Everything You Know About Napoleon Is Wrong – Historian Andrew Roberts

He was very keen for it to return to its former glory. Make France great again. Make France great again, exactly that. Napoleon then imposes a peace in which he essentially splits up Europe between Russia and France. How does it begin to unravel from there? When the Russians in 1811 decided that they were going to resume trade with Britain, he invaded Russia to try and force them back into the continental system. Of the 615,000 that go into Russia, only 93,000 come back. So he gets exile to Elba. He was there 10 months and he escaped. He lands with only 300 men. If you add the 150,000 Austrians and the 350 Russians, you've got half a million men who are marching. So even if Napoleon had won Waterloo, he'd have found it impossible to end it in Paris. Do you have too many friends? Then head over to our merch store where you'll be able to buy hoodies, T-shirts, caps, stickers, posters, and of course, the world-famous Trigonometry mug. Grab a few of those and all your woke friends are guaranteed to cancel you right away. Go to shop.triggerpod.co.uk. That's shop.triggerpod.co.uk and become part of the show. Lord Andrew Roberts, welcome back to Trigonometry. Thank you so much. What a pleasure it is for Francis and I to have you back. I was saying before we started, our first interview, which was about Winston Churchill, to me, it's a definitive interview about the great man. Still people watching it in the tens of thousands. I know it had a huge impact on book sales for you, for walking with destiny. And it's a pleasure to have you back to talk about another great man, but sort of slightly in inverted commas, because obviously, you know, he was a bit of an enemy of this country, a bit. So I'm going to ask you to tell us a little bit more about him. So let's get straight into it. Let's do that. Napoleon, who was he? Where did he come from, his early life, perhaps? Let's start with that. He was born in Corsica in 1769. He was an aristocrat, but really, Corsica didn't have an aristocracy. So they didn't have any money, but they had a grand background, and they had a sense of themselves as aristocrats. So he was born in Corsica in 1769. His father was a lawyer. He spent a lot of time in his father's extensive library and took on the ideas of the Enlightenment. He read Voltaire and Diderot and so on. And he joined the army quite early because they didn't have enough money to send him to the grand schools. But if you were an aristocrat, you could get free education at military academies. And so he went to two military academies and winded up being an artillery officer in 1794. And tell us about France in this period of time. This is before the French Revolution, which I imagine therefore necessarily means it's quite a turbulent time. There are lots of things going on, various social movements going on. What is the environment in which he is sort of culturing and growing into a man? He was. Actually, he very much agrees with that concept. He said that if you show somebody what they were like at 20, that what the world was going on there and happening in the world when you're 20, you can understand the whole of the rest of the man's life. And there's a lot to that, I think. And when he was 20, of course, as you mentioned, the French Revolution broke out. And so he was still a cadet at that stage, an army cadet, but he was very ambitious. He was extremely well-read because of that time he spent in the library. He was very hardworking and he suddenly saw an opportunity for himself and for all the other army officers who weren't going to be guillotined, essentially, of which hundreds were, indeed thousands. And so there was going to be an opportunity for driven young men like him to get into the very top echelons of the army early, as it were. And he took huge advantage of that, and he was a general by the time he was 24. Wow. So it's very much that Game of Thrones quite chaos as a ladder. Yes, absolutely. Interesting. And did his ambition, you know, obviously, the level of ambition he had is, you know, unusual, to say the least. But was it partly driven by this "I am an ability, but I am impoverished" situation? Or was it just something that, you know, some people are just born like that? And a sense of his own capacity, his abilities. He had a wonderful, I mean, he had a very high opinion of himself, but he was tremendously talented. He was quite hardworking, as I say, intelligent man, who felt that he could do really well and get absolutely to the top. And in the initial fighting that took place in Toulon, because the royalists and the British and various other navies managed to take the centrally most important Mediterranean naval port of Toulon, and the French needed to get it back. And the revolutionaries needed to get it back. And Napoleon was extremely successful with that in 1793. And that's how he became a general in 1794. And just painting the broader picture a little bit, Andrew, obviously, in the modern world, we have this meme about France being, you know, cheese-eating surrender monkeys. But of course, throughout history, it's actually one of the great powers, military powers in Europe, and in fact, the world. What was the military position of France at this time, that Napoleon was coming through? Weak. It had lost the Seven Years' War in 1763. So six years before he was born, France had lost its primacy in Europe, which is your right in saying, absolutely, over the previous 100 years, it had been the great military power of Europe. Louis XIV brought it up to that stage. But by the time he was growing up, it had been humiliated in this war on France. So he was very keen for it to return to its former glory. And he hoped that he would be part of that. Just to complicate that, though, of course, he was also a Corsican nationalist. And the Corsicans, for the early part of his life, wanted independence from France. So he was torn emotionally and intellectually, and certainly politically, between his. his father's dream of an independent Corsica and his own dream of a very powerful France. Because what's really interesting about Napoleon is that he had this meteoric rise. And partly, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's the fact that he proved himself indispensable to the Republic through his talents. He did, and also through his ruthlessness. And this, Francis, is a tremendously important aspect because in October 1795, he was appointed by the government to crush a rebellion in Paris, a royalist uprising in Paris, which he did using what Thomas Carlyle later called a whiff of grapeshot. He got a large number of cannon, 40-plus cannon, from outside Paris. This was actually done by someone called Joachim Murer, who was to become tremendously important as one of his leading marshals. And they used these cannon to kill about 300 Frenchmen as they crossed the bridges over the Seine and tried to take over the central part of the Tuileries Palace, which is where the government was at the time. He just cut them down. He used grapeshot, which lots of very small little musket balls inside a canvas bag that explodes as soon as it leaves the cannon's mouth, and so kills the maximum number of people. And what's interesting about that is that we see, I think, the rise of Napoleon, where he becomes more and more indispensable, which means that he becomes more and more powerful, doesn't he? That's right, and actually, one of the people who was in the government at the time says, there's a statement he makes to cabinet meetings where he says, "As soon as a general considers himself to be indispensable, that's the time we must dispense of him." And they don't. They allow him, after the whiff of grapeshot, to go and fight in Italy. They don't give him. They don't give him enough troops or money or ammunition or supplies or anything. But nonetheless, he manages, through a series of brilliant victories at the beginning of the Italian campaign, to win that campaign against the Austrians in northern Italy. And I want to delve into what made him so special as a general, because he was someone who was truly great because he was an innovator, tactically and strategically. So let's explore that. What was it about tactics and the strategy that he used that made him so brilliant? He ripped up the rulebook completely. There were actual rulebooks that were written about what armies needed to do. And he just took no notice of them, or he took on ideas of the new younger thinkers who were writing revolutionary, radical new ideas. The first is, you don't stick your army outside cities and besiege cities. You go round the cities. leaving enough men to make sure that the people in the city don't run away. rally out but nonetheless you keep moving speed and maneuver is vital you don't wait for your baggage train you live off the land so you basically just take whatever's there and push on you employ something called the core system which means breaking up your divisions into armies sort of mini armies essentially which can hold the enemy in place while your other cores go around the outside and envelop them in some cases in the italian campaign double envelopment um so you have this uh this new form of warfare he was very lucky as well i mean he was in his mid-20s and some of these austrian generals were in their 70s and 80s so um so he was much more uh um energetic then he also had a superb um eye for his lieutenants he he did choose people who was who were very good very trustworthy very brave and so on and so you all have all of these things come together and um he used to plunder cities that and therefore pay for the pay his men who a lot of them after the french revolution hadn't been paid for years and that uh obviously made him popular and brought the morale of the army up and uh yeah there were there were sort of 10 or so um i list them in the book new aspects of soldiering which he brought to bear and let's explore that which ones do you think were the most important the most innovative innovative and also the ones that are most impactful um i think the speed this whole idea of speed he also had a um an idea that uh which is later written about by calvon clausowitz who watched napoleon very carefully and um and he calls it the um the maneuver uh sorry the um strategy of the central maneuver which means that you if you have two enemies and he very often did in the italian campaign he had piedmont and austria what you do is you strike at the hinge between the two um and uh and push one off push the um the stronger one off defeat the the less strong one and then you turn on to the um to the other one so it's a um thing that you see many times the interesting thing actually is that the allies are very very the coalition forces against france are very very slow at working out what napoleon's maneuvers are they don't really come up to understand the uh strategy of the central maneuver until 1813 they don't adopt the core system until 1812 they're very uh they still indulge in very long uh costly sieges right the way up through to 1813 1814 so actually they are um they take a decade virtually more to work out what napoleon's doing and where does this young man get both the confidence and the knowledge to be able to as you say rip up the rule book study he spends an enormous amount of time uh both at home of course but also in his two military academies um discussing debating um learning reading every book on strategy and so on and working out for himself what he thinks is going to work and what isn't so he's tremendously professional and all of the um people who commanded him in these various academies write about how how good he is basically at all of this he's a he's a deep thinker and he works out also just the practical side of how to put these intellectual theories into practice on the battlefield wow that's really interesting and just before we move on with the chronological side of things if we stick with the revolution aspect of it is he ideological does he have a view of how the society domestically ought to be structured does he think that getting rid of the monarchy is the right thing not because it gives him a chance to then become the ultimate leader but for other reasons does he have a vision of how society ought to be yes in uh 1793 um he is he and his family that summer are expelled from corsica because he's a jacobin he's a supporter of the french revolution and they are chucked out off the island because the island is going down the um independence route not for very long because because independence is crushed but nonetheless he is um an ideological supporter of maximilian de robespierre he supports the um guillotining of louis xvi and marie antoinette he is um a really sort of harsh radical revolutionary until the fall of robespierre on the 28th of july 1794 when he then is arrested down in the south of france put in jail for 10 days in fear of his life because he doesn't know whether or not the anti-revolutionaries are going to execute him as well as the 30 or so people that they executed back in paris and there he seems to have a major conversion where he um he recognized that the dreams of jean-jacques rousseau and uh and the other encyclopedias and so on uh actually are um they're just uh utopian ideals and not something that's going to actually work on the ground and he turns against that kind of politics still embracing the republic um and willing of course a year later to cut down the enemies of the republic in the streets of paris with the 300 dead but he's no longer that kind of ideologue wow so in the modern parlance he sort of nearly gets cancelled and realizes the woke one went a bit far can we say he sees the light yes that's fine i mean that's an extraordinary thing for somebody to change their views to that extent well he's still only in his mid-20s and i think that's a time when you can be quite fluid in your in your ideological convictions that's really interesting and so uh having uh gone through the french revolution is a keen supporter then having this moment when he sees the revolution and then he's like i don't know i don't know what to do he's a maybe the extremism was less appropriate than he thought what what what is left at that point in terms of how he sees the world um a fierce french nationalism um is there a belief that um the royals the the bourbons should not be allowed to come back a very strong sense of meritocracy and this is a very important aspect of of the martial arts when we come on to that by 1804 he actually does believe even though he's an aristocrat himself of course the the best men must be allowed to rise especially in the army the talent must be allowed to be harnessed for the good of the country and that means that um all of the assumptions made for the last thousand years in france whereby you could not re rise above the rank and status of your grandfather and father has to be done away with so that's uh arguably one of the most revolutionary ideas the idea of you know in the modern world until quite recently we thought meritocracy was a sort of self-evident obvious best way to do things but actually in that moment this is a revolutionary way of looking at it completely and is it is that part of the bedrock of his success as a as a commander in general and ultimately leader of france undoubtedly because when it comes to choosing his his marshals so his most important um lieutenants what he's trying to do as well as obviously get good soldiers um is to recreate a form of aristocracy in france that has got nothing to do with birth and it's all to do with with talent especially military talent and and um governing talent as well several of these marshals were were very fine um administrators but what he's trying to do therefore is to unleash the incredible energies of um of all frenchmen who suddenly learn that they can get to the top by their talents rather than just have to spend their entire time um staying where they uh where they are so it's a uh it's a fantastic there's a there's a quotation that um was said about him that he allowed the french army to understand that inside every soldier's knapsack is the baton of a marshal of france and that was the case of the 26 marshals um about half of them were the sons of innkeepers and barrel keepers and peasants and domestic soldiers and so on and so forth and so forth and so forth and so forth and so forth and so forth and so forth and so forth and so forth and so forth and so forth and people who had never whose children had never been able to get to the top society before like most people i want more energy better focus and to still be sharp and strong years from now but every time i've gone in for my annual checkup it's the same thing wait weeks to get an appointment sit in a waiting room and then you're in and out in 10 minutes everything looks fine they say drink more water sleep a bit more no real insight no plan just vibes that's why every time i visit the us i use super power members get 150 plus biomarkers tested every year across two separate tests one to set your baseline and one later to see what's actually changed that's a different category information to what you get standing in a doctor's office once a year it covers heart liver thyroid hormones metabolism vitamins and mineral levels gut health and even environmental toxins superpower turns all of that into a personalized health plan rather than a printout you never look at again members using it are catching early risk factors for disease that are the checkup would have missed entirely. Take control of your health with Superpower. For a limited time, our listeners and viewers get $50 off their membership at superpower.com slash Trigonometry. That's superpower.com slash Trigonometry for 50 bucks off your Superpower membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask you how you heard about Superpower. Tell them Trigonometry sent you to support the show. And that was one of the things that was truly revolutionary about Napoleon is the relationship he had not only with his marshals, but with his men on the ground. They truly loved and adored him, didn't they? They certainly did. It's the marshals who actually don't. And I'm sure we'll come on to that later on. But yes, the way in which he was able to inspire his men was partly through his charisma, partly through his writing ability, actually. He would write his orders of the day, proclamations, bulletins, and so on. Which would really get the men excited. There's the moment before the Battle of the Pyramids, when he says, 40 centuries look down on you. So you are being watched by 4,000 years of history. And how you fight today, essentially, is more important than just you. You're taking part in history. And that was a part of what he said was about trying to electrify the soul. If you can electrify the soul of your men, you can get to the top of the world. And that's what he said. And that was obviously because at that time, well, armies have always been hierarchical. But there was this attitude at the time that the men were basically peasants. And then you had the people at the top. And they were the brains. And they were in charge. And there was this huge disconnect. But with Napoleon, you read these stories about how if a man was fighting bravely on the front line, he would ride up to them and take off his legion d'honneur and put it around him. And he would do that. And he would do his neck i mean which you're listening to that hundreds of years on it doesn't fail to be moving and of course if you did get the legend because of your bravery that also uh as well as making you tremendously respected by your um your fellow soldiers you also got a pension and so you didn't have to worry about working after you left the army for the rest of your life so there was an there was a real sort of added practical side as well as the as the glory but but overall yeah you're right i mean that this this lust for glory is something which does grip the french army um and uh it becomes a problem with the marshals later on because it turns into such an obsessive lust for glory that they start starting battles early in order to grab glory you know before they're actually supposed to be um attacking you know before they're actually supposed to be um attacking and that uh obviously isn't a good and that uh obviously isn't a good and that uh obviously isn't a good thing but overall that esprit de corps thing but overall that esprit de corps thing but overall that esprit de corps the along that you have in uh in the the along that you have in uh in the the along that you have in uh in the french ranks that does come very much french ranks that does come very much french ranks that does come very much from a deliberate policy of napoleon's from a deliberate policy of napoleon's from a deliberate policy of napoleon's to adopt meritocracy so let's go back to adopt meritocracy so let's go back to adopt meritocracy so let's go back to the story so he's this is the well it to the story so he's this is the well it to the story so he's this is the well it wasn't italy at the time but let's just wasn't italy at the time but let's just wasn't italy at the time but let's just call it the italian campaign yeah i mean call it the italian campaign yeah i mean call it the italian campaign yeah i mean stunning success victory after victory stunning success victory after victory stunning success victory after victory after victory after victory after victory after victory after victory after victory comes home to a hero's welcome so comes home to a hero's welcome so comes home to a hero's welcome so it starts to go a little bit wrong it starts to go a little bit wrong it starts to go a little bit wrong afterwards with the egyptian campaign afterwards with the egyptian campaign afterwards with the egyptian campaign what happens in the interim well what happens in the interim well what happens in the interim well um in the interim he he makes a plan um in the interim he he makes a plan um in the interim he he makes a plan to invade england to invade england to invade england and um and actually they they they go and um and actually they they they go and um and actually they they they go quite far with this and i'm sorry to quite far with this and i'm sorry to quite far with this and i'm sorry to interrupt just for my clarity interrupt just for my clarity interrupt just for my clarity when you say he makes a plan is he the when you say he makes a plan is he the when you say he makes a plan is he the leader of france already no no no no leader of france already no no no no leader of france already no no no no absolutely not he he is the successful absolutely not he he is the successful absolutely not he he is the successful general who's returned from general who's returned from general who's returned from italy garlanded with honors but he has italy garlanded with honors but he has italy garlanded with honors but he has no no no uh other than his military rank he has no uh other than his military rank he has no uh other than his military rank he has no political power so how is he making this political power so how is he making this political power so how is he making this uh planning because the the ministry of uh planning because the the ministry of uh planning because the the ministry of war want to know what to do with him war want to know what to do with him war want to know what to do with him next next next they recognize they recognize they recognize they know if he stays around yeah he's they know if he stays around yeah he's they know if he stays around yeah he's going to cause problems yes they they going to cause problems yes they they going to cause problems yes they they want to get him out out of the country want to get him out out of the country want to get him out out of the country wow either to um on an expedition to wow either to um on an expedition to wow either to um on an expedition to england or england or england or um as uh as francis mentioned going off um as uh as francis mentioned going off um as uh as francis mentioned going off to egypt okay which will which will very to egypt okay which will which will very to egypt okay which will which will very comprehensively take him out of europe of comprehensively take him out of europe of comprehensively take him out of europe of course and um course and um uh it's a um when they realize that the english that they're not ready to to try and cross the channel because of course the royal navy is um the strongest in the world and able to protect england they then um think seriously about uh about egypt and so he moves into egypt and reading about his story it seems to me and correct me if i'm wrong but it seems the most tenuous of reasons doesn't it to actually go into egypt there are the public reasons that they're trying to cut off british trade in the mediterranean which is perfectly true they did want to sort of stop the increase in uh in british influence in the near east and then there is his private reasons that he only vouchsafes to a few friends including some of the marshals when he you uh when he talks about how he wants to wear a turban hold the quran as he enters um delhi on an elephant delhi's 1800 miles away it would it's it's all sort of pretty nutty stuff frankly i mean um but but in the short term yes he wants to take cairo and make sure that that becomes part of the french empire and uh denies uh trade routes but his secret plan is to become a new alexander the great and but it's also comes with a fascination of egyptology doesn't it yes and he's a lover of ancient history and yes so let's talk about that and the rosetta stone in particular the rosetta stone the um he goes he takes with him on this big expedition 30 000 men in uh over 300 ships um he takes 167 intellectuals what we'll call savon and the savon were going to um to map out egypt they were going to look at all of the ancient um pyramids and the and the philey and the they were going to visit all of the great uh places um you know memphis and so on and actually um make a 21 volume what's called the description of egypt which is published years later um which is still one of the great um cultural and intellectual achievements of of the western world effectively it's an extraordinary thing um the the volumes now cost half a million um pounds each so um you have we'll all have to save up to uh to own them but they're beautiful utterly beautiful and page after page the amount of work that's gone into these as they as they note down all the hieroglyphics and they essentially they start the modern egyptology yeah um now that's not of course one of the primary reasons for him to have done this that was all about strategy and uh and politics and so on um but it's an amazing byproduct and it also shows an aspect of napoleon which surprised some of his marshals because you know up until now conquering was conquering um it wasn't sitting down and making incredibly detailed um illustrations of everywhere that you've seen and the egyptian campaign starts off it starts off very successfully doesn't it yeah and then with alexandria so let's talk about that it starts up successfully and then it starts to go awry the further it goes yes but the people in france don't know this this is the key thing you know there's a huge difference between what's happening on the ground and uh propaganda back home so he um he starts off as you say he lands without loss um he marches to cairo but and takes cairo but he lands without loss um he marches to cairo but and takes cairo but and takes cairo uh after the battle of the pyramids which is a huge victory virtually no french killed thousands of mamaluks who were the um who were the people who ruled um egypt at the time nominally in the name of the turkish sultan but actually they were they were a sort of warlord race that uh that dominated um egypt they were former warrior slaves weren't they exactly that they were and they were um but they built themselves up into this warrior caste which by the way hundreds of years ruled over egypt um so uh so for the ordinary egyptian it was a it was basically a choice between the french and and the mamaluks and they considered both of them to be foreigners um what you um what you get after the fall of cairo is this terrible news which comes which is that um admiral nelson has sailed his british fleet uh into abilkia which is where the french fleet was um was uh at anchor and in a totally brilliant maneuver where he managed to get ships um between the uh the coastline and where the french were moored he essentially sank the french fleet so there was no way home and this as you can imagine was devastating news as far as the morale of the um of the french army was concerned it didn't hold napoleon back he decided then to invade syria uh or at least what is in modern day israel and syria syria and so he gets all the way up to um to acre he goes through through gaza and um and gets up and past uh haifa to um to put Acre under siege, and then can't take Acre, because it's defended as well as by the Turks, also by the British, and some French Royalists as well. And so I want to just go back to the naval battle with Horatio Nelson, because this might be very simplistic, and correct me if I'm wrong, which I'm sure that I might be, but there is this image of Napoleon that he was a brilliant land general, strategist, military expert, but when it came to the naval aspect of warfare, he was deficient. Yes, I think that's very fair, and it's extraordinary really, because it's not as though he didn't understand the sea, he came from an island, he was later obviously exiled to another island and died on another island, so he wasn't just a landlubber, but he. He never really, as a soldier, he never really looked into what admirals and sailors were doing. He often sent his admirals letters asking them to do things that were actually just technically impossible. It was said that he didn't know the difference between Wynwood and Leawood, which obviously is going to be a major problem if you want to. So it is a huge lacuna in his knowledge and understanding, everything to do with the naval aspect. Now, whether he could have stopped Admiral Nelson, who obviously was a great genius, from sinking his fleet anyway, he was in Cairo at the time, hundreds of miles away, but his admiral, Admiral Brees, ought to have been able to have moored his ships in a way that was more intelligent and wouldn't allow Nelson to do what he did. But don't you find it fascinating, Andrew, that this is a man who was intellectually curious, fascinated by. All aspects of history, military strategy, yet when it comes to something as essential as naval warfare, particularly when your main enemies are the Brits, you're going to be incurious at best? Yes, and especially as, of course, as I mentioned earlier, the thing that drove him was the desire to avenge the Seven Years' War. And the Seven Years' War was, to quite a large degree, a naval war. I mean, obviously, yes, you do have big battles like Mindon and so, in Central Europe, but otherwise, what's going on all around the world in the West Indies and the East Indies and the Mediterranean and so on, these are naval battles. And so, yes, as I say, it's a big lacuna in his understanding. Then again, to be fair, Tim, I mean, I don't know if I'm right about this, but I imagine people in history who are able to be geniuses at land warfare and naval warfare in one human being are quite unusual. Very, very. I mean, one can think of a few from the ancient world, but otherwise, yes, I mean, the two do bifurcate, don't they, as areas of expertise, certainly by the time of the 18th century. Well, that's what I mean. The more specialized these fields become, the more difficult it is for one person to know everything about both. Yes. So the campaign stalls, the Egyptian campaign stalls, well, he's not Egyptian anymore, he's out in Syria. What happens from there? Well, he comes back into Cairo and brings back his army, having not been able to capture Acre, and decides that he is going to go back to France. And there's some debate amongst historians about whether or not he intends to overthrow the government of France and set himself up as first consul. The government in France, then known as the Directory, was corrupt, inefficient, and unpopular. And there was huge inflation, and the war hadn't been going well back in Europe. So he, I believe, did have plans, you know, to return and overthrow the government, especially if he found enough supporters in Paris, which he certainly did do. So he returns and. Wait, how does he return? He's got no ships. He manages to get on board. He's got to get on board a frigate, which comes after the Battle of. But what happens to his men? His men all stay back in Egypt to tremendous fury and resentment from them, as you can imagine. I'd imagine. Yes. But their resentment isn't communicated back to France, because you can't get. The British are in control of the Mediterranean, essentially. And apart from this ship that does manage the mural, does manage to get. To get back to First Corsica and then to the south of France, really, there are no communications. And this works hugely to his advantage, of course, because the people of France have heard about the victories and not about the defeats. Ridge first sponsored this show nearly six years ago. I've still got one of their wallets in my pocket right now. And I promise nobody told me to say that. Ridge makes wallets, power banks, luggage, the stuff that actually ends up in your pocket or your bag every single day, not sitting in a drawer somewhere. This year, Ridge is running their sweepstakes for the sixth time, and they've gone bigger than ever. It's live now. Running until the 8th of September, and Tony Hawk is fronting it. So you know they've taken this seriously. Two winners are going to get to choose between a Lamborghini Huracan Storato, a Hennessy Velociraptor, a custom. built Ford Bronco wrapped in Kevlar armor, or $100,000 in cash. The Lambo alone is one of only 1,500 in existence. A naturally aspirated V10 with 610 horsepower, built to go off-road, which sounds like a contradiction until you see it. The Velociraptor is a twin turbo with 558 horsepower. Basically, an American muscle car that's been let loose on a truck. Take your pick. You can enter completely free at Ridge.com. No purchase necessary. But if you're already planning on picking up a wallet or a power bank, every order during the sweepstakes earns you extra entries. So there's genuinely no reason not to. Head to Ridge.com and use the code Trigonometry at checkout for 10% off your first order. And a shot at the biggest giveaway Ridge has ever run. A Lamborghini Huracan Storato, a Hennessy Velociraptor, a Ford Bronco, or $100,000 in cash. Every dollar you spend gets you money. There's more entries, but you don't need to spend anything to enter. That's Ridge.com, code Trigonometry. After you check out, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Tell them we sent you. I think this is a very important point now to talk about the idea of myth-making. Yeah. Which Napoleon was, again, a genius at. He was almost Trumpian in the way that he could have a terrible outcome in Egypt. Yet portray it as this huge success. Some say the greatest victory. I wish I could do the accent. Yes, that's right. And also, he didn't just manipulate the news, although he was very good at that. He brought along, he was the first person, for example, to bring along a printing press on his campaigns with him. So that he would be able to put his point of view out to the army. But he knew that it would get wider. But also, he had painters like David, who would paint wonderful portraits. The most famous one, of course, is him crossing the Alps on his horse. He, in fact, crossed the Alps on foot, and sometimes on a donkey. But you look at that painting where he's on this wonderful sort of steed, and he's pointing towards Italy and so on. So he had. He had a. He had a great form of sort of mouse for propaganda. And this, it's interesting because I don't know if you saw the movie that came out a couple of years ago. I did, I did. You're not a fan. No, it was a terrible movie. It was such a tragedy. 300 million Ridley Scott had to work on that. He had Napoleon bombarding the pyramids, smash, he puts the Battle of Austerlitz, the victory of Austerlitz. He puts the Battle of Austerlitz, the victory of Austerlitz. the victory at Austerlitz, down to putting cannonballs through the ice and the coalition forces sort of falling into it and drowning. He has Napoleon having sex under the table at the Tuileries, whereas in fact Napoleon was very, very keen on the dignified court. You know, the idea of him having sex with Josephine when there were sort of attendants and courtiers present, it's just ludicrous. He has Napoleon and Wellington meeting in Plymouth. I mean, it just basically seems to almost go out of his way to get everything wrong. And when he was asked about this, and various historians, including me, criticized him, he said, his exact words were, effing historians, what do they know? They weren't there, were they? Which is true, you know, we weren't there. However, loads of people were, and they wrote down what happened. And we've read it. Well, the reason I bring it up, but it's interesting that you say that, of course, from people who've watched the film and so may have drawn conclusions that are inaccurate, is you almost don't see him communicating with anyone in any way. And he's portrayed as this very aloof character. And from what little I know about leadership, those are not compatible. You can't be someone who's not capable of inspiring people and communicating with them. And also, like Francis alludes to, propaganda and managing the sentiments of the nation. Yeah. You can't do that and be an effective leader for very long at all, if ever. And so that aspect of his portrayal, I imagine, is also greatly inaccurate. Yes. Yes, he comes over. The Jericho and Phoenix character of Napoleon is glowering and ill-tempered, and you wouldn't follow him anywhere. No. And yet, the actual Napoleon was somebody who people were willing to follow across the desert, you know. To Cairo and through the snowy wastes of Moscow and across every country you can think of in Europe. It just doesn't compute at all. And that's why I think it was great. Yeah, there's this weird scene in that movie, isn't there, where he sort of comes back and the men who are sent to stop him immediately turn to his side. But watching that scene, you're going, why did they do that? This grumpy twat has turned up. Well, like, what was that? Boy, where's the inspiration here? You know what I mean? Yes, exactly. So, was he a great orator? No, interestingly not. He was a very good writer, as I mentioned with the proclamations and orders of the day and so on. But in fact, he wasn't a great orator. And that's partly because he had a Corsican accent, which the French laughed at. You know, they. Doesn't sound like them. They mimicked. And generally, that didn't give him. Also, he had a slightly high-pitched voice as well, which is a surprise. And he was very short, was he not? No, no, no, no. No? No, this is a. The lies are all getting debunked here. This is a myth. He was 5'6", which was the average height for a Frenchman in those days. And I'd also like to point out, exactly my height. So, I don't like it when people call him a midget. I hope. Well, understandable. Somebody as tall as you, Constantine, might think I'm. Or at least Napoleon was a midget, but he wasn't. The reason that that comes about is also propaganda, but in this case, British propaganda. Because the genius. I mean, he was unfortunate in a sense that his time in power also coincided with the three great geniuses of British political caricature, Gilray, Rowlandson and Cruikshank. And those three made him out to. to be tiny, but at the same time dangerous. It's interesting. Usually, you know, they. You can have one or the other, but they managed somehow to make him into a physical small person at the same time a threat to England. But there's a history of that. If you think about, you know, the old. I wouldn't. It's not a meme, but to use modern parlance, it is, you know, Hitler's only got one ball. Do we know that that's not true, though? Well, we know that the other is not in the Albert Hall. Oh! LAUGHTER So, it's a bit of a segue, but coming back to our story from that. So, he comes back from Egypt. And what happens when he returns? He's managed to keep his defeats out of the public eye. Yes. The government is corrupt and vapid and not working. Yeah. He stages a coup, a military coup. And several of the people who are going to be killed and who are going to become his marshals are in key positions to help him. He has one friend, Murat, who takes care of the cavalry. Jean Lannes takes care of the infantry. His friend Berthier. Marmont takes care of the artillery. And his friend Berthier organises the staff. And what they do, the general staff, what they do is to have a two-day essential uprising. The first. forces the parliament to move out of Paris to Saint-Cloud. And then he, on the second day, he goes to Saint-Cloud and tries to persuade the parliament to adopt him as dictator, essentially. Which it doesn't do. It's furious and very resentful. And so he has to then go outside the parliament building, or at least the Saint-Cloud palace, and send Grenadier. with fixed bayonets in to arrest the opponents and to essentially get rid of the parliament. They have to climb out of the window of the orangery at Saint-Cloud. And they're all wearing. In those days, the parliamentarians were wearing great big red togas. And so they jump out of the windows and run away. And of course, every state opening of parliament in the House of Lords, I wear. essentially a red toga. These sort of cloaks. The idea of climbing through a window and running away wearing one just is next to impossible. So as you can imagine, quite a lot of them are arrested and they're exiled. And Napoleon takes power as first consul of France. And is this a purely intra-elite battle? Or are the French people with Napoleon? The ordinary citizens of Paris don't mind. That the director has been overthrown. They have only ever heard good things about Napoleon since the Italian campaign. They recognize that he's. Essentially, in this case, he argues that he's saving the republic from this sort of. He makes up terror plots as well. Says that the British are planning terror plots. He also thinks that he's under threat of assassination, which there's no evidence of. So he creates a sort of security fear. And through it all, he grasps power. And the French people do nothing. They seem to be perfectly happy with this. And then he appoints two other consuls. So the three of them are supposed to rule France. He then brings in a reformed parliament, which is essentially full of his own cronies. And he's done it. And sort of touching on the marshals aspect, but also cronies, there are lots of people who clearly he can trust. He can trust someone to run the artillery. He can trust someone to run the staff. He can trust someone to be the other two consuls. Where does he get all his friends from? Well, partly they are people who've been with him since the beginning. So Berthier, who runs the general staff and becomes minister of war in his new government, was with him from the first day, indeed before the first day, of the Italian campaign. Murat, who was the man who brought the cannons from outside Paris to put down the uprising back in October, 1795. And the following year becomes his, in 1800 becomes his brother-in-law. These are sort of really close part of the family, essentially. And then of course, as there always are, whenever power is shifting, there are the ambitious people who want to be on the side of the rising, the sun, rather than the setting sun. This is the boat to jump in if you want to make way. So he's been through the wars with a lot of these guys that are around him. And he becomes. And some of the opponents. The interesting thing is that there are some people who he appoints as marshals later who actually opposed the Brumaire coup and on political grounds because they were still Jacobins. They were still, they wanted a republic and they feared that if Napoleon takes over the country, he might bin, he might become a Republican. And sure enough, of course, he does. Because he wants to be dictator. Yeah. And so he has overthrown the Republic. He's got himself and the two other councils. Does he immediately turn his eyes on war again externally? Yes. He puts in a few popular measures. He makes sure that bread stays cheap, which of course is absolutely vital if you're not going to be overthrown yourself. He institutes the Bank of France, which tries to get inflation under control and very quickly actually does very successfully. He brings in various reforms, Enlightenment reforms that are popular with the people. And then he goes off and crosses the Alps and tries to recapture Italy, which had been lost in the time that he was in Egypt. I can't remember which historian, it may even have been John Meiersheimer with whom, obviously, we have a few disagreements. Same here, by the way. I imagine. I imagine. But he did describe Napoleon and Hitler, I think, as two congenital aggressors, as he put it. Is this true about Napoleon? Is this just the guy who loved war so much that he was just going to invade everyone until someone stopped him? No. He deeply believed in the Enlightenment. In a sense, he was the Enlightenment on horseback. He wanted to bring French revolutionary ideas, including meritocracy, to the rest of Europe. And secondly, He had many more wars fought against him than he fought against others. The one that I mentioned, the 1800 campaign, yes, he went off to fight it. But that was only after war had been declared against him. And that was true in 1805, 1809. There were seven wars of the coalitions, they're called, between 1792 and 1815. And of those, Napoleon only started two, and the other five were started either against him or revolutionary France by the coalition powers, who hated the concept of meritocracy because, of course, it put their own positions and thrones in danger. I see. So he's almost like, as you know, in the Soviet Union, there were two types of communists, those who believed in communism within one country and those who really saw communism, the only way communism would work is if you exported it everywhere. He was the exporting type. Very, very much. And the other powers were very aggressive and hostile to him because I guess they would have seen effectively what they saw the French Revolution being, which is the great, unwashed, overthrowing and upending the existing order. And killing the king. And obviously all of these other countries, Prussia, Russia, Austria, Britain, are monarchies. And so they strike absolute terror into the idea of. He sets a terrible example for them. their own citizens. Precisely. And another way, whilst we're on the Merseimer equation of Napoleon and Hitler, I think it's also worth pointing out that actually these two men have nothing in common. They, apart from the fact that they fight wars, but then so do all sorts of democracies as well. When the French armies entered places in Germany and Italy, and elsewhere, one of the first things they did was to open up the ghettos and let the Jews have religious and civil liberties for the first time since before the Middle Ages. So you have this sense of the French Revolution being an enlightened thing that was, in this case, very good for the Jews. Completely opposite, obviously, to what you get from the Nazis. Let me say this because I know I'm not alone. At some point, your body just stops bouncing. It's bouncing back the way it used to. You train hard, you travel, you push yourself, and suddenly recovery takes longer. You wake up stiff, joints complain, skin, hair, nails, things don't look or feel quite right anymore. So many people listening to this know exactly what I'm talking about. What surprised me is that this isn't just getting older in some vague sense. A huge part of it is collagen. Your body starts producing less of it from your mid-twenties onwards. Collagen is basically the glue that holds everything together. So when your levels drop, you feel it everywhere. That's why I started using Bubz Naturals Collagen Peptides. And I've stuck with it since I've added it to my routine. Recovery is noticeably better, joints feel stronger, and my skin and hair have improved. I genuinely feel better now than I did a few years ago, and that's not a placebo effect. It's fixing something fundamental. It's also effortless. I put it in my tea, coffee, or any drink. No taste, no smell, no clumps. You forget it's even there. And Bubz isn't just another supplement. It was created in honor of Glenn "Bub" Docherty, a former Navy SEAL who was killed saving Americans in Benghazi. The brand is built around discipline, self-improvement, and doing things properly. They also donate 10% of all profits to charity through the Glenn Docherty Memorial Foundation. The product itself is clean. No sugar, no fillers, third-party tested, NSF certified for sport, Whole30 approved. Sustainably sourced from grass-fed, pasture-raised cattle. Over 100,000 people use it, and it was named "Best Collagen of 2024" by Health.com. If you recognize yourself in what I've just described, this is worth trying. Live better, longer. For a limited time, get 20% off your entire order at BubzNaturals.com with code "TRIG" or click the link in the description of this episode. That's B-U-B-S Naturals.com, code "TRIG." And when they ask, "Where you heard about them?" Tell them Trigonometry sent you. Once more, for 20% off, use code "TRIG" at BubzNaturals.com. And also as well, there's the private aspect of Napoleon. And one of the things that I found so interesting is, on the one hand, you have this military and strategic genius. And on the other hand, you have this relationship and marriage with Josephine, which is, shall we just say, chaotic, to put it mildly. It certainly was chaotic, not least because when he was out in Egypt, she was unfaithful to him with a cavalry captain called Hippolyte Charles. And he found out about it. And so when he came back from Egypt, they had this almighty row, and he had all her stuff put out into the courtyard, and she begged him, and then the stuff was brought back again, and they obviously had fabulous sex, and it was all all right. But he did embark on the first with them, after he heard about this infidelity, the first of 27 affairs with mistresses. So it's a. He believed in meritocracy everywhere. It's a complicated story. But you see, also, his marshals were. I mean, their sex lives were like something like the Rolling Stones tour in 1969. I mean, they were absolutely. There were lots of them, tremendously handsome. They were rich. They were made into counts, and dukes, and princes, and kings, and they were very attractive to women. And one thing led to another. Well, you talk about it in the book, like the early stages. It kind of sounds like, they just sound like a band, really. They're going around having these. and I can't remember the name of one of the marshals, but it was released posthumously, and he was eulogizing about how it was the greatest time of his life. Yeah. Just lads on tour. Yes, exactly. And they thought nothing for anything apart from glory, and lust, and fame, and. Yeah, no, it was a very exciting time for them, of course, until it went wrong. Yeah. Right. So let's come back to the story. He becomes dictator. He goes off to Italy, you said? Yes. He crosses the Alps into Italy, and fights and wins the Battle of Marengo in the June of 1800, which essentially totally stabilizes his rule back in France. He pushes the Austrians out of Italy again for the second time, and then he comes back to France, and this is the period where he does all the big sort of popular stuff. He creates the Code Napoleon. He builds four bridges over the Seine. He entirely changes the education system. He organizes the administrative system of France, as well, with the Conseil d'Etat, and the Code des Comptes, and so on. He gets the financial system under control. He invents the Légion d'honneur. That is the period where he does all this. So he's truly a great ruler. Yes, he's a visionary figure when it comes to creating what is essentially the building blocks of modern France. There are criticisms. You know, the Code Napoleon was tremendously sexist. Tell us about the Code Napoleon. The Code, well, France had, at the time of his, what's called the Brumaire Coup, the coup that took place at the Palace of Saint-Cloud, France had a series of overlapping and competing legislative codes, laws, essentially, which some of them go back to Roman times, others were Bourbon. And they were complicated. Some parts and regions of France adopted one set of codes and others, others. So what he did was to standardize the entire thing into one book called the Code Napoleon. He didn't actually put that much of his own work into it. He oversaw it. It was done by committees of lawyers, and it simplified the entire French legal system, basically. It was very sexist. The entire, all power essentially in the family resided with the patriarch and not the wife. So it's very unpopular now, but it has, it's survived into the legal systems of many European countries. Wasn't one of the laws that if you found your wife cheating on you, you could have her killed? Oh, no, I think you had to kill her yourself. Oh, okay. You've got to have something to do with that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because otherwise, you know, all hell would break loose. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Clearly speaking from experience, he took it quite personally, I take it, Josephine. Okay. So this is an aspect that, frankly, I'm just being honest here about my own ignorances. I really hadn't appreciated the extent to which his domestic achievements were significant and hugely contributory to the history of France. Huge. Yeah. Roads, reservoirs, drinking fountains that you can still see in Iraq. Around Paris, which were to bring clean water into the center of Paris meant that you basically got rid of cholera. which killed tens of thousands of people so so that was useful everything to do with killing the the inflation was tremendously popular because you actually got rid of that terror that anything that you that you owned and possessed would be worthless so he he was very good at that he provided mass employment obviously also in his armies but he was a really efficient hard working but also visionary man who wanted to and did change France forever and where is he getting the money for all of this Andrew because the French Revolution as I understand it happens because the country is basically bankrupt partly because they helped the Americans so much yeah it was their revolution so he inherits this poor country fights the French Revolution so he inherits this poor country fights in wars which are expensive yeah and in wars which are expensive yeah and in wars which are expensive yeah and then you're telling us within a decade then you're telling us within a decade then you're telling us within a decade or two less the country's flourishing is or two less the country's flourishing is or two less the country's flourishing is spending money building this building spending money building this building spending money building this building that yeah how's that happened um partly that yeah how's that happened um partly that yeah how's that happened um partly through the increase in in trade that through the increase in in trade that through the increase in in trade that takes place when he signs a peace treaty takes place when he signs a peace treaty takes place when he signs a peace treaty with Britain in 1802 so it's called the with Britain in 1802 so it's called the with Britain in 1802 so it's called the Treaty of Amiens it doesn't last Treaty of Amiens it doesn't last Treaty of Amiens it doesn't last terribly long but it allows the French terribly long but it allows the French terribly long but it allows the French to um to trade because up until then of to um to trade because up until then of to um to trade because up until then of course the Royal Navy had entirely course the Royal Navy had entirely course the Royal Navy had entirely blockaded all all French ports and blockaded all all French ports and blockaded all all French ports and partly also because um he encouraged partly also because um he encouraged partly also because um he encouraged things like trade fairs um he encouraged things like trade fairs um he encouraged things like trade fairs um he encouraged uh luxury goods which the French have uh luxury goods which the French have uh luxury goods which the French have always been very good at Leon during the always been very good at Leon during the always been very good at Leon during the French Revolution was was devastated by French Revolution was was devastated by French Revolution was was devastated by the fact that people didn't buy silk and the fact that people didn't buy silk and the fact that people didn't buy silk and and lace and velvet because if the if and lace and velvet because if the if and lace and velvet because if the if you did you look like an aristocrat you you did you look like an aristocrat you you did you look like an aristocrat you can have your head chopped off um so he can have your head chopped off um so he can have your head chopped off um so he started up those the luxury trades as started up those the luxury trades as started up those the luxury trades as well um and also stealing that was the well and also stealing that was the well and also stealing that was the massive way in which he injected huge massive way in which he injected huge massive way in which he injected huge amounts of cash when he went to um when amounts of cash when he went to um when amounts of cash when he went to um when he um he um he um went to Rome for example he insisted on went to Rome for example he insisted on went to Rome for example he insisted on the Vatican handing over hundreds of the Vatican handing over hundreds of the Vatican handing over hundreds of um of manuscripts and lots of paintings um of manuscripts and lots of paintings um of manuscripts and lots of paintings and uh and so on but also cash and he and uh and so on but also cash and he and uh and so on but also cash and he would do this to town after town and would do this to town after town and would do this to town after town and the city after city he would impose the city after city he would impose the city after city he would impose outside France obviously he would impose outside France obviously he would impose outside France obviously he would impose these what were called dotations so these what were called dotations so these what were called dotations so somewhat civilized pillaging of the somewhat civilized pillaging of the somewhat civilized pillaging of the Concord territories yes and you can still Concord territories yes and you can still Concord territories yes and you can still today actually see in the Louvre there today actually see in the Louvre there today actually see in the Louvre there are still paintings that were stolen are still paintings that were stolen are still paintings that were stolen from uh from Italy and the Italian from uh from Italy and the Italian from uh from Italy and the Italian campaign yeah and so this is essentially campaign yeah and so this is essentially campaign yeah and so this is essentially peak Napoleon really yes and then some peak Napoleon really yes and then some peak Napoleon really yes and then some historians would argue 1806 1807 but historians would argue 1806 1807 but historians would argue 1806 1807 but but certainly by 1805 you've got uh but certainly by 1805 you've got uh but certainly by 1805 you've got uh Pete Napoleon and Pete Napoleon really Pete Napoleon and Pete Napoleon really Pete Napoleon and Pete Napoleon really is the Battle of Austerlitz isn't it is the Battle of Austerlitz isn't it is the Battle of Austerlitz isn't it yes so let's talk about that why did it yes so let's talk about that why did it yes so let's talk about that why did it happen who was it against and why was happen who was it against and why was happen who was it against and why was it such a magnificent victory well what was such a magnificent victory well what was such a magnificent victory well what was the war in fact perhaps tell us yes it's the war in fact perhaps tell us yes it's the war in fact perhaps tell us yes it's called the war of the third Coalition called the war of the third Coalition called the war of the third Coalition and um it takes place when the um and um it takes place when the um and um it takes place when the um Austrians rather stupidly uh invade Austrians rather stupidly uh invade Austrians rather stupidly uh invade Bavaria which is Napoleon's ally and Bavaria which is Napoleon's ally and Bavaria which is Napoleon's ally and Napoleon at that point has his entire Napoleon at that point has his entire Napoleon at that point has his entire army um on the um on the Channel Coast army um on the Channel Coast army um on the Channel Coast looking out towards Britain and waiting looking out towards Britain and waiting looking out towards Britain and waiting for a moment that the Royal Navy can be for a moment that the Royal Navy can be for a moment that the Royal Navy can be tricked away from um from England and he tricked away from um from England and he tricked away from um from England and he can then cross the Channel and and March can then cross the Channel and and march can then cross the Channel and and march on London which is one of his great on London which is one of his great on London which is one of his great dreams and um that uh that doesn't take dreams and um that uh that doesn't take dreams and um that uh that doesn't take place the the Admiralty in in Britain place the the Admiralty in in Britain place the the Admiralty in in Britain you know knows exactly what uh what he you know knows exactly what uh what he you know knows exactly what uh what he knows of of each of these sort of mini knows of of each of these sort of mini knows of of each of these sort of mini armies are by that stage um commanded armies are by that stage um commanded armies are by that stage um commanded each of the cores are commanded by a each of the cores are commanded by a each of the cores are commanded by a Marshall and they have a um um they have Marshall and they have a um um they have Marshall and they have a um um they have headquarters all the way along the um the headquarters all the way along the um the headquarters all the way along the um the coast and at the moment that he hears coast and at the moment that he hears coast and at the moment that he hears that Bavaria is about to be invaded i.e that Bavaria is about to be invaded i.e that Bavaria is about to be invaded i.e it is actually invaded because he has it is actually invaded because he has it is actually invaded because he has spies all over Europe um he um he turns spies all over Europe um he um he turns spies all over Europe um he um he turns it's called the pirouette of boulogne he it's called the pirouette of boulogne he it's called the pirouette of boulogne he turns the entire Army um round and um turns the entire Army um round and um turns the entire Army um round and um and marches straight towards um Bohemia and marches straight towards um Bohemia and marches straight towards um Bohemia and uh and uh and uh it's an extraordinary um and still today it's an extraordinary um and still today it's an extraordinary um and still today is taught actually in military um in is taught actually in military um in is taught actually in military um in military academies extraordinary genius military academies extraordinary genius military academies extraordinary genius of this man Berthier Alexander Berthier of this man Berthier Alexander Berthier of this man Berthier Alexander Berthier the um who was an aristocrat he was the the um who was an aristocrat he was the the um who was an aristocrat he was the chief of staff and many people many chief of staff and many people many chief of staff and many people many historians think he's still the greatest historians think he's still the greatest historians think he's still the greatest chief of staff in in military history chief of staff in in military history chief of staff in in military history and what he did was to plot the entire and what he did was to plot the entire and what he did was to plot the entire army right the way down to the last man army right the way down to the last man army right the way down to the last man how they got 600 miles across Europe how they got 600 miles across Europe how they got 600 miles across Europe without overlapping managing to keep all without overlapping managing to keep all without overlapping managing to keep all the um supplies and and food and the um supplies and and food and the um supplies and and food and everything going with them um this time everything going with them um this time everything going with them um this time they they actually brought everything they they actually brought everything they they actually brought everything with them and and it didn't slow them with them and and it didn't slow them with them and and it didn't slow them down because he this man was an absolute down because he this man was an absolute down because he this man was an absolute genius at uh at um maneuver and they genius at uh at um maneuver and they genius at uh at um maneuver and they managed to managed to managed to um to free Bavaria and then do a um to free Bavaria and then do a um to free Bavaria and then do a pirouette inside the Black Forest so as pirouette inside the Black Forest so as pirouette inside the Black Forest so as the the Austrians who were being the the Austrians who were being the the Austrians who were being supported by the Russians um thought supported by the Russians um thought supported by the Russians um thought they were coming in one direction they were coming in one direction they were coming in one direction actually in the middle of the Black actually in the middle of the Black actually in the middle of the Black Forest they change director directions Forest they change director directions Forest they change director directions 90 degrees which you can do under the 90 degrees which you can do under the 90 degrees which you can do under the core system so you just move the move core system so you just move the move core system so you just move the move the units around and then came South and the units around and then came South and the units around and then came South and um and captured um Vienna um and captured um Vienna um and captured um Vienna and then after that they uh they they and then after that they uh they they and then after that they uh they they met the huge um much larger met the huge um much larger met the huge um much larger Austro-Russian army at the Battle of Austro-Russian army at the Battle of Austro-Russian army at the Battle of Auschwitz on the 2nd of December 1805 Auschwitz on the 2nd of December 1805 Auschwitz on the 2nd of December 1805 which um coincidentally was not entirely which um coincidentally was not entirely which um coincidentally was not entirely coincidentally uh was the first coincidentally uh was the first coincidentally uh was the first anniversary of the coronation of of anniversary of the coronation of of anniversary of the coronation of of Napoleon as Emperor of France um and uh Napoleon as Emperor of France um and uh Napoleon as Emperor of France um and uh it's a it's an extraordinary set piece it's a it's an extraordinary set piece it's a it's an extraordinary set piece battle Auslitz when you when you go I do battle Auslitz when you when you go I do battle Auslitz when you when you go I do recommend you uh if you're ever in that recommend you uh if you're ever in that recommend you uh if you're ever in that part of the world near Bruno in uh in part of the world near Bruno in uh in part of the world near Bruno in uh in Bohemia um in uh in the Czech Republic Bohemia um in uh in the Czech Republic Bohemia um in uh in the Czech Republic you can um see the battle from the place you can um see the battle from the place you can um see the battle from the place where Napoleon was um little Hill called where Napoleon was um little Hill called where Napoleon was um little Hill called Zoran and you can look down and see the Zoran and you can look down and see the Zoran and you can look down and see the way in which he um first of all hid a way in which he um first of all hid a way in which he um first of all hid a entire core under Marshall salt in the entire core under Marshall salt in the entire core under Marshall salt in the valley which was um covered in mist so valley which was um covered in mist so valley which was um covered in mist so the coalition troops couldn't see that the coalition troops couldn't see that the coalition troops couldn't see that it was there and as the sun burnt off it was there and as the sun burnt off it was there and as the sun burnt off the mist he sent the um salt in a in a the mist he sent the um salt in a in a the mist he sent the um salt in a in a sort of surprise attack up the Prattson sort of surprise attack up the Prattson sort of surprise attack up the Prattson Heights at the same time that he was Heights at the same time that he was Heights at the same time that he was using Bernadotte and um and Davu these using Bernadotte and um and Davu these using Bernadotte and um and Davu these uh great marshals of his to hold the uh great marshals of his to hold the uh great marshals of his to hold the left hand of his line and then he had a left hand of his line and then he had a left hand of his line and then he had a very powerful right flank Maneuver as very powerful right flank Maneuver as very powerful right flank Maneuver as well and the and frankly the Austrians well and the and frankly the Austrians well and the and frankly the Austrians and Russians who weren't very good at and Russians who weren't very good at and Russians who weren't very good at coordinating between them either didn't coordinating between them either didn't coordinating between them either didn't know what hit him and they were pushed know what hit him and they were pushed know what hit him and they were pushed off the Pratt's and Heights and um and off the Pratt's and Heights and um and off the Pratt's and Heights and um and in just a series of absolutely brilliant in just a series of absolutely brilliant in just a series of absolutely brilliant Maneuvers entirely coordinated by him but Maneuvers entirely coordinated by him but Maneuvers entirely coordinated by him but which he had explained to the marshals which he had explained to the marshals which he had explained to the marshals the night before the battle and he the night before the battle and he the night before the battle and he managed to to win easily the greatest managed to to win easily the greatest managed to to win easily the greatest victory of his career which knocked the victory of his career which knocked the victory of his career which knocked the uh which ended the third Coalition knocked uh which ended the third Coalition knocked uh which ended the third Coalition knocked out and uh and essentially left out and uh and essentially left out and uh and essentially left him master of Europe and this was an him master of Europe and this was an him master of Europe and this was an essential part as well of the myth essential part as well of the myth essential part as well of the myth making because this was essentially one making because this was essentially one making because this was essentially one man against two armies well and also man against two armies well and also man against two armies well and also these this myth that you see in fact in these this myth that you see in fact in these this myth that you see in fact in the in the movie where he supposedly the in the movie where he supposedly the in the movie where he supposedly fired the cannonballs onto the lake and fired the cannonballs onto the lake and fired the cannonballs onto the lake and the and the Russians and Austrians who the and the and the Russians and Austrians who the and the and the Russians and Austrians who are marching or fall through the holes are marching or fall through the holes are marching or fall through the holes in the lake and and drown and everything in the lake and and drown and everything in the lake and and drown and everything they've they've dredged those legs there they've they've dredged those legs there they've they've dredged those legs there are a couple of cannons there are a few are a couple of cannons there are a few are a couple of cannons there are a few breastplates you know there's the odd breastplates you know there's the odd breastplates you know there's the odd Lance there um but um but nothing Lance there um but um but nothing Lance there um but um but nothing significant that was not how he won significant that was not how he won significant that was not how he won oustlets he won oustlets not by some oustlets he won oustlets not by some oustlets he won oustlets not by some kind of clever trick but by a series of kind of clever trick but by a series of kind of clever trick but by a series of brilliantly coordinated um attacks and brilliantly coordinated um attacks and brilliantly coordinated um attacks and the way he was able to do that was the way he was able to do that was the way he was able to do that was through the use of this thing the core through the use of this thing the core through the use of this thing the core system so each core would have its own system so each core would have its own system so each core would have its own artillery uh Cavalry and um infantry but also its own staff its own supplies its own medical it was an essentially a mini army and each of them were or were commanded by Marshals and he had created this thing maybe this is a good time to talk about the Marshall because um it had been created the previous um May in May 1804 um this idea of he appointed 18 of his best generals both to be they were called Marshals the history of the the Marshall it goes back to the 13th century in France but a few of them have been guillotined and and there weren't any by 1804 he um he announced this new rank of Marshall and gave it to his 14 um uh top generals in the field and an extra four senatorial Marshals who were heroes of France and over the next um 11 years up until waterloo he appointed another um another eight so you get up to - 26 marshals in all. - Mm-hmm. And, uh, and so. The way in which he did that was partly because they were the best soldiers, but also partly because he wanted to sort of set up a new meritocratic aristocracy. That which is fascinating, particularly because the marshals, they were so different in their characters. Berthier was incredibly loyal, essentially a right hand man. And there were others that proved to be a little bit more disloyal. Yes, that's right. And actually people who had opposed the coup, the Brumaire coup, like Marshal Bernadotte and Marshal Jourdain and Marshal Augereau, these people actually were hardline Jacobins. But he appointed them because he needed to have people from right the way across the political spectrum. He also needed to have people from the army of Italy, as well as the army of Germany, and various other previous French Revolutionary armies, so it didn't seem that he was favoritizing. He, as we mentioned earlier, had people who came from incredibly lowly backgrounds. Then there were some aristocrats like Davout and Berthier. And so, with educational qualifications, there's everything from Marshal Ney, who was virtually illiterate, hardly went to school at all, to some really highly intelligent people who were very good writers, like Marmont and Davout, and so you have this really broad spectrum. But they did have, they all have one thing in common, which was extraordinary, raw courage. The 26 of them, added together, suffered no fewer than 94 wounds in their lives. They averaged 3.6 wounds per marshal, and five of them weren't wounded. They emerged unscathed. So you can imagine, some people you had Lannes, he was wounded 11 times, Grouchy, 14 times, and Marshal Nicolas Oudinot was married, no, sorry, married, was wounded no fewer than 32 times. He was nicknamed "The Seer." Interesting Freudian slip there, Andrew. Wounded and married. Yes, apologies for that. But he, isn't it amazing to think that one person, there were bayonet thrusts, there were, he was hit by, ricochet and cannibal, cannibal, he was very nearly killed on any number of occasions by sword thrusts and by bullet wounds and everything. He had so many holes in his body that his nickname was "The Sieve." Wow. But what's really interesting is how he inspired that devotion and loyalty, yet at the same time there was, I mean, this is modern vocabulary, but there was a toxic element to it, wasn't there? Yes, that's right. Because, I mean, he was attempting to create a band of brothers, but he wound up really creating a nest of vipers, because what really happened was that because they all got the same, same martial arts, the same rank, they were desperate to outdo each other. The sense of competitiveness between them absolutely was to wreck campaigns. There were four occasions when they drew swords on one another or they wanted to fight duels again. against one another they the hatreds between them were extraordinary there were some friendships um marshall victor and salt uh had mistresses who were sisters and that helped them get on with one another could have gone either way that one but it was a um it was something that he he soon found that this lust for glory and also having having the same um rank uh was um to prove disastrous and would you say that's a failure of leadership on napoleon's part failure to contain that to channel it correctly to organize that in such a way that it was towards the common good as as he saw it rather than the internal fighting or do you think that was just the inevitable reality um i think it has to be put ultimately down to to him you know he's the person who created marshall it and who tried to keep these guys in order he he deliberately encouraged competition between them he was to say after a treaty of tilsits which ended the war of the fourth coalition in 1807 when he was negotiating with the czar alexander the first he said um i uh i i never let what my my generals know what i'm thinking and i encourage them to uh perform one another and and i therefore can sort of stay above it and and see what uh what they're up to and um and so that was a deliberate attempt to um to encourage what to foster what was ultimately to be a unhealthy uh form of and it's really interesting you mentioned the fourth coalition now i mean after australis is there no one you know the russian emperor and others in europe we go no we've had our asses handed to us like maybe we should just let this guy crack on with it yeah you'd have thought wouldn't you yeah but the people who don't do that are the prussians who in um in the autumn of um 1806 i.e less than a year after australis they think that they can take on france um on their own um they they do get support from the uh from the russians later on but they reckon that uh that their army which of course was um trained under frederick the great but nevertheless frederick the great was was long dead by then and they're well drilled and all that but they're a small country they're a small country and what they don't have is um is universal conscription and the french of course since 1792 when they brought in universal conscription have much much larger armies plus you know they should have had a look and see what napoleon had done as you say not just at auslitz but but in earlier campaigns in the marengo campaign in the italian campaign and so on and um and they didn't they were they were mad really to have started that war and uh within two weeks of the war being fought and napoleon was in berlin and why do why would look prussia is militaristic culturally frederick the gray has created this uh well-disciplined army that outperforms others etc why why are you invading like what are they trying to achieve um they are trying to uh essentially um stay as the um as the most important power in central europe um they they recognize austria has been um been defeated badly uh and they want to be um as important as as france essentially which um which isn't going to happen uh under under napoleon at least not under napoleon at this stage when he is he's riding high and he's got this incredibly talented bunch of marshals who did very well and they hadn't fallen out by the time of the of the auslitz campaign couple of them had nay and murat had a shouting match but other than that they were working very well together the core system was working very well so um you know the prussians were sort of mad to have declared war and when they did soon after doing that and napoleon was expecting them to and his were telling him this was about to happen it was actually the queen of prussia who who um is thought to have put pressure on her husband to have to have started this war um she hated um napoleon and uh and that's a good reason and you get this extraordinary um double battle on the 14th of october 1806 um called jena auerstadt and at jena the um the um napoleon and nay and various other marshals um fight against what they think is the main prussian army but actually the main prussian army is just the rear guard the main prussian army is eight miles away um and uh and that is being taken on by marshall davu it's davu's greatest victory he somehow fights a force that's over twice his size and he manages a double envelopment wow crushes it and um and when um when napoleon finds out so he makes devu a prince and and and appreciates that this is incredible at that point the whole of the fresh prussia of the french army then just sweep across prussia led by mura and the cavalry and mura is the finest cavalryman of the era and and followed up by marshall lan and uh and marshall bernadotte and they capture city after city after city and they capture entire garrisons and some cities they capture cities after cities and they capture they capture 60 cannon and and they push the um the prussians right the way up to the baltic sea um which is in in fact uh kaliningrad now you know russian territory isn't it and uh and that's when the prussians and russians come together to fight these two massive battles at ilau and friedland in uh in mid-1800s the fact you're listening to an in-depth discussion like this one tells us you're exactly the kind of listener who'd enjoy a show built entirely around that level of detail that is exactly the audience a show called unpacking israeli history is built for it's hosted by dr noam weissman an educator who spent his entire career studying and teaching Israeli history. Each episode walks through the people, events, and decisions that shaped modern Israel from the earliest roots of Zionism through to today. What makes it work is that Weissman isn't trying to tell you what to think. He digs into where the narratives actually differ, and he brings on guests who don't all agree with each other or with him, from journalist Haviv Rettig-Gue to Palestinian activist Ahmed Fouad al-Khatib. We all know podcasts can go either way. This one held our attention. It doesn't rush the story to get to a neat conclusion, and that's rarer than it should be. Search "Unpacking Israeli History" on Spotify, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts, or click the link in the description to start listening. And by the way, before we get into that, the one thing I thought it'd be worth coming back to your point about courage and the wounds that so many of these marshals have suffered. Is this because they're all meritocratically created, and therefore, in order to become a marshal, you've had to have fought for 10, 15, 20 years in lower ranks, and or is it also because as marshals, they are sometimes leading from the front and still taking wounds while in these high positions? Very much both of those. Exactly that. So, yes, they've been fighting, most of them, since 1792. They have, therefore, had to come up the ranks, often by sheer bravery. Lan, who is wounded 11 times, is at the forefront all the time of his grenadiers. In the battle of, in the many battles, 14 major battles in the Italian campaign. And then he's wounded very badly also in Egypt. But they have to be at the front, because in order to be able to spot what is going on, it's so different from the First World War, where a general can sit in a chateau five miles behind the front. They absolutely have to be there, because they need to work out the timings of everything that they're doing. And also, of course, they're getting orders sent by Aide-de-camp on horseback from Napoleon, and they have to carry out his orders as well. So it's not surprising that quite so many of them get hit by shot and shell, and Lan loses his life when his kneecaps are taken off by a cannonball at the Battle of Aspern, and he, and he dies of gangrene. Yeah. And so they've got the Prussians and the Russians pushed up against the Baltic Sea. Yeah. Well, how do those battles go? He wins both of them. He's about to lose the Battle of Eilau when he unleashes Murat, who makes the largest cavalry charge in history. I think it still is the largest cavalry charge in history. 16,000 is the maximum number. Some people, some historians argue it's a bit less than that, but it's a huge number, and certainly the biggest one of the Napoleonic Wars. And he basically just drives them through the centre of the Russo-Prussian army. And once they punch through the centre, they're able basically to split the armies in two. And so he wins that battle. Huge losses on both sides, but much bigger losses on the Russo-Prussian side. And then there's the Battle of Friedland a little bit later, which is, which is a, another huge victory where they managed to trap the Russians in a, in a town, town of Friedland, which has the River Alla going behind it. And there are only two bridges to get over. And once they force them into, into the town, the, the enemy can't get over the bridge in, bridges in time. And they're, they're massacred and lots of them surrender. So, so the, the war ends with these two big victories and Napoleon then imposes a peace in which he essentially splits up Europe between Russia and France at the Treaty of Tilsit, which is negotiated on a barge, a sort of, no, it was a raft in the middle of the, of the River Neman. So wonderful. He's doing great. Yeah. It's sort of slightly begun to unravel already because in the December of 1806, when he's still in Berlin, he passes what's called the Berlin decrees, which are the start of the continental system, which is a massive protectionist, um, measure that, uh, is intended to cover the whole of Europe and which is intended to force Britain to the negotiating table because no merchant in Europe is allowed to trade with, um, with Britain. And that's what he also gets Tsar Alexander the first to agree to it, uh, in the Treaty of Tilsit. So actually protectionism is, is the major thing I think that, that brings him down because it's, in order to impose the continental system that he goes to war against Portugal, which is a longstanding ally of, of, uh, Britain and, um, ignored the continental system. In 1807, and then ultimately against Russia, which, um, turns against the continental system in 1811, which leads to his, uh, his catastrophe of 1812. Before we get onto that, what was one of the signs that he was, that his grip was starting to lessen and weaken is that the fact that even though the French won significant battles, they were starting to, they were starting to get more and more casualties inflicted upon them. Especially. Especially at Ai Lao. Um, that's, uh, that was really heavy. What happened was that Augereau, uh, Marshal Augereau, who's an amazing character, and we must mention, talk about him at some stage. He, um, his, his seventh corps, um, was ordered to attack the, uh, the Russians. It, there was a blizzard and, uh, the blizzard came down. He carried on marching and it turned out that he marched straight into the guns of the Russian artillery. Right. And the first they knew about it was as the snow was, was swirling around them, they suddenly saw the flashes of the Russian guns. Do you remember that bit in Master and Commander at the beginning of the movie, uh, the Russell Crowe movie, Master and Commander, where, where they could, they can suddenly see the flashes in the mist and then they start, exactly like that. And it, and it wiped out seventh corps. Um, so, you know, Napoleon couldn't, um, couldn't sustain that kind of series of, of losses forever, especially if he's fighting the whole of Europe. So at that point, why was it that he decided to invade Russia? Um, well, he was, um, he was forced to in a way, but if he wanted to defend the continental system, instead of doing what, uh, what we now, I think, uh, especially people from the kind of, um, political background that, uh, we've got, um, we'd have, um, allowed free markets to deal with. Whether or not, uh, um, you wanted to trade with whoever, that would have actually been the way to have gone about it. Um, but he, uh, instead imposed what was called Colbertian economics, which was all about closing down free markets and free enterprise as much as possible. And so when the Russians in 1811 decided that they were going to resume trade with Britain because they really needed to, um, he invaded Russia to try and force them back into the continental system. And of course, by then also he had invaded Portugal and then went on also to invade Spain, even though Spain wasn't in the, uh, wasn't threatening the continental system. Uh, and so he had a war on two fronts. He had a massive war in which he was to lose a quarter of a million men in the peninsula war in, uh, Spain and Portugal. And he lost half a million men in, in Russia in 1812. And by the way, just to jump in, uh, from what I understand, the Spanish and Portuguese campaign was largely paid. So brutal and painful and so many losses because of the British involvement. No, no, no, no. The actual, um, the Portuguese and Spanish, um, the more, a good deal of work's been, been done on this historically and your bad assumption was true until, um, believed widely, including by me, I hasten to add until 10 years ago or so, but now a lot of work's been done on quite the number of Frenchmen killed by Spanish regular troops, but also partisans and what the British did. It was constantly to allow the, um, the Spanish and Portuguese to stay in the war. There was no point at which they, they sort of gave up because, um, because the Duke of Wellington in, um, in Spain was constantly able to, um, to attack the, attack the French and it was very good for morale and so on. But actually, if you look at each individual Frenchman who dies, the Spanish and Portuguese kill more than we do. And it's interesting that we talk about Wellington. Because this was obviously the first time these two great military minds encountered each other. Well, no, they didn't. I mean, they, they encountered each other in a strategic sense in that they knew what, what the other was doing, but the only time they actually faced each other across the battlefield was at Waterloo. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, because Napoleon didn't spend enough time in Spain. He went over just for three months in, uh, 1808, 1809, um, just January 1809. And then he went away and fought the Austrians again. And, uh, and got married and so on and never concentrated on what he should have done, which was to close down the, the Peninsular War. Um, and, uh, so. So he left it up to his marshals, who, as I mentioned earlier, all hated each other and refused to help each other. And Masséna had to sack Ney. Marmont didn't help Masséna. Their sorts didn't help anybody. He just stayed in Andalusia and refused to help anybody. There were massive. There were 18 marshals who served in Spain and Portugal, and only one of them, Suchet, emerges with any credit. So at this point, the marshals had. It had worked, and it had worked spectacularly well in Austerlitz, but we see now the real fractures starting to appear and the various personalities start to fragment. Particularly in Spain, where they all fell out with one another, but also in Russia, because although it went well at the beginning, by the time they got to Moscow and then started to retreat from Moscow and then returned, they all argued about which route to take back. And viciously, you know, there's one moment where Davout and Murat have to be physically restrained from fighting one another over this. So. And one can understand, you know, the passions are high, the testosterone's running, it's matters of life and death. And so, of course, they really. And they deeply believed their own strategic thinking. So you can understand why there were these clashes. But Napoleon, all too late, ever steps in to try and stop it from happening. And in Spain, he never appoints somebody who is sort of top marshal. And that's a disaster for him. But it's also, as well, and it's a really powerful moment, it's literally the last line in the book where you basically say he gave them everything except the one thing they craved, which was respect. Yes, his respect they wanted. But instead, he was incredibly transactional with them. He gave them princedoms and two of them became kings. He gave them huge amounts of just sheer cash. They also got beautiful estates in the country. They got these wonderful Parisian townhouses. But they wanted more than that. They wanted to feel that he admired them. And instead, he just slapped them down the entire time, the letters. He wrote. He wrote 40,497 letters that are published in the Correspondence volumes. And they are full of him slapping them down, saying, I'm disappointed, I'm disenchanted, you've failed, you're useless. You know, I mean, he was incredibly. Although he was a wonderful man-manager when it comes to his soldiers, he was a terrible one when it came to the leadership techniques that he used to his marshals. And why? I mean, partly because when things had started to go wrong, he was genuinely extremely irritated by any reverse. But he was also such a massive micromanager and essentially a control freak that he would exaggerate things that were going wrong. And he tried to involve himself into the minutiae of absolutely every decision. And this meant that. And this meant that the marshals weren't able to use their own initiatives. And very often, there were some very good marshals. Davout, Masséna were first-class strategists. But they were being deluged all the time with blizzards of letters from Napoleon telling them even things that they really knew about, like how fast men should march to get from A to B and so on. And there were four marshals who were actually officers in the army before Napoleon. And Napoleon was born. And he was telling them where bread kilns should be made and how tents should be put up and things like that. So he didn't really. Even though he had the system of meritocracy which promoted the best, he nonetheless was so convinced of his own greatness that he couldn't let them make some of the decisions at a lower level. Exactly. And this was all the more weird when it came to Spain because in Spain, you have this situation where he can't get a message to them and back for sometimes three months. Because the partisans would intercept the aide-de-camp, you had to send these messages with huge amounts of troops if they're going to get through to Paris. And it takes weeks and weeks. And then to come back also takes weeks and weeks. So he really needed a man on the spot and never appointed one. And so that was a major failure. Why didn't he? Was he just. He believed in the system so much because. Because it had been so successful? At one point, he. Well, first of all, it is he believed in himself so much and thought that he would be more likely to be right even though it was a long time behind the times, as it were, with regard to how long messages got there. The other thing was a straightforward political one. He didn't want to have another general who was in charge of a quarter of a million of his men. And he made that clear. He didn't want to give any marshal that kind of power. And was he right to worry about that? Well, he'd himself taken power in a military coup. So that was the only way that he was likely to be overthrown. But were there hatching plots against him until, you know, before the very late stages? Were his marshals genuinely thinking, oh, I'll get a quarter million troops and then I can be Napoleon? Or were they loyal? Loyal to him. One of them was Bernadotte was always thinking about how he could become king or emperor of France. And some of them, especially Augereau, after the loss of his division, he turned against Napoleon, wasn't helpful to Napoleon pretty much at all after that. And then Marmont surrendered Paris in 1804, even though he was Napoleon's closest friend from school. And that was particularly painful for Napoleon. And Murat, after the retreat from Moscow, joined the Allies and betrayed him completely. And even though he was married to Napoleon's sister, in fact, she, Caroline, was the person who was behind this and thought that they needed to jump ship in order to stay king and queen of Naples. So as things started to go wrong, a lot of the marshals started to jump ship. So we got in the story about as far as Russia. It invades Russia. Initially, it's going well. And then the famous General Winter comes into effect. And as someone who is from Russia, it always surprises me reading history books. And this may be a very superficial reading of it, but, you know, these great military commanders don't realize there's winter in Russia and it's quite bad. Is that actually what happens or is it more complicated than that? It's a bit more complicated than that. But overall, you know, Napoleon, he owned almanacs, which said what the winter was like in Russia. And when the snow started to fall, he'd studied Voltaire's history of the campaigns of Charles the 12th of Sweden in Russia and the catastrophe at Poltava. So, yeah, he knew that this was going to happen. And in fact, he did plan to be able to get back to Smolensk in less time than it had taken him to get from Smolensk to Moscow. But on the 25th of October, 1812, at Malayaro Slavets, which is about 75 miles southwest of Moscow, he suffered a reverse, or at least his nephew suffered a reverse. And then he took the wrong sort of dog, long dog leg back via the battlefield of Borodino. And he did this because he was advised to by some of his marshals. It's, you know, it's virtually the only time that he actually takes his marshals' advice. And it turns out to be catastrophic advice because that's when the blizzards hit. And it's also, we talk about a Russian winter, but what we also need to talk about is a Russian summer and the effect it has on troops and disease. So let's discuss that. Yes, well, typhus in particular hit the 100,000 strong central thrusting force of the French army and killed tens of thousands. Actually, it's interesting. Quite recently, there's been a mass grave that's been found in Vilnius. And they've done a lot of testing of the bones of the soldiers in that grave. And they've discovered 14 different viruses and illnesses and sort of diseases, including typhus, that can kill people. So it's a, you know, the army was horribly, and these are people going into Russia rather than coming out. You know, once you've, once you're coming out, then Marshal Ney, who's in charge of the rear guard, who's nicknamed the bravest of the brave, is tremendously, extraordinarily brave. But he's unable, really, to save many more than a few thousand. And in all, of the 615,000 that go into Russia, only 93,000 come back. And that really is the beginning of the end, isn't it? That's it. That's it. I mean, it's not it. because you still need the battle of. of leipzig in 1813 which is also a huge catastrophe for him when a bridge explodes and marshall poniatowski is drowned crossing over the river marshall mcdonald managed does manage to get over but um it's uh that's that's really the um it's pretty much all over although he does fight a very successful series of battles in 1814 and the 1814 campaign what's called the uh the six days fighting he wins five battles in six days and there are many scholars actually who think that those are his greatest achievements militarily as good as as italy yeah yeah and why is that um because he's going back to the um original uh things really uh speed um strategy of the central position uh he's he's got quite small forces uh who are um who are winning um very good tactical victories day after day and of course he's fighting in france which is uh which gives him some added sort of open team uh turf advantage so he just coming back to the the the chronological side of this andrew so he he come he he flees russia effectively yeah with a fraction of the men that he entered it with what happens from there well he then goes all the way back to paris and he leaves mura in charge of the army and mura doesn't want to be there because he wants to go back to naples to try and protect his kingdom and so he hands over and bethier is is running the army anyway along with davu um and um and so together they try and turn the army into something worthwhile but the but the russians are coming and uh and then at the key moment in uh in december 1812 the prussians change sides uh and then halfway through the next year the austrians change sides so suddenly these marshals who are um who are far too far east have to um bring themselves would get themselves back sometimes they leave um people in uh important places like dresden and hamburg but otherwise they um they they pull back for the the great sort of um reckoning in 1842 and it's 1814 what year does he abdicate or was he in in april 1840 in april 1840 as the result of the marshals coming together at fontainebleau and and insisting on it because by that stage marmont has surrendered paris at the end of march 1814 and the decision you've got to make the decision at fontainebleau his uh his palace there his hunting lodge um do you try to recapture paris and the men are all up for it the the guard the uh the ordinary squad is these these guys are up for the fight the marshals by that stage are not they've um they've seen the size of the allied armies that are coming they're sick of war by then actually a lot of them anyway they want to go back to their estates and their families they haven't seen their families for many months years in a couple of cases and um they've gone through the 1812 campaign you know we've got a lot of which has seen frostbite and cannibalism and appalling uh losses and drownings and so on and they just by that stage they they they want peace and they and they impose it on um on napoleon now there's a big historical debate and i come down very strongly on one side where about quite how rude people like ney and lugino and others were to napoleon's face i don't believe they were they treated it like a council of war but nonetheless there was there was no way out for napoleon by then and this is where it gets really really interesting because the fact that he was emperor kind of saved his bacon a little bit didn't it yes because he went off to the isle of elba um rather than he was in charge of elba he was he was the sovereign prince of elba and he kept the title emperor and um he wasn't just sort of you know imprisoned because the reason was is because even because he crowned himself as emperor he was treated like royalty whereas if he wasn't the punishment would have been somewhat harsher wouldn't it also um he did have the loyalty of the soldiers and they didn't want um you know any more any more fighting and if he called upon them too they probably would have he just wouldn't have had his marshals with him and the other reason of course is that in the meantime in 1810 he married the daughter of the king of austria and um and so in that sense he was he was definitely royal by by marriage um if not obviously by birth and so killing him or executing him would have been out of the question at this point yes uh-huh yeah so he gets exiled to elba there's one point as well because uh the brit because everybody agreed actually that this was a great idea apart from the brits who are like um well they had um they had the the frigates that would um keep an eye on him in in elba and they recognized that it was quite a difficult thing to do it wasn't helped by the fact that the that the british um governor kept going off to uh florence um to visit his um his eye doctor and his mistress in that order you want to make sure you can see the mistresses play a heavy role in all of this we're talking about the french well and the british but he so he was then on elba and he he actually when he was emperor of elba which is a grandiose title but made a pretty good fist of it didn't he for a while oh yeah if you go to visit elba now you can see the fountains that he built and uh he organized street lamps and uh and new um forms of um of uh mining and things like that no he was i mean this is what he did when he when he went to a city he imposed enlightenment ideas and reforms but elbert turned out to be a little bit too small for his ambition yes yes and he was he was there 10 months and he escaped um and he uh and unfortunately over the next uh next year or so it was well much less than that really he landed on the first of march and the battle of waterloo was on the 18th of june so in that period a a huge um tens of thousands of people were to be killed and uh wounded well so he comes back in march yeah must as an army must as an army yes absolutely he lands with only 300 men by the time he gets to paris um marshal massena has essentially let him get away marshal nay has said uh that he will bring napoleon has told king louis the 18th that he will bring um napoleon back in an iron cage and then goes off and changes sides and actually joins napoleon marshal salt who's the minister of war also changes sides and why do they do this android seeing their old leader back again bring the band back together there's a there's an element of the of the blues brothers yeah yeah but much more um more seriously uh the bourbons have even in those short um 10 months managed to uh irritate everybody so you've brought back the monarchy the monarchy is just as useless as it was before yes everyone realizes it's a failed experiment let's give napoleon another go yes and also um the the army is all on uh half pay which they don't like the return of napoleon means that they're going to be paid properly um you have people like um davu who have never taken an oath of allegiance to the bourbons and and weren't about to so he's absolutely fine to fight back um and uh yeah so there's this but the interesting thing is that of the 26 marshals um by the time he lands in france um there are three of them had died lan who i mentioned earlier his great friend bessier took a cannibal to the chest in 1813 and poniatowski uh drowned in the battle of leipzig um and then a couple of weeks later berthier dies on the 1st of june um we don't know why as a mystery he either fell from the window or he jumped from the window or he was pushed from the window i i i come up sounds like modern russia yeah yeah well the russians were actually marching through the town at the time and so would it have been so difficult for uh the russian commanders to think we don't want bethier at the battlefield of um of known as walt lou but we don't want berthier helping napoleon again let's just send a squad round to chuck him out the window and this is where we come to sir arthur wellesley the duke of wellington yeah and how does he compare with napoleon in terms of expertise brilliance genius are they equally matched is one better than the other um well on the day of walk lou wellington is is his best um self and he out maneuvers out generals napoleon but but but wellington hasn't lost a battle in his life he's never lost a gun even i mean he's had to retreat from burgos but otherwise he has a completely unblemished record when it comes to fighting battles uh some have been very heavy he's lost a lot of men like at talavera but otherwise i mean he is a proper military genius and so is napoleon but napoleon's fought whereas wellington's sort of 35 it depends what how you define a battle obviously but 35 engagements significant engagements uh napoleon's fought 60 um and by the end of it he had won 47 drawn six and lost six and there was a fascinating part of this story where wasn't didn't wellington have the chance to get rid of napoleon right at the very beginning of the battle but thought it was ungentleman this is a great story yeah yes he um uh one of his artillery commanders saw napoleon on the other side of the uh of the battlefield and it's quite easy to see because of distinctive hat and the gray coat and also the fact that he's followed by these marshals and marshals wear the most extraordinary uniforms you know fantastic uh plumes in their hats and enormous brocaded collars and gold all over them and everything like that and uh and he's also followed by aide-de-camp other members of the uh of the staff and so the artilleryman said you know shall we take a pot shot at napoleon you know and um and wellington wouldn't have it he he said that he's supposed to have said at least that uh the gentlemen do not take pot shots at one another how things have changed uh in in more ways than just war but andrew he's got he's mustered the army in march i just want to understand how we get towards louisville yeah is the reaction to him coming back to france okay we've got to deal with this guy now from the from the um from the coalition yeah yes i mean it's very fortunate for them that they are in um in vienna um at the congress of vienna or or talking to one another so they're trying to decide the the world order world order post um post napoleon and then they all hear on the 6th of march that he's uh that he's back on the 13th of march they declare the war on the 6th of march that he's back on the 13th of march they declare the war on the 6th of march they declare him an outlaw and um and they organize huge armies 350 000 russians 150 000 austrians and then there are this uh this um anglo-prussian um army up in the uh up in the netherlands so um so again sticking to his um strategy of the central position um napoleon decides in early june to go north and to strike at the hinge between the prussian army and the what's called the anglo-allied army because there are lots of as well as the british army obviously there are lots of other soldiers german belgian dutch and so on and that's how the battle of waterloo happens yes and and how does it go well i see it of course through the eyes of the marshals because he's come back he only has six marshals declare for him um and he leaves davu perhaps his greatest soldier um and and the man who had done the double envelopment at um at auerstadt leaves him in paris which is an insane mistake you need to have your best men on the field with you uh he gave some very important jobs in paris governor of paris and uh minister of war head of the national guard and so on but he should have had he should have been on the battlefield he takes with him marshal ney um who he only warns uh that they're going on campaign the day before they that the army actually leaves and he also takes marshal salt who hadn't been a chief of staff for 15 years uh since the siege of january in 1800 but it makes him chief of staff which he shouldn't have been because he was actually a very good defensive general against um against wellington in the peninsular war latter stages suchet who's another very good soldier uh he leaves down in the middle of france then he was going to have moncy in charge of his imperial guard but moncy got skyattica the day before and so wasn't able to to be at the battle so one of the great questions actually that i ask in this book is how is it that of the 26 marshals he only actually enters the battle of with two ney and salt who are both in the wrong positions and they hate each other and the other marshal who he has created since he landed from elba marshal grushi he sent off um to uh uh after a victory two days before walkloo sent off with 33 000 men and 93 guns that could have made all the difference at the battle of blue and um and grushi wasn't able to get back in time for the for the battle so do you really think that the reason he loses waterloo is that is i think it's i think the reason he loses waterloo is that is i think the reason he loses waterloo is that is i think the the lack of marshals is a serious um the lack of marshals is a serious um the lack of marshals is a serious um problem for the the fact you're problem for the the fact you're problem for the the fact you're listening to an in-depth discussion like listening to an in-depth discussion like listening to an in-depth discussion like this one tells us you're exactly the this one tells us you're exactly the this one tells us you're exactly the kind of listener who'd enjoy a show kind of listener who'd enjoy a show kind of listener who'd enjoy a show built entirely around that level of built entirely around that level of built entirely around that level of detail that is exactly the audience a detail that is exactly the audience a detail that is exactly the audience a show called unpacking israeli history is What makes it work is that Weissman isn't trying to tell you what to think. He digs into where the narratives actually differ. And he brings on guests who don't all agree with each other or with him. From journalist Haviv Retik-Gur to Palestinian activist Ahmed Fouad Al-Khatib. It doesn't rush the story to get to a neat conclusion. And that's rarer than it should be. Search Unpacking Israeli History on Spotify, YouTube or Apple Podcasts or click the link in the description to start listening. Because there's a lot of people, Andrew, who think, you know, obviously the Battle of the Waterloo was the end of Napoleon. But if it hadn't been Waterloo, it would have been another battle. Such were the French outnumbered. Exactly. Well, as I mentioned, if you add the 150,000 Austrians and the 350 Russians, you've got half a million men who are marching. So even if Napoleon had won Waterloo, he'd have found it impossible, I think, to have defended Paris. And from there, he gets exiled to St. Helena, where he meets his. Well, kind of very peaceful end, right? Not that peaceful in that he had cancer. He had very bad cancer. So it was painful, painful for him. But he doesn't sort of threaten the peace of Europe between 1815 when he lands on St. Helena and 1821 when he dies. Why don't they just lop his head off the second time? Because at this point, you must be thinking, come on, this guy's gone too far now. Um. LAUGHTER Well. Very Russian question on me, I appreciate it. First of all, he surrendered. And so there's that. Secondly, the Prussians could. They possibly would have shot him. But he very sensibly surrendered to the British, who considered that that was a bad idea. There were political reasons why not to, in that it would have probably started civil war, amongst Frenchmen. As it was, the Marshal Ney was shot by the Bourbons. Marshal Murat was shot by the Neapolitans. Marshal Brune was ripped to shreds by a royalist crowd in Avignon. And years later, Marshal Mortier was assassinated in the streets of Paris. So you do have a strong sense, I think, that the bloodshed should end and killing Napoleon. Napoleon wouldn't have done that. And to wrap it up, what is the legacy of Napoleon? Because some people say, well, a lot of his vision and his ideas were inspirational in creating the European Union. There's a left-wing version in France of people, how they look at Napoleon. There's a right-wing version. How do you see this man and his legacy? I think he was very important for a lot of the aspects of modern France that are positive. I'm not including the European Union in that, by the way. The battles and the wars and the campaigns, which is ultimately the reason that we think of him as a sort of conqueror, actually are not the most important things, ultimately, about Napoleon. What he did was to expand the Enlightenment into Prussia and Poland and Italy and so on. And the Code Napoleon, for example, was still in effect in the Rhineland in 1900. And so. Yes, I think one sees his educational reforms, the Lycée, the Sorbonne, and so on, the people still crossing the bridges that he built over the Seine. I think these are the sort of blocks of granite that have survived of Napoleon's legacy. Because it's very interesting, because when we were talking, when I was taught about Napoleon, from the way that I was taught, it was like, well, you know, he had his moment, but then it all ended in failure. But reading your book, doing the research for the interview, I mean, this was a man who changed history, particularly European history. And therefore can't be seen as a proto-Hitler figure. You know, it's completely ridiculous. I think largely that was because a lot of the British historians of the previous generation had grown up during the Second World War and were pretty obsessed with Hitler. And wanted to sort of look back in history and try and find Hitler equivalents. Napoleon was emphatically not one of them. Well, I actually came here thinking that you might have a grudging admiration, but I don't think it's that grudging in your case. I do think you respect Napoleon. I do, but unfortunately with this Napoleon is Marshall's book, I have seen a side of him, which is the micromanager, the controller. Wolf-Rieg, the person who denounces his Marshalls. He doesn't show what. Ten years ago when I wrote my Napoleon biography, I thought of his compartmentalization of his brain as being one of the best things about him. But now I actually see, and especially as I've been able to read all of the letters that have been published by the Fondation Napoleon that weren't there for my original book, I now see. Much more nuanced, but sort of negative side of him, where he wasn't good at inspiring and leading his top team. He was very, very good all the time, right to the end. Do you remember? The men were willing to march on Paris in 1814. But when it came to his top team, he wasn't very good at mobilizing his lieutenants. Lord Andrew Roberts, what a pleasure it's been to have you back. I hope everybody gets Napoleon and his Marshalls, Victory, Rivalry and Betrayal. Great title. We're going to head over to triggerpod.co.uk where our supporters are going to ask you a few of their questions. Thank you again for coming on. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it, Konstantin and Francis. France seems to have difficulty maintaining any form of democratic government for a long time. Are they due for another change in their form of government in light of the rise of populist dissent? For more UN videos visit: www.un.org/webcast