Except for the Sound of​.​.​. QE2 by Mike Oldfield

It's December 30th, welcome to the last episode of the Michael To Discography podcast for this year with an album which is the year 23, 2020? Yes, sorry, 2023 I'm talking about and the first album of the 1980s for Mike and QE2 So for me, just on the appreciation level, this album ranges between very nice but pleasant and one of this great works Mark was what the importance of this album has for you, where would you say it? So first of all, we need to know it's only about 30 minutes of his music Yes and two cover songs and so it's very brief, it is kind of like very very special I find because it's the first of a trilogy of releases that has some instrumentation and musicians in common and that's why I see it's sort of I mean in a way like we talked about Platinum last time where it has really the beginning of something new but then actually it was not really it's sort of like a turning point you could say and now we get something new again and the inclusion of a new producer here I think plays a big role in how this album kind of like came out to be because as it turns out like David Henshel also and he says that in an interview that somewhere is also contributing arts so which really as we kind of like said and like Platinum was the first time that musicians had some sort of freedom to add something to my compositions and yeah I mean I love the album I love QE2 it has a very very unique sound and it's like overall it's like it's it's an extremely cool musical statement right but I also understand where some people may have a hard time getting into it it's um I think you say it's part of a trilogy I think to me it's sort of the beginning of a longer phase in his work there are elements of music which come like which he introduces over the over in in this period between 1981 and 1983 which keep reappearing on on his albums up until QE2 I think there's a long phase where it's almost you could almost imagine there being one big session and then using him using the ideas and themes across a wide range of different settings in his work that's interesting I'd like to hear what you mean by that well for example there's there's a look back at the beginning of this album in QE2 and then there are elements which come themes which come on crises on five miles out is I think one section which is actually verbatim sample sample on one of course of course of course you'll see it's tower tors one tors two tors three on QE2 five miles out and crisis so so there's that and I think that that one sample even comes up and or themes of come up in heavens open at the beginning of the 90s I think Amor Rock is so big that at this point I couldn't even say what but I know that for example that there were elements in Amor Rock which he which were conceptualized with Morris Perth with Michael ideas which he mentioned in an interview that they were listening to I think street musicians with some influences from the Middle East I think and then he was talking to Morris Perth about this so this the team of musicians on this album influenced his thinking and his music making to a large degree over the next decade and in a way this this phase is longer than then his more famous phase probably in the 70s so I think when people think of Michael's within saying he as we discussed this before he lost his way I think it's that's ironic because actually this phase is more representative of his music in a way than the early phase yeah yeah exactly like what you know as we were saying put platinum like he started to branch out and explore all sorts of possibilities and options that he has also as a kind of like in a way and that's why I still think I love this work and his attitude so much rather than like obviously going for you know the idea to make a hit record with kind of a lot of exceptions maybe he was always kind of using or utilizing his wealth to actually try new things and so with QE2 there are a couple of things that I find interesting say like saying called Torres 123 over those three albums right also there you can also go by the use of musical instruments right so the very first time you hear banjo in a Michael Fittu and his in Torres one QE2 right then you you hear it you hear it on five months out on Torres two there's a banjo and on crisis you hear the banjo and shadow on the wall as a kind of like rhythm guitar part which is which is super cool and and you mentioned the vocoder already which made an this first the first appearance on QE2 and five months out and then later on really not so much right yeah so the reprise of the vocoder sound kind of like came in on or I'm a rock the banjo came back in the encore of tubal dance two right moonshine yeah right so so I think that and maybe you're you're right you know because of that so that this face maybe spent around a decade or a little more you know whereas the first seven years right first seven years and then the second phase maybe was almost two times seven yeah almost 14 years going up to like 94 right isn't seven years the the cell renewal cycle it is like that and I sort of like looking at yeah processes in those with those seven with that seven new framework yes I mean so if you like okay so some things I can say here there are two pieces on QE2 which are obvious developments of music that he only had played live before the album was released and this is this super interesting so for example mirage track mirage is a development of the middle section of the track platinum you will only kind of like realize when you listen to the live version of it which is the the live recording which comes with the deluxe edition of of platinum there is actually the full backing track let's say like without the melody off mirage insert it into platinum so that comes from that and so and like okay where does Taurus Taurus the Taurus theme the Taurus idea come from it's actually a development of the opening section of tubular bells believe it or not you can hear that the net worth in the net worth version you can hear that they they take the tubular bells opening theme I turn it into 44 and I think Tim Cross is kind of like playing this little variation of that theme and yes it is in fact that which is the opening section of the main theme of the Taurus pieces I think it becomes more obviously for listen to the bass I think it's to me I always hear it in the bass yeah it's the but it's but it's everything it's everything yeah so and then again you can say yes it's also a development of the beginning of platinum because platinum was also a variation of the beginning that's how I see it yes yes yes and then I like that the way that he has used the deep in Taurus 2 on fuck myself is that it is the the climax of the little song the deep deep sound and and and and sort of like not really kind of like bringing it back as a main theme but as sort of like a conclusion within a bigger picture picture and here Taurus 1 really has some interesting really super interesting features for me so for example like as a as a musician myself and sort of like a musicologist when it comes to analyzing music I kind of like like to kind of understand how my compose is what the complexity level is let's say of things he does and he has certain high points in the complexity of his work and one one one is going to be mounted on fuck knows out for example but in Taurus 1 there's actually one of the most complicated and really nonsensical musically nonsensical in this in the in a in a in a historical context section of like like really like the most complex than he's ever written is in Taurus 1 and I find that fascinating because the album like does not really communicate that on a whole it has that this really I have to say amazing sort of like transparent synthetic almost plasticky kind of sound with with this amazing you know as I say combination or even connection of acoustic and electronic elements where like it took me years to actually like realize that there's there's acoustic guitar on mirage I mean it's super obvious but like when I was starting out like it really sounded so alien this combination of of a brass section and drum machines and synthesizers you know like Jim Crosswall also plays a big role in the in the life band of the time and who brought it I guess the Taurus bass pedal yes which plays a big role on this record like and so my Taurus like maybe there's even like you know a connection there we don't know Mike is by Gisattaurus I think it's pretty obvious that is that he's playing that exact pedal on that track yes and there is actually a Taurus 1 and then there is a Taurus 2 pedal which came out exactly at that time okay so the Taurus 1 was I think in 1980 and the Taurus 2 came out in 1981 the Taurus 3 came out in 2010 I think so that one means it's a bit bit yeah Taurus 3 of the track is also very different it's very different yes so and there is and I should mention there is a British famous British engine airplane engine which is called Taurus 2 okay which I don't think is on coins and I think it's probably a coincidence but I think it's something he was probably aware of and which he probably some of the things he could have loved these sort of this this these coincidence yes yeah of course which which is this path that you mentioned though which I think is so complex and almost at the point of being it's the it's the third section so it's like we have the the Taurus kind of theme with yeah with which is sort of like a combination of of three different melodies the first one the mandolin melody that one doesn't really make reappearance anywhere in an obvious way also it's kind of it's door it's in the door in mode for those who are interested in that which is rarely might actually rarely use it's it but he's I know that he's very aware of it because he's sometimes in live versions changes the modality of his music right but so it's it's that Dorian thing and the pentatonic baseline and the melody that make it really sings and then like as we've discussed about incantation where it's like moving things around the circle of fifth he kind of like keeps doing that but he stays within you know three steps so he doesn't doesn't go further than three and so if you like overlapping three pentatonic scales you get like this this what that basically does is like you know if you're just transposing stuff up in fifth and down in fifth you get sort of like very ambiguous movement so that means you can go between those three chords and it's like the same thing that blues does right so and so it's kind of ambiguous it stays within the within the same home base but you could always feel any one of those tonalities as the one chord and and that that sort of like he takes advantage of that and so that first section is followed up by this beautiful civil melody right and which is also one of like kind of like an overload jam somehow I think it's one of the most gorgeous yeah it's unbelievably great right like and and so he's using like the most basic musical elements there to to create something so powerful than the section after that which is rhythmically kind of like I think it's in 13 or something so you could if you think of it like you know okay what has he done before like incantations we had 11 and then here he goes to 13 interesting right and but it's in a in this tribal groove setting and you don't you don't hear it as an odd time signature and it's it's really fascinating and then he has like these these these changes and this melodic development which is very much before like really like a lack of a better description like the most jazz he ever went right so and with these these parallels shifting off of chords and stuff like that and it's really it's really so incredibly fascinating this whole construction and and this also this like this thinking more in terms of like musical blocks where then suddenly there's like a unison phrase which is sort of like you could say like a has sort of a medieval feel and then it goes back to the vocoder like solo vocoder on top of a rhythm session and and it's really really really special this track and I think the very first fade out ever on his records do you think that something followed that in the studio it's I just I think it's perfect the way it is I also think if it if it had gone on for long it would have been really interesting to see where it would have gone I think I think that well I what do I know I don't know anything but the Torres Monde and the track QE2 they connect they would have connected perfectly there is I don't think that wouldn't even have to be anything in between I thought about that and and and and now just I have never checked really about playing it back in my head now the ending of Torres one at the beginning QE2 I think they would just connect I would love to hear that from maybe David Henshel maybe you would know I don't know yeah I'm sure you you know it's it's a it I don't I think the fade out has a certain quality which fits this particular album also but that is a different discussion I think it it seeks beautifully into she gave up and which of course the the theme is already introduced in Torres one that's why I love Torres one so much it seems like an opening to this entire journey that is the next 10 decades 10 years but the sheba thing is already in there yes but it seems to be like an early fade out I just thought I think it could have gone on for a little bit longer yeah in in a way that that theme which is that they at the end of Torres Monde was just a theme of or one of the themes of QE2 is sort of like the kind of thing that just keeps going forever as it's it's also like one of these potential things that could modulate all the time right and end up in any key and any spirituality so and that's why I feel like probably it was conceived those two pieces were actually one at some point yeah I thought about it as well because especially I think that just in my personal opinion I think that the title track doesn't really sit that well where it is on the second side I just I think the second side has a different it has a different thing than the other tracks on the second side I don't know maybe yeah yeah I mean I agree and it's it's kind of an album of miniatures you could say which would be one way to describe that album would be one way of seeing it I probably see it differently but I'd also see it I think it's both yeah yeah yeah no I don't mean that in any bad way it's just like a collection of miniatures in the sense that piece is also short right so she about for example is sort of sort of the prototype for for an instrumental song that we're still using the voice right with very clear just just a and b sections there's nothing else and sort of like this this and in a way I mean like we we hardly ever talk about what we sometimes do my guess a pioneer but like the combination of the electronic drums with the acoustic drums that is really super special at especially at that time like the combination of those sounds I mean only one two three years later stuff like that was all over the place but in 1980 like the this sort of like combination of these warm analog synthetic sounds with with and in this case like Phil Collins right playing the drums like the highly produced sound that's really really special a kind of I don't want to even say it but kind of out of place but makes it that's what makes it so great I can talk about that more length later because I of course I came from electronic amazing from electronic music and but but QE2 to me has always felt like almost like an electronic album even though it isn't I think it's really at the cusp because of course platinum in a way with his love affair with disco and disco sound especially at its peak like it's the end point where it was going to at the end of the 70s it can sound like electronic music 1975 don't know summer love to love you baby it sounds like a piece of electronic music especially with all these long passages where the rhythm just gets looped but it's not electronic music it's just the band playing and then splicing everything together and looping it but and disco music then turned in then took that direction it actually became electronic music and this is where it is but of course it he doesn't actually go full synth pop but he actually combines it with his own stuff which is what makes it so unique and actually a lot of his folk kind of sensibilities making appearance and there's in the strange new environment that's why this passage you mentioned the second passage of Taurus 1 is so unique to me where he actually comes out from the this this rocking this rock section and he goes and it's just just the the drum machine and a few acoustic elements and you can imagine the drum machine not being then it would be a classic my goldfield piece but it's there and it it just it opens up this space and I think it really it's just a foil for it to him to weave his lines around exactly and that's that's also kind of like related to the production techniques of the time actually in five months out the tractor 2 has the drum machine running through from the beginning to the end right and and with that high pitched almost like metronome yeah I think we mentioned that before actually at some point already you know what was fascinating to me to read now was that Q2 actually was the number one selling album in Germany in 1980 or 80 80 probably the year I think it was the release was an 80 so that's why that's why well we will have to look that up and but anyway like just just the fact that it was such it was only a number 12 in the charts but it was the best selling album of the year and you know like I have a memory now of actually manual gushing of astronaut tempo talking he was he was a guest on a radio show a child then shot the little yeah all of the moment no no no no no no no no wind free tank like Trinidad swing on a swing on a sorry Trinidad was the name of the show which I started listening to around like maybe 82 or something and viral gushing was there as a guest and they were talking about my old field and like how much of like an influence not just influenced like you know like a man always actually aiming to be like my old fields can you believe that and he actually mentioned Q2 as one of his favorite favorites of the time yes so what that means what you just said is he was touring this album extensively in Germany yet there were I think 10 to 15 days I can play in Münster where I lived at the time and not the time I lived later on and Frankfurt really the entire country and what it means the tour was at 81 right the album was released in okay so but it was go out just just just just just to it was the selling of 81 then and it means essentially that everyone who visited that one of his concerts bought the album yeah that's what it means it must have been such and and I think what is in what was interesting to me is that in the UK it was not a big success and his even though he would continue to sell well I mean crisis obviously so well everywhere but he continues so well there his his fan base shifted from the UK to mainland Europe we talked about Spain last time especially to Germany discovery was huge in Germany as well and I checked Q2 wasn't huge in Spain interestingly yeah I saw that a lot yeah so there is I mean there's been lots of talk about how this was a commercial so some some think it's an effort to become become more commercial I just think it's he clearly recognized that the times were changing and he was interested in what was happening around him and I think also the this idea of shorter tracks I think it's something he did do consciously but what is what is so great about Q2 is that he's he's this is an album of shorter tracks but they but they are connected and there is there is lots of use utilization of themes across different tracks and actually I think if you edit the first side just slightly differently you actually have a complete long piece to me the first side of Q2 is more coherent than the first side of platinum in a way it's I feel right you know there's just in the way the pieces flow it just feels like this feels like a like one big piece just presented as a suite yes yeah exactly and like a piece like like a conflict which is which is a suite suite of pieces right how is it priced so many people dislike that piece I think it's amazing oh it's yeah it's incredible it's just an incredible composition it's so cool in on so many levels like I said he brings in this and and that's really maybe like one of the really first big shifts where he's using like this idea of unison values which I mean I have to like obviously on two will belts you had one unison section which is the the big base section like five six minutes into the the first part right first side but like this this unison runs that is really special and then combined with sections which are again like fully like polyphonic or homophonic the use of the keyboard player as an orchestra which is David Cross's influence here right and as you say like the bass pedal as as a musical instrument that is sort of like taken into consideration for the for the composition of the parts like where there is like on conflict there's bass guitar and this bass right yeah yeah it's it's and I think you want to mention another piece which was special to you on the album well you see like special like it's all special I love Mirage a lot there is the live version on the the complete compilation which is utterly magical and you know I ended up playing a version of that piece with with Stickman we played that for a few years so Mirage is totally magical just this stick again on it Mike developing his style to go like where people were already calling him minimal he went more into that direction like he said okay let's just take one measure of music right and make a composition of that simply by shifting the harmonies around that's what Mirage is right so it's it's I find it fascinating how he went like more minimal never but never simple that's that's sort of like the interesting thing about it and then there is like maybe my one of my favorite short pieces of his which is Molly which is the Lallabai first first born daughter which is actually and again like I don't know if it's just these things on purpose but it's sort of like it's an exercise in four part harmony like it's actually four parts playing polyphonic and it's a perfect you could sing it perfectly with a choir it's so beautiful and so yeah so moving and just just like in terms of the arrangement again using the vocoder as a as a vocal lead instrument and like his his very unique bass tone which is very very how should I say unassuming on this record it's kind of like you would now as he would call it thin sounding but it's not thin it's sort of like a stylistic choice where the bass kind of like makes an appearance in a bigger in a bigger structure just like when he introduces bass guitar or when you know on the finale of two rebels sang one like there you have bass guitars going and then you have a bass guitar playing a melody on top right and he's sort of like kind of like plays with this like how the music is staggered in space and how the instrumentation kind of like goes from low instruments to high instruments and kind of like reverse it the rolls somehow also like foreground and background stuff and and this is the first album where you could see in the production a lot of attention to detail also for the panning for instruments yes like like you have like the in the beautiful like second section of Taurus 1 the beautiful melody where you have that question and answer thing and you have the the answers like like three notes on the right side three on the left and then it kind of like doesn't follow any any any fixed pattern you can see like every note is placed differently somehow and it's just so beautiful and and sort of start and then here you're right again sort of like starts his second second phase creative phase where he is using the studio really as a musical instrument and where the the music kind of like relies on the balance of the of the sounds very much and the the panning and stuff right balances is a big big factor in in orchestration composition as you know like yeah you can write you can write a harmony but that if the harmony is too loud it becomes the lead right and this is this is something where he's always I find in those 80s come about what might mean throughout his whole career but like he really found like the perfect balance really of of bringing the right thing into the focus of the listener while a lot of the complexity kind of like state hidden yes to the casual listener I agree I think it would be really interesting to talk today potential for us about his role on the album I've thought about this a lot because I agree that this album has a unique sound it has it has it has a very different sound than five miles out in crises and although it comes earlier if you listen to today it sounds more modern than the than those two yes which is a more modern you could say more futuristic more futuristic or more of our current time somehow what happens on this album seems to be more relevant today than what then the albums which follow which maybe it doesn't have to do with the music being more modern but but I just this almost this orchestral electronic idea which he pioneers here I mean which he doesn't for whatever reason doesn't come back to until the 90s that that beautiful passage we've been talking about that could almost have been something on the songs of this nerd yeah you know yeah it has that feeling and you know that's that's part of what I mean with him going minimal yeah like the idea that he just kind of like um from like this idea of like where some people say pompers or blown up kind of stuff he goes to just accord and emolody yeah like not even a bass part just just accord and emolody what which he then kind of as you say kind of like reintroduces yeah the salsa of disinert right but yes you are absolutely wrong that that kind of style makes its first appearance here and the album does sound great and it's interesting that David Henshaw he just actually he was probably children because he'd just been super successful with Genesis yes and I don't know how familiar you are with his albums I'm not that super familiar with them but they're very they were they were always heavily criticized for their sound and many people still today would argue that some of those sound horrible I don't think that's true I think they have it of the sound of their time and it somehow that has an atmosphere which is unique but if I'm told the honest I have the suspicion that the mic mix this album it didn't wasn't that dilated Henshaw did it because it sounds very very different um if you if you go back to the to the vinyl record which is really I think you should have to do with this album um I think the the remaster isn't bad um but actually even the the flat trance the flat trance for CD which I also have sounds better and the vinyl sounds so much but it has more space it has less um just maybe just slightly less analytical um sound but it has so much more space which the for example the drum computer um which I can talk about more if if it's not so interesting but the the the the CR78 has this it comes it has this unique and instantly recognizable sound but it has a lot of space and a lot of punch and the snare is really cut through and um some of these people who think it's it hasn't been better um actually it also has a unique swim and I think you need that vinyl the vinyl to actually bring that out or maybe just a better remaster on CD wasn't that I think it was actually not remastered um or mastered at the time I think all of these on we're not mastered platinum wasn't mastered was that mastered for airborne in the US but not but do not the original okay so I think it is actually Mike's mix yes um so it's really him working and I think he chose a henchal probably because the the was one of the few producers who was both familiar with working with orchestra and um and rock and pop music and soul music he had lots of different and he was a keyboard player and he was a keyboard player yeah right so which at that time was like a really big thing in the studio to sort of like like understand how you can sync up like an appegeator or whatever I don't know like that because that was pre-medie times yes there was no way to easily kind of like connect things and have them sync up so um yeah so yeah I mean I don't know much about the henchal at all interestingly enough but I remember and like maybe I remember it wrong but that he also produced an anti-summers album at some point I think so he also produced TV one or at some point really well I didn't know although I have to look up how much of it that although I think actually the the genesis time was probably his peak yeah in terms of commercial success yes yes and I mean like here's something else so you said like maybe the producer was chosen blah blah blah for whatever reason we don't know if we don't even know how much of it was Mike's personal choice or like a committee thing with a with a record company with virgin like um it's quite possible that there were suggestions from and even maybe from friends you know you know um the the choice to include two cover songs right it's kind of odd yes um and I don't know if we've talked about this in this format already but there's always been the interest of by publishers to push certain songs to be covered by successful artists to kind of like have some sort of sort of cross-pollination you could say and also just to make money right and um even though I believe that Mike really loves arrival yes right I'm sure because it sounds like an all-fretune in the place it sounds more like an all-fretune than this cover version yes and um and um obviously like even like he being like a fan of the was it Hague Marvin right yes the shadows yeah so um that that choice of like wonderful that is wonderful that is an extremely wonderful composition it's so cool and just to see that Mike kind of like sees these things knows these things and kind of like you know decides at this point in his career to kind of like take another step away from him being the the main guy again it doesn't matter if it was completely conscious or deliberate or you know or some other forces won't they but just like in hindsight it's such a it's such a beautiful statement I have sort of an idea about how this I'll be the genesis of this album or genesis sorry um I don't know if you agree or not but this album this so first of all the entire 80s period is badly documented through in not only interviews in in in his autobiography it's it has a few pages that's it even crisis is hardly mentioned at all um the interviews at the time for whatever reason are not particularly detailed we don't know much about how these pieces came about um we do know that Kyrgyzhu was recorded very in a very short span of time it was recorded in the summer of that year and finished um sometime in the autumn and then I think in between two tours probably um it seems like to me that the difference between platinum and this one is platinum was really it was working on that material live a lot and then it came on the record and was constantly changed about um with this one I think it was recorded after tour but with few exceptions you've mentioned some of the pieces which were developed on tour but I think this is one in a period of touring but not necessarily using material which was representative of what he was doing live um there was certain like the technological developments it was he was playing Omadon with um with the with the rhythm computer for example yes and stuff like that but other than that it seems to be different and I think to me it always seems like a bit of a sketchbook in the sense that he was there was lots of ideas going to his mind and I think he wanted to put them down quickly and then maybe return to them later in more detail so this album has sort of this this this maybe by why some of the pieces are short because he presents them as the original ideas I think to be aware there were also lots of smaller pieces and then he seeks them into one big thing and um and here it's he leaves the ideas for what they are and then puts them together which which which is by this has such a unique charm um each of the pieces has sort of um the typical buildup this I think one of the great things about this one is that you get lots of finale's on on Q2 you don't get one big finale at the end of a long piece you get lots of smaller finale there's lots of build-ups two big things um but it's within short periods like shorter tracks um and actually he sees about the combat version of of um arrived he said that at the end of the period of recording Q2 he came a couple of pieces short I don't know what the other one is but arrived was born and he asked Simon Draper what would he recommend what would there be a piece he could uh he could cover and Simon Draper according to Mike's recollection at the time suggested arrival and that apparently is how it got on there um yeah so it fits beautifully at the end of it sits great at the end of the first side but um still Alba would it's like it's an it's an unusual choice and um I think it really maybe wouldn't have gone for it if he had had enough material but probably the time there was that maybe the tour was coming up maybe he wanted to finish it it was recorded quickly and I think it has this sort of um there's an energy in this album I think it many see it as sort of a nice and pleasant album it's an energy I see the energy in every single piece there's so much positivity you see if we if we really um assume that maybe tours one and Q2 were one piece yes then that would have made one side right because right now it's like 17 and 18 minutes yeah like those two pieces together which is perfect for one side um and maybe that's what the original plan was um so in a way you know we always what we kind of we say that the this idea of like one long piece per side and then the short to pieces on the other started with five months out a little bit you know actually not really with uh with crisis and then was repeated and again not exactly uh with this cover but um but then repeated again with islands um sort of like it the start of that is already Q2 but it ended up being edited and cut apart and um and that maybe was the um the reason why the cover pieces or the second cover literally like you say a rival kind of like made made it's a appearance in this I mean like if you if you can you can think of and this is what I like about you can think of this album as sort of like you really could think of it as short of ideas yes but it's not no it's not and like these like like um a piece like conflict so dense in a way right uh also like uh conflict when it was played live they played it twice it was so short it means only like two minutes fifty seconds or something on the album um in life they played it twice and so the first round they played like the full-on version and then the second time around they played a quiet round of it which is so cool um but anyway yeah you you know mirage like I say is almost like a sequence of piece it just push about and everything moves up a fifth or you know or a minor third or he's stuff like that um each each in a way in each each piece has this like and like killed as for example as like another miniature which then has like this incredibly beautiful guitar solo and which is actually like the the first very first guitar solo of mics that I have ever learned to play on touch guitar funny enough um and I've always seen that as a precursor to to voyager it sound like it has that sound yes but for me it's it really um there's something funny about it like when it starts with the the intro you just hear one one note and it's a synth or bass guitar like you don't really know of it's a combination of the two and it sounds slightly up to my ear and then the the the string synth comes in for the second round of the intro let's say and it suddenly defines like the key center so for me it's always like my ear shifts the key like the experience of the of the root note like when the string synth comes in and then you have the um the again like this the whole album doesn't have a single um english word on it it's all just syllables um um song through uh you know either the vocoder or in the case of Megalale singing here with with a clear voice um also almost always with a harmony part um in that case it's actually reminiscent also of the chanting on Abadon absolutely especially with the African drums which is that mic fry actually playing on this album yes it's mic fry and also yeah okay so so like you really you kind of like get the sound of the of the um cow skin kind of like drums which in the the way that there's produced though and this is this is so awesome because yeah you're absolutely right now now I see the connection also with Amorok so where you have like the um the Bolron like the Irish drum right or whatever I say Irish like I don't know what what is origin is so the frame don't drum with the African drum and the combination of and the way that the African drums are produced like with a lot of high end uh top end it sounds almost like a Bolron sometimes it's uh it's fascinating yeah that is always interesting to me that connection yes um I've actually seen the opening leave melody the main melody of the opening section as a as a as a reference to Amorok maybe not like super obvious but I've always sort of thought I've always wanted the opening section is a few uses Amorok opening of course one of course one yeah the vocal mandolin no the instrumental man the instrumental man the mad minor yeah yeah somehow somehow I know yeah it's true it's true because yeah yeah because that's the kind of like a minor minor key inversion of yeah there's a host of these these kinds of things of course yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah also the fact that it's Dorian like I'm saying that could be maybe that is actually really an inversion of something else I've never thought about that way but you're you you just gave me an idea there I think we'll be interesting also maybe to talk about the musicians um you know a lot about them and they're they're super interesting because this is at the time I mean maybe we don't think of it that way maybe because it's all so from a different time but these are like top-notch musicians yes and you know like when you were saying uh earlier that like when the production started and like everything is sort of like instrument-based also like which instruments were useful the instrumentation I think and I already said that for platinum now we have to go further and think of the musicians as instruments and this is exactly kind of what's happening here on this record because like if you have like Morris Perth who is like like one of the I don't know like the holy grail kind of musicians right as a percussionist and composers yeah right of contemporary classical music having Morris Perth in the studio gives you more than just a sound it gives you it gives you a musical opinion it gives you an attitude right and that that has been just just kind of like utilized I think also I think Morris Perth is you say opinion but I think it's also this these are two people who prefer to play rather than to talk Perth was I don't think that there's any interviews with him he was he was one of the top five drummers of his time but I think he could really communicate it through the music I mean just like I mean I think that he he was one of these guys who was actually percussionist and I think that's how he was educated yeah but him playing drums at that time like the feel of it just it's just it's just so heavy also like it's a kind of heavy that yeah that you don't really you've hardly ever hear from a drummer it's a it's I don't know I don't know how to put it like because you know like that classical musicians they they sort of like maybe like the understanding like I'm generalizing it but you know what I mean of rock music but then you have a musician like like yeah you know that here was Mike Fry and Morris Perth and then a year later it was Piano Land and Morris Perth unbelievable this this combination also of course and then add kilocolons to the equation actually I think his drumming is it's incredible in that first piece yeah it's easy to actually think it's not that special and why would he actually even have to be on that but I think he's actually fantastic it's fantastic and on top of just him being the player it also comes with the sound it comes with the sound yes yes and that that has been that is like the big factor here and just like especially the the sheba when the drums come in and sheba like the the how it lifts up the whole total music right it's incredible I wanted to by the way there's one passage I wanted to call it from the book because to me it's been really interesting to hear about that collaboration if it was one I actually full Collins played I read it for Collins autobiography ready actually with Genesis they would play tune the bells before their concerts yeah with one of the music they had on tape yes and they really liked it he doesn't talk about working on QI so we're all in that book but he does mention that and so full Collins at the time he was he was huge I mean Genesis had just had the number one album first I think number one with Duke so they were really big and and what this is what Mike all the advice in his book about that session and a few guests on there like for the Collins who came and did some drums and that's it that's all we're going to get about that I mean probably he doesn't even talk about some of the other people at all so it's more than that but I think it's it's probably I think it's an intense time with live and studio work bleeding into each other maybe that's also why the album to me feels really fresh it feels really fresh hey when was in the art? it was a little bit later it was it was 1981 or 82 but it was later than this one so when he came to the studio Collins had just said well you were in 81 but now like I can now if you think about it those sounds in in Shiba yeah those are the sounds of in the air tonight yeah well he's using the same drum computer yes there is a drum computer and also the the gated snare itself yeah even though it's not as gated as it is on face value yeah yeah it's not but still you you can already hear the tendency and like the the fidelities of the yeah of the parts and how they kind of as I say lift up the energy of a song totally yeah I think it's really that that machine is I think the funny thing about the CR 78 is that it actually has a swing a real one it's sort of it's the I mean it's shortly before the 808 and 9 and 9 came but it's hard to imagine what this would have sounded like had he gone with that there's actually by cork there's a drum computer which was in which was on a few productions a little bit earlier which is the kr 55 it's for example on Joe Jackson's what's it called this big Joe Jackson thing I mean look this would be fit well it's one of it stepping out yeah so that has the kr 55 and it sounds a lot more futuristic actually then than the CR 70 but it doesn't have a swing and I don't know anything about that with that swing swing function or whatever but I remember like very like the first I saw it on stage with my yeah we're sitting next to him next to the keyboard where he had the vocoder right yeah yeah he doesn't actually do that much with it it's it's you would just I think that's interesting because for Collins for example to get the in the air tonight beat you have to do more with the machine even though it's a really stoic and or not like that's what Collins wanted he wanted the machine to do more of the rhythm so that he could do less or other things we could less with piano that's why in the air tonight has this serene and and otherworldly feeling because the rhythm machine does takes over some of the stuff that he would have had to do with other instruments and so we can leave more of it open but to get there you have to actually program it so the Roland which which Mike also uses was the first drum machine rather than the first rhythm computer yeah but it doesn't actually do that much with it but I think he really wants to you wants it to be super minimal as he's said before yes yes the rhythm the rhythm the rhythm the rhythm interesting stuff happens still with the acoustic instruments yeah yeah for sure but it's it's that it's that combination that makes that makes that great and like five months out is really that album where like I said where it's I think that that point is the Lindron though where that that concept was taking kind of a step further yeah but anyway like I think that sort of like this this organic quality of the late 70s technology is is very much present here still with that with this album Q2 you know well at the same time you already have like I said like the fidelity of of the mid a little early or let me know like maybe 83 84 85 and I keep saying that I think that like really the sound of the of this musical eras is very much defined by by the equipment available right and so yeah this computer rhythm CR 78 is not like as you say like in the live performance they used as a metronome and normally yeah yeah this and then leave it playing on its own yes yes or I actually have a bootleg of the show in 1982 that was therefore and there is actually like a whole like four bar phrase of just the drum machine before they start the solo the drum solo and I I assembled it at some point and turn it into a track which was never released but yeah there's a great emulation of that machine it still works today which is amazing to me it's interesting that he's chosen using Roland a lot and that says I think a lot about his choices because they were probably more like Roland as a company was was founded to make the sort of it was intended to cater to amateur musicians not to professionals that's not how it panned out but but Roland was supposed to be cheaper and simpler but easy to use and affordable so that was the selling point and then then the company ended up influencing the course of history because professional musicians want to have it in their music well also also the this whatever I don't remember the exact name the s-h synth yes my cue is a lot of this presets and he modified the sounds by running it through definitely fixed processors and recording at half speed and blah blah all these things like he has a history with with Roland but here's something else I just recently came across and don't remember where I read about Mike owning like a MXR flanger or a phaser pedal or device I can't remember exactly what it was but I have not really ever and this is maybe my ignorance actually heard a flanger or or phaser sound on my ex albums this is something that maybe for some other time we kind of like go through try to to to spot like he uses of electronic devices like in in the live situation he's used the harmonizer the eventide yes a lot but I don't I don't think I've heard it on on an album no and I find that I find that fascinating like because like in 84 he started using the this Gibson synth guitar on discovery I think yet you see like like because we were talking about Roland that's why I came up with this so so there is a certain kind of technology that kind of seem to fit into into my exhibition of what he could use and then there was something else that really maybe was just something sort of like a dream in a sense that he would buy get some stuff and then realize I doesn't really work for my for my music also like because like there's another production technique that he hardly ever uses which is double tracking double tracking of of a part to kind of like read you know like I don't I don't think he's done that much at all because certainly it didn't doesn't work or didn't hell his music somehow and and that's why you know that maybe like the answer why the the computer rhythm was the go to a machine because it kind of blended in with with the composition he must have seen something it came from from Phil Collins apparently that's how he got to know about it and it's not as prominent as one would you know if it's mentioned old field with one of the people who are used it it was used in all productions in those early 80s it was even used on on a blonde D piece oh MD famously and all a gay I think that that also uses it there's lots of there were lots of pieces but but they that do you use it use it differently from him also for example this idea of running like the vocoder for example he I think he he did only the barge vocoder which was famously also used by Khaftereck I didn't know that but but actually the one I think he so that one is another one which he had in live use on the other hand he also on the the VC I think it's called VC 330 which was map farm cheaper by Roland and which has the same effects and which you can also use for example vocode dies whatever you want to call vocode for example keyboard instruments I think mount tidy was that done by by knocking it up to drum machine sorry to to call Thomas drums oh drum machine certainly or like actually actually I think probably the family but it's running through the vocoder yes yeah yeah and so that's something he could do with that machine yes yes yeah and and the the Roland is the machine that was used live yeah but the barge is apparently on the mantra I think it's it's also on stage okay interesting like I didn't I didn't know that at all there was there's only 40 of those were ever built so it's an interesting choice for him to go on interesting I really had no idea I wonder as like you do what the role of of the equipment was I mean he probably just he bought a lot and then tried out and sold it off again did let me just you have an album you know this I'll do we have the original credits in here because I yes we do we do okay good so so like torres one for example like my coffee plays mandolin bass and like here we can go by like also how they appear in the song right mandolin bass guitar synthesizers banjo right Celtic harp drum machine timpani electric guitars bass pedals clap trap and vocoder and clap trap is the is the CR78 I think no sorry the clap terms are different that's actually that's just a clap machine it just it just I yeah I heard about that too but like when I when I was googling it and it where I clap trap Roland it brings up the CR's it's a similar clap trap but is that the I mean like in the live show they have more spread hit a microphone and you hear the the electronic drum sound it's a very small piece of equipment so it could maybe be connected to the microphone yeah exactly and then to trigger an electronic drum sound yes and I think that's actually in the the intro of sheba where it is loud and there's also the clap trap also is on torres one of course at the at the it's it's it's almost textual it's not using the rhythmical way I wonder it does it does give it a sort of if you if you listen to it on headphones it gives you a really this really full electro acoustic experience it's not necessary for the music maybe but it's it adds something yeah fresh and yeah so I mean it's interesting for me to read the this Fred this year again so it says on torres one after Mike we have Mike Fry for Condromes Phil Collins drums making writing vocals and David Henshel synthesizers right and then sheba this also is I never really realized it's all Mike and Maggie yeah plus Phil Collins nothing nobody else um and then conflict as I was saying Tim Cross on the piano synthesizers um and Mike only playing electric and bass guitar and Mike Fry and Morris Perter in the drums it was wow apparently sections of the album like large parts with recording is a living room so I think there was this sort of space because this studio was being rebuilt but it wasn't finished yet and um that's one story I don't as I said I this conflicting information and there's um not a lot of it around anyway but but one story I heard is that that it was recording is living room which would explain why the interest in in having as little um people playing at the same time maybe and also the interest in electronic instrumentation yeah it's it's um strangely um detailed these these credits here right so um for example um on sheba it says um it's Mike also it's syndromes um interesting right so it was not and and I just found this here um on wonderful land David Henshel CS80 which is that yeah a famous synthesizer steel that so CS80 steel drums and synthesized French horn that's interesting yeah and you know both arrival and wonderful land the two cover versions actually have f strings like real strings on it and on a rave look wire yeah and on the title track there's trumpets yeah that's the the yeah exactly the brass section yeah which is not only on the title track also on mirage um mirage in a way it's like one of the most futuristic arrangements that you could think of like also like this this typical all-field thing where there's no bass for a while like and there's and here like the bass is only one note on the one sure not on one boom boom it is so cool yeah with that horn section and uh I'm wondering if it's the same horn section that was on on platinum I don't think so no I didn't check that really not no horns arranged by David Henshel yes yes he's a T-reignable to give yeah yeah it's it's it's great like in q2 we have um for mic we have synthesizers a double speed guitar electric guitars bass guitar bass pedals bass drum timpani interesting he plays the timpani there because it's very prominent um tambourine mandolin gong and the backpipes like though the funny thing is that and I never realized until recently that that lead instrument a q2 is in the backpipe because sounds so fake yes also it sounds a bit detuned even though the instrument by nature probably has a slightly detuned but I love the sound I have to say in the but it's really like something you wouldn't really know what it is it's like so produced and yes sort of like amplified in such an interesting I love it it's almost like a yeah beyond a synthesized sound sort of I know what you mean yes yeah it's kind of almost like it was virtually created in the machine yes which by the way the the vc 330 that the work order actually has an inbuilt choir like vocal sample which are not sampled from human singers but actually created through synthesis inside the machine and he also uses that there's actually something that vangelis used a lot okay maybe like a like a ensemble effect or something like a chorus effect or something yeah yeah that makes sense yeah yeah and you know talking about the detail on the record there's you can still hear that there are hardly any sequence parts with maybe the exception of the qe2 starting theme which again is like one of these modulating sequences right like what he did in invitations and because you can hear the variation the parts so for example the the bass synth in the beginning of qe2 it's really goes through like beautiful little phrases and variations and and always a little bit different and like it's certainly not quantized or like it's fantastic and you mentioned that that the credits are very specific contrast that with i think in temptations where there are no credits almost at all like the early albums black a lot of credits it's also from in this period that for the first time actually other people are credited with co-writing the pieces of course on five miles out it's more that's where it comes in and then we have it on crises but that's something which is also new so this the band there's a lot the the the it's not just these hiring session musicians to play his music but he's actually co-writing songwriting with them and I think on the title track is also co-write right with with cross is it i think so i think that one of the like it was originally a two part piece that was on the original vinyl release the early pressings it's actually qe2 part one qe2 part two and one of them i think is co-write it was written by cross really yeah i have i had no idea once or ever about this i i he doesn't say anything like this here now probably not on this it's just just my whole field all times written by my whole the accessory rival of obviously and one full land so for example on cald of course the the words are by tin cross yeah um which are not words yeah i don't get that either it's it's it's where he was speaking into the vocoder those are the works and then make you rade since probably saying the same word so the qe2 thing i'll we have to look it up again i don't think i don't think that officially the writing was i as far as i know and there was qe2 one at part one and that was that for sure yeah it was it was split up into two parts i didn't know that at all well doesn't really make a difference and it's i think it's a bit artificial i know i know that david henchell said that he should have gotten a writing credit yeah that's what he said in an interview there was a different time and i think he should have gotten a writing credit you know that's something that chava on also told me about many of his productions and i think the fear at the time was of many producers was that people would be hesitant to work with them for fear of the producer taking too much credit and money so they didn't do it i mean it's it's it's kind of like you know people could get kind of like dismissive easily of the artists to to care about such things but it really makes a big difference and sometimes i see that if the artist is the vehicle let's say for the creation that sometimes it's very difficult to to make that to split things up that's why like in my in my bands like we have like the rule okay we split it three ways like with stigma for example no matter how much one guy brought into it right because it's either you have a rule or it's going to be very very difficult yeah right so it's on five miles out there's a lot of like credit splitting and there was also a lot of I think that that was discussed also who contributed to what obviously on crises on in the on the b side here not so much on q2 yeah i mean in a way it's sort of like shines a different kind of like picture on the process and like and like what i was saying like we only we shouldn't only look at the instruments used but we should look at the musicians used as sort of like an sort of an inventory of sounds and ideas and potential developments of ideas while at the same time not taking away from the fact that the last word obviously always my cat yeah and sort of like i know we've used this word before like the idea of curation that it's some sort of artistic curation that that a composer also makes right if you have somebody improvise in the studio let's say it's a good question like is it is it is that composition of the improvisation who do you credit that to i think this this time we're talking about is the exactly the time when these questions were really negotiated take take an album like with an asylum where the Miles Davis which was sort of the the earliest widely known example of this editing technique of creating the piece in the studio having musicians improvising then creating the actual recording in the studio so is that a Miles Davis piece or is it to you macerro co-write i mean macerro creates the entire thing in the studio probably even though that of course has been disputed by Miles Davis in a way but it seems pretty obvious that albums like bitches brew and this one were essentially studio creations so where is the actual what what constitutes composition what constitutes production i don't know if if hanggill at the time thought he should have gotten the credit maybe it was just he was getting paid for his production work and that was it and maybe that was fine and then later on this it took a dip like today you would have a lot more writing credits than yeah like all days everything split up like in 15 people or whatever for us on which is kind of ridiculous in a way but i agree it's interesting like even just even just to know what the what the contributions are it's interesting you always love that i actually i like the idea of of a of a general split among the musicians but i also like something like a band like yes where you actually have specified who wrote which part of a longer piece i think that's yes that's fascinating yes yes yes yes and again having said that there's also like the curation the composer as a curator which um it's kind of like something that i that i see as um yeah it's again like there are so like like people who have some sort of experience with creative processes they know that it's not that easy and just just the fact that um this this idea that there is sort of like a creative um that they are that's just called the mistakes that mistakes can happen which then are inspirational right and you get more of that if you have real people in a studio yes right or if you have a keyboard player like like having um Tim Cross there um i hope i didn't say David Cross earlier actually uh i realized now Tim Cross there in the studio um as a great great keyboard player who could kind of like in mimic brass even like you know and like that was like the old school school keyboard players who could kind of like recreate orchestral sounds out of those boxes um and i think that that's really an asset which not really so much here on q2 maybe in conflict um it's a big factor but later on and five months out there's a lot of stuff that was only possible with those players yes yeah very much so and then that and that's why like q2 is sort of like um really if you think of incantations as like the end of the first phase and then you have platinum and q2 platinum and q2 are sort of parallel so parallel pathways yeah so we're not really connecting at the end of platinum but we're still connecting and incantations and again here's here's something else also um there's a track called uh it's called Walt Burg the peak um actually i learned from um one of the bavarian um can't remember his name or rina was his name he told me that it's actually valberg which they visited it which is a bavarian mountain valberg but it was called Walt Burg like valet like forest mountain um and it was the b side to um a single the michael field group which had uh five months um not five months out family man and mistake right on one side and it has this this uh warburg the peak so on the other side and if you play close attention is produced by David Hedschel so it must be a track from the actually from the q2 sessions and again that's fascinating because it has that personal it has the same musicians um a button was released and this i'm not i heard for sure we'd have to check it but it wasn't not not released on the q2 re-released was really i think it was released probably even on the um because miss and this is kind of like what kind of like uh wacky because um i think on the us version of prices there was mistake was included i think so yes and so since mistake was kind of paired up with the b side of valberg i think they even re-released that piece which is originally from the q2 times released that with uh uh crisis re-release which is crazy but anyway like it's and of course you mentioned that it has to be because David Hedschel is on there because of course Hedschel even though we think his work was great and on this one um there was no follow up but the follow up they'll return exactly i mean it's a bit premature because um megi rye will be come more prominent on the next two albums but she seems to be an interesting conclusion to me because you mentioned we talked about the uh proficient like the incredible um or virtuosity and um musical intelligence and um creativity of the musicians here they were all experienced musicians great studio musicians um great live performers rye seems seems um different she's just she did not have that much clout at the time and um i'm usually curious what you think why you think he he chose to get her into the band i mean the well-known life of like Wendy Roberts if you look at the the net worth cake which i think is one of the best um recorded ones we have um i think Roberts also has more stage presence maybe me but but i just think she she comes across as more confident and and she also has more singing parts on that on that on that gig um i think she originally was like the the second singer right with with white Roberts on that yes that's where i would say 1980 to her actually it was um right that was still the big band that was ten people or something right and she was in that that she was on the net worth concert as well and um and i mean like i i really don't know as far as i can tell now having spoken to some people who've worked with mark um the the the the the show you know you you choose people you like kind of right you there's something about them and you you maybe you discover them in a professional context where as you say they are already accomplished like Mike Frye more as per right but also in other cases maybe you like the voice of an unknown singer and you know like it kind of like fits like a glove in a way and you kind of like go go that way or in the case of Phil Bier was a technician came into my studio and then you know stuff like that so i i think it's um that's why we would have to ask Maggie maybe at some point or that all came about and that she came the voice right like and really and she has an amazing voice yes i guess something like really there's there's no other voice like that really uh that compares to like to my to my ear really and um yeah it's i i think she has kind of like worked her way up from being the second singer the backup singer and then the lead vocalist i'm just i'm just finding it to interesting i mean on this album she's still um she isn't that distinct as she would be on on for example crises or then later on discovery there's this these pieces and she has it's such a different voice there and um she actually came from from soul and yes and funk and um and she um she mentioned how everyone in Scotland was trying to sound like Frank Sinatra and and that's why she also like Ella Fitzgerald these these big crooning voices and there's and she was an amazing crooner and she was great and then on the later recordings where she's working with my corn on these which weren't actually written to be pop singers but turned out to be huge hits um it's almost like she's whispering and um it's it's so against what she where she came from them just curious why what he would see in her sometimes i think when you see the live performances she comes across a shy in these and and she's actually said that i should um there was a lot of traveling she was probably one of the only women on on tour and um even though for example a gig like them on true one um it looks great on on video it seems to have been a really small stage and the situation with they were standing on glass which was really disorienting but she was the thing is she's compared to these more experienced musicians she has a shine as to it and i think i don't know i'm a cute i'm surprised Mike would would be interested in that maybe but you mentioned curation maybe it's precisely that in this group which is super tight super professional there's this this one element element which is um surprise which you know no is it going to is she going to be pitch perfect or is it is it not going to be but when she is pitch perfect i think she's amazing there are there's a gig there's a gig from the up from that period where she is absolutely stunning i mean yes and there's there's this famous um um cologne show which was around as it put like for a long time and which has been released with uh five months out deluxe edition where her voice is completely shot um completely shot like really bad health you know um and she does it anyway she sings that show anyway and it's kind of like you could say it's painful to listen to in one way like like to experience her pain doing that but then also to see like that um in a way what you say a part of the the potential expressive range in her voice funnily enough comes out in that performance yeah um where you say like that where it's less of the of the soft voice which again as a studio guy Mike kind of like made that blue that voice up with a magnifying glass to kind of like bring that that special and you you can really get more detail if it's a soft voice soft singing um anyway and uh yeah i i i will never forget that um because that was also the time when i first saw Mike with that tour in in 1982 when when when he really had the spotlight already right like with uh family man and uh yeah but it's so yeah she's I mean even also in terms of the presentation um and she was doing unconventional things on stage it's uh you know you're so scatting it's all scatting yeah like the platinum yeah just um scatting the platinum melody yeah which is which is not easy it was going to i think the live show is there was something really yeah i think you had a big concept musically um it's there's there's so much in there anyway i just um i think we'll talk about that more in yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so um so let's come back to qe2 i mean what what's your um what should take on it and then do you have anything else written that we talked about a lot of it um um i think the discussion has been more piece like it's been more um it's been less um organized this time i think but i think that's because the album also has sort of a scenic character you know um one thing which which i thought about is just from the psychological point of view is um whatever the reason they've been that he came to record an album of shorter pieces i think it can have to do with with with the psychological changes he's going through at this moment as well um you know one one motivation why one reason i think by people some people prefer the longer pieces to the shorter pieces is that in a long piece you can have all emotions and you can go to really radical extremes and then reconcile the extremes i think there's a sense of not just of a journey but also of reconciliation which i think for him was probably something that was important um if like if you if you go to one extreme then make sure to also going to the other to balance it out um so in in his music he's balancing out the extremes which are so hurtful to him in his in his actual life um he's creating an ideal world where you can we have something to um push back against the the the the the the hurt that is coming in and i think after his therapies and now in a place where you can actually leave the these extremes for what they are without having to feel the need to actually balance it out so there's i think that the um there's no there's less darkness on here and there's more a sort of um he's confident enough and uh musically adapt enough to to just go with something which is beautiful and happy and not have to have the balance it out with something dark um yeah you don't like the the hurt because the hurt is stretched where this where you got this massive organ distorted organ section to balance out the um the surrounding serenity you don't need that it's just it's okay to to just be happy um yeah that's that's probably the thing i take from this album is um it's a psychological step it's it's the the collaboration with other musicians is moving into a new phase where um i mean like something we haven't mentioned he had this funny um like we were talking about the two cover song right but the fact that within conflict you have the the the Bach quote yeah um which is so i mean again i would say that's maybe Tim Cross but i don't know but it's just fit fits so perfectly well right yeah so that so it's sort of like this this this this process of all like of opening up as you say like psychologically and also like giving like the option of i don't know how you put it but like the the focus on the the positive let's say or there's no need for the counterweight or something at the same time you have the musicians bringing in more ideas or elements um skills right so so uh in a way this was the beginning of where he could have kind of gone anywhere right with his like say with the hope i don't remember like like say hopefully the financial possibilities um as well as the um the the reputation i don't know how it was really but between musicians like like most musicians i know some have some sort of like um um experience with all fields music that is profound so um so he could have gone anywhere and that's why it like these next few years are so incredibly interesting i i think and i think so it's such a dense period there's so much happening in a very short amount of time and even if you just like if you just look at the studio report is there a lot happening but then there's constant live touring um and um and the pieces are constantly reimagined so i head off the net worth kick he talks about how he's um thinking about um constantly thinking about variations on the tubular bells and that's variation is is the beginning of of qv2 yeah a lot of q2 of the torus morgue torus one yes and which means that for example something like tubular bells two that was not that didn't come out of the blue that was some uh he was constantly reimagining the music and uh yeah and he was he was doing that from the very beginning like well let's say very beginning meaning like we've already pointed out these relationships but actually platinum being like the first step of like i don't know consciously where we're recreating the beginning which obviously it was not but but sort of like taking inspiration and um the like we'll get there but 10 year 10 year release crisis then making the first really obvious reference to celebrate tubular bells torus 2 has this sort of I know if it's a recorded section doesn't it also play the tubular bells theme in the middle of torus 2 oh yeah sure but i mean like the like like the the obvious but but anyway um and yes and it's sort of it's sort of i don't think like some people say that there's like a rehashing of ideas i don't think there was ever the case i don't think so i think it's more more of more of um should i say this like he's kind of like found something that was so profound so early in this life that it wouldn't have made sense not to actually and and in a way it's it's a very it's a very mature and why is um understanding of life to see that everything is just a a measure there's something else right and and to kind of like go about that and at the same time as we were saying still to always create something new to find a new form for maybe what is the same content the and eventually in the end the content is the artist right so like you you are you are your and again here comes the word curation like in the end it's your taste yeah it's your taste which defines where you're going and like if you're writing down like musical notes on a piece of paper or on on on cigarette paper like mic did or if you're asking your musician to maybe play something a little different or to add a little uh you know some ornamentation to a part you know that that's all it all comes down like to the curation in the end and um and this is this is sort of like you do is sort of um just like platinum like i said is parallel it's sort of like an opening to all these possibilities and also i think the um the preference for doing it rather the labor over it, laboring over it endlessly um of course i mean this period you could have maybe instead of doing three albums you could have maybe done one um and then you would have maybe less rehashing which it is not anyway but less rehashing but i think the his mentality at the time was to just do it yeah and there's so much on maybe you know um you could always go back and make these per more perfect and as i said i think maybe the sequencing isn't isn't the best on the b side and this but the thing is it's there we have we have one more old field album and that's great of course and you know i remember that i said this before that there isn't interview from around this time that i read i think i don't or maybe it was a recording i can remember now where he was saying and it was this time when we're saying that he's trying still trying to make the most and he used the word spiritual spiritual music and in the in the context of this album it seems kind of like in a way funny because because it seems like his opening is so much to like more as he said like commercial or like a collaboration and let's worry we say like spirituality maybe is more personal thing but here is opening up and at the same time like he still has the mindset of making something that is really deeply moving people and uh yeah it seems to be that a lot of people at the time there was core fans didn't appreciate it so much a lot of people got knowing through it but many from the forum entries i've read many of people who actually returned to it prefer like it a lot more now so it seems to have needed a bit of distance which is probably totally natural for something which is a point of departure point of departure and like i say it's really in his whole catalog maybe the most most futuristic wacky kind of sounding record with maybe five months out topping it in the wackiness factor right but but really it's uh it's such a great cool sounding record and and i do recommend to everyone to listen to it yeah really do i also yeah i was going to say it's it's really not conceptual also which i like about it the the q2 thing that i think that's just a name yeah well then that's another thing like is there any relevance to the name i don't think so i mean all i again we we will never know but um i think it's kind of telling that as far as i know it's unknown who did the artwork um the first pressings of this one had a cutout so it was actually the white spot there's a cutout yes this one does the cd early cd doesn't have it funnily enough and it also had this little gauge thing yeah the gauge thing was all there was there but but on the inside of the first pressing there was also are you calling out this sort of a schematic of yes of the q2 and i have a pressing on wildbushed has nothing i actually have a misprint of the cover whereas not black the black stuff is not black but gray well yeah i mean i used to have it like a stall from me but i really think this one it's i think the despontanate is what what what counts and anything else is um superimposed later like post recording um the only thing he says in the in the biography is um it was originally supposed to be called titanic and then i mean that sounded a bit um really negative and then they went for q2 really i never heard that that's that's that i can't even remember that that's okay that explains something because i was thinking that maybe the two sort of like was referencing was sort of like a i don't know of this stupid but sort of like going for like okay this is nice this is the second try where platinum maybe was like the first and then it's the second try to go somewhere else to kind of like get away from i i don't know i yeah i it's stupid it doesn't make any sense but just like uh or what does qe you know we know a little bit of it is isn't it but it could also mean i don't know quality experiment or quality experiment or quality experiment or quality experiment it's certainly i mean it's it's in this lineage of of album titles it's an unusual one yes it's so it's a cold almost um yeah technical yes um term yes yeah i like it me too i also like the cover i think um yeah actually the cover as well it could i mean i know it's supposed to be the hull of a ship but it looks very almost like um the monday and um yeah painting it's very much of its time to like if you think about it like the cover design um the early eighties uh where things became so graphical and minimal and yeah okay dude i think this must have been like the longest it's probably i also thought it was more disorganized but there is a lot of it and it's hard to pin down i i don't think it's disorganized i think we did very well and kind of like describing them to the fact how it's somewhat all over the place and i'm not conceptual but and then at the end you decide to kind of like cut the big track part and like then so i feel about the podcast now as well but we're not going to edit this um and like our main recorder died in the middle so this is going to have a different sound quality because um the backup of the phone is what we're going to use for this but so it's going to sound as different from our usual podcast as q is doing this and maybe we can employ some artificial intelligence to clean up the recording let's see okay um thanks everyone see you in the next year