Ethics with Ann Beirne: More Than Just Not Sleeping with Your Client

Today's episode is sponsored by Potentially You. See this sexy placement in the show? One hour over 100K. Yes, I said over 100K listeners to hear all about you. Are you hiring for a company? Got a badass product. This is your spot right here. Reach out to us at the behavior ladies at gmail.com and we will hook you up. It's behavior bitches. Hey guys, it's Leot and Casey. And guess what guys? It is episode 2323 Don't spill the tea. All right, that is your rhyme of the day. Thanks to our producer and it's getting shittier as the episodes go on. So if you got some good rhyming words with any numbers one through nine and zero, I guess. Also send those rhyming words over to us. We will be happy to share that right in the show. So let's get started with a five star review because we know we like some pairing with our audience before we dive into anything too deep. So let's get ourselves some compliments Casey. Right, so I pulled this one from Apple podcast review. It's by Alexandra Aker. She says the best. The best I listen to these podcasts on the way to work while preparing for the exam. Thanks for making the content relatable, hilarious and study worthy. Thank you, Alexandra. You must be studying hard. This exam is hard. And if we can provide you just a little bit of fun with some just relatable examples thrown in to the mix, that's our goal. So thank you. We love you and we mean it. Absolutely. So today we are so grateful to have a special guest on who is someone I really respect in the field. So it's going to be a more like cool too. She's really cool too. That's important also. So we're going to kind of focus back into the ABA world a little bit, but also just really talking about being ethical in general. So it can really be applied to any person, professional with an ethical code that they're following. So should you introduce our amazing guests today? I would love to. Okay, so our guest today, and by the way, because of his podcast, we just get introduced to the coolest people after cool people. Like, and it's one cool BCBA. We have on it's like, hey, you got to have this person on there. Really cool. I met them here. And this is exactly how this connecting happened. So I'm so thankful it did. We have Ann Burn. She is a BCBA with over two decades of experience working with individuals with autism spectrum disorders. Over two decades in this field is a BFD. Like, you do not hear of that very often. And yes, she is on our show. And that is so cool because we are just freshly minted BCBAs two years out there. And when people like Ann want to speak to us, we are oh, so freaking happy. Ann is a passionate about the importance of professional development for students of behavior analysis as well as emerging and seasoned behavior analyst. She has professional on five continents in consults with centers serving individuals with autism all over the world. Yes, we said world as the director of professional development at the global autism project. Yes, that is that bad ass nonprofit organization that we spoke about that does these trips all over the world helping individuals with autism. And she's been working with the global autism project for over a decade. Ann is the co-author of the textbook Understanding Ethics and Behavior Analysis. Practical applications available now to you at your local Amazon store located on your computer or smartphone. No, this is and one last thing. This is really big news for those of you guys who only know ethics as being birch and Bailey. Right. That is a great book, but this goes much deeper and beyond and hits on a lot of examples that as in the modern world that we're running into every day. And I highly recommend you get this book and it will be available in the show notes. That was beautiful. Thank you. So Ann's areas of interest include ethics, which is going to be a big topic today. Staff and parent training, telehealth, which I'm actually super interested in, and dissemination of behavior analysis methodologies. So Ann obtained her BA from Binghamton University. Me too. And by the way, I didn't. Hey, go bear cats. I only made it through one year there and I was like really depressed, but we could talk about that after it's been from there. It's the weather. The weather is like super depressing. Yeah. So she also got her masters from Columbia University, teachers, college, specializing in early childhood special education. She was a premier recipient of the Elijah Foundation scholarship. She is currently in the special education doctoral program at the Fishlor College of Education at Nova, Southeastern University. Wow. She also has a background in musical theater in opera. What? And was lead singer of song at St. Augustine's RC Church in Park Slope, Brooklyn. She lives in New York City with her husband and three children. Welcome to the show Ann. Hi. Hello. Now I'm remembering my husband made me put in my musical background on my LinkedIn profile. I love it. It would be one thing or not at all. Okay. Cool. Just wanted to throw it out there. This could be your chance at thank you. In case you want to go another direction. You seem pretty vested in ABA, considering you just wrote this huge textbook. Yeah, and I'm really rusty at the opera thing. So yeah, it would be fun to see sometime. On fact, so we just kind of said it, but my husband's from Binghamton. And he, I met him. I drove to Binghamton, and which is six hours from where we live currently, where I'm from New Hampshire. And I met him there. And we fell in love pretty quickly. And my first thing was we are never living here ever. I don't care what you have to do. It took us about a year for him to actually move here to find a job. But I was not going there. And I, we still go visit. I don't know what time of year did you go there? It's all beautiful. Fall is absolutely beautiful there. I'll get like that nature trail behind the school. And I remember like running around the brain on campus. But I don't know. I mean, like, are you overfall living in New Hampshire? Are you kind of like, oh, whole fall thing like that love fall. Yeah, it's, I bet you can't sure fall compared to Binghamton fall. Yeah, Binghamton just has this kind of gray over it that I felt. We were there. Granted, it was in the winter. And there are some pretty spots around there, but it's just funny. Like the local Walmart, that was like our only activity we had to do when I went to school there for the year. It was just, you know what it was? A lot of New Yorkers and I love New Yorkers. And a lot of people think I'm from New York because I'm like very fast paced. And I get along with New Yorkers really well. And feel from Long Island and Jersey. But it like made no sense me being this girl from Dallas going to Binghamton. It was just like a pain in the ass to get there. A lot of response effort. Like one flight a year out. And so I lasted for a year and I actually was in their ABA program. But only because I went there and I thought I was going to be doing a special ed program. And then once I'd already enrolled and moved into my dorm, they're like, we don't have a special ed program. The next best thing is ABA. So I did that for a year. And is that where you did ABA at Binghamton? I didn't start there in ABA. When I was there, the psychology department was much more kind of experimental. And so I had majored in psychology for a while and I ended up majoring in music. So yeah, I did do internships at the programs that they have for kids who got to them. Which in upstate New York, there is one that was sort of my first foray into, wow, we really need to do better at providing services. Because there were kids from all over going to the school who couldn't go to their local schools. And the program was great. But it, the talk about response efforts, like every single day to put your kid on a bus and send them off to a school that might be like an hour away. I really felt like this was a big, big issue. And I have to, that's still probably, I think if you ask everybody every behavior analyst, what is the most important ethical issue today? You're going to get a different answer every time. But one of the things that I'm really concerned about in terms of ethics is service access. So, and that's how I got interested in telehealth and working with the Global Autism Project. Because we're really kids who need, or families rather, I should say, families who need and want services can't always get them because of where they live. Or because of lack of availability of qualified professionals. And this is a huge problem. That's a huge problem in the US. It's a way even here to problem internationally. And the other problem that we have is is that people who need services don't necessarily want them because they hear about ABA being abusive or they meet a behavior analyst and they don't get along or something like that. So these are the two things I think that really affect our ability to allow people to access the right to effective treatment. It's not the right to effective treatment as long as you live in a metropolitan area in the US. It's not the right to effective treatment as long as I like you. It's the right to effective treatment, like period. That's it. - Yeah, to everyone regardless of culture or of financial stability or financial means, you know. - Absolutely. - And it sucks. Like what I've seen, let's say you do live in Binghamton, New York, which I mean they know they have that place. But okay, another random place. I don't know, random place, Tennessee. And let's say there's one place that does services and they know, hey, we're the only ones here. We could give half ass services. So I've seen this happen in places and it really pisses me off because and these families, first of all, they don't know anything any differently, right? They're like, oh well, I assume what they're doing is right until someone who actually knows what they're doing comes in and you're like, what the hell are you doing? Like you are just having this kid show up every day and sit there and do absolutely nothing that's valuable for them. - Right. So what they say, well, this is what ABA is. This is my only example. So this must be what ABA is and this sucks, then ABA sucks too. I mean, that's the other thing that we need to be concerned about. And you know what? There is actually a study that I looked at from 2015 where they looked at families in Appalachia and they, because of a lack of availability of services, these, they trained parents by sending them video by mail and having them, I like his just made like a shock fan. (laughing) - I know, it was 2000. - It's been a millennial. - Like PCR or DVD or we talk are blue red. - I had had had DVD, but they sent them video by mail and had them and instruction sheets and had them fill out data and then send video of themselves back doing the procedures by mail. And then they would send them feedback also by mail. So it was like, hey, you've been doing this wrong for a month. - Right. - So it was just a stale. - Talk about delayed reinforcement or delayed feedback. - That's an issue. - That's an issue. - The immediate need of reinforcement, right? - This was 2015 and I was like, oh, we've got to do better than this in terms of getting services to people who need it. - Wait, 2015? - 2015. - I was around, FaceTime was around. - Yeah, but the internet access where these people lived wasn't as great. - Oh my gosh. - The part of it is an infrastructure issue as well. But yeah, it was wild. So I do not have that citation at my fingertips, but I'll send it to you for the show notes 'cause it was really-- - I'd love to read that, that's amazing. - It was a great article and it was really like a good attempt to solve a really complex problem. But-- - But old snail mail, I mean, don't fix it if it's not broken. - All right. But, or please fix it. - Yeah, all right. - Yeah, I'm sorry. - But it was a really great, you know, I, the researchers are amazing for trying to, you know, to solve a really serious problem. But this is a really serious problem. - It's a really serious problem. The lack of ability to reach certain people, and I think, not think, I pretty much know that the Global Autism Project, and if you could expand more on that a little bit, is that kind of what got you into really seeing these ethical concerns in other countries? And-- - Well, there are other concerns that I sort of didn't know about until I worked in other countries. Like that, so there's a tendency with a lot of international volunteerism, just sort of like go, and this is actually, I shouldn't say, international volunteerism, 'cause I think sometimes BCBAs tend to do this anyway. There's, even though our field is very big on data collection and, you know, addressing what's going on and like making sure that we're performing assessments, there is a tendency to kind of take things over and dominate the conversation. So, and-- - That's not guilty. - Oh, I'm working on it. Has tag working on it. - Everybody's got it. And I think that there's like kind of a personnel to trade with BCBAs, and like I know that, so in some fields they might be like, oh, this child will talk when they talk. And I'm like, no, I'm gonna make sure that they really, really want to talk, and that I'm gonna help them talk, and that they're gonna talk. And I think that's a certain amount of like, you know, there's a certain amount of like nervous energy that's somewhat beneficial for behavior analysts, a lot of the time. And I think that we, our personality tends to be like we're fixers. We like to, that's really reinforcing for us. So, it takes a lot of self-control to just say, like, let me see what's going on. It's actually going well. And so, my first trip with the Global Autism Project was with the service partner that we had in Ghana. And I just spent a few days observing, and there were kids in adolescence at the, the older I get, the looser my definition of kid becomes, but there were kids in adolescence at this time. Are we kids? I, no, I think you might be. I don't know. - I'm 32, if I'm a kid, that's a confusing kid. - You're a kid. - I'm a baby. So, so at the center, there wasn't any, there was very little communication. There were, there, there weren't any sort of augmentative communication systems, and very few of the students there were verbal. But every single one of them was showing some independence in writing. Now, if I were creating a program, I like out of whole cloth, I would never, writing would not be my top priority. So, but this was something that was really important to the staff, they were having some success with it. Every single kid had, even like as young as three, was had some level of independence and at something like copying lines or something. And so, I did what I would not ordinarily do, and I said, okay, we're gonna put, you know, we're gonna add some data collection systems, we're gonna add some, you know, effective instruction, but we're keeping the writing. 'Cause, 'cause that's working. And so it's more significant, right? Yeah, it was really, every single one of them had some level of independence with it, which was amazing to me. So, we added a lot of stuff, but we didn't take away anything that was working, and I think that, you know, really taking the time to say what is working here? And, you know, and then saying, what can we tweak? And learning how to communicate with people. There are a lot of cultures where, I mean, I'm from New York. So, we're not like this. You know, New Yorkers will be like, no, no, you're completely wrong, just, (laughs) like, thanks anyway. But working in cultures where people don't feel comfortable telling you I disagree with that is a little bit tricky 'cause you have to kind of figure out if they disagree with you, and then say, do you agree with that, and ask them directly, and then they're like, no. And you're like, okay, all right, well, now we can move on. Now I know. So, and that's, you know, a really important skill for behavioral analysis also, like making sure that you can take no for an answer sometimes. Absolutely. We have to work, I was just doing a webinar and one of the topics was consent, and I told a story, this isn't a professional story, this is like a 100% personal story. So, when my daughter was about three years old, she had this habit of chewing her hair. So, of course, with my decades of experience of behavioral analysis, I just told her not to do it over and over. 'Cause that was, of course, as well. So, and one day she said to me, I just need to chew something. So I was like, well, thank you for the FBI. That was very helpful. And, and for poor, it's the best right here for that. And I thought, okay, well, then you can have gum, and 'cause gum's designed for chewing, and your hair isn't. So, we went on like that for a few weeks. It was great, stop chewing your hair, and then one day the babysitter, who was not part of this conversation with my daughter, said, I don't think it's appropriate for kids to her age to chew gum. And I said, oh, all right, yeah, okay. All right, and, and the babysitter, I'm saying it's my ass, right? (laughing) Oh, not at all. I was like, okay, she won't chew gum anymore. And then the babysitter left in like an hour later, I was like, wait a minute. And I thought, you know, like just the suggestion from someone was enough to not only make me forget that I had a really good reason for my daughter and a chewing gum, but also that it really wasn't any of anybody else's business, whether or not my daughter chewed gum. And I thought, wow, that was really easy. Like it was so easy for me to just like, throw out a drink and get so influenced by that. And I really started thinking about trying to make sure that I wasn't doing the babysitter. And you know, the babysitter came back the next day, and I was like, oh, ha ha, just kidding, let her chew gum. And it was fine. But like, and it really made me wonder, like have I ever done that? Have I ever done that? like had such an easy influence over someone because here I was, I was the expert, I was going to help them and and then accidentally influence some more than I thought I did or or wanted to or should have. So important to. That's an interesting point. Yeah. So to kind of think about that when you go into family's homes or classrooms to sit back and just listen and see and observe and then instead of just completely putting in all of your own. This is what you should do blah blah blah like having that open conversation of what is working that you think is working and having those like card conversations because what not everything we say is going to be right. And then not everything we're going to say is going to be right to this individual family. And so behavior analysts have a really interesting definition of culture, which is from cigarette Glenn 1988 I cite it all the time. That's why I have that right. And it's going to be like, oh my gosh. So cigarette Glenn talked about cultural in terms of interlocking behavioral contingencies. So, you know, there are things that kind of like that sort of become our normal, right? Like we know that. Like just as an example, so I live in New York City, we're like, New York City people are literally on top of each other. What part of the city just out of interest? Oh, I'm excited. Queens, sunny side Queens. Queens, okay, cool. Yeah. So we have an apartment like that like everybody does. And so when I hear about people who have their babies sleeping in nursery is I'm like really. How do you do? I just I don't understand it because it's not part of my experience. There's nothing wrong with having your baby sleep in a nursery. It's that it's not my normal. It's someone else is normal, right? So and all the people with like larger homes are like, good, great. You had a baby in the room with you. Like you did it. But it's just things become like what you are comfortable with through exposure. So these interlocking behavioral contingencies means that things are reinforced by the community until we all kind of know them and they feel like right and normal. So you know, like nobody ever explicitly told me, hey, you really shouldn't like take your shoes and socks off in the middle of church. So not to do I've never done it, but like like that's not something I needed to be explicitly told it just sort of feels like right and norm. You know, following kind of other people's behaviors. So you're going to have Cegric line on the show and she's going to be like that and is idiot. But it's the idea is that culture is not something that's like innate to us. It's learned over a long period of time. And if you think about culture in that kind of broad way of like culture is a set of interlocking behavioral contingencies, then every family that you meet is a culture and like they have their own, you know, they have their own normal and they have their own what's right to do. And so I remember I was working with two families at the same time, I'm a very young children and in both cases, the kids slept in the bed with the parents. And so one family I said to the mom, I said, is that okay, like how do you feel about that? And her, she just like her face just like filled up with like so much joy. And she said, oh, you know, you're, you can't know how wonderful it is to sleep with your baby in neurons. It's just like because I didn't have kids at the time. She said, it's just such an amazing feeling. So that was really like precious to her. The other family I said to me, I feel like I'm being held hostage by a two year old. It's like that when he goes to that, it's like it. So, you know, I so to come in with like with a so called solution for both families be like, I think, you know, so much for your joy about having your baby in your arms, kick that kind of like as opposed to like, let me solve this problem for you that is affecting your sleep and is affecting your mood and is affecting your. You don't level of privacy in your marriage and whatever else like that's that those were two different needs and you can't address them with the same. You know, the same tool. No, everything's individualized for sure. I think it's interesting, because I think also as a BCVA, we often listen because you said we are fixers. So, you know, I think it's just like listening to respond, right? Like, okay, so this is your problem. Okay, so here's the solution. Like we're not listening to listen to hear the end part of like someone saying, well, it's actually the best part of my entire day when I get to sleep with my child. Right. So, I think it's really just like as a nice reminder, also as you're saying this for us to listen to actually listen as opposed to just listening to have our next response ready because I mean, I know me, I'm a, I, I, like we said, like, I'm not going to be able to listen to you. I, like we said, I've verbal diarrhea. I'm like, I'm like waiting for the next opportunity to speak. And Casey and I, even like what the podcasting, we've literally had to shape our behavior of, you know, we always just wanted to respond to everything because we're excited and we like what people are saying and we relate to it and we connect. But we've really had to work on like, hey, we're listening to someone else here, you know, we want to hear what they have to say and why it's important as opposed to just listening to get to the next question that we want to ask you. It's tricky. It is tricky. And there is that kind of like fixer part of you that's really uncomfortable with it, especially at first. And, but it's, I like to say that in applied behavior analysis, the applied part comes before the behavior and before the analysis. So everything first and foremost has to be socially significant. And, you know, for little kids, this family is their social community. And, you know, as you know, kids grow and get more complex and they develop other social communities at school, you know, at recreational programs, you know, and then eventually at work, then those social communities change and they have other needs. But, but that, you know, it's bad to be applied first before it's anything else. Amazing. Okay. So I have a question for you. You know, I teach or Casey and I both we teach study notes, ABA and we go through, which I'm so excited. I hope you're still coming to the ethics class we're going to have. So everyone. Which also happens to be like a huge, amazing feeling for me because it actually is. That's why when I spoke to you and like I heard what you said, like I was really excited because I have to be honest, like ethics is something I always dreaded. And it's my worst class to teach I'd say because I don't. I, it's. With studying notes, ABA, we're providing a lot of, you know, interesting ways to remember things and funny examples, relatable, whatever it is. And with ethics, I think there's a lot of relatable examples. I'm sure we could do as well. Also. But the only thing is it's not like one bit of information you need to memorize right there's not like one answer like, oh, these are the seven dimensions. Let me list them or, you know, here are the three main principles of ABA here. Let me list them. It's like, what is the best answer? What is the best answer? And. For me, I find it very hard sometimes knowing the best answer because there can be multiple things that are right and even like talking test prep wise, but and in life wise, like what's the best thing to do. And also where to access help for this, like where would you say people find this are like most people. And that's why I'm so excited you wrote this book because most of us only know birch and Bailey, like that's what you look to for ethics and. But when you're in a real situation, you're like, well, how does this like, first of all, what code is it that I should be looking under and. I don't know how it applies to the situation. Where would you tell BCBA's BC ABA's. RBT's anyone in the field who is trying to understand the ethics to look for guidance and obviously your book, which we will have in the show notes and everyone needs to get a copy. But aside from that, where can people find these ethical. So answered yeah. So I do what like about Bailey Bert obviously his book is amazing and I, but up until this point it's been kind of lonely like just there. So the only person on the market right there. So I wanted to write this book not, you know, not as a criticism or anything, but really like to keep a company. It's so cute. That's a cute way to put it. I think that there, you know, there needs to be like more written about ethics. And I think one thing that I find is helpful for people who are kind of in an ethical situation is I talking the book in the first chapter about sort of what we think of as goodness. And then there, there is like legality. There's the legal level of goodness, which is, you know, following the law. And then making sure we're fulfilling our legal obligations. And it's not that that's easy because it can get really complicated, you know, billing procedures are, you are really complicated. Being a mandated reporter is so necessary and so difficult sometimes. And then there's that area. And then there's ethics, which is are you following the perfect. ethical compliance code. And then I think the trickiest one is our own personal morality. So sometimes what you know when people think they have an ethical question, they really have either a professionalism question or a moral question. Like it might be something that doesn't even relate to the ethics code at all, it just kind of makes them uncomfortable. So looking at the nature of that discomfort and saying like is this really something that is addressed within the ethics code? Or is it something that just makes me personally uncomfortable for other reasons? Because you know my morality is formed by my culture like what my you know what my normal is and you know what and those all of those interlacking behavioral contingencies. So is you know when somebody um you know uh when somebody does something I'm uncomfortable with is you know is my discomfort, does that really have anything to do with the ethics code? Or is that just me personally? And if it's me personally then how do I respond to that? Because it's still real. It's just you know like how do I respond to that in a way that addresses that issue? That's a legal one which is a little bit easier to address. Exactly. I can't be calling the BACB about every little thing. I've heard about people who um you can't get in touch with them on the best of days. I mean yeah and also like this and it's also like I you know I respect the organization enough so that I don't you know I don't want to be calling them because like this person has a rabbit in their classroom go to school that like really that's like I want your I want your life for 24 hours if that's your biggest problem that you have to go to the BACB that rabbit is the biggest. Seriously I want your life. Do you ever and I've used this before for my own personal um I've reached out right to the ethics hotline on Bailey yeah and he's very responsive. I mean within 24 hours he answered me and he actually put me in contact with someone else who I could talk to and it was it felt like I was really supportive in that situation so. Right and it's like I contacted the BACB about things but their legal department does not answer hypotheticals which is one thing and um so I was asking them like well what would be the case here and I also reached out to other colleagues too so um sometimes I'll you know I'll ask colleagues that I trust like you know like help me you know help me figure this out help me peel this onion and and figure out um you know what's what's going on here and that and and sometimes that helps too like even if they say something that's not you know that isn't exactly relevant you're like okay that's another way to think about it you know ethics is you know unlike unlike you know memorize the seven dimensions what's tricky about ethics is that you know at this uh I think I told you this story Leot but I started my mentorship and and you know the my mentor was Bobby Newman said what do you want to get out of you know the mentorship this is what they called supervision way back in the day and um and I said I want to know the answers I don't want to be confused by cases anymore and he said well I can't give you that and but what the process gave me and what my experience gave me and what I hope I'll you know be able to give other people with a book is better questions so it's not about like I know the answer is it's about asking better questions so yeah yeah absolutely and just just so you know you've opened a can of worms KC and I will now be referring all ethical questions to you so just know you've been know you've been warned um we we actually had an ethical situation earlier this year because I mean I know we're ready putting ourselves a little bit on the line by calling ourselves the behavior bitches um but also we got offered to have you know we have to pay for the podcast so we got someone to sponsor an episode and they were like you know what um where this new CBD product like we're happy to sponsor your episodes like we think it's a great young audience like who you have all the right we're like so excited we got our first sponsor we're like hell yeah whatever and then I don't know some part of us was like this doesn't feel right like is this cool if we do it you know like I don't know like I mean but is it different if it's hemp or if it's made from marijuana or you know so yeah it falls a lot of you know there it's because there are some things about it that could be considered ethical and then there are other things that could be considered like just making me like super uncomfortable um so I think CBD like you know is kind of uniquely like a lot of those categories so what did you decide to do I emailed the hotline I talked right with John Bailey that's the I really was like you know it's not you know it's legal it is a legal product we're not recommending it for people with autism we're not saying it's a treatment and you're also not labeling it as a behavioral treatment right but this is the takeaway yeah we weren't doing it as a treatment we weren't doing it as this but the takeaway I got right from John Bailey and I so support and respect him um he said basically okay like it's kind of that gray area where you know it's not evidence based yet right so if we're trying to you know promote evidence based stuff where this may not be needs more years of research but he said this and it stuck with me he's like you could do it of course like as long as you are saying what you're doing you're not recommended it is treatment you're actually this he's like but like are there other people that you could get instead like like you know and I was like we do we have other people and he's like so there's no like just you know unless you're dying and you need that money like so bad basically he just said like over and over we did a lot of emails back and forth was just like do you really need to do it and I'm like no and it's like exactly there's a certain extent to which like if you're really that uncomfortable with it then just know like like it doesn't have to be like a you know a life or death decision and I think a lot of you know um so a lot of behavior analysts um are you know afraid to leave jobs where they're being asked to do things that make them uncomfortable and it's not and not for fine I completely understand being afraid to leave a job for financial reasons um but it's not because of that I hear it all the time it's oh because my clients need me and they you know they don't have enough help and blah blah blah blah blah and but there are so many clients who need you and you are not a tree you do not have to stay where you are planted you can get up and go someplace um so you know there there's a time when you know saying no is totally appropriate and it's you know like I would I would agree with him like it's that you know if it makes you uncomfortable and you have other options then certainly you could could you get away with it yeah but why yeah why try exactly that's where I took my take away from it once I really a you know we always we talked about this a little bit earlier walk around very very anxious and oh my god it might ethically by you know engaging in this even though I'm it's my personal life or blah blah blah and anytime you have those feelings of uncomfortability or questioning it's you know nice to reach out to someone who has more experience than you especially being a new BCBA and run it by them and you know you don't know what you don't know right and it helps when you can talk it out with people and I was like I'm going right to the hotline I like to go right to the source and um and just that take away of is it do I do I do we have to do this we don't have to do it it's making us uncomfortable than no it's fine I mean I'm sure a lot of people hate us because like I have my reviews are like things behavior bitches I left my job I realize I don't have to be around assholes anymore and which I'm sure some companies are like these behavior riches have got to shut up but a big part of it is like we get these messages from people all the time like you don't understand like I'm working at this company they're doing this they are like billing for things they're not actually doing whatever it is and but I feel so bad for these families and I'm like get the F out like get out like you don't need to be there and if your place is pissed at you because you said something like get out and if you need to like like you are responsible for these kids that's what I'm saying I'm like you know you don't need like you have a license on the line here also so if you are around this I mean but so I'm just saying that it happens all the time so I think that's a good general advice for anyone listening not that we're trying to get more people losing their jobs but it also could benefit places that are doing great things and that you could go be a part of so if you're working somewhere and you just see an ethical practices over and over what's this what should someone do for like um so what should they do it really depends on what area of bad practices they're seeing so if they're seeing fraudulent billing that especially if like Medicaid fraud is a huge issue and there were a number of a big number of agencies in Florida that were caught doing all sorts of really bad Medicaid fraud so that really needs to be reported the first thing I would do is reporting. to your supervisor or the program director or someone because my suspicion, I mean, I can't read anyone's mind, my suspicion, some of the, some of the things that happened in Florida were so egregious that I'm like, that has to be a mistake that somebody messed up and then, and then didn't realize. So, um, so go to the director and say like, if this is a mistake, it has to be fixed. We have that chance to fix it, right? I think that chance to fix it. Um, and uh, so that would be one thing I would end if not it has to be reported. Otherwise, you could be liable as well. Um, so and if children are being hurt, you're a mandated reporter in that position, you have to protect the safety and health of the children. So if it's a legal issue that, you know, you have to, you have to do whatever you can to fix it. One thing that's tricky about our ethics is that we're the ones to study it, we're the ones who have a commitment to it and we're the ones who really have some level of fluency with it. Uh, so if you're, if the head of your agency is like an MBA or a psychologist or in some other field, they might not actually know what constitutes ethical and not ethical. So, um, so talk to them about it. Um, and you know, if you're talking to business, the advantage of having business people run ABA companies is that they have a background in making sure that the business is sustainable. So everybody gets paid, everybody has a job, everybody like these things, everybody has benefits. These are really important things. Um, the disadvantage is that you do have to sort of talk to them about what constitutes ethical and what isn't. Um, and I think it's important when you're talking to anybody to know your audience. So if the unethical practice is that you have, um, you have too many clients and they're too far in distance away from one another and you're spending like three hours a day in your car or four hours, upwards of four hours a day in your car going from clients to clients and you're being asked to do too much, well then those four hours that you're spending in your car, that's potentially another like more billet of hours that you're wasted. You only get 24 of them. So, you know, go to that MBA and say, I can't be doing this much traveling. It is a waste of my billable hours to spend them in the car. Like, let's get a system in place where BCBAs can have a community. Yeah, like, yeah, have like different reasons or, um, or, you know, do some things so that they're of course, they can be closer together so they don't have like four hours in the car every day or yeah, you have to really like form that as when you're running the business, um, that's a huge thing for the team to think about when they are assigning cases like that is where do you live and what's your radius like do we do a 30 mile radius for people, right? Do we? It's a lot of planning. And it's really important to do that planning and a lot of BCBAs are burnt out because they spend all their time in the car and I mean, if you run out of episodes of behavior bitches, what are you going to do? I was going to be like, I was going to be like, well, at least so many times you can listen to the same episode. I love you, Ian. Um, but no, I mean, that's that's a serious issue and Bernad is a serious issue and Bernad means that the the quality of your services gets lower and lower and lower and you know, not adequate pay means you're thinking about the water bill instead of thinking about your client and all these things, you know, the most valuable asset of any company, particularly an ABA company, is their human capital and they've got to treat that like it's really, really important. Otherwise, they've got nothing. I mean, that and that, I think and for every bad company for every bad practice, there are really good companies out there. So, you know, you can you can find a company that respects your time and your health and and and that's really that you bring to the company and part of, you know, and the ethics are part of the value you bring to the company. Like this is, you know, parents talk to each other, parents refer agencies all the time and this is a autism spectrum disorder is no longer a low incidence disability, but it's still a small community and people talk and you want to have a stellar reputation in the way that as an ABA company establishes a stellar reputation is the quality of their services and the quality of the people who provide them. If you burn out people, you're they're going to go and so really treating people well is the best investment a company can make and if you really and training and training training and training so important. Sarah Trotman, as Flinger talks or actually won't Sarah Trotman talks a lot about staff, you know, keeping stuff happy, right? And, you know, what you can do and involving them and creating it as this is a career field. This is not just a, you know, when you're a direct support, like there could be a career here and how do we foster that teaching and training opportunities and so they can move up the ladder and not just stay in that low level and burn out. Right, absolutely. And I think also, you know, like every organism learns best from reinforcement. I don't know if you ladies know this, but have you heard about reinforcement? I did, I heard that. I said that. We can make anyone's opinion. That's what blows my mind and I'm about to get passionate right here because, you know, because of doing this study notes and, you know, behavior, bitches and talking with different people all the time, I'm hearing about these poor practices or these clinics that are like overworking people are underpaying them or making them drive from Dallas to Burleson, Texas. And I'm like, you are literally studying applied behavior analysis about how to make people do different things. Like, why are they not practicing this within, with their staff, too? Like, I mean, it's like, are you not generalizing that what you're doing with these kids with autism also works for every single person in the world? Okay. Yeah. And also, by the way, it's in our ethics code that we should be using feedback that is likely to change behavior as supervisors. But, but even aside from that, aside from, I love how I'm like, aside from ethics, yeah, yeah, screw it. No, but aside from that, it's just, it's like the, you know, a lot of us are really our most potent reinforcer is the relationships that we form with families, the progress that we see kids make. But that that reinforcer takes so much, it's powerful. It is so powerful, but it takes so much work and so, and so much time. So if you just look at matching law, the delay of that reinforcer is, is huge. The, the, the effort involved is tremendous. The rate sometimes things work, sometimes we have to tweak, you know, like, that's not, it's not a guarantee. So, um, and sure, the magnitude of that reinforcer is really great, but, but if you can't count on the other things. So in the meantime, we really need to feel like we're doing a good job. We really need to cheer each other on and we really need to have the people who work with us cheer us on as well. And that, and just to behave your breakdown, I'm sorry, we cut it, I like, I came in, you could finish saying what you were saying, or I could give it a behavior breakdown. Give it a behavior breakdown. All right. Behavior breakdown. Okay, time for it. Matching law. What is matching law? Matching law is behavior goes where reinforcement flows. So if you have, if let's say you have a housekeeper who has two houses to clean, okay, she knows the one client pays $200 for her to go clean the house for two hours. And the other client pays $50 for her to go clean it for two hours. If she has the hashtag choice, she's going to go where there's more reinforcement available to the $200 house. The same is as Ann was saying with people working at a clinic or RBTs or BCBAs in that case, right? If the payout is really low or let's say you're working with a child with autism and you're getting, it takes a while to see some, you know, and you guys could fill in with anything along the way to get that gratification and that reinforcement of seeing a skill acquired. Sometimes it doesn't take that long, but sometimes it does. So matching law, if you're not getting that much reinforcement there, you're going to go look for reinforcement elsewhere or where you're getting it at higher rates. So what Ann is saying and add in anything and because you're way more seasoned than me, that we need to make sure as a clinic or a, you know, or whatever the company is, a school, whatever it is that we're also adding to that reinforcement level. It's not just that that the person is getting reinforced by. seeing the child make progress also through giving them pay that they could live on, giving them time, giving them supervision so they feel valued. That is just-- - It's so simple. A thank you is three and takes 10 seconds. Wow, that was great. It takes a second of your time. And it saves you hours of having that same person crying in your office because they don't know what to do. Like it just-- thank you takes a second. And what it costs not to say thank you is so much more than that. - Yes, definitely. Yes, amazing. Okay, so now we actually reached out to our listeners with some questions, but obviously we're a little selfish. So I have one question for you first. No, we're gonna ask you a few of those, but I have one question for you first. I actually am in one of the Facebook groups and there was-- I saw, I guess any media is good media, so we'll take it. Someone had asked in one of the groups about using the word bitch. So such as behavior bitches, right? We are using the word bitch to refer to ourself. And there was some concern from some BCBAs that we are not being professional in disseminating the science in a way it should be. And this is breaking some ethical code. So I know that my-- I don't G-A-F attitude could only go so far. So I actually want to ask your opinion. And you could be straight with us. We could take it. We get some negative feedback. And we like to actually use it. So I don't know what will change to if you do feel like this is an ethical violation. Behavioral booze or something that-- so can you give us-- if we are bringing any ethical issues, or like what are your thoughts on this? So the code about dissemination says that behavior analysts should be bringing the science of behavior analysis to the general public as much as possible. So what you guys are doing since you're mostly talking to other professionals is called internal dissemination. And this is like-- I don't know if you guys ever watched West Wing, but there was like somebody said, we're preaching to the choir. And then Toby Ziegler says, that's how you get them the same. So this is how you get people the same. This is like a lot of times like the shot in the arm, the reinforcer that people need is to have these casual conversations. I love the confessions of the behavior analysis Facebook group. I'm all the time sometimes complaining about trying to get school services for my kids or whatever. But I love that group. And part of what I love about it is that it does feel like a community. And so that's part of what-- so the value of the internal dissemination is-- it's really important. It's the code for reason. As far as whether or not you should say bitches, I think that this goes back to what I was saying before. There are things that are not-- it does not say don't say bitches in the ethical code. So it really boils down to is somebody uncomfortable? And why is that? And part of having a podcast like this is that not everybody is going to be comfortable with it. It's not everybody's jam. And-- Or a cup of tea, 23. But it's not going to be for everybody. And that's OK. It's not only OK. I think it's good because behavior analysts are not a monolith. I think that we consider this source, because I was just telling somebody that I'm rewarding myself at the end of this week with a pumpkin spice latte because I'm a basic bitch. So I use a tip. [LAUGHTER] But I do think that if you use a certain phrase, you're going to make people comfortable. And some people work comfortable, and some people less comfortable. And that's OK. And that's great, actually. I remember when I was mentoring with Bobby Newman, he had some situation with a school. And he was talking about-- and it was just a case where the principal of the school was just like 100% agree justly wrong. And then he was called into consult. And I said, Bobby, how did you not set-- he hates when I tell this story, by the way. [LAUGHTER] Well, what did you do here? We were already getting bad feedback, thank you. But I actually think that this story was some of the best advice I ever got. So I'm on a one-woman mission to prove to him that he's actually a wonderful mentor. But I said, how did you not say, what are you guys using for brains? And he said, if somebody behind me that are hiring somebody to say, what are you guys using for brains? And he was like, if I hire someone else, they're hiring somebody to finesse it a little differently. And I remember I met another behavior analyst who, one of his jobs, he was a consultant with a school district in Louisiana, where all the schools were threatened with being shut down and the judge ordered a consultant to come in and shape up their program. And I said, wow, do you have problems with compliance? And he just looked at me and he laughed. And he said, no, because I tell them I'm getting a paycheck either way. It's your paycheck that's not alive. So do what you want. And I thought to myself, and my personality is a lot softer. So I mean, I do really well in certain contexts, interdisciplinary teams, like pretty soon, everybody's doing ABA and loving it. So I'm really good at that. But I know that with my personality, I'd walk into those schools and I'd be like, OK, what do you want to do? All right, well, what do you see with those? And all of those schools would get shut down and then what would those kids do? So I mean, I think that they're-- I think it's really important to be yourself. And because people need exactly who that is, not all of the people, but there are a lot of people out there who need exactly that. And I think it's great. I was driving down the highway a couple months ago and I saw a sign. And it just rang true. It said, you're not pizza. Not everyone is going to love you. Oh my god. I think that-- So you know what? We're not pizza. Not everyone's going to love us. Our mission here is always to empower and support. And we have so many dedicated female listeners. And we're not ever-- that term is not used derogatory. It's not used as an insult. And it's not used-- We're not calling you it. And by the way, one of my favorite books ever. And it's going to sound like a dumb basic bitch book, but it's a really brilliant book. And it's called Why Men Love Bitches. And I read it years ago. And I tell everyone else to read it. But it actually speaks about a bitch-- not being a bitch, someone who's mean or terrible, a bitch being someone who's like an empowered woman who does-- they does themself. Like, doesn't cancel what's important for them to go cater to every single other thing, which I mean, I fell into the category of that too sometimes. But when we made this podcast, we actually said, there's already great podcasts out there for behavior analysts who are looking for some research in the field or something along those lines. So we said, we want to reach people who aren't necessarily behavior analysts. We have a lot of people listening, who are nurses, psychiatrist, other fields. And we're bringing behavior to them in a relatable way. So that was our goal with it. So thank you for giving us the feedback on that. I mean, context-- I'm going to quote Merle Winston, because they love what he says about context. So context is everything. And if you're walking your dog and cleaning up after your dog, that's fine. But if you don't have a dog, then you're just like a guy holding a bag full of poop. And that's weird. So-- Colleured. Matters. [LAUGHTER] Exactly. And this is our podcast for just to kind of let loose, let go of the everyday kind of structure that you're in, and have an outlet for people to just come listen to some stuff that they're going to learn, but also have some fun. So thank you. Do we have a couple other ethics questions for you? I had one question before we even do this, because I actually have to wrap this episode up earlier than I want to, because I have a tutor inquiry. We're going to have to do a part to you on this, actually. I know. So my question is, the genius of this book is that you interviewed people in the field for each chapter, for each code. That's what makes this book different, right? Yeah. And mostly, but I also interviewed people out of the field, which was kind of fun. And so there's a chapter on the behavior analyst as an employee, which-- so part one is like the code. And then part two, I took every role that the behavior analyst generally play. And I wrote a chapter about that and sort of using the fourth and fifth edition task list and saying, here's how we can navigate our professional behavior. So for the chapter on being an employee, there were a bunch of teacher strikes going on. And I was like, and there was a lot of buzz on Facebook that I noticed people were like, is it ethical to participate in a strike? And so I interviewed the president of the Illinois Federation of Teachers, and I talked to him about what collective bargaining actually is and why it's important and is it ethical. And so it's like a lot of people in the field who are amazing, but also a lot of people that are outside of my own area. of expertise and it was said that was really cool too. I love that. Then I have one question to follow up with that on in Casey we will let you go. So because Casey and I are recently at this tech sub-accomference in Houston and it had come up with the ethical code of accepting gifts. Even accepting gifts. Even accepting water okay and I remember them saying you're speaking with other professions about their ethical code and I remember Suzanne one of the speakers at this conference was or maybe she was talking to me on the side actually after and telling me you know I used to work at the BACB I think it was absolutely crazy that you can't accept water from a client or from a parent or whatever it is and she was like an actually if you look at a doctor's ethical code it says that they are they are even allowed to accept like someone's entire inheritance except they should maybe think about not accepting it if there is a like a like a a child to the parents or something and so I'm like that is a completely different thing this is like accepting someone's inheritance and I can't take a bottle of water so can you touch on this a little bit like what can someone do if they get a gift or a some a kid draws them a picture what's the deal with that to me it always seemed weird like I always took the picture to be honest weird and I think that you know like going back to our ethical code is for us and not for anyone else I think that it can get into awkward situations now one way to prevent gift giving is to communicate at the outset before anybody gives you a gift like as part of your contract when you're starting a case say you know like I don't accept gifts gift aren't necessary don't bother but so that's one thing and everyone's like just do that problem solve la la la but that doesn't always solve the problem and actually there there was an episode of curbure enthusiasm about this that when we hear no gifts like most people's history of reinforcement is that you give a gift anyway like nobody wants to go empty handed to a birthday party and so what do you say no gifts that first of all what is going to be inter first of all people are or have a history of reinforcement with giving a gift anyway and secondly how people interpret what a gift is might be different so like oh this isn't a gift this is just I just made I made Christmas cookies and I'm giving it to you or like this you know that's that may not feel gifty to them it may feel like an exception so for me a gift is a Valentino bag or something so water is a primary reinforcer right so like if I'm in a client's house and I need water I'm gonna take a glass of water well I would argue with you that maybe you shouldn't be using it as a reinforcer because it's sort of like a human right that's what I mean yeah yeah just a need just like an unconditioned like I just need it because like my mouth is dry and I'm gonna die and I have water and don't die is the bottle I remember nothing else from this podcast remember don't die but the BICB newsletter in May of 2015 which I know because that's another thing I cite all the time I love your brain I love your brain you are like a cider Mccider steam I'm writing everything down for the show notes I'm like I'm voting okay so in May 2015 I kind of clarified the position on gifts and I like to dramatize this a little because like I like imagining it in my head so the so we do have some anecdotal data that gift giving could be problematic so they have this one case where somebody the accusation was that a BCBA had a band in the client and a through the investigation the family said I can't believe they did that this is all from the newsletter I can't believe they did that you know how could they when you know they when we've done so much for them and then the BACB was like whoa whoa whoa hang on did what did you do for them exactly and then it turned out that the that this BCBA was going to family parties and vacations and was treated like one of the family and it was all like so it wasn't just like a here's a handmade card it was a lot more than that um a much more relationship as well so I mean there is an arc you could make like a like an incrementalist argument like it started off as a small thing and then it was one thing after another until this multiple relationship kind of evolved um so we do have that anecdotal data my concern is whenever we're looking at the BACB's data we're we're missing something just for the nature of the beast and it's not the BACB's fault and it's not anybody's fault we're missing data from people who reject ABA because they find it objectionable so that's all you know the people who really believe in ABA or the ones who are going to report stuff to the board the people who believe that ABA can be better than this they're going to report things to the board the people who believe that this is ABA and a socks are not going to report to the board because why would you like but they're like kind of part of the problem right so um so one thing we don't have data on is how that can harm a a relationship but the BACB in this newsletter did clarify look you know there is you really need to evaluate you're not only allowed to but encouraged to think about intention of a gift so if you really feel like this is a you know like a quid pro quo kind of saying like oh I'll babysit your child so that you can come to the set I've had parents say like oh bring your sick kid and I'm like no I'm not bringing my sick kid to infect your whole house like that seems like an idea that will be really bad tomorrow but um but you know and and the intention is they're just trying to help but um but there could be unintended consequences there so the BACB does say that you can consider the intention of a gift so if a if not accepting a gift would be more harmful to the therapeutic relationship then you can accept it I mean not a not a car not a vacation not housing you know let's not go nuts but let's say someone ordered you a custom cup with your name Leot on it from Etsy right like they were so proud to get my name custom on it there's no other Leot they're gonna give it to so and I think it actually will be more harmful yeah if with yeah in that case it would be more harmful to the you know relationship now in some cases what I recommend to supervise is saying oh my gosh this is so thank you so much this is so thoughtful of course you know I like you never need to do this and like really making that point again like this is not a relationship where where you know you have any sort of obligation to make me happy but you know like clarifying that to them but in that case especially if it was you know Leot on a cup I would I would probably be one of you case your Ann you'd be fine to find another you know there's potentially another BCBA or RBT out there who might have that name but me it's like context right all about context and sometimes you know and sometimes I might say you know like if it's if it's something I might say like is there a charity I can donate this to in your name that you know like that is there you know is do you have a favorite like if you know if somebody's giving you money or something I might say you know what this really undoses are in very sweet um I I could donate this in your name to a charity that that you believe in um so or something like that they're you know there are certainly compromises but you do we are encouraged to think about that what the effect would be on the therapeutic relationship so now we have a question from one of our listeners who wrote this in she said what do I do when I'm at a client home the mom interrupts and administers magnesium and melatonin during the sessions if the client is quote unquote hyper even if we are ignoring a behavior per the behavior plan what do I do okay so this is a kind of a complicated situation and it involves a lot of stuff going on um one thing I would definitely ask is if those supplements are being given under a doctor under a doctor's guidance so in order like you definitely want to rule out any kind of medical or biological factors and you also have to make sure that the child is safe so magnesium um in the kind of high doses that um that have there is some evidence base for magnesium um but it has a lot of side effects so you know talk to the parent first of all talk to the parent about whether or not their pediatrician is aware and is monitoring this the giving the medication second um so if you're ignoring the behavior um I assume that the parent has given consent for this program at some point so you may want to revisit that it's it's a really hard thing for parents to say no that's not going to work for our family but we have to be ready to work with that um and if there is room to make some sort of modifications that would make the parent more comfortable, you should be ready to do that too. And the third thing I would think about, and this is in the fourth edition task list, we have under K02, it says analyze the contingencies of those who carry out behavior change programs. Now in this case, the parent's not carrying it out, but we still have to think about analyzing contingencies. So when I talked before about cigarette Glenn and the interlocking behavioral contingencies, one of the clearest examples of an interlocking behavioral contingency is a baby cries, and then the baby gets picked up. So the antecedent for the baby is like some discomfort or boredom or hunger or whatever, or being cold, and then the baby is reinforced, the crying is reinforced when they're picked up. But the three-term contingency for the parent is this aversive condition of their baby crying, and then they pick up the baby. So while there's positive reinforcement going on from the perspective of the baby, there's negative reinforcement going on from the perspective of the parent. And for the record, I fully support like picking baby. I think it's deep in our biology to do that. I think that if plants would cry, I would water them and I wouldn't have dead plants. So the loudest cave baby got the most care and was most likely to survive. I definitely think there is like a, there's an evolutionary element to that. - To that, yeah. - So one thing you can think about is the contingencies for this parent are probably that she hears, perhaps from the other room, or perhaps she's witnessing what she interprets as hyper. There may be an anxiety response on their part, and then they deliver this medicine, and they feel like, okay, now my child's gonna be better, and then there's some relief from that anxiety. So one thing we could try and do is address that situation. Try and make whatever is this parent is defining as hyper 'cause if it's quote unquote hyper, I'm not sure if like my kids are pretty hyper. (laughs) So when I was poor, it's not very operational. - Yeah, it's not really operational. So really talk to the parent about like, what is it that makes you feel like they need the magnesium and the melatonin? Especially the melatonin is generally given for sleep. So that is defined particularly like iffy. So, I mean, you don't want them falling asleep. - Yeah, absolutely. - So I would say your first bet is really talk to the parent about like, what about what you're saying is hyper, what about what you're calling hyper concerns you? What can we do to address that concern? And is there something that we could do that would make you more comfortable with this process? Like because if you're ignoring a behavior, that the most powerful thing for behavior analysts is understanding what an extinction burst is. Like understand. - I was about to say, shouldn't you let the parent know as like an antecedent to what it's gonna look like? Because I mean, I have a brother with autism and I remember my mom being like so embarrassed if let's say like he was getting ABA in the house and he would start biting and attacking when he was three. I mean, now he's 22. But you know, and then she feel like she needed to go get involved but essentially would be reinforcing the behavior when they were trying to let's say, right? Like not give him attention for it. And so I think as a parent, they might, you know, they're more concerned probably also for the therapist there. And they're like, well, I don't want to seem like I'm not involved at all or not trying to help them out if my kids straight up attacking them or beating the crap out of them. So I would think that that would be like one good antecedent approach as well just to. - Absolutely. Yeah, the parent should understand that you've got this all under control. And really, you know, have like a very friendly calm conversation with the parent. Like and you know, smile the whole time. And you know, and really communicate even if you have to think it, that like this can all be worked out and this can all be resolved. And I like to say that behavior analysts have to be like flight attendants. So if you're on a flight and there's turbulence, the person next to you is allowed to say, holy shit did you just feel that? But if the flight attendant says it, you're like, oh my, you're like calling all your loved ones on the air phone like, oh, goodbye. Like that is too scary. You're looking to the flight attendant to see if they are calm. - Absolutely. - You're calm, you're calm. So you really need to, you know, make sure that your, you know, communicating to the parent, like this really is okay. You know, like he's, he's not, you know, he is safe. And he is cared for. He is happy, he is healthy, he is safe. And he's loved even in the room with me. And that is, you know, that might help the situation a little bit. - That is a beautiful answer. Okay. And last question. And we're definitely gonna have to have you on again because like this is not actually the last question we have. (laughing) So last question, someone wrote, at lunch my BCBA supervisor withholds my client chips and uses them as a reinforcer for sitting nights at the table. This is the only food my client eats as he is very selected with different foods. And as a result, he gets no lunch. What should I do? So this is someone who is an RBT. - So this is an RBT. Definitely tell your supervisor that that is his lunch. And that's, you know, at, it is, it is both unethical and illegal to deprive a child of lunch. So you're, that definitely has to be brought to the attention of the BCBA, that this is the food that he eats. So if she is working on food selectivity, if he is doing them thing that she feels justifies withholding chips, then she should be able to explain that to you and explain how he's getting nutrition otherwise. If that doesn't work, if the problem still continues, then you need to go to your BCBA's supervisor and address it with them. Because it's really, that's a will human rights violation that kid has to eat. It's unfortunate that potato chips are kind of what most of us think of as a snack, but that's their calories, that's their nutrition. And they have to eat. - Girls gotta eat. - Yes. - Girls gotta eat. All of us have to. - Yes. - Me a little too much. (laughs) - Food is good. And also, I just think, and not to say with what you just said, but it could be difficult at times, because sometimes you have to question what someone who is a higher authority than you is doing. And that is like a huge issue, but also, and I just, what, and just to close that, as an RBT, are they held to the same ethical standards as a, let's say, BCBA? - There is a newly released RBT ethical code. And it's basically like the code used to have like RBT in a bunch of spots, and now they kind of like pulled out all the relevant stuff or art pieces. It's not like a huge change, but it's like a new document that kind of cuts trims the fat of what RBT is needed to know. But that would still be something that first try and resolve it with your BCBA, and I'm gonna be honest with you. I've had people say things to me and say, like, I don't think we should do this program, you know, for XYZ reason. And I've been like, oh, you know what, good point. Okay. - So, me, me, me, because also that's our first set of eyes often, right? Like a lot of the times, like, these aren't just only, quote unquote, RBT's, these are like the eyes, the ears, the people who are the most important who are applying these programs. - Yeah, they are the point of communication. So, absolutely, they should be, and, you know, I've had people who came to me looking all nervous and said, you know, like, there was a speech therapist who came to me and was looking all nervous, and there was a program that I was running with the kid who had a lot of digestive issues. And one of the programs that I was running, the kid was getting sued at other times, but I was running a also working on vocal communication as food as a reinforcer. And the speech therapist said, I don't think we should do that because I don't want to like have, you know, like I want to make sure that the kid's getting enough nutrition. And I was like, oh, okay. I didn't say that. (laughs) - I actually, like, I've appreciated it. I always appreciated it because like, I can't possibly be with the client as much as I would love to be because I have responsibility of multiple clients. So, I actually love it. And I would say seek out a supervisor who values you also, who could teach you, but also values what you are doing. I think that's also just like a very important for a good relationship. And when finding a supervisor to make you an awesome BCBA letter. - Yeah, and this is, you know, like, they should be relying on your eyes and ears there. Like, you are the main point of communication between the client and the client's family and the BCBA. So, that shouldn't be just a BCBA letter. to be a dictating to you, that should be a BCBA who's like ready to listen and know what you know. - I love that. Okay, and we have so many more questions, but not enough time, because we do have some data on the actual attention span of listeners. - Well, I will go forward to a part two. - We will definitely be doing a part two. If you're in the collective, you'll be seeing Anne on the 11th, I think, for Ethics class. - Yeah. - I'm gonna sit back and chill in my star pajamas that I'm wearing for this podcast right now, so Anne could just take it away during that class. Anyways, Anne, thank you so much for coming on. - It was my pleasure. - Thank you, Anne. - Oh, my pleasure. Literally my pleasure. - I would love to pick your brain more like outside of the podcast too. Just, I'm so excited to read your book and learn about you more, so thank you. - Thank you so much. It's been fun. You make Ethics sound way more interesting than I had ever learned them in my classes. It's just rules, so thank you so much. - Oh, thank you. Thanks so much for having me. - You guys could find Anne's contact information in the show notes and thanks guys for tuning in. As always, subscribe to our content. Leave us a five star review. Thanks, love you. - Mean it. (upbeat music) - Hey guys, it's Leigh Ott. - And Casey, we just want to take a second to let you know that if you're thinking of being a millennial like us and starting your own podcast, there is a way. - You can do your show without having to become an audio editing and production wizard. 'Cause guess what? We don't know shit with that. But we have Alan, that pretty easy podcast who helped us get started. He records our shows. He posts them, he adds awesome, awesome music and cool shit when we don't even know what he's doing. He sends us teaser episodes. He does it all. We just sit here and friggin' talk. - We shoot the shit and you can record from home, your office, the park, a bathroom stall at work, it doesn't matter. He provides the complete podcast studio. All you need is a microphone and you're good. Alan caters to your schedule and gives you a producer for your show at your back-end call. He has been super flexible with our schedule. Whenever we need him, we go to Google Calendar. We just book him and he does all the hard work. It's like so incredibly easy. That's why it's probably called Pretty Easy Podcast. - So be heard and have some fun podcasting like us. Go to prettyeasypodcast.com today. (upbeat music)