Ex-Scientologists EXPOSE Tom Cruise, Blackmail & Spy Wing | The Headleys

all right we're finally here thanks for so much for coming guys yeah sorry i couldn't get here any earlier i'm just i've been all over the united states for the last six months what have you been doing um we built a space camp in um alabama a space camp like an astronaut camp i build astronaut camps all over the united states and also museums and visitor centers so we just finished red rocks wow uh pike's peak space camps we're doing this bruce springsteen museum in monmouth so mark does all the fun stuff that keeps me where did you learn to do this at the crazy place really you learn all about space at scientology uh don't be giving advertisements for them now hell no av i probably spent 10 million dollars of their money on doing audio visual systems all over the i was in charge of all their audio visual systems worldwide i gotcha so and uh they didn't teach him they didn't teach me i learned it there i just happened to be a young kind of electronics person there and i was like we we were using 16 they were using 16 millimeter projectors in all of their organizations in in the 2000s in the 2000s 16 millimeter that's a real throwback you know it's so strange whenever i i get to talk with some of you guys who were able to leave and now like you're out in the normal world doing your thing and you've adjusted and are doing well with it because i can't even imagine and we're gonna get through your whole story today obviously but i can't even imagine being literally like it's almost in between when tv was in gray and when it was in color oh 100 you just go from one side to the other people will ask us they'll say oh you remember on seinfeld be like i've never seen it maybe like well what about friends you're like nope i go i had a blackout from 1990 to 2005 where i never watched a single tv show in that entire 15 years because we weren't allowed to watch tv so it's sort of like so many missing like it's like a black hole of media uh cultural references media films people go what about simpsons no never seen it south park never seen it you know then once we got out we probably watched we probably consumed six hours of media every single night for you after we left it was right in the early days of netflix when they would they would literally send you dvds of movies in the mail those days yes we had nine we had a nine dvd account so we were all we had three movies on top just to catch up because you would see if you were driving around you'd see the billboard for them oh yeah hey guys if you're not following me on spotify please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review they're both a huge huge help thank you but you're like well we don't get to go to the movies that also helped with the adjustment because when you work like easily 16 to 24 hours a day for 15 years when you get out into the real world and you're you know nine to five job you're like what do we do with the rest of the day what do i do with myself after yeah after dinner they treat you they teach a great discipline over there oh yeah i'll give you that no there's no um no lack of work ethic you're coming out you see these people complain about oh yeah into fives you're like what are you a like people when i was working i was working at a post-production studio and uh i was managing a whole bunch of visual effects artists and they had to get one or two shots done a day and all these guys they're on amazon they're on facebook you know and i'm like if you would just work during the day you'd be a rock star there's people out there right now like man maybe i need scientology my favorite though was when he was at that post-production company he got his boss was like hey man so how do you handle stress yeah we're like oh yeah we're good i'm pretty good i can he's like we might have some executives from some of the channels coming in here to oversee stuff and kind of looking over your shoulder i'll be like no problem i'm good dude i had a crazy short 413 guy yelling at me while i was working so i'll be fine with this now both of you grew up in science science right is that fair to say yeah yeah she was born into it and i my mom got into it when i was six okay so let's start there if you don't mind claire you were born into it so you you're both your parents were in scientology what was the setup yes so i was born in england manchester england um my mom got pregnant with me when she was 17. she was raised roman catholic and so hippie 70s rebelled against her roman catholic upbringing and her older brother got her into scientology and so my mom and dad were both in scientology when i was born uh i tell people this because it's just a whatever i was named after the state of clear you can't make that up wait they actually named you after the state of clear they just changed the a well claire being french for clear that's how my mom explained it to me i was like great thanks anyhow um claire does sound better yeah i will say that yeah thank god thank god they didn't call me clear literally like anyway um so my mom and dad were both staff at manchester org when i was born by the time i was two my dad decided he wanted nothing more to do with scientology and so by the time i was three they divorced and that was my first experience with scientology's practice of disconnection at three years old um my dad was just poof gone do you do you remember that at all oh 100 it's one of my earliest life memories is remembering that departure and thinking it was my fault you thought it was your fault what did your mom say to you about like how was it explained to you because you don't i would imagine and correct me if i'm wrong here when you're three years old you still don't understand like the definition of the religion you're in at all completely no yeah i mean that's that's the shitty part about being born into something like this is there's no before you know if you in cult recovery books and all that it um there's always reference to the pre-cult personality the problem being when you're born into it you don't know anything else you have no other frame of reference um so yeah i was three and i definitely remember like i said thinking it was my fault but um the way my mom explained it to me i just shut down stopped talking so of course what does she do she takes me into the science world and i'm like i don't know what's wrong with me i don't know what's going on i'm just gonna go to the scientology organization so that they can give me a r factor reality factor and explain to me that my dad is an evil person and it's not my fault but he's gone now to a three-year-old an r factor yep and it sounds like you remember that pretty well too yeah i you know it is so hard to put myself i was really lucky like i did great childhood i wasn't born in scientology or anything like that no offense you're not none taken believe me both of my parents were together and all that and like you just kind of got to do the regular kid thing but the idea of having like you're almost made this vessel from the second you can have any memory of anything and they imprint your brain with this software and they say this is how the world is and you don't ever get a chance to see an environment like i might have seen or like thief might have seen and your earliest memories are like oh this must be normal but you're not going to get a chance to see an environment like i might have seen or like thief might have seen and your earliest memories are like oh this must be normal my dad's evil because he left and they're going to brainwash you're not thinking that way but they're going to program me to make sure i don't do that exactly yeah and if you and also too to me the semantics the language of scientology is a huge piece of the the way they control and leverage you so if you consider that as a three-year-old i was learning the language of scientology before i even understood the english language would you mind explaining that a little bit yeah of course so in scientology the language does a lot of the work of keeping you in so for example if you have a critical thought you're you're trained to believe that that's because you've done something bad the only reason somebody ever leaves scientology is because they're they've committed crimes transgressions um so and there's just layer layer upon layer upon layer of language that is unique to scientology understand so as as a starting at three i'm learning the language of scientology before i even understand the english language right so you now i get it you're saying like something like a transgression you understand what that means without understanding what that might mean in the context of the english language if you're using it for another totally they have exactly they call those overts overts overts and withholds so an overt is something that you did to somebody and a withhold is something that you did that nobody knows about you've you've withheld it i thought crime yeah yes and then there's a missed withhold too so like if i if i steal your coffee and then you come by and you go hey have you seen my coffee and i go that's a missed withhold i haven't seen it so you almost found out that i took your coffee but you didn't so that's but they have didn't find out but they have thousands they have thousands thousands and thousands of things like this that when you're a kid you go to a scientology school you're going to do going to the Scientology Center at night to do courses after school. So you're always learning about all these things. One of the things that's kind of wild is you would never think that you would have had a missed withhold. But if I explain to you what a missed withhold is, and L. Ron Hubbard says, when you have a missed withhold, you display these kind of physical characteristics or the way you talk and the way you do things, you do it a certain way if somebody's missed your withhold. So then because you now know this, when that happens, you do it. So it's a crazy thing that if you didn't know that that's what happens, you wouldn't do anything. But because you know, oh, I did this. So now this is going to happen. So now I have to commit more overts against this person. And it's like, it's a wild thing that they train. They train you how to be a Scientologist. And because you do that, it's easier to manage you and kind of manipulate you into thinking or doing certain things because you now are kind of playing the game. As long as if you don't play the game, they have no control over you. They give you the deck of cards. You build the house. That's kind of when you were, it's funny you use the word playing the game because while you're talking there, I was thinking like it's gamification of everything you do. Like it's almost like, okay, in order for me to get to the next video game level, I'm going to need to make sure I have three lives and therefore I need to have these five thoughts that equals seven lives. It's like, what are we doing? It's exactly like that. And it sort of progressed that level of gamemanship. If you're just a member and you're just doing training on Scientology courses, or you're learning how to do the counseling, what they call auditing. If you're just doing that as a paying member, that's level one. Then if you, become a staff member or an employee of an organization, that's like level two. And then the final boss is the Sea Org. And if you're in the Sea Org, that's what, those are the guys that signed the billionaire contracts. Depending on where you are in the Sea Org, that's sort of the beginning. So like if you were here in New York, they have a continental liaison office here in New York City, right near Times Square. I love the names. Oh yeah. Abbreviations. And, everything. Hubbard stole a lot, I would say 90% of the organizational structure from the military because he used to be in the military. So he borrowed a lot of those things. But if you were here in New York- Or stole. Yeah. Yeah. The uniforms, the language. This is a nice place. Yeah. We call, now the lead guy's name is Dave. So we call it Davey's Fake Navy. Hi Dave. Over the years, a lot of my friends who use nicotine products have reported having a harder time in the gym and not getting the results they were looking for. 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And if you're in the continental liaison office in New York, that's sort of the outskirts of the Sea Org bases. And then if you go to Florida or if you go to Los Angeles, that's where they start to have higher level management Sea Org organizations. And then as high as you can go is where we worked, and that's the International Sea Org. So if you're in New York, that's where we worked. And that's the International Sea Org. And that's the national base or the Int base or the gold base in Gilman hot Springs California so you're like a 33rd Street Mason it's it's that level when you get there you have to get interrogations and some sometimes these interrogations could take a year to make sure that you are in no way possible a security risk or a threat to Scientology and then that's how you get to work at the headquarters and if you work at the headquarters that's behind the curtain you see Oz and everything that goes on when you're at that property so um so there's a lot of people that get out like um Chris Shelton or different people that were in the C organization and then they speak about their experiences well they have those experiences but at one of these local or the Los Angeles uh management or a Clearwater and when you get to the International headquarters David miscavige who's the current final boss of Scientology right he all 411 of them he 413. he's 413. yeah I like that better than five one um he micromanaged every single possible thing that got done at that property down to in the dining hall the at the urinals he was pissed that there was piss on the tiles under the urinals and so he ordered the the cleaning guy hey can you get some black mats to put under there so when the piss hits the mat we don't have to see it it just blends into the map that's cleanliness but but that down to that level this is the head of this cult International cult and he's also the piss mat guy so he'd hate me in the middle of the night I don't know where it's going goddamn yeah it's funny I was just down visiting Dave and I were both down visiting my buddy Danny Jones who's grew up in Clearwater not in Scientology at all but he when when we were like walking around downtown Clearwater near where his studio was just going to the store and stuff every time we're walking it's almost like Sinister you can see like we have Freedom Tower here it's cool it's like oh there it is I'm in Lodi I can see Freedom Tower I'm in Bayonne I can see Freedom Tower I'm out in Nutley I can see Freedom Tower I'm in New York I see Freedom Tower in Clearwater it's like whoa whoa whoa whoa I'm in New York I see Freedom Tower I'm in New York I see Freedom Tower in Clearwater it's like whoa whoa there it is like you see right on the line there a little shot of the bay yeah the big old Scientology building that looks like a weird kind of up Castle from a B-list or D-list movie and then it's got like the little cross on the top left and every time you're walking you feel like you're in the it's hard to explain but you're like you feel like you're you're in the middle of Dystopia you really do oh completely and the camera is everywhere yeah we did a tour through like a fundraiser for the aftermath Foundation and went through each you know building and it was like 50 people but everywhere there's cameras you could see them they were trained on us they're following us everywhere it is Dystopian yeah the aftermath is that Leo remedies so there was a show Scientology a Leo of remedy Scientology in the aftermath yeah after that show became very popular people started reaching out like hey what I want to help you guys what can we do and so we created the aftermath Foundation and we help people who are trying to escape from the C organization or Scientology and um and that's been running now for it was started in December 2017 so it's been around a while now and it's grown to where we have now education grants online support group um you know help with emergency housing expenses when people are just getting out we have a crisis line we have billboards up in LA that say need help leaving Scientology all around the the buildings there so you guys are like the Underground Railroad we really we really are when we left in 2005 I would say almost immediately we started running into people or people started reaching out to us like hey I'm here I don't know what to do I don't know how to and it's like okay do this let's get you a job here and so we were doing it from I'd say 2006 on we were sort of helping people who either worked where we worked or worked at one of the other C organization bases mainly it was Sea Org members at first because like in my case I got into it when I was six I went to Scientology schools until I was 14 and then I joined the Sea Org uh like I think right before my 15th birthday right around my 15th birthday I signed a bill they have people they they at that time they were they had kids as young as 12 in the Sea Organization so you have 12 year olds working from eight o'clock in the morning till midnight every day seven days a week you get on sundays you get three hours off maybe in the morning to do your laundry and you know shower and shave and then that's it that you're you're you work full time there's no there's no like vacations in the sea organization for 12 year olds for anybody for anybody but yeah as low as that this is this is where i always ask this question when something like this that is overtly crazy is brought up yeah how is this legal because it shouldn't be well because they have this religious cloaking so because they are a religion that's part of their doctrine or that's part of the teachings that you do that you work as much as you can and there's the sea organization the sea organization is like the fraternal order in scientology so these are the people who have uh dedicated their lives to scientology so they they don't need possessions they don't need any they don't need a car or a house or all this other stuff and so you're every every part of you is dedicated to expanding scientology but but another piece uh to answer that the question on why is why are they getting away with this these are kids that were born into scientology so their parents are fully in support of it and even sometimes force them to do it or you know push them to do it um like that's the best thing they could possibly do to a parent in scientology and that's that is also a huge piece of how they get away with it yeah if you want to raise up the status levels in scientology you either need to become a highly trained counselor in scientology do a lot of the counseling yourself so that's where you go through these operating thetan levels or you donate a lot of money if you don't have those things there's one other thing you can donate and that's your kids oh my god so so there are people that will use the fact that both of their children or all of their children or their only child is in the c organization as a badge of honor in the in the social structure of scientology because that basically shows yeah you you're you're committed because you just gave your kid to there here's what i don't understand though if i if i'm a catholic and i make my kid be an altar boy and father tom starts messing around with my kid the prosecutors come after father tom as they should yeah but but who's going to tell on pastor tom so if you're in scientology this is another wild thing in scientology they have um they have different levels of of what they call ethics and justice in scientology so they have misdemeanors and then they have crime what is considered crimes and then they have what are considered high crimes and then some of those things but not all of them are also then categorized as suppressive acts if you go to the authorities in scientology it's written in their ethics and justice manual that that is a crime at least a crime and depending on how how much you expose scientology to the government or local officials or the police or whatever it could be be classified as a high crime or a suppressive act if you commit a suppressive act in scientology and become a declared suppressive person which as we are as we both are congratulations yes i know we wear that as a badge of honor i'm going to get a shirt that says that suppressive yes if you are a suppressive person you are not allowed to speak with any of your family that are in scientology or friends or business associates so if you're a child and you escape so when we left the sea organization before we could even talk to our family that was still in scientology or she could contact her brothers and sisters or her parents in scientology they already issued a suppressive person declare on us forbidding any of our families to ever speak to us again so and then they gave us uh freeloader bills so factor in for 15 years we were making 46 a week if we were paid at all and um so then we escape and start our lives over and the only way we'd ever be able to speak to our family ever again is if we did a to e steps that's what it's called and basically went back into scientology but those steps would have included having to pay our freeloader bills which cumulative between the two of us was 150 000 so any courses or any counseling that you got when you were in the sea arc so that's another thing if you're a staff member in scientology or if you're just a paying member then when you do courses you pay if you want to do the purification run down and sit in the sauna and sweat all day that's five thousand dollars and then if you want to do this operating thetan level that could be up to to get up to ot3 could be a few hundred thousand dollars if you're in the sea org that you don't pay anything but then the catch-22 is you're working you know more than right i would say 16 hours a day is sort of like the minimum amount you'd work in the sea organization if you're working six years you're not doing scientology courses and auditing and stuff but they do have mandatory courses that sea org members have to do and so the mandatory on-the-job training that we had to do they built us for that when we left saying hey you got all that for free if you want to talk to your mom and dad again the first step is you got to say yeah i'm a criminal and here's 150k i owe you and then at that point they may or may not let you speak to your family again when you finish all those steps to get back into scientology yeah another another one of those steps is you have to redo all the training you ever did in scientology which you also have to pay for again basically siloed so that any and this is kind of this is maybe the most uh villainous thing about scientology but it's also the thing that they're they're getting screwed on right now is that when someone finds out oh they're doing this or they're doing that this is crazy i don't want to have any part of this and you leave scientology say okay you can never speak to any of your family that are in scientology because they don't want those guys to find out what's going on at the international headquarters but then you're going to have to pay for all those things and then you're going to have to pay for all those things and then you're going to have to pay for all those things and then you're going to have to pay for all those things but then because hubbard wrote all this in but then because hubbard wrote all this in but then because hubbard wrote all this in the 50s and the 60s and the 70s there was no internet so now that the internet exists when someone so now that the internet exists when someone so now that the internet exists when someone leaves leaves leaves they can come on a podcast right they they can come on a podcast right they they can come on a podcast right they could put up something on facebook they could put up something on facebook they could put up something on facebook they could do whatever they want could do whatever they want could do whatever they want and scientology has little or no control and scientology has little or no control over how that information over how that information over how that information is disseminated and who it gets to is disseminated and who it gets to is disseminated and who it gets to and so we have a small youtube channel and so we have a small youtube channel and so we have a small youtube channel and i would say and i would say and i would say likely 50 percent of the views that we get likely 50 percent of the views that we get likely 50 percent of the views that we get on our channel are from scientologists on our channel are from scientologists on our channel are from scientologists that are still in science because they that are still in science because they that are still in science because they that's the other thing there's you're not that's the other thing there's you're not that's the other thing there's you're not allowed to speak with another allowed to speak with another allowed to speak with another scientologist derogatorily about scientologist derogatorily about scientologist derogatorily about scientology but you can watch a scientology but you can watch a scientology but you can watch a youtube but you can watch a youtube youtube but you can watch a youtube youtube but you can watch a youtube video and not subscribe thank you very video and not subscribe thank you very video and not subscribe thank you very much um because much um because much um because because they think scientology is going because they think scientology is going because they think scientology is going to figure out well i don't want them to figure out well i don't want them to figure out well i don't want them getting caught so yeah yeah that's the getting caught so yeah yeah that's the getting caught so yeah yeah that's the first time in the history youtube i'll first time in the history youtube i'll say you know don't subscribe say you know don't subscribe say you know don't subscribe well so what happens is we've had people well so what happens is we've had people well so what happens is we've had people that have that have that have reached out to us reached out to us reached out to us that they would have like a burner ipad that they would have like a burner ipad that they would have like a burner ipad to watch videos on because if they use to watch videos on because if they use to watch videos on because if they use their regular youtube or whatever if their regular youtube or whatever if their regular youtube or whatever if they start watching those things their they start watching those things their they start watching those things their algorithm it's going to serve up these algorithm it's going to serve up these algorithm it's going to serve up these things so if they're in the living room things so if they're in the living room things so if they're in the living room and their their wife or their and their their wife or their husband or their daughter or the son husband or their daughter or the son husband or their daughter or the son goes on there it's like hey there's goes on there it's like hey there's goes on there it's like hey there's freaking suppressive people on your in freaking suppressive people on your in freaking suppressive people on your in your feed yeah well funnily enough in your feed yeah well funnily enough in your feed yeah well funnily enough in 2023 2023 2023 danny masterson trial was ongoing danny masterson trial was ongoing danny masterson trial was ongoing um and during that time scientology was um and during that time scientology was um and during that time scientology was was paying for ads on youtube was paying for ads on youtube was paying for ads on youtube so you know like trying to quash so you know like trying to quash so you know like trying to quash um um um exposes of their true nature but that exposes of their true nature but that exposes of their true nature but that also had the effect of also had the effect of also had the effect of actually promoting our videos to actually promoting our videos to actually promoting our videos to scientologists they basically were scientologists they basically were scientologists they basically were paying so much in google ads that they paying so much in google ads that they paying so much in google ads that they hijacked the algorithm and our stuff hijacked the algorithm and our stuff hijacked the algorithm and our stuff were going to people were going to people were going to people more because they're paying for it so more because they're paying for it so more because they're paying for it so even our even our even our our content had scientology ads in it our content had scientology ads in it our content had scientology ads in it yeah yeah yeah because of that because of they were because of that because of they were because of that because of they were just like we got to get everybody wants just like we got to get everybody wants just like we got to get everybody wants to know what's going on with to know what's going on with to know what's going on with scientology because there was a lot of scientology because there was a lot of scientology because there was a lot of people going to the web going people going to the web going people going to the web going danny masterson scientology yeah so danny masterson scientology yeah so back to your point though about the the back to your point though about the the back to your point though about the the catholic comparison catholic comparison catholic comparison the what mark was explaining on how the what mark was explaining on how the what mark was explaining on how their policies work was a huge piece of their policies work was a huge piece of their policies work was a huge piece of my testimony as an expert witness in the my testimony as an expert witness in the my testimony as an expert witness in the danny masterson trial was to explain danny masterson trial was to explain danny masterson trial was to explain how scientology controls its members and how scientology controls its members and how scientology controls its members and prevents them from contacting prevents them from contacting prevents them from contacting authorities authorities authorities reporting to police any any outside reporting to police any any outside involvement is strictly forbidden involvement is strictly forbidden involvement is strictly forbidden by the policies of the organization by the policies of the organization by the policies of the organization well do you mind if we dig into that well do you mind if we dig into that well do you mind if we dig into that for a second take a little tangent on for a second take a little tangent on for a second take a little tangent on that totally i was just going to say that totally i was just going to say that totally i was just going to say there's another level to that in that there's another level to that in that there's another level to that in that instance where instance where instance where if you have somebody in l.a if you have somebody in l.a if you have somebody in l.a and they something happens at the and they something happens at the at the Scientology Center or Danny Masterson does something untoward towards that person. When they go to the police, Scientology has somebody there. And that person goes, hey, we got one of your people over here. You might want to come over. My dad's always valued his structure, routine, and accountability. Consistently throughout my life, he works out and his diet's pretty good. But no matter what, father time always catches up with you. And as you get older, it gets harder and harder to stay in good shape. Specifically, when my dad hit his 50s, he noticed that his energy was dropping, his recovery was taking longer, and his workouts just didn't hit like they used to. This went on for some years. It's like he was doing everything right, but his body just wasn't working. But thanks to my friends over at Mars Men, my dad's energy and workouts have improved remarkably. As you get older, your body is still producing the testosterone it needs, but you're just not able to use as much of it. That's because there's this protein called SHBG that locks up your testosterone. 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After you purchase, they're going to ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them I sent you. And so then that's not an uncommon thing in Hollywood because you've got studios and you've got these big conglomerates that are trying to keep their act together. And so you're going to get 50% off. And so and talent under control. And I think there was something that even came up with the exact same division of the LAPD in regards to the guy that was running CBS, Les Moonves. So when nonsense would get up, they had somebody like, "Oh, hey, we gotta get a call in to sort this out." So they play the game in Hollywood big time in terms of how people are getting, yeah, there you go. - Captain Corey Palka. - So Corey Palka, LA, former LAPD captain, allegedly leaked confidential 2017 sexual assault investigation details to former CBS CEO, Les Moonves, to help cover up accusations. Palka, who worked Moonves' Grammy security detail, tipped off CBS about the complaint leading to a $30.5 million settlement and a fine for Moonves. - Yeah, so Captain Hollywood, Corey Palka, there's documents. We have a, on our YouTube channel, we got a treasure trove of Scientology's spy wings files. - Spy wings. - Yeah, spy wing, the Office of Special Affairs. And this is their, sort of like their dirty tricks. The Office of Special Affairs, this is crazy. The Office of Special Affairs used to be called the Guardian's Office. And L. Warren Hubbard was the Guardian. And the Guardian-- - Oh, he didn't come up with it? So it changed? From what he came up with? - Well, I'll tell you why. - Or he renamed it. So the Guardian's Office is responsible for the largest infiltration in the United States government in its history. They had Scientology agents in all levels of the United States government. And their purpose was to cull all the government files to remove anything bad about Scientology and replace it with pro-Scientology documentation. - How did he get these people in there? And how did he get these people who obviously have some intelligence to be able to do, no pun intended, to be able to do the things they're doing, to be like, you know, this guy who's written fucking 400 shit books, he's definitely, he's onto something. - Well, in that time period, there was basically, there was this, we could die any moment type of thing with all of the wars that are going on. This is 1950s when Hubbard came up with Dianetics and kind of it morphed into Scientology during the early 1950s. - The nuclear crisis. - And yeah, so it was always like, hey, the atomic bomb could be dropped any day. If we don't do something and we don't figure this out, we're done-ers, we're gone-ers. So he sort of kind of used that as a, this is a new way we could do things. And then Hubbard was a trained hypnotist. He was into black magic. He was into black magic and the occult. He made like a potpourri of fucking culty shit to be able- - Yeah, he poached from so many people on literally all the best ways to control and manipulate people and concocted it into the nightmare that is Scientology. - And he, and that's the other thing. He spent 40, well, when did he, 86. So he spent 36 years perfecting that and tweaking it. And okay, when people leave, we got to declare him a suppressive person because then they kind of poison the rest of that area. So we got to cut them off. We got to do this, we got to do that. But in those files from the Office of Special Affairs, there's details of all of the stuff that is going on in Hollywood. Tom Cruise not doing interviews with certain networks that are running anti-Scientology programs or exposés. So they had a thing with Anderson Cooper at CNN saying, hey, if you want David Miscavige to come on and you to be able to interview him or Tom Cruise, which both of them would be a huge get for Anderson Cooper. If you run this story that's being worked on that talks about Scientology, that's done. You're not getting that interview. And they did the same thing with- - And the story, by the way, it was Scientology: A History of Violence. That was the Anderson Cooper show. - Anderson Cooper did end up doing the show regardless of whatever. - Oh, good for him, yeah. - But either way, they do the same thing with CBS and NBC and Fox. And so they play this little game because you know Tom Cruise is going to have a movie coming out this year or next year or whatever. And you're going to get eyes on your channel if he's on the this show or the that show. And so it's like, if you want that, then you got to not do this over here. And they play the long game on that one. They'll string somebody along for 10 years. And then finally, I think what happened with Anderson Cooper, he's like, you know, screw these guys. They're never, this is never going to happen. They're just holding it over us so that we don't do this other nonsense. But there's talk, there's things in there about Larry King's best friend was also Tom Cruise's lawyer. And so it was a gentleman named Burt Fields. So Burt Fields is kind of playing the game with Larry like, hey, I talked to Tom and he might be willing to come on your show or dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. But you guys got to not do this thing that you were going to do on Scientology. So it's, I mean, even in our case, we had a lawsuit where we filed against Scientology for like not being paid. - Human labor law violations, human trafficking, forced abortion, yeah, multiple. - And in that case, the lawyer for David Miscavige's organization, which is called Religious Technology Center. That's the, they manage everything in Scientology. The lawyer, their chief lawyer, after the case was done and we lost on appeal and all these different things happened, Scientology's lawyer became a California Supreme Court judge, Mark Marmoreau. He became a California- - Let's pull this guy up. - Yeah. - He's the guy that did our depositions. In that case, yeah. And so you just, it's wild that they've got people in all these different places where they need them. And that was sort of the guardian's office. - Hey, Mark. - There you go, that's him. Yeah, and by the way, on the lawsuit, at the time there was an FBI investigation going on that Mark and I were both literally confidential informants, and we didn't even know what they were for. And so our lawyers decided to whittle down our causes of action and put basically focus on human trafficking charges. And in the end, during the appeal and everything else, they said, "Well, you can't prove human trafficking because we were, even though we were in Scientology as teenagers, we consented, allegedly." - Yeah. - And so we had the final ruling that had we pursued other causes of action, such as-- - Assault. - Assault and battery, false imprisonment, things like that, we may have fared differently. - And there was another case that was going on at the same time where they did do that, and Scientology ended up writing those guys a check. So it's sort of, they, and now they've got this situation where anyone who sues Scientology, they have this system that says, "Well, listen, we're a religion. So the courts can't get involved with anything that we're doing." But what we do have is we have our own, ethics and justice manuals and we'll do we can work out an arbitration and so the courts are quick to say oh great perfect so here's this case it's remanded to uh arbitration with scientology yeah with mark so no but it's not there's no i'm kidding no literally they're the they the judge this is an elaborate kangaroo court that scientology has now set up in recent years after we escaped and after our lawsuit to where if someone brings a lawsuit to the judge then the judge will say no no you need to go back to your abuser and go through their arbitration process like valerie haney is one of these people that's currently going through arbitration she literally had to escape in the trunk of a car from the headquarters where we worked and now she's been sent back to her abuser for arbitration it's the biggest joke how do they get away with it well what they do is all of the early enrollment forms in scientology you're signing a contract to be in scientology yeah but if you're 12 how can you consent if you're 15 how can you consent because it's your religion and we can't and as the court we can't say that you can't we they're basically the way scientology spins it is it's it's your right to not have to be messed with by the outside world if you're in scientology and we can't violate your rights so even if you're a victim hey that's it's not illegal to do something really fucking stupid so well there's no we got nothing we can do for you you signed up for it and you signed every time you do a course or every time you start some training somewhere or some counseling somewhere you're signing at something and you're not going to be able to do it because you're not and at the bottom of that it says if shit goes sideways you're gonna you agree to do arbitration you're not suing us this is also the other problem too when it comes to the rest of society and you know it's not like everyone sits and listens to a podcast where we talk about scientology and i learn about i didn't ever known that much about scientology if going clear hadn't come out you know and stuff like that so when you see a scientologist an active scientologist i don't know walk into a courtroom or something like that they look normal they're wearing normal clothes maybe from joseph a bank or somewhere else that looks like joseph a bank whatever and you know they look like regular joe from society whereas if it was this is an extreme example but you think like cult mindset and just like pure where it is let's say you're like an uncontacted tribe somewhere if they walk in you're like okay well you're from a different planet yeah we are obviously point being you get to as a scientologist you get to blend in when they need you to blend in but your entire life is what we talked about at the beginning where you're on the gray side of tv and everyone else is out in color but they they almost like wire you up to be able to be like all right we're going to turn you on right now go out there put on a show come right back in two hours and you do and people do it yeah and in scientology you sort of learn that you're better than everyone else better better you're you're everyone else around you are homo sapiens you're homo novus you're another level above everybody else and people not in scientology hubbard had a word for that it's wog which is right actually come to find out a racial slur yeah we actually by the way we have to bleep that because it gets videos demonetized on youtube oh i swear to god and and i think i want to say in england and australia that's like racial slur yeah that's like the end but hubbard defines it as standing for wealthy oriental gentlemen um and it just means somebody who that too i thought it was i thought it was worldly ory oriented there's two different versions oriental worldly oriented uh anyway but but they teach you that you scientology are the only people who have the answer in the in the universe not on this planet in the universe to be able to do things so that we can succeed as a society yeah and so hubbard also call calls somebody just getting into scientology raw meat and they need to uh you have to find their ruin um which is what scientology recruit techniques are based on is literally finding the person's ruin and then presenting like oh scientology has the answers to that yeah there i like to say like if you have a problem with relationships and you end up doing a stress test in times square or you read some kind of pamphlet on scientology and they say you know we can help you with relationships so you go in there and they go yeah yeah we've got a course on that it's a fifty dollar course you come in you do it in a day or two and you do that course well when you're done with that course you're thinking i think i might be i might be on the right track here with getting my relationship sorted out but as soon as you do that they go like hey you should do the purification rundown because you have drugs in your body and there's residues and they can kind of kick in whenever and you go yeah i'll do that oh that's two thousand dollars or five thousand dollars and then 30 years later you've given scientology five million dollars and you just went through your third divorce and you only showed up there to sort out the relationship but when you every course you do in scientology you find 10 more problems you didn't even know you had because they're they're basically they're laying out the path for you so that you're the one that's like oh i gotta do the next thing or i gotta do this or i still gotta sort out my relationships and until i get to the they'll say like well you know you're some of these things are going to be addressed on the operating thetan levels so now you've got this your eye on the prize okay now i gotta get through all this lower stuff so that i can get to the higher levels of scientology and that you they the the path in scientology is charted out it's called the bridge to total freedom and it has the counseling side of scientology and then it has the training on how to do the counseling in scientology you just gotta do slavery on the way yeah well you you're supposed to basically work your way up both sides of this bridge to total freedom in scientology and what they have right now is it says it goes up to operating yeah operating thetan level 15 but in fact l run hubbard never wrote 9 through 15 so scientology are still saying we're this is coming but it ain't but even the people that get to ot level 8 which is the final level they have right now they're getting to that level and they're going this is crazy okay i'm still shitty at relationships i'm i made it all the way to the top and i'm still a fucking a bag of shit in the in the in the girlfriend department and so they're they have this crisis people have this crisis of faith when they go they say you're going to solve this on this level and then they get to that level and they go and that was nothing that was crazy i just learned about space aliens and on ot3 and it's like and you're not allowed to talk to anybody about these things and i'm still shitty at relationships i'm still shitty at these upper levels which is a critical piece because you don't have it's not like you'd ever have a conversation like hey can you believe what you just read on ot3 like what's up with that um that never happens so scientologists are forbidden even from comparing notes with each other even if they're they're they've both done the ot levels yeah like i i did the ot levels never told mark in fact after we escaped and he was watching south park i remember it like it was yesterday he's like wait is this for real this is what's on ot3 and i was like yeah i found about the space aliens in scientology from south park yes and when i was watching and that was when you told him well no i asked her i said yeah is this really what it is she had done those and she goes yeah pretty much and i was just like and i was like my mind is blown you knew that there were lord xenu and all this other stuff and you were like yep checks out no i didn't say that but the other the other hilarious part about that was he was like okay i'm gonna do a test because in scientology they believe that if you are exposed to the upper levels before you're ready then you could die from pneumonia so mark's like you will die from pneumonia yeah so mark's like okay i'm gonna do a test i'm gonna read all the ot levels so if i'm dead tomorrow morning i'm gonna do a then hey maybe there's something to it yeah that is another kind of chink in their armor which is you can log on to the internet and you can pretty much read all of those confidential upper levels in scientology it's been they've been leaked yeah i didn't plan this in the 50s they didn't plan that nope so when i read that i read all of them i read from all the way to the bottom all the way to ota i read everything in one sitting yeah so i was like oh my god if i'm gonna die it's gonna be tomorrow it's it's gonna happen now because i've gotten done all this up in the morning i went not even a sniffle and that that that literally is how i like i think the between the south park and then that and then realizing that nothing happened i did all of the things that they said you cannot do this you will die and then i did it and then i was like oh my god it's all bullshit the whole fucking thing is bullshit so many of my friends often talk to me about how they leave their doctor's office and they feel like they accomplish absolutely nothing doc tells them they're fine maybe drink more water and they end up feeling the same the next year when they go to see no real data no game plan just a pat on the back and please get out of my office and this is exactly why i tell my friends they need superpower superpower sends a licensed professional to your home or you can visit a nearby lab it's one simple blood 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our listeners get 20 off to unlock their new health intelligence you just have to head on over to superpower.com link in my description below and use code julian for 20 off your membership once again that's superpower.com code julian after you sign up superpower is going to ask you where you heard about them please support our show and tell them i sent you what's that like to finally actually realize that though um well in my case i was 31 years old when that happened so a year it was a 2005 okay so i was sort of like there there's it's a double-edged sword because if i wasn't there then i wouldn't have met claire and i wouldn't have my three boys and so it's like i kind of got to where i am now on this path and i don't think i would have got here on this path if i didn't do it the way i did i i you know who knows woulda coulda shoulda but yeah but at the same point i go but i was exposed to enough crazy in there that i think i can undo this if i tell everybody all the stuff that i knew and so that's why i ended up writing the book blown for good behind the iron curtain of scientology it's a great name by the way yeah well that place is like behind the curtain so that when i when i got out and started learning about all these other things that were happening in the world and what had happened in the world the the only thing that i sort of was like the this is the most like this was the iron curtain so i was like the the defection the spy kind of network the the the tattletale culture like the if if i said i'm thinking of leaving 99 she would write a report on me and file it and say hey my husband's thinking of doing this that's that's like germany days 100 cents so like you can't but that's how you're wired yeah your children could rat you out your spouse could rat your parents could rat you out so you have all these people if you act the fool or do anything bad about scientology and anybody in scientology is around the penalty in scientology for not reporting that is you are charged with the same crime of the person that you didn't report so if somebody's leaking confidential materials on the internet and they get declared a suppressive person and then they find out that you knew he was doing that you also get declared a suppressor just for not reporting it even if you didn't do anything you just saw that he had something on his computer yeah yeah so i don't regret that i was there because i what there's not a choice yeah but also there's nothing i can do right so to even think about oh what if i did this or what it's sort of it's pointless and unproductive but if i say well there's not the the the the other thing that scientology don't really account for is if you saw something that was illegal or that something something was bad and you they make you sign ndas and they make you do all this but it's not it's not illegal to tell somebody about something illegal you can't an nda can't protect from that right so if i say well he killed this guy you say oh you signed an nda you said you wouldn't say anything it happened there'd be like yeah but that's a crime so not in our church yeah so but yeah not in our church um but so i think um i think for a lot of people that are in scientology they want to leave and they know that it's bullshit they know that there's bad a lot of people in there a lot of people in scientology know they themselves have been wronged they've seen one of their family's members be wronged or their friends or their business got screwed over by scientology and they want to leave quick question i'm sorry to cut you off you just got to ask this do you think the percentage of people now that wants to leave is way higher than it was in say the 90s because of the internet alone or because of the internet alone or because of the internet alone 100 absolutely 100 because because they're getting they're they're hearing when you're in scientology there's a pretty proliferant uh whisper web the people like oh do you hear what happened to billy bob and you know that and you go like i don't know well then you go on the internet and there's some fucking billy bob fucking telling this goddamn story so then you go like well i'm pretty much sure i know what happened to billy bob so um but they know that happened they saw that what he said they said that same thing happened to my sister's boyfriend yeah you know the same crazy stuff so but if their family are still in there you can't really go to your family and say hey this is not for me i gotta go yeah then you're never gonna talk to your family again so there's this kind of thing where i don't want to go and they have a term in scientology called under the radar so if you're one of these people that doesn't believe anymore and you're not giving them money you're not going to their events you're not doing anything you're just flying under the radar so and there are so many you don't say anything bad you talk to all your family and you and you yeah yeah yeah awesome good job on whatever you're doing in scientology but it's like play along to stay along is this more the people though who like aren't in the sea org they're the people that live out in regular society yes okay yeah yeah if you're in the sea or like one of those people you got to the people that was under the radar is somebody that i don't actually even know the person's name but they knew me when i was a teenager and they know my family and they're like they cannot they're so mad that my family disconnected from from us and have never met my sons and and all this but this person paid for like 200 copies of mark's book and had us send them to like every single um politician in california the the uh law enforcement like literally just sent it to everybody wow the other thing is that when you are in there and you want to leave if you like do anything suspicious or you so you really have to because they've taught you that about the missed withhold and that well you talking to people online about how bad scientology is that that's like forbidden in scientology so but if you start acting weird around your scientology family members then they're gonna be like get them on this withhold this guy's doing something crazy over there we had a family we had a i think it was the dad who wrote in to us on youtube or on our website or something and he said i want to thank you for your book because i bought it and read it my wife and my two kids are all in scientology and i wanted to sit down with them and just tell them listen i this book this guy used to work at the headquarters of scientology and i think they're doing bad stuff over there when he sat down with the family and told it his wife had already read the book on her kindle and the kids had already been looking all over the internet so when he went there to basically he's gonna lose his family maybe by making this confession and they're all like hey me too yeah we're all in the same boat the whole family was already under the radar but none of the other family members right knew that because they're not allowed to talk about it so that i would say i would say that there's right now it's not really more than 20 or 30 000 scientologists in the world that are practicing giving money to scientology i would say even of those people there's probably percent of them that have had thoughts about leaving. or want to leave but they can't because they work for a scientology company or yeah it's just your whole life is this web of scientology nonsense how many of them would you say live in clear water half of them or um i say probably like 20 30 percent live in clear water 20 30 percent live in los angeles and then everybody else is just all over spreckled so you you guys said you're big movie people when you came out you watched the departed oh 100 so you remember the scene where he's like you think he's a cop yeah like that was me and deef in clear water last week standing in the parking lot yeah like you think that's a scientologist he's like nah 10 bucks says nah well in clear water for a long time because they have they have hundreds of properties in downtown clear water yeah hundreds yeah that's why everything's so goddamn cheap yeah and also the streets are empty yeah nobody walking around yeah that's it it felt like a true detective episode yeah in some places it's kind of wild that there's all this and there's thousands of people in those buildings but you never see them they would bus people from building to building so that the c-org members they don't get caught like out on their own and they don't get encounter somebody because in the i want to say in the late 90s early 2000s there was a lot of activists and protesters that are holding signs saying like free xenu you know uh let your body thetans out or whatever and or your family misses you yeah it's like drawing a picture of muhammad yeah effectively yeah and so they don't want one of these random c-org members to see that and then go what are body things what's lord who's lord xenu so they would bus them from location to location so and i think for the most part they still do that between where they live and where they're from and they're still there and they're where they work but every once in a while you'll catch a we i mean we were there last year sometime we were there and we had gone to there's a huge park uh right on the bay um and there's a they built this outdoor pavilion coachman memorial park yeah and getting worried just the park we were at first i was like wait a minute but when we were at that park we saw a few c-org members walking in between their buildings they cut through the park to go did they look at you they did yeah but they didn't know they did a double they don't know um yeah no maybe if there was somebody that used to be at the headquarters that was now in clearwater they don't know who you are no no only we see that's i mean we've been out for what 21 years i know but like so high profile no because they're not allowed to look at any of that the c-org members there's no they're not they don't have really internet access or tv or we even had a when we were at the base the international headquarters when you get mail it's opened before you get it they open your mail so if your mom's writing you saying hey i think you need to get the hell out of there shit's gonna hit the fan they just shred that and then they make a note for outgoing mail too by the way you want to write to your mom even if your mom's a scientologist it has to be read and checked before you send it you give them the letter in an open envelope they read it and then they seal it and mail this is this is what was killing me when i was talking with jenna miscavige she was here i was telling you before she was here live 2024 we put out a couple months later for episode 235 but she she grew up in that and you know we got into a really good flow so impressed with her and like how somehow she's able to have somewhat of a normal life now which is like i can't even fathom that based on her whole family background everything but i'm sitting here and i'm like all right you're talking like a normal person you're out in the normal world now but you spent 21 years completely behind a wall like actually totally behind a wall pre-internet a lot of it did you know who the president was like when you were in there what kind of music did did did you think existed do you know what what a baseline sounded like i would start asking her these questions and she'd be like oh no that's really interesting like yeah i knew there was this guy at some point like bill clinton but i'm like what was he to you yeah and she's like he was just this thing in this other world yeah it's funny you say that so i think it was in the late 90s there was a um there was a situation where david miscavige went around to people at the base seorg members and said who's the president and they literally did not know he did not know the answer to it because there was such a media blackout and we weren't getting any form of anything there is no way to know who the president is yeah so at that time david miscavige's handling was to literally make every single staff member at that base learn who's the president of the u.s who's the governor of california who's the prime minister yeah literally that was an order that david miscavige gave was everybody at this property needs to be told who the president of the united states is another crazy thing what about like in sync you gotta know no no we did we did have music we did have music you could go to walmart on the weekend and buy a cd if you if you were if you were balling if you had some cash on you still left you're free britney spears cd and you're like okay all right yeah when bill clinton was actually very cozy with scientology and when they that's a strange word to use about okay well i'll just i'll say i'll say when in when they got their uh tax exemption was it in yeah it was in 1993 when scientology got uh received tax exemption from the irs they had a huge event at the la sports arena and the war is over we're good to go we're we're legit now the the accountants said we're a religion and that was the literally the line david miscavige used the war is over and they put up a huge graphic on all the screens in the sports arena and it was a congratulations this is this is many years in the making bill clinton to scientologists scientologists were like yeah well now this is this is another great i got to tell this one one last bill clinton story because it is i love it it is it is this is a good one encapsulates the essence of david miscavige so oprah was throwing a party for i think it was missy elliott and john travolta's there and oprah all the muckety mucks that oprah knows are all at this party for missy elliott and david miscavige gets to go he goes to this thing through john or through tom or whoever tom cruise and he goes to this thing through john or through tom or whoever tom cruise and he goes to this thing and um and he goes to the party and it was kind of all around the international court headquarters like oh there was a big party all the celebrities and all the scientology celebrities were there but also regular celebrities and david miscavige was there rubbing elbows with everybody and we think we heard that he met bill clinton anyway so then bill uh david miscavige is in the elevator in los angeles at one of their big buildings down there and a seer member goes sir is it true you met bill clinton david miscavige goes no he met me that's david miscavige baby that's oh my buddy my buddy matt cox who i was also visiting when i was down there in the tampa area you ever hear him no he's got a big show online reformed totally reformed but he was like the world's greatest mortgage fraudster for about a six-year period got sentenced to 26 did 13 a lot of ratting happened to make that happen but he just got out recently like seven years ago oh okay yeah he's he's big on youtube now like i said very reformed but you know matt's really short he's like five three and he always says he's like never trust us i'm like what do you mean trust us and he goes short people like me want to run the world oh and i was like listen i i got a lot of people who want to run the world and i was like listen i i got a lot of short king friends out there i ain't calling anybody out or anything but there is something to it when a guy is literally like that yeah historically right napoleon blah blah and he's got that many examples right and he was always like i'm he is the the cap it's captain david miscavige captain that's he is the head of the sea organization and so when we were at the But he didn't. He didn't wear a uniform. But then on the weekends, we would dress in civilian clothes. And on the weekends when everyone there dressed in civilian clothes, he dressed in his uniform. And he, and somebody said something or did something. And then he says, "Do you know why when you guys wear your uniforms, I'm not wearing uniform? And when you're wearing civilian clothes, I'm wearing my uniform? 'Cause I'm not you. I'm not like you." - There it is. - I'm up here. - Yep. - And even Tom Cruise does this thing where he goes, "It's Tom Cruise, David Miscavige, L. Ron Hubbard." That's the hierarchy of the world. - He says that to people. - 100%. Tom Cruise thinks David Miscavige is the bee's knees. He wants to be like Tom Cruise. And David Miscavige, no. Tom Cruise wants to be like David Miscavige. And David Miscavige wants to be like David Miscavige. - He wants Tom Cruise to be like David Miscavige. So they have-- - Have you seen that video of Tom Cruise in the black turtleneck? - In the black? - He's saying only Scientology can help if there's an accident. - Can we please find this? - Oh my gosh, where he says if there's an accident, Scientologists are the only ones who can help. - Wait, is this the leak from the film set? - No. - No. - No, that's audio only, I think. - Oh yeah, no, that's recent. - It was a video that was played at a Scientology event. - In 2004. - Yep. - Okay, yeah, I was thinking the old Matt Lauer, stop being clip. - Yeah, yeah, this is-- - Knock it off. - I actually cooked a little bit on that one. - Yeah. - Yeah, we'll give it, if you don't see the video, that means it was copyrighted, so we took it out. We'll react to it afterwards, but let's take a look at this. So this is from a while ago. - We'll see which one this is. - Oh, so Scientology might copyright us. - Yeah, there you go. - Oh yeah, this is it. - Yeah, this is it. - Scientologist. - I have seen that. - The reviews for his latest screen appearance have been awful. - I think it's a privilege to call yourself a Scientologist. - Yes, 100%. - This is Tom Cruise in a film leaked to the internet in praise of Scientology, what it has done for him, and what it can do for you. - We are the authorities on getting people off drugs. We are the authorities on the mind. We are the authorities on improving conditions. Criminon, we can't-- - This is a seer member doing this riff, based on-- - Based off of the Limp Bizkit version. - We can unite cultures. - Crowd boasts indeed, but then the Mission Impossible star has long been vocal about his support for controversial religion, regarded by many as a cult. - You get the idea, though. - Oh yeah. - Oh my gosh. - So when that video, that video was played in October of 2004 for Scientologists. So that video was never supposed to leave the Scientology bubble. But when you're a Scientologist, and Tom Cruise, Tom Cruise, and Tom Cruise is talking in Scientologies to you, then you're like, "Oh, he really 100% is a Scientologist." For many years in the '90s, and even the early 2000s, it was like, this guy never talks about Scientology to anybody. And when he divorced Nicole, it went hardcore Scientology, Scientology, Scientology. - That's also what's so strange too, because very famously, everyone seems to know now movie that's gotten attention more than it did when it came out is "Eyes Wide Shut," which they did together in 1999, which, you know, it's not Scientology, but it's a fucking, you know, giant elite sex cult. And you wonder how someone like that could participate in doing a film that serious and that viscerally, I might say, with his own wife, by the way, for whatever it was, a six-month shoot. And all that, and all the buildup to it. And then not be able to be like, "Huh, you know what? There's some patterns there." - It's funny that you say that, because during that time period, within Scientology, David Miscavige had two people in their camp. Nicole's personal assistant was a Scientologist, reporting to David Miscavige, and Tom Cruise's personal assistant was a Scientologist, reporting to David Miscavige. And they were married. These, both of the assistants were married. It was Andrea Dovan. - And Michael Dovan. - And Michael Dovan. And they worked, and they have credits on all the films that Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman did that time as an assistant. - And Michael and Andrea were reporting on Tom and Nicole to Scientology literally weekly. - Weekly. - And during that time, they knew that Tom was pulling away from Scientology. And somehow, someway, I like to joke about this, because it's just, it's kind of crazy, but when Nicole did a movie called "Moulin Rouge" with Ewan McGregor, and between the info that Scientology was getting from the assistants, it appeared that there may be something happening there on the "Moulin Rouge" thing, and Tom's pulling away, Nicole's off doing whatever she's doing. With, at the international headquarters, we were told by David Miscavige that Tom Cruise cannot have children, period. That's why they adopted two kids. Okay, so that's-- - Whether that's true or not is not the point. - Whether that's true or not. - That's what David Miscavige told the staff at the headquarters. - Okay, and that was also something that was maybe along the lines of Tom Cruise's ruin, that he can't have kids. So they adopt some kids. - Mm. - Him and Nicole adopt two kids. And then this thing happens on "Moulin Rouge", and it's sort of like, mm, there's something happening there. But then Scientology finds out that Nicole had a miscarriage. So they basically saw an opportunity to say, "Hey, listen, the reason all the craziness "is happening in your life and everything "is 'cause you're connected to a suppressive person, "and that's Nicole." - Oh. - And so-- - 'Cause she had a miscarriage. - Well, no, no, just because they weren't in Scientology anymore, really doing Scientology, and whatever's happening in his life is happening in his life. And they basically say, and then, and he knows about, or he's made aware of the miscarriage. And so then they immediately get a divorce. And she never says anything. It's all wrapped up with the lawyers. It's all good. There's nothing to do. So, whether or not that that is what happened, that's what Scientology gleaned and then kind of worked him over with. And then as soon as they split, he became 100% back in Scientology. - So that is the psychology that's fascinating to me when you look at a bonafide global superstar like Tom Cruise. So it's huge for Scientology to be able to have him and say he's one of our own, - Mm-hmm. - because the marketing obviously is like, oh, Tom Cruise is Scientologist. But it's also, he's just like everyone else out there. He has his insecurities. He has a big ego, not necessarily like everyone else, but he has that going for him. And so you catch him after a divorce with something like this to where you really pull him into the inner sanctum when he's vulnerable and he's probably feeling insecure. And you make this guy who, even though we all look at him, even back then, he was already very much a bonafide, global superstar, you make him realize that he's still at the mercy of people deciding whether or not he gets to be in a movie or not. So you play, and I'm just guessing here, you play on that insecurity to be like, yo, in Scientology time, just do what we tell you to do at the top, but you're gonna be the guy. You get to be the star. You get to be the person that all the lights and cameras are on. You don't have to try out for roles or whatever. And it makes him feel like, this is a bad way to put it, dwarf among midgets in that kind of place right there to the point that he actually believes he's a giant. - Yeah, and also him and Dave were hanging out a lot after the divorce. And even to the point where, I mean, this story came out in "Vanity Fair" years and years ago, but when we were still at the property in 2004, I worked for the production arm, the media production arm of Scientology. So making videos, putting on these events where you see Tom Cruise talking, shooting that video, which that has a crazy story, that video that got shot. - Wait, did you shoot that? - No, well, Golden Arrow Productions shot that video. Yeah, where I worked. I didn't shoot it personally, but that- - We were both there when that video was made. - That video was made three times. - Oh, you were there in the room? - Well, no, yeah, we were in the editing bays and yeah. - I worked on the video editing, in the video editing bay while that was being put together. - The video, that whole video that plays, David Miscavige spent days massaging every second and when the cut and when the music comes in and all that for that video. But there was two videos before that, that when they first, when Golden Arrow Productions set out to shoot, they basically, every year at the International Association of Scientologists event in England in October, they give out these awards that are called the Freedom Medal Awards. And it's basically, hot shot Scientologists that are moving and shaking and getting shit done. So, they give these guys what's called an IAS Freedom Medal. And it's just a gold medal like this. And it looks like an Olympic medal. - I think I, wasn't Tom Cruise wearing one of those in the leaked videos? - He got like a Flava Flav one, it was like a giant one. - Everyone, normal people got the Freedom Medal. He got the Freedom Medal of Valor. - Yeah, which I don't think anyone else has ever been awarded. - No. - He's got all his own stunts on those. - He does, yeah. - That is really, I like, I fuck with Tom Cruise movies. You know, movies not the man. - When that, when we were basically told, "Hey, Tom Cruise is gonna get a Freedom Medal this year." And we would normally have three winners. They basically said those guys can get their award next year. The only person who's getting an award is Tom. And we're gonna do this big, long video. - There you go. - We're gonna do the whole, we're gonna really, really spruce it up for him. And so they went, and Golden Air Productions arranged through, I guess, some of Tom's people that he worked with or whatever to interview, Steven Spielberg, Will Smith, whoever had worked with Tom in the industry to find out what he's like. And so all these interviews were being shot. And then David Miscavige caught wind of it. He was like, what are you doing? Who cares what celebrities think about Tom Cruise? This is a Scientology event. And we want this to be all about Scientology. Not that he does his own stunts. Not that he has a shitter trailer that's 20 feet long and he shows up to the set. So then a second video was started. And that was Jenna Elfman, Bodie Elfman, Erica, all the Scientology celebrities talking about Tom Cruise. And then David Miscavige, again, he's like, who gives a shit about this? These guys, they don't do fuck all in Scientology. They're useless to us as a celebrity. They're doing Tide commercials. Come on. They're not the level. They're not Tom Cruise level celebrities. So then he said, and you can kind of, if you watch the video, if you watch the video again, David Miscavige basically gives the essence of the video going, we want to know about who Tom Cruise is as a Scientologist. And the only person who can tell us how awesome Tom Cruise is, is Tom Cruise. So then that video became. Thus the video was born. That video, it became shooting these 30 people, these 30 people to just, no, we just need to shoot this one dude right here that the video's about. And so that's how that video came. It was a very small crew. Cameraman, sound guy, makeup girl, maybe a director. That's it. Four people with Tom in a chair. A chair. That's it. And a turtleneck, a nice black turtleneck. Have you ever seen the guy? I don't know his name. Maybe you'll know it. The dude on Instagram who takes really bad viral videos. Like when people say or do really stupid shit and like they play the video and then it cuts to him with the film crew back there. Yeah. Like they're like taking it off, like I need him. Like I need blood in my veins to do that Tom Cruise video. It would be amazing. Or they're wearing a Scientology shirt. Please, if you see this guy that does those videos, do that one. My favorite was when that video came out, there was a bunch of parody videos that were also coming out. There was a movie they made, like it was called like The Fly or something like that. And it had a Tom Cruise lookalike and he goes, "Oh, no, I can eat planets." He's wearing a black turtleneck in the same thing. He's like, "Yeah." It's like K in science. In the video, he says, it's like KSW, keeping Scientology working. And this guy's like, it's like KFC. You got to get that buck. Get that shit. And then I think Jerry O'Connell did a spoof of that video. So we had a lot of fun. When that came out, it was like, oh yeah, this is what we want to do. We want to basically show like Tom Cruise, when he's on the movie set, he talking Scientology anything. But when he gets in the room with the Scientology, he's like, "Oh yeah, this is what we want to do. We want to basically show like Tom Cruise, when he's on the movie set, he talking Scientology anything." But when he gets in the room with the Scientology, he's like, "Oh yeah, this is what we want to do. We want to basically show like Tom Cruise, when he gets in the room with the Scientology, he's like, "Oh yeah, this is what we want to do. We want to basically show like Tom Cruise, he pours it on." And the whole reason for that event, the International Association of Scientology event, is it's a fundraising event. So Tom Cruise is going, "Hey, I'm doing this. I'm doing this. I'm giving this money. I'm doing this. I'm talking about Scientology everywhere. And I'm getting people into Scientology. What are you doing as a Scientologist? And he's like, basically at the end of the video, at the end of the video where the interview, he goes up on stage and David Miscavige gives him the medal of the freedom medal of valor medal. And then they shake hands and then they salute L. Ron Hubbard on the stage. And Tom Cruise in that acceptance speech just blows smoke up Dave's ass about how awesome he is. Like literally, thank you, sir. I've met the leaders of leaders and you are among the top of, you know, and, and so. And meanwhile, by the way, David Miscavige was beating up the top executives of Scientology at the headquarters. And not only that, but he was. Tom Cruise offered to come down here and kick your asses to get your ethics in. Yeah. So Dave was basically telling Tom, this is Dave's version. We don't actually know if he did that or if Tom Cruise actually, cause this is coming from Dave, but he goes, yeah, I told Tom about all the bullshit I'm dealing with, with you guys. And he said, if, if, uh, if, if we wanted it, he'd come up here and kick your asses. And you're just like, you're a Sea Org member. Okay. You've been in the Sea Org, maybe 20, 30 years. Please don't kick my ass, Tom Cruise. Yeah, exactly. Come on, CNU. But you've been in this. And that's when David Miscavige said that thing. He says, it's Tom Cruise. It's me and L.R.H. Oh my God. And, but, but you've been a Sea Org member for 20, 30 years. And you're like, David Miscavige said, Tom Cruise is the most dedicated Scientologist I've ever met. And you're like. Bitch, I gave you 15 years so far. How can this guy be the guy now? He just, he just showed up. Yeah. But yeah, so that, that, but again, when Tom Cruise does something stupid or silly like that, then it's not good for him to be a Scientologist. Right. So they're the ones that directed the video. Yeah, exactly. So it goes both ways. The video was not the problem. It was that it was leaked to the internet. Yeah, it was. And David Miscavige's eyes, that's the perfect video. Yeah. Because he made it. And then, and then the savageness of the crowds can see it. And it's like, oh. Exactly. Your limp, limp biscuit wasn't very good. And also people were like, who edited this thing? And you're like, David Miscavige edited this thing down to every frame. You sure remember that? It was like, it wasn't you? No, no, I didn't edit it. No, David Miscavige even recorded the voiceover. For the guy to match. Yeah. So he recorded the voiceover that that guy's reading and then told that guy, listen to me in your ears when you read this, so you can make it the way I want it to be. Hey, listen, he has a vision. He's got a vision. Give him that. I'll tell you one other thing that David Miscavige made that he made that he thought was awesome that didn't turn out that way. Little old film called Battlefield Earth. Oh, yes. Did we talk about this with Mark Bunker? I think so. When that film was being made, David Miscavige was like the ghost producer of that movie. So he saw the costumes. He saw who we hired for special effects. He was watching that footage daily. He was seeing the dailies. This is the one with Travolta? Yes. That's based on the book Battlefield Earth by L. Ron Hubbard. And so when that movie was done, and he would tell us all the time, oh, I'm getting, we're seeing this and we're doing this. And we got one of the guys that worked on Star Wars is doing the effects on this. And they did Independence Day and, you know, whatever it was. And it's like, this is his baby. This is David Miscavige's baby. When that movie is done, he tells us this movie is the best movie ever made. And we all, we all had to go see this movie. If you were a Sear member at the base, they gave us money and they drove, they bust us to the move. The nearest to the. To the nearest AMC movie theater. And we had to watch it three times because they wanted to get the ticket sales. They wanted to get the ticket sales. What's that meme where they're holding the guys? Clockwork Orange. Yes. 100%. I snuck out on the second I'm playing it. I couldn't sneak out, but I slept through all three showings of it. I don't, if I remember correctly, if it was Mark Bunker that brought it up, I'm pretty sure when it got brought up on the podcast. Like this is coming back to me. Right. I had never seen any of this before. And then afterward, like we watched like a scene of it. And afterwards I went and watched the scene. I'm like, I can't believe this is real. Yeah. Like if SNL did this, you'd be like, all right, guys. Yeah. Yeah. It's a little too much. So then when that came out, panned by everybody as well. I think it won the raspberry for like the worst, worst film ever. And John Travolta won as worst actor ever. But far as Whitaker in it too. Yeah. And Barry Pepper. Yeah. So the director of that was Roger Christian. Barry Pepper's a Scientologist, right? No. No? They were trying to get him in. Okay. They were also trying to get Forrest Whitaker in. Yeah. They're trying to, yeah. They've tried to get a lot of people in. Yeah. But when that came out and then it was like, this is the worst movie ever. Tom Cruise called Dave Miscavige and he was like, what the fuck with this Battlefield Earth? Dave goes, I know John, that sea sucker. He threw it. He threw John right under the bus. Like he had nothing to do with it. So that's how David Miscavige, that's how, it's like nothing is ever his fault when it goes bad. Nope. It's this or that guy. Everybody else. Yep. But yeah, there's all kinds of craziness that goes on. goes on even in that sort of celebrity. In Hollywood, they have a giant castle on Franklin, Franklin and Bronson called the Scientology Celebrity Center. It's right next to the 101 freeway. - This isn't the blue building. - No, no, that's called the complex or big blue. And that's where there's a whole bunch of different Scientology organs. It used to be a Cedars-Sinai hospital and Scientology bought it in the '70s when they were building a whole new hospital. And then they made all of those buildings Scientology organizations. - That's the one flew over, it's the Cuckoo's Nest shit right there. - They're used to, when we were kids in the early '80s, we would run around in the basements where the morgues used to be down there. And there was like burnout bulbs down there. And it was like, it was the best scary place to go if you were a kid like, oh, we're gonna go down to the morgues today. - Yeah, this is normal. - Anyway, but at the Celebrity Center, that's where you have your Elizabeth Mosses and Michael Pena and kind of like the Scientology celebrity, Erica Christensen. Some of these guys that have been around for a while that are, if you're doing a commercial, if you're doing a Tide commercial, you get to go to the Celebrity Center. Anything from that up. And they have musicians and they have poets and it's sort of like where the Scientology artists go to do science. - Mm-hmm. - Scientology. Or just rich Scientologists that wanna hang out with celebrities. - Incidentally, that's also where we got married in August 1992. - Oh, yeah. - Oh, we're gonna come to your guys' story. - Yeah. - That's in the back of my head. - Yeah, no, it's all good. - I'm just loving all the expose here. - Well, I'm trying to think of, I'm trying to think of things that people might find, like how is it connected to the current zeitgeist? - Right. - You know, what's going on and all these different things. So, but the celebrities, even after that, after Tom Cruise gets the Freedom Medal of Valor and all this other stuff, or around that time period, and Dave Miscavige told us that this happened, he said, "Tom Cruise, I didn't tell him to do this." He rounded up all of those Scientology celebrities that we mentioned, the Elfman's and Michael, whoever was like a celebrity that could do something, Tom Cruise got all those guys together and he brought them to the Scientology Museum on Sunset Boulevard called, the psychiatry, the industry of death. Scientology. - They hate psychiatry. - They, psychiatry is like, they're like, those guys are messing with people, not us. These guys are doing crazy stuff, electroshock therapy and all these barbaric prefrontal lobotomies and all this stuff. - Hit your E-meter. - Yeah, and he, and Tom Cruise took all those guys through it and then at the end, he basically said, "You guys aren't doing anything. "You're not promoting Scientology. "You're not getting people into Scientology. "He's like, you best be getting to doing that "because I can make it "so that you don't ever work in this town again." - Whoa. - And so right after that, Jenna Elfman opens a Scientology facility in San Francisco and some of these guys kind of get to it and say, "Okay, we'll do some stuff." And they do a little bit. Danny Masterson was one of the people who started doing more Scientology stuff at that time. - Oh, so he got it talking too. - Yeah. - So all those, all the Scientology celebrities that are notable were part of that little meeting. And then David Miscavige told us, he said he did this and he's putting in ethics on his group of celebrities. And that's, and I think that segued into the, he'll come up and kick some asses if I want up here too, kind of thing. So Dave Miscavige portrays Tom Cruise as like his right-hand man. Another trusted individual who knows the burden that David Miscavige has to carry of trying to, you know, get Scientology to succeed and all this other stuff. - He's got small shoulders to carry that on too. - Well, yeah. - Shortly after that is also when Shelly Miscavige started the project to find Tom Cruise a wife. - Wait, what? Refresh me on that, please. - So Shelly Miscavige is the one who was running the project to find Tom Cruise a wife. Because by this point, now we're in late 2004, he had been in a relationship with Penelope Cruz. They had tried and failed to get her into Scientology and they broke up. - Do you know anything about the efforts to get her in? - Oh, 100%. - Okay, can we talk about that? Like, 'cause good for her for staying away from it. - For sure, yeah. - But what happened there? - So she was, and again, I should say, this is what we were told. - Okay. - Okay. But they had Jessica Feshbeck, who later became the handler of Katie Holmes, is a member of the Sea Organization and she, at this time, was working at Celebrity Center. She was doing counseling with Penelope Cruz. They got her onto the purification rundown. But Penelope, as we were told, was either into yoga or Buddhism or some other practices that were forbidden if you're gonna become a Scientologist. So that's kind of where the progress hit a brick wall. - You can't do yoga in Scientology. - They call it- - It's called other practices. - It's called mixing practices or other practices, so. - But Scientology accepts people of all religions, quote unquote. - They do, so they can make you not part of those religions. - I know, but for you, I know yoga obviously has some ancient traditions as well, but you know, do they let you bench press and squat? - Sure, you can go work out, but if you're doing some yoga nonsense, they'll be like, "Hey, hey, we don't do that here." - So no downward bending dog. - Yeah, yeah, none of that. - No meditation, no- - Yeah, you can bench press, you can do pushups, you can do pull-ups, but don't get in no doggy position. - That's right. Okay, so she was into something that was unacceptable. - Right, and that was, at least, again, as it was told to us, had gotten to the point where it was a big problem for Tom Cruise. - Right. - That she wasn't going further and further, and like, you know, taking it, so. - Yeah, how did they get, do you know, 'cause obviously it's secondhand here, like you said, but do you know what that conversation is like beyond Tom saying to her, "Hey, I wanna take you over "to my church," or whatever, like what the conversation is like once she gets there, and who talks to her, and how they approach the idea of like, "Hey, we're trying to pull you into the big thing right here." - Well, they don't really do it like that. I can give you personal experience, because at the International Headquarters, when Nicole, so he was married to Mimi Rogers in the early '90s, in the late '80s, and when Nicole-- - And Mimi Rogers, by the way, was born into Scientology. - Yeah, she was a Scientologist. She's the one who got Tom Cruise into Scientology. His first wife was the one who got him in. - In the '80s. - Oh, you know what, I think Mark told me that. - But when he was doing the movie "Days of Thunder" with Nicole, they started forming a relationship and then Mimi was out, and then Nicole showed up. Right after he shot "Days of Thunder," he was working at the International Headquarters, training and doing counseling in Scientology, at the Headquarters. - Tom Cruise. - And Nicole-- - Tom Cruise was training people. - No, he, yeah, well-- - He was learning how to do Scientology auditing. - Okay. - So that, when you do Scientology training, that means you're the one being trained. So he was learning how to become a counselor in Scientology, so that he could counsel people. - You have to counsel somebody else. But when you were very first starting out in Scientology, you have to counsel someone who's never had any Scientology counseling. You have to get somebody who's raw meat. They're fresh, clean slate. Well, I was so young at that time, and I hadn't done a lot of Scientology stuff, so I became his Scientology guinea pig that he would practice on. And I did that every day. I would go and I would sit down and go on the E-meter, sessions. Tom Cruise was his auditor. And so then, but Nicole, it was in a room probably twice, three times this big. We're going to come back to that, but please keep going. And in the room, we're sitting at a desk and he's doing the counseling. There's a table on the other side of the room. Nicole Kidman's there, Kirstie Alley's there. And they're also doing Scientology courses. So one of the first courses you do in Scientology, especially if you're a celebrity, is a course called the PTSSP course. And you learn about- - Potential Trouble Source Suppressive Person. - Yeah, so if you are what, if you have accidents or you get sick or anything in your life goes sideways, you are a potential trouble source in Scientology. And the only way that you can be a potential trouble source is if you're connected to a suppressive person. So Scientology celebrities do that as one of their first things, because if there's anybody in their friend group who's like, "Oh no, you shouldn't do Scientology." The people that say you shouldn't do Scientology have crimes against humanity. And they're worried that if Scientology succeeds, their crimes will be revealed. So they don't want you to do that because they don't want them. Those people that say, "Don't do Scientology," you immediately go, "Oh, he's done some shit." And don't listen to that person. So Nicole was doing that course when Tom Cruise was counseling me. So- How old are you again when this is happening? I'm-- At that time, was 92 i think when that happened 91 92 it was 1990 1990 you were 17 yeah 70s what 27 28 something like that something like that i remember specifically that he had longer hair than i'd ever seen him have in any top gun or whatever movies and when he came he had the days a cold trickle fucking hair which was kind of like uh just longish hair not you know combable not top gun yeah yeah anyway but um so you're sitting across i'm sitting across and even even i was told by the the seer members and religious technology center you're not allowed to tell anybody about this no one's to ever know that this happened this is like it's like he was even there at the headquarters let alone that that tom cruise was auditing mark yeah so when i when i went to go get the counseling every day i would go up get the counseling and then everybody on the property is supposed to do two and a half hours of studying of elron hubbard's works every day and most people do that from like 7 30 to 10 o'clock at night that's when their study time is where they study elron hubbard's works so during my time when i would go off to study i just wouldn't go to study i would go to the other side of the property and go get counseled by tom cruise and so when i came back i was just like oh i was i was on study with everybody else i wasn't i didn't go do that but then one of the days when you go and get counseling in scientology you have to have slept a certain amount of hours you have to have been well fed and you basically have to be present there in the counseling you can't just fall asleep which i did do one of the times when i fell asleep while he was counseling fall asleep on tom cruise yeah i fell asleep well because he's at they in scientology counseling they they ask you it's repetitive questions that you answer just over and over you could they could ask you the same question 50 times what might that be like um think of a place where you could communicate to that uh from where could you communicate to a a man yeah from where could you communicate to uh an ashtray whatever random to an ashtray and to anything to any objects like do you like try to do like ben and spoon shit or that comes later anyway really yeah you move a book in a bottle there's your intention it's called um opera by dupe and you have a book on one side of the room and a bottle on the other side of the room and so you're standing you're ambulatory according to the how this process goes and so tom cruise would say to mark look at that book walk over to it pick it up what is its color what is it what is its temperature put it back down turn around look at that bottle and you just do that over and over and over and over and over again anyway for hundreds of hours and then sometimes you do it on the e-meter so there's some walking around processing that you do yeah and then there's some where you're sitting there just answering questions or whatever yeah well when he was doing that i basically you know just faded and was just out you just fall asleep and if you are a counselor what they call an auditor scientology auditor if you're doing that and somebody falls asleep you are in huge trouble you fucked up so tom cruise is in trouble yes that's like the worst sin that your person you're supposed to be helping them spiritually and they're they're so bored with you that they fall asleep that's a huge thing but if you're tom cruise and that happens guess who gets in trouble i got in trouble so i had to switch my schedule and i had to do all this other stuff but one of the times before you go into session you have to be properly fed properly slept and all that and there's a test that they do on the e-meter where you take in a deep breath and then you let it out through your mouth and the needle on the e-meter is supposed to go all the way over to the other side of the dial or at least one to two inches for you to pass the test yeah and if you don't pass that test you're not well fed or you're not well rested or something's wrong what is the science big air quotes there of like the e-meter even working it's it's it's total bullshit it's total 100 so someone it measures resistance in your body essentially that's what it does and but it it moves supposedly well when you do a physical reaction like that it does move yeah but if it doesn't move a lot then you can't start the counseling yeah and so my buddy danny i was telling you about he had one yeah yeah on his there you go that's a mark that's called studio that's called a mark super seven quantum yeah they do a pinch test is it on there they do a pinch test to convince calibrate it yeah or no to to convince people that it is reading your thoughts a pinch the pinch test so you literally pinch somebody this is how the scientologists convince a person that this actually works and can read your thoughts and everything you hold the cans they pinch you and then the person administering the test says recall the moment of the pinch and then you'll see the needle react when they think about someone below the table moving yeah exactly scavengers down there ripping into lawn dart moving it but so i failed that test when i one of the days i went there it's called a metabolism test i failed the test and tom group tom cruise is like you ever take bee pollen oh my god and i'm like bee pollen like i'm like you literally heartbroken you literally heartbroken you literally heartbroken harvest the pollen from bees and it's like oh no you just they're like little uh like little candies you can just get them he goes i i've heard that bee pollen will help you pass a metabolism test so here i'm told no one can know that tom cruise is doing your counseling you're going to study like everybody else you're not going over to this other place it's top top secret and he's like they have bee pollen on the other side of the property in the canteen we had like a little store next to the dining area where you could buy like sodas and candy bars and shit like that and supposedly they had fucking bee pollen up in that bitch i didn't know anything about it and so he's like let's go down we'll go down we'll get some bee pollen and i'm like okay i'm like i don't know how we're gonna get there without anybody seeing it no just jump on a motorcycle i'm riding bitch on the back of his bike on tom cruise's motorcycle yeah we drive down there there's people coming and going from the dining hall it's during a meal break so there's people everywhere and i'm like uh uh yeah pretty sure the fucking secret's gonna get out now and this ain't and i'm not the one who did it it's him he he said we should go here oh you're blaming your life said tom's fault yeah tommy this is all on tommy boy okay mr risky business came up with this plan anyway so i take the bee pollen i don't remember if it worked or not or whatever it might have but then every day he was like are you taking vitamins or i'm like dude i'm gonna see work i don't i don't have vitamin money okay we're getting vitamin money we're getting we're getting 40 we're getting 40 clams a week i ain't spending it on vitamins dude oh my god was your personality like this though back then like were you affable and light like this pretty much pretty much i grew amazing i grew up in hollywood on the streets like on hollywood govart really when i was little and then as as i kind of got older i started going to the scientology schools but i was kind of a rebel at the even at the scientology schools and getting in trouble there and i had a few years where i went to a school in venice beach and i was like one of a couple of white kids in the entire school and so i got a lot of pavement fucking meetings against with my face and uh so when i went then from that back to a scientology school and someone says hey your mother's this or what's your mother's this or whatever you just beat the shit out of them oh at scientology school you did i did yeah there you're not supposed to do that in the scientology school but i've been at this other place that where that's how that's how the rules were and then bring that into the yeah and so here i'm with all these white lily kids and they're like they're like hey your mom you go bitch you know and then it's like hey whoa whoa we don't do that here i'd be like well then stop talking about my fucking mom and dad you were never you never felt compelled to do that to tom cruise with anything he said not tom cruise um david miscavige i did have a dust up with him one time and he would when we would have meetings so we would go into a meeting with him like after lunch like one two o'clock and then we would literally be in that meeting the whole afternoon through the dinner break and maybe in eight o'clock or nine o'clock that night in one meeting talking about what talking about all the plans that he has that we're not working on we're not getting done how everyone's doing and we're not getting done how everyone's doing and for a while my my i used to be in the manufacturing division then i was in the cinematography division then i was in the pre-production i was in many parts of golden era productions and at a certain point i was the producer so i was over all the production areas for golden era productions and from that post uh any plan that david miscavige had for any area somehow i was connected to it either if it's courses we're supposed to produce videos we're supposed to produce The pictures we're supposed to produce. So I could end up in meetings with him two or three meetings a day because he's going to meet on the event that we're having, this IAS event that's coming up in October. Okay, good. And then after lunch, we're going to meet on what's happening on scripts for films. So I was in meetings with him many days all day, and he would beat the shit out of people in meetings. Punch them, kick them, shove them up against a wall, throw shit at them, choke them. Do people naturally react to it? No, everybody is just like, please not me, please not me, please not me, please not me. If you're going to a meeting with Dave and he's already a little randy, someone's going to get a file folder with a bunch of VHS tapes in their face. He literally would take these legal manila folders and we put VHS. Tapes in it for him to approve an offline edit or an online edit or a music mix or a final mix down or whatever. And he would take one of those with maybe three of these hard shells with the tapes in it, and he would fucking hit you in the face with the goddamn thing. Have you seen the, you've seen Elf movie? He's an angry elf. He's an angry elf. He's a South Pole elf. That is literally the best representation. And he has climbed across a table like Peter Dinklage and throttled somebody. Oh, that's so good. Yeah. I hope he watches these, I really do. Yeah, well, the Office of Special Affairs 100% watches us, transcribes it, and puts it into our file. Great. But we were having a meeting like that. And, or he was having a meeting. And he came to the area where I was working, which at this time, I was over manufacturing of CDs, cassettes, DVDs, and basically the videos and audio that come out of Scientology. And I had been demoted from the producer post to that post over manufacturing because I had suggested that in order to produce all these lectures and everything that David Miscavige wanted to produce by a certain time, I needed about $10 million. And I was able to get $10 million worth of equipment to be able to build out the printing lines and all of the production lines and the packaging to be able to produce hundreds of thousands of these CDs of L. Ron Hubbard's lectures. They're doing lectures in English, Spanish, German, French, Spanish, Castilian, you know, like 14 different languages. They're doing VO talent, re-recording L. Anyway, and then I got, because I said we needed all this money, I got removed. And I got put in the area directly running the area that I was proposing needed all this money. And he was walking through about six months later after spending $15 million on equipment for that area. And he said, now this is set up right. And under, I'm walking through everything with him now that it's all built and all set up. And he goes, yeah, this is the right way to set this up. Nobody. Nobody else could have done this. And I'm standing right there and I lost my job, my high position because I wanted to spend 10. And so under my breath, I was like, well, yeah, fucking, if you have extra fucking 5 million, you could probably do whatever you want. He heard it. And he was like, what the fuck? And he just come from one of these meetings, angry elf meetings. And so he was already fucking wound up and he fucking just started punching me. I used to have glasses. He's punching me. The glasses fell off. I got like shoved up against like a desk kind of cabinet system, wall mounted cabinets. And I'm just like, what the fuck? Anyway, I pick up my glasses and I'm like, you know, let's go, bitch. And two guys grabbed me from either side and carried me out of the building. And as they were carrying me out, he goes, did you see that? He was going to fucking punch me. And I was like, yeah, damn straight, Skippy. Fucking. It's enough. And I left about three months. I escaped about three months after that. Because if the pope of your cult gives you the beat down, it's not a lot of opportunities opening up for you after that. So, but that's a Tuesday. Yeah. He could literally come into your area. You say something, sets him off. Or choke, a little throttle. Around the neck. And the other thing is they have like a reprogramming camp in Scientology called the Rehabilitation Project Force. And it's like basically a little prison reprogramming camp within the Sea Org only. Within the Sea Organization is the only one that has this. And you wear all black. You work. Do hard labor. Most of the day. Could include scrubbing dumpsters with a toothbrush, cleaning floors. Construction. Construction. Yeah. Landscaping. And you have to run everywhere. And you're not allowed, if you're in the Rehabilitation Project Force, you're not allowed to communicate with anyone outside of that. Only spoken if spoken to. Yeah. And then five hours a day you're interrogated for your evil purposes. For your evil purposes. That's what they call it. Against David Muscat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Miscavige, L. Ron Hubbard, or Scientology. And who interrogates you? Someone who does that full-time? Another person that's assigned to the rehabilitation project for us. You're like, you do it to each other. Oh, my God. You learn how to do the interrogations. Prisoner's dilemma. And then you interrogate each other. It's the most efficient system. Yeah. Wow. So there's always the threat that if you say the wrong thing or you do the wrong thing, there's a suppressive person avenue where you get kicked out. Now you can't talk to your family. There's the RPF version where you have to go to the prison camp. And you could be – I think one of the longest stints that somebody had on that was like 13, 14 years of the program. And you keep getting interrogated until there's no evil purposes that read on the e-meter. As long as they think they're – they use the e-meter as like an evil thought dividing rod. An evil thought dividing rod. Yeah. They use the e-meter. And like if I ask you a question, I say, is there anything you did today that I shouldn't know about? And then it goes – I go, oh, yeah, that right there. What did you just think of? And you go, well – No, it's not the answer. If it reacted on the e-meter, we're going to keep talking about it until you answer the question. And then when you're done telling me what you did, the needle is supposed to float. It's supposed to be very free and flowing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If it's like that, we're good. We're done. We don't need to talk about that anymore. But until it gets to that thing, we say, was there an earlier similar overt that you did? And you keep going until the needle is smooth and flowing. That means your shit don't stink. You're clean as a whistle. Yeah. Rhythmic sweep of the dial back and forth. That's how it's described. So you can go to the RPF. You can get declared or you can get a shit kicking from David. David Miscavige. Which do you pick? I didn't realize he was like that violent all the time. 100%. I would say starting in the early 90s all the way up until I left in 2005, he was giving beatdowns on a regular basis. Now, he was born into Scientology, right? He got in as a young kid. He got in as a child. His father got into Scientology. His parents got into Scientology. And then he started doing the counseling. He started doing the counseling and stuff when he was young. Like he was a certified counselor when he was like 14 or 15. So he had done all the training and graduated, whatever they needed to do, to be able to do counseling on other people very young. And then shortly thereafter, he joined the SEA organization. And then he ended up in – he was in Clearwater. That's where he kind of started. And then he got – went up to the headquarters in Los Angeles and then also at the property. And then he started working in Gilman Hot Springs. And then he worked for Hubbard in various roles, including being on the shoot team that did the videos, did the film, that shot everything on either 16-millimeter or then 35-millimeter film for all the Scientology training. Gerbils learning under Hitler kind of deal. Exactly. And so that's another crazy thing is because he was – he wasn't well-liked by Hubbard. Hubbard talked mad shit about him. About Muscat. Yeah. In certain writings. Yeah, 100%. Shelly Muscavige was way closer to Hubbard than David Muscavige ever was. Shelly Muscavige grew up on a ship that Hubbard was operating at sea. And that's where the SEA organization started. And she was working directly for L. Ron Hubbard. How young? 11, 12. I think she was 11 when she joined the SEA organization. I mean, you know what I got to ask? Was he abusing her? I don't know. We've talked to many of the girls, mostly girls. Young girls that were his – they called them messengers. It's called the Commodores Messenger Organization. And so – You have young females that are working directly for Hubbard. And when they go to anywhere in Scientology, whether it's an organization or just another Sea Org member, whatever they say is as if L. Ron Hubbard was saying it. Anything that they do or say is basically coming from him. So we probably know, what, five or six of the people over the years that used to work directly for Hubbard in this position. That were messengers on the same ship with Shelley Miscavige. And two of one, none of them that we've talked to say that he had any sexual abuse with them. There were many things that were incredibly creepy. Like what? Like, you know, that he would have them wear halter tops and carry around his ashtray and bathe him and, you know. Bathe him. Mm-hmm. And, yeah, there's definitely. Like the creep factor. The creep factor was out the roof. And also, he was very verbally abusive to all of them would say, well, yeah, he never touched me, but he did everything before up until that point. So he got tight with Shelley, though, because she was one of these originally. Well, yeah. So when the Sea Organization was moved to land, it moved to land in Clearwater. Well, Daytona Beach for a little bit. And then they moved to Clearwater. When they bought that big hotel, they were like, we got it. We got our beachhead there. And actually, I want to say the project to infiltrate Clearwater and set up the headquarters of Scientology there was called Project Normandy. Maybe. I'm pretty sure it was called Project Normandy. Anyway. Oh, God. But either way, so Shelley and Dave met there in Clearwater. And then they. Became a thing. But in the in the history of it all, David Muscat. Was it Project Normandy? Yeah. I'm going to say it was a top secret Church of Scientology operation wherein the church planned to take over the city of Clearwater, Florida, by infiltrating government offices and media centers. Gabe Cazares, who was the mayor of Clearwater at the time, used the term the occupation of Clearwater and later characterized it as a paramilitary operation by a terrorist group. Yeah. Wow. They were honest about it. Well, in that time, that was when the Guardian's office was in full swing. And they I think they actually framed they framed a bunch of these people and specifically Gabe Cazares. They they they accused him of doing all kinds of horrible sexual things. And they also I think is he the one there was one of some of the people that were kind of messing with Scientology and Clearwater. They arranged. For a Guardian's office member who was also a lawyer to represent somebody that was trying to sue Scientology. So they had their guy representing the guy that was doing them so that that person got screwed. You know, Bert, you know, Bert Kreischer, of course, Bert Kreischer's dad was a lawyer in Florida, and he won one of the very few cases in those days that were Scientology. got lit up and hubbard had to pay and it was chrysler's dad chrysler's dad that apple fell far from the tree but now no no this is the best part as soon as he won that case l ron hubbard hired him no and he never did anything but they hired him because he's one of the lawyers that could win against them so um and around i think bert's talked about it on different podcasts here and there but it was just known as the church around the house because they put him through college it was a legendary college career right yeah anyway so they created the machine oh my god scientology what is that they co-opted the machine they uh they sponsored the machine i feel like it was against scientology standards though well yeah no yeah they they just locked up his dad because his dad won a case against hubbard so hubbard was like we need that that guy needs to be on our paper not on the other side that's the tony soprano method when you're getting divorced from your wife just consult with every single good divorce lawyer in the area and then they can't fight that's right now she's uh up a creek conflict of interest anyway so at the base there was a at the end base there was a lot of people there that either worked on the ship with hubbard or they were in clearwater in the early days and so a lot of these people knew what hubbard would do in certain situations and they would say dave ain't doing what hubbard would have done and hubbard said you don't have conventions because they everybody stops doing scientology now they're working on setting up an event and you don't do that dave muscavige has seven eight conventions a year to get money from scientists if he was so made fun of by elrond hubbard though how did he finagle his way into the position to be the guy well he was before he was what he's now called he's called chairman of the board religious technology center before that he was chairman of the board author services incorporated and author services is it's essentially a publishing firm or a management firm just for elrond hubbard they have one artist literary for all his science fiction and all that thing that he wrote they get a royalty okay so when you do a course in scientology elrond hubbard gets paid because you're using the materials that are based on his writings in this course and so there's a huge amount of money that goes to that well when hubbard was still alive he was very suspicious that they were stealing his money and he demanded them to bring him a banker's box of about a million bucks in a banker's box would get secretly delivered to him when he was out in the desert in california and every week they'd bring him a box and maybe a few weeks they'd bring him two boxes and then he'd get half a box and he'd be like what's going on here and so david muscavige david muscavige supposedly lost about 30 million dollars of hubbard's of money like he he invested in things that were like fake oil wells in oklahoma and there's a book called it's called the deep blue sea and it talks about these scientists and these like ocean scientists that figured out where how the tides moved and how things moved over the years and based on that they would take records or any writings of of treasure ships that had sunk with treasure and figure out where they'd be now and then go there and dig those people went to scientology and they went there and they were trying to figure out where the gold was and they figured out where the gold was and they went to scientology and said hey we got we got a sure thing going here and david muscavige just got burned by all the fake oil wells he's like no i ain't doing it and then they'd find it all and they'd find billions and billions of dollars with the gold and in this book the deep blue sea they talk about how they were they went to scientology to get money from them to invest it didn't work out but so uh dave muscavige started doing this thing where they would sell limited edition books and artwork from hubbard's books frank frazetta very famous uh painter of the day uh i don't know what his name is but he was a painter artist did a bunch of uh paintings based on the battlefield earth books and the mission earth uh science fiction series and then scientology would sell these as collector's items for like fifteen thousand dollars a print and so the reason they started doing that yeah there you go yeah deep has it he's quick on the draw here uh deep is the fastest in the game anyway so yeah so they would sell these limited edition prints to scientologists mostly and that's how they got to the point where they were like oh my god i'm gonna sell this thing to a million dollar hole by selling this oh and books hubbard books leather bound editions there's i'm telling you there's there's about 30 or 40 of these paintings limited edition like one through 500 they're selling them for 15 20 30 000. god he wasn't around he didn't get on the nft craze oh my goodness i mean so i'm bored body thetans he would have been they would have been swimming in 2021 so so so somehow they were able to get a lot of money out of that hole and so they he never it never came to light that he had lost the money because he he made it up with all this other money but elrond hubbard didn't like him but well he suspected he was up to no good right and so during that time though there was a project that david miscavige was in charge of which was called the all clear where they so hubbard wasn't being hunted by law enforcement and the fbi and all these different agencies because he was up they were scientology was up to no good and they had just and there were pending lawsuits they just got convicted in the guardian's office thing they 11 i think i want to say it's 10 or 11 of scientology's top officials including elrond hubbard's own wife 12 went to jail for the infiltration of the united states government his own wife went to jail yeah she mary sue hubbard went to jail up for the this operation that the guardian's office was running and after she got out of jail she was banished and literally written out of scientology's history um until she passed very similar to shelly miscavige right yeah we'll come back to that because i have questions anyway yeah quick question though on this real fast because you keep talking about all these different cases whether it's things that would be civil or criminal or whatever and of course it rings through that it seems to me whenever the courts outside of scientology are going to be useful to scientology they're like oh yeah yeah see the court we can do that in coordinate works but whenever it's going to be unuseful they're like yeah no fuck that they don't mean anything 100 right scientology threatens to sue people all the time yeah they never do they don't they do not they threaten to sue people they don't sue people the last person i think that they sued was debbie cook um it was a case in texas and she was one of the top executives she ran the clearwater location for decades um it was a case in texas and she was one of the top executives she ran the clearwater location for decades and then she was taken to the headquarters and david miscavige abused her physically and um like made her stand in a trash can and have people throw water at her and stuck a obscene label around her made her wear a anyway absolutely awful um and she had spoken out oh she sent a letter to send an email yeah she sent an email to thousands of the ones that were the top level ot7 and ot8s she sent an email to all of those yes exposing what her experiences were and they sued her and lost and they ended up right yeah they ended up right well they didn't lose they ended up writing a check they settled yeah they settled but because usually when or whether it's scientology or anyone obviously the court strategy is all right we're suing one person we'll just keep creating hearings so they have legal bills and it goes away kind of deal so yeah imagine but her testimony was so damning that that's why they were like shut it down settle after one day of testimony they wrote her a check yeah because she basically told she she told many of the things that that miscavige was up to at the headquarters that people like us had already been telling people all over the place and now here's a brand new person that just left that's what she does is he's beating people he's choking people he's being like it's basically like being in a college fraternity full-time yeah you're just being hazed full-time exactly and so um then somebody high up one of his lieutenants escapes and then they go no that was he that's the guy that was doing it and so every time one of those people would leave they would scientology be like david miscavige wasn't doing that that was this guy and he was the guy that was doing it and so we kicked him out and so here after all these people have been kicked out that they were throwing under the bus now this woman comes out there's no more lieutenants left it's just dave left and she's saying oh no dave's the one who's running this whole show he's the one doing all this stuff and so since that time i don't think scientology has sued one single person they get sued and then they get in to just when they abuse the discovery process now that we're in together they'll say they'll literally take the biggest vacuum in the world and try to suck up every document that's ever been created in your life right but they don't they know if they get in front of a jury they're toast that's their worst nightmare they i don't think they have ever in their history won a jury trial never never it always goes against them so they want to they want that thing to be prolonged for as many decades as possible until that the person just says i'm i'm out i can't keep i'm i've spent eight million dollars trying to get four million out of you guys what the hell are we doing yeah so they and if it does go if it's going to go to trial usually they're giving the person a check on the courthouse steps yeah scientology tries to use and abuse the legal system to destroy anyone that would try to come after them or expose them like during the um our lawsuit when we eventually lost our attorneys went to scientology and said hey um our clients we're oh so the judge had awarded them forty three thousand dollars in legal fees that we were required to pay we were ordered to pay because we lost that guy we lost the suit and so and the legal fees the only reason they were even forty three thousand dollars was because scientology is paying for as many things as they can they were so that they can but here's what happened so our attorneys unbeknownst to us turned to scientology and said hey our clients will sign something that will you know they won't sue you again in the future do you agree to waive that bill which our attorneys didn't even tell us they were doing this scientology unethical well so apparently it's sort of standard practice like it's it is apparently standard practice at least according to our law it's sort of standard practice but it's standard practice at least according to our law it's sort of standard practice at least according to our attorneys to say hey we'll agree to not you know we waive future rights for a lawsuit if you agree to let this bill but we would have to sign them right you have to be consulted on that well no no yeah we should have been this is where it's above my pay grade okay but so scientology turned around to that and said no no no we will only waive the bill if your client meets the following requirements uh agrees to never speak publicly about scientology ever again we will only waive the bill if your client meets the following requirements uh agrees to never speak publicly about scientology ever again turns over the rights to mark's book blown for good behind the iron curtain of scientology rats out any media they've ever spoken to rats out any former members they've ever spoken to if they meet those requirements we'll waive the bill so of course we were like we we said no and i wrote him a check for 43k and that was the end of it so but what was real quick i just because you had said this earlier and and i i didn't ask you but what what was the story with them your lawyers i don't remember if you said unbeknownst to us or or or how you put it it was a couple hours ago but like your lawyers had all these other charges against scientology and they just reduced it down to human trafficking why did they reduce the other things what was the logic there because there was a an ongoing fbi investigation into scientology for human trafficking right but why did that answer to that is that scientology obviously has by now billions of dollars and they hired the best law firms and we were just us with one guy and they were burying him in paperwork and this and that and the other thing so basically they were you know using their high-powered attorneys to to whittle down our our causes of action and given that the fbi investigation was ongoing it seemed like okay maybe this is a a reasonable it wasn't we lost but hey we wouldn't be here speaking to you today if we'd won so right but that also that's the that was where i was a bit confused because you mentioned you guys at the time and we can come back to that we're we're informants for an fbi investigation your lawyer's job i understand like he's getting inundated with paperwork and everything but his job is still to do best fiduciary responsibility to the client his responsibility is not to cooperate with the fbi i understand and he wasn't involved with the fbi side of this thing right it was just that it was happening the lawyers are like if the fbi think they have a case then this is how we should go because they're not the fbi are not opening an investigation and actively interviewing and looking for informants if they don't have something that they think is a real deal they got a year is this this is in 2010 10 9 10 in that kind of period our lawsuit was 2009 until 2012 and by the way you know i i will say going into it i had no i just i just didn't realize how aggressively scientology would have gagged us even if if we had one so in the overall scheme of things we played the best possible outcome and and to be fair a lot of of this information about david miscavige is abuse and a lot of these things made it in to the public because of the fact that we're not going to be able to do anything about it we're not going to do anything about it because it was filed in the court case and they had to it was public record at this point and there were different things that came out of it that ended up being in the end a good thing but the other thing i was going to say just to kind of you know not throw the lawyer under the bus but i mean i was giving him gas money to drive from northern california down to our house i we claire was going to walk i had to we had a six-month-old we had a six-month-old our second son was six months old at the time i literally carried his car seat into the federal chambers to deliver filings in our lawsuit yeah it was we were doing this on a shoestring budget yeah trying to sue uh it was a literal david and goliath yeah notorious uh litigant and it was like the lawyer we had was the one lawyer who would sue scientology it wasn't like there were 20 of us it was like it was like a whole bunch of people who were like oh my god and we had to pick. You could go to any law firm in the world and say, hey, we want to sue Scientology and be like, fuck that, dude. Those guys go decades on a case. We don't have that kind of change to do that. So it's one of those things where you get what you pay for. But you're also – the reason I was asking like specifically when it was because if it starts in 2009, you guys are now three, four years out. Right. Which is not that – like it's not that long a time. No. You're still adjusting to the world and how things really work and what a real court system is like. So it's not like you know, oh, here's the 100 best law firms in New York and here's why they're the best. Here's what – you have no idea about any of that. None. Well, how we ended up with the lawyer that we had was that my friend, my good friend who also left Scientology around the time we did, he was an actor and he shot a bunch of Scientology films at the property when I was over at the film team. And it's a guy by the name of Jason Begay. He's on a TV show called Chicago PD now. He's like the main – Wait, Jason Begay? Yeah. I know that name. Yeah. He's the main cop on Chicago PD, the TV show on NBC. Anyway, he was like, I think I should sue these guys. I gave them millions of dollars and they gave me nothing and they messed me up if anything. And so I was trying to help him find a lawyer to sue Scientology. And so we met. We met with these guys and we met this lawyer and he was listening to Jason and Jason's telling him all the things that happened. And the lawyer's like, I don't think you have a case. And Jason's like, well, she – you know, da-da-da-da-da. He goes, but you – I want to know your story because I think you do have a case. And that's me. And so then we started – By the way, right around this time, Jason did an interview with Mark Bunker that is still on YouTube to this day. Probably his most viewed video, I bet, is this Jason Begay interview. And Jason's a character. He is. And he's lots of fun. But he – My favorite line from that video is, show me a motherfucking clear. Yeah. Yeah. He was literally like – they talk about clear all the time. Show me a motherfucking clear. I ain't seen one. Yes. I ain't clear. It's the best. Anyway, but regardless, like I said, we didn't have the pick of the litter of the Scientology-capable lawyers that would go up against them. And the crazy thing is, is there was like three or four cases that all got started at the same time by this lawyer. Another law firm out of Long Beach, California, ended up picking up those cases. And when that happened is when they kind of said, okay, we're going to do this on this case. We're going to do this on this case. Like the cases were – similar but different enough where they could have different causes of actions. And our case ended up getting dismissed or lost on appeal. And then another case ended up just – they just went kaput. It didn't go anywhere. And I think one other case, the people got converted by Scientology and they went back. And so the case was dead. They let those – it was a couple. And they let the couple talk to their Scientology family again. They said, if you cancel this, you're good. You're done. You're back in the fold. We're not going to declare you suppressive. You can do whatever you want. And they were like – they were a young couple. And so they jumped right back into the fray. It's so strange because when I hear the experiences of individuals like you guys who used to be in it, the only way that I can really visualize it and the suppression and the constant like staring at each other like, are you going to say it? Are you going to say it? I'm going to report you if you do, but I'm not going to tell you a lot if you do. But it's like everyone in there is in the Truman Show. Yeah. You're all Truman. 100%. And there are – that's funny that you say that. There's a lot of people that have likened it to the Truman Show. Yeah. Because it's a whole world of bullshit. Yes. And the only ones who know that it's bullshit is David Miscavige and everybody else is there to save the planet. They're earnestly. They're trying to help people because they've been told that this is the answer. Now, that's my question. Do you think – you're not in his head, so it's impossible to know. But do you think that someone like David Miscavige who bought into this for probably power purposes at a young age, really true blue believer the whole bit, even though he's at the top and knows shit now, do you think he's so personally self-brainwashed that he might actually believe that some of it's true? I don't think he does. I don't think so either. Yeah. I mean – And there are a few factors. First of all, David Miscavige, while we were there, had not gotten any counseling, auditing, study, done any of that since 1993. So if you're going to measure someone's belief by their active participation in and expectations that everyone else is required to meet, then you should judge that person by their actions. And by his actions, hell no. He's – He's selling the supplement, but he ain't taking it. Yeah, he's not doing the product. As the saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely. That's my opinion of David Miscavige. And the other thing that I think kind of leans into that is when he did that thing where he lost the money for Hubbard and then he got it back. And during that time, he was in charge of this thing to make it so no one was trying to hunt down or arrest L. Ron Hubbard. It was called Project All Clear, where Hubbard can just walk around like, a normal person, not worried about getting bagged up and taken to jail. So Hubbard is saying, hey, I want you to set – he's in seclusion. He's in hiding. Nobody knows where he is. Even in Scientology, nobody knew where he was. It was a very top secret wherever Hubbard's location was. But David Miscavige was talking to the guy that was the conduit between the two of them. Yeah. And when David is trying to do all this stuff, legally, he doesn't know where he is. Legally, to make it so Hubbard can be just cool again, he's the one hiring the lawyers. He's the one reworking, retooling the corporate structure. He's the one – he's the only one in Scientology who knew how it was all going to work so that Hubbard couldn't get lit up again. When he figured all that out, he was like, oh, I know more than anybody. Everything is siloed. He's like, I know more than even L. Ron Hubbard knows on how this is going to work. And then Hubbard dies. And Hubbard put the guy that was the conduit between the two of them, he told that guy – or so the story goes, he told that guy, you and your wife are going to be in charge. Not David Miscavige. But David Miscavige was like, oh, no, I got this, bitch. I've already set this all up. You have no power. You don't exist. And that guy – But he had to get support to do that. Well, that guy was a – what they call in Scientology – an opinion leader. If he says something, Scientologists will listen to what he has to say. But that guy was also the guy that was bringing those banker boxes to Hubbard. And so David Miscavige is like, dude, I got you bringing millions of dollars across state lines. You want to mess with me? You're done. So the story goes that that dude had a pickup truck. His name was Pat Broker. Pat Broker. Pat Broker had a pickup truck. And he filled it with a whole bunch of banker boxes and he drove off into the sunset. And David Miscavige – And David Miscavige, that's when he takes over Scientology in 1986. In January of 1986 is when Hubbard died. And that's essentially when David Miscavige's total reign started. He was kind of a head honcho down here working for Hubbard. But as soon as Hubbard was gone, it was like – This is all mine now. And then after that, he systematically took out anyone who would have been competition. But by the way, before I forget, speaking of true believers, Shelley Miscavige? Yes. Different story completely. How so? 100% full-on, firm, solid believer in Scientology and Hubbard and everything else. And frankly, I'm sure that's a huge piece of why David Miscavige got rid of her and put her into – They do now – It's like where is Shelley Miscavige for years? But they do now know where she is, right? Well – Is that fair to say? It's not – To me, the point is not – The question where is Shelley Miscavige still stands because Shelley Miscavige is not free to leave. She hasn't been seen publicly since 2006, I want to say, 2005. Shortly after we escaped, she was moved. She was moved to one of their most secure, least known properties in Running Springs, California. If you factor in, from our perspective, Shelley Miscavige was like the first lady of Scientology. She was always at David Miscavige's side. She was his assistant. She was with him in every meeting, copied on all the correspondence. She was involved in everything. And then all of a sudden, poof, she's just gone. the significant, like from a Scientologist perspective or for anyone at working at that property that when she was gotten rid of and removed and vanished it was a huge shock to the system it's basically like she was the she was the governor on david miscavige being crazy like without her there he would go really crazy do you think there was real love there i never saw it yeah we were there i was there for 15 years i never saw them hug once i never saw them kiss once i never saw them hold hands and i was in meetings with him some days all day for weeks and weeks and weeks we'd be in meetings with him and she'd be right there no they no pda in scientology yeah and in fact on the contrary in a conversation i had with shelly miscavige she indicated she didn't outright say but she heavily implied that she was getting the same abusive treatment that other executives were physically yeah so how did how did they end up getting married what was the story there again we started to talk about that and got off well they met in clear water it was they got married i want to say in the early 80s um but they were both messengers they had you know both been in the sea organization for years and by that point and i want to i have it in my notes somewhere but i think they were like 19 and 20 when they got married um and i think they were like 19 and 20 when they got married young yeah yeah we got married i was 19 and she was 17. so we've been married 34 years now almost almost 34 years 34 years in august yeah so married in vegas oh you got married in vegas in california if you're under age and you go to get a marriage certificate you have to go see a psychologist or a psychiatrist they have to sign have that they have to sign off on it it's a psychology is like if you want to get married uh and you're in the c organization you got to go to vegas because you can get married at two o'clock in the morning with vegas you go to the county clerk is open 24 hours in vegas so you can get married anytime you want and it's like 28 dollars and you don't need to do anything yeah because you're not allowed to have sex in the c organization because you're not allowed to have sex if you're not married in the c organization the tendency is for people to get married really young uh and so most people most seer members you don't get a test drive either you gotta you gotta find the model you want and commit so most seer members i'm holding in so many jokes so seer members there was enough seer members that are underage that are getting married they knew the exact way what's the most efficient way to do it yeah you get one of your family members in scientology to drive you to vegas you get married because we didn't have a car of course and then you come back and you're anyway the point being there are a lot of uh young marriages that happen in vegas right and this and this is actually interesting not to be like a little awkward about it but because you guys were also in a separate world but i just had chris hansen in here you know that is yeah yeah so obviously like he's the expert on you know the legality of of child abuse and all that and i said to him i said you know let's say i'm a junior in high school and i meet my high school sweetheart and she's a freshman in high school and we then commence a sexual relationship and then i turn 18 and she's 16 like is that statutory rape and he had a full legal explanation he's like well no here's how it would work all that but he goes once it gets to like four years you're fucked or something like that so when you guys are going to get married at 19 and 17 technically you're underage you're of age yeah so there was a league there was a legal loophole as you were just explaining to be able to do it in vegas but also i think i want to say her parents had to sign a document that we could get married or no they don't they so my parents signed over guardianship of me when i was 16 not to him no that would have been really i got a few tricks up my sleeve um i can see the look on your face blink twice if you're a hostage i got you it's been 34 years she's not turning on me now okay no but that's why i don't i don't think i can't remember what it was then i thought oh maybe i just had to ask him maybe we just asked him or we said you were gonna do it yeah they were like they were not um pro the idea at first and uh and then i went and said i don't know i don't know they visited them for a day and they warmed up to me without her without her yeah i couldn't get off uh work she wasn't allowed to leave the property you were alone with can you with her parents and her sisters my parents without me yeah i couldn't believe it and yeah how do you schmooze a scientology couple like what's you're not bringing over red wine no no no i didn't bring shit to that i walked in with probably eight dollars in my pocket um you know the language that's how yeah well also except you but also because i was a c-org member because they're so they're not her mom was a c-org member but then it left yeah so her mom was in status her mom and her stepfather were lower status than i was yeah because i'm at the headquarters of all of scientology as a c-org member working for golden air production and working in production and all this stuff so when i come there um i'm not like a big head honcho make me a sandwich but i'm well oh my gosh dude her mom is english and she don't sit down to eat until the dad's done she's making him everything doing this doing that so when i showed up there it was like here's here's your place and here's that and i was like i was like damn we got hope hope the young one rolls like this as well i like this this is i never been treated like this by my own mom but um but no so when i went and saw them i would i i was basically um she has two younger sisters and a younger brother and and i do good with kids and i was hanging with the kids and i was talking to the mom and dad and i was basically just vibing with them for a day and then i got back to the property at the end of the night and i was like we're good i got those guys she couldn't even believe that i went when we when she didn't get i was trying to go too but then i was disapproved to leave and he said well i'm going and i was like i could not believe it i was like you're gonna go meet my parents without me i'm like yeah what do i need you for i can i can i can lock this down it was nerve-wracking what's the mogging term for that it's not it's obviously not frame mogging but it's something we gotta invent something for that parents mogging you don't parental mogging um yeah so no but and the and the crazy thing about that is we probably saw them a handful of times from when we got married in 92 to when we escaped in 2005 we maybe saw them a handful of times yeah they lived in los angeles and we were about two and a half hours out of la but they were not allowed to know where we worked it was confidential yeah they're not you're not if you're a scientologist you're not allowed to know where the international headquarters are yeah even though if you google int base it shows up on the internet as that location that that fact that they were not allowed to know where i worked is the reason they were required to sign over guardianship of me when i was 16 so that i could go work there so who did they sign it over officially to to a woman named leonora adam who i had never even met she worked at the property they signed over guardianship of me to somebody that neither myself nor my mother had ever met oh man oh it's so hard to process that you're so deep in like your own mom believes like oh this this will work out yeah and that was another crazy thing is that her mom was in the c organization and left yeah and then got together with her her she she my mom escaped when i was um eight and left me behind all right wait wait all right so i kind of misunderstood that then because when you said you went to visit the parents and the mother and the stepfather your mother and stepfather they were lower than you in scientology meaning they're still in scientology but she had escaped the c work yes so but she ended up going back and staying in the fold as they say so she is still as of right now today a public scientist that lives in clearwater florida have you ever talked with her since the last time i talked to my mom was in june of 2011 so that was six years after i escaped my grandmother who was never in scientology was in the hospital dying and um and i went to go see my grandmother my grandmother was the only good part part of my childhood everything else was complete shit excuse my language but literally you're okay yeah the the i was in my mom my mom joined the c organization signed a billion-year contract as a when I was four years old so I grew up in the cadet organization which is Nazi youth meets Lord of the Flies meets orphanage those are the elements of the cadet organization especially in the UK at this time Stoneland's was the place where I was raised by children in the UK yeah yeah there if you type how do you not have a British accent I I worked really hard to lose it fun fact an American dictionary will teach you an American accent so there were words I couldn't pronounce right especially A's and R's like my name I'd say Claire and she's a mom Claire and I if you look at the pronunciation key in an American dictionary it tells you how to say things right well our way our way your way like she still she still says insulation which drives me crazy instead of insulation like six there are certain words that I yeah whenever she when we got married she had an English I did in 1992 to lose it I well he teased me I teased her now he wishes I would have kept it because she would say smock but the overriding thing that's kind of hot I mean smock and I would say I would say here's the thing I wanted an American accent people always ask me why and I say well you know Americans think the UK accent is cool conversely UK people at least me thought the American accent was cool so I wanted an American accent also being born in a cult I wanted to fit in that was kind of my my overriding chameleon approach to surviving life was to be able to fit in there it was right there yeah yeah she yeah that slipped all but yeah surviving yeah so every but when when when we first got married it was so hard her accent that she would be like oh it's in the bin and I would be like and I would say in the boot it's in the this I'd say what a butter cutlery every single time she would mispronounce something I would say what a butter cutlery and so then over the years mock became mark and and the best part is all my digital stuff grok all that all English accent women my voice yeah I'm like get me back to where I was before so is that you said what did you say that was called being a cadet cadet oh yeah is that I'm trying to remember because it's been a while was that the same thing Jenna was yeah yes CEO the cadet estates org so it's basically kids I was in the cadet org in the UK Jenna was in the cadet org in California okay yeah I'm gonna circle back to this in a minute I want to close the loop because I think we're gonna be doing two episodes I'm looking at the clock because we got to get to your story before we get to like both of your stories individually and how it happened kind of in a timeline you had said earlier Claire that you testified in the Danny Masterson trial as an expert witness yes so a lot of people out there are familiar with this Danny Masterson from the that 70s show famous actor was I think after multiple trials eventually convicted on multiple counts of rape a couple years ago and is now in prison for 30 or 35 years or something like that and it was controversial because he's involved with Scientology and all that when did you get involved with the trial was it one of the original trials that was mistrials or how did that all go yeah so there were two trials I was approached by the DA's office in California in let's see September 2022 okay and at and interviewed and asked to testify as an expert witness and of course I was like absolutely all my view is always that I will do whatever whatever I can in whatever capacity I can to expose the abusive practices of Scientology however so this was September of 2022 in the first trial the judge ruled that there was to be no testimony regarding Scientology so I didn't end up because of that ruling I did not testify in that first trial why did he rule that because they wanted to keep the judge wanted to keep the Scientology nonsense out of the case and just have it be about what happened so but during that during that trial the sec the first trial one of the lawyers for the defense for Danny's on Danny's team used Scientology book and referenced it in such a way that it basically brought it back into the case and so then once they did that when the second case happened the judge was like Oh Scientology is it's all everything's off now you can do talk about whatever you want Scientology but and there was another element though because by my understanding in the first case they the the defense was not arguing that the events took place they were simply they were using different lines of defense to try to get Danny Masterson off however approaching the second trial they indicated that they were going to argue that the events even ever happened which is where the judge then changed her mind because there are written reports that are part of the case that indicate that yes Scientology knew what happened at the time that they happened so when when the defense changed their strategy that's what opened that was at least a part of what opened up having to include Scientology in the case because they knew about it and were involved did no I forget did you know Danny Masterson from in Scientology I did but peripherally we shot a film with Danny when he was young when he was a little kid and the and it's I mean irony he plays in Scientology when you do the counseling you before you practice on a Guinness the guinea pig like me like Tom Cruise did you practice on a doll so you know yeah so like you have a big giant Raggedy Ann doll there and they put the cans in front of it and they ask all the questions to the doll so much so that the movie huh do you have security footage of Tom no no no not Tom Hanks Tom Cruise talking to a doll no no but the movie that he's talking about that Danny Masterson is in is called use of a doll in auditing and TRS that's the name of the movie yeah and in that movie Danny Masterson plays a doll that gets drunk all the time and abuses the other girl dolls by getting them all liquored up and having his way with him this is when he was like 12 or 13 when we shot this movie and he played a doll called Captain Jack and he was in a silver LeMay spacesuit and he was Captain Jack and then the other doll was called Goldie and he would and he would as a doll a beer bottle is like this big to him and he we had all these oversized bottles and he would get drunk by just sniffing the fumes in a beer because he's a doll because he's a tiny little doll and and he would get the other girl all liquored up too and then get up to nonsense what's this called Cosby no it's called the use of a doll in auditing in TRS anyway but the craziest thing was and I don't know I was I didn't see any of this but the rumor was that something happened with him and her not in the movie and then she might have been like victim zero oh my god so this was going on for I mean he was a like a young L.A. child actor yeah he's also in Scientology they also believe that overts are bad but overts come from misunderstood words misunderstood words yeah like if you don't understand a word that's when you start getting up the naughtiness and so there's dictionaries everywhere in Scientology well not the not the Merriam-Webster yeah no Merriam-Webster dictionary so they're using our own weapons against us well this against you this is the thing I don't know what they're saying when we when we were there and you're studying in the course room they have approved versions of different of different dictionaries and one of the ones that they used to so you wouldn't when you're looking up a word the worst case scenario is that you're trying to find out what a word means and then there's three or four other words in the definition that you don't know what they mean you're not allowed to go past a word you don't understand so you you could be it's called a word chain you could literally be looking up words for two weeks straight because every time you look up a word you find two more words that you don't know and you have to use them in sentences and you have to look up every single definition every single definition for one word could have 14 different meanings you have to learn each one of them and use them in sentences so you fully understand it and then when that's done in your own words use it in sentences until you can fully you can easily do so and then go on to the next definition and the next definition and the next definition and then you look up the derivation and then you uh also um do the same with any idiomatic usage of the word use the idiom in a sentence and you have to look do you say derivation i said you have to find it you know what the derivation is so somebody is like what is that word you like oh it means this what's the derivation it's fucking old greek bitch oh it's like it's basically like who's on first but that's a long story to tell you danny masterson was on the on the cover of the approved dictionary him and for it was a student dictionary it was him and a bunch of other kids on the cover and he was one of the kids not because he was in scientology because he was a child actor model whatever he went to the freaking webster student dictionary editions photo shoot and he's on the cover so when we got so but that but when we shot the movie with him i mean i was still i think by that time i was in my late teens when we when we shot that movie but um i am an actor in the movie and i come in as a seawork messenger in the film and i bust the real guy who's this oppressive and i get danny masterson out of trouble and he's allowed to continue being a training doll after that because the real bad guy was the guy that was in danny's in captain jack's ear about getting up to all this nonsense you weren't thinking of the symbolism of this at the time like this is kind of a little fucked up yeah no in retrospect in retrospect oh my god but at the time there's not like a moment where you're like wait a minute i didn't really know the story i only knew my one part and that i was and that that i was allowed to be in the movie reads whatever's on the prompter yeah yeah i had i literally had one page of dialogue i don't know what else happened but the crazy thing is is that later after that is when i began working in uh as a quality control for the manufacturing and i had to watch all those over and over and over again and i was in the goddamn films i'm in a bunch of the scientology training films that we did at the time they've redone them all because also jason begay was in a ton of those movies and so when he started and larry anderson and larry there's a lot of celebrities a lot of scientology celebrities that were in all these films oh now they got and when they leave they have to reshoot them all because you can't have show me a motherfucking clear in all the films that you're watching that was when he was smart yeah yeah jason he has like a little raspy voice that's how he talks anyway but um when we when we shot with danny for that movie he was like a he was a young teenager and and i don't think i'm pretty sure he never did another film with us after that um because he was on you know whatever the shows were that 70s show or and his brother christmas is it malcolm in the middle he plays he's in another show where he was uh an actor an actor too so um but that yeah the masterson kids and the there's a whole bunch of these hollywood erica christiansen um elizabeth moss the elfman's they're kind of all floating around when you're talking about cognitive dissonance uh what's the show that she did elizabeth moss mad oh oh handmaid's tale yeah same thing you're like you're doing a god you're playing a in a show about a cult that does a lot of crazy stuff you're in the cult that you're in also does that's kind of wild yeah so much so i have a whole note about all the the crazy parallels in the handmaid's tale that just just to document how much of how hypocritical it is of elizabeth moss to to be in that show and claiming that there are no parallels you know what other show is crazy when scientology sees it when scientologists see it severance oh my god i still haven't seen severance why why is it why is it crazy because when you in the in the show so you basically have some kind of surgery or something yeah so it's basically yeah the the premise of severance is that you get a a um a surgery in your brain like a capsule inserted that when you're at work you're one person when you leave from work you go back to your original personality and you have no memory of anything that they don't they each one doesn't know about they're completely separate people wow and in in the c org and scientology you they well in the show they have what's called the any that's the one inside the work and then you have your audi and your audi yes is the one that's the one that's the one that's outside doing whatever not at the not at the workplace in scientology you only get to be the any yeah and very rarely do you get to be the audi in severance is even an e-meter by the way they have it in the show yeah it's it is made to look a little different but they're doing auditing they're doing clay stuff with clay which is right out of scientology's playbook there are so many parallels and then the innies try to escape and anyway if you're if you were in the c organization in scientology and you see this show you're like okay i don't need to watch this that was my life right they have the bust of the creepy guy in the lobby they have that they have interrogations they have um uh memorizing um doctrine verbatim literally the parallels are endless it's it's it's a great point because i'm watching i'm like why do i need to see this this is like i i don't want to be reminded about all this craziness and and very similar to severance they're all up to busy work that seems uselessly unproductive and that's just how the c org is all these people are running around 18 16 hours a day doing all this work and it's not getting more people into scientology it feels like like from the outside looking in because again like we were just down there it's almost like when you're looking down at ants yeah just gotta they just keep moving then if someone steps on the ant farm over here these ants don't even know about it yeah like we're just gonna keep moving this little fucking leaf all together right to the spot on the mound and hope we don't get stepped on because we don't even know there's a bootstep on the neck and on to the next leaf well what was that like though being in in court and facing danny masterson and how long were you on the stand for uh two hours i think wow yeah two three hours did you ever make eye contact with him or what was that like i so i mean like i said i was i was absolutely committed to doing the right thing you can ask mark though i was falling apart it was terrifying going back into it felt like going back into the belly of the beast not being going to la where they have a a significant presence but also knowing that you know they were would have done anything to make me fail and oh here's here's the crazy part so in february of um 2023 is when the da's office called me and said okay the judge has now ruled and you will testify and then she said but there's something you need to know um scientology has called has named someone to counter your expert witness testimony that they just disclosed today and that's your stepdad i knew it was coming oh my god and then they never ended up calling him as a witness but it's so it's just the level they're trying to get in my head so yeah it was um anyway i i put together a 30-page report of all the policies they have that make it um against their rules and policies to report to authorities to involve any law enforcement all on and on and on there were very specific points that were outlined that those were what i was to testify on to explain the delay in reporting to explain the policies and the terminology and language of scientology um but yeah i mean it was a huge pressure um because there are so many the the layering language policies of scientology make it so complicated that it's really easy to get lost in the in in the weeds and language and understanding how things work and like we could mark and i could have a conversation right now and you would literally have not one idea of anything we just said that's i believe it yeah you can and also the abbreviation so you could be like hey i would like to have a conversation with you about this and i'm like okay i went over to asho to get the bmo tc and ip and i'm doing this and i'm gonna you're just like the fuck wait what so so the pressure of of having to just really keep things super straightforward and specific and on point to educate a jury of 12 people that have probably that have no idea of what any of it means um it was it was a lot did you get any did you get any weird phone calls or reach outs or anything like that we've time period we have it's been going on for so long probably i want to say since 2005 yeah when we after we escaped as soon as they declared us a suppressive person which was the day after i escaped by the way yeah i left two weeks before she did but when the day after three weeks three weeks the day after she left we both have the same date suppressive person to declare issues but we've have we have um scientology has multiple hate websites about us oh yeah who is mark all the people.com the stanley all most of our family members have done hate videos yeah against us so my mom my stepdad my email has been given to so many things that i get spam from we gotta get you a new email yeah no um i don't want to start over we've had private investigators following us in the in the documents that mark was talking about in the osso spy files documents it shows that they were um they had our phones tapped yeah they were stealing our trash and going through our trash they were um setting up phones tapped yeah the private investigators well the scientology they had a list of all of the calls that we had made including what was discussed what was discussed and and who we spoke to it's totally illegal if it's not a law enforcement sure sure like there's nothing if you get caught yep and this is the crazy and here's the crazy thing so when you talk about when they had this guardian's office and they had all these agents there was hundreds and thousands of scientologists all over that were one was doing this little thing and one was doing this little thing well you have a scientologist that works at verizon you find out about that and now hey we got we got our guy at verizon so that means we got at&t we got sprint we got verizon the amount of times we've gotten letters saying as you requested we sent your phone records yeah and we're like we didn't request that it's gotten to the point now where we have not only do we you know change our passwords every 90 days but we also add security codes like that's nothing related to any of our information just random digits that makes it almost oh i won't i won't believe me we one two three four one one one one one no but while we were 69 69 it's gonna be my next one did you know what that was in scientology no no you it's oh you got to learn all that afterwards well that so this is a crazy thing because in scientology where we worked you notice how often we say oh here's where it gets crazy yeah yeah like like like it's not all crazy what is this 69 yeah you want me to do what at that property at that property there's no internet no so when the internet i want to say like in the late 90s 1999 2000 it was like we're gonna let a few co members get on the internet for research purposes and i was i was over the pre-production department i was over the pre-production department of the cinematography division and it was it was ridiculous that we were sending people to the library to go through books to find things for the films and do research and it was like and i was pushing like hey we have to get on the internet this is ridiculous so they have a setup there where the internet is goes through a filter so if you type anything body thetans lord zenu even the word scientology or david miscavige anything that there's bad stuff on the internet corn hub.com well no it's all no any any variation of any search that's bad about scientology or that's x-rated you cannot get to from that property so and it will flag it and it'll flag it if you type it in you'll get it'll show on your search history that you're getting access denies and then and there's two people that were over the internet for that property one of them is a guy who's a scientist and he's a scientist and he's a one guy was in rtc religious technology center where dave miscavige works and one guy was in golden air productions he was a security guard at golden air productions and they were sort of the monitors of the filter and it came out and actually i the only reason i even heard about it was in a meeting with david miscavige the guy in rtc warren mcscavige warren mcshane warren mcshane why did i say warren mcshavage um warren mcshane and this guy the security guard they were both seeing each other's access denied and they were going on all the porn sites they weren't going to say they're walking and they're just beating off but they were both they both could see the access denies for them and when a little secret and david miscavige in a meeting that warren mcshane was in he said oh where's warren and and it was like oh he's probably he's probably looking at porn and we were all like what's going on and he was like oh he's probably looking at we're all like the fuck yeah warren's a porn monkey circling he's gearing up an r he's gearing up an rtc that's some bullshit he's supposed to be watching for that oh my god yeah so the people in charge of it are doing yeah but the craziest thing is that that property is filled with foreign nationals so you get swedes danes germans people from spain italy everything well the filter don't know what titties is in italian so these guys that had internet access they're just searching in their native language for this stuff and the filter's like i don't know anyway but yeah there's no way for someone there i want to say in the early 2000s when i when i was able to get on the internet and do research and and do this sort of thing i was probably one of maybe 10 out of 10 people that were able to get on the internet wow yeah so they don't have in the c-org it's very limited and then even in recent years they've been giving c-org members are not allowed to have iphones but they're allowed to have android because you can't put a filter like their filter that they use that not only blocks you from going to the site but then also reports to somewhere that what sites you're going to apple's like we ain't that ain't going to be in the app store but google on the android phones hey baby we got all the filters and all the crazy stuff you need cia created google yes so means well the cia create scientology there's a ton of people that think that the fbi and the cia to this day control scientology there's a lot of people that think that and i gotta go to the bathroom so we're going to talk about them afterwards if that's cool so this is good for me this is the end of the first episode we're going to do a second episode right after this has been awesome guys but in this one we're going to get into that and then we're going to really get into your stories like from the beginning and like childhood and some of it we've covered a little bit but i really want to get an idea of like how it developed over time sounds good all right subscribe if you haven't subscribed and we'll see you for the next episode awesome hey guys if you're not following me on spotify please hit that follow button and leave a five our review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you.