EXCLUSIVE: JENKI - The Matcha Brand Taking Over London

We have Claudia and also Boyd. I spent the last five years building Genki. A match of brand that's carved out the zone space in the London Cafe scene. How did it all start? We actually started doing pop-ups around London by from like one's worth, to brick lane, Brixton. And I think we made like 15 quid in the day. Yeah, key lesson, understand your audience and then find the location. Who do you guys feel successful? We don't really celebrate the wins enough I don't think, but walking around London and being quite far away from your bar and seeing your product walking down the street feels amazing. Was there ever a plan bit? No. It's one of the most common things I hear. It's every that is trying to be successful has a minimal of success. They never have a plan bit. Claudia mentioned something there which was what Genki can be. What can it be? So we're sort of looking at ways that we can elevate the match or experience. There's a few new things that we'll be introducing soon. (upbeat music) Ladies and gentlemen boys and girls, we have what we have, a Corker. We always have a Corker on the show, fans and it. We have a really powerful couple. Claudia and Otto Boer. A match of brand that's carved out its own space in the London cafe scene. What started was as an idea, attended to four permanent bars. A cult following in a category they're helping redefine. They don't have that any enormous backers without any big investor headlines. Just a ton of belief, relentless work and a very real marriage, holding it all together by the scenes. So cool by the way. And recently they've had some twins. And congratulations please send them, Lord, congratulations. This is their first podcast ever, honestly. I'm honored, no press store by the way. No filters, just two people showing up and caring for each other. What really looks like to build something without bouncing, you know, with while bouncing nappies and cashflow on each other. So let's, as Paddy McGinnis used to say, let the matcher see the whisk. That's all you can do. Yeah, that was really good. I'm now inspired. There we go. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Having us. I've been, this is what I've been really looking forward to in the calendar. I look forward to all of them, by the way. So I just had it all start. I mean, I mean, you know, five years. You know, just guys, it wasn't, did you guys roll out a bed and think, right, matcher? Well, I like, what was the start? Well, it is actually coming up to our fourth birthday. Wow. In terms of the first four years since we opened Genki Spitfields. So I think we kind of look back and we always put that as when we started Genki opening that first part, but actually it started quite a bit before then. As do most, I guess, companies always have this predecessor moment of coming up with the idea. And it's, we sort of had to come up with that, bring it to market. How can we prove this concept? Whenever we spoke to people about match, it was always like, what's matcher? Is it that green-weird powdery stuff? And so we really wanted to test the market first. We actually started doing pop-ups around London from everywhere from like one's worth, to brick lane, to Brixton, which in hindsight weren't probably the best target audiences. I think notoriously, brick lane. We did one of our markets. We drove a long way to get to and turned up Saturday morning on brick lane to a market where everyone was looking for hangover cures and greasy fried things. And at the time, we were working out, OK, how many drinks would we need to sell a day to be able to pay for a rent of like 70/80K? And it was quite sobering when we realized that we'd need to-- Yeah, key lesson, understand your audience, and then find the location that those people are. But I mean, from there, we-- So just taking a step back, where did the idea come from? And how did we land on matcha bars? And both of us found our own way to finding matcha and seeing it as a great alternative to coffee. Matcha been around for hundreds of years, but in the UK, we really couldn't find a great matcha. It was always west badly, poorly prepared, and after thought on a menu. And after speaking to people and understanding how people responded to what match if you bought it up, it was clear that the experience people had had been a negative one. They'd had tried a poor matcha. They didn't prepare it correctly. So really what we realized is we had to bring that experience, that first time experience, level that up to doing that in a bar sense. So rather than sending the product to someone's home and leaving it up to them to make all those mistakes that we all do when we probably first have matcha, it was, let's freshly prepare the matcha in front of the audience, be able to talk about it, show the vibrant green color, prepare it in a way that's exciting and thought of striatrical in that sense. So we did the pop-ups in order to finesse that concept. And actually it was COVID started when we were doing our pop-up and we were timing as everything with all these things as well. And we were just lucky enough that before we'd signed on an agreement for, like I was saying, these big scary rents COVID happened. And we shut down this pop-up that we had in Old Street Tube. I don't know whether anyone remembers it, but everyone used to do a pop-up in Old Street Tube station. So we were one of those guys and it shut down. It made us sort of go inward on the brand, I think overnight, also built a website on Shopify. And we had kind of harnessed a bit of a community. So we were like, we need to keep supplying them with a bit of matcha. We've got a few people who are interested in talking. And off the back of that, we realized also, by communicating with the customers online as well, what people were really looking for. It's also worth remembering, like, before COVID, we did on-side. So we had our full-time jobs and then we were doing that on the side to be like test market, see how this could work by having, you know, matcha bars in London. And then COVID gave us the time to be like, okay, well, we can't do our regular jobs. We've got all this time. So we built a website, started packaging, matcha, running down to the post office every day, sending it out to like friends. And then it sort of just gradually got better and we had a better idea of what we wanted to do. And it sort of went from there. - If loads of husbands and wives listen to the show by the way. If they're listening now in a couple of time jobs, but they have that itch, that what we need to call it a foundocurus muscle. - Yeah, yeah. - What would you say to them to actually say, "You know what guys, this is what I would do?" - Well, I just think, I mean, it's quite actually hard to think about now five, four years in. But I just always remember, there was always ideas that we'd have. - Well, I-- - We're constantly talking about it. So in the evenings, it would just be over dinner, bouncing ideas. - But the switch from like the idea to actually doing it is just that. Like you do just have to do something in order to make that idea reality, though. It is just an idea until we did our first pop up. And then it was like, okay, we'll do our next pop up. And then it's like, let's do a bigger pop up. And it just sort of spiraled like that. And I think so often you get nervous about, I don't know, getting everything right. I mean, so many people talk about building the website or getting their logo and we were the same. And we put so much fear into like getting that right and perfect that you never actually did it. So it was always like, okay, we've just got to put something out and then we'll refine it because you, and I guess with Matcha, we had seen it successful in other parts of the world. But the London audience is very different. And notoriously tricky in the sense of, we're a coffee tea drinking nation, bring in Matcha and there sort of a bit. It's a harder sell, I would say. It's really interesting you say that. So were there signals? Was it, I always talk about business and business sending you signals? You mentioned you had to pop up there. Well, you had one or two or three. Do you think without those positive business signals early doors, would you have still kept going? Were you passionate about it then? Or was it actually also, I think we could make some cash out of here? No, so I think from those markets, it was more we have to do this to try and validate ourselves to be then, okay, we now we can go out and try and raise a bit of money because we've done all this already. The markets are total failure. Like we lost money doing the markets, but we learned a lot doing them. But I don't remember moments in those markets thinking we're onto something here. Like, so we went into the first bar, just like fingers crossed going, okay, we'll have a coffee machine, we'll make the bar look really cool when people pass, they'll have to look in because the bar will look so amazing. So the bar did the talking for us. The front of the bar was covered in this sort of wood veneer called Alpay and it was black and white, like very eye-grabbing. We had a coffee machine right there. So people will be thought, we're thinking, oh, it's just coffee shop, and then come in and we sort of ambush them with trying to get them to try a matcha and try, that's how we started it basically. And I think a lot of businesses starting, you don't get that interaction with the customer. I think where the markets were, so is that we had customers directly there who would see this green drink that we were whisking and preparing and pouring over. And there is some intrigue to people. So people, it did stimulate conversation. And it was how we ultimately tried to format our menu based on the customer feedback on what was, I quickly realized that people, we would quickly shoot to, okay, this is a great alternative for coffee. How do you drink your coffee and we'll think about, we'll personalize the drink based on what you like. So that inspired the menu being coffee inspired. So we have a matcha carno on our menu. We have a flat green on our menu. It was relatable then for the coffee. You can see it. which we quickly realised was who was drinking matcha. So I think whilst it wasn't a success in terms of money, and I'm just laughing because I just remember the moment where we actually left behind our milk steaming machine, which was literally half the stool. And it's just like you-- - I'm a beginning. - Why did you-- - But-- - Just forgot it. - But it was also-- - I'm sure we were in that. - But we-- and then that was also going, okay, we actually need to put a really sexy coffee machine in our bar because people are going to come in thinking we're a coffee shop, and that will inspire then. So I think from like if you're a new founder and trying to think of, I think it is realising that your idea and be agile to that initial concept and idea and sort of wait to listen to your consumers or customers in order to sort of formulate the next steps because if you go in with such a clear idea that is unshakeable, then I think that you end up not listening to your customers and probably putting forward a product that doesn't quite make sense. That said, we did push so many different ideas. And I think it took us quite a long time to realise actually focus on one. In the sense of our bars at the beginning, we were going to try a saw heaps, to sandwiches, to actually go into a bagel shop which would have probably been by device. To try all these different things. To try and push the average customer spend and bring in more people. But actually what we needed to do was just and build on that the loyalty of a matcher drinker, or the coffee drinker and really service that. And so by honing that, I mean, we've since removed and then constantly looking at that data, I think it took us too long to remove coffee off our menu. Because we basically realised we got offered to go into self-reduces and the space was really small. And we couldn't fit in the full sort of equipment that we needed in order to also offer coffee. So we used it as a perfect opportunity to just serve matcher. And then we looked at our spit-filled bar and it was 4% of our sales. But you've got coffee machines come with all these equipment, problems, leases, you've got to have a team that can also operate it clean. Anyways, we removed coffee from the menu and our sales went up by something like 80%. It was something quite rigidly as well. - Pretty immediately as well. - Immediately. And it was just operation efficiencies. But it was also like we were trying to do coffee well as well as match well when actually we just needed to be doing the match well. So the key lesson there is just do something pick it, do it bloody well, and ignore the. Don't try and do everything. So somebody's telling you, "Okay, look, we're going to do. " And like, I don't know. I'm trying to get somebody. Red ball equivalent. Just do that really well. Don't do like any. Because people are picking a brand or the product based on something specific. I think, yeah. And I think product wise, we can try and refine that and try and do that very sort of focused and do that well. But at the same time, when we started out all, we were really trying to do was survive in a time that was quite tricky. - Yeah, so we were having to do that. - So we did try and do all sorts of different things as well. So we had the online business where we were saying, "D2C, we were doing trade. We were running events whilst also running the bar." So we were trying to just see whatever stuck and landed. And now we're slowly refining that. But it is quite far reaching rather than just the bars. We do have four revenue streams. But it was. I guess also looking back on it, this was like a brand awareness tactic. So it was like, how far can we spread? Because obviously just bars, certain number of people are going to be able to. would have only been able to go to our hospital's bar. And how do you then continue, like that sort of customer base? Or if that's a customer that's a traveling customer, whereas then they're journey next. If they're not coming back to the bar. So therefore you want products lying in order to, or are they going back up north, and we could serve as a coffee shop up north with Janky so that they could still get their head up there. Whereas I do think now we've established. and that takes time. - Were you both aligned on the vision from day one? - That's a pretty good question. - Yeah, I mean, I think. I think the vision was always. was always match a bars. And the idea was always. And I think it's probably always been me that's gone off in tangents, and not it's always been fantastic at going. this great idea, Claudia, but let's think logistically about this. - I think we were both very aligned with what we wanted the end goal to be, which was Janky to be recognised as quality matcher and to see Janky and the product walking around the city. - I think we have two. our strengths line, different areas, which is why we're able to do what we do, and how we can operate together. One of Claudia's strengths is to. push the boundary of what's possible and trying to just do as much as possible. I'm the sort of operator who's sort of like. it's a great idea, but actually, like, if we think about how we're going to do that, and I mean, the famous part of that was we got on a call with Selfridges. When I thought we were on a call to get our powder into the food hall, on the shelves, and. I mean, that's what we were there for. And we were on this call with the food buyer, and by the end of the call, he was going, "Oh, yeah, that's great to hear about your product." So what do you guys want? And as I was about to say, like, "We want our matcher on your shelves." Claudia just came out of absolutely nowhere, and was like, "We want a full-time permanent matcher bar in Selfridges." And we'd never spoken about that before. And. I mean, just happened that they had a space in mind, and they had already thought that we'd be perfect for that space. So that worked out incredibly well. But maybe we wouldn't have taken that risk and gone in that direction, grown that fast without that sort of attitude towards those fantastic, by the way. That's a. I love those superstars. We had two Danish co-founders on, and they came. One of the co-founders said, "This is going to be really difficult, we just go with it." And they're like, "Okay." And then they land on their biggest car, during the juice. Yeah. And I was like, "And I love that." I love Sim Colton. Tell me through that, when you're on the call, which is important, do you just go right? Something crucially. Like a smell. Yeah, something crucially odd. I didn't mention there was that it was my birthday. And I think I must have just had a bit more courage in me, because it was all. It was my day. No, I don't know. I think it was. Very playful. But we were still finding our feet with the first bar. We were still in there every single day, trying to figure out what worked. And then we took on a second sight while we were still trying to figure out. It's. Yeah. I think the conversation had gone. And it's again kind of listening. And you're probably getting a sense now, you can really see, like, I'm very much more on the brand side. And it's also very much more on the operations, the logistics side. But I find it fascinating, kind of listening to the customers. And even on this call with self-ridges, I could get the sense of what the person, without sort of saying the name, the person was sort of asking for or searching for us, pushing us in that direction. And self-ridges is renowned for wanting to be the first to do something new, do something different. And when we did start, Genki, we were hit with a lot of people. You know, most people that came into the bar would ask what maturist, which seems actually a wild question to ask now often. I mean, we never. We rarely get that question now in our bars. And I think it's that sort of inquisitive, how can you, as found as you always know the entire product and it's very tricky to put yourself into the feet of your customer in order to really understand what they want. So with all these like conversations and learnings or with our bars, it was trying to just really put ourselves in the feet of the customer to understand it. And those markets even going back to them were just understanding, okay, if you stand there and I whisk here, you can have the conversation, I'll whisk, but the guy's going to be looking at me and how can that then look when. So it's all these like little sort of learnings that you take to build a. What's one of the misconceptions you mentioned there? What's one of the misconceptions of maturist because from a personal experience, I think it's a bit of a faft of make, right? Which is weird because actually I make it and it's fine. Yeah. All these whiskers, I think they've got you whisker. But every time I have it, it's been like the gym, no, then you do anything. Thank God I went. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a great drink. Have a little bit of oat milk. That's good. That's good. Some ice, a little bit of whiskey and some ice. I think the common. So the common mist consumption. I don't know what your first common mist conception would be. Don't me to go. Yeah, your best place for some time. Okay, common mist conceptions. So I think people. I think inherently people are coffee drinkers or tea drinkers before their match of drinkers. So it's often been an afterthought. People are now looking at how they can fuel themselves in different ways. Or that afternoon, pick me up or morning drink, might serve people in different ways. So I think the common mist conception is that matcher is just a caffeinated drink. But actually it is a lot more than that. There's this is a pack full of antioxidants. It's a slower release energy. So they actually. I think the real education on matchroom, what it is. And I think to your point is. well, the whisking element. It is complicated in a sense because it's a new way of making something. But if I were to also present you with a coffee machine and some beans and asked you to make a coffee and steam your milk to make a flat white, I think you'd actually have a way harder time than whisking up some match, but maybe I'm wrong Nick. That's a perfect art by the way, that was gold standard. I'll take some notes that was unbelievable. I don't agree. The way you broke that down, I would, yeah, if you just looked at it from like a normal ingredients and raw materials, I mean, yeah, I've done you a lot. You don't need much equipment with an whisking. Yeah, yeah. Quality of drink. He's just following a few basic rules. Yeah. And once you've got it becomes like part of that ritual and that is a nice, like there's a nice element to that. Like there is coffee and I think people even like may hear a cup of tea, but you'll have to learn. You get your favourite mug out. You, you know, some people have loose leaf tea. Some people just chuck it in a bag, a couple of sugars here, maybe not there. Different types of milk. I mean, it's, there's, everyone has their own little nuances. Yeah. Time out in a break. Yeah. How do you guys resolve conflicts as a team? How do you guys, how do you guys do that? Is it as a team or as a couple? Both. I should. Yeah. I don't know because the line can be quite blurred and I'm sure you've had, you know, one of the two rouse and stuff, but how do you guys resolve that? I don't think we've had rouse in. I think we've had rouse. No, definitely not. I think we both know each other's strengths and we, and there's sort of a natural divide to that. So I, I don't think I know better than Claudia on, in the areas that she manages and then same vice versa. So I think we, we're lucky in that we have natural areas that are our strengths in the, yeah, we've always, we've always really, sort of respect to each other and I, you know, there's a, one of the main benefits of being a founder with your partner is that you know that you're working towards the same thing and it's going to be beneficial for both of us ultimately. So I, I don't know how it would, I mean, you know, solo founders I am in awe of. We've got, we can bounce off ideas, but I know I have full trust that Oshawa is going to get whatever he needs to get done for Janki and I think he would say the same for me. It's like, you know, so there's never, in terms of conflict, I guess conflict and how we would solve it has normally been like we were saying, I would have some idea and Otto would then try to calmly explain why it might not be as easy at which I would go, okay, that probably makes quite a lot of sense. I'm now going to actually sort of go away and think about how I can make it make sense for you as well. So I think it's just trying to compartmentalise it to, for, and is it the right decision for the business and it always comes back to that and that's the great thing about running a business is it doesn't need to get personal because you can just flip it and go, okay, well, does this make sense for Janki? Not for Otto, not for Claudia, but is it for Janki is it the right decision? So I think by always putting it back to removing the personal, yeah, I think that would be my. Yeah, I think that. Since the start, you know, it was just the two of us, but then growing an office as well and a wider team, I think taking the approach of we are down to here what everyone has to say. So everyone's opinions on a question we might have to try and get every single angle you can think of and then being able to make the decision between the two of us on this direction and going because this is what we think is best for Janki long term. And then that really has got us to a point where we haven't had that sort of conflict to date. Well, by the way, that's lovely, but we're so lucky to hear that. Sometimes we get people on the show and they're like, oh, yeah, we've had some major bus stops, we walk away, we hug and come back and we try again. It's not to say that it's not easy. I think we very much speak as we're going and we are learning along the way of, okay, maybe we should set some boundaries here and there. So it's a constant thing we're trying to figure out and think about, but there will be times where, you know, we just suddenly realise actually, if someone doesn't want to speak about work past 10pm, totally fine. Because it's a sort of thing where you're lying in bed and if someone brings up something, you know, work related that you know you're going to think about just lying there all night, that's not okay. On ceiling duty. Yeah. Do we lock the shop? We lock the shop. It's always ideas that come there. Yeah, the boundaries and that's become harder at having introduced joins. And I think having those boundaries are really important. And when you are founders and also partners, those boundaries are blood. So actually having to reassert them every now and then is really important. So, you know, when we do go home, we try, I mean, we naturally talk about work most evenings. But if it's a case where one of us is like, actually, I've had a really big date. Can we just, or I'll give you 30 minutes. And then we can, that's the sort of approach that we've taken with that. But it's also, yeah, you've got incredible support from someone who you can really understand and lean on. So that's a definite bonus. And I think conflict in the team, as we've, we've grown quite quickly now from sort of Otto and I to quite a few more people. And naturally, because we have bars, we have quite a few members of staff who aren't necessarily working from the office every day with us. But it's a very collaborative approach. And I think we aren't innate, like we don't micromanage. I think we have a huge amount of trust also in our team. And I feel incredibly proud of the people that we have working at Genki, sort of experts in their field. And I think that's another thing that's just really important that those first few hires for us have been people that we know are going to do, you know, a much better job in certain areas than we ever can. Our experts in their own and can challenge us and can challenge the ideas and will kind of push the boundaries of what we know and what Genki can be. And that's really exciting. It does sort of mean, I mean, I think it's important, and we're still figuring this out how to be founders and also once you bring in people who can do other things, what's then your role as a founder. Hi guys, I was the one that started it. Yeah, yeah. I'm quite a year exactly. Exactly. So it's to be honest, things just change so quickly. You clearly mentioned something there, which I don't know if anybody could, which is very subtle, which was what Genki can be. What can it be? God. Well, we have certain ambitions for what we would like it to be. And I do fully believe that we can get it there. And for us, it is about a sustainable approach to that growth. I feel like where it started, which was introducing London to matcha, is now being, we're now in a position where we want to, or we feel like we are leading matcha experts and providing the people of London right now with the bars, an opportunity to explore matcha, try matcha, discover matcha, different ways of drinking matcha and enjoying matcha. And really, we want to grow on that, open more bars, innovate further with what we can do with matcha and continue to deliver a really quality product. I think that's something that we're, we now constantly come back to as, you know, when we're doing seasonal specials, is this, is this innovative? Have we seen it anywhere else? If we have, we would never look to do it. We want to work with like natural ingredients, but also sort of make it a little bit surprise our customer. So yes, we know that we can do a flat green incredibly well and always be freshly prepared, prepared to order. We're always looking at like the ingredients we're putting in, like what milks we're using, you know, down to the temperature of our water. But, you know, it's the next step, what, you know, I want to try something new today, what's that? So we're sort of looking at ways that we can elevate the matcha experience. But I think at the moment it's just, you know, if you're first time matcha drinker, but also you're matcha connoisseur and you've had loads across the world, why would Genki be an exciting place to go and try? So just wanting to, yeah, what can, what can Genki be? I think it can be across London in more locations, national, potentially internationally. And also really hone that at home customer experience as well. I didn't want you to feel like you can't make your matcha before your, your Gen. I just, like it was, you know, played around. No, it's lovely. It's, every time I have it, your wrist bamboo, is it bamboo wrist? Yeah, it's bamboo wrist, yeah, it's really good. And it's a slow release of energy. I have to say, I have sometimes some coffees in the morning. My dad used to have a wrist retto, which is a really small one. But no, I really enjoy it. It's really good fun. And it's, and actually some days I like the theatre. I like waking up, we're going, here we go. Yeah. Work for some energy. If you're not having your matcha, what are you having instead? Yeah, I just get questions. There we go. Tables of turn. I'm having either been Greek. I just have an iced coffee with oat milk, so I'll have, I'll put it all. That's Greek. It's quite Greek, I think. - A frappe. - A frappe. Are you blending it? - No. - No, no. - Well, I don't know, actually, I don't know. I think that's about, yeah, I think that's about as good as I get. I think sometimes you drink loads of water. I've never seen my wake up unbashed. - Yeah. - Or was it anybody? - Yeah. - Garsby. - Garsby. - You just garsby. - Fint of water and a frappe. - So, yeah, so maybe a frappe. But I do feel mattress, maybe, do you know what it is? It's because it's not regular. So I feel like it's just for me. - Yeah, yeah. - I know mattress drinkers every day. - Well, which is fantastic. - I think people do see it as a treat. - Yeah, I don't know. - There's different, again. - There's a big split in our demographic of customer where we've got people coming in every single day for their routine where it's not flavoured. It's very healthy, straight up. And then you've got the other demographic where people are seeing it as a treat, coming in the afternoons, adding different shots and flavours of different things. - And I think it raises a good point of like, again, coming back to your customer. Like, what does a repeat customer look like? So for us in the bars, an ideal customer would be someone that does come back daily. - Really? - Yeah, because it's like a social media. - I mean, and we do have some ridiculous return customer percentages across our bars. It does show opportunity to bring in new people to the bars as well. But I think, you know, some people are coming every day and that's a day drinking. You've got to think of the lifetime value of that customer, whereas online, for example, purchasing matcha powder to drink at home, obviously you've got a higher customer spend, but they're only maybe ordering that once a month. So I think it's just interesting when you are looking at launching a new product, what that, the customer retention looks like and what that journey is for that customer after their first order or experience. Because it's so much easier to maintain a customer than it is to getting new customers. - How do you know what people want? I mean, for me, that was, that must be so hard. I'm sort of picturing you guys going to a Willy Wonka style room and then try loads of things and go, yes, no, yes, no. And then you try it for a week, you're like, oh shit, auto, you screwed it, no, haven't, let's try it again. And then you think, like, that's how do you guys try and you stuff? That must be nerve wracking, I think, a bit as well. - Yeah, we've got a head of flavor and recipe. - Food, innovation, manager. - We call it a head of flavor and it's like a constant in the office trying things almost every day, every week. And seeing what the whole team thinks for everyone's trying different flavors and recipes. But yeah, from the start, trial and error and then now giving a bit more. - So we have, I mean. - Feeling of knowing what will work in terms of flavor. - What would you change tomorrow? - One thing about Junkie. - That's a really difficult question to choose one thing. I think as a, I don't know. - No, I'm a little bit of a perfectionist, so I only see the things that are wrong. - Oh God, so what are they? - I don't really want to go into all that. If to choose one thing though, I don't think I could narrow down to one thing. There are too many things. - You still have. - I'll have a think about it. - I'll have a think about you. - I'll have a think. Open the floor, that question too. - Yeah, I'm gonna try and keep that. If we were to change one thing about Junkie, I would have, actually it is quite hard. When you have to narrow it down to one, sorry Nick, this should be. - Do you product, do you think of service, do you think of flavor, do you think marketing branding? Do you think of higher, like on set, I suppose. - Yeah, but not higher, very. I think if we were to look at, I think it was, I think it's to look back at our journey and to be like, how would we change how we got to his? 'Cause right now, what one thing we could change about Junkie, there's nothing directly we would change. We're just working on refining what we do now. So there's not something that I would literally switch out because I think we would have done it. But I think getting here, I think it is going back to the trialing loads of different things. And actually even now, what we're doing is refining what we're doing and who work, like the channels were working in. So just being a little bit more cutthroat probably. Yeah, with who we work with in terms of across the board from like, I guess different channels just being really clear cut on making those decisions based on what we know is like our gut instinct to those decisions rather than sort of second guessing some of it and go, but if we do that, we might just going, no, this is the right decision only getting carrying on. - You have a lot of grounds, I think it's, you have a lot of brand equity. So you now know you can now have maybe the luxury. - The first time, when I saw my business at Lingerah, first year was scrappy. We were taking cash if we could find it from anybody. And we were partnering with people that we didn't shouldn't have partnered with. Not first year, like first, couple of months, whatever. And that was difficult. I think when we get older, we're getting bigger, we choose our clients, we have a real target, we know we know what we know at work, so we know what channel doesn't work. - You become famous. - You become, you become, you go. - Yeah, but also when you start out, you don't have the luxury of being able to forward those people that you want to try and bring on with the skillset you need. So you make, you try and train people up from what you think is the right approach, but it's very different to now when there is success and you can go, okay, well, should we now try and change things up and not try and grow from within with a team and try and source from the outside? So there's no real right answer there. - It's interesting. We got a lot of people listening to show that are going through it, by the way. They've just built the Founder Curious. They would have just quit. - Yeah. - They would have just started the side hustle. They are really in the doldrums, like down the doldrums. They can't get a client, nothing works. - Yeah. - And they're bloody lonely. Take me back to a time, maybe individually, or together as a team, where you were like, I'll tell you what, Claudia, this is pretty bleak now. - Yeah. - All right. - I do think we have to tell the story of our first week of opening Svitafilts. - Yeah, that was, that was tough. I think we were so busy we didn't quite realize what was happening. We opened the store for the first time on a Monday, took our first payment, it was a call quite exciting. I think day two or day three, Claudia got COVID, and it was at the time where that was quite a big deal. And we then had to go home, shut up shop, after opening for like two days. - With a very skeleton team of myself Otto, we trained ourselves up as baristas. I'd done a three-hour barista call basically, and Otto's brother, Louis, who was mentioned earlier, and Joe, who was a barista, we'd, I think that-- - Team was like four people, and we opened seven days away. - And we lost two hundreds out of four. - Yeah, we lost, well obviously, 'cause COVID, so we had to, because we were both in the same, so negative to being a founder couple COVID. Both of you are wiped out at once, basically. And we actually, so we shut, so Janki had to close the day after it opened. We went home, our house flooded, we were moving that week as well. We were then moving to, we were moving house as well at the time, so to be closer to the shop. And luckily, Joe, I think, I seem to remember finding another barista, and we had all this, so it was just like, how many more things can be thrown at us? When you've got the pressure-- - That wasn't so bad, because I think we just had the adrenaline of the week of opening. I think what, going back to your point, what was more, like in the thick of it, was going through Omicron times where there was no lockdown, but just everyone was at home, and no one was out and about, and we were making barely anything every day, and we, you were going from month to month thinking, at the end of every single month, how are we gonna pay everyone? And we weren't paying ourselves at the time, we'd stripped down to like a pretty core team. But yeah, it was for quite a long time, with pretty touch and go. But I think we were so busy with just focusing on what we could do outside of that, with online sales, and not just relying on the revenue from the bar coming in. So, did you ever think you wanted to, did you ever want to quit? - Yeah, we spoke about this the other day actually. I don't think we did, no. There wasn't a time where we thought-- - You were supposed to do it. - No. - No, I think it was just focused on making it work and trying to find a way of making it work. And that's where those sort of, I think, being, and there's a lot of different, you mentioned it, that we didn't have a huge investment, or serious like VC back in our thing at the beginning, which I think sometimes when you are, all this money is thrown at us, or would be thrown at you, then like you've gotta do something with it. So, because of the sort of leanness of the amount that we had to work with, it was sort of utilizing, in the case we've got the space, what can we do in this space to bring in more people? So you are having to constantly just innovate, literally week to week, we were going, what can we do to sort of increase, get people into the shop more? - And I know for me, like a motivator was going, at the start we took money from friends and family. So that was like even more of a motivator to go, this cannot, there's no option in terms of failure, like this will work and it has to work. So I use that as a motivation to be like, We don't have an option here. Is there ever a plan B? No. Is trying to be successful or has a bit of success. They never have a plan B. And it's quite podcasty. But that's always there, or nothing. Which has to be. But we lived and breathed it. So we moved to be close to the bar. So we could nip in in two minutes and be there. We were there every single day for four or five months at the start. Do you feel successful? I think that's probably our biggest weakness in the way that we're. We don't really celebrate the wins enough, I don't think. We're sort of immediately onto the next thing. And it feels exciting that I think we can recognise that we are making traction. And walking around London and being quite far away from your bar and seeing your product walking down the street is that feels amazing. I'm a sponsor, I don't even own it. Or someone sending us a photo of someone with one of our tote bags of their shoulder in a different city or a different country. That's a really good feeling. But we've already set our sights on what we want the goal to be in two years' time. So, yeah, we probably should do a better job of feeling like we're doing well, but I think. Why do you think that is? Why do you guys not? I'm probably the opposite. I celebrate every small thing in the business. We've just got to keep our door open and relax. I'm like, "Win, baby." So that's all that hard. That's great energy. And I think, like Otter said, we could do better at that. And I think, you know, if we're. I think Otter's right. I think a lot of the success, though, came when we then suddenly had twins in the mix. So then, you know, every single day on a one you need to be home by six o'clock to get bath time. So then, you know, you might have some celebrations during the day, but realizing that we needed to probably go up for drinks a few bit more. How is that? How is having them change you as founders? Not as people, but as operatives. I mean, for me, it's just your perspective mainly on time becomes so much about just being hyper-productive. So your time is so much more precious because you've got to split it even further. So for me, it's like, here, if I'm. when I'm in the office, I'm 100% on Janky. And I've got to get it done because I want to get back in time to give the twins some time in the evening. And if I don't, then, yeah, that. I mean, it's just I do because I've just got to get it done. So it's just the productivity levels go up. And also your perspective on just the value of things and what means. I think since we've had the boys who now, we now talk a lot more about what we want Janky to give us. And thinking about goals and trying to success now is a bit more of time. And to go, "Okay, in a year's time, okay, what do we want to achieve?" And it always comes back to the amount of time we've spent with the boys. Yeah, it's changed what we see success as, I think. And I think we've actually probably become a bit more ambitious when it comes to how fast we want to get somewhere. So actually, in a weird way, I wasn't expecting that. Yeah, that's. Yeah. If I was really. I'm just digesting it. That's pretty cool. That's really cool. Have twins. Absolutely. So let's go and boys show us an experience. If you're listening and you just start out with your loved one, have a baby. We feel like we already had a kid going into having. Yeah, the key is that Janky is our first baby. And people say this all the time and you're like, "Yeah, yeah." But it really is just another relationship that you have, that you have to lighten up to and understand. So yes, it's not a human. But I do think, like I said, the splitting of the time, it's just so little hours in the day and you just want me to make yourself as productive as possible. What's one thing you want to say to each other, which you haven't said before? Oh, oh God. Work wise. Sure. Yes. I think you've got radars. Yeah. Just maybe a moment of reflection. It's really good today. Let's try and maybe let's just have that little bit of a win moment, as you guys mentioned. Yeah. Okay. Success right now. Reflecting on success. No, I could say to Otto that. Because I took some maternity leave off. Otto tried to. But it was quite difficult. He's in last long. It didn't last long. Maybe 10 days. I pretty sure I was paying invoices in the hospital. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. But I just always have had so much appreciation for Otto for giving me that time to. Because we talked about earlier, the boundaries between work. Otto would come back and it is. I would sort of bite at the hill going, "Come and tell me everything I need to know because it's very weird to suddenly go from one day to another and not have that." We'd opened a bar a few weeks before the boys arrived. And then we opened another bar a couple of months after the boys arrived. So there's a lot going on and we employed 40 people in the time that you're in maternity leave. Yeah. It was crazy and Otto just did just step up. And I've seen it now having come back. And it's quite a cool thing to see because we don't often see each other outside of any work context. But I had suddenly that perspective of an appreciation that everybody had because it's always working alongside one another. So to suddenly see him from a different perspective and going in and going, "Oh, this is what you're like at work." It was a very. It was a very proud moment where I was like, "Okay, well, I've always spoken so highly of the team and going everyone just picked up and got on." And it was as if I hadn't left. But actually. But a lot of changed. We took an offer song. There we go. We're ready for yours. I'm peddling back. How long have we got on it? It looks like time, no? We've got time. We've got five minutes. It's a really hard one. You could think about it. Yeah. I think our style is not sort of. Not sort of. adishing out self-praising stuff like that. But definitely wouldn't be where we are without what Claude's done. There you go. And I think what. Not many people realize is the brand and the. Yeah, the brand value that we've got today is pretty massive and it's all down to Claude from the start. So we had some people helping us but really shaping what that is is all Claude and nothing to do with me. What would the brand look like? Yeah, so I was just wondering what would be off. Yeah, it would be. No, no, no, no. You'd about say what does the brand look like if I had been. I have visions of like multi-colored dream ghosts. I'm thinking like. that sort of word on Microsoft. Yeah, that sort of brand. low goes. Yeah, not good. It's about a few good inputs. Well, look guys, I've really got a lot of like three minutes. I've usually asked people to ask me questions. I'm not going to do it this time because I don't feel it's. I'm so excited to ask you why. Do you know what I know? I don't have a one. I'm so happy to ask you me. We do have some fan questions. Okay. So one, any discount codes? Okay. We don't have any discount codes. Very naughty. Love you Sarah. We got one from Rita. Yeah. What makes Jenky Matcha different from other matcha brands? Okay. Do you want to go? I feel like there are matcha brands popping up all over the place online. We are the only people doing it, the way we're doing it, in front of people with the bars. Trying to change the sort of education about how easy it can be to make a really good quality matcha. So I think that's the biggest differentiating factor for us. I think if we're looking at our competitors though, that also do coffee. But we try and bring a different level of quality when it comes to everything that goes into our drinks. I'm not sure if people quite understand every syrup and every bake that we make is all done in house fresh every day. So our kitchens in South London, we van them around. But you know, the lavender CBD matcha latte, that's lavender flowers steeped with spirilline, a powder to give it the color like nothing is artificial. It's all as good as it can possibly be. So I think that's what separates our drink from the competition. But what would you say for our powder in particular? Well, I mean, I think you've answered it pretty well to be honest. And I think that there are a lot of matcha brands popping up now. And I think where, you know, when Otto and I started, one of the key things was that people hadn't had a good experience of matcha. And we really wanted to, and we spent a lot of time trialing a lot of different matches. And we've landed on a matcha that has a flavour profile that people we've become known for, which is a mellow smooth matcha with the kind of creamy nutty undertones. And I think we have not changed our matcha since the first day that we started whisking matcha in London. And I think for, you know, we try a lot of matcha. And we still continue to try a lot of matcha. And I think it's a very. approachable matcha flavour and it can be paired beautifully with lots of different flavours as well which Otta has noted that all our ingredients are natural and I just have Brett who is our head of food innovation manager. In the back of my heads telling me how the British strawberries that we put into our strawberry elderflower matcha latte got lost. And I think there was, can we just get other strawberries? No, we have to have British strawberries because the flavour is that. They have to be seasonal. And they have to be seasonal. It is that detail and I think we probably don't, we want to do a lot more of providing some more transparency on that but I think there's a lot of attention to detail that goes on in order to make what we put in our drinks 100% and I think there's still a lot of bad matcha. But you know we're out there not yet. Yeah, I'll just be clear. Just to be honest, it's fantastic. Yeah. Why is it now? For that for you, the biggest difference. Well guys, look it's been an absolute pleasure. I just want to say thank you so much first podcast. I really, really enjoyed it quite emotional. Some of it was quite nice. You guys are smashing it keep doing what you're doing. Yeah. Amazing how the babies just altered the vision which I love. And hopefully this is you know, I hope you guys enjoyed it and I just want to say thank you so much again and maybe get your own in a couple of years who knows who knows. Yeah, we could do 2.0 and 2.0. 2.0. Here we go. Well, thanks a lot guys. Thank you very much for having us.