‘Euphoria’ Season 3, Episode 4 and ‘Star Wars’ Streaming Numbers. Plus, Pitching Literary Classics as TV Shows.

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Visit Amazon.com. slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply. I need supports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk. Now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheRinger.com, and joining me in the studio, his pinky toe is a metaphor, it's Andy Greenwald! That was a good Euphoria reference. Thank you, brother. Today, we are going to talk about Euphoria. Episode four, we're going to talk a little bit in a roundabout way about Netflix's Lord of the Flies. For those not watching, you're doing the Windhorst fingers. Those boys are on an island. Why is that? Oh, wait. What are they eating? We're going to talk a little bit about Netflix's Lord of the Flies, not the actual show, but the text. Elite. And some things around that. I had a fun little project for us to do on a sleepy little manic Monday. You look great. Wow, thanks. One of my best weekends in a minute. At least one of the best Saturdays. I want to talk to you about this. This is important. Thank you for giving me the opportunity. Every once in a while. You know what? I just stretch the arm out, and I can still hit 90 on the gun, you know? God damn it, you're the best. Saturday, Adam Scott in Hokem, the movie. Pretty good. Meaning you saw the movie. Adam Scott didn't personally. No, Adam Scott did not come to my house and show me Hokem, and then talk to me about Severance. Approachable guy, though. It's possible. Yeah, sure. He and I would have plenty to argue about in the REM replacements wars I had. Exactly. And then I went to go see some Sixers on my TV at my home. You're phrasing all this super weird. I know. Hold on. You sound like Steve Carell in 40-Year-Old Virgin talking about having a good time. This is those bags of sand. So you watched the Sixers game. I watched the Sixers beat the Celtics for the first time in a playoff series since 1982. It was surreal? We're going to talk about it. I want to get into everything about it. And then I went and saw the band Basement play in El Cerrito in basically a parking lot, and it fucking ruled. Now, do you go in the pit still? No. Still, no. Still, no. I can't. First of all, it was really funny. I saw a guy beforehand. Me and my buddy Jeremy were talking to this dude, and he was just like, I got two kids. And they're in the pit somewhere. He was just like being a dad, you know, and like, he was a really nice guy. And like 40 minutes later, I just watched that man get his head knocked off by a guy doing a somersault off the stage. And he took that L and then just started screaming the lyrics back at Basement. And I was like, this guy's still got it. I have some semblance of it. You've got none of it. Zero. But did I ever have it? A question for another pod. What's the most insane you've gone at a show? Oh, one time Bell and Sebastian played a deep cut from Tiger Milk. A town hall. And I was seated already because we all were. But when the violins hit. Whew. Yeah. Yeah. Makes me take a deep breath just like I did then. Yeah. Have a cup of mint tea. No, for digestion. Yeah. Sure. Sorry. I just got lost in memories. So yeah, that was what I got down with. This is why, I mean, there are many reasons why you're undisputed, aka the king. But like we were texting as we often do, generally, but particularly during sporting events. But for such a momentous occasion, you were relatively understated and quiet during game seven. And I wasn't sure if it was nerves or if it was you were busy. And then I didn't hear from you for a minute. And then I fired up the old Instagram machine. And the stories from CR, it's always an adventure. Actually, no, it's rarely an adventure. It's almost invariably, it's you being clever and charming on a podcast. Yeah, I usually keep that. Unless. Life is for the living. Unless you've had the second Modelo. And you'll be like, here's a song by the band Karate that I'm listening to right now. And I'll be like, he's having a good night. Yeah. But you posted a mosh pit in El Sereno. Yeah. I was like, man, that's awesome. It was a good weekend. Did you feel good Sunday morning still? Yeah. Yeah, brother. Yeah. I didn't really get after it on Saturday night. You know, it was clean living. It was victories after victory after victory. I didn't feel the need to like cloud it all up with. A victory is winning. I was like, is victory. It's like a new non-alcoholic beer brand that you were crushing. There's victory ale, isn't there? Yeah, but I think that's alcoholic. I was thinking of like athletic or whatever that's called. John Mulaney's N.A. What's up with that? Is there a John Mulaney cocktail, like mocktail thing? No, no. He is, I don't know if he's co-owner, but he promotes a non-alcoholic beer brand. Good for him. I think so. Yeah. I like a little wheat soda now and again. You know? I have like a weird way into this project I wanted to do. So today, here's what's on the agenda. Lord of the Flies came out weirdly today. I don't really remember many Netflix shows dropping on Mondays, but here we are. Four episodes written by Jack Thorne, who did Adolescence, so I'm very excited to check it out. Although, I would say, say, if 100% obviously would be the most excited I could possibly be to watch a show, I'd put this at about 70 just because Lord of the Flies is something I'm very familiar with. Obviously. The early years of Grantland. No, but you know, everybody, most people read Lord of the Flies at some point. We all talk about holding the con. Between 6th and 9th grade, it's an introductory text when people are trying to teach you about characterization, foreshadowing, metaphors, allegories, and not to hang out with boys unsupervised. It got me thinking a little bit about classic literature as intellectual property, as debased as that is, and some of our bigger titles out there, both, you know, the more sensational box office, smashing things like Star Wars, Happy May the 4th, and literary classics that still hold some sort of market share of imagination for people where when they see Howard's End or this, like, they'll be like, yeah. Sorry, I just leaned in. Yes. I'll check it out. It's the most alive I've been in weeks. Something really funny happened as we were about to start recording as Hollywood Reporter published some numbers about Disney Plus streaming in regards to Star Wars. And, you know, I just had this conversation with Sean. We did some Star Wars rankings. This is going to come out on the big picture today, I believe. And we had, like, a long conversation about the state of Star Wars. But I wanted to bounce a couple of things off of you because from this data, and you can find it in the Hollywood Reporter. This is before we get into the classic literature. Yeah, I'm going to get there in a second because I think that these things come together, I hope. There's some numbers I wanted to talk to you about with the Star Wars stuff. First of all, the number one, I guess, how would you describe it? They put out a top 10 most streamed Star Wars title. As of 2025. They is Disney. Disney, yeah. And, well, Nielsen. Oh, okay. And Andor is number one. Wow. Now, that would make sense because Andor is sort of the freshest, newest thing that they put out in some ways. And the only good thing. Sure. It's also the most critically acclaimed thing. So if people are looky-loos with Disney Plus subscriptions for their kids, they might check out Andor. You can watch Andor and not really know a lot about the sequels or the prequels. Or a bunch of other Star Wars stuff you can get into it without being a Star Wars completist. You may not know the answer to this, but do you, because I didn't see this article, do you think Nielsen's numbers are skewed in any way in terms of dynamic engagement? Because I would have thought, it wouldn't surprise me if Andor is up there just in terms of recency. And watching one probably means you're watching 16, which may be a larger engagement. Number than everyone who has Disney Plus watching Empire Strikes Back once, if that makes sense. I do understand what you mean. And I'm sure that there are reasons for all of this. There are a couple of interesting factoids that come out of it that Andor remains number one, even if you open it up to the first quarter of 26. Which I suppose is also like maybe end of the year, Hosanna's throne at Andor. And maybe people being like, wow, I guess it's finally time to check out Andor. In fact, Sean did check out the second season of Andor. To like complete it and was blown away. Does he know that we liked it? He does, he does. The other thing that was shocking about this list was how poorly, not poorly, but there are no sequels in like the top 10 here. You mean 7, 8, 9, not the prequels. Yeah, no Force Awakens, no Last Jedi, no Rise of Skywalker. Which might have something to do with their recency. So people may feel. less compelled to rewatch. We've done a couple of pods on the big picture recently about stars we did a star wars draft and then a star wars ranking so i went back and re-watched some of the sequels and i was struck by how their very very modern storytelling style of like constantly running into a room and trying to solve a puzzle that's jj not quite yeah yeah doesn't really lend itself to re-watching it's not a great observation not a lot of moments that i feel like they breathe the ryan johnson movie obviously has some of that it's a um it's good i i really really like the last jedi um there is a large sequence in it that i find unwatchable which is the like casino uh racehorse bizarre uh segment but for the most part like you know those those movies were enjoyable enough to watch in the theater and i don't really feel super compelled to revisit them i think those numbers kind of they kind of pan out that way like they support that that idea generally if you have children in america probably including the guy who is concussed with the hardcore show like you have a disney plus subscription for the child pacification purposes and or is something that mom and dad might want to dive into as a as a perk yeah if they have the service um here's where i want to go with this though mandalorian and grogu is coming out at the end of this month uh starfighter next year uh these are like the two major star wars things on the books you know kai clipped you talking about how you'll probably go see mando and grogu and i did look at the the first comment on it within like an hour of it posting with someone wrote cr please see it on opening day and i was like is this josh damero's burner i just i it's just an incredible and it's still i don't know why i'm surprised but that is a wild level of specific fandom sure they're like you person on the internet you must support this franchise on opening day with your dollars um there's not as much volume obviously like we're not going to be there's not as much volume obviously like we're not going to be there we're not going to be there there's not as much volume obviously like there was a point on this podcast where i felt like we had a star wars news story to talk about every day i know that was good for our numbers and there was trailers to talk about and there was new shows to talk about and obviously there was a little bit of like fatigue with that aside from ahsoka season two i don't think i know of any tv series that they're currently working on you know no second season of acolyte no second season of skeleton crew right and or is complete so we're kind of at this weird crossroads with star wars where i think they're going to see how they're going to see how they're going to see how they're going to see how viable mandalorian is is an ongoing project and they have finally ate the first new piece of like here's some new characters at knowing star wars i'm sure that there will be echoes if not actual straight-up cameos from older characters here's what i want to talk to you about you mean in mando or in starfighter starfighter yeah starfighters that's the hope that's the new hope it is the new hope how viable is this stuff at this point do you think do you think the window is at all closing and it's not closing and it's not closing and it's not closing and it's not closing on let's revive jedi knight stuff let's bring back like the skywalker name like or do you think that this is something that's just always going to be like in the background or foreground of culture and they're always going to be like pumping something out i think they're in enormous trouble and i i say that as someone who's worked inside the building i say that as someone who engages with the content still both on the podcast and as a fan and i say that as someone who's the parent of two kids who have zero interest in anything coming out of a galaxy far far away like cannot be bothered with any of it even like bespoke pieces of entertainment that that might appeal to them or they might be culturally resonant they have demographic numbers on mandalorian and they said mandalorian shockingly like the two most interested groups were people aged 2 to 10 or people aged like 55 to 70 it was just like these two like old people who like used to watch gunslinger smoke and babies like is it like the beginning of international football matches when they walk out holding hands with the children just like let's all walk into the movie theater yeah or that's actually what the movie's about yeah although we don't know how old groku really is i think he's actually a contemporary of us you think he's in his late 40s i think so yeah can you tell i mean i think i have the same joyful attitude towards the world it's tough for us to find a a unique way to have the broader version of this conversation which is that we the things that we love and the things that we obsess over and the mechanisms with which we engage with them are wildly out of step from the same answers to that question for a generation 20 years younger than us um the degree to which something like one piece which is a you know manga and a netflix show that i know nothing about and probably will never know anything about but the degree to which that is a part of the conversation is a part of the conversation and i think that's a part of the the most popular franchise on planet earth and dwarfs anything star wars related in terms of active engagement and probably um merch and all that at this moment i don't have merch because there's the theme parks but and legacy people buying that stuff but so when we talk about star wars becoming relevant again and we talk about it being like oh maybe they'll have an amazing tv show or maybe there'll be a trilogy that resonates again it's actually already i think in kind of a boomer bubble of like for whom and at what how big can it go the the floor i don't think is that low because of the millions and tens of millions of people who will always love this stuff and give it a shot the floor and this is actually i think more of an indictment as i say it out loud is star trek in that like this is a reliable franchise that you can continue to mine and there will always be a certain number of people who engage with it now like i know how dramatic and foolish that sounds because even like mandalorian and grogu which is as we discussed last week like likely not to set the global box office or the imagination of a generation on fire is going to make half a billion dollars globally just by being star wars like i probably maybe yeah i mean 100 million 400 million like it's going to make a lot of money like well i think the big question is is it going to outperform solo i don't know i wonder though if the tight the the terror the white knuckle grip on the franchise that disney has had and that the various stewards of it have had over the the last 10 years may have been not fatal but may have been like ruinously damaging to the franchise because what it may have done and i'm not saying i would have argued for this i don't even know how one would have done this but if they had loosened the grip a little bit and they met with when they say they met with everyone to make star wars content they did like sure you know i think it's now officially reported like vince gilligan was in there like all the great creators of stuff that we like went in there for a meeting fincher all these people have had serious more than serious conversations about it but did they bring in the younger generation of people who didn't grow up on it and give them a pathway towards it you know how do you keep it fresh keep it new and keep it feeling like something that is vital i don't know the answer to that and i think all these legacy franchises are starting to founder against those rocks this episode is brought to you by amazon prime ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something like a last minute beach day a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for that's when prime same day delivery has your back getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so that you can actually join in on the moment instead of watching from the sidelines same day delivery it's on prime visit amazon.com slash prime to find millions of items delivered fast available in select areas terms apply the reason i'm trying to make this connection between classic literature and star wars is because i think star wars is oh i see what you're doing sorry it took me a second not quite in danger of but it faces the possibility of becoming classic literature when it comes to being it's it's gonna be uh kind of stuck in behind glass in a museum soon if they don't do something drastic and i think andor was drastic and andor was a you know project that lasted you know in terms of like the actual creative act of it was like a six six year project or whatever you know i think i think tony who says it's almost like a decade right his mind but i think he puts rogue one into that one in there if you don't really look i understand why they don't because it's like the bets are too big to not pay off right and you can't make a losing bet that then everybody walks away from the table permanently because of you can't you can't have them all be so like i'm so disappointed with what you've done that i don't want to experience that i'm not going to give you another chance but the thing about andor and the thing about the last jedi was that it actually tried playing with different storytelling yeah colors and painting with those colors and and saying like can star wars make you feel this way can star wars make you think about this is star wars just the frame but the house can be different every time what i think they decided was no that we don't like that experience we need to make a replicable everybody comes in we do the same thing there's a kid there's a there's a master there is then there is like a familiar story beats you can go in and you can relax as opposed to you can go to the theater and lean in and i think that's a really good point and i think that's a really good and i you know i don't even remember what the ndas were and i don't even think it's my place to say anything but the project that i was lucky enough to work on with our friend damon lindelof and justin brit gibson was about the act of a radical act within the expected hierarchy of a star wars universe right it was essentially running at the thing both on a meta level you could see what he was playing with but also the characters were saying why does it have to be this way sure and it was super biased i thought very very very exciting and you know in the fullness of time like i am am i extremely disappointed that that didn't happen for a personal professional and fan reasons? Hell yes. But to the point where you're saying about like being a steward of this and the risks you take, I understand. But that felt like a big moment of a decisive moment, you know? I would love to get Bob Iger's version of the Steven Soderbergh pitch for Ben Solo, which in the vacuum of nobody from Disney really commenting on this has kind of taken shape as, what was it? Who was the writer on it? Oh, it was, I think it was Jules Asner with Soderbergh and like Scott Burns or I can't remember. He was one of his dudes. It was Ed Solomon or Scott Burns. It was one of his. It was Ed Solomon, so it was probably Scott Burns. And, you know, this story has taken shape that Soderbergh was like, Adam Driver was in, we had a really, really good idea that was rounding into form as a script if it never actually became the first draft. And the enthusiasm of Lucasfilm, most importantly. It says along with writer Rebecca Blunt. That's Jules Asner, I believe. That's Jules Asner. And then it got to, because Steven Soderbergh uses all these pseudonyms for different things. I believe Rebecca Blunt is Jules Asner. Is Emily Blunt also Jules Asner? No. And then it gets up to Iger and Iger is just like, you got to be kidding me. Like Ben Solo is dead. Yeah. Now I think what he really meant was there's no way I'm reopening the can of worms that was the toxic fandom that surrounded all of those characters. And after getting pilloried for bringing Palpatine back, I'm not now bringing Ben Solo back. Right. That's my argument on behalf of Bob Iger. I'm happy to appear in public as his defense attorney. That's what we do on the show. We give voice to the voiceful. The people who have the loudest voices. We amplify those voices. We give voice to the guy who runs the Annenberg Center. But that is the perfect example of what we're talking about. We're like a really inventive filmmaker, a really interesting actor, a really cool idea, but would obviously be playing with like completely different tonal ideas than most Star Wars stuff right now. And they're like, yeah, we're not making that bet, dude. One thing that we say when we talk about TV is we constantly hold up HBO and FX as being unique unicorns in terms of having an entrenched development power structure that has been working together and developing things for a long time. And one thing that is, I think, under-discussed when we talk about the last five years of the show is that we're the tumult of who's holding, who's left holding the bag. Because this spans a time, not only of a massive industry upheaval and industry repositioning in terms of where you're pouring the content money, TV, streaming, oh no, we got to get back to movies, but it's the Iger, Chapek, Iger era. And the Iger era, Iger era 2.0 contained within it, one, the constant sense that Kathy Kennedy was going to be retiring at some point and stepping down and what the succession plan within her company was. But then also Iger stepping down, who was taking over his role and what that person would feel about it. So I do think that when you're talking about such a valuable property and the amount of time it takes to develop, produce, and release a film, you need five years of continuity to decide on a plan and then to be able to stick with the plan. The worst case scenario would have been projects that Iger or God forbid Chapek had approved or that Kathy had approved. And then the incoming leadership structure is like, actually, I'm going to actually, we think this is kind of whack. And then pull the plug on it. I think there was a cycle of that happening. I'm not saying I'm more optimistic about the next five years, but theoretically there will be consistency. I just wonder whether or not, say, Mandalorian and Grogu does fine, but winds up being maybe slightly better performing than Solo. Perhaps just because it doesn't have the cynicism around an Alden Ehrenreich type figure in it and doesn't have the chaos of switching directors mid shoot. So let's say- It does okay. And then next year, just off of Project Hail Mary vibes alone, Starfighter does pretty well, right? It very well may. I mean, also, let's throw this out there. What if it's good? Sure. I mean, it's entirely possible. But what I wonder is if there isn't a new story to tell on a franchise level where you're like, it's going to take multiple films to complete the arc of what we're trying to do here. And we've introduced these new characters that are going to change over the course of these movies. Does Star Wars- Star Wars essentially then become a very expensive modern version of things like Lord of the Flies, where everybody just broadly, even if you haven't read it, probably knows it's kids marooned on an island. It's an allegory for society. One of them is named Piggy and he has glasses, right? Like, I bet most people could probably dial that up even if they haven't, if they don't remember William Golding's novel, you know, line for line. Right. What stories that we- That we sort of hold as central, like, of course, well, this is canonical. We'll always have Star Wars. You sound like my dad. Are going to, in 20 years, look like East of Eden or E.M. Forster or what have you. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. I think it's very possible. I think what's interesting, though, is that for the- so you suggested we do an exercise where we look at the- whose list is it? It's the modern libraries. The MLA list of like the hundred greatest novels and then like thought about ones that were ripe for adaptation. But in so doing- In so doing, I was like, at no point did I look at the potential of adapting these books as an opportunity to like recreate them in amber as they were. Like what they are, you look at it and it'll be fun to go into the list and think about it. And I was like, which of these is ripe for some relevance? Which of these is ripe for reimagining or some sort of modern take on it? Because otherwise, why would you do it? Right. You know, and so that, I mean, that's ongoing. Like there's a, there's a, it's highly controversial in my household. Because the 2005 version is my daughter's favorite film. But Netflix has a Pride and Prejudice adaptation coming out next year. Jack Loudon, right? Jack Loudon and Emma Corrin and Olivia Colman. And but like, so my question is, why? Sure. Not in a negative way, but show me why. I'm curious why. But when you see, especially coming out of England, the maintenance, the classics maintenance that they do over there. Yeah. They're like, it's been 10 years. It's time for this. Totally. Now, funnily enough, I went through a bunch of these books in the, so this is the modern libraries list of the top 100 novels of the 20th century. So. And it's a pretty, fairly stodgy list, I would say. Very, very much so. And so we're not in the 21st century. We're not talking about No Country for Old Men and stuff like that. But we're also not looking at the 20th century with a particularly non-Harold Bloom 21st century view. There are a couple wild cards in there. Very few. But very few. Yes. The sheer number of books that are about a guy finding himself in Africa was shocking. Like, genuinely. Like, I didn't even know. I've read a bunch of these books, not even as a brag, but I didn't know even Saul Bellow was like, what if this middle-aged man found himself in darkest Africa? And they treated him as a prophet. Yeah. Like, a lot of that. Yeah. But, you know, I was looking at this list, and we'll put the list itself in the show notes. I can't even tell if I'm connecting the dots between the two. I think you got big brain from this weekend, and I love it. You're on this wave with me, though. Yeah. This is like doing a podcast with the fourth square and the Vince McMahon meme. You know what? It'll be funny if in 20 years you and I are doing this podcast at age 68 and we're like, what are some Star Wars stories that could use a TV adaptation? Is that how you're going to talk? Yes. Got it. Ever since a guy fell on me at a basement show at age 16. Yeah. At age 58. Going through this list, some of these titles are so, I don't know, memorable. They're so present in my mind, even if I haven't even read them. Yeah. That I, in my head, I was like, there has to have been seven or eight Lord of the Flies adaptations. Right. There's four on screen. Okay. There's a 60s movie. There is a foreign film. There's the 1990 movie, which is sort of, in my mind, the Balthazar Getty one. The one that I know of. And now there is this Jack Thorne adaptation, which, by the way, is getting wonderful reviews and sounds excellent. It just also sounds like it's very dutifully captures what's on the page. Not to add too much to what may already be a creaky bit before getting into it, but I think that the more relevant comp in this is something else that I worked on, which is Harry Potter. Which is, people are like, I'll explain it to you. It's about a wizard. Are you leaning in or out? Literally at 50%. 50%. I know. What if I told you he was a special little fella? I'm the undecided voter. Who's like, Janet Mills, Graham Plattner. You're the one. Yeah. Many people, many people, but this is not a straw Man argument, are like, why? Because the movies already exist. Yeah. And I think there are many reasons for it, and hopefully the show will speak for itself. But that is more in the line of, there isn't going to be a lot of iterating within the world, or within the IP, or within. Within the space, because the IP is very tightly controlled. So, is it more along the lines of, every 20 to 25 years, we get a new Howard's End, or we get a new Sense and Sensibility? Well, what if every 15 years we get a new Hope? It's beautifully done. No, but like. But I'm saying, like. But maybe if that's what you guys want, if we all just want Luke and Leia, let's just get two new cool people to play them. Yeah. And use new effects that we have. Who you got? Well, I'm not going to get into that game right now, because I spent way too much time casting Henry James novels. Right. So, Andy and I gave each other this little project to. I didn't do a lot of casting. I did a lot of show running. I did some casting. Hot out of the door, I have my cast, but then. Hot out the door. Classic Baker's talk. Go on. I feel like I'm having a mild stroke because I keep replacing words in cliches. You're like, healthy living, brother. No ill effects from the hardcore show. Okay, I'll go first with an idea. So like I said, we are taking from the Modern Library's top 100 books of the 20th century, and we're thinking about what of these old titles could use a fresh coat of paint. My number one draft pick here is Henry James' The Ambassadors. Look at you. By the way, we are covering the new episode of Euphoria in this pod, and we are leading with Chris's imaginary adaptation of Henry James' The Ambassadors. So this SEO shit, don't put it on me anymore. Show run by a man who has never run a show. Great. Named Noah Bombeck. Wow. This is a novel about a guy who, a widower, I believe. I can't remember if he's a widower or not, Lambert. I read it in college. Should we step down? No, I don't want to because, yeah, he's a middle-aged widower, and his new fiancee, who's pretty paid, is like, you got to go to Europe and find my ne'er-do-well son. So Lambert, the sort of main character, he's in his late 50s. This ne'er-do-well son is in his late 20s, and she's like, you got to go. You got to go to Europe. This is like 1903. Find my son, bring him back. He's got to start working at the family factory, running the family factory or whatever. He's got to inherit his family kind of mantle here. So, you know, this American goes off to Europe and finds this young man, and instead of finding a ne'er-do-well, finds a guy who's blossoming. And then this man himself, the widower, Lambert, blossoms himself and learns a lot about himself and his family. As he discovers, you know, new things about the old world. Is this in any way similar to when I started working at Spin in 1999 and you were still in Boston and you called me and you were like, how is it? And I'm like, it's pretty cool, man. And then you showed up. And you were like, which one of us is the ne'er-do-well younger son in this case? So I have no bomb back making a series about these people, and I have it set in contemporary times. Because I think there's something really interesting to be done with America's perhaps diminished role in the world. Perhaps diminished, yeah. To talk about Americans abroad and what that means in 2020-whatever, whenever you want to set it. This 58-year-old man, I'm mixed on this because I have an easy one, which is Billy Crudup, who's done Noah Baumbach work before, has led or appeared in several big series before. But Billy Crudup, it's like if you're asking somebody to go from being straight-laced to free, Billy Crudup, we know he can be free. There's no surprise there. So what about if Dr. Robbie's sabbatical just lasts a little longer? See, I was wondering where the juice was coming from. Where's Noah Wiley? Like, let's get Dr. Robbie on the bike to Europe. This is good. He would drown. And when he goes over there, he finds this young man. And the young man should be pleased. He should be played by. By the way, his name's Chad. He should be played by Chris Briney from Summer I Turn Pretty. Just appeared in Hacks recently, is obviously trying to, like, break out of, like, Teen Dream stuff. So let's put him in a Noah Baumbach. You had me. I'm doing the Jonas era now. Because here's the thing. When you started with this, I was leaning out. No offense. Yeah. But I was, like, trying to get in the mindset of a contemporary buyer in this town. And I was nodding off. You know? I. I. I can't say there's a lot of heat for the Baumbach vision right now. In terms of, like, well-heeled types. You just changed the agents, though. Well, okay. But CAA is not saying, Noah, you've been mismanaged all this time. What you need to do. Is a Henry James. Is a Henry James adaptation. I think UTA could have managed that for him just fine. But when you start populating it with contemporary people that have a fan base. Yeah. Who are people who are wanting to see their next step, this is why it's gonna work. One of the joys. One of the joys of this cast of characters is you've got a guy in late middle age, you've got a young man entering real adulthood that's played by Chris Briney, and then they're both equally sort of smitten with this 30. Late 30s French woman. Mm-hmm. Madame Vianette. And in this adaptation, she's played by Lea Seydoux. Oh. Okay. Now, are you taking that meeting yourself? No. No. Lea, bienvenue. I'd like to speak to you about some. Parlez-vous Henry James? I'd like to speak to you about some opportunities. So that's my pitch. Have you heard Basement? I believe is the way you say the band's name. That's my pitch for The Ambassadors. Yeah. How many episodes? Who are you trying to sell it to? I mean, I'd love it to be six. Mm. And I do wonder whether or not Apple TV is the only one who'd be like, hmm. Although they actually like ongoing series more than limited. What's the second season? They find another younger, ne'er-do-well, a little bit further east. And they go to like, lots poppin' in Belarus in a lot of the shows we've been watching. That's true. You think about that? You go, you give me one. I don't have a ton. So, did you ever read the book Appointment in Samara? I have this down too. Do you? Yeah, but this is like. Let's chop it up. So this is John O'Hara? John O'Hara, 1934 novel. Like, the, the, I read it recently. I don't know if you read it back in the day. But like, the book that people, the book that everyone thinks Fitzgerald wrote, but actually they're thinking about Fitzgerald's life, this is that book. It's about like one night in a Pennsylvania suburb, I mean, who among us, where a guy basically wildly circles the drain and drinks himself to death. It's like a social, it's a snapshot of a social class and culture and just ruinous mistake making. This is what your friends and neighbors should be. Yeah, this is right. This is right. And, and I think that when I, so it's in like Gibbsville, Pennsylvania, which no disrespect to our neighboring towns from where we grew up, I think what would be interesting would be to put it in a place like Beacon, New York or Maplewood, New Jersey. You can't take John O'Hara out of Pennsylvania. Yeah, yes. First of all, I can do what I want. He's dead. Sorry. But the reason being, the idea of this like, well-heeled but entrenched demimonde, like, again, no disrespect to the great work Governor Shapiro is doing. Like, I don't know how much of that is in Pennsylvania right now. Whereas I think it's interesting to explore these towns of people who have left the city and are very pleased with themselves. Listen, I'm among them for like being able to now have a yard and neighbors and like, look, we're performing America, but we're being, we're being cool and maybe polyamorous or whatever. In this house, we believe in Michael Clayton. Oh, a million percent. You said it among those lawns. Yeah. And then I, but then what was interesting, you actually helped me with this one. I don't know if you had a different setup, but I was trying to think of who are our best interlocutors who are our best interlocutors and examiners of long-term relationships and the cracks that can appear in things. And first I was like, is this an opportunity to hire one of the savage Brits like Jesse Armstrong or something? Or like one of the last great shows about marriage was the Americans. So I was like, would Joe Weisberg and Joel Fields come off the bench for this? But you gave me the right answer, which is Francesca Sloan off of Mr. and Mrs. Smith. Because I think maybe, and I don't know how you feel about the project writ large, but I was excited about the chance to inject some youth. Into this fairly stodgy list. Because I mean, this is Matthew Wiener coded. You know, like it is very much, I think Mad Men pulled from O'Hara. Yeah, that's right. And Cheever and a lot of these, these sort of like poets of middle-aged alcoholism. The Lays, yeah. That's really cool. Any ideas of like who could play the main character? Who's the guy from Christopher Briney? You want to cast him again? Should we put him in all of these? You know what? My next one was The Magus by Jon Fowles. And it wouldn't be bad if he had an English accent as a grad student teaching English in Greece who comes under the spell of an eccentric rich man and plays a series of games with him where it makes him question reality. And there's a lot of stuff about World War II in there. I need a, I need a Lynchian showrunner. I need not Lynchian and that he runs the show like David Lynch. But someone capable of atmosphere and dream worlds. I have a piggyback for that. So, who I think would be the right showrunners for this. Okay. So, I picked Day of the Locust, Nathaniel West's book about being down and out in Los Angeles. And turns out, turns out there's a magnet that attracts all the evil people here as Sam Levinson put it so poetically. Wait a second, let me back up for a second. Appointment in Samaria, are you updating that? Are you like, is it contemporary times? Contemporary, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so for The Magus, you could get into a lot of things about how the digital world makes you feel. It makes us not really understand what's real and what's not. So, for your Nathaniel West adaptation, would that be current? Yeah, I think, I'm not interested in period pieces, brother. Like, I'm a buyer right now, you know what I mean? Like, I'm trying to program for 2028, 2029. Can I get Budapest to look like Gibbsville? Can I afford to gas up the Quixote trucks to get them anywhere in 2029? Probably not. So, yeah, Hollywood, Hollywood is hard. Hollywood is difficult. Hollywood is a nightmare place, et cetera, et cetera. A tale told many times uh often well but the main thing so my first thought was like seth rogan and evan goldberg are kind of doing this with the studio um and i'm curious if they have a desire to play with a different gear and i kind of don't think they do because they have been slightly like preacher and the boys other things they produced have flirted with topicality but they do like heads exploding um this the the single most david lynch creator working today is my guy tim robinson wow i think you should leave the chair company tim robinson and zach kanan should do day of the locust i think they should do the magus i think they should just expand their business their footprint in this town i had amy simons okay um who obviously uh had a negative experience working on the idol where she was replaced midstream by sam levinson lucky i had a negative experience working on the idol too and i had to do the whole thing you know it's currently on the testaments but it hasn't hasn't been on the testaments but it hasn't been on the testaments you know it's currently on the testaments but it hasn't hasn't been on the testaments directed tv if i'm well she doesn't she does lots of tv directing i mean she did episodes of atlanta and stuff like that but i would love to put her in charge of something like this and i think that uh it would the material would suit her in a lot of ways that's good um i have one more for you hit me this is pretty a pretty good layup it's the secret agent by joseph conrad that too uh so this is a story about a relatively successful london businessman genuinely tell the story this is the most ripe for adaptation and for reinvention and for updating yeah and um it's about a guy who's a business owner in london who is in fact a spy on behalf of what is supposed to be russia essentially but it's unnamed yeah and it jumps around a lot chronologically in the novel around a bombing and you could do it now uh you could do it then if you wanted to but one of the great unrealized episodes is the perspective third season of the nick well look what you're doing remember when he was like it's just going to be the hospital but it's jumping ahead like 50 years and wasn't barry jenkins or somebody going to direct yeah the idea was that the the real star of the nick kind of like with er after many years the real star of the nick was the hospital yes and that while steven soderbergh who directed every episode and clive owen who was the star may recede from view someone else could pick up the mantle and tell the story of the nick and he was like oh the story of the same hospital in a different era of new york yeah there was there were versions of it where um uh oh my god why am i blanking on my beloved actor's name andre holland andre holland was going to continue playing the part that he played so brilliantly and there was talk that barry jenkins was going to get involved we were going to jump forward 20 years well i have the idea of of reuniting soderbergh and clive owen on this nice but i wonder whether or not you do one half of it is the you know basically turn of the century tale and the other is like modern times this is good but it's like maybe two different directors shooting the same actors or it's like yeah soderbergh shooting both but you're dressing because you know you could shoot london there's parts of london that do look exactly like it did in the beginning of the 20th century and there are at least two people in this room who'd be willing to scout it yes no need to name names honestly there's probably five people in this room that would scout it's quite possible so you get soderbergh and owen in the past and you get soderbergh and owen in the present you get soderbergh and owen in the present and you get soderbergh and owen in the present and you get soderbergh and owen in the present and you get soderbergh and owen in the present and you get soderbergh and owen in the present and you get soderbergh and owen in the like in in the present day we are not Chris Briney's age no I think didn't Zach Kreger more of our contemporary yes but still younger than us I mean so is everyone but I just mean like he's um a couple other ideas that i had like naked and the dead the norman mailer mailer world war ii novel uh i just let's make world war ii stuff and equally a bummer with appointment in samara would be an american tragedy uh the theodorizer 1925 novel but yeah like it would be pretty bleak to do american tragedy it's kind of in the name yeah what if it was ryan murphy's american tragedy oh my god sells itself dude all right i'm just gonna assign a few more works to showrunners where you don't have to talk about okay um secret agent i had also want to give it to my friend joe barton black doves your personal friend yeah okay i mean i'm giving it to him because he makes good television but he's also a lovely guy and look spurs are struggling this present and you get soderbergh and owen in the present and you get soderbergh and owen in the present and you get soderbergh and owen in the present and you get soderbergh and owen in the present and you get soderbergh and owen in the present and you get soderbergh and owen in the uh everything's being made in london anyway and then finally sol bello's adventures of augie march i think we just hand it to speaking of this is all it's all about who you know so i think we give that to our friend and listener tracy letts and the steppenwolf players and be like go make your chicago show contemporary augie march okay everything contemporary do you understand i do not have the budget or the discretion to bring like something period cars period piece every car in it by the way is going to be one of those like vin fast one of those like it's an electric car company owned by saudi arabia maybe that you see on the road now they're sponsoring it i can't wait till you get your byd your the chinese electric cars oh yeah yeah everybody's like when are we gonna get those they're like 20 listen i hear gas prices are problematic right now couldn't be me now at kroger your points add up to more ways to save every trip use them your way to take dollars off groceries at checkout or save at the pump you can even save up to 35 on your next fill up same choices and with low prices on fresh quality food plus digital and personalized offers tailored to how you shop your dollar goes further redeem your points online or in the app kroger fresh for everyone restrictions apply c-site or store for details let's talk about euphoria kitty likes to dance is the episode it's episode four of this third season we've seen stuff online now about this not being the last season of euphoria i would imagine if in any shape or form this show goes on it's not going to be with the same actors or at least not all of them i think this is going to be the end of of this group of characters together this high school class has moved on um i say that without having watched ahead i just don't know where you would take them in their 30s or whatever uh how did you how did you feel about this this midpoint episode i thought this was the best episode of the season i thought it was the most engaging and i thought it was also i feel like because again i can't speak to the arc of the series as a whole but this felt the most cohesive as a episode of episodic television that was attempting to move multiple balls forward at the same time yes there were the cross-cutting was noted the cross-cutting was notable and also tonally the stories fit better together and there were moments like when rue visits the melrose place esque apartment building where all the characters are now living but i was like oh this is what characters do on ensemble television shows right their storylines intersect with each other live together and they share the screen sometimes or one person's problems in this case is rue's desire to find another uh person to sell her hard drugs would maybe bring her in contact with characters who are in the midst of their own storylines like maddie photographing cassie with a uh leaf blower yeah so um i have i do have positive things to say about this episode i also want to say and i i'm curious if kaya wants to weigh in on this as well um this morning when i was driving the girls to school i mentioned that that i you know be talking about the show today and my older daughter said oh i know everything that's going on on that show and i said really i don't think that's a good idea and she said bro this is what they say um there are so many fan edits right now yeah um and she said and then i was like really you know what's going on this season and she said some marriages weren't meant to last that's one way of looking at it less than 12 hours after this episode ends um she also said that he meaning nate nate treated maddie unkindly it's true and i was like you now know more about the canonical arc of this show than i do she's watching tiktok fan edits of euphoria does it have like anything from the silver slipper in it like are they here's how i know the answer is no because i was saying something about like rated pg before no she's like i heard last night was about dancing you know people like doing it and i was like that's what it's about no i i say i was saying something about how and i'll say it again on this podcast how amazing zendaya is in this show and i was something that i was talking about i don't maybe i said something about there's a scene where she's driving or something she's really she's just so alive in every moment even when she's driving or something and my daughter said i don't know if she's driving or something i don't she shouldn't be driving she's a drug addict and i said no she's not she is currently a dea informant trying to snitch on two competing drug gangs who are heading for a massive violent war and she said oh i didn't see any of that so thank you google's age settings i guess like what's the dea great hold on i gotta make a quick phone call so so that's where we are with the culture let's talk about the rue part first because uh you know you can you can sort of split this show into different buckets because uh they aren't always coming all together right like there is like a brief moment where cassie lexi maddie and rue show the screen there isn't a ton of interaction between zendaya and the other actors like there it is similar to like industry season four episode two where you might watch that episode and be like that one guy's not talking to any other characters we won't spoil it too much um she's just extraordinary man like i i'm trying to think of a every week coming up with a different description of her and it's really been i guess at the forefront of my mind just because she's so incredible in the drama so she's really i've been watching her on screen pretty much all year now and the the scene with the two dea agents in the interrogation room is they kind of play her with being like all we found was like a joint in the car so good her resignation um both when the dog the drug sniffing dog starts barking and then when they're like you're fucking going to prison for the rest of your life unless you help us uh is so i don't know it's just so approachable like for somebody who's so you know famous and so kind of larger than life she is playing this part and it it feels like someone i i know like it feels like someone i see at coffee shops it feels like somebody i've been at bars with and it it's it's a really remarkable availability and like being being open and being yeah it's vulnerable yeah but it's not like performatively like i i'm dirty you know or anything like that it's like really present and she's like she's like she's like she's like she's like she does movie star shit all every episode she does like her fucking blood splattered face and her eyes moving from the safe to the guys holding the gun on big eddie it's just like that's how she's her one of the best definitions of of good acting is being present and alive in any situation moment to moment yeah and it is a master class in screen acting like i maybe she's great on stage too i wouldn't doubt that she can do anything but the way that she can be so outrageously exquisitely intricately alive every second that the camera is on her where she's showing us something she's showing us thought process she's showing emotion she's showing history that as i keep saying i'm not privileged i don't know her history but i can read enough of it emotionally on her face to be engaged by it it's astonishing and that that scene i mean the first 10 minutes of the episode absolutely ripped because that's what it's about and she elevates everything yes but i'm not withholding flowers because that scene the way in the uh interrogation room the way it's lit the way it's shot the way those two dudes are those specific two dudes one who is also meeting her with his presence and the other one is basically dead faced which is a choice you know because there's other kinds of good screen acting like i was thinking about why i like marty supreme so much and one of the things that josh safty so good at is non-professional actors who are not necessarily vibrant and alive and process no they just look like real people and they behave like real people yeah uh minute to minutes you're like i'm seeing someone so it's like it's like we're praising people who i see that they are acting or i see that they are not acting yeah and when you get the right recipe of those two things together it's something else yeah that whole exchange in the interrogation room where you know it was funny it was well written yeah like have you been to mexico is it nice and he's like some parts nice yeah um and all that stuff of like if i've been to the moon if you ask me if i've been to the moon and i was like hell no and they were like i have a picture of me and i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm a picture of you on the moon it's like no you don't because i've never been and that's not how you're answering the mexico question i love i love that sequence her i think after she gets out of that interrogation room one thing i noticed that levinson does a little bit is he's starting to de-michael baiify ruse pov of her own life yeah that's right because for a couple of weeks there you know it's basically been like hype williams videos inside of like the and i mean that is a slipper and it's starting to get a little bit more daylight and a little bit more overhead fluorescent lighting a little bit more like this person's waking up not necessarily like she wasn't aware of what she was doing but sexual violence on a cc black and white cctv but it's the it's the series of events that leads up to that it's like she's she knows that she's now got a snitch jacket she's in this card game and she knows alamo is looking at her in a different kind of way and she either has to like protect herself or she's like she's like she's like she's like she's like pretend to be falling off the wagon or try to obscure the fact that she's like running a game on him and obviously um obviously uh bishop is starting to notice that gibson is phenomenal in this episode he's been great the whole season he's fantastic but his non-verbal performance in that scene and across this episode he's building something you know that could be in lesser hands could just be a cliched or recognizable architect yeah you would have like oh i've got i've seen this guy like sort of idiosyncratic hitman is somebody who's been in movies and tv shows for 30 years now since pulp fiction um and then you get to that cctv footage of kitty um of kitty with basically being assaulted and kitty is played by an actress who's the sister of the lead of your show tell me lies it's not my show but yes i i've watched it it's grace van patten's sister yeah yeah uh it's not your show i like it okay it was just we're we're really saying like it's like i don't take possession of it you know what i mean it's it's a show for everybody leah again i welcome how was the flight from paris what is my vision for the ambassadors i'd like you to watch the show of mine tell me lies um and then yes by the end you know covered in blood sitting next to rosalia as one is yeah rosalia like this is a much bigger part than i thought it was gonna be it's also like fantastic she plays magic the girl with the neck brace but also it's like um i don't know i mean i again i don't frequent many silver slippers silvers slipper strip clubs i don't know how many catalan exotic dancers there are in the southland maybe it's a thing maybe it's like you know it's like it's like a pipeline yeah um the way like beef taught me that you should look for the filipino nurses like maybe you should look for you know spanish separatist strip strippers um i am fascinated if one day the story is written about like yeah we got rosalia on the show because we were filming the entire silver slipper sequence in seven days you know what i mean because i don't think she was there for like a 10 month block shoot if you just do magic stuff i wonder if it's just a couple of days but you're right i mean now she's sort of getting a bigger part because she's a little bit more partnered with rue and against against all odds i'm also so broken-brained about the show that i did start noticing things like like rosalia is in a scene at the silver slipper when all she's required to do is have rue walk past her on the way to the office and i was like well okay that's not a good wife situation no she was there that day yeah to film that one walk by and she didn't need to be um and then the episode ends the rue part of the episode ends with the reveal that the getaway driver there's a robbery at the silver slipper it's pretty obviously lori's guys to viewers but for the for the characters they're not so sure until they see phase um signature very plump lift lips yeah um you're right this was the most tv satisfying tv episode of the season and i thought it was the one where it was like okay now we're we've left the garage and now like a story is developing i think generally the reason why i've responded to the the rue storyline this season isn't just because it's anchored by zendaya's performance it's because in those scenes i can feel a filmmaker having fun with convention and with for tropes and cliches in a way that feels active and engaged like you you mentioned tarantino and some of it can feel like tarantino light but when it's edited so well like the card game was and everyone's giving it their best and there's these little just there's an edge to it yeah but even like the the shot of her as she's sort of watching behind the glass yeah as eddie starts to negotiate with the group of guys like that they're gonna have sex with yeah with kitty it's like it's starting to look more and more dark and nefarious this is the thing i i want to like i i think it takes me what generally i am i'm more drawn towards things that are you know interior or written in a different way than things that are told predominantly through the cinematography and the camera work and the direction for lack of a better word and so some of the episode and some of the storylines have left me cold because the real passion is in the camera movement and there was a lot of camera movement in the camera movement and there was a lot of camera movement in the camera movement in this episode and some of it was quite striking and i appreciate the technical difficulty of that and i also appreciate the fact that there's a filmmaker telling us what he wants to tell us emotionally on screen through what the camera is doing but then there is the rue storyline in which not only is it giving space to have her performance to be able to elevate it to give space to the writing to be a little bit crackly and fun and surprising but then to your point that's when the direction comes over the top as the third heat yeah to also surprise us with how we feel about what we are seeing you're it's such a smart observation about a show that i'm often too quick to discredit that her experience of the strip club is an aesthetic choice that is now changing. Yes, and I think that in the hands of another filmmaker, they might just be like, we've settled on a look for this strip club. Yeah, and it's cool. We've lit it this way. And now it's like, no, this is a place they'll give you migraines. Everybody here is on ketamine. Sexual assault is pretty common. People are probably being human trafficked. Like, this is hell, you know? And this guy, Alamo, is not a cool pimp reading history books. Like, he's a menacing, malevolent force. And I think we're starting to, like, that stuff is all starting to merge. I actually also thought, call me crazy, that the Cassie Maddy stuff was equally compelling on, like, a heist level where they're going into an influencer's home to essentially stage a moment that's going to break Cassie wide in the world of influencers and OnlyFans. Yeah. And the orchestration, the orchestration of that, and Maddy being like, you have to, like, get noticed, get into bed with him, or get him at the precipice of getting into bed, but do not fuck him. Yeah. And the sort of, like, comic psych gag of, like, no do coke out of my belly button, no do coke out of my belly button, was, like, pretty funny. Could you imagine that same setup in The Ambassadors? If we could get there with Henry James. I mean, Europe is a playground, man. You know? And that was the girl, the girl that she, that she goes upstairs with is the girl that Maddy was originally managing in the beginning of the season. So it's all coming together. Again, that worked less for me because I am less compelled by coming in cold, Maddy and Cassie generally. And I was confused by Maddy's shifting status in that it seems like she's kind of a hanger-on who's struggling, and yet she plays this entire party like it's Stradivarius. And her personality, her presence in it is understood, is respected. She's able to maneuver people. Maybe she's a master manipulator. She knows everybody who she needs to know. And now that's convenient for the story, but that seemed confusing for the version of the person that had been introduced to me two weeks ago. That said, like, this sounds crazy, but, like, what you just sketched out, that the way to do a heist on status and attention would revolve around. Yeah, the payoff is the notifications. Camera phones, notifications, social media, hard drugs, Hollywood Hills parties. Like, that is a war Euphoria was designed to win. Like, this is the new class battleship that we want unblocking this particular straight. Am I losing the metaphor? No, it's. I just mean that, like, even from a distance, my perception of what the show was doing, separate and apart from, like, the quality of it that it was effective at, was engaging with. Contemporary culture. Yeah. And contemporary fame economy or young life. Like, this is. These are the ones we want on this. And, you know, for as much as people have questioned how he is depicting Sidney Sweeney and to what extent she's in on the joke. Yeah. And what the joke is, necessarily. And what is a joke? I thought it was pretty funny to have Sidney Sweeney show up at a party and everybody be like, she's the new kid in town. Yeah. At this, like, influencer party. Right. Basically. And there are, like, people eyeballing her, but she's got to, like, do the footloose dance to get everybody's attention. Yeah. Up on stage. I like the way that they are playing with her public persona. So, I suppose the less successful elements of this episode, for me personally, were the Jules and Nate stuff. Nate, just because I can't help but watch this show somewhat from your POV at this point and wonder whether or not. If you understand, like, Nate saying at this zoning meeting, you know, like. You know I was interested at that point. But if Nate not being able to build leads him back to dark Nate, it's going to be really funny and it's quite an interesting commentary on the state of Los Angeles. And why we can't build things anymore. Yeah. When he's begging the guy and saying, like, I'm trying to be good. I'm trying to be good. I'm trying to do a good thing. That is because he has done so many bad things. So, I didn't know that, but my daughter did tell me about that this morning. Did she tell you any. Of the details of his nefarious deeds? No, apparently he was a bad guy, she said, and maybe an abusive guy. For sure. But that's the extent of it. Yeah. Now, maybe I need to have, like, a more serious talk with her to unpack some of this, but also, like, so she can help me out with my coverage of the show. Sure. But yeah, I don't. That is the storyline that is clearly the most beholden to past baggage and not just a beautiful Barbie Dreamhouse luggage set that Cassie threw from. one floor of the house to the other in her grand escape. Yeah. So, yeah, I agree. I continue to think that, like, some of the best filmmaking is in the Nate and no longer Cassie stuff, just the colors and the framing and the lighting, but I am uninterested. He is in a similar situation to Rue where he's being put into an impossible position. And it'll be interesting to see how he reacts. I think that Rue. is starting to, like. Every time she looks at that, I'm like, she's looking at that safe. She's been looking at it. Yeah, and the same thing goes for Laurie's basement of illegal pleasures full of drugs and guns and money. But I feel like those two characters are having the most pressure put on them in a lot of ways, and how they react will kind of define the rest of the season. The Jules part, I don't really know what to say because it doesn't really seem like it's in the same show as everybody else. I thought we were going to get. a little bit more coherence out of. or cohesiveness out of the plot lines once they reintroduce Jules and introduce this idea of her being a sugar baby and introduce this plastic surgeon and introduce all this stuff. And now it's like Jules is kind of hanging out at Lexi's workplace and putting a bunch of dicks on a George Seurat painting and it's not successful. That is a radical reinterpretation of Sunday in the Park with George. Yes. Now, they contrast that with. Cassie at the party, right? Like, isn't that. Yeah. During that sequence, it's like Jules painting is Cassie. Painting over it. Yeah, I mean, I think if you squint, there may be some loose commentary there about the old ways to become famous and the new ways to become famous. That's true. And how hidebound the old ways are. And I do think that those scenes, the Sharon Stone scenes with the necessary Din Tai Fung takeout containers in her office are meant to be satire. Yes. They fall flat for me, even though I'm enjoying Sharon Stone's performance quite a bit. Also quite funny, I wonder how the homies at HBO felt about a studio executive being like, do you know what your day of missed shooting cost you? Yeah, that's a little bit of like, we're all laughing here, right, guys? Right? I. But the naivete of everyone involved was discordant to me. Not just that, like, what a great opportunity to have my friend come do a painting for a television show that has 8 million people, watching it every week, which is like, okay, buddy, good luck. I wish. What is this, Mayor of Kingstown? I know. But beyond that, then like the reaction to it, and then the like, the idea that she somehow, her dreams have been crushed because this insane painting that she's hung on the set of a television show is somehow being rejected. Like, I am, I don't understand this character at all, or what her point of view is, or what we're doing with her. I couldn't tell, honestly. I think the thing that you have to ask yourself is, do you, do you think that what Jules does to the painting is like an artistic breakthrough for her? Because it happens wordlessly in comparison to Cassie painting her masterpiece, you know? And so I'm wondering whether or not, like, through this rejection of her expression of sexuality, did Rue find a more abstract but more powerful way of expressing herself? Sorry, Jules, find a more abstract and powerful way of expressing herself, or was she just like, I'm going to ruin this painting with red paint? And then walk away and we'll pick my story up next week. I think what's frustrating, and I want to be careful when I say this, because I actually, big picture thought, I do not have a prescription for this show. There is not a version of season three. The show's not sick. It doesn't need one. Fair enough. But I'm not, I'm not sitting down here being like, if only, here's how you'd fix it. Like, this is such a unique convergence of events and celebrity and vibes and aesthetics and all of it, that it is, it just is what it is. So here we are. Yeah. Covering it up. Every week. That said, a minor frustration of Wooda Cuda is that genuinely an idea of how limiting and how unpleasant and how surprising and occasionally depraved the opportunities are for people five years out of high school in quote unquote this town, or maybe America. Like that's, that's a fairly fertile landscape to explore. And again, if you squint that the former addict is like, is now giving drugs to people and trying to go legit, but also is now completely enmeshed in an impossible never-ending drug war with pigs and dead birds surrounding her. But specifically that idea of people who were special in high school, one way or another, and then wanting to make it. And then what are the options of doing that? Can you marry a conservative businessman? Well, no, because everyone's leveraged and no one can do anything. And everybody's in debt to somebody else. Like, can you become a, can you, can you get a job in Hollywood? Well, you can unwrap someone else's dumplings to work on something that is already failing pounding away on final draft something's coming well xoxo she she had quite a dramatic uh debut last last year last season when with her play i'll ask my daughter about it yeah but um yeah i mean there's there and maybe this is what you find an element of what keeps you coming back isn't just that it's not boring but like you see these things these potentially amazing things just sort of tossed out and then we move in a different direction there's a lot there's no shortage of stuff sure some of it is working and some of it isn't but it was i thought broadly speaking a entertaining and surprisingly cohesive episode of tv and suggests an end game of sorts that we're moving to potentially not a series end game but a season end game that will be compelling in a different way in an old-fashioned way in a oh i'm engaged and curious what's going to happen yeah i'm i'm i think the thing i'm most fascinated by is i mean i remain entertained by it on episode episode level is to what extent will the main characters influence the outcome of the other main characters or are they all going to have like personal epiphanies catharsis endpoints at the end of the season that don't have a ton to do what what is the history i will ask you this like what is the history of the show in terms of its finales like have the storylines overlapped yes i mean they were all in high school together okay yeah so that was that was the thing is that like now los angeles is their high school so it's to what extent is rue gonna get a drug connect through maddie is um you know is she gonna start selling to like the guy that cassie was just seen with this week i mean like they'll have to pull things together and to what extent does nate put down his uh his shovel and his ideas of building homes for the elderly and get back involved in some dark shit it's also interesting to watch it with a old-fashioned tv brain an example of that would be when the superstar influencer asks if the the coke is has been tested yeah and she's like no i i get it from my usual plug it's fine he's like okay and then what does cassie say i love coke she got me on that one um that in a more conventional television show would be laying a trail towards fentanyl laced cocaine entering this milieu too and the world's colliding it's possible that it might i mean there's but but it's also euphoria that may never come up again it's just that we're watching an influencer and that is a accurate reflection of how hard partying people on camera all the time have to treat drugs i thought it was also an interesting commentary on like you know we've moved on from like the safe sex era and into the safe drug era we america well again when leah sadu arrives at lax you're gonna have to explain all of this to her you may feel a magnet below the city trust me it's a metaphor do you want to talk about the sixers before we go at all you're gonna swap the lights what do you want to say let's get a little sure tender here that's a legitimately beautiful sports moment and i'm really really really really happy for those guys they don't need me to be happy for them but i just want to say like watching joel and bead get his entire body stretched out and just watching him and being like do you have to stretch snap and decademy surgery like i don't really know what what's happening here like did you rip her stitches like what happened and watching him on the ground and like everything that he's put his body through yeah it's just the first round it's it but it is game seven in boston and it just it meant something that was fucking incredible i want to be careful here because i'm worried this is a little bit like when like pete buta judge goes on like fox news and they let him cook for like 10 minutes and then the then the feed gets pulled like how much can we talk about this series we're free to we're free to you're sure yeah you've been given the green light yes yeah we can't just be like mostly my my first reaction about the sixers winning game seven over the celtics was i felt bad for derrick white he didn't have the series that he wanted you know and so put the camera on him he's laughing it's just that was what bill saw in game five that's right uh genuinely i this has been a roller coaster for me because i have not been you didn't make yourself available emotionally to this no but what was terrifying although not probably surprising to you was like i felt like the crater opened inside of me as i was sitting down to watch game seven of how badly i wanted this yeah and how wonderful it was to finally actually win one of these like it i know we've had a lot of city-wide success over the last few years but specifically this team and specifically against that yeah you just need to get those guys like i honestly i i hope i obviously hope we beat the knicks yeah um a lot of nice knicks fans of my life happy for them don't have my hopes up very high for it i'm i'm anything is possible i'm pulling for us but like i just we i beat the Boston was in and of itself like worth it and i also want to say i understand how funny it is when there are people like their their fan bases and things are like want to put up in the rafters that they like came in second in the play-in tournament or whatever it's like i would legitimately hang hang hang a banner that we advanced out of the first round in a game seven that's fine i will always remember where we were can i ask you a sports thing about this game that just your general take on this one thing after this game which was thrilling and we won and that was awesome was as soon as it's over this is not unique to the series but everybody is so buddy buddy like everyone every immediately joelle goes over to jaylen brown and they have some hugs and everybody's dapping up everybody don't you love that don't you love everybody being friends i like everybody on the same team being friends so i can fall asleep at night typically at the end of series people really dab each other up i think there's a version of it that is like respect yeah but i feel like it was a little too jay mcdaniel's essentially was like every nuggets is a marshmallow and like every nugget is like not worthy of being on the floor with me and then after the end of this at that end of that season he like sees her seriously hug so it's a switch you can flip yeah okay yeah that's like you and me it's all love in here and then once and then we get out there i'm like you fucking marshmallow but i'm like i am a marshmallow um that was cool i can't believe we have to play again i'm uh tonight um yeah but you can't you can't i did google it you can't have a second appendectomy that's like what's cool about it is that like every time someone rolls into his knee i'm like same fucking knee man that's crazy you can't just take it off it's not like the game of operation where it's gone i did double check this you cannot regrow the appendix and it cannot burst again okay good so that's in our favor i didn't think that that was gonna happen i i am worried about his hip contusion and his knees and everything else and maxi's hand and everything else and i'm like i'm not gonna do that i'm not gonna do that and and the knicks fans and all that stuff like in the intensity of the garden but if we punt game one it's okay it's a long series it's a long series yeah anything can happen all right thanks to kai kaya and sarah we will be back on thursday to talk about widow's bay and top chef and some other stuff we'll put the modern library list of 100 books in the show notes oh yeah i'll send that to kaya and this is a safe space to do those things well i don't know if i necessarily landed the plane but you know we'll see i think the air friend transplant is on its way when you shop kroger delivery you can expect the savings you love and fresh groceries delivered 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