EXCLUSIVE: Nancy Guthrie

Hi, Grime junkies, I'm your host Ashley Flowers, and I'm dropping in your feed today with a special guest. Hi, everyone. I'm Brianna Whitney. For those of you who don't follow us on social or catch our content on YouTube, first of all, you've been missing out. But second and importantly, you might not know that Brianna has recently joined the crime junkie team as our breaking news reporter. We have you guys know this, an amazing team of investigative journalists who helped me bring you our weekly episodes, each one of those takes months to produce. And we need a lot of information to cover a story in full length, nine times at a 10, a lot of investigation means the case has been open or worked for a long time. But I am also constantly following breaking stories, like I know you guys are too. I see you in my DMs, I see you in our Facebook group. You want to talk and hear about stories that are unfolding in real time. Well, prayers answered, Brianna now does a weekly episode on YouTube covering true crime cases that are making headlines. I am crashing her episode today because this is one that I had to talk about with you. Now regularly your episodes are very much kind of like my solo episodes and like a weirdly people think we kind of look alike, which I hadn't planned, but like you'll be a comforting presence to our crime junkies. Now you guys I have been following Brianna for years, almost like the same time I started podcasting you started Arizona family, right? And deep tracks, I got a personal recommendation about how amazing that you were from Sarah Turnie, who told me that if I ever got the chance to hire you, I should jump on it. It took me a couple of years to getcha, but I'm so happy that you're here now. And I'm especially grateful that you're here right now because at the six month anniversary of Nancy Guthrie's kidnapping, when all eyes are on this case, you have the inside track. You're like the person I lived in. This is a lived experience for me on this case. Yeah. So I'm obviously excited to be at crime junkie and this happened right before I got here, but the reason I have the inside track on everything is because I was reporting at an Arizona news station. And it was like one of those alerts that came in where it's like Nancy Guthrie is missing the semantic Guthrie's mom, there's like a search for her, and I literally remember me and my friends texting about it like, this is odd, like, okay, but people go missing all the time, right? This is weird. Like, they'll probably find her strange. We were up in Phoenix. This is happening in Tucson. And I never could have predicted what would unfold from there. I lived the Nancy Guthrie investigation pretty much 24/7 for about a month. And I learned what was in those ransom notes that were sent to the media outlets because they were sent to a new station that was part of the company that I worked for. And so that shaped kind of our knowledge of reporting behind the scenes. And now information has started to trickle out. People are learning a little bit more about what they say, but I'm at the point now where it has been six months. Most of what has happened on the investigative side of things happened in the first month really. Yeah. Of the case unfolding. Yes, I know there's a lot going on behind the scenes, but there's all these, like, inside sources that are reporting this and reporting that it's hard because there's been no press conference since week one, which is insane. I know. Yeah. But not kind of it. I mean, it is crazy to me still that there hasn't been more. But at this point, I'm like, okay, there's inside sources coming out with things, but I know this stuff. And I think the crime junkies want to hear it too. There's been no rest. She's still missing. So I thought, why don't we just get into everything that the ransom notes say? I want to tell you about what happened behind the scenes with authorities, with the sheriff. And then why I think people also really want to know is like, how could this happen? Is there, you know, a possibility of what we could know, right? And there's this retired chief investigator, I interviewed, who has this, what I think, a very credible theory as to how this plan unfolded, how it was carried out and why we might be at this place where there's kind of this stall, right? We don't know where Nancy is. So where do you go from here? And we really dive deep into it. And I know the crime junkies are going to want to hear this. Okay. I actually, I think I'm a little flying in the dark a bit, but like, I don't know some of this. I think we have a lot to cover. Let's just dive in. Let's do it. I want to talk about literally everything. And I know the crime junkies want to learn all the new stuff. I mean, we're going to learn the new stuff. Right. I want to tell you the new stuff. Let me talk about all of the details, like the wording, the verbiage in the ransom notes, why that all plays into this brand new theory that I think actually has legs from a chief investigator who lives in Colorado. And those are two really important things. But also the reason why we're here, some of this is the fact that there was so much going on behind the scenes with law enforcement, the way that this was unfolding, some missteps, but even things that were said to me, to my team, that I've never talked about before, but I think just shows the public why this case has somewhat unfolded the way it has. And there's been a lot of frustration. And I get it. Frustration from me behind the scenes too. So those three things we're going to get into from everybody. And I know you're learning this in real time too. But I kind of want to just take the crime junkies through what we know, what unfolded in the first week and the first month. Yeah. For the people like, if just in case they've been living under Iraq for the last six months, like give us the lay of the land or like we are, we've been somewhere else like reorient us in this case. Okay. So it's the end of January, right? It's winter, Arizona. And I remember the news alerts coming into our phones, like Savannah Guthrie's mom missing in Tucson, thought it was weird. And I was texting my friends, we were all like, what weird, this is weird, right? But it was, I remember thinking because, you know, she was older. I remember thinking how she's probably like it's probably like a medical thing or everyone's like, oh, I remember people talking like she wandered off, whatever. Right. And it was also a Sunday. So there was like conversation that, you know, maybe she was just out in Dragon Walk, got confused. Something like that. And we didn't quite know where her cognition was at that time. But also how many times have we seen this that a vulnerable adult goes missing and they're confused. They're found something like that. So at first, which kind of like monitoring, it's weird. Yeah. It's weird. Check it out. Side note, I had also just gotten knee surgery. So I was like barely mobile. So I was not even in a place to go to Tucson yet if there was something more. So I was monitoring it literally from my couch and I'm like, yeah. So there's just a lot going on. We get to the new station the next day and it's off. Like there's something off, like the vibes in the station or vibes with the investigation. The sheriff had come out really late at night. There was this like impromptu press conference outside of Nancy got threes home. It was late. Like it was on cell phones. They had streamed it. You could barely hear it. It was just odd. It was almost like very haphazard. Yeah. And that's odd for something like that. Trying to get ahead of something. I think so. And so, we start looking into this more and at this point, they're like, this is an investigation. We still don't have a lot of details. And then we learn that there might be evidence that she was taken. That's where the investigation really changed in terms of, this isn't just wandering off. There's something more here. Then we learned that Savannah had come back from New York. Obviously, she hosts the Today Show. And just knowing what was going on now, this is, this is a weird. So we started looking more into the coverage. And at this point, now they confirmed that she was taken from her home in the early morning hours of February 1st. So just that becomes important in the timeline to kind of keep in mind. The scene is, is odd. I got there the second day and like actually to her house, to her house, yes. And just to orient people to, this isn't like a super suburban neighborhood where the houses are close together. They're close to the street. Tucson is very vast. It's very desert. And this is the Catalina foothills area. So these homes are older. They're set back further in the lots. There's a lot of desert brush. There's a lot of cacti. So when it's dark in that neighborhood, it is dark. There's no street lights. And if you have cameras on your home, they may not be able to see what's on the street. It's not only because it's pitch black, but also because they're far away from where the street is. Yeah. So knowing that she was possibly taken in the middle of the night, it was like, okay, that could be something you could get a weight with in this neighborhood. But weird factor number one when we got out there was the fact that you could walk up to the scene. And I remember thinking this was odd, the Pima County could walk up to the scene. I literally mean the Sheriff's Department gave us the okay at that time to walk up to the driveway and look at the front door. And that became a key in the investigation because there were drops of blood on the front porch. And you could very much see what it was. And all of the sudden us reporters who were out there are like, okay, something's off here. And not just that. Did they not see the blood? They did. They did. But at that point, the Pima County Sheriff's Department said we're investigating. We've collected all the evidence. The scene is secure. So it's clear. I said, just don't go into the back door. Secure release. Like they were released. They did release the scene. Okay. All they had basically at that point was Sheriff's deputies were kind of like going up and down the street at this point. Now there's a lot of media that had gotten there. They just said, don't go to the backyard, which we wouldn't do anyway. So I remember thinking that was kind of odd, like why are we allowed on this already? If she's still missing, it's only been a couple days at this point. But the other key thing about that was the nest video camera was gone. And obviously you're thinking, well, what did that catch, right? And was it stored in like a cloud where they could access the video? So that's all going on. And then the ransom notes happen. This is a weird case, right? Like, this is all weird. We've got a grandma who's abducted or taken. We have blood on the ground. We have a missing surveillance camera. And then these ransom notes start coming in. And it was like, how soon after, just a few days, just a few days, it was in the first week of the investigation. So like, this is unfolding like each day, there's something new, right? So just a couple days later, ransom notes go into TMZ and then the Tucson station, it was the sister station to the Phoenix station I worked out. And that upped the ante of everything because it gave two deadlines demanding millions of dollars in Bitcoin. So now you're like, okay, wait, what's going to go on? And I want to get into what the ransom notes said, the ransom note number one and two. But that's what a press conference was called. The only press conference, by the way, that we've had in this investigation since it all started. And that's where we learned there was a five PM deadline on that Thursday. There was another deadline on that Monday. And it started with four million dollars in Bitcoin demanded for day one. And if you didn't meet that, then it was six million dollars demanded for the next one. So there's a ticking time clock as to what's going to happen. Whoa. Yeah. I want to, I want to talk about the ransom note with you. And I'm going through my computer just to make sure that I get this all right. There's been bits of this that have been talked about online. There's been parts that people know, but I don't think they know all of the verbage. And I think this is very important because it sets the tone for what was about to come. So I'm going to read you part of it. This is how it started. Hello, Savannah. We have your mother Nancy. She is safe but scared. She will be held for ransom and once payment is received, she will be released unharmed. We will be holding her for a maximum of seven days. So they go on then to demand the millions of dollars and they give the two deadlines. But what is key here, I think, is that the money was demanded in USD. So USD. Typically, if this is coming from somebody here, you don't say that. You don't say that, which is key for this theory we're going to talk about later in the episode. And so they're saying they will only hold her for seven days, for seven days, right? Then they get pretty demanding and snarky with how they address Savannah. And mind you, that's also important. They're addressing just Savannah. Yeah. They don't say the Guthrie family. Hello, Savannah. We have your mother. We always wondered if it was like about who she was or did they just happen upon her not knowing that it was going to garner this attention. But it seems like this was about, or they at least like not necessarily about Savannah, but they knew Savannah had money at a minimum. I think, so Savannah, I believe, was obviously the target of where we would get the money from if you were the person who was targeting this. And I think there's a reason maybe why they targeted her. I'll get into that too. Okay. I'm going to read you three more parts of this ransom note, and then we'll kind of talk about it after. So this is what it went on to say. Once payment is received, the Bitcoin address below, she will be released within 12 hours of deposit to a safe drop off location back in Tucson. If the payment is not received by the last deadline on Monday the 9th at 5 p.m., she will be killed. Your mother is aware of this and her life is in your hands. It is in the best interest of everyone to have this completed as soon as possible. You will not be able to contact me from here on out. There will be no negotiation. If you do not play games, law enforcement will not be able to help you. Oh my God. And then at the very end, they basically give what we learned in the press conference at the time that there was something only the abductor would know, which was she had a white smartwatch that was on the floor near her bed, like at the foot of her bed. And then there was this flood light that was destroyed in the backyard. So those two clues are what gave the FBI kind of the wherewithal to say, "This is not a hoax." At least they didn't think so, or they were investigating it as possibly legitimate. They still are, by the way. Probably also why they kept you guys out of the backyard, right? They don't want anyone reporting. Of course. About the light. And so there was like a Bitcoin wallet and address that was at the bottom of this that would be where you would deposit the funds. And I think something that I took away from reading this right off the bat was that you will not hear from me. They were cutting off communication. It was just like paid. We don't want back and forth. We want money. I told you exactly. The other part that I think is really interesting here because again, we have no idea where Nancy is. When's where she went, where she is? The specific verbiage of once they get the money, she will be released to a safe drop-off location back in Tucson indicating she's not in Tucson. That's what I think. Now could it be right outside Tucson? Very possible. Very early on, people thought that maybe she could have been taken down to Mexico. The border is very close. There it's easy to access. That's possible too. But I mean, this was pretty serious. And I think too, just like taking that tone of like, do not play games, law enforcement will not help you. I mean, can you imagine reading this? Well, I mean, I would imagine they'd have to get out of Tucson. Like they know, again, if they knew who they were abducting, they knew she was Savannah got three's mom. You know that there is going to be a massive police press presence as soon as this happened. Yes. And that comes in. And that at first, you know, they gave that to the FBI, to the authorities, to the Pima County Sheriff's Department. And at that point too, it was kind of where we were learning what the split was between what the Pima County Sheriff's Department was handling and what the FBI was handling. So it seemed that as the investigation unfolded, that kind of got a little blurry. The FBI was definitely not pleased about the scene being released to all of us. Why? Because they needed to go in and check what other evidence there was that possibly could lend itself to what now was coming in digitally. So what ended up really playing out was the Pima County Sheriff's Department was more so in charge of the like, on the ground investigation, the scene itself, kind of that. The FBI was the go to for everything, ransom note, digital tracking, like all of that that you would think the FBI would be involved in and that became key here. So they have this press conference, that's where they reveal these deadlines to us. And we're like, okay, what's going to happen? Are they going to, yeah, what now are they going to put money into this? And at this point now, there's a reward that's also, you know, please come forward for information. February 9th was that like next deadline. And then February 10th is the most pivotal day in the investigation. That is when the nest video camera was released by the FBI. So they had been going through trying to mine what they could, that was on that camera. Shane and I were heading down to Tucson because we had gotten a tip and insider saying, hey, the FBI is going to release this like director Cash Patel's going to put this on his ex account, his Twitter account. That is how they released this video. And so we're like scrolling scrolling, scrolling monitoring monitoring. It's kind of crazy. Like, I know, okay, yeah, right. So I'm like scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, we're on our way to Tucson. The video drops and when I tell you, I'm watching these clips. And it is so brazen, the way that this person gets to the home that it like sent chills down my spot. Like you're looking at this and you're like, oh, oh my god. Like this is what you see in a horror movie. This is not real life. And mind you, and this I've thought this the whole time too. This would be a crazy story, no matter whose grandma this was, right? Like, grandma is abducted. We now have this insane video of this guy who is in a ski mask. He's got like something in his pocket. He's got a backpack and he gets up to the camera like face in the camera and he's got this like shrubbery. He's either trying to like, what is that? People like dissected this video. Oh my god. 10 ways of Sunday. Like it was. Yes. How did he walk? His gate. Could you tell the backpack? The backpack. Yeah. Yeah. So we still don't really know the shrubbery. Some people say it was like try to cover it up, but he knew it was there. Another theory that I've heard is maybe he was using that to try to like get it off the thing. Like use the plants to get it off the whole. Like, oh. Like when you guys went to the to the scene that the first time and you showed up, did you think at all that like the police took the nest cam as part of their evidence collection or was it like clear that somebody like ripped that off first? It was possible, but it seemed odd. Right. It seemed odd because you knew like in this day and age, 2026, right? Like the physical camera, but that's what seems odd about them taking it. Yeah. I don't know. It's like, what's the point of taking it? Everything's in the cloud. Maybe they didn't know. And honestly, and I'm going to get more into this, but like the criminal sophistication of the kid that I was scared out, yeah, it might be a little lower than people think. So we'll get into that, but from now on, I'm going to refer to him as porch guy because that is how he has basically become known on social media is porch guy who's seen in the video, right? This brazen video. Yeah. we only know when he goes in. So we can tell when the camera system was accessed, which was overnight, he goes in, that's then disconnected, still overnight. And then really the last trace of anything we have is when Nancy's pacemaker disconnected shortly after that. So she had a pacemaker. And that was part of this too. Like obviously we're talking about vulnerable and frail as the investigation's unfolding. The FBI and the Pima County Sheriff's Department is like, look, she had a pacemaker, she had a very serious heart condition. She really couldn't walk more than a couple steps on her own. So like, she'd not just up and walk out of her house. And then you're looking at the blood droplets and you're thinking what, I mean, it kind of looked like almost like a bloody nose was dripping. I've also heard that potentially like, was she bleeding from an injury and it dripped off her arm like onto the concrete? The other hope at that point was, well, let's hope that this guy is DNA is in the blood too. And it wasn't. It was just Nancy got three DNA. So you have that. And I thought, looking at the video, I thought, if you were walking in a ski mask, I would know it was you, through and through, right? Like, if you're a friend or you know this person, you're gonna know who they are with the ski mask on or not. You're gonna know the way that they walk. Yeah. And I thought, okay, great, we're getting somewhere. We're gonna figure out who this is. Really quick. - Let's start the clock. - Start the clock. And here we are, six months later. We still don't know who porch guy is, which is crazy. The other thing that was really unsettling about the videos that came out later was that we learned that authorities were like, hey, neighbors, check your surveillance video, not only for the night of the January 31st, into February 1st, but also January 11th. That was weird. And we still don't really know why that is an investigative date, in this case. It is possible that the videos that Cash Patel put out that one of them was actually from a couple weeks before she vanished. And there's been some dissection online of whether that's the case or not. It is possible that porch guy was casing out the area, the house, before he actually carried out the abduction. - Interesting. - So here we are, right? We've, I mean, crazy week, we got abduction, we got ransom note, we got press conference, we've got video, boom, ransom note number two. And ransom note number two had a significantly different tone than ransom note number one. - And by the time you get ransom note number two, have any of the deadlines passed or all of them, or I believe it was in the middle of them. So I think there was still, you were still going to be able to get to the second deadline. - Okay, okay. - But I want to read to you what this said. And I guess actually before I read it, Savannah Guthrie and her siblings had been very outspoken at this point on social media. She was using Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, basically putting out these pleading videos like, we want our mother back, what can we do? Please show us proof of life. Proof of life becomes the huge part of this whole thing, right? If you can show that you have Nancy Guthrie and proof of life, then we'll pay, right? And they eventually offer also over a million dollars. I mean, they want Nancy back. So that's what they're waiting for. But obviously you're not going to willingly put money into a Bitcoin wallet without proof of life that this person actually has Nancy. - Yeah. So ransom note number two, I've actually revealed a lot of the details on our crime junkie social media pages just a couple weeks ago. And the reason why was because inside sources were giving media networks and outlets, like bits and pieces of ransom note number two, they were reporting it and I was like, at this point, people just need to know what it's up. - Yeah. - But for those who haven't heard it, this is the verbage that's in ransom note number two. We did not fully grasp the seriousness of her physical conditions. We never intended to hurt her. That was not our intention. She perished shortly after she was taken. We believe it was heart-related. She is buried in nature now. Nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome. We are truly sorry. And there was a lot of debate back and forth online on whether there was an apology or not. Their 100% was at the very end of this. So obviously the tone has completely changed, right? - Yeah. - And clearly at this point, if these are true, in week one of this investigation, Nancy Guthrie had died. Now obviously they're trying to divert any blame from them, like, hey, it was her health and we didn't know that. So we're not culpable, but sorry. - Sorry, and then goodbye. - Buried in nature. Now, verbage, remember the USD, the USD, right? This is also a weird way of speaking. It's just a little off. And I believe this may be because the person writing the notes is foreign, English is their second language, or they are using a translator to get their point across. We'll get into that in a second. So now you have ransom note number two. We now know behind the scenes is happening, right? But the FBI and PCSD, they were never revealing what ransom note number two said, just that it was received. But Savannah went on to her social media and said, we've received your note. And at this point now, there is a very clear tone change in her too. And the retired investigator I talked to said, it was very much like a hostage negotiator type tone. You could tell that she had worked with the FBI, but at this point now, they're pleading to get Nancy back, no matter if it's dead or alive. Yeah. And you can tell at this point that she's like, we'll do anything to bring her home. That became the hashtag was like, bring her home, no matter what. And I, just personally watching this happen, like reporting on it, I was doing the job that Savannah would typically do on a massive investigation, right? She is a seasoned anchor reporter. For her to have to be the story, heartbreaking, like awful. And I could not imagine the position that she was in, especially because we didn't know if her job was part of this, and she didn't know if her job was part of this. And it was just like heartbreaking to watch these videos. But there was never proof of life. The only thing that ever happened was that there was a very small amount of money put into the Bitcoin wallet that came in in that first ransom note. By authorities, we don't know who put it in there. We can assume that it was authorities and the Guthrie family together, or one of you guys like watching it, or we can monitor it. There's only certain people who can monitor it who have the note. We can monitor it. We saw a very small amount put in. It was like a test with this like attached note that's a contact us we are ready to talk, something along those lines. And nothing else has ever happened though in that ransom note that Bitcoin wallet was never active again, and nothing came of that. So my thought was they're asking for proof of life. Clearly, if you believe these ransom notes are legit, they can't prove proof of life, so like done. But we didn't really know if it was done or not, because we didn't know if the ransom notes were legit either. Yeah. We still don't really know if they're legit. There has been some reporting in the past month. Reuters came out and said that they had this anonymous FBI source that I had said all ransom notes and investigation were fake. Yeah, all of that came out of nowhere. Yeah, and just like a couple weeks ago, a week ago. And the FBI, I mean, I'm like calling the FBI right now. Hey, is this true or not? And mind you, there's these two ransom notes that came in. And then there's the slew of all these notes and emails and things that are coming into namely TMZ that have been reported over the past couple months as well. Like one of them was this email that came in from this guy that was like, I know the kidnapper. I have video of Nancy alive on her last day with the kidnapper. It's on a, like a phone in a secure location. And if you give me a Bitcoin, then I will reveal the safe location. Crazy. I mean, these are just like crazy things. We don't know if that's legit. But we do know that the FBI arrested somebody very quickly early on in the investigation for sending a fake ransom note. So we do know that they're able to determine what is and isn't real pretty quickly. That person has pleaded guilty. So that kind of leads you to believe that if they can deem that to be true. And if they're not saying anything about some of these emails, that they're still looking at these two notes as being credible. What connects the second one to the first one? Came in through the same tip line to the news station. They basically, like, they believe they referenced some of the same things. And it was a different IP address, but sent in the same way with the same kind of tone. So they believe that those were the two that came in from the same person, at this point, that those two are related. Is it possible that they're not sure? But the way that this was sent-- and mind you, too, that's a pretty interesting way to send something through a anonymous tip line to a local news station. It's like a job form. So the way that it sent you, don't see it, but they use different IP address if they couldn't like track it. That's what-- that was part of what was causing the issues as well. So you have those two things happening. At this point, the FBI has come out. And all on the record said that, yes, some ransom notes and some emails we've deemed to be bogus. But there are still some that we are investigating as possibly legitimate in this kidnapping ransom case, which is likely these two that we're talking about. We also don't know what else is coming behind the scenes. And that's what's hard, too, right? We've had no information trickling out. And I think from my perspective, reporting on this, there have been a lot of missteps, like so much so that I'm honestly concerned about if we ever get to an arrest, what the prosecution is going to do to actually try to get justice in the case. Because for one thing, the scene, right? That was bad. And the sheriff, Chris Nanos, did admit-- we probably shouldn't have done that. We probably should have kept it secure. Yeah, I'd say so because my DNA might be on the driveway and the porch. there were a lot of people up and down there. So like, if that's a contaminated scene, in a court of law, that's so wild. I mean, that could really impact everything. It's totally wild. Then you had what felt like this kind of tension between the Sheriff's Department and the FBI, and some of that came to be like where the DNA was sent. So PCSD was using this private lab in Florida, and they were sending stuff there, but the FBI wanted to use their lab and quantum codes, like a premier lab that they can try to get things back quickly, and there was like this kind of like chatter online of like, okay, so and so doesn't know where this DNA is being sent. We wanted to send it here, but you sent it there, and they had to address that, and they'd be like, it's fine, but like it, but it clearly is not fine. It was not fine. So you had that on the matter of fighting, like, right. And then let's talk about some of what was said to me and my team behind the scenes from the Sheriff. So I haven't talked about this before, but I think this kind of highlights how this all went. To clarify where the DNA evidence was going was of the utmost importance to accurate reporting, right? Yes. In Arizona, the nightly newscasts are on at 10 p.m. That is standard across the board. And as we all know in this job, the news doesn't sleep, right? But it's especially not sleeping in the biggest investigation in the country at 10 p.m., which is not even that late. So we were getting ready for the evening newscast, and this is among where the DNA evidence is going, what are you testing, how are you testing it? And my team sent a text to Sheriff Chris Nannos just trying to clarify what was going on with the DNA evidence so that we could be right before the newscast. So this was around 9.50 that the text was sent to him. And this is like, what a week out. Yeah, this is within February. So it was like a week within like one or two weeks since she was missing. Still, we're talking like top lead story headlines across every news network, every night at this point still. So my team text him trying to get clarification. We immediately received a text back from him. That said, did you happen to notice the time? Give it a rest. What? When I tell you, we looked at that text. I looked at the text and I was like, you've got to be joking. First off, first off, that text took more effort than simply a no or a yes. Yes, or don't respond. And to the point of timing, this isn't a year out and you're bothering him with his family. Like, I honestly kind of expect you to be on it at 10 p.m. a week out if we still haven't found her. 100% I bet the Guthrie family did too. I mean, I'm thinking like Savannah's not resting. They're not resting. We're not resting. That just was such a snarky response to give it a rest. Like, she's missing. And this is like your job. This is your job. And there was something that the sheriff said too in that press conference. Basically said, like, you guys hold me to all my words. Like, yes, you're the sheriff of the most important or maybe based true crime investigation missing person that is happening in real time in this country. Yes, we are holding you to your words because what you say is exceptionally important. And in that timeframe, everything just went downhill. Like on social media, people were fed up with sheriff Nannos. He wouldn't do a press conference, but then he was doing like individual one-off interviews, including with me, but saying different things in these different interviews. So then you'd have to go back to like the public information officers of the sheriff's department and be like, hey, he said this in this interview, but didn't say that in this, is that true? And it would be like, you know, either we can't confirm or we can't comment. So then that just like muddied the waters even more, right? With what was true and what wasn't. I just feel like factually we needed to get the right information out there. Did he just not know what was going on or like what's he, what was that? Great question. I still honestly don't know. And there are things that have been said from him throughout these different interviews that I think he just kind of says and like it's not backed up by fact. Somewhat recently he went onto a new station and said that there have been like arrests, there haven't. There's been no arrests. And that's kind of the other part of this too. And we're talking about the missteps and just like the weirdness of it all. In that first month, there were three people detained in the case. One of them was a door-dash driver that lived south, like an hour south of Nancy Guthrie's home. His name was Carlos. He was detained, questioned and then released. And then there were two other people who were detained in the case. Mary and Luke daily. Mary was Luke's mom. They lived pretty close to Nancy Guthrie's home. I interviewed them both. And they still don't understand why they were detained. We still don't know why they were detained. Many people online still believe that Luke daily looks like Porch Guy. I mean, they have online court of public opinion have decided that Luke could be Porch Guy, but Luke is adamant that he is not. We still don't know why these three people were detained. They were all released. There's been nothing more that has come of that. And there has been, as far as we know, no other detainments. And I think we would know that if there was in the case. So that's like where this kind of ends because there's nothing more. We know that DNA is being tested. More DNA? Yes. So something that also, I'm remembering this as I'm going with you. I don't know if you heard about this, but the black glove of it all was like a big part of this. So there was, obviously the doctor was wearing gloves. So that became like a key. What kind of gloves are these? Let's look for gloves. There was a black glove that was found on the side of the road, about two miles ish from Nancy's home that was tested. And that came back unrelated. It came back to DNA of a nearby restaurant worker. OK. But then there was other gloves found near Nancy's home. Like everyone was looking for gloves. Like a scavenger hunt for gloves. And the sheriff basically came out and was like, oh, well, our investigators disposed of gloves on the ground. Why are we just doing here? I don't know. And I'm like, why would we do that if we're looking for gloves? Why are we just disposing of the gloves on the ground? Yes, which one are ours? Guess which one are ours? And even some of them, they were blue. It's like, OK, blue, black glove. Let's just not put them on the ground, right? Let's not let's not. So the gloves part of this investigation hasn't really gone anywhere. But we do know that they were able to get mixed DNA from inside Nancy's home. What I mean by that is like there are multiple profiles in this DNA sample, whatever it is, wherever it was from. Whatever it is, wherever it's from. And so they need to separate that. And part of that becomes, obviously, we expect Nancy's DNA to be part of that. She's in the home. But who else's DNA could be part of that? Perhaps her daughter, her son-in-law-- Friend to visit it. Friend to visit it. That's not necessarily the smoking gun. It could be the thing, but it could mean a number of things that are completely unrelated. Right, exactly. So they need to separate that DNA and see if there's an unknown profile that matches somebody who shouldn't belong in the home and then do genetic genealogy on that. We haven't heard anything more on that. I actually thought we were going to hear more about the DNA by this point, and we haven't. So that's ongoing. I'd be surprised. I mean, especially with mixed samples, I know that getting a sample that's good enough to do genealogy or enough is very difficult. And even if they get to that point, then you have to contend with the fact that, depending on who our perpetrator is, there are so many populations of people who are underrepresented in these databases that take forever to find if you find them at all. And that can very well be the case. So that should still be going on behind the scenes. We haven't gotten an update on that. And then there's really been tips or just random things that have come in throughout the couple of months that are like, oh, a tip came into this group in Mexico that Nancy was buried at these unmarked graves. And they sent investigators out there. They didn't find her. That didn't come to fruition. Then you've got TMZ receiving these emails. So there are last known days or on this phone and this video and the secure location. And if you give me this, you get there. And obviously, nothing's come of that either. And that's kind of where this all stops. Like, this is where we're at now. Six months later, I cannot believe that this is where we're at. With no answers, no arrests. And we don't really know what exactly is happening behind the scenes or what's come in besides the fact that they're DNA testing. Wow. So why did this happen, right? Like, yeah, what do we think? And that's where I recently interviewed a former chief investigator who has come up with what I think is a very educated, well-thought-out, well-researched theory. There's been a little bit of chatter of it online. She's talked about it. She's kind of put out this paper on it. But I really wanted to dive in deep with her. And based on everything we know, I think that this could be very plausible. Again, anything could be the case, right? Like, we don't know where Nancy is. We don't know what's happening. But why did this come to fruition in the first place, right? Did this investigator have the information about the notes that we all have now? She had some of them. And the US dollar is actually going to be the key here. So her name's Lisa Miller. She's out of Colorado. She's been featured on a lot of different news programs, true crime. She is a seasoned investigator. Now she works as a consultant. And so she basically put together this like pages long, sub-stack report or paper on what she believes happened here. And weirdly enough, right after she did that, this cybersecurity firm actually came out and categorized the Nancy Guthrie abduction as the same thing she had talked about. So that even made it feel more credible. So let's talk about it. Lisa Miller believes that this is something called an evolved wrench attack. What is it? - It's an unavoidable, I don't even know what it is. - What a rent attack is. - So a rent attack basically means that you are targeting somebody's digital assets, namely Bitcoin cryptocurrency. Like they are wealthy in this, you are targeting them for that to extract that from them. Now, Nancy got three. Nobody is saying that she was just had all this Bitcoin or cryptocurrency, right? So that's what kind of makes this evolved. The thought here was that she was the target. The vulnerable target and Savannah basically was like, we're gonna leverage Savannah's wealth by abducting Nancy Guthrie to extort the money that we want in cryptocurrency. - Okay. - So following, presumably 'cause that's like the most untraceable or? - Yeah, that's right, yeah. Way less traceable than any sort of other money transaction. So what are the factors here? Savannah Guthrie, public figure, right? We know that she likely does financially well, given her job and what she does. But there's two things that I think might have been the reason why this was the Savannah and Nancy Guthrie target itself. One, Savannah's always public, but she had been even more publicly because she was getting ready for coverage of the Olympics. So there was a ton of promo and press on NBC that was going on about that. But they also had recently done these segments, the anchors of this today show where they were going to their hometowns in November. And it's actually a really cool and cute story. I just rewatched it last night, like eight minutes of Savannah going back to Tucson, Arizona, checking out University of Arizona where she was, you know, looked at sorority where she ended up getting her law degree. Like she talked about all of that and then why she loves Tucson so much. And one of her favorite places in Tucson is this restaurant called El Charo. And in the piece, she goes there with her mom, Nancy, and her sister. And I mean, you can like feel the love. It's like so palpable as to like this family loves each other. And they're talking about the history. And Savannah's basically asking her mom in this like, you know, what made you stay in Tucson? And she was just like, I just love it. Like the pace of life, it's slower. She wants to watch the Huffleena run. And like there had been neighbors that had posted on social media too. Like she installed cameras at her home because she wanted to see the wildlife. Like she wanted to see what Tucson, Arizona has to offer as your home. And it's quick, like she's not in it a ton. But you can see she's there. You can see why she loves it. Savannah's kind of showing the remote, you know, vast nature. We don't know if that's something that these people saw. But it was something that her mom was recently featured in that showed them like at home in Tucson. And her mom is, you know, a vulnerable adult. So she had been very visible, right? Like that's what anybody would have seen Savannah on more. So there's basically two parts of this theory that come to play here. One, I'm going to refer to him or her as the mastermind. There's the mastermind who is likely overseas or foreign who comes up with the digital plan of it all. Basically the sophisticated plan of the communication of how they're going to extort this ransom and cryptocurrency. They're highly sophisticated. That's how you know to use the different IP addresses. They're using like this encrypted tip line. This is somebody who knows what they're doing, right? Like this is something that they do. So you have the mastermind that comes up with the plan. And then according to this theory, they hire what we would call like the local actor or the local recruits, porch guy. So porch guy likely was hired by the mastermind, somebody who's local to either Southern Arizona, perhaps Mexico. And it could have been him and like maybe another person, right? We don't know if there was like a getaway car or somebody else that helped pull off like the physical abduction. Over and over and over again while reporting on this story, I had so many experts like retired FBI agents, retired homicide detectives tell me that based on the video and the way that this abduction was carried out, that this person was not a skilled criminal. Like not sophisticated. This was a sloppy job, X, Y and Z. And I kept thinking, okay. But like they pulled it off. Yeah, right. So how sloppy is it? And I think that that's where these like two people come into play, that the brains of it all is coming from the mastermind, the porch person, the abductor themselves is just like being paid to carry out this job. And maybe they aren't super skilled, but they did enough to pull this off, right? So it all starts as planned. The ransom notice sent. Here's your deadlines. Nancy's been taken. We're gonna get the money. And then the plan completely fails because they didn't account for her health condition. And I don't think that they accounted for her to die. And that's where this all kind of starts to fall off the tracks. So you've got the got three family begging for proof of life. They can't give it. So now you've got the ransom note for the mastermind, who's like pretty cold, right? Like removed. This person is likely thousands of miles away. Does this, you know, for like a living? And was just like, we didn't plan for that. Sorry. Out, right? Now, porch guy, left with Nancy, has to find somewhere to bury her remains and try to get out unscathed. So you've got this problem of now what do you do? Because if the mastermind had left, like kind of left the investigation, like ties didn't work out moving on. And porch guy or whoever is involved in the actual physical abduction of it, buried her remains somewhere in fled. Where do you go? Like you're stuck. And part of the problem here is the fact that if the mastermind is foreign, right? And what leads us to believe that is that's a person writing these ransom notes. That's why they're-- - USD, USD, perished. Like things you maybe almost would either use a translator, perhaps like chat GPT, I don't even know. Like things that you and I would not say to each other is likely coming from this person that is concocting this whole plan from far. Now, it's possible the FBI knows more than we know and they may be are able to figure out like where this person is. But it is also possible that wherever this person is, doesn't it subpoena or extradite to the United States of America? So that could be a huge problem with like access that the FBI could get. It's also possible that they've encrypted everything and there is just no trace of that. So now the question according to this theory and with Lisa Miller who shared this with me was like, so now what? If the mastermind and porch guy have cut ties with each other, the mastermind may know why the plan was concocted, how they came up with Nancy and Savannah, what they wanted to do with it, but they may not know where Nancy is now, her remains. And porch guy may know where Nancy is now. It's likely that that person has fled either possibly to Mexico, knows where Nancy is, isn't telling mastermind and doesn't really know why the plan ever came to fruition in the first place. Porch guy may not even know the identity of the mastermind, just getting paid for a job. So if they're not communicating, you're sold. Who sends the second note in this scenario? Mastermind. All communication in this theory is coming from the mastermind themselves. All the communication. If he doesn't care though, like why bother, why take the risk, why bother sending that? The second one or the first one? The second one. I think because he wanted to like, done, cut ties, this isn't gonna work. Oh. You won't hear from me again. Like, right, like you're not gonna hear from me again. We're done here. And kind of like put that like closing chapter. And if that is the case, that ended in the first week of this investigation. Everything. She'd passed. This would be the last communication. So now it's like, okay, so how do we move forward? According to this theory, for there to be any movement, you would need there to be incentive for the mastermind and or Porch guy to come forward with more information about where Nancy's remains are. And to believe that they could still make a buck from doing that. Money, money. Savannah Guthrie and the Guthrie family has been pretty outspoken that they will pay to receive Nancy. They want to bring her home. They want closure. If she is passed as they believe she has, they obviously want to like pay their respects, say their goodbyes and like have her home. Yeah. So is that enough for them to come back forward? So I only see four options forward here. If this theory is correct. One, the mastermind reopens communication with the Guthrie family. Is that through a new station tip line? Is that directly to them? I don't know. Obviously, huge liability there if they do that. But if they feel like they can get the money, that's one way. Number two, DNA results come back and they identify who Porch guy is. That would be great if that happened. I don't know if that's possible. Number three, somebody comes forward with information who can identify Porch guy, which we were hopeful for six months ago. And number four, and this might honestly be what I think is realistic. That Nancy Guthrie's remains are eventually found somewhere in nature by a hiker or somebody doing target practice out in a rural area. I do think it's possible they're in the desert in Southern Arizona. That's a lot of desert. It's so vast. You know, I've both been there. I mean, it is just, it could be years. And I do think that that's how possibly that she will be found. But all of these lack actual answers. Like, who is the mastermind if that's true? Who is Porch guy? Will we ever get the why? Yeah, I don't know. But obviously, number one, no, it's just like bring Nancy home. And how I think the question I have is like, how often is this happening? This seems like not a one-off thing, right? This seems like a practiced, you knew exactly what to do. There's a name for this, right? This is Porch, whatever. Like, how often is this happening? But it's not Savannah Guthrie's mom. I think more than we think, because when I was going [BLANK_AUDIO] Looking up the wrench attack, not just the definition, but just more reporting on them. I know it was like an associated press article came up from last year, like there was more articles that were coming up about this rise in wrench attacks. And this one just might be a little bit of a different one. And yes, has gotten immense spotlight because it is Savannah Guthrie's mom, but this is something that seems to be on the rise, like targeting digital assets. The fact of it though is like how were they able to pull off an abduction of a grandma in 2026, where DNA is huge, where cameras are huge. Like I still can't believe that we're here now. Do you think they're gonna come out and do a press conference or say anything or like is it just gonna be like silence still? I think that a press conference will happen only if there is a massive update. I do say that though and we thought that the video when it was released of the abductor was a massive update and they didn't do a press conference then either. But like I think at this point, the options are like, either they identify who porch guy is and they arrest him and that's a press conference. They identify where these ransom notes are coming in from or deemed them like these are legit. We've identified who they came in from. That's a press conference or obviously a fancy is found. But it just feels like so radio silent, right, this second. And that's the problem people have relied on inside sources to try to come forward with any information because we've learned not a lot from the actual agencies. They're not saying a lot. So it just leaves people like wondering, speculating, guessing, theorizing and I do think that this could be credible and based on everything we know, right? Like the way these are written and like how this has been carried out, this is possible but it's still really unsettling. Like we don't know what happens. So I'm gonna be back in Arizona and I am going to stay on top of this case. Like I've never seen something like this and I hope for everybody's sake that we get some answers here that the gothrey family gets closer. - Yeah. - But I think like crime, I hope the crime junkies can watch and listen to this and feel a lot more educated about everything that's gone on in this case and like really understand what's at stake here and what's been said in hopes that like there are answers sometime soon. - So you guys make sure you are following us on social, on all the channels. That way Brianna is gonna be back in Arizona like she said soon. She will be on the ground in Tucson the second anything breaks or happens. But if you wanna be in the know on all headline making cases make sure you head to our crime junkie YouTube channel. Brianna releases a new video episode every Wednesday. I've had a heavy hand in crafting these stories with her so it feels like the crime junkie you know and love. Brianna's already covered like four or five cases. She'll be back on YouTube next week with a new one and I will be back in audio and on YouTube Monday with Britt for a brand new episode of Crime Junkie. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Crime Junkie is an audio check production. I think Chuck would approve. (crickets chirping)