we wanted to make sure that that the show was released and we had We weren't just gonna go off in December like my my least favorite thing is when they dragged us for doing three episodes in one day They were like I can't believe they would ever do three episodes in one day. You mean work for eight hours straight Yeah, I'm sorry that doesn't your craze jive with your ethics. I don't understand why that's an issue and then they go Well, Matt should have at least changed his shirt fuck off. I was like I put on a different over shirt. You asshole Leave me alone or else or else this is the last time this is truly this is the last the last time all year we're gonna be addressing this No, because this and this has been so cathartic This actually is called exit interview parentheses. The cathartic episode because I am never looking at this again And I swear to God mark my words wait, we should really do this my my words should get brick I have two bricks at my house and there's also Opal which I love what's Opalite? It's an app that blocks things for you, but if you want it, you know if you want to Take a break you can take a break throughout the day, which I do or It'll ask you if you're sure you want to take a break and then it'll present you if you want like a math puzzle I puzzle that'll give you a quick dopamine hit and then it's like see you got your dopamine hit Do you still want to take a break? It's it's cute. It's like yeah, it's it's really getting in the way of like you like mindlessly scrolling Yeah, and they love to do less of oh absolutely when we all I think but I think there's like a I think there's like a thing now where it's like This is again like the comment or survivorship thing. It's like anyone who like Has some sense of like self-protection is like Weaning off of the phone and and and their own meaningful way I mean in an era when so much is changing anyway. Why not change this one? Totally. I'm like I just remember the day when like I left Facebook just sort of cold turkey and I quit smoking cold turkey You did huh? I because I would this is this is my thing like I tell this I know this is good. I got a suite at the Chelsea hotel Um, you do that's like a customary thing you do at the end of the season I've done it once before with Celeste and Sarah, but I got it for myself and like I had friends over me We had fun and then I just had like two days to myself the Chelsea hotel and then they got me the balcony suite Oh, which is like like the only sort of balcony that like like Looks the hotel Chelsea sign and so then like someone left like a pack of cigarettes And I like smoked I smoked one on the balcony and then I like looked up like right before I was gonna check out and I was like This would be a chic place to just quit smoking After I finished SNL I'm at the hotel Chelsea I'm on the balcony This is the last one. I've since had like cigarettes. I'm just never buying my own again But no, no, no, no, I quit cold turkey. I've since had several no, no, no, so it's not cold turkey But it's like I'm never gonna buy my own cigarettes ever again That is my thing and I get to I get to have one like if I've like had a couple drinks like you remember the deal we made years ago If I would quit smoking if you got if you were in therapy and now you were it's so it's so grossly - Inequitable that I am ready to be honest. - I have just seen, unfortunately, up close. - What happens when you don't-- - What happens when smoking and vaping gets out of hands. - Yep. - And I would tell everyone that as a person that's had a first-hand account, do not fuck with it. - And it has nothing to do with anything, but the smoking and the vaping that I'm talking about. And I promise you, your life will be better without it, 100%. - Because think about it. Think about vaping. Think about how dumb it is. - Not that you vape, but it's you sucking on a machine. Who here does it? - Show yourself. - You're very afraid to come forward. - A 14-year-old was doing it next to me on the train, I was like, don't do it on the train. - He'll be dead, but just tell him he'll be dead by 20. - Oh God. - What? He will. He will. - Anyway, if you're vaping, you're gonna be dead. - I've got, I haven't, I don't think so, honey. - Of course you do. - We've been here two hours, let's, should we split the episode into two? - No. - No, no. - No, it's just on this. - All right, this is the biggest of a gonzo. This is Bowen Yangs. I always go to the compass when I mean to go to the timer. - That's okay. - This is Bowen Yangs. I don't think so. - No. - I don't think so many fries for the table. This is a myth that it's something that everyone loves. Think about it. Everyone's like, yes, fries for the table. Does it ever get fucking finished? It's a huge waste. You get a little potato confetti sitting in a fucking cone the end of the night. No one's touching it after five minutes. It's completely gone. You have a full cup of aioli there. 'Cause guess what, aioli also fucking sucks. No one in the Western hemisphere cares for it. Aioli contains multitudes. - 30 seconds. - It's ketchup all the way. Don't even bother with the aioli with the mayonnaise. This is, we're in America. As unpatriotic as I might be right now, I still care about that with our Olympics vodka. - Hatch up. - 50 seconds. - Over mayo, aioli. Fries for the table, it's a lie. It's like, we all think we're all on board for it and then no one fucking touches it by the end. - Five seconds. - I don't know, let's just get real. Let's get real in 2026, okay? Fries for the table, it's just a myth. No one cares. - That's one minute. What's, I, I ask me anything. - I will. I'm just gathering my thoughts. - What are you talking about? - It is a fantasy. It is, it is in theory. - Some of the best films are. - Yes. But in theory, Fries for the table makes total sense, right? Oh, everyone's gonna nibble on Fries. No one's touching it within five minutes. Can I ask you a question? - Of it hitting the table, no one is touching the Fries after five minutes. Everyone's like, oh yes, for, oh, such a good idea. No one gives a shit after five minutes. - Can I ask you a question? But first, can I say one thing? - Yeah. - And it's a real culture. - Umami, more like udadi. That's a real culture number three. - I say that because ketchup is umami. - What about this two orders of fries for the table? - No, so waste. I'm saying even one order, but can I ask you a question? Do you think that do you think that the reason why one batch of fries doesn't get everyone's too shy? - It's because everyone's like, oh, I'm not gonna put my hand in the one batch of fries. Whereas, if just, if say it's a party of four, right? Instead of one group of fries in them, because here's the thing, I think we can all agree that everyone wants fries. - Yes. - Okay, starting there. - Order your own fries. - No, that's too much. - 'Cause this, Matt, I'm telling you. - Four orders of fries on the table? - I'm telling you, Matt. I've been through money, I've shut up. I've bought enough, I've paid for enough tables at the SNL after party 'cause that's something we had to do. They still have to do. I've had to pay for so many fries for the tables. I've seen it, I've seen it. This is, I'm practically from experience, talking about how you could teach a college seminar on this. - I could teach a college seminar on this. A media study seminar on fries to the table being sort of a societal ideal that never really gets fully enjoyed. That's it, I'm just saying, I've seen, I've so many data points about this. Oh, there's another half full thing of fries. - Yeah. - That was supposed to be for everybody. - I just feel like it would be a shame for there to be no fries. - Oh, and I think everyone ordering their own fries is too much. One person orders their own fries, they're not gonna finish all of them, and then that invites other people that's able to be like, "Can I have some of your fries, Matt?" And you'll be like, "Of course." And then those get finished. - I guess I'd rather that already be an assumed fact that of course you can have some of these fries because they're everyone's fries. Also, maybe you're just not dining with the right people. Also, you don't talk about the people I dine with. - I will talk about the people you dine with. I just dine with you the other night. - And how was that experience? - Lovely. - You had some nasty things to say about Aoli. - Yeah, I don't care for it. I only care about mayonnaise if it's used to help toast a grilled cheese. - Is Aoli mayonnaise? I hadn't really thought about that. - Basically. - Huh. - Yeah, it's like Aggie. Okay. - I'm about Dijon mustard. - I love Dijon mustard. You're gonna be wishing there was fries on the table to have with some of those. - No. I like Dijon when it's in a sandwich. I like Dijon when it's my last name. - Matt Dijon. - I love it. - Remember when my first dragname? - Iran Dijon. - Iran Dijon. - From the Middle East. - She was spicy and unstable, just like my borders. This was back in the day when you could be a little, you could be a little problematic 'cause no one was listening. (laughing) Anna, how does that make you feel? - She's okay with it. - In Sha'la, you're okay with it. - Don't say in Sha'la. - I'm allowed to say in Sha'la. Stude green told me I could. And then I said it in front of Mietra and she wasn't so strong. (laughing) - But in Sha'la, you'll all let me get away with it at home. - The readers. - The readers. - Well, this was a fantastic episode. - I thought so. - Thank you for getting me to cry, bitch. - I cried too. - We both cried. - This was an emotional rollercoaster. - A cathartic, at least. - The cathartic episode. - Exit interview. Hasht. - Oh, not Hashtag. - The parentheses. - No real edits. - I think just the pickups that I, you know, have. - I will tell you I have one edit after we end. And we end every episode with a song. ♪ All the things you said ♪ ♪ All the things you said ♪ ♪ Running through my head ♪ ♪ Running through my head ♪ ♪ Running through my head ♪ - Text in if you think we should be Ilya and Connor. - Shame. - Shame. - Connor is plays Ilya. Should we be them probably? - Yes, we will. - But you be the white one. - I'll be the white one. - And I'll be the bottom. - Oh my God, can you imagine seven years without ever changing your haircut, like those boys anyway? - Wait. - Bye. - Wow, they never did. (laughing) - "Lost Culture East" is the production by Will Ferrell's big money players in my heart radio podcasts. - "Created and Hosted" by Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. - "Executive Produced" by Anna Hosniay and "Produced" by Becca Ramos. - "Edited and Mixed" by Doug Bain. - And our music is by Henry Comersky. (upbeat music) - Your body is always giving you signals. - It's all just a joke. - I'm Bridget Armstrong, back with season two of the podcast, "Curse of Miss America." We're talking to participants, whistleblowers, and people who say Miss America didn't live up to their promises. - He looks at me and goes, "You don't look like you suffered in the eating disorder." - I never received a scholarship and I need to pay for my student loans. - Maybe this is the meta question for the podcast. If you're interested in blackmail, love bombing, cloning yourself, or getting revenge, then we've got a little something, something for a dastardly individual like you. - Listen to get worse with Kyle Pru on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. - I'm Hamza, and I'm Martin. - And we're the hosts of Out of Character, the funniest podcast in the entire world. (singing in foreign language) - I like that, it's a good way to promote ourselves. We are two funny guys having fun and enjoying ourselves, and we just know how to have fun, unlike anyone else. If you guys like fun conversations, hot takes, what else? - Not too hot, just kind of lukewarm takes to get your mind thinking a little bit. - Listen to Out of Character on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. - This is an iHeart Podcast, guaranteed human.