Every Key Moment From the Lindsay Clancy Trial, Blake Lively's Final Humiliation, and Brian Entin's Dispatch From Clancy Courtroom | Ep. 1386

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111, every weekday at noon east. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Wednesday. Coming up later, got some thoughts on Melissa Gilbert trying to rush into the Hayden-Penetier story with her torch, talking about how we really need to protect young women in Hollywood. Tell it to your pervert husband. This is unbelievable. This is like a self, this is an attempt to like rehabilitate herself and her reputation because she was on the phone with the police when they were laying out what the allegations were against her husband. This is in a separate case, accusing him of being a possible pedophile. She knew all about it, and yet she ran out to the public airwaves and tried to cloak herself in glory as somebody who stands up for children under threat in Hollywood. Now she's doing it again. Since that moment, we've had multiple women come forward and accuse her husband of me too-ing them when they were very young and in his trailer or at his theater, over and over and over. And now she wants to be the one to step in and say, I will lead it. I will lead the turnaround in Hollywood as we now protect. young women in Hollywood. Please sit this one out. No one needs you, Melissa Gilbert. Why don't you worry about your own family's problems? All right, we'll get to her in the next hour. Plus, we will also be joined by Brian Enten of News Nation, who will be giving us the latest on what's happening in court today when it comes to this Lindsay Clancy trial. We are still a couple months out, but the midterms are fast approaching. And make no mistake, if the house flips, it's a big deal for the economy. That uncertainty is one of the reasons to consider diversifying now with gold from Birch Gold Group. In the three months leading up to the 2024 presidential election, the price of gold jumped over 12%. Why? It's a hedge against uncertainty. If you do not own gold, consider talking with Birch Gold. They will discuss your goals and explain how precious metals can fit into your savings. They could even help you convert an existing IRA or 401k into an IRA in gold. For no additional money out of pocket. Text the letters MK to the number 989898 and get a free info kit and some solid information. The midterms will be here before you know it. Don't wait. Text MK to 989898 now. I wanted to take the first hour today to look at what has happened during this case, because I think there are a lot of people who have very strong feelings about it and who are wondering why it's dominating the national conversation and who don't quite know what to make of it. Because you've got two sides that are diametrically opposed on what level of culpability should be handed down to this woman, criminally speaking, legally speaking, who killed all three of her children. And it is complicated. It is complicated. I mean, let me start with this. Jeffrey Dahmer murdered many people, young boys and men. And viewer can cannibalize them. Was it an extremely sick, psychotic person who was torturing people before he killed them? I'm not going to get into the details because it's too dark. But suffice it to say, he tried to zombify them while they were still alive so they could stay with him forever and then would cannibalize them after killing them. This is a seriously, seriously effed up person. He would ever meet the definition of legally insane. It should be somebody like a Jeffrey Dahmer. Did that happen? No. That was rejected, the insanity defense in his case. There, like here, the debate was not, will this person go free? It was, will he go to the mental facility or will he go to the lockup facility, the jail facility? And in that case, the jury said, we reject the insanity defense. We find him guilty and he went to jail. And it didn't end well for him there. A jury rejected the insanity defense of Jeffrey Dahmer. I'm sorry, but Lindsay Clancy is far closer to sane than Jeffrey Dahmer was, but she's trying the same defense. She's saying that she was so out of her mind, she wasn't in control or able to tell right from wrong when she committed this heinous crime, which was the strangulation death of her three young children, five, three, and eight months. And the whole trial has been about whether she suffered from postpartum depression and issues brought on by her attempt to use medication like SSRIs, or whether this was something much more serious, which is psychosis. Psychosis brought on by the fact that she had had a baby eight months earlier, and or brought on by the serious medications that were prescribed to her as she dealt with her depression post the birth of her third child. And there are real problems in accepting this psychosis claim that she's making. But even if you accept it, that doesn't necessarily mean we are in a place where she is unable to accept it. Unable to tell right from wrong, or have logical reasoned thinking, or plan with malice of forethought the death of her children. I personally am not convinced that she suffered from postpartum psychosis or any psychosis at all. But even if she did, I don't think that this case is one for a not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect. I don't. There's too much ordered behavior and thinking around these crimes. This is not somebody who's clearly out of her mind. I mean, Jeffrey Dahmer, again, zombifying his victims. Nope, not available to you. But Lindsay Clancy is going to be found not guilty by reason of disease or mental defect? I don't think so. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you one of the reasons why people are having such a hard time finding that mental clarity. I mean, it makes sense to me. I get it. And I, I completely give them this point that she was jumping up and down looking for help. You know, what happened to Lindsay Clancy wasn't actually her fault in the same way mental illness is really not the fault of anybody to whom it happens. You know, it can be a chemical thing. It can be a disease thing. It can be inherited or hereditary genetic in some way. So it's not her fault in that way. And so, people have empathy for her because she was, by all accounts, a loving mother prior to a few months after her third child was born. And then things started to go downhill. Her husband, Patrick, now ex-husband, testified in this trial about the fact that she had her first child, Cora, and that delivery went okay. She too was a labor and delivery nurse, just like her. Mother-in-law. And she stayed for a maternity leave and then she went back to work. And he said it was very tough on her to go back to work on the first two children. She did not go back on the third child, but that the first two were very tough on her. She had like an intense concern, worry, fear even of leaving the children. And, you know, look, I think every working mom can relate to a feeling of, you know, dread or panic or concern, at least, in going back to work. I mean, I'm as professional a woman as they come. And I definitely had serious feelings of sadness in going back to work and leaving my children. You know, they need you. And ultimately, it's why I left Fox, the main reason, which is so that I could be with them more. But it's literally like a God-given maternal instinct to want to see more of your children. And that's understandable. And if you are one of those people who's very lucky enough, like I am, to be able to see your children and help pay the bills and have a thriving career where, you know, you as a professional want to feel interested and just sort of lit up, you know, lit up by your job, by the excitement of it. You know, this job makes me feel that all the time. And my family loves that it does that for me. Then God bless you. Then you have, you know, you have it all. You do have it all. And that's how I feel. Just being able to work in news is a privilege. It's exciting. It's interesting. You meet so many fascinating characters. You help drive the narrative around the country's biggest stories. I love it all. And I've loved my colleagues in the news as well. So for me, it was a no-brainer that I really did want to come back to work. But there's nothing you love as much as your children. So for me, the perfect balance was to find a way to do both. And thank God I've been able to do that. Now, for a lot of mothers, it's not possible. And I so, so torn up about going back to the office. Like maybe some of that mental struggle was already kicking in. became like an obsessive thing for her. So she did go back after Cora, her oldest. Then she had her middle child. And he was difficult. She had a tough time with Dawson. And the birth was very difficult. I was thinking about something. In today's day and age, they shame mothers no matter what choice they make. Whatever. You have IVF. They'll shame you for that now. You have C-section. Whatever. You have an epidural. They'll shame you for that. The crazies will judge your mothering from the time of conception forward. Unfortunately, this is just how life is. But she had a difficult birth with Dawson because, according to the husband, he was- In the breech position. And it was a very difficult labor. And she had significant tearing and so on. Now, if she had just made the decision with her OB to have a C-section prior to delivering this child, there's a community of people that'd be shaming her for that. No, that's not the healthiest thing for the baby. How dare you? There's a weird collection of women that don't think your baby counts if you don't have him or her vaginally. It's very strange. What do you- I still have a child. I made a child. I carried a child. And I delivered a child. Stay the fuck out of it. Okay, so anyway, she gives birth to the second child, Dawson, and he's a difficult one, according to her account. It was a difficult birth, and he remained a difficult child. He's the one she posted on Facebook about, writing about just how tough he was. And that's tough on a young mother. He's got two kids. She's mostly the primary caregiver, although it does seem the husband was a loving father. And then- And they had a third child, which I have to say was not a good idea for this family, because she doesn't seem like she was ever really together. I mean, she just seems like she was starting to teeter in some ways, even before the birth of Callum, her third baby. And then she had him. This crime happened in January of 2023. Callum was born the previous summer. And what the experts have said in this trial is that postpartum depression, and its evil cousin, postpartum psychosis, is really not something that generally happens for eight months after. Postpartum psychosis is generally, they've testified, around a three-month thing at most. You have it in the intense hormonal experience that women have post-birth. And so that's one of the reasons people have been skeptical of her claim that she was psychotic at the time she killed the children. That, plus, in all of her interactions with the doctors and the medical profession, she never said she was hearing voices. Ever. Ever. Prior to killing her kids. She did say that she was having thoughts of harming the children, to her husband and to her mother, at least one time. That those other two have testified to. Lindsay hasn't testified. But the husband and her mother have both testified. She said that. And then when she was asked, are you, do you have a plan to harm them or yourself? She said, no. And she was asked by the husband, do you feel that you can't be alone with them? And she said, no, no. She was just voicing that she'd had a thought of hurting them. Now, look, if my spouse said I'm having thoughts of hurting the children, he would never be alone with them again until I was 100% convinced he was past all that thinking. For this family, I mean, it's tough to say. I mean, it's tough to say. Point the finger at the father because, boy, he paid the ultimate price for that mistake. But she never told anybody she was hearing voices in the way a schizophrenic does or somebody who's psychotic may. That was not told to anybody until she woke up in the hospital. And for the first time, this was a new narrative. She's chained to the bed and understands very well she's lived through her suicide attempt and she may never see the truth. The light of day again because her three children were not so lucky in living through her attempted destruction. So the best thing going for Lindsay Clancy is that she has a great lawyer. His name is Kevin Reddington. They're calling him Red. Her weird fans, her sycophant fans who somehow are mistaking this trial as like a referendum on whether postpartum depression is real. Hello, it is. Everybody knows that. You and your problems are not on trial, ladies, though you have significant ones and you really ought to look into them. This is about whether she had the capacity to understand right from wrong in the moment she killed those children. And I think the prosecution, though they are absolutely losing the likability contest, the ADA trying this case is odd and not relatable and nowhere near as likable as Kevin Reddington. Which is a factor. It's a factor for sure. The jury's bonding much more with defense counsel, in my estimation, than they are with the ADA. That's bad for the prosecution. But she is putting on, in my view, the case she needs to put on. And her last two rebuttal witnesses, though the one alienated the judge and got scolded for not answering the questions, which is not great. You don't want your witness to show to the jury that the judge doesn't, that he's on the other side of the judge. That the judge, who's like their daddy, the jurors see the judge as like their daddy, their boss, their godfather, their protector. We get to the point where that judge is telegraphing. He doesn't like this witness, this Dr. Avram Mack. That's not great. You don't love that as the prosecutor. But she called these two witnesses in rebuttal as the last thing she's got the burden of proof. And so she gets the first word and the last word. And so she got the rebuttal case and she put on her case in chief. She rested. The defense put it on its case. They rested and then she put on her rebuttal witnesses, including these two psychological experts. And I think one was a psychologist, one was a psychiatrist. And they had examined Lindsay, though not until three years after the crime. But they both examined her and they both said, this is not somebody who suffered from psychosis. And this is somebody who had ordered thinking and understood what she was doing was wrong. One addressed the doubt that she was doing wrong. And the other addressed the doubt that she was doing wrong. And the other addressed the defense's argument that this was altruistic filicide, meaning she killed the children because she did it out of, in her head, out of, out of love. She wasn't some homicidal maniac killing because killing's fun or she grew to hate the children. It was, I'm going to kill myself and they can't live without me and shouldn't live without me. So I'm going to take care of them in defense. And the, the testimony and rebuttal was, um, you know, okay. But that's, that's not somebody who that's not disordered thinking. It's, it's a belief. That's, that's a thought in your own head that your kids will be better off dead. If you're dead, that is not mental insanity. That's a, that's a deranged thought. I mean, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not something that, you know, your average person would think, but it doesn't excuse you from responsibility for the crime. And we had a, um, members only Q and a with the people who have joined our YouTube, youtube.com slash Megan Kelly members only on Monday night. It was actually very fun. We did it at nine o'clock and so many of you joined and we had great exchanges about the MK confidential series we've been doing on crimes. And we talked about this, but this would just be two weeks ago, the case of John list, who was a family annihilator in New Jersey and John list in 1971 killed his wife. He shot her in the head. He went upstairs to the third floor, killed his mother who was living with them, shot her in the face, then waited until the school day was over. And as his children started coming home, killed each of them one by one. And one of the main things that was driving him when he was killing the children was, well, now I've killed their mother. And so they have to go like, I can't let them come in and find their dead mother and their dead grandmother and let them live. That's too cruel. So I have to kill them and I have to kill them right away with one shot to the head so that they don't know that they're being killed. And he worried about the family's finances. He had lost his job and he hadn't told anybody and he couldn't keep a job because he was a deranged psychopath, but he couldn't keep a job and he kept losing jobs. So he was going to lose potentially the house they were living in, which was sort of lavish. They were going to lose status. His daughter had become an actress, an aspiring actress. She's only 16, but she was trying her hand at acting. Not quite 16. And he thought that was some sort of debauchery or alleged devil worship. You know, he was worried about her soul. So he killed his children out of altruistic filicide. And though he got away with his crime for some 18 years, he created a new identity. You got to go back and listen to the whole series. It's actually really compelling. It's amazing. on our YouTube feed and on our podcast feed now. But he got away with it for 18 years until he was featured on America's Most Wanted with John Walsh. And then he got caught under a new name in a new town with a new family. And he tried this. He tried this at his defense. And really, though I don't think he used those words, argued altruistic filicide. He did not kill his family out of hate. He did not hate his family. He loved them. He killed his family out of some weird sense of obligation and love and to, quote, spare them, spare them the shame of less money, less prestige, the daughter who was on a bad path and so on, and thought they would go to be with God. He wanted them to be with God. Same thing, you know, different dressing, but same thing. And it was soundly rejected by a jury. And he was sent off to prison for the remainder of his life, which I think is what should happen to Lindsay Clancy. Um, there's a lot of testimony about her clear thinking and, and don't mistake mental insanity. It can be present without legal insanity being found by a jury. I mean, to some extent, anybody who murders another person, unless it's like, you know, you, you murdered their child. You did something like that. You wouldn't look at that father or mother and say, that's an insane person, but murder, murder, for, you know, petty reasons always feels at a minimum irrational. And in many cases, if not most insane, like an insane choice, you know what this is going to do. You're going to end somebody else's life. You're going to play God. And you're probably going to sentence yourself to a death sentence of some sort, whether it's the death of your life of freedom or your actual death in States that have the death penalty. So, you know, there, there's a, there's a lot of mentally deranged people out there who do not get a legal insanity finding by a jury because while it's nuts to kill somebody, they weren't found incapable of understanding the wrongness of their actions in the moment. And I think too many people are conflating those things. In this case, when they talk about Lindsay Clancy, you got to have empathy for her as somebody who was a good mom and was leading a good life, which wasn't out there committing crime. Serially or even once before. But something happened to Lindsay Clancy. I, I, in listening to the testimony, saw a gentle deterioration after the first child, but after Callum was born, it was precipitous. And you could see as we got into the fall of 2022, that she really started to go downhill. She couldn't sleep. She was obsessed with his sleep schedule. She was trying to put him on, um, you know, a sleep schedule. You let, where you let the baby cry. She was the night to get him to sleep. Now everybody's like, Oh, that's a cruel thing to do. Oh, you know what? I, I did it with my kids literally one night. They cried. I didn't go get them. It wasn't an hour long cry. It was like 20 minutes. They went back to sleep. They were sleep trained after that. I was giving them the gift of sleep. They all three of them to this day are great sleepers. I think because we did that because when we gave them one night, wait until they were a little older, you slept through the night on night two thereafter, every night after they didn't need anybody else to get them back to sleep. They learned to self soothe their three delightful, well-adjusted children. So just stop with the armchair. Everything has to be re examined because Lindsay Clancy tried something that didn't work for her. I mean, this mother's fraught. She's full of nerves. She's like, I just think you ever see super anxious kids and then you meet the mom and you're like, okay, I think there's a, a fair amount of that happening here where it's like, if you're some bundle of nerves, really, you should really give, give it some serious thought before you reproduce, because not only are you passing on those genetics to a child, but then you are the primary caregiver. And if you are a bundle of nerves, your kid is probably going to be a bundle of nerves too. Whereas if you have a general relaxed countenance, um, I don't know, an ability to deal with adversity in a way that is mature. Um, then you're, you're going to pass that on to your child. Not everybody should be a parent. Like conservatives go too far. When we just start shaming people out, it was like, well, I don't want to have children. I just want to be footloose and fancy free. Why are we shaming them for that? Well, I mean, I've participated in this to some extent, not really, but a little bit. And, uh, that's wrong. Not everybody should be a mother. Not everybody's cut out for it. So she had the third child, the fall of 2022 came around and she started to go downhill. She, she couldn't get the baby on a sleep schedule and she couldn't get Dawson to sleep or behave the middle child and her sleep started to suffer. And this is, this is devastating. I mean, ask any woman in menopause, what it's like to operate on no sleep. And I was like, it's rough. You can do with a lot of things, but sleep is not one of them. And she started to go to medical providers and ask for help. And of course the woman she wound up in the care of had been done with her residency for about two minutes. I mean, like literally, and, um, never saw her in person, only examined her via zoom. It's just like, that's so fucked up. I'm all for telemedicine. I really am. It's like, it can be great. Um, when used to supplement actual in-office appointments where there are hands placed on you and actual exchanges where you look in the eye and you get somebody's aura and you get their vibes, you get their body language. You see if they're shaking, you know, like all these things. When somebody has an alcohol problem, one of the things that starts to happen when they're not drinking is they shake. How would you know that on telehealth? If they've got their hands down here, can't see them. It's not like they're their shoulders are shaking. It's the hands. That's the first tell. If you've ever known anybody who's an alcoholic, you know what I'm talking about or a drug addict. What the telehealth is a supplement. It's not a replacement for in-office visits. So I I'm not impressed with this Dr. Taft at all, who was the primary toughs, I should say, who is the primary psychiatrist who she went to see. And of course the psychiatry field being what it is, the knee reaction, just as soon as your leg kicks, when they hit it in the knee at the doctor's office was to put her on an SSRI. So she tried a couple of combinations, you know, the try the one, the Zoloft, all that doesn't work. Okay. Try the other one, the Prozac. Okay. That doesn't work. Try this other one. Try that. And, and Lindsay Clancy started seeking different doctors and different meds. And that's not a great plan either because they're not coordinating. And things just went into a downward spiral. And there's no question about that. There's no question this woman wanted help. I will say that for Lindsay Clancy. And I think this is one of the reasons why so many people have such empathy for her. She wanted help and she was jumping up and down begging for it. She told the husband, she told her mom, she told her mother-in-law, she told these doctors who she was consulting with. She called a suicide hotline twice and spoke about wanting to hurt herself, but because she didn't quote have a plan, they said, we can't help you. That is so beyond effed up. There was testimony just yesterday with one of the prosecution's rebuttal witnesses where Kevin Reddington asked, what would that do to somebody who's suicidal to call the suicide hotline and be given the back of the hand, the stiff arm? No. Oh, you don't have a plan. Okay. Bye. I get it. He's making good points. That's insane. The suicide hotline needs to have a come to Jesus moment about helping the people who have been hurt. I've gone to the trouble to tell you they want to kill themselves, but haven't yet come up with the plan. Were they called too soon? Like call me back when you've got the noose. What the, that's crazy. So I think all of us have empathy for her because this isn't somebody who just started to go downhill and then kept it a secret and didn't tell anybody and denied that she was having thoughts of harming herself or the children only to then do it. And also with a boyfriend on the side who didn't like children, right? Like we've seen in some of these other infamous cases involving women who killed their children. This isn't that she was begging for help and the medical system around her did a piss poor job of helping her. They did. So that's why a lot of people say, how, how can we blame her? These things came over her. You know, she was dealing with depression, depression, insomnia, and so on. She did the right thing. She went to doctors. She the medications made the problem worse or so it appeared. And there's always an adjustment period when you go on these SSRIs, you know, they got to figure out how to titrate it and how to ease you into it. And if it's not the right drug, reportedly they only help like 30% of the people. Like if you get Zoloft, 70% of the people are not going to be helped by it. And, um, so there it's like this trial and error period while the person's suffering. And if they just pull up stakes and they don't and go south, 'cause then they go find another doctor doctor and start anew. And then that person doesn't, the right hand doesn't know what the left hand's doing. And before you know it, you're really playing with fire. But the bottom line is we don't in this society say, oh, I'm sad. She was dealing with a lot. I guess she's not responsible for taking three lives. It's not a question of whether you can feel for her because she was troubled. She was troubled. She was troubled. It's a question about whether legally when she committed this act, she could understand what she was doing was wrong. And she did understand that. She absolutely understood that. That's why I believe the jury has a very real chance of accepting the prosecution's argument that she sent her son to jail. Her husband out of the home. She Googled the route to the restaurant. She sent him to pick up food at, which was not their normal place. And it was farther, farther away from their house than the normal places that they would go. And she had Googled the route earlier. So she knew it would take longer. That, that is planning. That looks like somebody who had murder on her mind and was planning. How to get rid of the husband. Cause the husband had been working from home. The husband knew she was a powder keg though. He had said that this was her best day, one of her best days. Um, so he didn't see a warning sign that day, but he did not leave Lindsay alone with the children for a ton of time though. He had, he had let her alone with them. The defense brought that out on testimony that there had been other times when he's, he she'd spent hours and hours alone with the children. But in any event, he was keeping a close eye from, from the sound of it. So, so she, I think recognized she needed to send him out. She sent him to CVS for a children's stool softener and then to go pick up the food. And she knew the route because she had Googled it and chose a restaurant farther away. Then he left and he called her. He left right after five and he called her at around five 33. He was gone like from five Oh nine to six. Six, just after six. And it was in that hour. She, she killed the children and tried to take her own life. And he called her up and she missed the call. But within seconds, she returned the call. They spoke for 14 seconds. He said she sounded distracted. Like she was busy. Like she, he thought she was maybe giving the children a bath and had a brief exchange about the medicine hung up. And when, by the time he got home, his children were dead. So it appears by all intents and purposes that she was either in the midst of killing those children at five 33 or had just killed the children. I mean, she understood to keep it a secret. She understood not to tell that he might get home to stop her. And she didn't want that. It wasn't consistent with her plan of sending him out so she could get it done. And then she went upstairs and threw herself out the window. Now, frankly, I don't understand the people who say this is a fake suicide attempt because she, she dove out the second story window, like headfirst toward the ground, 20 feet below. It seems like a real suicide attempt to me. Some people are pointing to the superficial wounds. She tried to cut herself horizontally across the neck and horizontally across the wrists. And many people have said that's obviously a fake attempt because among other things she had Googled, how do you cut your own carotid? I don't know what one finds when one Googles that, but presumably somebody would have made clear to her. It's an artery that runs up and down on the sides of the neck, not in the center. You know, where a man's Adam's apple would be. And some people are saying she's a nurse and she would have known that. But I don't think that's the case. I don't think that's the case. I don't think nurses have quite the bio, um, and, and, uh, you know, the human biology exposure that a doctor gets with a, with their own cadaver and all that. So it's possible she didn't know that or had forgotten or got the wrong information from Google. Who the hell knows? But the point is, if that's all she had done, okay, I could see it. This was a fake suicide attempt. She dove headfirst at the second story window. I'm like, I accept. She accept. She tried to kill herself. Not, not to mention, the calls to the suicide hotlines and the multiple writings she had done. It emerged at this trial. She had Googled, sorry, she had written in her notes and pull up my own notes on it. So I'm giving you the accurate quotes. Um, standby. Sergeant Timothy Chappini testified on August 14th, uh, that they extracted highlights from her phone at the police department. And she had Googled, where is the carotid artery? Uh, can you turn off airbags on a Kia Sorento? How to slit throat and die? She searched. Uh, and she also searched, can you treat a sociopath? Now that's really interesting. Can you treat a sociopath? Someone who has no empathy for others, no empathy whatsoever, does not process, human emotion the way the rest of us do. I mean, you, this is where her worst detractors go, that she was one. She was a sociopath and that's why she killed the children, that it wasn't even altruistic. Fell aside. She's a sociopath who was done being a mother. The kids were kind of difficult. Her life was tough. She wasn't getting enough sleep. She didn't want to be a mother anymore. So she got rid of them. I, I'm not quite that cynical, but that, that is what some people believe about her. Um, so she clearly did want to die. I mean, I don't think you Google how to slit throat and die. Uh, can you turn off airbags of a Kia Sorento? Uh, and where is the carotid artery? If you're not thinking about dying? I mean, I suppose you could make the argument. She originally considered doing those things to kill her children. Uh, but there's plenty of evidence that she was calling suicide high lines and telling providers that she was having thoughts of harming herself that I accept. She wanted, she wanted to kill herself. As it turns out, she would live. She would become a paraplegic. Some people are suggesting she's a quadriplegic. She's not, she's moving her arms and her shoulders and her upper body. She's leaning over. She's a, she's a paraplegic. Um, and she's in a wheelchair in court right now. And I think she very much intended not to wake up, um, when she jumped out that window. I think she, she did want to die, but none of that changes whether she knew right from wrong. And the doctors have testified about the methodical crushing of, cause she also took pills before she jumped out the window, the methodical crushing of the pills, the lining up of the drink, like that would have taken time. It would have taken planning and so on. And, um, all of that is evidence that she was of sound mind. She was making logical decisions and she had ordered thinking. All right. I want to go back over a couple of these points with actual trial testimony. And, uh, I'm going to start with Patrick Clancy. All right, here he is. And he was helpful both to the prosecution and the defense. He was called by the prosecution, but he had a lot to say that was helpful to Lindsay's defense as well. And here he is describing a bit of the background to Kevin Reddington. On cross on, um, if this is, uh, via CBS, Boston sought three, what kind of a mother was she? Um, she was very dedicated. She did everything. Um, she started reading them books at three months and, um, she made up songs for them. Um, I remember she used to make green eggs and ham for a because she liked that book. Did she, to your observation, did she love Dawson? She loved Dawson very much. Did she resent him? No. Okay. So she did not resent the children. Then he is asked by the prosecution, uh, in the early months when she started having troubles and he was still going out and about, what did you see in your wife? Stop for me. During those, those months, um, when you're going to the beach and out on the boat and, and visiting with friends, um, were there any signs of anxiety in the defendant during those months? Um, I would say starting in September. Yes. But in the previous months, uh, not so much. When had she been scheduled to go back to work? I don't remember the exact date, but I think it was October. Okay. So again, it was that pattern of, as it became closer in time to go back to work, she started to struggle. During the times when, um, she would get anxious when it was time to go back to work and she would start being anxious. did you ever have any difficulty understanding her when she spoke no and um did did she ever exhibit any behavior um that made you concerned enough to call a doctor or want to um commit her commit her no here's the defense talking about that same time frame stop five what happened in uh september october of 2022 um lindsey's mental health started to deteriorate and when you say that sir what is it that you as her husband observed just increased stress and anxiety do you recall whether or not to your opinion that she had any reactions to the zoloft that she had been placed on by dr um tufts i don't know any observations that were made um right so it's not guesswork it's observations anything you saw and observed yeah it seemed to align with her uh insomnia symptoms now the insomnia inability to sleep was that a significant problem from your observations with her yeah it was a huge problem and when you say a huge problem uh was there one point when she was on medication from tufts that in fact she had gone 48 hours i think without sleep yeah and that was disturbing to her yeah and it was just hard to function and how about you was it disturbing to you i just wanted her to get sleep and feel better um now here is her mother lindsey glancy's mother testifying about a text she got same time frame october 20th i remember some of the children had three months to live from lindsey listen here i saw 19 mom will you please come up and stay with me for a bit i'm really sick something is wrong i had horrible insomnia all night and i just don't know how i'm going to get through the day i started taking the medicine my doctor prescribed for anxiety and i think it's made things worse it's just really scary and i don't want to be alone so she's reaching out she's reaching out for help come stay with me i'm really sick something's wrong i think the medication has made things worse and it was it was making things worse for her she was going downhill on these meds and she knew it um back at home by the time they got to january um she had already done a stint at the beginning of the month at january in mclean hospital so she was hospitalized for a very short period i think it was three or four days at the beginning of january but was released um here is a question back to the husband on what she was thinking what she was like when she went to the hospital at the beginning of the month sat nine can you tell jerry what her state of mind was as she went to mclean hospital with her husband on new year's 23 at that point um she was scared she didn't want to go but i think it was um the second time we went to the er and um i said you have to go do you know whether or not she saw a doctor or psychiatrist ultimately from mclean hospital i was not aware of that the only one i was aware of it was the doctor on the second last or final day and what was that dr goodhart yeah and did you speak to dr goodhart i ended up calling her um i wanted to see what her evaluation was um and um so i gave her a call and we we spoke and um she said you know she's she's clearly depressed sustained there was an occasion where she told you in the presence of her mother that she was having horrible thoughts right right and you told us about that yesterday um and that took it was quite an emotional thing for her to do that right right so he's testifying she was admitted into this mclean hospital this is post she'd been seeing dr jennifer tufts via zoom only the one who just finished her medical residency um for those initial fall months in in the september october november time frame by the time they get to new year's day she needs to go in hospital and that is where dr alia goodhart took care of her she took the stand in this case and here's how that went prosecution and then a bit of defense that 25 and 26 major depressive disorder severe without without psychotic features during this interaction with her on the january 3rd um did you observe any signs of psychosis no there's several things um she was future oriented she was really uh invested in her children she was a caring mother just like um a caring mother she had her parents uh around to help her um she had family and supports but in order for a person to receive um intervention they have to identify that they have an intent or a plan yes and to your knowledge based on your experience and your conversations with this particular patient did she ever indicate that she ever said she had a plan no no no plan and these are apparently the magic words in psychiatry so she was released and within three weeks she will have killed her children and tried to kill herself here's back to patrick on first her suggesting he go to this 3v restaurant which was farther away than the normal ones it's not 11 i want to direct your attention to 4 53 p.m that day did you receive a text from lindsey um about dinner yeah and do you recall what it said something along the lines of do you want to get takeout i haven't planned anything do you recall it saying any chance you want to do takeout from 3v i didn't cook anything it's been a long day yeah had you been to 3v restaurant previously um alone or with the family with the family and approximately how many times had you been there to eat probably three times and um so you you had all gotten in the car and driven from your home um had you ever done takeout from there before no where would you typically do takeout um when you were going to do takeout at home uh the chestnut grill um i think another one was west end grill were those closer than 3v to your home yeah so lindsey suggested 3v and you agreed is that correct yeah okay did she send you another text at 4 56 p.m asking you to take a look at the menu yeah and did you send a text at 5 0 6 p.m um about callan yeah i asked if he had taken a nap and did she respond yeah it's chilling to just know what's leading up to what all of this is leading up to he went on uh this is when he was leaving the house sat 13 who called in the order to 3v lindsey once the order was placed what did you do uh i came upstairs i um took callan for a minute and i rocked him by my knees kiss core on the head and um i still carry it back do you remember um um what the defendants did well first of all where was the defendant seated um when you left the house or was she seated she's standing where was she in the doorway of the living room and um was that the doorway by the front door or the doorway by the basement door this doorway by the basement door okay and um did she have calendar or where was callan she had callan okay and what was her demeanor uh normal one more before we take a quick break stop 14 his call and did you receive a call back from her about a minute later at 5 34 p.m yeah that's correct okay and um can you describe that phone call for us it was very brief i just said um i think there was a generic brand and i said is this one okay and she said yeah that's fine and um what was her demeanor during the call um she's pretty quiet it sounded like she was busy with her phone call and she said yeah that's fine i remember hanging up thinking she's probably in the middle of giving baths or something like that so it sounded to you like she was in the middle of something yeah were you able to understand her when she spoke to you yeah and did she seem to understand what you were saying yes she talked stopped she took a call she was lucid she did not sound out of her mind they dealt with the business of the cvs and then she went back to whatever was she was doing in that particular moment which was either killing the children or having killed them about to go upstairs and throw herself out the window that's it that is tough tough tough to argue that's a psychotic woman in that moment We'll pick it up there when we come back with Brian Enten. 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When we left off, we had Patrick Clancy talking about his call with his wife when he was out running the errands she sent him on. And we know now that in the midst of that call, somewhere around it, she was murdering their children. And he has testified about what he saw when he came home, which was his wife on the front lawn, injured but alive, saying she tried to kill herself. And it appears that at that time. At that point, it didn't dawn on him that his children might have been hurt. He asks where they are, and she says, in the basement. And it's not until EMS gets there to take care of Lindsay's injuries that he then goes to check on his children and unfortunately finds them in the most gruesome state possible. She's strangled them, not with an exercise band, as people are loosely saying, but with a cord. You know, it looks like a bungee cord. I don't know. It's a very different color for each child. They played in court the 911 call that he made upon that discovery. They did not release it to the public because presumably it's just so difficult and gruesome and awful. But at some point, it will become part of the public record. However, the Daily Mail had a reporter inside the courtroom who was there as it was played. And she spoke with our next guest, who I'll bring in after we play this. Brian Enten. He's with News Nation. And she described the call. Here's that. It was one of the worst, the worst thing I've ever heard. It was the screams coming out of Patrick were just unearthly and guttural and unlike anything I've ever heard, really. And, you know, it's I think it's important to note that, you know, the beginning, as you say, he he went, he found Lindsay and he was panicked. You could hear the panic in his voice, but he was still very coherent. And he was able to talk to the dispatcher about getting emergency responders there. He was able to reassure Lindsay. And then when emergency responders arrived, he was heard saying, I'm just going to go check on the kids. You could hear him running down the stairs and then just these unearthly screams. And yeah. And then he was unable to speak. He. His words were indiscernible until he screamed out. She killed the kids. And I mean, the whole courtroom was just torn apart by it. You know, it was jury jury members were crying. Lindsay's parents were crying. Members of the media, the public. Lindsay herself hunched over the defense table, quietly sobbing. But then when the judge immediately called the recess, the second that stopped playing, he cleared the courtroom and she broke down in loud and condescending. And then when the judge immediately called the recess, the third that stopped playing, he cleared the courtroom and she broke down in loud and condescending. Court ended. They were going into a break, and they kind of wheeled her – away from the table. So she was almost facing the door. And as I was walking out, we kind of locked eyes for a second. And it was just strange looking at her knowing what she did. I mean, she's admitted to doing it. And also, I mean, she's really put together. That was the other thing I kind of thought of. Her hair is done nicely. She's clearly curled it every day. I don't know what women do, but it's like a flat iron or whatever. And she's got nice clothes. She's got nice clothes on. She doesn't look disheveled at all. She doesn't look mentally ill. She looks like totally with it, but she's just there in the wheelchair. And I've actually heard from some sources outside the courtroom connected to the case that her mental health right now, they say, is actually very good, that she is fully with it now. And it feels like that in court. Do we have any idea on the medical cocktail, what they did to get her to this point? Because one of the main points that the prosecution is making is, okay, she allegedly heard a male voice telling her to commit these murders. Um, so convenient that she had never heard it before. Never before. She, she said to the father and to her own mother, I'm having thoughts. I'm having thoughts. Those are her words of killing, not killing, but of hurting the children. Do you have a plan? No. And Patrick said, I felt comfortable leaving her with the children and had before with nothing happening, but never had mentioned voices, a male voice or someone instructing her in her mind on what to do until all, this is what the prosecution's experts are saying. The 18 minutes in which the crime happened, which is, you know, which they found very suspicious. Um, I think we have that. Hold on a second. Yeah, here it is. This is Dr. Kirk Halbern, uh, making this point, Saat 35. The way she described this as happening is that she heard a voice that she'd never heard before, experienced an hallucination and she's never experienced it since, but she only experienced it for the 18 minutes or so that it took to kill the children. And to put it mildly, that would be a very, very unusual pattern or, or manifestation of how this kind of thing comes about. Uh, why is that doctor? Why, why are you careful when someone tells you that they only experienced this voice during a criminal offense? Well, because it provides a convenient way of, of lessening your own culpability. Okay. So that's him casting doubt on whether she really heard the voice, but we do know that if she did hear the voice, it was only that time. It was only the day of the murders, no record of her hearing it before and no record. It seems to be undisputed. She never heard it from the time she was found on the lawn thereafter. Her defenders will say that's because she's on a different set of meds. Now she's been hospitalized. Do we know what happened on the medications before versus after? We don't exactly. It's been very confusing following the medications because they were changed so many times. And then there were times that she chose not to take the medicine. So it's been kind of unclear. Exactly what medicines she was on at what time, including when the murders happened. But again, today, the psychiatrist on the stand is saying something similar to what Dr. Helburn said that he's not convinced that it was actually a voice. He thinks that it was more of a thought that she was having these thoughts and that she's confusing it with hearing the voice just because this psychiatrist today, who by the way, is like the top scientist for the FBI behavioral analysis unit, says that it would be unusual to just have, as you said, the voice in that one period. Granted, Kevin Reddington, the defense attorney, has been calling him out and calling the psychologist you played out from yesterday because they didn't really spend much time with Lindsay Clancy. I mean, today's psychiatrist literally did a one hour Zoom with her. And this was only a couple of months ago and has even admitted that examining someone years after something like this happened is not, you know, the best way to do it. So he's been trying to kind of pull the trigger. He's been trying to pull the trigger. And well, do they really even know what she was experiencing? Here is that FBI doc that you referenced, Dr. Gregory Sadoff, talking about the same issue about if you're really psychotic, the voice doesn't come and go. Here is SOT 03. This is court on Tuesday. Doctor, based on your training and experience in dealing with diagnosing and treating people who have psychosis and what you've learned in all your trainings, what have you learned? What have you learned? What have you and schooling, is it typical for someone in psychosis to hear a voice only one time, never before, never after? No. And again based on your training experience, is it typical for someone in psychosis to hear a voice that's constant rather than intermittent? No, that is not typical. And is it typical based on your training experience for someone to hear command hallucinations and then for them to stop abruptly? No. Committing the act is not curative of the voice. I've not ever seen that. And yet the defense put up experts of its own, Dr. Paul Zeisel and Philip Resnick, who did say, that she had documented with them hearing the voice that this was psychosis and that she was being controlled, she thought, by an outside force. Here's just a bit of that, Brian. This is SOP 30, Dr. Philip Resnick, who testified for the defense. He also testified at the Andrea Yates trial and has consulted on a lot of trials, including the Jeffrey Dahmer trial, which I opened the hour talking about, SOP 30. And after time of the crime itself on January 24, 2023, Ms. Clancy was frankly psychotic. Those are dangerous command hallucinations. Now, in Ms. Clancy's case, she had not only a command hallucination on the day that she killed her children, she had what is known as a delusion of influence. That is, not only did she hear a command, but she felt that her body was taken over by an external force where she was in a green state and did not have control of her own body. It was almost like she was a puppet and someone else was pulling the strings. So this jury has had quite a few medical experts saying diametrically opposed things to them, Brian. And many people believe it's going to come down to just how sorry do they feel for Lindsay Clancy, if at all? Yeah. And I keep hearing this term like the battle of the experts. And it really is because there's been, even since I've been here, so many experts who have all said like literally the opposite things. And even the prosecution doctors evaluated her together. They went into the hospital together and evaluated her at the same time and had different theories about what actually was going on in her brain. So you have to, it just makes you think about psychiatry. I never really thought about it this much until I was sitting there, like just what a non-exact science it is that you've got all of these different doctors who can't even agree on exactly what happened here. And yeah, that's what it's going to come down to. I mean, they're going to have to decide who they believe, or as you say, just whether they feel sorry for her. And just the fact that there really doesn't seem to be another motive here for why she would have done this. Everyone, for the most part, has agreed that she was an amazing mom. They tried to talk a little bit about a financial motive today, but that doesn't really seem to add up. So there's not another motive secretly out there. They spoke again today. They went through all the cell phones. They went through all the emails. They went through all the journals. That's when you see all these crazy theories on TikTok. It's like they would have found this stuff. The prosecution went through everything. But it doesn't seem like there was some other motive out there for her to do this. Well, there are some people out there suggesting that the father did it. And I saw you were in the scrum yesterday around Kevin Reddington as he left, where he was asked, this is her defense lawyer. You know, did Patrick do it? Not that in those exact words, but, you know, asked about these theories. And he was like, oh, come on. You know, I get enough trouble trying to defend Lindsay. But he was rolling his eyes. Lindsay doesn't dispute that she killed the children. She doesn't dispute that. The whole thing comes down to whether, whether she should go to a mental health facility or whether she should go to jail. I mean, that's really what we're arguing over. And the legal standard, Brian, is that the prosecution has to prove that either she didn't have a qualifying mental disease or defect or that any such condition did not deprive her of the substantial capacity to either appreciate that her conduct was criminal or conduct to the requirements of the law. And to me, this all comes down to the prosecution trying to argue that she did not lose her ability to appreciate that her conduct was criminal. was wrong. She knew her conduct was wrong. That's why she sent the husband out to the farther restaurant and waited until he left and did all the things she did because she didn't want to witness. She didn't want to be stopped. And she wanted to make sure that those children were dead. I mean, that's really what it comes down to. When you talk to the lay people around the courthouse, because I know you're great about talking to everybody on scene like this. Do you get any feel for what the mood is? Yeah, I mean, look, it's pretty divided. It started out with mostly the pink ladies. I'm sure you saw them, all of the women in pink who have been outside supporting Lindsay Clancy. And there was that one day where they lined the street and actually cheered when her van arrived, which I talked to the organizer of the pink ladies yesterday. And she said that that was not the plan, by the way. She's like, I told everybody to just be silent and hold their signs. And they just crazy impromptu cheered. And she was actually not happy about it. She's like this kind of like cause. We don't think of her as a hero. And it turned a lot of people off. There are even people I knew who were supporting her that that moment kind of like turned it for them. So you've got those ladies. And then in the beginning, the white shirt ladies were not there. But they've now also come and they all kind of are in a field outside the courthouse. And they are there to support Lindsay Clancy's children. They have usually t-shirts and signs with the pictures of the three kids. And they believe she is guilty. But what's interesting is I went around and talked to all of them the other day. And all of them pretty much agree that she was mentally ill and don't think there was some other secret motive for the most part and think that she probably did have postpartum psychosis. But to them, it's just doesn't excuse the fact that a mother murdered her children. I think they're right. I mean, honestly, I know you don't opine on these things and on the conclusion you report. But I will say like, I agree with that. I agree that I don't know about psychosis, but she definitely was severely. Depressed and having massive issues. I mean, generally taking Zoloft or Prozac does not cause psychosis and make you kill your children or those drugs wouldn't be the huge juggernauts that they are. So and then there's been testimony that postpartum psychosis does not if you get it, it does not go eight months post birth. And so that's being rejected. And it is important whether this was an internal thought. You know, I want my children to die and I'm going to be the one to do it. Versus a voice that you're hearing, which would be more consistent with psychosis with like a true insane event taking over as opposed to you got really depressed. You had enough. You had no you felt you had no other choice. You were going to kill yourself and you didn't think the children could or should live without you, which is really the prosecution's theory, which doesn't that doesn't make you insane. You're depressed. And this is sad what happened to you. But we can't start getting giving mothers a pass. Just because they're super depressed when it comes to killing their kids. I mean, that's basically how this how this shakes out. Yeah. And I think it's interesting to point out, too, that if she's not guilty by reason of insanity, she could get out. I mean, if what I'm hearing is true, I mean, she's overcome the postpartum psychosis. She's been in treatment and that she's doing relatively OK now. If she's not guilty, yes, she'll go to the institution immediately. But I would I believe that in a few years she'll come back before the judge periodically. She very well may get out and walk free. Granted, what life kind of life will she have? I mean, she's obviously miserable because she killed her kids and she's in the wheelchair and all the rest. But I don't think it's going to be like a Susan Smith where she stays, you know, in a lockdown facility for decades. I really don't. Yeah. Well, that's that's important to think about. I mean, because we've been thinking about it, that she'd be locked up, you know, perhaps even longer in a mental health facility than in a jail. But you're raising a good point. If she's already on the path back to wellness, how long would they keep her? Yeah. She gets to let you go when they think you're not safe. So you are Susan Smith. Yeah. Yeah. There was a moment with this Gregory Sadoff, the FBI doc yesterday where he was chilling. Brian, you must run in the court for this or he they were talking about what the. Children must have gone through. Would they be like little puppets she could easily manipulate or would they have fought? It was just so dark. But it's relevant because this jury. They're humans like you and I, and they will absolutely have reactions to any time spent over that target of what the kids actually went through in the moment. Here is part of that and sat zero five. Doctor, is there any significance to the fact that this voice, he's telling her to kill the children, but not telling her how to kill the children? Yes. And what is that? Just like adults, children have a will to survive strong, strong will to survive. I think it's just part of being human. And so. I know that Dr. Resnick described Ms Clancy as acting as if she were a puppet. But the children are not puppets. They the jury has seen the autopsy photos, Brian. I mean, the jury has gone through a lot in this trial, and I'm sure they are. But I think it's just part of it. I think it's just part of it. But I think the jury has gone through a lot in this trial, and I think it's just part of it. I think the jury has gone through a lot in this trial, and I think it's just part of it. Life constantly bombards us with silent threats, processed foods, artificial light, nonstop stress, all of which can disrupt gut health, drain energy, and weaken immune health. 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She wanted him to pay, as her final I am woman, hear me roar moment, $8 million in legal fees for that claim that she got, dismissed of his defamation. He tried to countersue against her for defaming him. It got thrown out, and under California law, she's entitled to fees as a result of that sequence of events. The judge has just ruled on what she will get. It's $400,000. She wanted $8 million so she could run around telling everyone, I got him in the end. He's so dumb. He agreed to my settlement. I didn't, you know, he was telling everybody he didn't have to pay, but I got him in the end. For $8 million on my fee? No, not even half a million. $400,000. And you know what? I'll tell you something. If she had gone to Justin Baldoni before this whole thing got started and said, you know, I had some problems with the way things went down on the set, didn't appreciate this, that, and the other thing. If you pay me $400,000, I'll go away. He probably would have done it in a heartbeat, he and his production company, just to avoid this whole nightmare. It would have been a great deal for Blake, who would have still had a career and people who liked her, unlike now. Or she doesn't have either. The judge finding that the hourly rate charged by the attorneys for Lively and Baldoni, let's see, yeah, was not unreasonable as the case presented substantial financial and reputational risks to both sides. But Judge Lyman also rejected her demand to be reimbursed for the cost to her PR team, saying media relations were not integral to defending the defamation claim. against Blake Lively. He also ruled the clerk of court is respectfully directed to enter judgment for Lively in the amount of $363,000 and change in attorney's fees and 44 grand and change in costs. He said, while the attorney's fees, like the rate per hour was not unreasonable, the number of hours that Lively had billed for her lawyers was unreasonable. And he criticized the discrepancies in the expenses. That she was trying to claim. So Brian Friedman's team came forward and said, there's some funny business afoot on this math judge. And he seemed to agree. This is great. I mean, because, you know, she was getting ready to do her little PR tour. We spoke with a woman who is behind the creation of that law that said, if you're a sexual harassment or abuse victim and you file a lawsuit against your alleged harasser and he counter sues you for defamation, and then you managed to get the defamation claim thrown out, you can get your fees. She's behind that law. And she came on this program and made a lot of news saying, we never had the likes of Blake Lively in mind when we passed this law. It was meant to start to stop a disempowered female with no clout connections, financial resources, or power from getting harassed by a much more powerful industry boss who could ruin her career. The roles were reversed. Blake Lively was the bully. She and her husband with her dragons, Taylor. Swift and Ryan Reynolds, they had all the power. Justin Baldoni had none. Very few people even knew who he was prior to the commencement of this whole case. So everything. And so she wanted to then bring that law into existence in all 50 states. And she wanted to spearhead it. And this woman who actually did get it passed in California and a couple of other key states told us that she said to Blake's team, please, no, please have Blake Lively stay out of this. I don't want her help. And I don't think it will. It would be helpful to have her pick this up, but she, she wanted her Khaleesi moment. She never got it. Guess what? She didn't get it today either. $400,000 will probably be handled by insurance and he won't pay a penny, but even if he had to, that's something I believe he could handle. Unbelievable. What a great, great result for Justin Baldoni. Congratulations to him because he fought hard and he won. He won. Good for him. Thank God, frankly, because I think she made up the whole thing. She was absolutely. Beastly to him and should be held to account. She should not be cast. We should not be supporting her at the box office. She'll be fine. She's got Ryan Reynolds. I probably has a billion dollars in the bank, so they'll be fine. Uh, okay. Melissa Gilbert, speaking of Hollywood actresses, I've had it with this gal. I mean, she, she, she was, she was a good Laura Ingalls in little house on the Prairie. And that is how I will try to remember Melissa Gilbert, not the outrageous adult she's turned into. Now her husband, Timothy Busfield, is currently on trial for allegedly sexually abusing two young boys starting at the age of seven for those children while they are on his set of a television show that he used to executive produce and direct. We have talked about this case at length. I will be the first to tell you just as soon as it came out, we reported at that moment, the parents of the two boys are grifters. In my opinion, they are, the dad has served time. The mother has passed bad checks. The crimes that they've been accused, he was disbarred. The dad was as well. The crimes and, and misdeeds they've been accused of go right to whether they are truthful people and court after court has said they're not very relevant. I'm going to let this case play out in New Mexico and we'll report how it turns out when it's over. I don't want to disparage the young boys just because you're born to grifters doesn't mean you make up claims like this. We must keep that in mind, but it certainly requires a massive asterisk when reporting these allegations. Okay. But that's not what this is about. This is about the litany of young women who came forward against Timothy Busfield after this case was brought in the same way the Me Too movement created streams of women who would come forward saying Me Too, Me Too, Me Too. It did that in this case too, even though the original complainants victims alleged are two little boys. Now they're older. And it was shocking the things that were alleged against Timothy Busfield. And I'm going to go through it. But Melissa Gilbert has the nerve to come out in the wake of the death of Hayden Panettiere saying we women of the industry must bond together to stop the abuse of young child actors and women in our industry. And she talks about not just Hayden, but two other actresses who have died over the past year. Not one from AIDS, one from something else, not from substance abuse or whatever. I don't know exactly why she's lumping in these other two. But she's saying it's high time for our industry to take care of women and prevent them from having to suffer being used, abused, and exploited. Okay. How is it that that's happened from the time she was on Little House on the Prairie to now? I've got a clue for you, Melissa. It appears to be thanks to people like your husband, who you are defending. She's defending, she's standing by him even on the host of women who have come forward. She was asked by George Stephanopoulos in Good Morning America whether she was aware of the litany of women who have come forward against him. Okay. It's not just one or two. By my count, it is, let's see, one, two, three, four, five, six, at least seven who have come forward, saying when they were young, in some instances, 16, 17, he, her husband, who she's standing by, shoved his hands down their pants, physically or sexually assaulted them in his trailer, at his theater, on set someplace. I mean, this woman, the gall, like, however, did we get to this point where women are being, serially abused? Why don't you ask Timothy, Melissa? He could really help us out. Oh, wait, you don't give a shit about anything involving him. It's just something that you don't have any connection to that you would like to condemn. That's not how it works. You're going to have to sit this one out, Mel. Listen to what she told Stephanopoulos after the litany of women came forward. This was, I don't have the date in front of me. Let's say, yeah, I do. April 6th. Watch. References to two women who'd accused Timothy of sexual assault back in 1994 and 2012. He settled one of the cases. Were you aware of these cases before the criminal complaint? I got this one. I need to make something really abundantly clear. These allegations have been out in the ether for a very long time. That means you knew about them. When Tim and I got together, the Internet existed. I didn't go into my relationship with him blind. I am neither naive nor am I complicit. I talked to him about it. I asked him questions about it. I heard his side of the story, which no one has ever heard, which is the truth. And when the time is right, and that is not now, Tim will tell the truth of all of these past allegations when he needs to. Okay. Let's just go through them. All right. A little reminder on exactly what we're talking about. All right. 1991. Then 26-year-old Claudia Christian, this is reported by the Mirror, who is now 60, but at the time was, I don't know, 1991. She was in her mid-20s, I think. Claimed Busfield. Attacked her while they were rehearsing a scene in his trailer for the 1991 TV movie, Strays. They found her police interview, the Mirror did. She said Busfield seized her, tossed her against a wall, and began kissing her. Quote, She told the Mirror, they reached out to her, that she felt angry with herself when she heard news of Busfield's search warrant for not coming forward sooner. However, she came to the conclusion little would have been done if she had spoken up, probably because of people like Melissa Gilbert, who decide to effectively call you a liar and dismiss your account. The believe-all-women crowd is falling down on the job. That's one. Okay. She was 26, Claudia Christian, when it happened, allegedly. 1994. I should say up front, he denies all of these. 1994. An unnamed 17-year-old. This is a person who was an extra on the set of Little Big League, in which he starred. She sued in Los Angeles Superior Court, claiming Busfield had assaulted her, served her alcohol, groped her, attempted sex with her in his trailer. He denied it, and then countersued for extortion. They settled the case privately. He then tried to bring a defamation bid against her lawyers. That got thrown out, leaving him to foot nearly $150,000 in costs. No charges were filed. Okay, so there we have, so far we have a 26-year-old who claims that he. He assaulted her, and now a 17-year-old on the set of Little Big League, who said he assaulted her. In 1994, Eliza Roberts, who is the sister-in-law to Julia Roberts, she's married to her brother, her brother, Eric Roberts. She claimed that Busfield allegedly sexually harassed and humiliated her. She said she submitted this testimony in support of a 17-year-old girl from Minnesota. This is the one I just reported on, who accused him of sexually harassing her on the set of Little Big League. So she heard this, and she said, I got to come forward and tell the truth about him because, yes, I too can attest that he's a sexual pervert, and I'm not going to let this 17-year-old twist in the wind. In her deposition obtained by the Daily Mail, Roberts testified that Busfield, 68, was a creep who, quote, compulsively chased after women. Again, she's the wife of Julia's brother, Eric, Julia Roberts. She offered her sworn statement. Along with five other unidentified women in support of the 17-year-old's lawsuit. So I don't even know whether those five overlap with the seven or so I've just listed, or I told you I have in front of me. God only knows how many there are. But there were at least five who came forward when the 17-year-old sued to say, me too, Timothy. And that case is settled out of court, as I told you. She claimed, Eliza did, Busfield tried to cajole her into having sex with him, pompously insisting that he would, quote, while complaining that his then-wife, this is before Melissa, was a lousy fuck, excuse me. Three of the other women who submitted statements, also obtained by the Mail, were involved in the production of Little Big League 2. Two of them testified that Busfield hit on them in bars in a persistent, unsettling, and aggressively sexual manner. So that is one, two, three, at least, on the set of Little Big League, who claimed he was harassing them, sexually harassing them, at least one of whom was a teenager. And then others coming forward to say, me too, including Eliza Roberts. And that's to say nothing of the 26-year-old who kicked this whole thing off, saying, in his trailer, on the TV movie, Strays, while they were rehearsing a scene. Which leads me to the next allegation from 1999. There was a 16-year-old. Court documents allege he sexually abused a 16-year-old girl while she was auditioning. Here we go. We go again on the sets of his movies, his TV movies, his big screen movies, in his trailer, in the midst of a different kind of movie. And now alleging here, in his theater, it was called the B Street Theater, while she was auditioning, a 16-year-old. It was his theater. He was 43. She was 16. She reported he kissed her, put his hands down her pants, and touched her privates. The defendant. Begged the family, meaning Busfield, not to report it to law enforcement if he received therapy. The father was a therapist himself of the 16-year-old and thought, okay, that's a reasonable thing to do. I will. I'll have mercy on him. That father gave an interview, which we have here on camera, in part, I think it's Inside Edition, Deb, right? Take a listen to the father. This is earlier this year. He's a serial pedophile predator. My daughter was accepted into the B Street Theater. B Street Theater internship program, and that was a big deal in those days. You got to perform in front of, you know, an Emmy Award-winning actor, Tim Busfield. He says about four months into her internship, Busfield asked his daughter to clean his office. She climbed a little ladder, and Tim was below her looking up. She told me she was pulled down. He spun her around. It was reported that he kissed her. It wasn't a kiss. It was a violation. He says. Busfield aggressively touched his daughter all over. The dad tells me that his daughter pushed Busfield away and screamed, and that Busfield told her to be quiet or people would hear her. When you confronted Timothy Busfield, what happened? Tim began to cry. He started talking to me about how he was remorseful. Tim begged me not to go to the police. He says Busfield promised to seek therapy. The dad, who's a therapist himself, says he agreed. Decision he now regrets. You didn't go to the police. No, I did not. This is why I feel so guilty. This man needs to go down. He is a bad, a bad apple. Okay, back to Melissa Gilbert. I don't know how abuse continues in Hollywood. How? How does this keep happening? Melissa, why don't you chat about it over dinner tonight? You don't have to get your union. She's like, let's get the union involved. Let's create a support group with all former child actors like Drew Barry. And Sarah Jessica Parker. Just sit down at dinner. You can do it over cocktails tonight. Start at home. It's not going to be hard. Trust me. You can get a whole host of reasons why this keeps happening from the man across the plate from you. Let's keep going. An unnamed 28-year-old via police affidavit reported that he allegedly battered her in an L.A. movie theater, slipping his hands under her clothes, touching her genitals for four minutes. Prosecutors chose not to bring criminal charges in this case. He called it consensual. There was no arrest and no lawsuit, but she was upset enough she went to the cops. Date unknown via KOAT, the ABC local in Albuquerque. A woman said she encountered Busfield while getting books for her kids. She claimed he followed her to her car and began graphically talking to her. It was very bizarre. It was very disturbing. Extremely aggressive. Totally uninvited on my part. I didn't understand why he just suddenly went there. And I tried to say, OK, I'll talk to you later. I have to go. It was relentless. I rolled up my window. She claims Busfield then followed her to another business trying to finish the conversation. I've got one more, and I've got to talk about what Melissa Gilbert is saying about Hayden Panettiere now. So I'm going to do what I can in the next minute, and then we'll steal a couple minutes of the next hour and continue this. 2017. His former assistant comes forward, 22 years old. Now he's in his 60s, and he's apparently allegedly still doing this. She said, or he was at least in his late 50s, He kind of touched me on my thigh in the car. I was 22. He was my boss. I felt very uncomfortable. The comments he made toward me were pretty uncomfortable. I remember feeling very early on. I didn't necessarily feel safe alone with him. He would push my shoulders, give me kind of unwanted touch. She said during a trip to Traverse City for a film festival, he hit on her. This is his assistant, and wanted her to stay late and drink with him. 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I now have my very own channel on SiriusXM. It's called the Megyn Kelly Channel, and it is where you will hear the truth, unfiltered, with no agenda and no apologies. Along with the Megyn Kelly Show, you're going to hear from people like Mark Halperin, Link Loren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Jaschinski, Jesse Kelly, Real Clear Politics, and many more. It's bold, no BS news, only on the Megyn Kelly Channel, SiriusXM 111, and on the SiriusXM app. OK, so enter Melissa Gilbert, which she shouldn't have entered at all. She should have just kept her mouth shut and stayed over there dealing with their considerable problems that they already have in his existing criminal case. But no, she's got to weigh in. She's got to offer her two cents because it's very important to Melissa Gilbert to be seen as a champion of women, even though she's not. Here's what she writes. I mean, she's not going to believe this on her sub stack. Enough is enough. How is it possible that no one in the mainstream media has picked up on this? Within one year, Michelle Trachtenberg, Dave Chase, and Hayden Panettiere have died. Three former female actors, female child actors of the same generation are gone, tragically, heartbreakingly, agonizingly too soon. OK, she adds, I call them female actors because the term actress to me is as misogynistic as calling a female doctor a doctress. You're an idiot. They are gone. And the question I have been turning over and over in my head is why? Why are these sweet, wildly talented, vibrant, vital young women gone? And why does this all feel so personal to me? OK, now, first of all, why are they gone? They're gone because Michelle Trachtenberg died at the age of 39 in February of 25 from complications from diabetes. That's why she's gone. Like, it's very sad, but I don't think there's anything Hollywood can do about it. Then there's Dave Chase, who died on June 16th at the age of 36. She was she voiced Lilo and Lilo and Stitch. She died of AIDS, which is awful and should be preventable. But I have no idea how we're pinning that on Hollywood either. There's nothing in her background about her being sexually abused in any way. So I'm I'm again, I'm open. Minded, but you're not getting me there. Hayden Panettiere. Yes, absolutely. Put into acting at too young an age by Hollywood moguls. No, her mother by her mother, Melissa. Like, it's not great. Hollywood sucks. It's disgusting, toxic industry, much like news. But like, it's her parents who put her into it. The reason I wasn't on Little House on the Prairie is because my mom loved me and kept me at home and sent me to school. A normal child. Like, the reason Hayden wound up as she did is because her mother made a very different choice. And they wound up loathing each other, per Hayden's book. So here she goes on. Okay, why? Why? Why are these, you know, sweet young women gone? And why does it all feel so personal to me? It feels personal because I was them, she writes. We are all members of the same tribe, female former child performers. And when one of us dies, it runs through all of us like an electrical current. It ran through you like an electrical current when a former child actress died of diabetes. Like, what? Did they serve her too many sugary drinks on the set? Where are you going with this? It's tragic that a young person, a woman in her 30s, ever dies. That has nothing to do with Hollywood, lest you know something you're not revealing in your sub stack, and I'm open-minded to hearing that. Okay, then here we go. She posits the reason. Okay, she says, listen to this. We all know the stories of how the entertainment industry uses, abuses, exploits, and then throws away its youngest. But for some reason, this trend is getting worse. Yes, whatever could the reason be? Could it be possibly like one of the things serial perverts in Hollywood who actually use and abuse them on the set, in their trailer, on the audition stage? And then call them liars publicly when they actually, in some of these cases, have gone to the police, have eyewitnesses, have five other women who want to come forward to say the same thing happened to me? Could that be it? No. What does Melissa think? My thinking is that it's tied to the invention of mobile phones. It's the mobile phone that's to blame. I don't think that causes AIDS or diabetes. I, you know, I'm not a techie. I don't read Wired. I find them very woke and annoying. But maybe, again, maybe she's, she knows something I don't know about the, about the mobile phone causing the use of abuse and exploitation in Hollywood. She's go, goes on about how we used to have privacy, but now we go to restaurants, clubs, and paparazzis everywhere. Everyone is a paparazzo. There's no privacy. The media uses it for clickbait and they profit. The voracious tabloid happy, public eats it up with a spoon so they can feel better about their own lives. Now it's your fault. You're in a greedy, needy public looking at pictures. You shouldn't. You put down that National Enquirer, put down that Star Magazine. Shame on you. You're to blame. That girl got diabetes and you, you are the problem. I like it. This is crazy stuff. She's mad because her husband's on trial for being an alleged pedophile. That's what she's mad about. I get it. That's probably extremely upsetting. The problem is not phones. It's not. They're not good. The cell phone's been a terrible influence on mental health for everyone. I concede that point. But when we're trying to get granular and diagnose what happened to the young Hollywood actresses, I'm going to guess that's about number 17 on the list if it's there at all. She says the real haunting question, the question haunting me is how do we fix our end? How do we fix or end this before someone else dies? Then she asks, where is our union in all of this? What is the SAG union going to do about diabetes? And frankly, what could it have done about Hayden Panettiere, whose problems were drug addiction, alcoholism, domestic violence, a mother who didn't love her. But, you know, other than a D-list actress allegedly saying get into bed with that guy on some ship. But that's not like we're not talking about the Hollywood director and the casting couch and Harvey here, all of which is a huge problem. I conceded. I'm not trying to say otherwise, but which like in the cases that she's raising that have really gotten her so outraged, this stuff actually wasn't to blame. So like, I'm really not following her, except I am because I know this is all just a cover for her to try to look like she's an avenger of victims when in fact she's married to somebody who appears to be a victim. Again, he's denied the claims, not talking about the trial right now, even that criminal trial. Again, talking about this, these women, the litany of women who she completely dismisses to George Stephanopoulos completely. Then she goes on to say the following. Oh, she wants to get everybody together. Drew Barrymore, Ellen Dakota Fanning, Jodie Foster, Brooke Shields, Sarah Jessica Barker, Reese Witherspoon. I don't know a bunch of others I've never heard of. And she wants it. No one's going to do this for us. Maybe one solution is for us. And I love how she wants in the company of Drew Barrymore, Sarah Jessica Parker, Jodie Foster. She can't lick their boots. Those other women have gone on to have thriving, great adult careers as well. You're not on that list, sweetheart. They're not going to take your call. I have news for you. Then she says we should all get together and we should share ideas and ways we might be able to lobby to support these young women. Okay. I'm going to help you. If they actually do talk to you, I got a suggestion for the kickoff meeting. How about when they come forward and say that they have been physically abused on an audition in somebody's trailer or on a stage, we listen to them and at least engage in a good faith attempt to believe them. Okay. That's your, your side's rules. Believe all women. I don't say that. I say, yes, good faith attempt to listen and probe. That's, that's what they're entitled to. And I because my husband said they're not true, okay? He lost his defamation case against the lawyers who brought that one girl's claim. He had to pay their attorney's fees because his claim was deemed so frivolous. Your own assistant, who knows you too well, alleges he's continuing the pattern up until recent years. This is like in Tim's late 50s. He was allegedly doing that to the assistant. And I'm thinking, like, I haven't seen Eliza Roberts, sister-in-law of Julia, running all over America just randomly accusing men. But she did seem pretty animated about your husband as she and five witnesses came forward to support the 17-year-old claiming she'd been abused on the set of Little Big League and multiple others did too. So I just, I'm thinking this would be square one for stopping the abuse and the patterns, Melissa, as you're going to share ideas and ways we might be able to support these young women. Maybe we sit down, she goes on, with the heads of the studios and the networks and have real conversations about minutes. She's litigating exploitation. However, could we, again, again, this is so, all right. So why do I even care about what Melissa Gilbert is saying? Because you have to see the glowing coverage that this generated for her. Like people, completely lazy-ass reporters not doing their homework. USA Today, Melissa Gilbert calls for real change after Hayden Panettiere death. People Magazine, Melissa Gilbert advocates for better protection of child stars in the wake. If Hayden Panettiere's death. Deadline, Melissa Gilbert calls on unions to protect child actors after Hayden Panettiere's death. Something's got to be done. Hollywood Reporter, same. TMZ, they didn't even mention the allegations against Busfield. At least those other publications at least mentioned that he's on trial right now for alleged child molestation. TMZ didn't even mention that. It seems like you should mention. The only one who got it right, the only one, was the Daily Mail. This is their headline. Little House on the Prairie's Melissa Gilbert. Melissa Gilbert calls on Hollywood to protect child stars after Hayden Panettiere's death while her own husband is accused of on-set molestation. They put it right in the headline and that is the correct thing to do. So, I do think there's a massive problem in Hollywood with the exploitation of children. With the serial sexual abuse of young women and more mature women as well in many cases. I don't think Melissa Gilbert is the answer to that problem. I think her hands are too unclean. She's been too knee-jerk defensive of what I think is her pervert husband. And I think most of us just want to see Melissa Gilbert skulk away and stop pretending that she hasn't been hashtag part of the problem. Because she has. We saw it in that Stephanopoulos exchange. That will conclude my thoughts on Half Pint. That's how I'll remember her. I enjoyed those years. And we'll see you again tomorrow when we are joined by the one, the only, Dr. Leonard. Sacks. He's back on with his new book. Love this guy. This is the child expert and parenting expert. And every time we have him on, my email explodes with gratitude from moms and dads who just find his wisdom plentiful and spot on. Okay. Look forward to that. And I will see and talk to you all tomorrow. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear. Today's episode was brought to you by SuperSure.