Ex-Scientologists EXPOSE Tom Cruise, Blackmail & Spy Wing | The Headleys

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Plus, most insured members have a zero dollar copay. I've talked a lot in the past about how therapy has helped me out during really difficult times in my life, and I'm sure like many of you I've also had a lot of friends who dealt with some serious issues and were lucky enough to have therapists there to help them out. It's great to have a resource like Talkspace that can connect you with someone who can help. As a listener of my podcast, you're going to be able to get $80 off your first month of Talkspace. When you go to Talkspace.com, that link is in my description below and use promo code SPACE80. That's S-P-A-C-E-A-Zero. To match with the licensed therapist today, go to Talkspace.com, link in my description below, and enter promo code SPACE80. All right, we're finally here. Thanks so much for coming, guys. Yeah, sorry, I couldn't get here any earlier. I've just been all over the United States for the last six months. What have you been doing? We built a space camp in Alabama, a space camp, like an astronaut camp. I built the astronaut camps all over the United States, and also museums and visitor centers. So we just finished Red Rocks, Pike's Peak, Space Camps. We're doing this Bruce Springsteam Museum and Mama. So, Mark does all the fun stuff. Where did you learn to do this? At the crazy place. Really. You learn all about space at Scientology. Don't be given advertised with them now. I probably spent $10 million of their money on doing audio-visual systems all over. I was in charge of all their audio-visual systems worldwide. I got you. They didn't teach them. They didn't teach me. I learned it there. I just happened to be a young kind of electronics person there. And I was like, we were using 16, they were using 16-millimeter projectors and all of the organizations in the 2000s. In the 2000s. Sixty-millimeter projectors. That's a real throwback. It's so strange. Whenever I get to talk with some of you guys who were able to leave and now like you're out in the normal world doing your thing and you've adjusted and are doing well with it, because I can't even imagine and we're going to get through your whole story today obviously. But I can't even imagine being literally like it's almost in between when TV was in gray and when it was in color. Oh, 100%. You just go from one side to the other. People will ask us to say, oh, you remember on Seinfeld? They'll be like, I've never seen it. They go like, what about friends? You're like, no, I go, I had a blackout from 1990 to 2005 where I never watched a single TV show and that entire 15 years because we weren't allowed to watch TV. So it's sort of like, so many missing, like it's like a black hole of media, cultural references, media, films. People will go, what about Simpsons? No, never seen it. Wow. South Park never seen it. You know, then once we got out, we probably watched, we probably consumed six hours of media every single night. Yeah, it was right in the early days of Netflix when they would they would literally send you DVDs of movies in the mail. Oh my, those days. Yes, they had nine, get a nine DVD account. So we were all, we had three movies on top. Just to catch up because you would see if you were driving around, you'd see the billboard for the moon. Oh, yeah. Hey, guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge, true chill. Thank you. But you're like, well, we don't get the guy in the movies. That also helped with the adjustment because when you work like easily 16 to 24 hours a day for 15 years, when you get out into the real world, and you're, you know, nine to five job, you're like, what do we do with the rest of the day now? Yeah, what do I do with myself after, after dinner? They teach you, they teach a great discipline over there. Oh, yeah, no, give you that. No, there's no, no lack of work ethic. You're coming out, you see these people complain about, oh yeah, into five. You're like, what are you? Pussy? Like, people, when I was working, I was working at a post-production studio and I was managing a whole bunch of visual effects artists, and they had to get one or two shots done a day. And all these guys, they're on Amazon, they're on Facebook, you know, and I'm like, if you would just work during the fucking day, you'd be a rock star. There's people out there right now like, man, maybe I need side-talk. My favorite though was when he was at that post-production company, he got, his boss was like, hey man, so how do you handle stress? Yeah. We're like, I'm pretty good. I can, he's like, we might have some executives from some of the channels coming in here to oversee stuff and kind of looking over your shoulder. I'll be like, no problem. I'm good, dude. I had a crazy short 4/13 guy yelling at me while I was working, so I'll be fine with this. Now both of you grew up in Scientology, right? Is that fair to say? Yeah. So she was born into it, and my mom got into it when I was six. Okay, so let's start there if you don't mind, Claire. Sure. You were born into it, so you're both your parents were in Scientology, both the setup. Yes. So I was born in England, Manchester, England. My mom got pregnant with me when she was 17. She was raised Roman Catholic, and so hippie 70s rebelled against her Roman Catholic upbringing, and her older brother got her into Scientology. And so my mom and dad were both in Scientology when I was born. I tell people this because it's just a whatever I was named after the state of clear. You can't make that shit up. Wait, they actually named you after the state of clear. Mm-hmm. It just changed the A. Yeah. We'll Claire being French for clear. That's how my mom explained it to me. I was like, great, thanks. Anyhow, Claire does sound better. Yeah. Yeah, thank God. Thank God they didn't call me clear, literally, like, anyway. So my mom and dad were both staff at Manchester org when I was born. By the time I was two, my dad decided he wanted nothing more to do with Scientology, and so by the time I was three, they divorced, and that was my first experience with Scientology's practice of disconnection at three years old. My dad was just poof gone. Do you remember that at all? Oh, 100%. One of my earliest life memories is remembering that departure and thinking it was my fault. He thought it was your fault. Mm-hmm. What did your mom say to you about like, how was it explained to you? Because you don't, I would imagine and correct me if I'm wrong here. When you're three years old, you still don't understand like the definition of the religion or in at all. Completely, no. Yeah. I mean, that's that's the shitty part about being born into something like this is there's no before. You know, if you in cult recovery books and all that, there's always reference to the pre-cult personality, the problem being when you're born into it, you don't know anything else. You have no other frame of reference. So yeah, I was three and I definitely remember, like I said, thinking it was my fault, but the way my mom explained it to me, I just shut down, stop talking. So of course, what does she do? She takes me into the Scientology organization so that they can give me our factor, reality factor, and explain to me that my dad is an evil person and it's not my fault, but he's gone now. Two or three year old and our factor. Yeah. And it sounds like you remember that pretty well too. Yeah. You know, it is so hard to put myself, I was really lucky, like I did great childhood, I wasn't born into Scientology or anything like that, no fun stuff. None taken, I believe me. Both my parents were together and all that and like you just kind of got to do the regular kid thing, but the idea of having like, you're almost made this vessel from the second you can have any memory of anything and they imprint your brain with this software. And they say, this is how the world is and you don't ever get a chance to see an environment like I might have seen or like, deep might have seen and your earliest memories are like, oh, this must be normal. My dad's evil because he left and they're going to brainwash or you're not thinking that way, but they're going to program me to make sure I don't do that. Exactly. Yeah. And if you and also to me, the semantics, the language of Scientology is a huge piece of the way they control and leverage you. So if you consider that as a three-year-old, I was learning the language of Scientology before I even understood the English language. Would you mind explaining that a little bit? Yeah, of course. So in Scientology, the language does a lot of the work of keeping you in. So for example, if you have a critical thought, you're trained to believe that that's because you've done something bad. The only reason somebody ever leave Scientology is because they've committed crimes, transgressions. And there's just layer upon layer upon layer of language that is unique to Scientology. So as a starting at three, I'm learning the language of Scientology before I even understand the English language. Right. So now I get it. You're saying like something like a transgression, you understand what that means without understanding what that might mean in the context of the English language who are using it for another totally. They have, they call those overtz, overtz, overtz and withholds. So an overt is something that you did to somebody. And a withhold is something that you did that nobody knows about. You've, you've, withheld it. A thought crime. Yeah. Yes. And then there's a mist withhold too. So like, if I steal your coffee and then you come by and you go, Hey, have you seen my coffee? That's a mist withhold. I haven't seen it. So you almost found out that I took your coffee, but you didn't. So that's, but they didn't find out, but they have thousands, they have thousands and thousands of things like this that when you're a kid, you go to a Scientology school, you're going to do going to the Scientology Center at night to do courses after school. So you're always learning about all these things. One of the things that's kind of wild is you, you would never think that you would have had a mist withhold. But if, but if I explained to you what a mist withhold is and, and Elron Hubbard says, when you have a mist withhold, you display these kind of physical characteristics or these, the way you talk and the way you do things, you do it a certain way if somebody's missed your withhold. So then because you now know this, when that happens, you do it. Oh my God. So it's a crazy thing that if you didn't know that that's what happens, you wouldn't do anything, but because you know, oh, I did this. So now this is going to happen. So now I have to commit more overt against this person. And it's like, it's a, it's a wild thing that they train you how to be a Scientologist. And because you do that, it's easier to manage you and, and kind of manipulate you into thinking or doing certain things because you now are kind of playing the game. As long as if you don't play the game, they have no control over you. They give you the deck of cards. You build the house. That's kind of, when you, it's funny, you use the word play in the game because while you're talking, now I was thinking like they're, it's gamification of everything you do. 100%. It's almost like, okay, in order for me to get to the next video game level, I'm going to need to make sure I have three lives. And therefore I need to have these five thoughts that equals seven. What are we doing? It's exactly like that. And, and, and it sort of progress that, that level of game and ship, if you're just a member and you're just doing training on Scientology courses, or you're learning how to do the counseling, what they call auditing. Yeah. If you're just doing that as a paying member, that's, that's level one. Then if you become a staff member, an employee of an organization, that's like level two. And then the final boss is the seawork. And if you're in the seawork, those are the guys that signed the billion year contracts. Depending on where you are in the seawork, that's sort of the beginning. So like, if you were here in New York, they have a continental liaison office here in New York City, right near Times Square. I love the names. Oh yeah, abbreviations and everything. Hubbard stole a lot. I would say 90% of the organizational structure from the military, because he used to be in the military. So he borrowed a lot of those things. But if you were here or or stole the uniforms in language. Yeah. We call now the lead guy's names, Dave. So we call it Davey's fake Navy. Hi Dave. Over the years, a lot of my friends who use nicotine products have reported having a harder time in the gym and not getting the results they were looking for, whether it's not getting a great pomb worse recovery time crashing during their workouts or even catching their heart racing out of nowhere. I've heard about the same consistent issues like this for years. A lot of people use nicotine as a pre workout thinking it's going to make their pump better. The reality is actually the complete opposite though. nicotine is detrimental to your workouts because it's a vasoconstrictor. 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And ultra pouches also come in five insanely good flavors, so you got plenty of selection to choose from. Ultra is the ultimate guilt-free pouch, delivering instant focus and mental clarity without nicotine or caffeine. New customers can use code julian today to get 15% off at take ultra dot com. That link is in my description below. That's take ultra dot com link in my description below using code julian to get 15% off. After you purchase, they're going to ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them I sent you. But if you're in the continental liaison office in New York, that's sort of the outskirts of the seorgbases. And then if you go to Florida or if you go to Los Angeles, that's where they start to have higher level management seorgb organizations. And then as high as you can go, is where we worked. And that's the international base or the int base or the gold base in Gilman Holtzbrings, California. So you're like a 33rd street Mason. It's it's that level when you get there, you have to get interrogations. And sometimes these interrogations could take a year to make sure that you are in no way possible. A security risk or a threat to Scientology. And then that's how you get to work at the headquarters. And if you work at the headquarters, that's behind the curtain. You see Oz and everything that goes on when you're at that property. So so there's a lot of people that get out like Chris Shelton or different people that were in the sea organization. And then they speak about their experiences. Well, they have those experiences, but at one of these local or the Los Angeles management or a clear water. And when you get to the international headquarters, David Misgavage, who's the current final boss of Scientology. Right. He all 411. He 413. He's 413. Yeah. I like that better than 51. Um, he micromanaged every single possible thing that got done at that property down to in the dining hall that at the urinals, he was pissed that there was piss on the tiles under the urinals. And so he ordered the cleaning guy, hey, can you get some black mats to put under there? So when the piss hits the mat, we don't have to see it. It just blends into the mat. That's cleanliness. But but that down to that level. This is the head of this cult, international cult. And he's also the piss mat guy. So he'd hate me in the middle of that. I don't know where it's going. Yeah, damn. Yeah, it's funny. I was just down visiting deep and I were both down visiting my buddy, Danny Jones, who's grew up in clear water, not in Scientology at all. But he when when we were like walking around downtown clear water near where studio was just going to the store and stuff every time we're walking. It's almost like sinister. You can like we have freedom tower here. It's cool. Yeah. There it is. I'm in low die. I can see freedom tower. I'm in Bayon. I can see freedom tower amount of nutley. I'm in New York. I see freedom tower. In clear water, it's like, whoa, there it is. Like you see right on the line. They're a little shy of the bay. Yeah. With big old Scientology building that looks like a weird kind of fucked up castle from a B list or D list movie. And then it's got like the little cross on the top left. And every time you're walking, you feel like you're in the it's hard to explain, but you're like, you feel like you're you're in the middle of dystopia. You really do completely. And the cameras everywhere. We did a tour through there for like a fundraiser for the aftermath foundation and went through each, you know, building and it was like 50 people, but everywhere there's cameras. You could see them. They were trained on us. They're following us everywhere. It is dystopian. Yeah. At aftermath. Is that Leo Reminius? So there was a show Scientol, a Leo Remini Scientology in the aftermath. Yeah. After that show became very popular. People started reaching out like, hey, what I want to help you guys? What can we do? And so we created the aftermath foundation. And we help people who are trying to escape from the sea organization or Scientology. And that's been running now for it was started in December 2017. So it's been around a while now and it's grown to where we have now education grants, online support group help with emergency housing expenses when people are just getting out. We have a crisis line. We have billboards up in LA that say need help leaving Scientology all around the buildings there. You guys are like the underground railroad. We really are. When we left in 2005, I would say almost immediately, we started running into people or people started reaching out to us like, hey, I'm here. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to, and it's like, okay, do this. Let's get you a job here. We were doing it from, I'd say, 2006 on. We were sort of helping people who either worked where we worked or worked at one of the other sea organization bases. Mainly it was sea org members at first because in my case, I got into it when I was six. I went to Scientology schools until I was 14, and then I joined the sea org like I think right before my 15th birthday, right around my 15th birthday, I signed up and built. They have people, they, at that time they were, they had kids as young as 12 in the sea organization. So you have 12 year olds working from eight o'clock in the morning till midnight every day, seven days a week. You get, on Sundays you get three hours off maybe in the morning to do your laundry and, you know, shit shower and shave, and then that's it, that you're, you work full time. There's no, there's no like vacations in the sea organization for 12 year olds, for anybody, for anybody. Yeah. As low as that. This is where I always ask this question when something like this that is overtly crazy is brought up. Yeah. How is this legal? This shouldn't be. Well, because they have this religious cloaking. So because they are a religion, that's part of their doctrine or that's part of the teachings that you do that you work as much as you can, and there's the sea organization. The sea organization is like the fraternal order in Scientology. So these are the people who have dedicated their lives to Scientology. So they, they don't need possessions, they don't need any, they don't need a car or a house or all this other stuff. And so you're every, every part of you is dedicated to expanding Scientology. But, but another piece to answer the question on why, why are they getting away with this? These are kids that were born into Scientology. So their parents are fully in support of it. And even sometimes force them to do it or push them to do it. Like that's the best thing they could possibly do to a parent in Scientology. And that's, that is also a huge piece of how they get away with it. If you want to raise up the status levels in Scientology, you either need to become a highly trained counselor in Scientology, do a lot of the counseling yourself. So that's where you go through these operating Thayton levels, or you donate a lot of money. If you don't have those things, there's one other thing you can donate. And that's your kids. So there are people that will use the fact that both of their children or all of their children or their only child is in the sea organization as a badge of honor in the, in the social structure of Scientology, because that basically shows, yeah, you, you're, you're committed because you just gave your kid to there. Here's what I don't understand though. If I, if I'm a Catholic and I make my kid be an altar boy and Father Tom starts messing around with my kid, the prosecutors come after Father Tom as they should. Yeah, but, but who, but who's going to tell on Pastor Tom? So if you're in Scientology, this is another wild thing in Scientology. They have, they have different levels of, of what they call ethics and justice in Scientology. So they have misdemeanors and then they have cron, what is considered crimes and then they have what are considered high crimes. And then some of those things, but not all of them, are also then categorized as suppressive acts. If you go to the authorities in Scientology, it's written in their ethics and justice manual that that is a crime, at least a crime in it, depending on how, how much you expose Scientology to the government or local officials or the police or whatever, it could be, be classified as a high crime or a suppressive act. If you commit a suppressive act in Scientology and become a declared suppressive person, which we are, as we both are, yes, I know, we were that as a badge of honor. I'm going to get a shirt that says that, yes. If you are a suppressive person, you are not allowed to speak with any of your family that are in Scientology or friends or business associates. So if you're a child and you escape, so when we left the sea organization, before we could even talk to our family that was still in Scientology or she could contact her, brothers and sisters or her parents in Scientology, they already issued a suppressive person to clear on us, forbidding any of our families to ever speak to us again. So. And then they gave us a free load of bills. So factor in, for 15 years, we were making $46 a week if we were paid at all. And so then we escape and start our lives over. And the only way we'd ever be able to speak to our family ever again is if we did A to E steps, that's what it's called and basically went back into Scientology. But those steps would have included having to pay our free loader bills, which cumulative between the two of us was $150,000. So any courses or any counseling that you got when you were in the sea arc, so that's another thing. If you're a staff member in Scientology or if you're just a paying member, then when you do courses, you pay. If you want to do the purification rundown, sit in the sauna and sweat all day, that's $5,000. And then if you want to do this operating thing level, that could be up to, to get up to OT3 could be a few hundred thousand dollars. If you're in the sea or that you don't pay anything, but then the catch 22 is you're working, you know, more than, I would say 16 hours a day is sort of like the minimum amount you'd work in the sea organization. If you're working six years, you're not doing Scientology courses and auditing and stuff. But they do have mandatory courses that sea org members have to do. And so the mandatory on the job training that we had to do, they build us for that when we left saying, Hey, you got all that for free. If you want to talk to your mom and dad again, the first step is you got to say, Yeah, I'm a criminal. And here's 150 KIOU. And then at that point, they may or may not let you speak to your family again. When you finish all those steps to get back into Scientology. Yeah, another, another one of those steps is you have to redo all the training you ever did in Scientology, which you also have to pay for again. It's basically siloed so that any, and this is kind of, this is maybe the most villainous thing about Scientology, but it's also the thing that they're, they're getting screwed on right now is that when someone finds out, Oh, they're doing this or they're doing that. This is crazy. I don't want to have any part of this. Leave Scientology is okay, you can never speak to any of your family that are in Scientology because they don't want those guys to find out what's going on at the international headquarters. But then because Hubbard wrote all this in the 50's and the 60's and the 70's, there was no internet. So now that the internet exists when someone leaves, they can come on a podcast. They could put up something on Facebook, they could do whatever they want. And Scientology has little or no control over how that information is disseminated and who it gets to. And so we have a small YouTube channel and I would say likely 50% of the views that we get on our channel are from Scientologists that are still in Scientology because they, that's the other thing. You're not allowed to speak with another Scientologist derogatory about Scientology, but you can watch a YouTube video, but you can watch a YouTube video and not subscribe. Thank you very much because they think Scientology is going to figure out, well, I don't want them getting caught. Yeah. Yeah. This is the first time in a history of YouTube. I'll say, don't subscribe. Yeah. Well, so what happens is we've had people that have reached out to us that they would have like a burner iPad to watch videos on because if they use their regular YouTube or whatever, if they start watching those things, their algorithm, it's going to serve up these things. So if they're in the living room and they're, their wife or their husband or their daughter or the son goes on there and say, hey, there's freaking suppressive people on your, in your feed. Yeah. Well, funnily enough, in 2023, Danny Masterson trial was ongoing. And during that time, Scientology was was paying for ads on YouTube. So, you know, like trying to quash exposés of their true nature. but that also had the effect of actually promoting our videos to the Scientologists. - They basically were paying so much on Google ads that they hijacked the algorithm and our stuff were going to people more because they're paying for it. So even our content had Scientology ads in it, because of they were just like, we gotta get everybody wants to know what's going on with Scientology because there was a lot of people going to the web, going Danny Masterson Scientology. - Yeah, so back to your point though, about the Catholic comparison, what Mark was explaining on how their policies work was a huge piece of my testimony as an expert witness in the Danny Masterson trial was to explain how Scientology controls its members and prevents them from contacting authorities reporting to police any outside involvement is strictly forbidden by the policies of the organization. - Well, do you mind if we dig into that for a second? - Well, I will tangent on that. - Totally, I was just gonna say, there is another level to that in that instance where if you have somebody in LA and they, something happens at the Scientology Center or Danny Masterson does something that's untoward towards that person, when they go to the police, Scientology has somebody there. 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After you purchase, they're gonna ask you where you heard about them. - And so then that's not an uncommon thing in Hollywood because you've got studios and you've got these big conglomerates that are trying to keep their actors and talent under control. And I think there was something that even came up with the exact same division of the LA PD in regards to the guy that was running CB less Moonves. So when nonsense would get up, they had somebody like, "Oh, hey, "we gotta get a call in to sort this out." So they play the game in Hollywood big time in terms of how people are getting, "Yeah, there you go." Captain Holi-Polka, so that's the guy. - Kori Polka, LA, former LA PD, Captain allegedly leaked confidential 2017 sexual sold investigation details to former CBS CEO less Moonves to help cover up accusations. Polka, who worked Moonves' Grammy security detail, tipped off CBS about the complaint leading to a $30.59 settlement and a fine for Moonves. - Yeah, so Captain Hollywood, Kori Polka, there's documents, we have a, on our YouTube channel, we got a treasure trove of Scientology's Spy Wings Files. - Spy Wings? - Yeah, Spy Wings, the Office of Special Affairs. And this is their sort of like their dirty tricks. The Office of Special Affairs, this is crazy. The Office of Special Affairs used to be called the Guardian's Office. - And Ellen Hubbard was the Guardian. - Oh, you didn't come up with it? - So it changed from what he came up with? - Well, I'll tell you why. - Yeah. - So the Guardian's Office is responsible for the largest infiltration in the United States government in its history. They had Scientology agents in all levels of the United States government. And their purpose was to call all the government files to remove anything bad about Scientology and replace it with pro Scientology documentation. - How did he get these people in there? And how did he get these people who obviously have some intelligence to be able to do, no pun intended to be able to do the things they're doing? To be like, you know, this guy who's written fucking 400 shit books, he's definitely, he's onto something. - Well, in that time period, there was, there was basically, there was this, we could die any moment type of thing with all of the wars that are going on. This is 1950s, when Hubbard came up with dionetics and kind of morphed into Scientology during the early 1950s. - The nuclear crisis. - And yeah, so it was always like, hey, the atomic bomb could be dropped any day. If we don't do something and we don't figure this out, we're, we're donors, we're goners. So he sort of kind of used that as a, this is a new way we could do things. And then Hubbard was a trained hypnotist. He was into black magic and the occult. He made like a potpourri of fucking culty shit. - Yeah, he poached from so many people on literally all the best ways to control and manipulate people and concocted it into the nightmare that is Scientology. - And that's the other thing. - He spent 40, well, 180, 86. So he spent 36 years perfecting that and tweaking it. And okay, when people leave, we got to declare him a suppressive person 'cause then they kind of poison the rest of that area. So we got to cut them off, we got to do this, we got to do that. But in those files from the office of special affairs, there's details of all of the stuff that's going on in Hollywood. Tom Cruise not doing interviews with certain networks that are running anti-scientology programs or exposés. So they had a thing with Anderson Cooper at CNN, hey, if you want David Misgavage to come on and you to be able to interview him or Tom Cruise, which both of them would be a huge get for Anderson Cooper. If you run this story that's being worked on that talks about Scientology, that's done. You're not getting that interview. And they did the same thing with NBC. And the story, by the way, it was Scientology, a history of violence. That was the Anderson Cooper show. He Anderson Cooper did end up doing the show regardless of whatever threats. Oh, good for them. And but either way, they do the same thing with CBS and NBC and Fox. And so they play this little game because you know Tom Cruise is going to come, is going to have a movie coming out this year or next year or whatever. And you're going to get eyes on your channel if he's on the this show or the that show. And so it's like, if you want that, then you've got to not do this over here. And they play, they play the long game on that one. They'll string somebody along for 10 years. And then finally, I think what happened with Anderson Cooper, he's like, screw these guys. They're never, this is never going to happen. They're just holding it over us so that we don't do this other nonsense. But there's talk, there's things in there about Larry King's best friend was also Tom Cruise's lawyer. And so it was a gentleman named Bert Fields. So Bert Fields is kind of playing the game with Larry like, Hey, I talked to Tom and he might be willing to come on your show or duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. But you guys got to not do this thing that you were going to do on Scientology. So it's, it's, I mean, even in our, we had a lawsuit where we filed against Scientology for, like, not being paid. - Humant labor law violations, human trafficking, forced abortion, yeah, multiple. - And in that case, the lawyer for David Miscavige's organization which is called Religious Technology Center, that's the, they manage everything in Scientology. The lawyer, their chief lawyer, after the case was done and we lost on appeal and all these, the different things happened. Scientology's lawyer became a California Supreme Court judge. Mark Marmerow, he became a California. - Will this guy have any attention? - He's the guy that did our depositions. - In that case, yeah. And so you just, it's, it's, it's wild that they've got people in all these different places where they need them. And that was sort of the, the guardian's office. Mark. There you go. Yeah, that's him. Yeah. And by the way, on the lawsuit, at the time, there was an FBI investigation going on that Mark and I were both literally confidential informants for. And so our lawyers decided to whittle down our causes of action and put basically focus on human trafficking charges. And in the end, during the appeal and everything else, they said, well, you can't prove human trafficking because we were, even though we were in Scientology as teenagers, we consented allegedly. But the judge said in the final ruling that had we pursued other causes of action, such as assault, assault, battery, false imprisonment, things like that, we may have fared differently. And there was another case that was going on at the same time where they did do that. And Scientology ended up writing those guys a check. So it's sort of they, and now they've got this situation where anyone who sued Scientology, they have this system that says, well, listen, we're a religion. So the courts can't get involved with anything that we're doing. But what we do have is we have our own ethics and justice manuals. And we'll do, we can work out an arbitration. And so the courts are quick to say, oh, great, perfect. So here's this case, it's remanded to arbitration with Scientology. Yeah, it's not. So no, but it's not. There's no, no, literally, the judge, this is an elaborate kangaroo court that Scientology has now set up in recent years after we escaped and after our lawsuit to where if someone brings a lawsuit to the judge, then the judge will say, no, no, you need to go back to your abuser and go through their arbitration process. Like Valerie Haney is one of these people that's currently going through arbitration. She literally had to escape in the trunk of a car from the headquarters where we worked. And now she's been sent back to her abuser for arbitration. It's the biggest joke. How do they get away with it? Well, what they do is all of the early enrollment forms in Scientology, you're signing a contract to be in Scientology. Yeah, but if you're 12, how can you consent? If you're 15, how can you consent? Because it's your religion and we can't, and as the court, we can't say that you can't, they're basically the way Scientology spins it is it's, it's your right to not have to be messed with by the outside world if you're in Scientology. And we can't violate your rights. So even if you're a victim, hey, that's, it's not illegal to do something really fucking stupid. So there's no, we got nothing we can do for you. You signed up for it and you signed every time you do a course or every time you start some training somewhere or some counseling somewhere, you're signing it something. And at the bottom of that, it says, if shit goes sideways, you're going to, you agree to do arbitration. You're not suing us. This is also the other problem too when it comes to the rest of society. And you know, it's not like everyone sits and listens to a podcast where we talk about Scientology. And I learn about, I didn't ever known that much about Scientology if going clear hadn't come out. Yeah. And stuff like that. So when you see a Scientologist, an active Scientologist, I don't know, walk into a courtroom or something like that. They look horrible. They were in normal clothes, maybe from Joseph Bay Bank or somewhere else that looks like Joseph Bay Bank, whatever. And you know, they look like regular Joe from society, whereas if it was, this is an extreme example, but you think like cult mindset and just like pure where it is. Let's say you're like an uncontacted tribe somewhere. If they walk in, you're like, okay, well, you're from a different planet. Yeah. We are obviously. Point being you get to, as a Scientologist, you get to blend in when they need you to blend in, but your entire life is what we talked about at the beginning where you're on the gray side of TV. And everyone else is on in color. But they, they almost like, why are you up to be able to be like, all right, we're going to turn you on right now. Go out there, put on a show, come right back in two hours. And you do, and people do it. Yeah. And in Scientology, you sort of learn that your better than everyone else, better, better. You're, you're, everyone else around you are homo sapiens, your homo novice. You're another level above everybody else. And people not in Scientology, Hubbard had a word for that. It's Wogg, which is actually come to find out a racial slur. Yeah. We actually, by the way, we have to believe that because it gets videos demonetized on YouTube. Oh, I swear to God. And I think I want to say in England and Australia, that's like racial slur. Yeah, that's like the end. But Hubbard defines it as standing for wealthy, oriental gentleman. And it just means somebody who, I thought it was more, I thought it was verbally oriented. There's two different versions of oriental, worldly oriented. Anyway, but, but they teach you that Scientology are the only people who have the answers in the universe, not on this planet, in the universe, to be able to do things so that we can succeed as a society. And so, Hubbard also calls somebody just getting into Scientology raw meat. And they need to, you have to find their ruin, which is what Scientology Recruit techniques are based on is literally finding the person's ruin and then presenting like, oh, Scientology has the answers to that. Yeah, I like to say like, if you have a problem with relationships and you end up doing a stress test in Times Square, or you read some kind of pamphlet on Scientology, and they say, you know, we can help you with relationships. You go in there and they go, yeah, yeah, we've got a course on that. It's a $50 course. You come in, you do it in a day or two. And you do that course. Well, when you're done with that course, you're thinking, I think I might be, I might be on the right track here with getting my relationship sorted out. But as soon as you do that, they go like, hey, you should do the purification rundown because you have drugs in your body and there's residues and they can kind of kick in whenever and you go, yeah, I'll do that. Oh, that's $2,000 or $5,000. And then 30 years later, you've given Scientology $5 million and you just went through your third divorce. And you only showed up there to sort out the relationships. But when you, every course you do in Scientology, you find 10 more problems. You didn't even know you had because they're, they're basically, they're laying out the path for you so that you're the one that's like, oh, I got to do the next thing or I got to do this or I still got to sort out my relationships. And until I get to the, they'll say like, well, you know, you're, some of these things are going to be addressed on the operating Thayton levels. So now you've got this, your eye on the prize. Okay, now I got to get through all this lower stuff so that I can get to the higher levels of Scientology. And the, the, the path in Scientology is charted out. It's called the bridge to total freedom. And it has the counseling side of Scientology and then it has the training on how to do the counseling in Scientology. You just got to do slavery on the way. Yeah. Well, you're supposed to basically work your way up both sides of this bridge to total freedom in Scientology. And what they have right now is that says it goes up to operate, yeah, operating Thayton level 15. But in fact, I'll run Hubbard never wrote nine through 15. So Scientology is still saying this is coming. But it ain't, but even the people they get to OT level eight, which is the final level they have right now. They're getting to that level and they're going, this is crazy. I've still shitty relationships. I'm, I made it all the way to the top. And I'm still a fucking bag of shit in the, in the, in the girlfriend department. And so they're, they, they have this crisis, people have this crisis of faith when they go, they say you're going to solve this on this level and then they get to that level and they go, that was nothing. That was crazy. I just learned about space aliens and on OT three. And it's like, and you're not allowed to talk to anybody about these upper levels. Which is the critical piece because you don't have, it's not like you'd ever have a conversation like, Hey, can you believe what you just read on OT three? Like, what's up with that? That never happens. So Scientologists are forbidden even from comparing notes with each other, even if they're, they're, they've both done the OT levels. Yeah. Like I, I did the OT levels never told Mark. In fact, after we escaped and he was watching South Park. I remember it like it was yesterday. He's like, wait, is this for real? This is what's on OT three? And I was like, yeah, I found about the space aliens in Scientology from South Park. Yes. And when I was watching it, and that was when you told him, well, no, I asked her. I said, yeah, no. really what it is she had done those and she goes yeah pretty much and I was just like and I was like my mind is blown. You knew that there were body fatings and Lord Xenu and all this other stuff and you were like yep checks out. No I didn't say that but the other the other hilarious part about that was he was like okay I'm gonna do a test because in Scientology they believe that if you are exposed to the upper levels before you're ready then you could die from pneumonia. So Mark's like you will die from pneumonia. Yeah so Mark's like okay I'm gonna do a test I'm gonna read all the OT levels so if I'm dead tomorrow morning then hey maybe there's something to it. Yeah that is another kind of chink in their armor which is you can log on to the internet and you can pretty much read all of those confidential upper levels in Scientology. It's been they been leaked. Yeah they didn't plan this in the 50s. They didn't plan that. No. So when I read that I read all of them I read from all the way to the bottom all the way to OTA I read everything in one sitting yeah. So I was like if I'm gonna die it's gonna be tomorrow it's gonna happen now because I've gotten done all this stuff and so when I woke up in the morning went not even a sniffle. And that that that that literally is how I like I think the between the south park and then that and then realizing that nothing happened I did all of the things that they said you cannot do this you will die and then I did it and then I was like oh my god it's all bullshit the whole fucking thing is bullshit. So many of my friends often talked me about how they leave their doctor's office and they feel like they accomplish absolutely nothing. Doc tells them they're fine maybe drink more water and they end up feeling the same the next year when they go to see no real data no game plan just a pat on the back and please get out of my office. And this is exactly why I tell my friends they need superpower. Superpower sends a licensed professional to your home or you can visit a nearby lab. It's one simple blood draw with over a hundred biomarkers which is way more than what you usually get and it actually unlocks a real understanding of your body. 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Once again that superpower.com code julien after you sign up superpowers can ask you where you heard about them. What's that like to finally actually realize that though. Well in my case I was 31 years old when that happened. So a year was a 2005. So I was sort of like there's it's a double edge sword because if I wasn't there then I wouldn't have met Claire and I wouldn't have my three boys and so it's like I kind of got to where I am now on this path and I don't think I would have got here on this path if I didn't do it the way I did I you know who knows what it could have should have but but at the same point I go but I was exposed to enough crazy in there that I think I can undo this if I tell everybody all the stuff that I do. And so that's why I ended up writing the book Boam for Good Behind the Iron Curtain Scientology. It's a great name by the way. Yeah well that place is like behind the Iron Curtain. So when I got out and started learning about all these other things that were happening in the world that what had happened in the world the the only thing that I sort of was like that this is the most like this was the Iron Curtain. So I was like the the the defection the spy kind of network the the the tattletail culture like the if if I said I'm thinking of leaving 99% she would write a report on me and file out and say hey my husband's thinking to do it this that's that's like Germany days 100% so like you can't but that's how you're wired. Yeah your children could rat you out your spouse could rat parents could rat you out so you have all these people if you act the fool or do anything bad about Scientology and anybody in Scientology is around the penalty in Scientology for not reporting that is you are charged with the same crime of the person that you didn't report. So if somebody's leaking confidential materials on the internet and they get declared a suppressive person and then they find out that you knew he was doing that you also get declared a suppressive just for not reporting it. Even if you didn't do anything you just saw that he had something on his computer. Yeah so I don't regret that I was there because I what there's nothing choice. Yeah but also there's nothing I can do right so to even think about oh what if I did this or what it's sort of pointless and unproductive but if I say well there's not the the the the other thing that Scientology don't really account for is if you saw something that was illegal or that something something was bad and you they make you sign NDAs and they make you do all this but it's not it's not illegal to tell somebody about something illegal you can't an NDA can't protect from that right so if I say well he killed this guy you say oh you signed an NDA you said you wouldn't say anything and happy there be like yeah but that's a crime so not our church yeah so but yeah not not our church but so I think I think for a lot of people that are in Scientology they want to leave and they know that it's bullshit they know that there's bad things a lot of people in there a lot of people in Scientology know they themselves have been wronged they've seen one of their families members be wronged or their friends or their business got screwed over by Scientology and they want to leave quick question I'm sorry to cut you off just gotta ask us do you think the percentage of people now that wants to leave is way higher than it was in say the 90s because of the internet alone 100% 100% because because they're getting their they're hearing when you're in Scientology's there's a pretty proliferent whisper web the people like do you hear what happened to Billy Bob you know that and you go like I don't know well then you go on the internet and there's some fucking Billy Bob fucking telling his god damn story so then you go like well I'm pretty much sure I know what happened to Billy Bob so um but they know that happened to they saw that but he said they said that same thing happened to my sister's boyfriend you know the same crazy stuff so but if their family are still in there you can't really go to your family and say hey this is not for me I got to go yeah then you're never gonna talk to your family again so there's this kind of thing where I don't want to go and they have a term in Scientology called under the radar so if you're one of these people that doesn't believe anymore and you're not giving the money you're not going to their events you're not doing anything you're just flying under the radar so and there are so many you don't say anything bad you talk to all your family and you and you yeah yeah yeah awesome good job on whatever you're doing in Scientology but it's like play along to stay along is this more the people though who like aren't in the sea work they're the people that live on in regulars yes yes yeah if you're in the sea or like one of those people that was under the radar is somebody that I don't actually even know the person's name but they knew me when I was a teenager and they know my family and they're like they cannot they're so mad that my family disconnected from from us and have never met my sons and and all this but this person paid for like 200 copies of Marx book and had us send them to like every single politician in California the law enforcement like literally just sent it to everybody wow the other thing is that when you are in there and you want to leave if you like do anything suspicious or you so you really have to because they've taught you that it about the mist withhold and the that well you talking to people online about how bad Scientology is that that's like forbidden Scientology so but if you start active weird around your Scientology family members then they're gonna be like get them out this withhold discuss doing something crazy over there we had a family we had a I think it was the dad who wrote in to us on YouTube or on our website or something and he said I want to thank you for your book because I bought it and read it my wife and my two kids are all in Scientology and I wanted to sit down with them and just tell them listen I this book this guy used to work at the headquarters of Scientology and I think they're doing bad stuff over there when he sat down with the family and told it his wife had already read the book on her Kindle and the kids had already been looking all over the internet so when he went there to basically he's gonna lose his family maybe by making this confession and they're all like hey too yeah we do we're all in the same boat the whole family was already under the radar but none of the other family members knew that because they're not allowed to talk about it so that I would say I would say that there's right now it's not really more than 20 or 30,000 Scientologists in the world that are practicing giving money to Scientology I would say even of those people there's probably 50% of them that have had thoughts about leaving or want to leave but they can't because they work for a Scientology company or they it's just your whole life is this web of Scientology nonsense how many of them would you say live in clear water half of them are I say probably like 20 30% live in clear water 20 30% live in Los Angeles and then everybody else is just all over sprinkled so you you guys said you're a big movie people when you came out you watched it departed oh 100% so you remember the scene where he's like you think he's a cop yeah that was me and deep in clear water last week standing in the parking line yeah what like you think that's a Scientologist he's like not 10 bucks says not well in clear water for a long time because they have they have hundreds of properties in downtown clear water hundreds yes why everything so goddamn cheap yeah and also the streets are empty yeah nobody walking around yeah it's it felt like a true detective episode yeah in some places it's kind of wild that there's all this and there's thousands of people in those buildings yeah but you never see them they would bus people from building to building so that the seorg members they don't get caught like out on their own and they don't get encounter somebody because in the I want to say in the late 90s early 2000s there was a lot of activists and protesters that are holding signs saying like free Zenu you know let your body thaytons out or whatever and or your family misses you yeah it's like drawing a picture of Muhammad yeah yeah and so they don't want one of these random seorg members to see that and then go what are body things what's Lord who's Lord Zenu so they would bust them from location to location so and I think for the most part they still do that between where they live and where they work but every once in a while you'll catch of we I mean we were there last year sometime we were there and we had gone to there's a huge park right on the bay and there's a they built this outdoor pavilion the coach memorial park yeah and when we were at that park we saw a few seorg members walking in between their buildings they cut through the park to go to they look at you they did but they didn't know they did a double thing um yeah no maybe if there was something that used to be at the headquarters that was now in clear water they don't know you are no only we see that's we've been out for what 21 years no but like so high profile no because they're not allowed to look at any of that the seorg members there's no they're not they don't have really internet access TV or we even had it when we're at the end base the international headquarters when you get mail it's opened before you get it they open your mail so if your mom's writing to you saying hey I think you need to get the order there's shit's gonna hit the van they just shred that and then they make a note for outgoing mail too by the way you want to write to your mom even if your mom's a Scientologist has to be read and checked if you give you give them the letter in an open envelope they read it and then they seal it mail this is this is what was killing me when I was talking with Jenna Mascara she was here I was telling you before she was here July 24 we put out a couple months later for episode 235 but she she grew up in that and you know we got into a really good flow of some press with her and like how somehow she's able to have somewhat of a normal life now which is like I can't even fathom that based on her whole family background everything but I'm sitting here and I'm like all right you're talking like a normal person you're out in the normal world now but you spent 21 years completely behind a wall like actually totally behind a wall pre-internet a lot of it did you know who the president was like when you were in there what kind of music did did you think existed do you know what what a baseline sounded like I would start asking her these questions and she'd be like oh no that's really interesting like yeah I knew there was this guy at some point like Bill Clinton but I'm like what was he to you yeah and she's like he was just this thing in this other world yeah it's funny you say that so I think it was in the late 90s there was there was a situation where David Mascarvich went around to people at the base see org members and said who's the president and they literally did not know yeah he was he did not know the answer to it because there was such a media blackout and we weren't getting any form of anything there is no way to know who the president is yeah so at that time David Mascarvich's handling was to literally make every single staff member that base learn who's the president of the U.S. who's the governor of California who's the prime minister yeah literally that was a corner of the David Mascarvich gave was everybody at this property needs to be told who the president of the United States is another crazy thing about like in sync you know no we did we didn't have music we did have music you could go to Walmart on the weekend and buy a CD if you if you were if you were ballin if you had some cash on you still left for your Britney Spears CD and you're like okay yeah when Bill Clinton was actually very cozy with Scientology and when they that's a strange word to use okay well I'll just I'll say I'll say when in when they got their tax exemption was it in yeah was in 1993 when Scientology got received tax exemption from the IRS where they had a huge event at the L.A. sports arena and the war is over we're good to go we're we're legit now the the accountants said we're religion and that was the literally the line David Mascarvich used the war is over they put up a huge graphic on all the screens and the sports arena and it was a congratulations that this is this is many years in the making data to Bill Clinton to Scientologists Scientologists were like yeah well now this is that this is another great I got to tell this one last Bill Clinton story because it is I love it it is it is encapsulates the essence of David Mascarvich so Oprah was throwing a party for I think it was Missy Elliott and John Travolt is there and Oprah all the muckety mucks that Oprah knows are all at this party for Missy Elliott and David Mascarvich gets to go he goes to this thing through John or through Tom or whoever Tom Cruz and and he goes to the party did it and it was kind of all around the international court headquarters like oh there was a big party all the celebrities and all the Scientology celebrities were there but also regular celebrities and David Mascarvich was there rubbing elbows with everybody and we think we heard that he met Bill Clinton anyway so then Bill David Mascarvich is an elevator in Los Angeles at one of their big buildings down there and a seer member goes sir is it true you met Bill Clinton David Mascarvich goes no he met me that's David Mascarvich maybe that's my buddy my buddy Matt Cox who was also visiting when I was down there in the Tampa area you ever hear him no he's got a big show online reformed totally reformed but he was like the world's greatest mortgage fraudster oh okay year period got sentenced to 26 did 13 lot of ratten happen to make that happen but he just got out recently like seven years ago oh okay yeah he's he's big on YouTube now like I said very reformed but you know Matt's really short he's like five three and he always says he's like never trust us I'm like what do you trust us and he goes short people like me want to run the world oh and I was like listen I got a lot of short-king friends out there I'm calling anybody out or anything but there is something to it when a guy is literally like that yeah yeah right there's got that many examples right and And he was always like, I'm, he is the, the cap eats captain, David miscaped it. Captain. That's right. He is the head of the sea organization. And so when we were at the international headquarters, we all wore uniforms. But he didn't. He didn't wear a uniform. But then on the weekends, we would dress in civilian clothes. And on the weekends, when everyone there dressed in civilian clothes, he dressed in his uniform. And he, and somebody said something or did something. And then he says, do you know why when you guys wear your uniforms, I'm not wearing uniform. And when you're wearing civilian clothes, I'm wearing my uniform because I'm not you. I'm not like you. There it is. I'm, I'm up here. Yep. And even Tom Cruise does this thing where he goes, it's Tom Cruise, David Miscavige, El Run Hubbard. That's the hierarchy of, he says that to people, 100%. Tom Cruise thinks David Miscavige is the bee's knees. He wants to be like Tom Cruise. And David Miscav, no, David, Tom Cruise wants to be like David Miscavige. And David Miscavige wants Tom Cruise to be like David Miscavige. So they have. I think that, that video of Tom Cruise in the black turtle neck, in the black. He's, he's saying, only Scientology can help if there's an accident. Please find this. Oh my gosh. And where he says, if there's an accident, Scientologists are the only ones who can help. We, is this the leak from the film set? No. No, no. No, no, no, no. This is from, oh yeah. No, no. That's the reason. Oh yeah. That's the reason. It was a video that was played at a Scientology event. In 2004. Yep. I think in the, the old Matt Lauer, stop being clip. Oh yeah. This is not really cooked a little bit on that one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, let's, we'll give it, if you don't see the video, that means it was copyrighted. So we took it out. We'll react to it afterwards. But let's take a look at this. So this is, this is from a while ago. We'll see which one this is. Yeah. Oh, so Scientology might copyright us. Yeah. Oh yeah. This is it. Scientologists. The reviews for his latest story of the appearance of the awful. I think it's a privilege to have self-scientology. Yes, 100%. This is Tom Cruise in a film, lead to the internet in praise of Scientology, what it has done for him, and what it can do for you. We are the authorities on game evil up drugs. We are the authorities on the mind. The authorities on recruiting conditions, criminal and we can't do this. This is a sear remember doing this riff based off of the Lembiscan version, "Night Cultures." Proud boasts indeed, but then the mission Impossible Star has long been vocalized. Yeah, now this is just all gossips, anyway, but you get the idea now, oh my god. So when that video, that video was played in October of 2004 for Scientologists, so that video was never supposed to leave the Scientology bubble. But when you're a Scientologist, and Tom Cruise is talking in Scientologies to you, then you're like, "Oh, he really 100% is a Scientologist." For many years in the 90s, and even the early 2000s, it was like, "This guy never talks about Scientology to anybody." And when he divorced Nicole, it went hardcore Scientology, Scientology, Scientology. That's also what's so strange, too, because very famously as everyone seems to know now, movie that's got an attention more than it did when it came out as eyes wide shut, which they did together in 1999, which, you know, it's not Scientology, but it's a fucking, you know, dying elite, sex cult. And you wonder how someone like that could participate in doing a film that serious, and that viscerally, I might say, with his own wife, by the way, for whatever it was, a six-month shoot and all that, and all the build-up to it, and then not be able to be like, "Huh." You know what? There's some patterns there. It's funny that you say that because during that time period, within Scientology, David Miscavige had two people in their camp. Nicole's personal assistant was a Scientologist reporting to David Miscavige, and Tom Cruise's personal assistant was a Scientologist reporting to David Miscavige. And they were married. These both of the assistants were married. It was Andrea Doven and Michael Doven. And they worked, and they have credits on all the films that Tom Cruise and Nicole Kevin did that time. And Michael and Andrea were reporting on Tom and Nicole to Scientology, literally, weekly. And during that time, they knew that Tom was pulling away from Scientology. And somehow, some way, I like to joke about this because it's just kind of crazy. But when Nicole did a movie called "Moulin Rouge" with Owen McGregor, and between the info that Scientology was getting from the assistants, it appeared that there may be something happening there on the "Moulin Rouge" thing. And Tom's pulling away Nicole's off doing whatever she's doing. At the international headquarters, we were told by David Miscavige that Tom Cruise cannot have children, period. That's why they adopted two kids. Okay, so that's true or not. That's what David Miscavige told the staff at the point. And that was also something that was maybe along the lines of Tom Cruise ruin that he can't have kids. So they adopt some kids, him and Nicole adopt two kids, and then this thing happens on "Moulin Rouge" and it's sort of like, "Mmm." There's something happening there. But they then Scientology finds out that Nicole had a miscarriage. So they basically saw an opportunity to say, "Hey, listen, the reason all the craziness is happening in your life and everything is because you're connected to a suppressive person." And that's Nicole. And so. Appreciate it, Miscavige. Well, no, no. Just because they weren't in Scientology anymore, really doing Scientology, and whatever's happening in his life is happening in his life. And they basically say, and then, and he knows about, or he's made aware of the miscarriage, and so then they immediately get a divorce. And she never says anything. It's all wrapped up with the lawyers, it's all good. There's nothing to do. So, whether or not that that is what happened, that's what Scientology gleaned and then kind of worked him over with. And then as soon as they split, he became 100% back in Scientology. So, that is the psychology that's fascinating to me when you look at a bonafide global superstar like Tom Cruise. So, it's huge for Scientology to be able to have him and say he's one of our own because the marketing obviously is like, "Oh, Tom Cruise is Scientologist." But it's also, he's just like everyone else out there, he has his insecurities. He has a big ego, not necessarily like everyone else, but he has that go-informance. So, you catch him after a divorce with something like this to where you really pull him into the inner sanctum, what he's vulnerable, and he's probably feeling insecure. And you make this guy, who even though we all look at him, even back then, he was already very much a bonafide global superstar. You make him realize that he's still a at the mercy of people deciding whether or not he gets to be in a movie or not. So, you play, I'm just guessing here, you play on that insecurity to be like, "Yo, in Scientology, Tom, just do what we tell you to do at the top." But you're going to be the guy, you get to be the star, you get to be the person that all the lights and cameras are on, you don't have to try out for roles or whatever. And it makes him feel like, this is a bad way to put it, but like a dwarf among Midgets, in that kind of place right there, to the point that he actually believes he's a giant. Yeah. And also, him and Dave were hanging out a lot after the divorce. And even to the point where, I mean, this story came out in Vanity Fair years and years ago. But when we were still at the property in 2004, I worked for the production arm, the media production arm of Scientology. So making videos, these putting on these events where you see Tom Cruise talking, shooting that video, which that has a crazy story, that video they got shot. Would you shoot that? No, well, Golden Air Productions shot that video. Yeah, the where I worked, I didn't shoot it personally. But we were both there when that video was made three times. Oh, you were there in the room. Well, no, yeah, we were in the editing bays and yeah, all the footage in the video editing, editing bay while that was being put together. The video, that whole video that plays David Mascavage spent days massaging every second. And when the cut when the music comes in and all that for that video. But there was two videos before that that when they when they first When Golden Air Productions set out to shoot, they lit basically every year at the International Association of Scientologists event in England in October, they give out these awards that are called the Freedom Medal Awards. And it's basically hot shot Scientologists that are moving and shaking and getting shit done. So they give these guys what's called an IAS Freedom Medal and it's just a gold medal like this. It looks like an Olympic medal. Yeah, I think I wasn't Tom Cruise wearing one of those yellow league videos. He got like a flavor flavor, he's like giant, right? Everyone, normal people got the Freedom Medal. He got the Freedom Medal of Valor, which I don't think anyone else has ever been awarded. He does do all his own stunts. He does. Yeah. And that is really, I like, I fuck with Tom Cruise movies, you know, but he's not the man. When that, when that, when we were basically told, hey, Tom Cruise is going to get a Freedom Medal this year. And we would normally have three winners. They hope they basically said those guys can get their award next year. The only person who's getting award is Tom. And we're going to do this big, long video. You're going to do the whole, we're going to really, really spruce it up for him. And so they went and golden air productions arranged through, I guess, some of Tom's people that he worked with and whatever to interview Steven Spielberg will Smith, whoever had worked with Tom in the industry to find out what he's like. And so all these interviews were being shot. And then David Miscavige caught wind of it and he was like, what are you doing? Who cares what celebrities think about Tom Cruise? This is a Scientology event. And we want this to be all about Scientology, not that he does his own stunts. Not that he has a shitter trailer that's 20 feet long and he shows up to the set, you know. So, so then a second video was started. And that was Jenna Elfman, Bodie Elfman and Erica, all the Scientology celebrities talking about a lot of real Tom Cruise. And then David Miscavige again, he's like, who gives a shit about these guys? They don't do fuck all of the Scientology. They're useless to us as a celebrity. They're not, they're doing tied commercials. Come on. They're not the level. They're not Tom Cruise level celebrities. So then he said, and you can kind of, if you watch the video, if you watch the video again, David Miscavige basically gives the essence of the video going, we want to know about who Tom Cruise is as a Scientologist. And the only person who can tell us how awesome Tom Cruise is is Tom Cruise. So then that video became that video, it became shooting these 30 people, these 30 people to just, no, we just need to shoot this one dude right here that the video is about. And so that's how that video came, it was this very small crew, cameraman, sound guy, makeup girl, maybe a director. That's it. With Tom and his chair, that's it, in a turtle neck, a nice black turtle neck. Have you ever seen the guy, I don't know his name, maybe you'll know it, the dude on Instagram who takes really bad viral videos, like when people say or do really stupid shit. And like they play the video and then it cuts to him with the film crew back there. Yeah. Yeah. Like taking it off. Like what is going on? I need him, like I need blood in my veins to do that Tom Cruise video. It would be amazing. Scientology, sure, please, if you see this guy that does those videos, do that one. My favorite was when that video came out, there was a bunch of parody videos that were also coming out. There was a movie they made, like it was called like the fly or something like that. And it had a Tom Cruise look alike and he goes, oh, no, I can eat planets, you know, he's wearing a black turtleneck and the same thing, he's like, yeah, it's like K in the video. He says, it's like KSW keeping Scientology working. And this guy's like, it's like KFC, you got to get that, but that shit, you know. And then I think Jerry O'Connell did a spoof of that video. So we had a lot of fun when when that came out, it was like, oh, yeah, this is what we want to do. Basically show like Tom Cruise, when he's on the movie said, he took in Scientology anything. But when he gets in the room with the Scientologists, he pours it on. And the whole reason for that, that event, the International Association Scientology event is it's a fundraising event. So Tom Cruise is going, hey, I'm doing this, I'm giving this money, I'm doing this, I'm talking about Scientology everywhere, and I'm getting people into Scientology. What are you doing as a Scientologist? And he's like, basically, in the video, at the end of the video where the interview, he goes up on stage and David Miscavige gives him the, the metal, the free to metal of our metal. And then they shake hands and then they salute Elron Hubbard on the stage. And Tom Cruise in that acceptance speech just blows smoke up Dave's ass about how awesome he is. Like literally, thank you, sir, I've met the leaders of leaders and you are among the top of, you know, and so, and meanwhile, by the way, David Miscavige was beating up the top executives of Scientology at the headquarters and not only that, but he was saying Tom Cruise offered to come down here and kick your asses and kick your guys' asses to get your ethics in. Yeah. So Dave was basically telling Tom, this is Dave's version. We don't actually know if he did that or if Tom Cruise actually, because this is coming from Dave, but he goes, yeah, I told Tom about all the bullshit I'm dealing with with you guys. And he said, if, if, if, if we wanted it, he'd come up here and kick your asses. And, and you're just like, you're a seerig member, okay? You've been in the seerig, maybe 20, 30 years. Pleasure to kick my ass Tom Cruise. Yeah. Exactly. You're, you want to see new, but you've been in this, and that's when David Miscavige said that thing. He says, it's Tom Cruise. It's me and Ella Rage, and, but, but you're been a seerig member for 20, 30 years, and you're like, David Miscavige said, Tom Cruise is the most dedicated Scientologist I've ever met. And you're like, bitch, I gave you 15 years so far. How can this guy be the guy now? He just, he just showed up. But yeah. So that, that, but again, when Tom Cruise does something stupid or silly like that, then it's not good for him to be a Scientologist, right? Right. So, exactly. But that's the video was not the problem. It was that it was leaked to the internet. Yeah. And David Miscavige's eyes, that's the perfect video because he made it. And then, and then the savaginist of the crowds can see it and it's like, oh, exactly. Your limp, limp biscuit wasn't very good and also people are like, who edited this thing? You know, like David Miscavige edited this thing down to every frame, sure, but it was like, it wasn't you? No, no, I didn't. No, David Miscavige even recorded the voiceover for the guy to match. Yeah. So, he recorded the voiceover that that guy's reading and then told that guy, listen to me in your ears when you read this so you can make it the way I want it to be. But this is a, listen, he has a vision. He's got a vision. Well, I'll tell you one other thing that David Miscavige made that he made that he thought was awesome that didn't turn out that way. A little old film called "Battlefield Earth." Oh, yes. We talk, did we talk about this with Mark Bunker? I think so. When that film was being made, David Miscavige was like the ghost producer of that movie. So the, he saw the costumes. He saw, oh, who we hired for a special guest. He was watching that footage. Dale. He was seeing the dailies from. This is the one with your volta? Yes. Yes. That's based on the book "Battlefield Earth" by El Ron Hubbard. And so when that movie was done, and he would tell us all the time, oh, I'm getting, we're seeing this, we're doing this, and we got one of the guys that worked on Star Wars is doing the effects on this, and they did Independence Day, and you know, whatever it was. And it's like, this is his baby. This is David Miscavige's baby. When that movie is done, he tells us this movie is the best movie ever made. And we all, we all had to go see this movie. If you were a seerk member at the base, they gave us money, and they drove, they bust us to the move, the nearest, to the nearest AMC movie theater, and we had to watch it three times. Cause they wanted to get the ticket sales, they wanted to get the ticket sales. What does that mean? Where they're holding the guys? Yeah. Swap work orange. Yes. 100%. I snuck out on the second. I had a sneak out, but I slept through all three showings of it. I don't, if I remember correctly, if it was Mark Bonker that brought it up, I'm pretty sure when it got brought up on the podcast, if this has come back to me, right, I had never seen any of this before, and then afterward, like we watched like a scene of it, and afterwards I went away. to watch the scene, I'm like, I can't believe this is real. - Yeah. - Like if that's an L did this, you'd be like, all right guys, see ya. - Yeah. - It's looked too much. - Right. - So then when that came out, panned by everybody, I think it won, I think it won the Raspberry for like worst film ever and John Travolta won as worst actor ever. - Of course, Whitaker in it too. - Yeah. - And Barry Pepper. - Yeah, so the director of that was Roger Christian. - The Harry, Barry Pepper's a Scientologist, right? - No. - No. - They were trying to get him in. - They were also trying to get far away with Whitaker in it. - Sorry Barry. - Yeah, they're trying to get-- - Yeah. - They've tried to get a lot of people in it. - Yeah. - But when that came out and then it was like, this is the worst movie ever. Tom Cruise called Davis Gabbard. He was like, "What the fuck with this battlefield earth?" And Dave goes, "I know John that sea sucker." He threw it. - He threw John right under the bus. Like he had nothing to do with it. (laughing) - So that's how David misgavage. That's how it's like, nothing is ever his fault when it goes bad. - Nope. - It's this or that guy or everybody else. - Yep. - But yeah, there's all kinds of craziness that goes on even in that sort of celebrity in Hollywood, they have a giant castle on Franklin. Franklin and Bronson called the Scientology Celebrity Center. It's right next to the 101 Fairway. - This isn't the blue building. - No, no, that's called-- - That's called the complex or big blue. And that's where there's a whole bunch of different Scientology organs. It used to be a Cedar Sinai hospital and Scientology bought it in the 70s when they were building a whole new hospital. And then they made all of those buildings Scientology organizations. - That's someone flew over the Cuckoo's Nest Chit right there. - When we were kids in the early 80s, we would run around in the basements where the morgues used to be down there. And there was like burnout bulbs down there. And it was like, it was the best scary place to go. If you were a kid like, oh, we're gonna go down to the morgues today. - Yeah, this is normal. - Anyway, but if the celebrity center, that's where you have your Elizabeth Mosses and Michael Pena and kind of like the Scientology Celebrity Erica Christians. And some of these guys that have been around for a while that are, if you're doing a commercial, if you're doing a tied commercial, you get to go to the celebrity center. Anything from that up. And they have musicians and they have poets and it's sort of like where the Scientology artists go to do Scientology or just rich Scientology or just the one hanging out with celebrities. - Incidentally, that's also where we got married in August 1992. - Oh, we're gonna come to your guy's story. That's in the back of my head. - Yeah, no, it's just loving all the exposé here. - Well, I'm trying to think of things that people might find. Like, how is it connected to the current zeitgeist? You know, what's going on in all these different things. So, but the celebrities, even after Tom Cruise gets the Freedom Out Medal of Valor and all this other stuff or around that time period. And Dave Misgavage told us that this happened. He said, "Tom Cruise, I didn't tell him to do this." He rounded up all of those Scientology celebrities that we mentioned, the Elfmans and Michael. All whoever was like a celebrity that could do something, Tom Cruise got all those guys together and he brought them to the Scientology Museum on Sunset Boulevard called this psychiatry, the industry of death. Scientology, they're like, those guys are messing with people, not us. These guys are doing crazy stuff, electro-shock therapy and all these barbaric prefrontal lobotomies and all this stuff. - Hit your e-meter. - Yeah, and Tom Cruise took all those guys through it and then at the end, he basically said, you guys aren't doing anything. You're not promoting Scientology. You're not getting people into Scientology. He's like, you best be getting to do in that because I can make it so that you don't ever work in this town again. And so right after that, Jenna Elfman opens a Scientology facility in San Francisco and some of these guys kind of get to it and say, okay, we'll do some stuff and they do a little bit. Danny Masterson was one of the people who started doing more Scientology stuff at that time. - Oh, so he got it talking too. - Yeah, all the Scientology celebrities that are notable were part of that little meeting and then Dave Muscavige told us. He said, he did this and he's putting an ethics on his group of celebrities and that's, and I think that segwayed into the, he'll come up and kick some asses if I want up here too, kind of thing. So Dave Muscavige portrays Tom Cruise as like his right hand man and another trusted individual who knows the burden that David Muscavige has to carry of trying to, you know, get Scientology to succeed and all this other stuff. - Just small shoulders to carry that, don't you? - Well, yeah. - Shortly after that is also when Shelley Muscavige started the project to find Tom Cruise a wife. - Wait. - What? Refresh me on that please. - So Shelley Muscavige is the one who was running the project to find Tom Cruise a wife because by this point, now we're in late 2004, he had been in a relationship with Penelope Cruise, they had tried and failed to get her into Scientology and they broke up. - Do you know anything about the efforts to get her in and what that 100%. - Okay, can we talk about that? Like is good for her for staying away from that. - For sure. - Yeah. - So she was, and again, I should say, this is what we were told. - Okay. - Okay. But they had Jessica Feshback is who later became the handler of Katie Holmes is a member of the C organization and she at this time was working at Celebrity Center. She was doing counseling with Penelope Cruise. They got her onto the purification rundown, but Penelope, as we were told, was either into yoga or Buddhism or some other practices that were forbidden if you're gonna become a Scientologist. So that's kind of where the progress hit a brick wall. - You can't do yoga in Scientology. - They call it. - It's called other practices. - It's called mixing practices or other practices. So. - But Scientology accepts people of all religions. - Code unquote. - They do, so they can make you not part of those religions. - I know, but I know yoga, obviously, has some ancient traditions as well. But, you know, today let's you bench press and squat. - Sure, you can go workout. But if you're doing some yoga nonsense, they'll be like, "Hey, hey, we don't do that again." - So no down, we're bending all the time. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. - You can bench press, you can do push ups, you can do pull ups, but no dodgy positions. - That's right. - Okay. - So she was into something that was unacceptable. - Right. - That was a, at least as again, as it was told to us, was, had gotten to the point where it's a big problem for Tom Cruise that she wasn't going further and further and like, you know, taking it. - Yeah. - How did they get, do you know, 'cause obviously it's second hand here, like you said, but do you know what that conversation is like beyond Tom saying to her, "Hey, I want to take you over to my church," or whatever. Like what the conversation is like once she gets there and who talks her and how they approach the idea of like, "Hey, we're trying to pull you into the big thing right now." - Well, they don't really do it like that. I can give you personal experience because at the international headquarters, when Nicole, so he was married to Mimi Rogers in the early 90s in the late 80s, and when Nicole-- - And Mimi Rogers, by the way, was born as a Scientologist. - Yeah, she was a Scientologist. She's the one who got Tom Cruise in the Scientology. His first wife was the one who got him in. - You know what I think Mark told me that. But when he was doing the movie "Days of Thunder" with Nicole, they started forming a relationship and then Mimi was out and then Nicole showed up. Right after he shot "Days of Thunder," he was working at the international headquarters, training and doing counseling in Scientology, at the headquarters. - Tom Cruise. - And Nicole-- - Cruise was training people. - No, he-- yeah, well-- - He was learning how to do Scientology auditing. - Okay, so that-- when you do Scientology training, that means you're the one being trained. So he was learning how to become a counselor in Scientology so that he could counsel somebody else. But when you were very first starting out in Scientology, you have to counsel someone who's never had any Scientology counseling. You have to get somebody who's raw meat, they're fresh, clean slate. Well, I was so young at that time, and I hadn't done a lot of Scientology stuff. So I became his Scientology. Can you pick that he would practice on? And I did that for every day. I would go and I would sit down and go on the e-meter and Tom Cruise would do counseling. - Tom Cruise was his auditor. - And so then, but Nicole, it was in a room probably twice, three times as well. - We're gonna come back to that, but please keep going. - And in the room, we're sitting at a desk and he's doing that. the counseling. There's a table on the other side of the room, Nicole Kidman's there, Kirstie Alley's there, and they're also doing Scientology courses. So one of the first courses you do in Scientology, especially if you're a celebrity, is a course called the PTSD course. And you learn about-- -Tentil, trouble source, suppressive person. -Yeah, so if you are, if you are what, if you have accidents or you get sick, or anything in your life goes sideways, you are a potential trouble source in Scientology. And the only way that you can be a potential trouble source is if you're connected to a suppressive person. So Scientology celebrities do that as one of their first things, because if there's anybody in their friend group who's like, "Oh no, you shouldn't do Scientology." The people that say you shouldn't do Scientology have crimes against humanity, and they're worried that if Scientology succeeds, their crimes will be revealed. So they don't want you to do that, because they don't want them. Those people that say, "Don't do Scientology," you immediately go, "Oh, he's done some shit." And don't listen to that person. So Nicole was doing that course when Tom Cruise was counting on me. So how old are you again when this is happening? -At that time, it was 92, I think, when that happened, -No, no, it was 1990, so you were 17. -Yeah, it was 17, what, 27, 28, something like that? -Something like that. I remember specifically that he had longer hair than I'd ever seen him have in any top gun or whatever movies. And when he came, he had the day's a cold trickle-fucking hair, which was kind of like a just long-gish hair. Not, you know, comable, not top gun. Anyway, but- -So you're sitting across from the first floor? -I'm sitting across, and even, I was told by the C-org members and religious technology center, you're not allowed to tell anybody about this. No one's to ever know that this happened. This is like, it's like- -That he was even there at the headquarters. Let alone that Tom Cruise was auditing, Mark. -Yeah, so when I went to go get the counseling every day, I would go up, get the counseling, and then everybody on the property is supposed to do two and a half hours of studying of Elrond Hubbard's works every day, and most people do that from like 730 to 10 o'clock at night. That's when their study time is where they study Elrond Hubbard's works. So during my time when I would go off to study, I just wouldn't go to study, I would go to the other side of the property and go get counsel by Tom Cruise. And so when I came back, I was just like, "Oh, I was on study with everybody else. I didn't go do that." But then one of the days, when you go and get counseling and Scientology, you have to have slept to a certain amount of hours, you have to have been well fed, and you basically have to be present there in the counseling. You can't just fall asleep, which I did do one of the times when he fell asleep. I fell asleep while he was counsel. I fell asleep on Tom Cruise. Yeah, I fell asleep on Tom Cruise. Because in Scientology and Counseling, they ask you, it's repetitive questions that you answer, just over and over. They could ask you the same question 50 times. What might that be? Like, think of a place where you could communicate to that. From where could you communicate to a man? Yeah. From where could you communicate to an astray? Whatever. Random ran astray? To anything. To any objects. Do you like? Do you try to do like Ben and Spoon Shitter? That comes later. Anyway, yeah, you move a book in a bottle with your intention. It's called Opera by Dup. And you have a book on one side of the room and a bottle on the other side of the room. And so you're standing, you're ambulatory, according to how this process goes. And so Tom Cruise would say to Mark, look at that book. Walk over to it. Pick it up. What is its color? What is its temperature? Put it back down. Turn around. Look at that bottle. And you just do that over and over and over and over and over again. Anyway, hundreds of hours. And then sometimes you do it on the e-meter. So there's some walking around processing that you do. And then there's some where you're sitting there just answering questions or whatever. Well, when he was doing that, I basically, you know, just faded and just out. You just fall, honestly. And if you are a counselor, what they call an auditor, Scientology Auditor, if you're doing that and somebody falls asleep, you are in huge trouble. You fucked up. So Tom Cruise is in trouble. Yes. That's like the worst sin that your person, you're supposed to be helping them spiritually. And they're so bored with you that they fall asleep. That's a huge thing. But if your Tom Cruise and that happens, guess who gets in trouble? I got in trouble. So I had to switch my schedule and I had to do all this other stuff. But one of the times, before you go into session, you have to be properly fed, properly slept and all that. And there's a test that they do on the e-meter where you take in a deep breath and then you let it out through your mouth. And the needle on the e-meter is supposed to go, "Boosh!" all the way over to the other side of the diet. Or at least one to two inches for you to pass the test. Yeah. And if you don't pass that test, you're not well fed or you're not well rested or something's wrong. What is the science bigger of course there of like the e-meter even working? It's it's it's it's it's total bullshit. It's total 100%. So someone it measures, it measures resistance in your body, essentially. That's what it does. And but it it moves supposedly. Well when you do a physical reaction like that, it does move. Yeah. But if it doesn't move a lot, then you can't start the counseling. Yeah. And so my buddy Danny, I was talking about, he had one. Yeah. On his. There you go. That's a mark. That's called studio. That's called a mark super seven. Quantum. Yeah. They do a pinch test. Oh, yeah, yeah. Is it on there? Yeah. They do a pinch test to. Calibrate it. Yeah. Or to convince people that it is reading your thoughts. The pinch test. So you literally pinch somebody. This is how the Scientologist convince a person that this actually works and can read your thoughts and everything. You hold the cans. It pinch you. And then the person administering the test says, recall the moment of the pinch, and then you'll see the needle react when they think about it. There's someone below the table movement. Yeah, exactly. Even the scavengers down there are up in the lawn, dark moving it. But so I failed that test. When I one of the days, it's called a metabolism test. I failed the test. And Tom, Tom Cruise is like, you ever take bee-pulling? Oh my god. And I'm like, bee-pulling? Like, I'm like, you literally harvest the pollen from bees. And it's like, oh no, they're like little candies. You can just get them. He goes, I've heard that bee-pulling will help you pass some metabolism test. So here I'm told, no one can know that Tom Cruise is doing your counseling. You're going to study, like everybody else. You're not going over to this other place. It's top, top secret. And he's like, they have bee-pulling on the other side of the property in the canteen. We had like a little store next to the dining area where you could buy like sodas and candy bars and shit like that. And supposedly they had fucking bee-pulling up in that bitch. I didn't know anything about it. And so he's like, let's go down. We'll go down and we'll get some bee-pulling. And I'm like, okay, I'm like, I don't know how we're going to get there without anybody seeing it. No, just jump on a motorcycle. I'm riding bitch on the back of his bike. On Tom Cruise's motorcycle. Yeah, we drive down there. There's people coming and going from the dining hall. It's during a meal break. So there's people everywhere. And I'm like, uh, yeah, I'm pretty sure the fucking secret's going to get out. And they say, and I'm not the one who did it. It's him. He, he said we should go here. Oh, you're blaming you. I said, Tom's fault. Yeah, Tommy was all on Tommy Boy. Okay. Mr. Risky business came up with this plan. Anyway, so I take the bee-pulling. I don't remember if it worked or not or whatever it might have. But then every day he was like, are you taking vitamins or I'm like, dude, I'm gonna see work. I don't, I don't have vitamin money. Okay, we're getting 40. We're getting 40, we're getting 40 clams a week. I ain't spending it on vitamins, dude. Oh my god. Was your personality like this though? Back then, like, were you affable and light like this? Pretty much, pretty much. I grew up in Hollywood on the streets, like on Hollywood GovArt, really, when I was little. And then as, as I kind of got older, I started going to the Scientology Schools. But I was kind of a rebel at the, even at the Scientology Schools and getting in trouble there. And I had a few years where I went to school in Venice Beach. And I was like one of a couple of white kids in the entire school. And so I got a lot of pavement fucking meetings against with my face. And so when I went then from that back to a Scientology school and someone says, hey, your mother's this or whatever, you just beat the shit out of them. Oh, it's Scientology School you did. I did. Yeah, you're not supposed to do that in the Scientology School. But I've been at this other place that were that's how that's how the rules were. And then bring that into the kitchen. Yeah. And so here I'm with all these white lily kids in there. - They're like, "Hey, your mouth." You go like, "Tsh, bitch," you know? And then it's like, "Hey, whoa, whoa, we don't do that." - Here, I'd be like, "Well, then stop talking about him, I'm talking about him." - So you never felt compelled to do that to Tom Cruise with anything he says-- - Not Tom Cruise. David Miscavige, I did have a dust up with him one time. And he would, when we would have meetings, so we would go into a meeting with him like after lunch, like one, two o'clock. And then we would literally be in that meeting the whole afternoon, through the dinner break, and maybe eight o'clock or nine o'clock that night. In one meeting, talking about what? - Talking about all the plans that he has that we're not working on, we're not getting done. - However, everyone's a schmucko, huh? - Yeah, and for a while my, I used to be in the manufacturing division, then I was in the cinematography division, then I was in the pre-production, I was in many parts of gold and their productions. And at a certain point, I was the producer. So I was over all the production areas for gold and their productions. And from that post, any plan that David Miscavige had for any area, somehow I was connected to it, either if it's courses we're supposed to produce, videos we're supposed to produce, lectures we're supposed to produce. So I could end up in meetings with him, two or three meetings a day, because he's gonna meet on the event that we're having this IAS event that's coming up in October. Okay, good, and then after lunch, we're gonna meet on what's happening on scripts for films. And so I was in meetings with him many days all day and he would beat the shit out of people in meetings. Punch him, kick him, shove him up against a wall, throw, throw, throw shit at them. - The people naturally react to it? - No, everybody is just like, please not me, please not me, please not me, please not me. If you're going to a meeting with Dave and he's already a little Randy, someone's gonna get a file folder with a bunch of VHSH tips in their face. Just, he literally would take these legal manila folders and we put VHS tapes in it for him to approve a offline edit or an online edit or a music mix or a final mix down or whatever. And he would take one of those with maybe three of these hard shells with the tapes in it and he would fuckin' hit you in the face with the goddamn thing. - Have you seen the, you've seen Elf movie? - And he's an angry Elf. - He's an angry Elf. - He's a South Pole Elf. (laughing) - That is literally the best representation. And he, and he has climbed across a table on Peter Dinkley and throttled somebody. (laughing) - Oh, that's so good. - Yeah, so that's how he watches these, I really do. - Yeah, well, the Office of Special Affairs, 100% watches us, transcribes it and puts it into our file. - Great. - But we were having a meeting like that and or he was having a meeting like that and he came to the area where I was working, which at this time I was over manufacturing of CDs, cassettes, DVDs and basically the videos and audio that come out of Scientology. And I had been demoted from the producer post to that post of manufacturing because I had suggested that in order to produce all these lectures and everything that Dave and Ms. Gavitz wanted produced by a certain time, I needed about $10 million worth of equipment to be able to build out the printing lines and all of the production lines and the packaging to be able to produce hundreds of thousands of these CDs that he, of Elranova's lectures. They're doing lectures in English, Spanish, German, French, Spanish, Castilian, you know, like 14 different languages, they're doing VO talent, rerecording Elranova's lectures. Anyway, and then I got, because I said it, we needed all this money, I got removed from my position and I got put in the area directly running the area that I was proposing needed all this money. And he was walking through about six months later after spending $15 million on equipment for that area. And he said, now this is setup, right? And under, I'm walking through everything with him, now that it's all built and all set up and he goes, yeah, this is the right way to set this up. That nobody else could have done this. And I'm standing right there and I lost my job, I'm my high position, because I wanted to spend 10. And so under my breath, I was like, well, you know, fucking, if you have extra fucking $5 million, you could probably even fucking whatever you do. He heard it and he was like, what the fuck? And he'd just come from one of these meetings, angry elf meetings. And so he was already fucking wound up and he fucking just started punching me. I used to have glasses, he's punching me, the glasses fell off, I got shoved up against like a desk kind of cabinet system, wall mounted cabinets and I'm just like, what the fuck? Anyway, I pick up my glasses and I'm like, you know, let's go bitch and two guys grabbed me from either side and carried me out of the building and as they were carrying me out, he goes, did you see that? He was gonna fucking punch me. And I was like, yeah, damn straight, Skippy. Fucking, it's enough and I left about three months, I escaped about three months after that. 'Cause if the Pope of your Colt gives you the beat down. - Yeah, no. - It's not a lot of opportunities opening up for you after that. So, but that's a Tuesday. - Yeah. - He could literally come into your area. You say something, set them off. Or choke, a little throttle around the neck or you, and the other thing is they have a, like a reprogramming camp in Scientology called the Religion, yeah, the rehabilitation project for us. And that's, it's like a basically a little prison reprogramming camp within the seorg only, within the sea organization is the only one that has this. And you wear all black. You work, do hard labor most of the day, could include scrubbing dumpsters with a toothbrush, cleaning floors and construction, landscaping. - Yeah, and you have to run everywhere. And you're not allowed, if you're in the rehabilitation project for us, you're not allowed to communicate with anyone outside of that. The only spoken, if spoken too. - Yeah. And then five hours a day, you're interrogated for your evil purposes. - For your evil purposes, that's the call. - Yeah. - Against Dave and Ms. Gavage, I'll run Hubbard or Scientology. - And who interrogates you, someone who does that. - And another person that's assigned to the rehabilitation project for us. - You're like, you do it to each other. - Oh my God. - You learn how to do the interrogations, and then you interrogate each other. It's the most efficient system. - Yeah. - Wow. - So there's always the threat that if you say the wrong thing or you do the wrong thing, there's a suppressive person avenue where you get kicked out. Now you can't talk to your family. There's the RPF version where you have to go to the prison camp and that you could be, I think one of the longest stints that somebody had on that was like 13, 14 years of the program. And you keep getting interrogated until there's no evil purposes that read on the e-meter. As long as they think they're used, they use the e-meter as like an evil thought dividing rod. - An evil thought dividing. - Yeah, they're used the e-meter. Like if I ask you a question, I say, is there anything you did today that I should know about? And then it goes, it goes, oh yeah, that right there. What did you just think of? And you go, well. - No, it's not the answer. If it reacted on the e-meter, we're gonna keep talking about it until you answer the question. - And then when you're done telling me what you did, the needle is supposed to float. It's supposed to be very free and flowing. And if it's like that, we're good. We're done. We don't need to talk about that anymore. But until it gets to that thing, we say, was there an earlier, similar overt that you did? And you keep going and tell the needle is smooth and flowing. That means your shit don't stink. Your clean is a whistle. - Yeah, rhythmic sweep of the dial back and forth. That's how it's described. - So you can go to the RPF, you can get declared or you can get a shit kick in from David Muskevich. Which do you pick? - I didn't realize he was like that violin all the time. - 100% for, I would say, starting in the early 90s, all the way up until I left in 2005, he was given beatdowns on a regular basis. - Now he was born into Scientology, right? - He got in as a young kid. - He got in as a child. His father got into science. His parents got into Scientology. And then he started doing the counseling and stuff when he was young. Like he was a certified counselor when he was like 14 or 15. So he'd done all the training and graduated, whatever they needed to do to be able to do counseling on other people, very young and then shortly thereafter. He joined the sea organization and then he ended up and he was in clear water That's where he kind of started and then he got Went up to the headquarters in Los Angeles and then also at the property in Gilman, Hotsprings And then he worked for Hubbard in various roles including Being on the shoot team that did the videos did the film that the shot everything on Either 16 millimeter or then 35 millimeter film for all the Scientology Dribbles learn and under Hitler kind of deal exactly. Yeah, and so That's another crazy thing is because he was he wasn't well liked by Hubbard Hubbard talked mad shit about him and so about miscavige in certain writings Yeah, 100% Shelley miscavige was way closer to Hubbard than David miscavige ever was Shelley miscavige grew up on a ship that Hubbard was operating in the sea at sea And that's where the sea organization started and she was working directly for however how young When she was 11 when she joined the sea. I mean, you know what I got asked was he abusing her? Um, I don't know we've talked to many of the girls mostly girls that young girls that were his They called the messengers. It's called the Commodores Messenger organization and so you have young Females that are working directly for Hubbard and when they go to anywhere in Scientology whether it's an organization or just another seared member Whatever they say is as if Elrond Hubbard was saying it Anything that they do or say is basically coming from him right so We we probably know what five or six of the people over the years that used to work directly for Hubbard in this position There were messengers on the same ship with Shelley miscavige and two of one None of them that we've talked to Say that he had any sexual abuse with them, but there were many things that were incredibly creepy like yeah What like what you know that he would have them wear halter tops and Carey around his ashtray and bathe him and you know Baton mm-hmm and put yeah, there's definitely like the creep factor was out of the roof and also he was very Verboly abusive to all of them would say well, yeah, he he never touched me But he did everything right before up until that point so he got tight with Shelley though because she was one of these Originally well, yeah, so when when the sea organization was moved to land It moved to land in clearwater It will they tone a beach for a little bit and then they moved to clear water when they bet about that big hotel They were like we got it where we got our we got our beach head there And actually the pro I want to say the project to infiltrate clearwater and set up the headquarters of Scientology there was called project normandy Maybe I'm pretty sure it was called project normandy anyway But either way so Shelley and Dave met there in clearwater and Then they became a thing, but in the in the history of it all David Muscat it was it project normandy Was a top-secret church of Scientology operation wearing the church plan to take over the city of Clearwater, Florida By infiltrating government offices and media centers Gabe Kizaras who was the mayor of Clearwater at the time Used to term the occupation of clearwater and later characterized it as a paramilitary operation by a terrorist group. Yeah They were I was honest about it. Well in that time that was when the guardian's office was in full swing and they I think they actually framed They framed a bunch of these people and specifically Gabe Kizaras they they Accused him of doing all kinds of horrible sexual things and they also I think is he the one there was one of some of the people that were kind of messing with Scientology and Clearwater they arranged for a guardian's office member who was also a lawyer to Represent somebody that was trying to sue Scientology So they had their guy representing the guy that was doing them so that that person got screwed You know Bert you know Bert Chrysler of course Bert Chrysler's dad was a lawyer in Florida and He won one of the very few cases in those days that were Scientology got lit up and Hubbard had to pay and it was the Chrysler's dad Chrysler's dad that apple fell far from the turn now let no no, this is the best part as soon as he won that case Elrond Hubbard hired him No, and he never did anything but they hired him because he's one of the lawyers that could win against them so And around and I think Bert's talked about it on different podcasts here and there But it was just known as the church around the house because they put him through fucking college He's a legendary college career right. Yeah anyway. So they created the machine. Oh my god Scientology What is that they co-opted the machine they they sponsored the machine? I feel like it was against Scientology standards though. Oh, yeah No, they they just locked up his dad because his dad won a case against Hubbard So Hubbard was like we need that that guy needs to be on that's the fuck not on the other side That's the Tony soprano method when you're getting divorced from your wife Just consult with every single good divorce lawyer in the area and they can't that's right now. She's up up a pre reflective interest anyway So at the base there was a at the end base There was a lot of people there that either worked on the ship with Hubbard or they were in clear water in the early days And so a lot of these people knew what Hubbard would do in certain situations and They would say Dave ain't doing what Hubbard would have done and Hubbard said you don't have conventions because they Everybody's stops doing Scientology now they're working on setting up an event and you don't do that Dave and Scavich has seven eight conventions a year to get money from Scientologists if he was so Made fun of by Oran Hubbard though. How did he finagle his way into the position to be the guy? He was before he was what he's now called he's called chairman of the board religious technology center Before that He was chairman of the board author services incorporated and author services is it's essentially a Publishing firm or a management firm just for El Run Hubbard. They have one artist Literary for all his science fiction and all that But anything that he wrote they get a royalty Okay, so when you do a course in Scientology El Run Hubbard gets paid because you're using hit the materials that are based on his writings in this course And so there's a huge amount of money that goes to that Well, when Hubbard was still alive He was very suspicious that they were stealing his money And he demanded them to bring him a banker's box of cash about a million bucks and a banker's box Would get secretly delivered to him when he was out in the desert in California And every week they bring him a box and maybe a few weeks they bring him two boxes and then he'd get half a box and he'd be like All right, what's going on here? And so David miscavaged David miscavaged supposedly Lost about 30 million dollars of Hubbard's of money like he he invested in things that were like fake oil wells in Oklahoma and There's a book called It's called the deep blue sea and it talks about these scientists and these like ocean Scientists that figured out where how the tides moved and how things moved over the years and based on that they would take records or any writings of Of treasure ships that had sunk with treasure and figure out where they'd be now and then go there and dig Those people went to Scientology and said hey, we got we got a sure thing going here and David miscavaged Just got burned by all the fake oil wells. He's like no, I ain't doing it And then they'd find it all and they find billions and billions of dollars with the golden in this book the deep blue sea They talk about how they were they went to Scientology to get money from them to invest but so Dave miscavaged started doing this thing where they would sell limited edition books and artwork from Hubbard's books frank for Zeta very famous Painter artist did a bunch of Paintings based on the battlefield earth books and the mission earth Science fiction series and then Scientology would sell these as collector items for like $15,000 a print And so the reason they started doing that yeah, there you go Deep has it quick on the draw here deep is the fastest in the game anyway, so yeah, so they would sell these limited edition prints At to Scientologists mostly and that's how Dave filled that 30 million dollar hole by selling this shit. Oh, yeah, and books Hubbard books leather bound editions at their time telling you There's there's about 30 or 40 of these paintings Limited edition like one through 500 there's selling them for 15 20 30 thousand dollars each and around, he can get on the NFT cradle. Oh my goodness. I mean, shit. So I'm bored body fattens. He would have been, they would have been swimming in 2021. So, so somehow Dave filled that hole. And so they, he never, it never came to light that he had lost the money because he made it up with all this other money. But El Ron Hubbard didn't like them. Well, he suspected he was up to no good. And so during that time, though, there was a project that David Miscavige was in charge of, which was called the All Clear, where they basically needed to make it. So Hubbard wasn't being hunted by law enforcement and the FBI and all these different agencies because he was up, they were Scientology was up to no good. And they had just and they were pending lawsuits. They just got convicted in the Guardian's office thing. They 11, I think I want to say it's 10 or 11 of Scientology's top officials, including El Ron Hubbard's own wife, 12 went to jail for the infiltration of the United States government. His own wife went to jail. Yeah. She, Mary Sue Hubbard went to jail for the, this operation that the Guardian's office was running. And after she got out of jail, she was banished and literally written out of Scientology's history until she passed very similar to Shelly Miscavige. Right. Yeah, we'll come back to that question. Yeah. Anyway, yeah. Quick question. No, there you go. Real fast because you keep talking about all these different cases, whether it's things that would be civil or criminal or whatever. And of course, it rings through that it seems to me whenever the courts outside of Scientology are going to be useful to Scientology. They're like, oh, yeah, see the court, we can do that in court, and it works. But whenever it's going to be unuseful, they'll like, yeah, no, fuck that. They don't mean anything. 100%. Right. Scientology threatens to sue people all the time. Yeah. They never do. They don't. They do not. They threaten to sue people. They don't sue people. The last person I think that they sued was Debbie Cook. It was the case in Texas. And she was one of the top executives. She ran the clear water location for decades. And then she was taken to the headquarters and David Miscavige abused her physically and like made her stand in a trash can and have people throw water at her and stuck a scene label around her made her wear a, anyway, absolutely awful. And she had spoken out. Oh, she sent a letter to send an email. Yeah, she's sent an email to thousands of Scientologists saying the ones that were the top level OT7 and OT8s. Oh, she sent an email to all of them. Yes. Exposing what her experiences were and they sued her and lost. And they ended up right. Yeah, they ended up right. Well, they didn't lose. They ended up right in a check. They settled. Yeah, they settled. But because usually when or whether it's Scientology or anyone, obviously the court strategy is, all right, we're suing one person. We'll just keep creating hearings so that they have legal bills and it goes away kind of the old stuff. Yeah. Imagine trying to see that. But her testimony was so damning that that's why they were like shut it down. Settle. After one day of testimony, they wrote a reject. Yeah. Because she basically told, she told many of the things that that miscavage was up to at the headquarters that people like us had already been telling people all over the place. And now here's a brand new person that just left that's saying that that's still going on. One thing Dave does is he's beaten people. He's choking people. He's being like, it's basically like being in a college fraternity full-time. Yeah, he hates full-time. Exactly. And so then somebody high up one of his lieutenants escapes. And then they go, no, that's the guy that was doing it. And so every time one of those people would leave, they would Scientology be like, Dave miscavage wasn't doing that. That was this guy. And we kicked him out. And so here after all these people had been kicked out that they were throwing under the bus, now this woman comes out. There's no more lieutenants left. It's just Dave left. And she's saying, oh no, Dave's the one who's running this whole show. He's the one doing all this stuff. And so since that time, I don't think Scientology has sued one single person. They get sued. And then they get in to disc, when they abuse the discovery process, now that we're in together, they'll say, they'll literally take the biggest vacuum in the world and try to suck up every document that's ever been created in your life. But they don't, they know if they get in front of a jury, they're toast. That's their worst nightmare. I don't think they have ever in their history won a jury trial. Never. It always goes against them. So they want to, they want to sue. If they're in a lawsuit with somebody, they want that thing to be prolonged for as many decades as possible until the person just says, I'm out. I can't keep, I've spent eight million dollars trying to get four million out of you guys. What the hell are we doing? Yeah. So they, and if it does go, if it's going to go to trial, usually they're given the person to check on the courthouse steps. Scientology tries to use and abuse the legal system to destroy anyone that would try to come after them or expose them, like during the, our lawsuit, when we eventually lost, our attorneys went to Scientology and said, hey, our clients, we're, oh, so the judge had awarded them $43,000 in legal fees that we were required to pay. We were ordered to pay because we lost the suit. And so, and the legal fees, the only reason they were even $43,000 is because Scientology is paying for as many things as they can. Yeah, they were, so that they can, but here's what happened. So our attorneys, unbeknownst to us, turned to Scientology and said, hey, our clients will sign something that will, you know, they won't sue you again in the future. Do you agree to waive that bill, which our attorneys didn't even tell us they were doing this Scientology. That's completely unethical. Well, so apparently it's sort of standard practice, like it's, it is apparently standard practice, at least according to our attorneys to say, hey, we'll agree to, you know, we waive future rights for a lawsuit if you agree to let this bill go. But we would have to sign them, right? You have to be consulted on that, right? No, we should have been. This is where it's above my pay grade. Okay, but so Scientology turned around to that and said, no, no, no, we will only waive the bill if your client meets the following requirements. Agrees to never speak publicly about Scientology ever again, turns over the rights to Mark's book, Blown for Good, Behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology, rats out any media they've ever spoken to, rats out any former members they've ever spoken to, if they meet those requirements, we'll waive the bill. So of course, we were like, we said, no, and I wrote them a check for 43K, and that was the end of it. So, but what was real quick, I just, because you had said this earlier, and I didn't ask you, but what was the story with them? Your lawyers, I don't remember if you said unbeknownst us or how you put it, it was a couple hours ago, but like your lawyers had all these other charges against Scientology, and they just reduced it down to human trafficking. Why did they reduce the other things? What was the logic there? Because there was an ongoing FBI investigation into Scientology for human trafficking. Right. The broader answer to that is that Scientology obviously has by now billions of dollars, and they hired the best law firms, and we were just us with one guy, and they were bearing him in paperwork and this and that and the other thing. So basically, they were using their high-powered attorneys to whittle down our causes of action, and given that the FBI investigation was ongoing, it seemed like, okay, maybe this is a reasonable strategy. It wasn't we lost, but hey, we wouldn't be here speaking to you today if we'd won. But that also, that's the, that was where I was a bit confused, because you mentioned you guys at the time, and we can come back to that, were, were, informants for an FBI investigation. Your lawyers job, I understand like he's getting inundated with paperwork and everything, but his job is still to do best, to do share of responsibility to the client. His responsibility is not to cooperate with the FBI. I understand, and he wasn't involved with the FBI side of this thing. Right. It was just that it was happening. The lawyers are like, if the FBI think they have a case, then this is how we should go, because they're not, the FBI are not opening an investigation and actively interviewing and looking for informants if they don't have something that they think is a real deal. They gotta use this. This is in 2009, 10 in that kind of a period. Our lawsuit was 2009 until 2012. And by the way, you know, I, I will say going into it, I had, I just, I just didn't realize how aggressively Scientology would have gagged us. even if we had one. So in the overall schema things, this was the best possible outcome. And to be fair, a lot of this information about David Misgavid's abuse and a lot of these things made it in to the public because it was filed in the court case and they had to, it was public record at this point. And there were different things that came out of it that ended up being in the end a good thing. But the other thing I was going to say, just to kind of, you know, not throw the lawyer into the bus. But I mean, I was giving him gas money to drive from Northern California down to our house. We, Claire, we're going. I had to walk. I had to, we had a six month old. We had a six month old. Our second son was six months old at the time. I literally carried his car seat into the federal chambers to deliver filings in our lawsuit. Yeah. It was, we were doing this on a shoestring budget, trying to sue. It was a natural daybidding alliance. Yeah, the tour he is lit again. And it was like, the lawyer we had was the one lawyer who was sue Scientology. It wasn't like there were 20 of them and we had a pick. You could go to any law firm in the world and say, Hey, we want to sue Scientology. Like fuck. Fuck that. Do those guys go decades on a case? We don't have that kind of change to, to do that. So it's one of those things where you get what you pay for. But you're also, the reason I was asking like specifically when it was, because if it starts in '09, you guys are now three, four years out. Right. Which is not that, like, it's not that long a time. No, you're still adjusting to the world and how things really work, what are real court systems like. So it's not like you know, Oh, here's the 100 best law firms in New York. And here's why they're the best. Here's what you have no idea about anything. Well, the how we ended up with the lawyer that we had was that my friend, my good friend, who also left Scientology around the time we did. He was an actor and he shot a bunch of Scientology films at the property when I was over at the film team. And it's a guy by the name of Jason Begey. He's on a TV show called Chicago PD now. He's like the main. Jason Begey. Yeah. I know that name. Yeah. He's the main cop on Chicago PD, the TV show on NBC. Anyway, um, he was like, I think I should sue these guys. I give them millions of dollars and they gave me nothing and they messed me up of anything. And so I was trying to help him find a lawyer to sue Scientology. And so we met with these guys and we met this lawyer and he was listening to Jason and, uh, Jason's telling him all the things that happened and the lawyers like, I don't think you have a case. And Jason's like, well, she it, you know, he goes, but, but you, I want to know your story because I think you do have a case. And that's me. And so then we, so then we started. By the way, right around this time, Jason did an interview with Mark Bunker. That is still on YouTube this day. It's probably his most viewed video. Yeah. Wow. Is this Jason Begey interview. Yeah. And, and, uh, and Jason's a character. He is. And he's lots of fun. But he hit my favorite line from that video is show me a mother fucking clear. Yeah. Yeah. He was literally like, they, they talk about clear all the time. Show me a mother fucking clear. I guess. Yes. Yes. We're the best anyway. But, but regardless, um, like I said, we didn't have the pick of the litter of the Scientology capable lawyers that would, that would go up against them. And, um, but, and the, and the crazy thing is, is there was like three or four cases that all got started at the same time by this lawyer. Another law firm out of Long Beach, California ended up picking up those cases. And when that happened is when they kind of said, okay, we're going to do this on this case. We're going to do this on this case. Like the cases were similar, but different enough where they could have different causes of actions. And our case ended up getting dismissed or lost on appeal. And then another case ended up just, they just went, could put, they didn't go anywhere. And I think one other case, the people got converted by Scientology and they went back. And so the case was dead. They let those, they, it was a couple. And they let the couple talk to their Scientology family again. They said, if you, if you cancel this, you're good. You're, you're done. You're back in the fold. You, we're not, we're not going to declare you expressive. You can do whatever you want. And they were like, they were a young couple. And so they jumped right back into the fray. It's so strange because when I hear the experiences of individuals like you guys who used to be in it, the only way that I can really visualize it and the suppression and the constant like staring at each other like, are you going to say it? Are you going to say it? I'm going to report you if you do, but I'm not going to tell you a lot of you do. It's like everyone in there is in the Truman show. You're all true. Completely. 100%. And there are, that's funny that you say that. There's a lot of people that have likened it to the Truman show because it's a whole world of bullshit. Yes. And the, the only ones who know that it's bullshit is David Misgavage. And everybody else is there to save the planet. They're earnestly trying to help people because they've been told that this is the answer. Now, that's my question. Do you think, you're not in his head, so it's impossible to know? But do you think that someone like David Misgavage who bought into this for probably power purposes of the young age, really true blue believer the whole bit, even though he's at the top and no shit now, do you think he's so personally self brainwashed that he might actually believe that some of it's true. I don't think he does. I don't think so either. I mean, and there are a few factors. First of all, David Misgavage, while we were there, had not gotten any counseling, auditing, study, done any of that since 1993. So if you're going to measure, if you're going to measure someone's belief by their active participation in and expectations that everyone else is required to meet, then you should judge that person by their actions. And by his actions, hell no. He's he's selling the supplement, but he ain't taking it. As the saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely. That's my that's my opinion of David Misgavage. And the other thing that I think kind of leans into that is when he did that thing where he lost the money for Hubbard and then he got it back and during that time, he was in charge of this thing to make it. So no one was trying to hunt down or rest Elrond Hubbard. It was called project all clear where Hubbard can just walk around like a normal person, not worried about getting bagged up and taking to jail. So Hubbard is saying, hey, I want you to set the, he's in seclusion. He's in hiding. Nobody knows where he is. Even in Scientology, nobody knew where he was. It was a very top secret wherever Hubbard's location was. But David Misgavage was talking to the guy that was the conduit between the two of them. And when David is trying to do all this stuff legally to make it so Hubbard can be just cool again. He's the one hiring the lawyers. He's the one reworking, retooling the corporate structure. He's the one, he's the only one in Scientology who knew how it was all going to work so that Hubbard couldn't get lit up again. When he figured all that out, he was like, oh, I know more than anything. Everything is siloed. He's like, I know more than even Elrond Hubbard knows on how this is going to work. And then Hubbard dies. And Hubbard put the guy that was the conduit between the two of them. He told that guy or so the story goes, he told that guy, you and your wife are going to be in charge. Not David Misgavage, but David Misgavage was like, oh no, I got this bitch. I've already set this all up. You have no power. You don't exist. And that guy had to get support to do that. Well, that guy was what they call in Scientology an opinion leader. If he says something, Scientologists will listen to what he has to say. But that guy was also the guy that was bringing those banker boxes to Hubbard. And so David Misgavage is like, dude, I got you bringing millions of dollars across state lines. You want to, you want to mess with me? You're done. So the story goes that that dude had a pickup truck. His name was Pat Broker. Pat Broker. Pat Broker had a pickup truck. And he filled it with a whole bunch of banker boxes. And he drove off into the sunset. And David Misgavage. And David Misgavage, that's when he takes over Scientology in 1986. And January of 1986 is when Hubbard died. And that's essentially when David Misgavage's total reign started. He was, he was kind of a head honcho down here working for Hubbard. But as soon as Hubbard was gone, it was like, this is all mine now. And then after that, he systematically took out anyone who would have been competition. But by the way, before I forget, speaking of true believers, Shelley Misgavage, different story can completely 100% full on firm solid believer in Scientology and Hubbard and everything else. And frankly, I I'm sure that's a huge piece of why David Miscavige got rid of her and you know, put her into banishment. They do now, like she was meant, it's like where is Shelley Miscavige for years, but they do now know where she is, right? Well, you have to exercise that the whole to me, the the point is not the question, where is Shelley Miscavige still stands because Shelley Miscavige is not free to leave. She hasn't been seen publicly since 2006. I want to say 2005 shortly after we escaped. She was moved to one of their most secure, least known properties in running Springs, California. You know, if you factor in like from our perspective, Shelley Miscavige was like the first lady of Scientology. She was always at David Miscavige's side. She was his assistant. She was with him in every meeting copied on all the correspondence. She was involved in everything. And then all of a sudden poof, she's gone. That's that's the significant like from a Scientologist perspective or for anyone at working at that property, that when she was gotten rid of and removed and vanished, it was a huge shock to the system. Yeah. It's basically like she was the she was the governor on David Miscavige being crazy. Like without her there, he would go really crazy. Do you think there was real love there? I never saw it. Yeah. We were there. I was there for 15 years. I never saw them hug once. I never saw them kiss once. I never saw them hold hands. And I was in meetings with him some days all day for weeks and weeks and weeks we'd be in meetings with him. And she'd be right there. No, no, no pda in Scientology. Yeah. And in fact, on the contrary, in a conversation I had with Shelley Miscavige, she indicated she didn't outright say, but she heavily implied that she was getting the same abuse of treatment that other executives were physically. Yeah. So how did they end up getting married? What was the story there again? We started to talk about that and got off. Well, they met and cleared water. It was they got married. I want to say in the early 80s, but they were both messengers. They had, you know, both been in this organization for years and by that point. And I want to, I have it in my notes somewhere, but I think they were like 19 and 20 when they got married. Yeah. Yeah. We got married. I was 19 and she was 17. So we've been married 34 years now almost almost 34 years, 34 years in August. Yeah. Got married in Vegas. Oh, you got married in Vegas in California. If you're under age and you go to get a marriage certificate, you have to go see a psychologist or a psychiatrist. They have to sign off on it. And so Scientology is like, if you want to get married in the sea organization, you got to go to Vegas because you can get married at two o'clock in the morning with Vegas. The county clerk has opened 24 hours in Vegas so you can get married anytime you want. And it's like $28. And you don't need to do anything. Yeah. Because you're not allowed to have sex in the sea organization. Because you're not allowed to have sex if you're not married in the sea organization. The tendency is for people to get married really young. And so most people, most seorgh members, you don't get a test drive either. You've got to you've got to find the model you want and commit. So most seorgh members come home in so many jokes. So seorgh members, there was enough seorgh members that are under age that are getting married. Yeah. But they knew the exact way. What's the most efficient way to do it? Yeah. You get one of your family members in Scientology to drive you to Vegas. You get married. Because we didn't have a car of course. And then you come back and you're the point being there are a lot of young marriages that happen in Vegas. Right. And this and this is actually interesting not to be like a little awkward about it. But because you guys were also in a separate world. But I just had Chris Hanson in here. You know, that is. Yeah. Yeah. So obviously like he's the expert on, you know, the legality of of child abuse and all that. And I said to him, I said, you know, let's say I'm a junior in high school and I meet my high school sweetheart and she's a freshman in high school. And we then commence the sexual relationship. And then I turn 18 and she's 16. Like is that statutory rape? And and he had a full legal explanation. He's like, well, no, here's how it would work. All that. But he goes once it gets to like four years, you're fucked or something like that. So when you guys are going to get married at 19 17 technically, you're underage, you're of age. Yeah. So there was a leak. There was a legal loophole as you were just explaining to be able to do it in Vegas. But also, I think I want to say her parents had to sign a document that we could get married. Or no, they don't they so my parents signed over guardianship of me when I was 16, not to him. I got a few tricks of my sleeve. I can see the look. I blink twice if you're a hostage. I got you. It's been 34 years. She's not turning on me now. Okay. No, but that's why I don't read out of the hand. I can't remember what it was then. I thought, oh, maybe I just had to ask them. Maybe we just asked them, or we said we were going to do it. They were like, they were not pro the idea at first. And then I went and visited them for a day, and they warmed up to me without her. Yeah, I couldn't get off work. She wasn't allowed to leave the property. You were alone with with her parents and her sisters. My parents without me. Yeah, I couldn't bring it. How do you smooth the Scientology couple? You're not bringing over red wine? No, no, I didn't bring shit to that. I walked in with probably eight dollars in my pocket. You talk the language. That's how they accept you. But also because I was a seer member, because they're not her mom was a seer member, but then it left. Yeah. So her mom was in status. Her mom and her stepfather were lower status than I was. Yeah. Because I'm at the headquarters of all of Scientology as a seer member, working for Golden Air Productions and working in production and all this stuff. So when I come there, I'm not like a big head honcho, making a sandwich. But I'm, well, oh my gosh, dude, her mom is English and she don't sit down to eat until the dad's done. She's making him everything, doing this, doing that. So when I showed up there, it was like, here's your, here's that. And I was like, it was like, damn, we got hope to hope the young one. Roles like this as well. I like this. This is, I never been treated like this by my own mom. But no. So when I went and saw them, I was basically, she has two younger sisters and a younger brother. And I do good with kids. And I was hanging with the kids and I was talking to the mom and dad. And I was basically just vibing with them for a day. And then I got back to the property. At the end of the night. And I was like, we're good. I got those guys. She couldn't even believe that I went when we when she didn't get. I was trying to go to, but then I was disapproved to leave. And he said, well, I'm going. And I was like, I could not believe it. You're going to go meet my family without me without me. I'm like, yeah. And he was like, what do I need you for? I can lock this down. It was nerve wrecking. What's the magging term for that? It's not, it's obviously not frame magging. But it's something. We've got to have been something for that. Parents magging. You don't parental magging. Yeah. So no. But and the crazy thing about that is we probably saw them a handful of times from when we got married in 92 to when we escaped in 2005. We maybe saw them a handful of times. Yeah. And they lived in Los Angeles. And we were about two and a half hours out of L.A. But they were not allowed to know where we worked physically. It was confidential. Yeah. They're not, you're not, if you're a Scientologist, you're not allowed to know where the international headquarters are. Yeah. Even though if you Google int base, it shows up on the internet as that. And that fact that they were not allowed to know where I worked is the reason they were required to sign over guardianship of me when I was 16 so that I could go work there. So who did they sign it over officially to? To a woman named Leonora Adam who I had never even met. She worked at the property. They sign over guardianship of me to somebody that neither myself nor my mother had ever met. Oh, man. Oh, it's so hard to process that. You're so deep in that like your own mom believes like, oh, this will work out. - Yeah, and that was another crazy thing is that her mom was in the sea organization and left. - Yeah. - And then got together with her step. - She, my mom escaped when I was eight and left me behind. - All right, wait, wait, all right. So I kind of misunderstood that then because when you said you went to visit the parents and the mother and the stepfather, your mother and stepfather, they were lower than you in Scientology, meaning they're still in Scientology, but she had escaped the sea work. - Yes, so, but she ended up going back and staying in the fold, as they say. So she is still, as of right now today, a public Scientologist that lives in Clearwater, Florida. - Have you ever talked with her? - No. - The last time I talked to my mom was in June of 2011. So that was six years after I escaped. My grandmother, who was never in Scientology, was in the hospital dying. And I went to go see my grandmother. My grandmother was the only good part of my childhood. Everything else was complete shit. Excuse my language. But literally, yeah, the, the, I was in, my mom joined the sea organization, signed a billion year contract as a single mom when I was four years old. So I grew up in the cadet organization, which is Nazi youth meets Lord of the Flies meets orphanage. Those are the elements of the cadet organization, especially in the UK at this time. Stonelins was the place where I was raised by children. - In the UK, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. If you type, how do you not have a British accent? - I, I worked really hard to lose it. - Oh, wow. Fun fact, an American dictionary will teach you an American accent. So there were words I couldn't pronounce right, especially A's and R's, like my name. Let's say, Claire. - And she'll say ma. - Claire, ma. - And I, if you look at the pronunciation key in American dictionary, it tells you how to say things right. - Wow, our way. - Our way. - Your way. - She still says insulation, which drives me crazy. - Insulation. - Insulation, like. - Sixth, there are certain words that I did. - Yeah, whenever she, when we got married, she had an English accent. - I did, I did. - In 1992, I'll lose it. - He teased me about it. - Now he wishes I would have kept it. - I, but the, the overriding thing. - That's kind of hot. I mean, you know what I would say. - But here's the thing, I wanted an American accent. People always ask me why. And I say, well, you know, Americans think the UK accent is cool. Conversely, UK people, at least me, thought the American accent was cool. So I wanted an American accent. Also, being born in a cult, I wanted to fit in. That was kind of my, my overriding, chameleon approach to surviving life was to be able to fit in. - There it was right there. - Yeah. - She, yeah. - That slipped a little bit. - Yeah, surviving. - Yeah, so every, but when we first got married, it was so hard her accent that she would be like, "Oh, it's in the bin." And I would be like, and I would say, "In the boot, it's in the this." I'd say, "What a butter cutlery." - Every single time she would mispronounce something, I would say, "What a butter cutlery." (laughing) And so then over the years, mock became mark. (laughing) And the best part is all my digital stuff, Grock, all that, all English accent women. - Oh my God. - Oh my God. - My voice, yeah, yeah, I'm like, "Get me back to where I was before." - I wanna ask that. (laughing) - Wow, that's so fascinating. So is that, you said, well, what did you say that was called being a cadet? - Cadet. - Oh yeah, cadet. Is that, I'm trying to remember 'cause it's been a while. Was that the same thing Jenna was? - Yeah. - Yes. - CEO, the cadet estates org. - So it's basically kids. - I was in the cadet org in the UK. Jenna was in the cadet org in California. - Okay, yeah. - I'm gonna circle back to this in a minute. I wanna close the loop 'cause I think we're gonna be doing two episodes. I'm looking at the clock 'cause we gotta get to your story. Before we get to both of your stories individually and how it happened kind of in a timeline, you had said earlier Claire, that you testified in the Danny Masterson trial as an expert witness. - Yes. - So a lot of people out there familiar with this Danny Masterson from that 70s show famous actor was I think after multiple trials eventually convicted on multiple counts of rape a couple of years ago and is now in prison for 30 or 35 years or something like that. And it was controversial 'cause he's involved with Scientology and all that. When did you get involved with the trial? Was it one of the original trials that was missed trials or how did that all go? - Yeah, so there were two trials. I was approached by the D.A.'s office in California in let's see, September 2022. And interviewed and asked to testify as an expert witness. And of course, I was like, absolutely, all my view is always that I will do whatever I can and whatever capacity I can to expose the abusive practices of Scientology. However, so this was September of 2022. In the first trial, the judge ruled that there was to be no testimony regarding Scientology. So I didn't end up, because of that ruling, I did not testify in that first trial. - Why did he rule that? Because they wanted to keep the judge wanting to keep the Scientology nonsense out of the case and just have it be about what happened. So, but during that trial, the first trial, one of the lawyers for the defense for Danny's team used Scientology book and referenced it in such a way that it basically brought it back into the case. And so then once they did that, when the second case happened, the judge was like, oh, Scientology, it's all, everything's off now. You can do, let's talk about whatever you want Scientology. - And there was another element though, 'cause by my understanding, in the first case, the defense was not arguing that the events took place. They were simply, they were using different lines of defense to try to get Danny Masterson off. However, approaching the second trial, they indicated that they were going to argue that the events even ever happened, which is where the judge then changed her mind because there are written reports that are part of the case that indicate that yes, Scientology knew what happened at the time that they happened. So when the defense changed their strategy, that was at least a part of what opened up, having to include Scientology in the case because they knew about it and were involved. - Did, no, I forget. Did you know Danny Masterson from in Scientology? - I did, but peripherally. - peripherally, yeah. - We shot a film with Danny when he was young, when he was a little kid. And it's, I mean, irony. He plays in Scientology when you do the counseling. You, before you practice on a guinea pig like me, like Tom Cruise did, you practice on a doll. - A doll. - Yeah, so like you have a big giant raggedy and doll there and they put the cans in front of it and they ask all the questions to the doll. - So much so that the movie, huh? - Do you have security footage of Tom Cruise? - No, no, no, Tom Cruise talking to the doll. - No, no, but the movie that he's talking about that Danny Masterson is in is called Use of a Doll in Auditing and TRs. That's the name of the movie. - Yeah, and in that movie, Danny Masterson plays a doll that gets drunk all the time and abuses the other girl dolls by getting them all licked up and having his way with them. This is when he was like 12 or 13 when we shot this movie. And he played a doll called Captain Jack and he was in like a silver lamey space suit and he was Captain Jack and then the other doll was called Goldie and he would as a doll, a beer bottle is like this big damn and we had all these oversized bottles and he would get drunk by just sniffing the fumes in a beer bottle. - 'Cause he's a doll. - 'Cause he's a tiny little doll. And he would get the other girl all licked up too and then get up to nonsense. - What's this called, Cosby? - No, it's called The Use of a Doll in Auditing and TRs. Anyway, but the craziest thing was and I don't know, I didn't see any of this, but the rumor was that something happened with him and her not in the movie. And then she might have been like victims zero. Oh my God. So this was going on for, I mean, he was like a young, like a young L.A. child actor. Yeah. He's also in Scientology. Um, they also believe that overt's are bad, but overt's come from misunderstood words. Misunderstood words? Yeah. Like if you don't understand a word, that's when you start getting up the naughtyness. And so there's dictionaries everywhere in Scientology. Well, not the, not the Merriam Webster. Yeah. No. Merriam Webster dictionaries. So they're using our own weapons against us? Well, this is the thing. When we, when we were there and you're studying in the course room, they have approved versions of different, of different dictionaries. And one of the ones that they used to, so you wouldn't, when you're looking up a word, the worst case scenario is that you're trying to find out what a word means. And then there's three or four other words in the definition that you don't know what they mean. You're not allowed to go past a word. You don't understand. So you, you could be, it's called a word chain. You could literally be looking up words for two weeks straight. Because every time you look up a word, you find two more words that you don't know. And you have to use them in sentences. And you have to look up every single version, every single definition for one word could have 14 different meanings. You have to learn each one of them and use them in sentences. So you fully understand it. And then when that's done in your own words, use it in sentences until you can fully, you can easily do so and then go on to the next definition and the next definition and the next definition. And then you look up the derivation and then you also do the same with any idiomatic usage of the word. Use the idiom in a sentence. And you have to look, do you say derivation? I said, you have to find it. You know what the derivation is. So somebody is like, what is that word? And you're like, Oh, it means this. What's the derivation? It's fucking old Greek bitch. It's basically like who's on first language. But that's a long story to tell you, Danny Masterson was on the, on the cover of the approved dictionary. Him and four, it was a student dictionary. It was him and a bunch of other kids on the cover and he was one of the kids, not because he was in Scientology because he was a child actor, model, whatever. I went to the freaking Webster Student Dictionary Edition's photo shoot and he's on the cover. So when we got, but when we shot the movie with him, I mean, I was still, I think by that time I was in my late teens when we shot that movie. But I am an actor in the movie, and I come in as a seaworked messenger in the film and I bust the real guy who's a suppressive and I get Danny Masterson out of trouble and he's allowed to continue being a training doll after that. Because the real bad guy was the guy that was in Danny's in Captain Jack's ear about getting up to all this nonsense. You weren't thinking of the symbolism of this at the time like this kind of little fucked up. Yeah, no. In retrospect, in retrospect, obviously, but at the time there's not like a moment where you're like, wait a minute. Yeah. I didn't really know the story. I only knew my one part and that I was and that I was allowed to be in the movie. He reads whatever's on the prompter. Yeah. I literally had one page of dialogue. I don't know what else happened. But the crazy thing is is that later after that is when I began working in as a quality control for the manufacturing and I had to watch all those films over and over and over again. And I was in the goddamn films. I'm in a bunch of the Scientology training films that we did at the time. They've redone them all because also Jason Begay was in a ton of those movies. And so when he started, Larry Anderson, Larry, there's a lot of celebrities. A lot of Scientology celebrities that were in all these films. Oh, now they got it. And when they leave, they have to reshoot them all because you can't have show me a mother fucking clear in all the films that you're watching. That was when he was smart. Yeah. Yeah. Jason, he has like a little raspy voice. That's how he talks. Anyway, but when we when we shot with Danny for that movie, he was like a, he was a young teenager. And and I don't think I'm pretty sure he never did another film with us after that because he was on, you know, whatever the shows were, that 70s show or and his brother, Chris Masterson. Is it Malcolm in the middle? He plays, he's in another show where he was an actor, an actor too. So, but that yeah, the Masterson kids and the there's a whole bunch of these Hollywood Erica Christensen, Elizabeth Moss, the Elfman's, they're kind of all floating around. When you're talking about cognitive dissonance, what's the show that she did? Elizabeth Moss? Oh, Handmaid's. Oh, Handmaid's Tale. Yeah. Same thing. You're like, you're playing a, in a show about a coat that does a lot of crazy stuff. You're in one. The coat that you're in also does. That's kind of wild. Yeah. So I have a whole note about all the the crazy parallels in the Handmaid's Tale that just, just to document how much of a, how hypocritical it is of Elizabeth Moss to, to be in that show and claiming that there are no parallels. You know what other show is crazy when Scientology sees it, when Scientologists see it? Severance. Oh my god. I still haven't seen Severance. Why, why is it crazy? Because when you in the show, you basically have some kind of surgery or something and implant. Yeah. So it's basically, yeah. The premise of Severance is that you get a surgery in your brain, like a capsule inserted, that when you're at work, you're one person. When you leave from work, you go back to your original personality and you have no memory of anything that you have. They don't, that each one doesn't know about. Yeah. They're completely separate people. Wow. And in, in the sea organ, Scientology, they, well, in this show, they have what's called the inny. That's the one inside the work. And then you have your Audi. And Audi is the one that's outside doing whatever, not at the, not at the workplace. In Scientology, you only get to be the inny. Yeah. And very rarely, do you get to be the Audi in Severance is even an emitter, by the way, they have it in the show. Yeah. It's, it is made to look a little different, but they're doing auditing. They're doing clay, stuff with clay, which is right out of Scientology's playbook. There are so many parallels. And then the inny's try to escape. And anyway, if you're, if you were in the sea organization in Scientology, and you see this show, you're like, okay, I don't need to watch this. That was my life. Right. They, they have the bust of the creepy guy and the lobby. They have that, they have interrogations. They have, memorizing doctrine verbatim. Literally, the parallels are endless. Does it look like if you PTSD to watch some stuff like this? Well, I watched the first season with her, and then I was like, I'm out. Yeah. Because it, it is. That's a great point because I'm watching. I'm like, why do I need to see this? This is like, I don't want to be reminded of all this craziness. And, and very similar to Severance, they're all up to busy work that seems uselessly unproductive. And that's just how the sea organ is. All these people are running around 18, 16 hours a day doing all this work. And it's not getting more people into Scientology. It feels like, like from the outside looking in, because again, like we were just down there. It's almost like when you're looking down at ants, yeah, you just got to, they just keep moving and then someone steps on the ant farm over here. These ants don't even know about it. Yeah. I'm like, we're just going to keep moving this little fucking leaf all together right to the spot on the mound and hope we don't get stepped on because we don't even know there's a bootstep on the neck and onto the next leaf. Well, what was that like though? Being in court and facing Danny Masterson. And how long were you on the stand for? Uh, two hours, I think. Wow. Yeah, two, three hours. Did you ever make eye contact with them? What was that like? So, I mean, like I said, I was, I was absolutely committed to doing the right thing. You can ask Mark though. I was falling apart. It was terrifying going back into, it felt like going back into the belly of the beast. Not only going to LA where they have a significant presence, but also knowing that, you know, they were, they would have done anything to make me fail. And oh, here's, here's the crazy part. So in February of 2023 is when the DA's office called me and said, okay, the judge has now ruled and you will testify. And then she said, but there's something you need to know. Scientology has called, has named someone to counter your expert witness testimony that they just disclosed today. And that's your stepdad. Oh, I knew it was coming. Oh my god, and then they never ended up calling him as a witness, but it's so it's just the cycle of the level they're trying to get in my head. So yeah, it was, um, anyway, I put together a 30 page report of all the policies they have that make it against their rules and policies to report to authorities, to involve any law enforcement, all on and on and on. There were very specific points that were outlined that those were what I was to testify on to explain the delay in reporting, to explain the policies and the terminology and language of Scientology. Um, but yeah, I mean, it was a huge pressure, um, because there are so many, the, the layering language policies of Scientology make it so complicated that it's really easy to get lost in the, in, in the weeds and language and understanding how things work and like a week mark and I could have a conversation right now and you would literally have not one idea of anything we just said. That's I believe it. Yeah, you can, and also the abbreviation. So you could be like, Hey, I went over to Ashow to get the BMOTC and IP and I'm doing this and I'm gonna, I'll see you at the HGB later. Yeah, and you're just like, like, what? So, so the pressure of, of having to just really keep things super straightforward and specific and on point to educate a jury of 12 people that have, that have no idea of what any of it means, it was, it was a lot. Oh, did you get any, did you get any weird phone calls or reach outs or anything like that? We, we have, it's been going on for a long time. So, probably I want to say since 2005, yeah, when we, after we escaped, as soon as they declared us a suppressive person, a suppressor person, which was the day after I escaped, by the way. Yeah, I left two weeks before she did, but when the day after three weeks, three weeks, the day after she left, we both have the same date, suppressive person declare issues, but we have, we have, um, sign told you has multiple hate websites about us. Oh, yeah. Who is markedly calm, the Stanley, most of our family members have done hate videos against us, like my mom, my step, my brother has been given to so many things that I get spam from. We got to get you a new email. Yeah. No. I don't want to start over. We have private investigators following us in the, in the documents that Mark was talking about in the OSOS spy files documents. It shows that they were, um, they had our phones tapped. Yeah. They were stealing our trash and going through our trash. They were, um, setting up phones tapped. Yeah. They have investigators. Well, the Scientology, they had a list of all of the calls that we had made, including what was discussed and, and who we spoke to. It's totally illegal if it's not a law for sure. Sure. Sure. Like there's nothing if you get caught. Yep. And this is absolutely illegal. And here's the crazy thing. So when you talk about when they had this guardian's office and all these agents, there was hundreds and thousands of Scientologists all over that were one was doing this little thing and one was doing this little thing. Well, you have a Scientologist that works at Verizon. You find out about that. And now we got, we got our guy at Verizon. So that means we got AT&T, we got Sprint, we got Verizon. Yeah. The amount of times we've gotten letters saying, as you requested, we sent your phone records. Yeah. And we're like, we didn't request that. It's gotten to the point now where we have not only do we, you know, change our passwords every 90 days, but we also add security codes. Like that's nothing related to any of our information, just random digits that makes it almost, oh, I want, I won't believe me. One, two, three, four. One, one, one, one, one. No, but while we were 69, 69, that's going to be my next one. Did you know what that was? Scientology? No, no, you, it's, oh, you got to learn all that afterwards. Well, that's what to say. This is the crazy thing because in Scientology, where we worked, you notice how often we say, oh, here's where it gets crazy. I'm like, like, like, it's not all crazy. What is this 69? Yeah. At that, at that property, at that property, there's no internet. No. So when the internet, I want to say like in the late 90s, 1999, 2000, it was like, we're going to let a few see our members get on the internet for research purposes. And I was, I was over the pre-production department, I was over the pre-production department of the cinematography division. And it was, it was ridiculous that we were sending people to the library to go through books to find things for the films and do research. And it was like, and I was pushing like, hey, we have to get on the internet. This is ridiculous. So they have a set up there where the internet is goes through a filter. So if you type anything, body thations, Lord Zee knew, even the word Scientology, or David misguided, scavenge, anything that there's bad stuff on the internet. Hornhub.com. Well, no, no, no, no, any, any variation of any search that's bad about Scientology or that's x-rated, you cannot get to from that property. So, and it will flag it. And it will flag it if you type it in. You'll get, it'll show on your search history that you're getting access to nides. And then, and there's two people that were over the internet for that property. One guy was an RTC, religious technology center where Dave misguided works. And one guy was in Golden Air Productions. He was a security guard at Golden Air Productions. And they were sort of the monitors of the filter. And it came out. And actually, I, the only reason I even heard about it was in a meeting with Dave and misgavage. The guy in RTC, Warren McScav, Warren McChain. Warren McChain. Warren McChain. Why did they say Warren McChavage? Warren McChain. And this guy, the security guard, they were both seeing each other's access to nide. And they were going on all the porn sites. They weren't going to say their one college site. But they were both, they both could see the access to nides for them. And when our little secret and David misgavage in a meeting that Warren McChain was in, he said, oh, Warren's Warren. And it was like, he's probably, he's probably looking at porn. And we were all like, we're all like, the fuck? Warren's a poor monkey. He's gunning up an RTC? That's some bullshit. He's supposed to be watching for that. Oh my God. Yeah. So the people in charge of it are doing that. But the craziest thing is that that property is filled with foreign nationals. So you get Swedes, Danes, Germans, people from Spain, Italy, everything. Well, the filter don't know what titties is in Italian. So these guys that had internet access, they're just searching in their native language. For this stuff. And the filters like, I don't know. Anyway, but yeah, there's no way for someone there. I want to say in the early 2000s, when I, when I was able to get on the internet and do research and do this sort of thing, I was probably one of maybe 10 out of 800 people that were allowed to go on the internet. So they don't have, in the seawork, it's very limited. And then even in recent years, they've been giving seawork members are not allowed to have iPhones, but they're allowed to have Android, because you can't put a filter like their filter that they use that not only blocks you from going to the site, but then also reports to somewhere they what sites you're going to apples like, we ain't that ain't going to be an app store. But on the Android phones, hey, baby, we got all the filters and all the crazy stuff is the CIA created Google. Yes. Which means, well, the CIA create Scientome. There's a ton of people that think that the FBI and the CIA to this day control Scientology. There's a lot of people to think that. And I got to go to the bathroom. So we're going to talk about them afterwards. If that's cool. So this is for me. This is the end of the first episode. We're going to do a second episode right after this has been awesome guys. But in this one, we're going to get into that. And then we're going to really get into your stories like from the beginning and like childhood and some of it we've covered a little bit, but I really want to get an idea of like how it developed over time. Sounds good. All right. Subscribe if you haven't subscribed, and we'll see you for the next episode. Awesome. Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge help. Thank you.