Exclusive: BBC Eurovision team reveal their plans for 2025

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You can vote for as many countries as you want, but you cannot vote for your own country. I know because I tried that a couple of times last year. Did you? No. Never Switzerland! Switzerland! Switzerland! This is Switzerland! Switzerland, Nebraska! Hello and welcome to this very special brand new episode of the Euro trip podcast. Hello, if you are a brand new listener, if you've never been here before, and you are here because you want to hear our exclusive interview with the team who are behind the UK search for the Eurovision artist and song for 2025. Hello, welcome. Nice to have you here. I'm Rob Lilley Jones, and if you are a regular listener, welcome back. We are going to go on quite the ride over the next hour because I was fortunate enough to get an invite to the BBC, and that doesn't come along very often. And I sat down with Andrew Carmel, who is an executive producer from BBC Studios for Responsible for Eurovision, and of course the UK's head of delegation. And joining him on the search this year is David May. David was Sam Rider's manager for a long time. He was Sam Rider's manager when Sam did Eurovision back in 2022, and the UK came so close to winning the contest. And the two have paired up for the UK search this year. Now there is so much that you're going to hear here. You're going to find out all about the type of artist thereafter, how the search started, the some incredible stuff about the song, and what we can expect, or not expect. It will make sense when you hear it. And also we touch on Oli Alexander and the UK and their result in 2024, and how that result has inspired things to be a bit different for 2025. Now if you've got any comments on what you hear on today's episode, at your trip podcast on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, Threads and Blue Sky. You can also leave some rating and a review wherever you're listening. If you really enjoy the episode, and if you really enjoy the episode, you can buy us a coffee over on BuyMeAcoffee.com/EuroTripPolcast. And if you want to donate a couple of quid to help us keep doing what we're doing here on the podcast, then you can of course click the link in the description for today's episode. And before we get to it, I should also say that you can read all of our exclusive stories of which there are many over on EuroTripPolcast.com. But that's enough from me, and it's now time for you to hear from the two people that you're really here for. Andrew Carmel and David May in conversation with me at the BBC. So welcome then to the fourth floor of new broadcasting house here in London, we're at the BBC. And I'm very excited to say that sat opposite me are the two men leading the UK search for our entry for 2025. But Andrew Carmel, Andrew, hello. Good morning, Rob, how are you? Very, very well, thank you. And making his debut on the EuroTrip podcast with what David made, David, hello. Morning, Rob. Lovely to be here. It is lovely to have you both here. Now, before we start, I've just been to Basel. I've got a bit of gift. So let me just delve into the into the bag that I've got next to me. I hope it's only a small gift of the BBC. We can't take brides. Well, don't worry. So everybody close their eyes. This isn't happening for anyone from the BBC who's listening. So these are actually, I've got my eyes closed. So these are famous, famous, famous biscuits from Basel. Wow. So there you go. That's yours, Andrew. And then David, that's yours. That is very kind. So these are famous biscuits from Basel. They're called Basel, luckily. They started making them in 1750, something but I promise you, they're not that old. Don't worry. They also last three months. 24th of July's the expiry date. There you go. So if you don't get around to meet them in the last year, it's all fine. Thank you. Yes, they gave them out at the semi-final draw. So there you go. It's not a dinosaur. It's actually, apparently, it's the emblem of the city of Basel, which is the top of the bishops star. Wow. I need to brush up on my facts already. And I've got a Eurovision heart as well. So which scene don't need only right for you? That's true. That's very kind of you. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. Well, I've hopped on it back from Basel. We're now here in London, as I said. And delighted to speak to the two of you about the UK search for Eurovision 2025. We're going to chat about the search for the artist and act, which I know. I think I'm right in saying has been selected. That is correct. It's funny isn't it? There are some things you can say, some things you can't say. I'm just going to keep looking ahead. But it's great to have you here. Now, if we start with 2025, how are we feeling? Are we happy? We are talking. What are we now? We're basically February. So it's February, we're three months away from the grand final. As things stand, are you both very satisfied with the place that the UK and the BBC and everybody finds themselves in now? Very happy. Very, very happy yet. Nice. Scott Mills just said happy on the radio. I'm saying very happy and don't say very, very happy. Very, very happy. Yeah, we're excited. My favorite thing is now that every single listener and Eurovision fan listens to this podcast or go, when Andrew said very, very happy. David said, what did you just say, David? I think I repeated very, very happy and excited. Scott said good for a member, right? He didn't say happy, so I would say very good to you and say very, very good. Well, looking forward to everything, reading far too much into all of those things that you just said. What should we start before we get back to 25? And obviously, we'll spend quite a long time talking about 25, as is only right. Can we start with, oh, what time would it be? I think in Sweden, it was probably about 1am on May the 12th. And we've just seen the end of the Eurovision Grand Final of 2024. Oli Alexander has placed a pretty short 18th. That's right. Obviously, did OK with the juries. No point with the tele vote. What was your initial feelings in those few moments after the Grand Final, Andrew? Firstly, just very proud of Oli. You know, everyone knows it was a difficult year. I mean, anyone who saw the documentary he did will see it wasn't easy for him. So I was hugely proud of Oli. I was just thrilled that he would want to do Eurovision for the UK. We surprised with the end result. Of course, we'd have loved points from the viewers, that can't and I wouldn't. But we all know Eurovision is unpredictable. I think the most important thing for him is that he did a performance that he was really proud of and made a statement. Are the things you do differently? And I'm sure we'll come onto those as we talk about 2025, but are the things that were immediately obvious that you thought maybe we do that differently if we were, and obviously you are, you know, if we were to do it again? Well, I think each year, we look at Eurovision a different way. So this year, David's come on board. David and I worked together in 2022 on some rider. And I think we just want to draw on the experiences we've had in the past going forward. So you can take learning from every year at Eurovision. And I think that's how I look at it really going forward for 2025. Obviously, as you said, David's come on board for this year and 2022. Obviously, we hold up as a fantastic year for the UK Eurovision, coming so close to winning the contest. Do you almost learn more from the years where the act doesn't do as well as maybe we would have hoped? Then a year where obviously Sam comes second, do you think, well, we're going to done much differently about that because it's obviously gone very well. Things are interesting. Well, I can only speak from that year and a half of this year, I guess. Or what is hard, I think I get a load of learnings from coming very close. And there was so many things we talked about that we would have done so differently, had you had some sort of more foresight into the future of timings. The way it came around for us was quite quick. So, I don't know, arguably, you get equal from both, I would say. I don't know how you feel about it. No, I agree. I think that's it. You don't only just learn from your own experiences as the UK delegation. You learn from what other people have done as well. And you think about what should be your priorities going forward. And we've had a really clear set of priorities for us finding the act and song for this year. Yes, so I I think you learn from every experience, good and bad, not just UK, but other countries too. - And just finally on 2024, and finally on Oli. How have you reacted to a suppose some of the coverage? I suppose that Oli's been involved in after the contest. Obviously recently was on the ground. Norton Show, he said, what would his advice be for the app? And he said, well, get a good therapist. That mustn't be nice to hear from the BBC team. - Well, obviously I can't speak on behalf of Oli personally. Oli has his own feelings about the contest, and I wouldn't want to. All I would say is it's quite well documented. It was a difficult year, you know, as I mentioned before. Anyone who saw his road to Eurovision documentary would see, it was difficult, it was difficult circumstances. So I don't feel I can really speak on behalf of him. It's not fair to all I'll say is that as the BBC studios, we did put in place extensive sub-support and welfare and we'll do so going forward for this year's artist. It's really important. I mean, you'll know a lot of your listeners will know. The EBU have introduced a code of conduct in new welfare protocols. A lot of what's in there has come about through partly through conversations with the BBC because we've got a lot of experience in these areas. So we take it very, very seriously, and certainly we'll do this year. David, bring you in, then. Where were you watching the Grand Final of 2024? Were you at home watching? Were you watching the show? I was actually in Malmo. I was in Malmo. So I was watching I was live in the arena, it was good fun. What did you make of it? What did you make of it being there? And I suppose just touching on how the UK had done and obviously your experience of 2022, you know, a few things you were start there thinking, oh, I am surprised that this has ended how it has. I don't know, I think every scenario is a surprise within Eurovision. You know, I don't, you expected to be surprised. No matter what, and I think it's so hard to tell with each country how they're going to place and how they're going to do and how people are going to react, especially with the televote as well coming into it. You don't know what each country's thinking. So to be honest with you, I'm always expected to be surprised. And not particularly, I just think incredible atmosphere. And I think touching on the point as well in terms of therapy, I think it's important that every one of that level has that kind of psychological support. It is like a competition like nothing else. You're getting hurt or a million miles an hour into a very, very public situation. And it's a very important integral part of an artist career through their whole journey. So yeah, I'm prepared to be surprised. It's just amazing fun every single time. - And as you say, ultimately, you could be anyone. If you're performing on TV in front of 170 million people, that's gonna do something to you one way or the other, right? - 100%. - I mean, who wouldn't be nervous doing that? Let's be honest. We're nervous behind the scenes. So any artist who puts himself out there to do that, I just applaud them for it because we all know the attention you get and the comments people get. So full credit to them. And it's our job as the team working with them to make sure we provide as much support as we can during the process and after as well. - And it doesn't stop just in those main performances. It continues day in, day out for them on social media, emails internally with the teams that label the management and the fans. So it's full on. - Highly pressured. - Highly pressured. - Highly pressured. I'm not any other. 'Cause Eurovision isn't that anything else, obviously. - Yeah. - So David, you said you were in Malmer there for the grand final. - Obviously Andrew, you were there. We know that. How did this, how did this happen? How did you guys come together for 2025 and how early did these discussions start? - Well, it started straight after Malmer really. As people know, I think listening to that, David and I worked together in 2022 with some writers' campaign. I didn't know David before then. The first time, I think the first time we met, I was at a label meeting, a pile of phone, part of Warner Group. - You had a lot of slideshows. - Yes. - Yeah, I really enjoyed that. - Presentation came up and I was like, I like this thing. - So it's Andrew's sludge again is good. - All right, technically, okay, we're talking that later, but I'm gonna say yes for now. We'll come back. - Content, content, okay. - Content, technical ability. - Not technically, like university lecturer that can't quite get in with tech work. - Absolutely, but content was great. - Yeah, no, I mean, what it was, again, a lot of your listeners will know that we worked with tap music who brought to the BBC, introduced Sam to us. Once that introduction had happened, then we had a job to do to persuade Sam and David is management and also the label who are part of the whole campaign, that this was a good thing to get on board with. So myself and Lee Smithhurst went to warn the music and we just did this big presentation, which was basically selling Eurovision, telling them what the opportunities are. I mean, there was about 30 people in that room. There was about two or three big Eurovision fans there who were smiling, which was really helping me. Well, a lot of people needed persuading. So, at that stage, because at that stage, at that stage, it seems a long time ago now, but pre-Sam, pre-2022, we're at the back of to double Neil Poison, indeed. Nothing was guaranteed. And we had a job on our hands. Ben had introduced David and Sam to us, but we hadn't met them in person at this point. But we did have a job to do, because as you just said, the results had not been great for the UK. So we had to sell the, I think the wider opportunities of Eurovision, we talked about some of those artists that had gone on to have huge international success. We talked about the opportunities that could come about. We'd also been working really hard early in the year across the BBC to make sure we got support across the BBC. I think people know now the last few years, from Sam Rider onwards. We've not just had Radio 2 support, but Radio 1 support as well, across TV. So we were presenting a sort of package of opportunities, if you like. And then there was just all these people started asking questions. And there was this guy sat right at the front. I think he had a baseball cap on. You know what David normally does? Who sat there? Is that they're looking at me? And I started to ask tough questions. I was like, who is this guy? And you know, and it was, that was really the start of it. And we just, once Sam came on board, and obviously Sam and David and his team were persuaded with the label. From that point on, it was a campaign really of myself and the BBC studios, the record label, who did a phenomenal job. I'm not sure always get the credit. Parlor phone and Warner International did a phenomenal job with the campaign. Lack school creative, who did all the staging. And then David and his team. And we were the team, if you like, that sort of put that whole campaign together. So we worked really closely then. So obviously everyone stays in the same hotel and we would often go for pizza lunches around the corner and just got on really well. And I think that's how it sort of started, really. So have those conversations sort of-- And we'll touch on 2022 again shortly, but have those conversations sort of continued between the pair of you since '22, obviously, up to the point that we're right now. Well, we stayed in touch, for sure. I think obviously I wasn't involved with 23, 24. Keeping-- you actually said to me, do you want me on the bus? Oh, yeah, yeah. On the way back, it was completely wrecked. I was so tired. We hadn't slept, none of us. The whole team, particularly Sam. And we're on the bus, and it was everyone, like, Riley Lynn and Scott and we're all going back. And Andrew sat next to me and he said, you're going to want to do this again. I said, I am not. That was really good fun, but I'm so exhausted. And then each sort of minute that went by, this sort of enthusiasm kept building up with me, especially in a coming second, which was absolutely right that year, you don't want to come second. And a few times with Sam and campaigns would come second. So they had this-- Number two. Number two. Yeah, it was like, come on, we've got to get the win. So they're kind of burning desire. So I guess we stayed in touch. Well, of course, and of course, Sam came to perform at Eurovision at Liverpool 23s, Interfell Act, and in the intervening years, there's been times where I've done in different TV shows where we've talked about Sam. So yeah, we've stayed in contact. So in the back of my mind, I always knew those this person who was working in the music industry who sort of loves Eurovision. That's good. It's grown to love Eurovision, but most importantly, understands it and understands the reasons, I think, why Sam did so well. And we shared a lot of those same conclusions, if you like. So when the opportunity came up this year this summer to start thinking about 2025, for my point of view, I thought it was really important that we had somebody on board who won, understands Eurovision, and what it takes to do well. What are the reasons a song and an artist will do well. But also someone who's got great experience within the industry and can bring people to us. David's got a great context. Labels, songwriters, publishers. And obviously, I know quite a few of those, but I don't have to the same extent David has. So it was just like this perfect union, I think, really, to work on 2025. And so I gave him a call and we got chatting. And I don't think it took long, did it for you to be-- No, I never actually imagined this. But the idea of being involved again was very exciting. As soon as you called, I was like, yeah, I'm in. Yeah. Don't care what it is, I'm in. Was it, yes, on the initial phone call? Absolutely, yeah, 100%. And when is that initial phone call? How soon after? Almost like immediately. I mean, we're both pretty competitive. And I'm the same as David, you know. That second place in Turin was incredible. And as David said, it was in many ways the right result that year. But what if felt like victory for the UK, of course, after the previous years? So that was quite something. And then obviously, to go on a host in Liverpool was a great and amazing honour in the peak of your career sort of thing. but I guess if I. being completely honest the one thing we haven't done yet is win Eurovision and that is a goal that's we don't set out to do anything either that other than hopefully win so at some point whether it be 2025-26-27 then hopefully we'll go on working together for a few more years yet want to win Eurovision want to bring it back to the UK as winners the previous year that's really interesting what you just said there so this is potentially you would like this to be a well long term might be the wrong word but short term at least for the next few years something that that you do for as you say this year of course but maybe 26-27-28 even the two of you working together yeah I mean I certainly would love to I think obviously results drive a lot of things but from a passion point of view this is you don't get any bigger than this this is where you can exercise all your skill sets and and it's the hardest competition on the planet for music so described as I guess the world cup of music right so yeah if possible yeah I feel the same I mean you know it'll be a privilege to continue doing this and you know obviously our hope is we get a great result this year and we want to continue doing that and I think also like as we've been working this year you know you start to sort of think about different sorts of artists from different musical backgrounds so but you can only put one in this year and I would love this over the next few years to try artists and songs from really different backgrounds different genres of music you know some years be more experimental than others but just try different things but you know be brave with our choices so but you can only do one thing in one year so we would like to continue for a few more years so we can all those things that everyone says we should do I see lots of them and I'd love to do lots of them but you can only do one in one year before we chat properly 2025 David I feel like we need to find out more about you for our listeners because well of course Andrew I listen as well and you know I don't want to leave you out but I listen as well know well know your long history with the original song contest but yeah David of course people know you as a Sam Raider's manager of course but tell us what they need to know about you because you know you've been a you've been a producer seeing a songwriter you've kind of done it all in the music industry the jack of all trades I think they say right um I yeah so I started out as an artist um 17 years old in a band um and I did that for five years I think relatively successfully we had some good good spells um toured with likes like Oli Mirz JLS back in the day and did some arena stuff made an album and then around about the age of 21 I just sort of fell out of love with being the artist and kind of had this idea where because we were quite self-managed and we we we actually launched on my space so this is where we're talking I feel like I show my age now what's worrying is some people listening to it so what is my experience honestly there is that is quite terrifying now but um and mainly then through Facebook and other social media so I kind of like started collecting all this information and a passion for sounds very boring but basically audience acquisition and and growth how do you break an artist how do we break ourselves at the time but then is that adaptable how do you help an artist create so that fell into a passion of management starting my company at 21 and never look back um and it's kind of grown from there where I was hi-bring as a manager and a songwriter producer as you said um where I'd write with my artists we all lived together one point and it was just it was horrendous beautifully I would never recommend this but it was part of the craft of you know we had I live in was a studio my bedroom was a studio so I lived in in a studio for near on three years and kind of just just learnt my craft in and how you produce how you write um what the artist needs how does it feel to be an artist and that's kind of living and kind of stuck with me then building that into the technicalities of management um the technicalities of social media digital marketing so I've got a passion for all areas but I think it's the relatability to the industry and the artist where for me I really enjoy and I thrive um and that is you can fully exercise that within your vision oh it's just going to say one of the reasons I think I love working with David is when we worked on Sam's campaign it was that understanding of how to do a campaign that's what David brought to it if you if everyone remembers back all the European promotion the busking on the streets tied in very cleverly with the green what did you got the green lamp sessions the green lamp sessions that established Sam on TikTok it didn't just happen it was sort of all planned they they knew exactly what they were doing how to get out there how for people to see Sam perform authentically as an artist it was all part of the campaign and the message that Sam put across you know he put across his incredibly positive message from UK artists at Eurovision and that was very much David and Sam together so I was really impressed by that and that's one of the reasons why you know I want to work with David not just because he understands how how an artist will work at Eurovision but the campaign and everything that goes into it as well and David we've touched on 2022 already but what was your sort of experience like from a I've not been to the Eurovision someone tested in that role before for yourself you know you're like is this is this what you expected was it what you expected or was it was it completely different I had no expectations to be honest with you there was no there was no time to think we got approached in is it January January my January was the first time he started talking yeah it was all agreed by early February and I think it was it was probably an extra strange time because we'd not long come out of lockdown um Sam and I've been through this crazy journey of tick-tock sort of uplift and that was a new platform at the time and his social media going wild and then doing the record deal and the publishing deal so it kind of was like spiraling into something bigger anyway so we were getting a bit more used to the the norm of like these things kind of rolling and happening kind of just going with the flow um I guess the expectation we did have was that we knew it was going to be something we knew nothing about and we had to think outside the box adapt very quickly and listen to the people around us think that's what Andrew and I are really connected because that's why I latched onto his spreadsheets and his decks because I was like there's data there's information and uh I grew up from basically being all feel play learned by ear do everything by feeling got reaction and move whereas something that this scale you have to kind of couple it in with you know vast amounts of data and and uh information that's out there um so yeah the expectation really was that it was going to be quite scary um we knew that if we didn't do well that was a possibility that you know for Sam and I could be quite denting in our careers um but that was the fun part that was the we like we both like risk as well we like the you know we were in lockdown let's try something okay we come out lockdown let's do a deal let's try to meet two and we is that kind of we like the flavor of kind of really challenging ourselves to be like all these groups of people kind of saying there's a negative potential impact or stigma around the competition can we change that is it true uh and he smashed it so I think we will remember it with the uh we got points we got points yeah yeah that was it that was I love that attitude because I I've always felt I know people what you know we know the perception for a few years ago amongst the media and a lot of the public was everyone hates the UK never ever believed that we just had to get the right package for your revision and as soon as you know I first heard Sam and first heard space man I thought this this could be it you know we've got the artist the vocals the song and everything else that came with it the performance and the staging and it's like if you it's not easy because if if every country could get that every year everyone would be near the top so if you can nail that as I think we did in 2022 it proved that countries will vote for the UK um so that's what I loved about Sam and his team they went into it with that attitude they really believed it was possible so it was it was great and it was important having a longer time go as well obviously my focus was to try and launch Sam as a global brand um and I think we did a pretty good job of that afterwards you know with everything that followed but so the focus was you know the importance yet if you if you take your version very seriously then it will I think it will treat you kindly back and if you understand what you're walking into and and even with other countries you know the stigma that kind of was around it and we always went in with the fresh mindset everyone treated us so well there wasn't none of that there was no you know everything was was incredibly warming um and made the whole experience apart from the tired non-sleeping part of it very very very yeah really fun I think what you just said there I think that would be like music to the ears of people listening no pun intended you know what you said if you know if you treat your vision I'm gonna absolutely butch or what you just said that but when you said if you treat your vision kindly or if you take your vision seriously or treat you kindly back yeah you have to you know it's you know it's it's a phenomenal opportunity for not even just the artist you know the whole teams and everything involved and the opportunity and the fans are like nothing else out there and that's a real privilege to be able to take that stage whether you're inside it or you're actually on it um and you have to tell us seriously we also had a great team spirit in 2022 you talked about that everybody there whether it was the label whether it was David and Sam and and the team who were on stage with him BBC it just was a really great atmosphere and I think that really helps the artist sort of relax and enjoy it and that's something that we're really hoping for this year as well because I think it sort of shows I think it projects to viewers and to the fans and everyone so yeah it was a great great yeah at Harmony Bank we believe that better happens together we're a locally owned bank built on relationships and personally committed to your success our community bankers are ready to make quick decisions no big bank bureaucracy just a custom approach to help you thrive from business loans to mortgages and everyday banking needs Harmony Bank provides a secure modern experience with a time. Much of Texas hospitality, we're Harmony Bank, we're better, happens together. More than 1.7 million Americans have chosen an alternative called health care sharing. With WeShare Health, you typically pay 40 to 60% less than you would for traditional health insurance, which can add up to thousands of dollars in saving each year, and paying less doesn't mean giving up access to quality care. WeShare members get access to a nationwide PPO network with more than 1 million physicians, plus unlimited telehealth and other resources to help you stay healthy. It's WeShareHealth.org or 1-888-WeShare. Well, I'm 25, I think we've waited long enough to talk about 2025. So you have the first call, which happens almost immediately afterwards, as you've said. And David, you were like, yes, this is something I want to do. How is, and this is something I want to get your perspective on, David, how is Eurovision perceived in the music industry in the UK right now? It's a tough question. I can't speak for everyone, but my viewpoint at this point is that it's now very mixed purely because of, you know, Sam's here, and I think the ups and downs of the results, it starts to skew the strict data of Neil Poit, do you know what I mean? So I think there's a mix, I think there's also, from the learnings this year so far, a lack of understanding, a quite a distance in some respects as well. That was part of the mission this year was to bring that all closer together. And as you do that, you find out there are massive Eurovision fans within the label. It's publishers everywhere, agents. And you find out that there's a lot more interest than maybe, it's kind of like the school disco, you know, where everyone's kind of separated on each side and you're on one side. They're kind of worried, but they don't want to, you know, so I'm kind of in the middle of that. You guys, do you want to just get a little closer together? So that's my silly analogy, but there's a lot of interest. There's a lot of interest. I just think it's quite a terrifying prospect, you know, this big stage and what can happen, but I think there's a lot of intrigue as well. This is exciting. Definitely. I was pleasantly surprised at the warm reception of the intrigue, let's say. So when you told your, you know, your friends, your contacts, your colleagues who work in the industry, you said, oh, just, just at a call from the BBC, Andrew's been on the phone again. I'm going to be part of the search this year, and you know, you're going to do the role that you're doing. Were they skeptical, excited, confused, intrigued? Do you know what I have to say? The response, and they could have been lying to me. So I can only say what they've said to my face, is that it was actually all 100% positive, all excitement and very complimentary. I think that's sort of the comments I got was sort of like, which was sort of scary, like, you're the man for the job kind of thing, and I was like, oh no, I just wanted to do this out of excitement, but now it's pressure. But I think, yeah, it seemed like a really warm reception, you know, everyone that kind of came forward was really excited about the opportunity and been with contacts with a lot of these people for, you know, over 10 years. So yeah, I didn't hear any negative responses. So with the project of this scale, where do you even begin? I mean, I'm still thinking about your revision as a big school disc at the moment, which is such a great analogy. I think what we wanted to do this year was, particularly as we started in the summer, we wanted to sort of cast open the net a little bit, to not just go into it in a narrow way and go, we need to do it like that, we wanted to have an open mind. I mean, so we haven't got time to discuss everything, but, you know, we sort of did everything, you know, we, we started talking about the artists that we liked, the artists that were out there, artists who are sort of, there was a bit of a noise around them, both signed and unsigned. We work within the confines of the BBC and the experiences there. Obviously, there's BBC Music, BBC Radio. We work very closely with the team there, BBC Introducing is a great network of a lot of largely unsigned artists in the UK, I mean, I wasn't doing that yet, but yes they did, I think it was with Molly, wasn't it, back in 2014. Yeah, exactly, it was 2014. So I thought it was important that we, there's a whole network of producers out across the UK who know lots of great artists, so we did a session with them, we explained more about your revision and asked them to suggest artists, which they did, so we looked at some of the artists there, songwriters, publishers, lots of people, David knows. Just a lot of, yeah, just a lot of going out to, to speak to people, really, and just kind of like, I think we talked about a mistake we could have made, I think was going in was help, and I always like to go out was in. It's kind of like, let's get the information, let's draw in all our contacts, let's see what other people think. Yeah. Because it's not really about what we think. Do you know what I mean? It's about, you know, the whole globe at one point. And I think that the, so the starting process was to cast the information and net as wide as possible, but then started to distill it back to basics. What do we need fundamentally to do well within your revision? Yeah. A fun process at the start, just to, just ask questions of people. I think, yeah, as David says, going back to basics is really important. You know, what do we think are the important factors? And some of them are so obvious, and people will go, well, that's obvious. Not everyone gets some right every year, we're not talking about the UK, lots of countries. Your revision now is a contest with outstanding vocals, you know, almost all of those artists that probably get top five year in your life, I've got outstanding vocals. So once we've done this sort of search, if you like, of what was out there, you then had to sort of go, right, okay, who can, who can measure up? Who've got great vocals that, who can perform live day after day during the week? Who can nail it in the jury final? You're very, very aware that, you know, if we want to put an artist, we've got great vocals, that jury finally is so important. And then you need, again, obvious, you need to stand out song. That can mean many things, it can be any sort of genre, to be honest. But your song has to, has to make you feel something, it has to have moments, it has to stand out. So, you know, as part of the process, but to begin with, we were looking at artists, we were looking at vocal ability, and, you know, we went to see artists live, we, you know, what's the step of, can they perform? And then as part of the process going forward, we, you know, we started to shortlist, we shortlisted four or five artists, and we saw them, we heard them, we saw them on camera, we put cameras on them, we wanted to see what they were like on camera, their performance ability, how they come across, we wanted to hear them live, we, we heard potential songs for Eurovision. So, all this was happening before Christmas. Yeah, I think it's just also that it's, it's really important to understand that we talked earlier about the pressures of this environment, you know, with, with Eurovision, that there's performing live, there's performing live a lot, there's performing live and doing radio interviews and TV interviews, then there's performing on TV, and then there's performing on TV a lot. There's so many tick boxes for the artists, they have to be able to cope with, the pressures of interviews, the pressures of social media. So we had to look very carefully at the artists, it wasn't just, you know, amazing vocal, you know, signed on site, it was, that was a starting point, but when you really, really get down to it, how do they deal with camera instructions, how do they feedback on camera? Do you mean like, there's so many things? I mean, looking at the, looking at the quote you gave, David, when, when you, when it was announced that you were, you were part of the team this year, you said, I'm excited to be working with BBC Studios and the BBC on this journey. We're seeking talent in a song that embodies the essence of UK music. We want to collaborate with an authentic act who has a genuine heartfelt story to tell on an unmatched vocal, tonality and range, ultimately, we're looking for a powerful three-minute performance that resonates with and moves audiences across Europe and beyond. That sounds like, and this is a Eurovision-based phrase, Andrew, so there's one for you, maybe. Sounds like a jury-friendly song. Potentially. I think, well, you, I think as a starting point, you need a song that works for the jurors, someone like the UK, and if we, and if we put in place an artist with great vocals, that is one of the criteria for the jury, so absolutely, that's your starting point. And you can get a certain amount of points from that, you know. Lucy Jones, a great example, very, you know, good jury scores, ended up in a good place in the jury. The tricky bit is the next bit, which is how can you take that, and a lot of this then comes from the song and the staging, how can you get the audience and the viewers to vote? And that isn't easy because you're then in a bigger pool of songs and artists, some of which are, I hate to use the term but more novelty-like songs, which naturally viewers are drawn into on the night. So I can confidently say we're not doing a novelty song this year, if anyone's interested in where we are going, but you know, you're- Someone's somewhere. Exactly, exactly. So yes, you've got to hit the jury's first, absolutely, but then you need to just something else. Yeah, but I think I would, and also just to add more trickery into this year from my, I didn't really think about that as the role as well was coming into earlier. So it would sound, we already had a song. So this was a new process, but I think also the, again, that is basic, so there's a starting point. When I get really into campaign, Andrew knows my brain goes, like, so far into these deep ideas, but it has to start somewhere. And the, I find it really interesting how you read the quote, because it's like, I think that, you know, it doesn't mean it's not going to be incredibly exciting. You know, Sam did well in jury and in the, in the, in the televotes as well. [BLANK_AUDIO] comes down to the to the artist, the campaign, messaging, like I said, the story and the feeling. We remember feelings, you know. If you want to do well, you have to do well in both, don't you? You have to do well in both. You can't rely on one. Of course all of Europe, you can't just rely on, you can't rely on a few friendly countries and neighbours, you have to. I think I looked at Sam's result. I think we were, was it 38 countries that year? I think Sam got fewer votes from 34 of them, something like that. So we all know he did this incredible jury, but actually across the telephone, nearly every country in the competition gave Sam points in the view of votes. So that's exactly right. To reach that point, you have to get everybody. And that ain't easy, but it's about getting that kind of next level of interest, isn't it? Because I think we saw that with Oli, you know, yes, didn't get any points with the tele vote, but actually people didn't hate the song. No, no, no, it was, it was huge interest around Oli. And you know, I remember that first day when the, we did the first rehearsal, the staging, that was mass excitement because it was something really different. And it was a statement. And, you know, you want to be making a sort of statement when people first see the performances or the rehearsals. So yeah, I think that the fan tele vote part of it as well as the least, the most unknown part of the process. You don't know what people are thinking from different cultures, different times, things that are going on in the world. They all have an effect on that. So you can't really, you can't control that, you can't really control anything in it, but you can understand things a little bit more, I think. So that's where I'm coming from is what would, what has typically worked in the music industry as well as what's worked for us at that year of year vision. So you've taught us through the process so far. You've got to a point where you've, you know, shortlisted the artist, you've put them on camera, you've put them through their paces. We've got the song on the artist now, right? We do have the song on the artist, yep. We have the song on the artist when? Well, we are now early February. We had the song a few weeks ago, but you know, like any song you're, you're looking to still work on it, improve it, develop it. So, you know, that the song and the artist have not been announced to everyone knows yet because we just want to make sure we have everything in place. You know, you don't want to announce and launch all without everything there. So we're just getting everything into the best place we can really for that announcement. You weren't telling me, I'm sure. I'm going to ask anyway. Did the artist come with the song or did we have the artist and then the song and put them together? We had an artist with several songs and we've worked with the artist on additional songs. We wanted to spend some time to make sure that we've got the song that we, with the artist and the team around them think is the best for your vision. There he goes, a politician's answer for you. It was a very good one. I'm not speaking this bit. Feel free to give another politician's answer to this one, then. An unnamed source or a source that will remain anonymous said that actually when you have the artist, you kind of put the songs in front of a panel of music industry experts to see which one landed best. Is that correct? We've obviously different people have heard the different songs and different artists. So that's been part of our process. But our decision was taken as a smaller group and I think more people are perhaps as informed as possible who we go with. So yeah, that's how it sort of all came about. I think it's important to remember, especially now with me coming into the process, I guess, as well, is that there is a typical kind of music process that happens within A&Ring, for example. So it's very natural to go in and we wanted to involve the industry. That was the point of it and bouncing off ideas because if Andrew and I kind of sat in a room and said, we think this is great. That would be really arrogant, you know, to sort of we weren't two people when it was Sam Ryder's year. There was a massive amount of team. There was an incredible artist. There was songwriters, labels, etc. So that's only natural to do that process. You're A&Ring at rapid speed as well. How important was it for the two of you that you found an artist who was enthusiastic about the Eurovision project and how much of that played into the selection process for the two of you? You know, we've seen that with Sam who was massively, well, Sam's enthusiastic about everything obviously. He had an extreme passion for Eurovision and great knowledge as well. And Ollie, you know, you've already touched on massive Eurovision fan and we've seen artists in the past who maybe have differing relationships with the Eurovision before they take to the stage. I can't speak for you, but for my point of view, it's very, very important, I'd say, you know, you have to be in love with the process and to be able to go through the full motion of it, I think. It's an appreciation of what you're letting yourself in for to some degree. I think if you understand what's involved because you love the contest, you don't go into it blind, you know, and I think that's important, it really helps. And if you do love the contest as we have had with Sam and with Ollie and other artists through the years, it just means I think you're going to enjoy it more. And you know, so many of those artists that I've worked with over the years, you know, even those that haven't always had the best results, they've all largely come out of it having loved the experience and we'll go to Eurovision pre-parties and go to the events that go on because they've just had a great experience and we've always tried to keep it as positive as possible. So I think if an artist loves it, it makes it all the more enjoyable for all of us. And there is a badge of honor as well, you know, like I think that is really important to the competition for the fans and everyone's watching and the energy of the internal team as well. Really, really important. I must say that the two of you doing an excellent job of having yet not, of having not yet said he's she, then. I'm just looking in the corner. We trained ourselves. Now, I mean, you know, we cause because we know there's so much speculation out there and we see all the all the sorts of rumors and how correct some of that speculation be. I'll tell you one thing. And it's made something maybe small. A couple of weeks ago, there was a rumor doing the rounds, which was that the UK artist was going to be announced after the final for Traders, which I have to say in honesty, what a great idea. Well indeed, exactly although it would be less surprise now to have unclogged the the artist after Traders would have been a sensational idea. But I'm afraid to say it was never never the case with never the plan. You know, we we we was as we've just explained we've you know, we've still been working on the process. We weren't ready to do that. So I'm sorry because I, you know, that was a great would have been a great idea. So yeah, there's of course there's loads of rumors out there. And if the BBC spent time responding to every rumor, our poor press team in particular would be doing nothing but responding to it. Oh, we've heard it's this person or these people are coming together. I really haven't focused on either. I just we've been working, you know, and we really want to get this as right as possible, obviously. And this is a difficult process and one would take an extremely seriously. So it's kind of I've just been blind as on. Talk to me about the moment you told the artist that they were doing Eurovision for the UK. The artist was very, very, very excited. Yeah, I mean, I can't say much more than that, other than just genuinely thrilled, genuinely thrilled, emotional moment. I'd say it was. It really was. Was it a phone call? Was it in person? It was it had to be for that particular day over zoom. But so we saw the instant reaction. Yeah, I'm careful. I'd say too much, but very, very excited. Yeah. And the song. We have seen a lot of pop from the UK Eurovision recently. We've seen pop too very well at Eurovision recently. Understandably, of course, we've seen so many different songs when the contest recently. What can you say about the song? Can you describe the song in in if it was going to give you three words? Possibly. Can I just ask you a question? You can. I'm interested in your definition of pop. That is a good question. Especially in our current. Back out yet. Yeah, nicely done. Right back at your rob. And any examples of winning songs that you think aren't pop? Yeah, I mean, I suppose Manashkinna rock pop. I would say for me, my definition of pop is something that's that's up tempo, that's joyous, that's fun in the Eurovision genre. Got it? Okay, nicely answered. I think it's quite subjective over the time. Pop now is such a broad spectrum of kind of music, so I'm just interested. Three words to describe the song. This is like one of those training courses that you have to describe yourself in three words. I'll let you think about the three words. I guess what we. You're doing a great job of not giving these three words. No, but I'll tell you, yeah, no, exactly. I'll tell you maybe what it isn't, maybe. What we're doing this year is a different sort of style and sound to the last couple of years. So if you can, obviously, you know, last couple of years, been more like dance pop, I guess. Different sort of influences, but we are doing something different to that. There's a hint. That was good. That's something for you. That was good. Well done. Yeah, I think the three words thing is difficult, but I think. I think my quote says it about going back to the UK heritage of music threads of what we do best, and I think we've encapsulated that. So. There's an essence of Britishness. Yeah, definitely. I think the world wants to see that. There's things that we do very, very well. Music is very, very broad, but we do it very, very well, and that's what we wanted to bring to the table. Next, of course, is the reveal. Correct. People are listening to this very sort of February. Yeah, how long? of they got to wait. Well it can't be too long because we have to reveal by I think it's the tenth of March isn't it? So we're looking at within the next four weeks or so. I know, I apologize. Apologize to all your listeners. Yeah, we want to make a splash when we announce obviously and that's the plan and we just as you say we just want to get everything in place and to do that. So I know everyone's excited. I mean I love hearing songs from other countries too. But we just have to hold hold on there and make sure we have everything in place to as we think to just do the best possible announcement and launch. So I'm sorry we can't tell you today but you know it'll you'll know soon enough. Everyone will know soon enough. We touched on how important for Sam in 22 that whole promotion campaign was before Eurovision and I think fans get very excited and are very pleased when they see you know the artist performing maybe around Europe before the contest doing that promotional work. Is that the plan for this year? Is the plan for them to do that sort of concerted promotional effort for 25? I think there has to be this fight tool as you said and I think it's in Sam's year we couldn't get to enough countries it's just time you know but I think it's important that you meet as many of the as the fans as possible for the artist to feel it and in different countries and cultures as well is is very important. So yeah 100%. It looks good experience also putting yourself out there you know in these if you take the pre-parties for example you know several thousand people in sort of you know arms to dam Madrid different sort of environments different quality of sound it's it's it's a good experience to put yourself through it because it just leads up to where you're going really and you're starting to get a sense of the pressure just starting to get a sense if an artist doesn't already know how passionate the fans are just go to Madrid pre-party I mean the Spanish fans are so passionate so it's a really good opportunity for people to gauge okay this is what's coming my way. How available is that artist for promotion before your revision? This is a way of trying to find out if they've got other tours in the plan so people can check online we will make the artist will be available for lots of the promotion yeah I'm staying silent and then what you're doing last couple then from me obviously you've said what the song what you've said what the song isn't but also a bit about what the song is how are those ideas forming now for obviously the look and feel of what we're going to see on that stage in Basel. Yeah I mean that's what we're doing right now that as you can imagine staging for me is like the icing on the cake if you've got the great song and a great artist how you present it is the next next thing so that those conversations are happening now we're talking to different creative directors about about our song and our artist and we will we will see what we get and obviously that's what we'll be we'll be working with and again another politician's answer I do apologize I didn't expect you to be on the full page don't worry. Final question then why will 2025 be different? Another good question it's a really good question. Oh it's a difficult one's answer today how long have we got? No pause the record for two minutes why would 25 be always why will 25 be different? Why will 2025 be different? Why will fans UK fans be more why will UK fans have a smile on their face after the grand final in 2025? Well I would say I mean we they've denied taken a very specific approach this year we've there's been certain fundamental things that really matter for us in terms of why we choose an artist in the song and I think we're we're keeping to that I don't think it'll be hopefully the result will be different from the past couple of years that's a simple thing to say but I actually think this is a this is like what's the word it's like a progression of the last few years if I'm honest I think you know regardless of different results we've had since sort of 21-22 I think people would at least acknowledge that the BBC in the UK have definitely taken it more seriously across the BBC across the industry and and that is something that we are just trying to build and build and obviously our aim is to get a good result this year and if that happens brilliant and then that will just keep us moving forward because we want to be one of those you know I think people describe don't they the powerhouses of Ukraine Italy Sweden that's that's our goal yeah that's what we should be looking at there's a conversation I was like if it I think potentially a one word answer would be consistency like the process and everything we're doing to put in place was to to figure out well you know you can't always figure out what works and what doesn't you know but there is a baseline of things that you can kind of rely on that you know can do a certain job and I think that is what we're really bringing to the table as well the energy of that consistency the whole thing is a thread that has to have a forward movement that's what we had in 2022 that's the energy you get the ball of energy you get that last moment is that fire of the last few months pushing to that three-minute performance that's what we're pushing towards that's why we've been so meticulous that's why we're waiting on the you know the announcement all these things are really really important to the process so I think the difference is a very boring word say consistency I've just realised I'll take that consistency we're back but I think like it's the it's the detail as well and everything is that so yes we hope the result can be very different but some people that don't play so well have phenomenal results you know outside you can look at you know snap for example is is a global hit record so it's kind of also the marker on what is the success and so I think the energy will be different Andrew David you've left us intrigued for what 2025 has in store I'm sure we won't have to wait long until we find out that artist and song and hopefully we can have you back on the podcast to chat more on the road to Basel and in Basel itself as well so thank you so much for being available thank you and also Rob can I thank you as well the way you turn the podcast because I mean I listen to it most weeks as I think you know and I think the way you do with the team and with James and Cullen before you provide this incredible service for the fans people really love it and I thank you for that because I know you do it in your own time so just to my personal I appreciate because it's really great job you do so thank you thank you both really really appreciate it and I didn't pay them to say that no you didn't and I hope you keep that in your today because I do mean it yeah yeah we've got the cookies to prove it yeah oh well Andrew David thank you so much thank you a reminder then you are listening to the Euro trip podcast I'm Rob Lilley Jones and you've just heard me in conversation with Andrew Cartmell and David May the team behind the UK search for our artist and song for Eurovision 2025 and I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did when I was there chatting to the guys it was an absolute honor to be invited to the BBC to have that conversation and I really think we got an awful lot out of that didn't we there are so many rumors around about who is representing the UK and who knows the rumors may be true I genuinely don't know if they are or not but I think that was a really interesting conversation and even if the rumors are true I think we found out more about the song and what type of song we're sending to Basel which I think is really interesting it was really interesting to hear about David and why he feels so passionately about the Eurovision project so good to hear from Andrew just responding of course to a few questions about Eurovision 2024 but also how he is still so motivated to bring the UK a great result in 2025 having worked on Eurovision for the BBC and for the UK for so many years now and he's still inspired like he still wants to do it and he still wants to bring the UK a good result and he still wants to win Eurovision but it is brilliant brilliant to hear that passion and hopefully it will translate to a good result for the United Kingdom in Switzerland in May if you've got any thoughts on what you've just heard then please get in touch I'd love to hear from you at your a trip podcast on Twitter Instagram TikTok Blue Sky and Threads for all of your longer messages you can send those over on hello at your a trippodcast.com on the email if you're new haven't heard us before stick around we're here every week normal service will be resumed next week we've got loads to talk about loads of songs have been selected loads of songs will be selected by the time we speak to your next loads of news happening in the world of Eurovision and you might like it so stick around we've got a new episode of Malfe's Friday coming on Friday send a couple of days time and then also a really special bonus episode ahead of UMK on Saturday so you've picked a good time to start listening if you're new if you're a regular listener I hope you enjoy what we've got to come over the coming days weeks and months on the road to Basel that was an absolute treat got a few thank yous to say firstly to Callum Row of course a long time colleague here on the a trippodcast who has done a brilliant job writing up some exclusive stories over on your trippodcast.com thank you to Adrian Bradley who joined me at the BBC and recorded that interview massive thank you to Adrian and a big thanks as well of course to the BBC team who made this possible so thank you to Chris McCloskey to Gabby Crawford to Gail Sullivan and of course to Andrew Cartmell and David May so thank you for listening I hope you enjoyed it leave us a rating and a review if you haven't already review it listening subscribe so you don't miss our next episode and as I already said there is loads to come over the next few days and weeks as well I think that interview may have made a few waves I think people are going to be talking about what you've just heard so join that that conversation online. and thank you so much for being here, really appreciate it, and as I say normal service, we'll be receiving next week, I'll see you then, and until then, bye bye! 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