Evaluación formativa con Manolo Fernández

[Music] Hello everyone, this is Formation and Innovation. I am Carlos Morón, and this is a few of the services of Formation and Innovation at the University of Málaga, where we talk about current issues, science, culture, innovation, education and everything that arises in our activities around education and educational innovation. Today we have with us Manuel Fernández Lávez. He is a professor at the Department of Diplomacy and School Organizations at the University of Málaga. Together with Noelia Alcaraz, he has imparted a couple of courses to our professor on the topic of evolution. He is the director of the strategic category of iSport of the UMA, editor in the magazine "Education of the UMA". He is a teacher, a psychologist, he has been a professor of Diplomacy at the University of Cádiz, a doctor at the University of Málaga. Hello Manolo. Hello Carlos, how are you? Before anything, before talking about the topic that concerns us, I would like to tell you something more about you. Talk about your passions, where you are, what you dedicate yourself to free time, ask him why he has stolen a piece of my life, what a beautiful song. Talk about you. Man, now you have put me in a tessitura where I started singing. Well, I think you have said at least all the academics that never say much about one, perhaps. Of course, that's why I would like to know that we all know a little more about the people, Manuel Fernández. Well, I am very freaky about education and I think that the term "freaky" describes me quite well. In the sense that I like my job a lot, I like to investigate a lot, I like to work a lot, I like to be in contact with teachers, teachers, teachers of all educational stages, and I also dedicate a lot of time to divulging, because I think it's a bit of an abandoned job at the level of research and at the university, and this would be enough for other subjects. But yes, I like it a lot, and I like to associate myself with, well, one of the reasons why I am part of the Dime Collective, I think you have to compromise with things, try to transform them, and that's what I always dedicate myself to. I would like to ask you, why did you end up getting into education? How did someone end up studying pedagogy? Let me tell you that, for me, studying pedagogy seems freaky to me, and I am a pedagogue. But how did someone end up saying, "I'm interested in knowing how to educate, how to teach, how to learn"? Well, in my case as well, I don't know if you ask me why I know it or if I don't know it, but in my case it's very curious, because one of the examples of vocation, understand the irony of the word, I was going to be a doctor, my vocation was to be a doctor. The only thing that I have left now in the letter, which is that it gives me peace of mind in the sense that I am very a doctor, but I ended up in a bad situation in the Magisterium, because, well, I did a bachelor's degree in science, and in the first bachelor's degree I had the best grades in the university. In the second bachelor's degree I discovered what it was like to leave school, and I ended up in five. So I introduced myself to the selection without studying, I suspended it, I have a 332 and I am a doctor, and it was the last promotion that I entered Melilla to study Magisterium without a grade, because I was born in Melilla, the University of Granada, and because I refused to study a summer of selectivity, which is what my father proposed to me, and as you can imagine, that was a source of conflict, and that's my story. I discovered vocation, if I don't like anything of this term, studying. Fundamentally here in Málaga, when I came to do psychopedagogics, thanks to Kiko Murillo and Miguel Sola, who discovered me in a wonderful profession. Both gave me a grade, both Kiko and Miguel, and the topic of vocation. Well, it's also a heritage, I think it has a lot to do with how Kiko and Miguel were thinking about the topic, which is an exciting topic, because it's complex, it gives you a little head spin. I always say that maybe, for me, look, we usually give you, when we misunderstand evaluation and think about qualification, we assume that it always goes to the end of the process. And the result of that, I think, is that in study plans, the super-evaluation signatures are usually put at the end, and I think that an ideal signature to start with, first of all, a master's, first day of class, to evaluate. Yes, yes, yes. Miguel Sola, we talked. I'm curious, I met Miguel because we were both in the casting committee of a TV program in the south, which was about education. And then I met him there, I did it, I did guides, I did interviews, and so on. And I did an interview with Miguel about the topic of vocation, precisely. And I still remember how he defined vocation. He said, "Evaluate is to make a value judgment with respect to some criteria previously defined." That was his definition. What do you think of that definition? Because it's the same... I got out of there, of course, of course, and I also know that Miguel is completely agree with it. For me, evaluating has to do with, fundamentally, with a question that is to collect systematic information. And it is very important that we understand that it is systematic, it is not worth it, I'm not seeing it. And I think the key here is that we talk about, of course, collecting information about what. Because automatically, we all think about what our students have learned. And that's very good, but it's impossible to know that no one has learned. So that's what gives us a return to the process of evaluation. I have two questions to ask you regarding what you have said. Why is it necessary to evaluate? Why is it so important? Of course. Why is it so important? Why should it be so important? If we understand how the learning is evaluated, the question that I already said is impossible... And why is it impossible? There is a moment. You have pointed it out, but... I think this would be the first step, not the first break. Let's see, I always find myself in the same example. The most modern machine that the human being has right now, to know what happens in the brain, is called functional magnetic resonance. And what gives us information is what part of our brain receives more oxygen and more blood sugar. This added to the fact that we have a certain idea, and it's very important that everyone understands that it's a certain idea, because these are theories that are changing a lot, about what each part of the brain is dedicated to. We have information on a heat map level, on what issues and what activation there is in the brain, but not on what meaning they are working on there. Therefore, knowing in an exact way what our student learns, me in my class, without functional magnetic resonance, what it is called "ohymmetra", or using a series of tests that measure reproductive fidelity, academic performance, that what psychology tells us is that it doesn't have to do with learning. This is also very important. There are other factors that explain a lot more. Let's clarify, if I put 10 counts of two numbers to a child, and I get six of those counts right, I can say that I have learned in a quantity of 60%. Can I measure their learning? No. No, you are not measuring there. In fact, the proof is that many times anyone who doesn't listen. We are talking about a very instrumental issue, which is a sum, but we have all learned, we have not certified that we have learned a lot of things, of which we don't only remember, but we would not know what to use when we know them. Therefore, that is not to learn. It is to reproduce certain issues, and that has a survival in memory. We could talk a lot about learning, if you want to see how things last in memory, but I understand that it is not the sense. So, that does not indicate that a person has learned. What it indicates is, until a person is able to reproduce in a specific moment, a question, in this case, very mechanical, okay? I continue to be a bit of a devil lawyer, and I am going to ask you a question, I am going to explain a little bit more the twist. If you will not forget what you have supposedly learned, that you say you have not learned it, I could, in any case, observe certain learnings and the conducts that that person has now, and that he did not have before. That is, if he has modified his way of doing things, he is supposed to have learned something, right? Well, I would have a conductor, of course. I am a constructivist, or even the conductive, right? Even the conductive conducts. Even, I like this a lot, and this gives an exclusive post-conductivism. I think they have many things in common with constructivism, I mean, there is a whole horizon that we can explore one day. The short answer would be no. Why? Well, because the important thing is the meaning that is behind the determination of conducts, and this is the classical conductive criticism. A same conduct that emits a human being can be radically different for reasons. Because, in the end, what I can learn is, I really like the word that Pere Gómez used, which is "significant negotiation". I mean, there is a series of meanings outside, in the information with which they put me in contact at school, and I have a series of meanings inside, which are the fruits of the experience in my head, and how to negotiate, how to combine those meanings, would be, in some way, the definition of learning. There is an advantage in thinking that conducts can, in some way, determine what has happened to learning, and that can be measured. Of course. I mean, I can put a note. Of course. So, I'm evaluating it in a more objective way. Well, the objectivity has little to do with this. Even within that paradigm, which would be a very conductive vision of education, and which I have already emphasized, there is little objective. I mean, I always say this a lot. A objective test is a radiography. And even so, I'm sure some people have had some experience in which a doctor with radiography could have made some mistakes. But that's an objective test. There is a lot of study. I always talk about the classic of Fernández Pérez, but there is a very recent one, with a very broad sample that was made by Gortázar, in which it was clearly seen how the qualifications were pointed out in a smaller way, people of lower social classes, when the professor knew his name. Look at this, right? Look at this. I mean, there is a whole series of failures in the qualifications that show that there is no objective. And I also think that this is healthy. I mean, for me, the melon is to understand that education is social science. What happens in a classroom is that they should not make experimental questions of causality. They help the research. But man, everything is in a very broad quarantine. Everything is very subjective. And I think that from there we have to address the understanding of the teacher's act and the evaluation, of course. We are seeing then that there are two antagonistic terms, evolution and qualification, which mean different. Of course, antagonistic, and look, because the qualification at all levels is always anti-educational. It goes against the educational process, while the evaluation... But sorry, that has never been said. It is said that the grade, for example, can cause a greater interest, a greater motivation in the student, so that he can play with it to help. Of course, of course. Surely any student, when they have put a zero, he has felt a three, he has felt super motivated. Because, in addition, the subject is a confusion of which is always taken advantage, especially the economists of education, who have sent a greeting from here. It is not motivation, but motivation for what? Motivation, which is to approve, because approving is a different process to learn. It also requires very different processes, to learn is a process that requires intrinsic motivation, that is, it has to be... It has to have a very important part of voluntariness, that the person wants to learn, that he wants to dedicate time, and this any person who does not listen and spends time with a young person will understand which is the good paradigm to learn, the one that produces quality learning. That is what I want to know about this. So, the student's work should be in progress to produce those conditions. When we talk about the fact that the note produces motivation, and of course, it is intrinsic motivation, very of the driving, but the motivation there is to approve, and when there is a motivation to approve, there are a lot of behaviors that are not good, to cheat, to hide. Ok, so the note, or to make a copy of the note, does not favor spaces, conducts, times, situations, that favor the learning, that is anti-educational. What you are saying invites you to think that you should not qualify. In fact, you should not. In any case, maybe the qualification has some meaning at some point, right? For me, the qualification has no meaning at any point, in terms of what we are talking about. It is not prejudicial and it is not useful for learning. I understand that, evidently, at least, it should be absolutely out of the mandatory section of the teaching, because that is where it seems to me that you do not have a foot in your head, right? We are talking about a mandatory section for everyone and the whole city. Then, well, we understand that the selection process has to be arbitrated, and we understand that these selection processes are very arbitrary and not objective. We see it from before, and I hope that in the university, or in the mandatory stages, there has to be some kind of selection. Well, as long as we understand that they are very arbitrary and that they have little or nothing to do with learning. In some way, it is illicit that any university teacher has to I do not know how to say it certify the aptitude of that person to get out of the university with an attitude. That is, if you are a medicine teacher, you will not allow someone who is not trained to have an apt in their qualification. Illicit, but not sensate. I mean, I mean, I mean, I understand the mechanism, but I do not think that the education work is necessary. And I will try to explain because I think it is important. I think it puts the accent where it should not be. That is, if we already know that the learning can not be measured, the option of certifying it where it appears. Well, the only possibility to guarantee the maximum learning is to work as best as possible in the signature. Work as best as possible for learning the best, not for qualification. So, of course, putting the accent in your absence in the sanction, in the qualification or in the certification that we have already said before, that puts the accent in the things that do not lead to a good scenario for learning is harmful. Where should we put the accent? In the quality of the processes that take place in the classroom. And there is where the evaluation is understood if it has much to say how better I what I do in my classroom with skill, this is key. Now it is in me, not in the classroom. Do I have to put the accent to start the chicken or to lean on what Miguel Acuelsal said? That image is very clear. Now, I am very concerned as a teacher so that anyone who does not listen understands what I do with my student and what opportunities of learning he offers. That is crucial to me. I give him 200 laps, I put all the energy there. Certify that they have learned or not. I have to do it because the university forces me. But I try to do it putting the best, the least possible energy. And also explain to the students in these terms. With which they can relax and we can dedicate time to what is important to learn. Because then there is that interest I think there is an interest, I do not know what you think in confusing evaluation qualification. I think there is an interest because there is a question of evident control. That is to say, the qualification of a control instrument for everyone. I am not a teacher, social classes, power, I would study for other podcasts. But above all, I think it has to do and I am going to be very clear, I am going to throw stones at my ceiling with a very improved work that we do in the Faculty of Education. That we are not able to transform all this enormous experience that any person who arrives to a study of education. We are now 18 years old, 5 hours a week, sorry, 5 days a week, I am not a teacher. And of course, destroying that confusion between evaluation and qualification is complicated, but it is our job. - What does "formative evolution" mean? - Well, it has to be an evaluation that allows you to form who does it, in this case I am the teacher, and who receives it, in this case the student. And for me it has to do with what we talked about before, because that is what allows to improve or have better options on what we do in the classroom. What I was saying at the beginning, collect systematic information of what is happening in the classroom, if the study I described to you are also interesting, if it is relevant, if the material I give you is appropriate, if the problems that I am working with with them are problems that really feel that they have connection with their field of study. All this information, if it is true, and this is also from Trumelón, it allows me to improve what happens. And to return it to them and to them so that they make a very valuable process. The famous "meta-cognition". - I am going to try to summarize a little what I understand is your posture about this. There are two key concepts, the qualification that is intended, let's say, that the learning can be measured, something that you say is not possible. And the evolution, which is understood as a process, not as a final, of improvement, fundamentally. And therefore, it is a continuous process, therefore continuous evolution, and that it is intended for the training of the people who are intervening in the educational act, in the evaluated act. But is this the practice? - I do it every day. Every day, of course. Well, there is only one goal. It is not that I have to qualify and measure the learning that is impossible. Even the cognitive-conductual psychology, which knows that the learning cannot be measured, and that they insert it through academic performance, and that this inference is very controversial. Going back to the practice, of course, I do it constantly. What worries me all the time is, of course, I cannot measure the learning, but we do know that conditions are more decisive for a more quality learning to occur. So, I spend all day with my students collecting information about how these conditions are. For example, we spend every day a day of class, in which they can freely comment, anonymously, all the sensations they have in the classroom, even calling us for everything, okay? We have an absolutely anonymous questionnaire that is called "Caixate of the Signature". It cannot be more clear. They can enter and say, "Man, it's not stupid, and I don't know who said it, because it is very important to guarantee the student the anonymity. We make them upload the tutorial to ask them, "Hey, how are you going with the signature? What problems do you have? What is happening? With respect to the content, with respect to the activities. We use Twitter many times, although it is less and less, so that they can freely organize in a hashtag which issues are more relevant than the signature, which also gives us many clues. We normally stop once a half course to force them to fill us with information about the content, the materials, all this kind of information that we collect systematically. We have also experimented with diaries, we have been working in that line for many years, which allows us to detect and optimize the work of the classroom. And that is what makes me and her to learn more that the work is as optimized as possible. So, of course, there is the sign. But in the end we must put a note. Of course. And how do we do it? Well, I know Noelia and I, my colleague and I always say that we use our recipe because it is what we are comfortable with, but everyone who decides. For us, it is not so important how we take those two processes, but to be aware that the qualification processes intoxicate the evaluation processes. Why? Because if I need information, that information that we collect, and that information is associated with a note, we never know if that information is waiting. A very quick example. Is the participation important in my class? Of course. Why? Because it tells me if she and I are very interested in what we are doing there, if the topic is relevant. If, as it seems very important to me, now I give it 0.1, I will never know if they participate because it is interesting or because of the note, the principle of uncertainty to the maximum. So, what do we do with Noelia? What we do with Noelia is to separate everything possible. There is only one production at the end of the semester, that is the one with the notes, which is related to the work of the class, I mean, it does not have to do with the things that they do there, that nothing of what is there has to do with the note. Some criteria, this is very important, very transparent and very affordable. Because, of course, if we tell them that nothing matters here for the note, but then, obviously, you are going to shit, because I live in tension. So, from there, what happens? There is something wonderful, which is that our unit forgets that there is a note in the signature. Sometimes a hero arrives and says, "Hey, who asked you to do something for the note?" "How was it?" They forget, they want to say that they have been all the time, pending of what we did in class, to learn. So, to us, it seems that this is wonderful. And that is what we do, separate it and a lot of transparency and a lot of honesty with the unit. And then, well, we are going to talk about the criteria. Those criteria of evolution. Are there levels in those criteria? Well, they are very clear criteria, of course there are levels, I mean. I ask you about the following. There is a tool, which is the rubric, which makes you put an axis, those criteria and other levels. It is wonderful as a machine to produce a note. Of course, the rubric charges the devil, right? It would be... Of course. I am doing it. In fact, look, the other day, we were valuing it with a rubric for another thing and we were in the two computers with which we were saying, "Oh, my God, this is so detailed." That in the end you forget what you are reading, what is interesting. No, look, it seems to me that it is not a matter to give any clue to anyone who does not listen. If I go back to the paradigm of "I have to measure everything with my finger" it is always a recommendation that we have to get out of there. What do we do? We put very clear criteria for anyone who does not listen. We ask for an essay, a reflection on an activity that has been carried out in the classroom. So, from there, we tell them, "Express yourself well, you do not lack orthography, argue and use the concepts of the signature, that is to say, and cite reading." Very clear things, very simple. Is it true that there are people who argue more or less? Of course. Is it true that there are people who use more or less reading? Who uses more concepts than others? Of course. But look, one or eight of us can be very different from the other. Why? Because one argued more, the other used more concepts, the other had some... So, this is what we do, a summary, back to the students, of these are the characteristics of your essay. But look, we tell them, this is no longer educational. This is used to improve how you have a qualification, but it no longer has to do with your learning, because here it will give me the score. What you want is a score, an instrument, a medium for an end. So, our advice would be, do not put so much energy into the qualification, that if they are always controlled processes, and that energy that is left when you put it in there, put it in the evaluation, that it does influence learning. And it has happened to you that in that final essay you have detected a flagrant copy made by Artificial Intelligence, for example, which is the most current one, and you feel bad, because really, I think that your situation, just as you are explaining it, is not to feel like a guardian of your past, your past, that you have to put precisely the educational work in the previous presentation. But... Well, I don't know, right? Well, the first thing I am going to send is a message that is going to be controversial, is to try to copy. I mean, everyone, the university professors, and with a brilliant curriculum, who are not listening, have copied or tried it at some point. Another thing is that they catch you. Of course, they catch people. With Artificial Intelligence, maybe I will show it to you. Why? Because the task we put is so connected to a work, a design of an activity that they have done for children and girls who have lived, and they have to put an example, and they have to relate. It is more difficult for them to do it. And if they do it, hey, if they are using Artificial Intelligence, to relate to the concepts of nature, with what you have done, hey, well, for you. You know, it is a more tool that seems to me to be sensitive. So, of course, I am very relaxed. And I know that they have suspended you. We always say that we have to win the suspense. I push, and that is a quick way to get it, right? I catch you copying, and the rules are very clear. This is like Spiderman, a great power, with great responsibility. We give you a lot of freedom, and that is precisely why I do not have the hand to suspend anyone. They are very clear things, if you have tried it, but you have caught you. I think we have given you a good review of the evolution. Do you have anything else that you think is interesting? Man, give this, give this for a podcast session. Man, me, thinking about anyone who does not listen and who says, "Vallados zumbaos", right? I think the interesting thing here, for me, the door to the entrance is to turn this around to measure learning. And then the next turn of Tuerca is in Vale, if I cannot measure learning. Where do I put the interest? For me, this was what made me a feeling of disassociation. And then I think it is very interesting to try very specific things, very small things, to dare with some little thing, some change, see how this result gives, and from there, growing. Because many times we throw ourselves, "Come on, now I'm going to remove everything you know." And of course, there is the failure of the tyron, which does not authorize anything that can be done. No, maybe it is not as we thought. So my advice would always be little and less, very escalated, very sequenced, very little ambitious, that the ambition is at half-long term. I think it would be a good advice to start. Very good, well, nothing, thank you very much Manolio. Pleasure, pleasure to thank you. Well, up to here, innovation training, a podcast of the innovation training service We want to thank Manolio Fernández, who you can find, on @nolocatorce, on X or Twitter, as if in advance, that you have a good week. We will return to hear from here, and you can contact us through FICAST, @uma.es, F-I-C-A-S-T, @uma.es. See you soon. (upbeat music)