ETHAN HAWKE - Actor / Director

[MUSIC PLAYING] Hi, and welcome to season two of the Team Deacons podcast, a collection of informal conversations between Roger and James Deacons and August. We never know where the conversation will take us, so listen in and see where it goes. [MUSIC PLAYING] This episode is sponsored by Aperture, a global company pioneering LED lighting technology for cinema with cutting-edge hardware and software solutions. Recently, Aperture expanded its lighting ecosystem with the new Infinimates series of matte lights. They offer unmatched output, IP65 weather proofing, and full pixel control over DMX. Discover more about the Infinimates and Aperture's lighting ecosystem at Aperture.com. Today, we're speaking with an actor and director. His list of credits as an actor is long and includes training day, moddy, Juliet naked, and Raymond and Ray. Among his directing credits are Wildcat, the last movie stars, and blaze. We're pleased to welcome Ethan Hawke today. Ethan, thank you for doing this. Yeah, thank you for doing this. Oh, thanks for having me. It's an honor to talk to you, too. We'd like to start with our question. How did you get to where you are today? Did you always know as a kid that you wanted to be an actor or did you think you might be something else and find it later? What's your story? Well, I started so young. I started before I could know what I wanted. You know, like a lot of children I loved performing. I think my relationship to it now is completely different than perhaps my motivation was when I was younger. I was raised by a single mom. And she didn't ever knew what to do with me after school. So I went and took an acting class with a friend of mine because we could get up. His parents would drive me and drive me home. So my mother liked this. And I did, I was taking this acting class at the Paul Robeson Center for Performing Arts in New Jersey. And this guest director, he worked at the MacArthur Theatre there at Princeton. And he came by to give a guest lecture and they did some improvs and things. And after it was over, he asked if I would be in a play he was directing, which seemed like quite an honor. And my mother said yes, and I was in George Bernard Shaw's St. John at MacArthur Theatre when I was 12 years old. And I was done was page. And I just loved it. And I loved listening to the actors rehearse. And that particular play is very beautiful. And these grownups are sitting around talking about whether they believed in God or not and what faith was and who John of Arc was. And I got to wear armor and carry a sword. And the woman who played Joan of Arc was, her name was Stacey Ray and actors. And she was incredible. And I would watch her rehearse. And it was, well, so many of the grownups in my life were unhappy at work. Work was something they had to do. And they were people that were living for the weekend. And these particular people and not just the actors, the costume people and the lighting people and the directing staff was so compelling to me. Everybody was so interested in what they were doing. And that I was kind of hooked. And I found out about some big casting calls for other things in New York. And one of my first auditions, I got the part and they flew me to Los Angeles, California. And I acted in my first movie when I was 13. So doors-- What was that, can I ask? It was called The Explores. You'd be glad to know John Horace shot it and was directed by Joe Dante. And Joe Dante was a great mentor for a young person because he'd kind of come up in Roger Corman's whole festival of cheap cinema. But Joe had this amazing sensibility of loving every kind of movie. He would love Bergman movies and talk all about them. And he would love strange genre films. And he'd talk about creature from the black legume like it was Dosteski. And-- I was met. And he-- He was a wonderful mentor. After that experience, child acting is something to be really afraid of. It doesn't lend itself to a healthy childhood. And I kind of stopped doing it professionally until I graduated from high school. And then I auditioned for Dead Poets. Which three years, 14 to 17, when you are-- it felt like eternity to me. I felt like I'd given it. But now it doesn't sound like very long. But then I auditioned for Peter Weir. And I would say that was really one of my professional life as an actor started working. John Seale shot that. And being near them, their collaboration was really inspiring to be near the way that they talked about film and thought about film was-- something as a young person, you don't unsee. They love to go to museums and look at art books and listen to music. And they were drawing from all the arts their remarkable team. Because I think they really, something that's harder and harder to do, which is make artistically substantive movies that are commercially viable. It's threading the needle that is very, very difficult to thread. But so that was an incredible introduction. And of course, the themes of that movie for a young person are kind of staggering about Gather You Rose Buds, while he may, and you know, live life to its fullest, carpe diem, all the Whitman stuff. So it was a great environment to be in as a young person. Also as an actor, I was surrounded by a company. There were so many, it wasn't like I was thrust into celebrity or all the negative accoutrements of the profession. I was just one of an ensemble. But I got to work at a very high level with really gifted people. Yeah. And then after that, I don't know if it was the next one, but you did White Fang, right, which I worked with you. Yeah, that was right when we met. And that was the next one. You know, after Dead Poets Society had gone to NYU, it kind of was, I just didn't think acting was something a person could do for a living very viably. And so I was also really interested in writing. And so I went to NYU for a little while. And then Dead Poets Society was a big hit. And they offered me White Fang. And I was a huge Jack London fan. And I wanted to go to Alaska. And that's where we've been. But that must have been so different. Because I remember it wasn't what John Steele and Peter Rear would have been. It was a very different film. It was incredibly lonely for me, you know? Really? It was profoundly lonely. We were out there in Hainesville. I was there for six months. You know, I went out a month early to train with the wolves. So that these wolves would be comfortable near me. And you know, the sun would come up at 10.30 and go down at 2.30. It was January and Alaska and there was no internet. And the mail came once a week. In Hainesville, you know, it was an incredible experience. But did you feel like Jack London? I mean, I felt like the acting equivalent of Jack London. You know, I read a lot when I was there. I played guitar, you know, the sun. Pious Savage was a native actor who was in the movie. He played this character, great beaver. And he was just as bored as I was. And he was nice to me. And we learned Hank Williams songs in the bar in the afternoon. And I used to listen to the stuntmen compare scars with the fishermen and lumbermen out there. And I did feel like I was kind of writing it. Someday, I really hoped to write a novel about that experience because it was really kind of, you know, and it was wild. You'd see Eagles rip salmon out of the water. I remember driving to work once and a moose was chasing us. A bear came out one time. It was insane. But I was 18 and desperate for to be near young people and young women and I was so lonely. Because, you know, everybody else was a grown up. And I don't know if you remember this, but at a certain point, early in the production, our production manager was a recovering alcoholic. And he was hell bent that I not be allowed in the bar. But the problem is, I didn't care about drinking. I just wanted to be with everybody. But he went, there was nowhere else to be but the bar. And everybody hung out there, that's where dinner was. And I wasn't allowed to be up in my room listening to the radio. I didn't even have a television. Oh, that's bad. But do you think, though, do you think that experience kind of was reflected in your performance? Because they kind of, you know, playing a guy that was pretty out there. I would be hard pressed to say that I gave a performance to be honest. I was so young and without Peter's, Peter Weer was so interested in the actor. And he was so interested in humanity and people. And I didn't know how to do that myself yet. I needed a director to create an environment to do good work. And so I think I mostly stood around and posed a lot. I remember the most profound experience I had in the movie was with Clint Rowe, who was the animal trainer, who he was an artist. I mean, he was incredible, the work that he would put in to get something special from these animals and what he wanted me to, you know, I used to go on walks for hours with these. They're half dogs, half wolves, you know. And that's what I remember. If I were, I would often joke, I say it as a joke, but it's really true. If I were to teach an acting class at Juilliard or something, I don't think there could be a better thing to do than to force actors to do scenes with animals. Because animals sense if you're self-conscious. You know, they really sense it. And they don't know what's bothering you. And if you're very cognizant of where the camera is, so are they. And if you're really present with them, they will interact with you. And it's the same as true with human beings, of course. So when you act, do you try and ignore camera and everything else around you? No. You're very aware of the frame. And what-- the frame is your stage. It's the proscenium. And you have to make the frame your best and close to a secret friend and share secrets over there. If you're not cognizant of where the camera is, you can do all this great work that the camera doesn't see. It happened to me a lot when I was young. I would think I had this great moment, not really understand that the camera wasn't picking it up. Yeah. That's funny, because a lot of actors don't seem to realize that, though. It takes a while to know. It takes a while to be able to both see it and not see it. I mean, I think that's the people who have worked with that are really magnificent. Power of their imagination is so great that they can put themselves in this incredibly unreal situation and make it real and make the camera a part of their performance. And where the camera is your friend, it's a part of the creation of it. And it's also when you're on a set and you're working on what you're doing to feel that you're connected to the people surrounding you, that it's all a collaboration to me. It makes it a less lonely place. And I think better work. I think when I've done any work that I feel proud of it, it usually has to do with the collective imagination where was that the DP's idea? Was that the operator's idea? Was that the director's idea? Was that in the script? I don't remember. But there's some magic moment that happened and you don't quite know how it came to be because it had to do with the people in the room. Yeah. How does you were saying when you were a kid, your relationship with acting and what you felt about acting? How has that changed then? Since you become a very well-established actor, do you still have the sense of that sense of mystery and kind of wonder you must have had as a kid? I might say I have a more mystery and wonder now. I think when I was a kid, I wanted to be seen. I wanted to be noticed. I wanted to be real. I wanted to exist in a world that felt like it didn't see anything or you didn't matter. And then slowly you realize that it's a very dangerous place to draw yourself a steam from the arts. I started to realize that I am seen. I can see myself and then I can start to have the mystery and wonder. It's such an amazing feeling when you make something that touches other people and communicates and you connect with other people. It's a little bit like how it's a high that is seductive. And I dream of being in a creative collaboration again. I've had a handful of times when you're like, wow, this is really special. We're doing something here that is in concert with the collective consciousness or something. I like the words. That's where the mystery and wonder comes in. And I don't know what creates that. I know I have to work or it won't happen for sure. But I've had experiences where it doesn't happen. And I've had experiences where it does. Yeah, I agree with you. It's like it's a magic. You can't really describe it. I mean, that's the wonder of filmmaking. I think there's something there that's not literature. It's not just music. It's not just images. There's something you can't really explain. As you say, it's that collaborative sort of coming together and making something that's intangible, really. It's a dance with something bigger than yourself. And when you do that with other people, it's very exciting. I remember doing a scene with Julie Delpey and we were on a boat on the sand right as the sun was setting. And we were doing this two shot. And I had this feeling of like, oh, remember this, my whole life, this moment that's happening. And then as it turned out, that was the poster. That exact moment turned into the poster before sunset. And I remember when we had the idea that we should get on a boat. And I remember like, oh, thank God the skies are clear. It was a particularly wonderful sunset. And we're going right by Notre Dame right as the winds blowing in her hair. And Link Letter is such a wonderful director. And there was such a great feeling of camaraderie on that set of trying. You know what, it was just one of those moments where you feel like you're part of some larger river. Yeah. And you've worked with people multiple time, like Link Letter, you've worked with many times. And it's that because you don't-- because you already have that shorthand and you can get further. I mean, we find that when we work with people that we've worked with. Yeah, it's like being in a band. We don't need-- oftentimes, especially when I was younger, but I still do sometimes is-- kind of feel like the last week of filming, I'm hitting my stride, you know, my confidence is getting up. Particularly with characters, you know, you spend the first couple of weeks trying to find the character's voice. Is that too much? Is that funny? Is that not funny? Is that right? Is that funny in the right way? And then you find it, and then it's over. And you kind of wish, if I could just do the first three weeks again, and when you work with a director that you know, or even sometimes an operator that I know gives me confidence, you know, it's a very-- that's a very powerful relationship. But I will also say with it to speak about Link Letter, particularly his sensibility, what he finds cinematic, and what he finds powerful, his desire not to hyperboleize or embellish life, is speaks to me, and I'm very comfortable on his sets, because it's very, very like-minded and the kind of art we want to put in the world. So it's even better than just the time put in. It's-- I like the brain there, you know, it suits me. Obviously, I like all kinds of movies. But what suits my instrument is him. To that point, how do you work? Do you like a long rehearsal period? Do you like a script that's locked? Or do you like a script that's kind of fluid, you know, depending? I mean, you know, we work with Colin Brothers, and really, the script doesn't change. The words don't change, it's-- but other directors, it's more malleable. How do you like to work? Well, I find it so interesting that-- I mean, as the cinematographer and as an actor, we have the great privilege-- or lots of professions. Like what I'm saying is directors, you know, Sidney Lamette, Spinner All his life on Sidney Lamette sets. I've worked with that guy. I'm still for one. I've worked with Peter Weer. I've worked with Dan Twan Fuqua. I've worked with-- you know, I've worked with so many people who work different ways. And so there isn't one way to work personally. I mean, if I was working with the Colin Brothers, I wouldn't want them to change the script, because they're great writers. Like, and different filmmakers have, you know, different muscle sets. You know, Tarantino and the Colin Brothers are such phenomenal writers. They've set them as self-assigned by the power of their writing. You know, Anton Fuqua is extremely good with movement and energy and flow. He-- the camera and the storytelling all changes based on what you're doing. And that's very exciting, too. Sidney Lamette loves to rehearse. We took three weeks, and we performed the entire screenplay for the first AD and the cinematographer in a garage with tape on the floor, you know? And that worked for Sidney. And therefore, it worked for me. And what was wonderful about that was-- there was so much time to have ideas that if you had them on set, you'd screw people up. Like, if I walk-- if we were filming something, and I show up on set, we haven't met. And I say, I think my character is missing a leg. And we're like, what? Why are you being such a pain in the ass that we did the costumes aren't right for that? But if you have three weeks of rehearsals before you shot, you can have those kind of conversations. You know, I can give you an example. Or-- you know, I remember Phil Hoffman was doing a scene where, when we were rehearsing it, he was crying really hard. And Sidney was like, you have to remember, this is-- you're driving a car. So you won't be able to cry this hard. And Phil's like, oh, yeah, right. But then Sidney said, you know what? That was amazing that you got so upset about that. Let's pull the car over. And the first AD was there. And the day was planned so that when the character said this thing, he pulled the car over. And that wouldn't have happened without that rehearsal. He would have just had to stifle that emotion. And that was the way Sidney works. I don't know about you guys, but I've learned the hard way that you're not going to change the way a director learns to work. I mean, you can inch him a little bit towards something to help you make. But if they hate rehearsal, there's no point in having a rehearsal. If they ask for rehearsal, there's no point in not giving it to them if you want to do good work. Because I'm a dove, for example. He just loves rehearsal. It's important to his confidence, you know, to-- Right. He doesn't feel ready if he didn't talk through every nuance of the shoot with everybody. And do I think-- I thought he was a genius. I thought we could have done it. I thought first day it was awesome. But he didn't. And there's lots of little things that happen that are probably much better because we took that time. But I have definitely worked with other directors that they're just-- until the camera's up, they don't know what you're even talking about. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting, though, conversely, we work with actors that don't like rehearsing. Or they don't mind rehearsing. They'll do a read-through. But when they rehearse, it's like you're doing a read-through. They'll not actually do anything contribute to it. But when they're on set, suddenly, the character kind of comes alive. It's kind of interesting, some different people. It is. And there's certain actors that get a real high off of surprising everybody. It's part of the energy that drives them and feeds their emotional life. And I have a theater background. And I believe that a lot of times the magic comes from discipline. I don't need to surprise you, to surprise you. I think I like sharing. I like my scene partner and the collaborators I'm working with to have a sense of what I'm up to. But if somebody's freaking genius, and they don't want to surprise me, that's fine, too. I learned to go with the river, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we've also worked with actors where one couldn't. It didn't want rehearsals just because they wanted to find it on the set. That's what they wanted to do. But the other one wanted rehearsals to find it before he got to the set. And that's when you need a great director to provide leadership there to get. Because at the base of this, it's two different types of players. And we all have seen movies, where it seems like one person is in one movie and another person is in another movie. And to my mind, that's bad directing. The director's job is to make-- we see the great films, the camera, the performance, the costumes, the production design, the music, are all fingers of one fist, and that it knocks you out. You don't know what was the performance of the photography or was it the landscape or was it the music? It just worked. And I think that's what makes the great directors great is they figure out how to get disparate artists working in the same way, or at least to benefit each other somehow. Have you worked without game specific, I suppose? Have you worked with a director you found? He's very visual, but not really doesn't give you much as an actor. We said about Hitchcock. They act as to Hitchcock. We're just sort of-- -Cattle and cats. -Yeah, he moved around, you know? -Yeah, I made this documentary about Paul Newman. One of the things I had to shortchange in the final film because it was so long with his relationship with Hitchcock, which was awful, you know. They hated each other. It's kind of-- I found it fascinating how two people are both excellent at what they do couldn't find a way to be mutually beneficial, you know? And I thought as a student of what we do, I thought that both of them were exceedingly ungenerous. And that's when bad things happen when Paul needed to adapt a little bit. And I was surprised at how brittle Hitchcock was. I had no patience to even help him out. And I have-- that's the hardest thing for me is I love a great visually oriented movie. But when the director doesn't take the time to let me in on what we're trying to do, I'll give you an example like, let's say the director plans-- there's a four-page scene and he plans it all for one shot. And then I arrive on set and see a techno crane, and I realize that, oh, they're going to follow me in from this room to this room to this room. And in my mind, I've prepared this differently. I thought we'd do a shot of me getting out of the car and shot of me walking in the thing and a shot of me sitting down at the table. And they would be-- but now my imagination was thinking of a whole different movie. And then that's where you need-- you know, I don't know what you-- if you call it rehearsal, but I want to be lead into the game. And sometimes, some directors, their primary relationship on set is the DP. And some directors, their primary relationship on set is the lead actor. And sometimes, their primary relationship is to the writing. And those have been the three that I really clock. And I love it when they don't-- it's like a parent that lets you know which is their favorite kid. I don't want to know. I don't want to know which sibling my parents like best. I want to believe we're all in this together. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because that's what prep is for us is disseminating the information among all of us to know where we're headed and what the focus is. And I never really thought of it that actually the actors aren't part of our prep. So they're not knowing which way we're going. And there's a film of yours that we really love. I mean, we rather love your work. But I'm just thinking of Mordy. And I'm just thinking about your choices. And that's such a wonderful, small film. And it's so acutely observed. And then just what we're talking about, how did you approach that? Or what was the process? And you shot, like, a boy who had you shot in different periods because you needed sort of summer and winter, right? Can you talk about that film? I was just like, it's such a wonderful movie. Well, Mordy was directed by Ashling Walsh. And she was really remarkable in that her relationship with Sally Hawkins, it was a phenomenal collaboration to be near. They were very sensitive and attuned to each other. Because that's a movie that's central engine is her performance. Everything, the photography, the supporting performances are all working towards Sally and Mordy. It's all about her, really. And every nuance really mattered. And there are certain directors that I could imagine being frustrated with Sally's aspirations for excellence. Sally asked a lot of herself. And therefore, a lot of her partners. And I loved it. I thought there was only way this movie was going to be special as if she did that. I love her acting. And I was moved by that script. I just hadn't seen that movie before. And it's getting obvious the older I get, how much how interested I am in the arts in general. And there's something beautiful about Mord Lewis. And nobody in the world was rooting for her. And she found a way to carve out space for herself. And I was touched by it. So for me, I read scripts sometimes. And I read that script picturing Sally, going, wow, if Sally had a good partner, this could be a great film. And if she is a lame partner, this won't be interesting. And so I've also spent a lot of time in Canada. I'm sure you guys have too. I've shot a lot in Canada. And I had to hit on that guy. I knew how he talked. I knew I met him. You know, and it was a character I had in my head that I'd never been asked to play before. And I knew I could do it. And I was kind of touched that they thought of me. Because I wouldn't-- I don't know that I would have thought of me for that part. And so it's really one of my favorite working experiences because there's a handful of people. Sally, Denzel, Laurie Metcalf, Philip Seymour Hoffman, a lot of people. But those-- the few people that I just loved being on set with them. I loved the way they thought about every detail. And Sally was a type of actor that would say things like, I wouldn't sit there. And Ashley was like, where would you sit? And it didn't matter what her shot list was. That was important to her. And I just met other directors. I have no patience for that. Well, I want you over here because I've got the shot planned. And they don't take into consideration that the person playing the part-- they just assume you're screwing with them. Not that you have-- not that you have-- that you're striving for a level of emotional authenticity. And I found everything Sally said to be so smart and nuanced. And so yeah, but that's very different. The thing like boyhood, talking about that, is that we shot that over 12 years. So I mean, it was a wild ride. But it was very gentle and it was a little short film every year. And for five or six years, it felt like we didn't even know if the movie would ever come out. Didn't even matter. We just had a great time together. And then about seven or eight years in, it all started to be our favorite thing we'd ever worked on. We couldn't wait to show it to people. Is it hard to go back to a character, though, like that, and find the character again? Not at all. Rick and I are really close friends. And Rick's father is an actuary from Texas. And my father's an actuary from Texas. We're both from divorced families. And it was very clear when we started, we were doing a portrait of our fathers. And not so specific like that. But it was rooted in something really real to the two of us. And so it was very easy. We knew exactly what we wanted to do. I heard you a while ago you were talking about Maudi. And you said that some sets are all about cinematography or all about the writing. But this was so great because it was all about the acting. And so I thought, oh, so he wants a set that's all about acting and forget the technical ends. But then we saw the movies that you directed. And they also tell the story visually as well as in the characters. Yeah, and they're absolutely stunning to look at. I mean, so what's the deal? How do you do a film like Blaze, right? Which I can't imagine you had a huge amount of money or time. But again, it feels so authentic. But it's such a sort of marriage of performance of character of situation and-- Maud. Yeah, a film story telling atmosphere. It's a lot of brilliant. Well, thank you for that. But the reason why I said that about Maudi was not because I'm not visually oriented, but that that specific movie required it. There's like, if I did this movie, then the Northman with Robert Eggers and that movie is about the visuals. And I love that, too. That movie requires a level of discipline in the cinematography that is exceptional. Maudi requires that script is asking the collaborators. And just because the cinematography of Maudi isn't flashy doesn't mean they didn't do a great job. Oh, no, it's-- it is. Right. Yeah, it's really beautiful. Yeah, yeah. Incredibly well photographed. It's very-- But we say it's not imposing something on it. It's just allowing the characters you, the actors, to inhabit a space. And I love this about what we do, because sometimes as an actor, there's a time to step back and let the camera's going to do it. You don't need to force yourself into a situation that's not asking for it. It's all about a balance. And sometimes a great DP knows this shot is about what Sally is doing. That's what if this shot is going to be worth other people talking about paying money to see. It's because of what's happening with this character right now. And there's other times, hey, Ethan, this shot ain't about you. There's a snowstorm. And we've got a 30-long foot dolly shot. And you just got to turn left right when that horse crosses. And that's what's going to make the shot work. And then you have to do that. And you have to do it well. And what I love about what we do is each job is different. And what it requires from you. Sometimes you have a leading actor who's fragile, delicate, they need support in certain ways. And sometimes it's really important for somebody to be alpha and you have to let them. And you have to figure out how to be not just a good scene partner with the other actors, but a good extension. I like to think of each character as an extension of the director's imagination. When I say director, I mean, the camera's imagination, like we're in this dance with what the DP and the director are doing. And I felt it was really important, like on Blaze, for example, the director photography was Steve Cousins, who I had done. I'd played Chet Baker for him. And he was a DP that really gave me a tremendous amount of confidence. He, the way he watched, and sometimes the end of a work week, it's Friday, and everybody's leaving. And he would say, hey, no, yesterday in that scene, that was remarkable what happened right there. That was-- we have to do more fun for things like that. It was so wonderful to know he was watching, so intently. And I remember I had this experience in that movie where I was about to lose my temper. Something was going on in set, and I was like, I can't-- and I was doing a scene in a beach. And I was like, if this happens one more time, I'm just going to-- I'm going to walk out into the ocean, fuck this whole thing. And I did. So instead of losing my temper, I just walked into the ocean. And as I walked deep in, I'm stopping what I turned around, and Steve Cousins was right there. He knew I was going in. He watched-- he felt the whole thing happen. And it's in the movie, and it's an amazing shot. And it's-- he was so in sync with me. He was really watching, and when I knew a couple of the main actors and blaze our musicians, I wanted the music to be authentic in the movie, and I have a lot of confidence about acting. And I was like, you know, I'll work with these wonderful musicians that I know, and I'll get the performance there. But I knew I really needed Steve, because he really brings down the self-consciousness on set. You get the sense the camera loves you. And sometimes I go on people's sets, and I feel like the camera hates me. And you want to hide from it, and you want to protect yourself. People get-- if you turn left, when the DP wanted you to turn right, they're so pissed off, and then all of a sudden, you feel like you've cemented your shoes and blueberries all over your face or something. And because self-consciousness for the actor is the big enemy. You know, one of the things that I struggle with a lot of times is matching and script supervision, and sometimes that's helpful, because I know if I don't put the cup down, we can't cut on it. But it's taken me 30 years to actually be able to live and breathe in front of the camera. And if all I'm thinking about is placing that damn cup down on that line. Because who knows whether we're going to be on that shelf? There's a lot of places to be able to do it. I mean, it's like, it's OK. Let it live. Let it live. And I've watched so many directors think it take is bad, because he didn't set the cup down on the right line. And you're like, ah! You don't understand. It was a magic, which just happened. And you're worried about the duplicated cup. Yeah, the performance will always supersede physical continuity, because if the performance is bad, but the cup's in the right place, what's the point? Joe once said the continuity is for sissy. Sorry, but I've heard that for so many times. I've heard Scorsese says it a lot tougher than that. Oh, well, well, I would say it tougher than that. So how did you come to-- how did you come to direct Blaze? You co-wrote it as well. What tell us about the project? What drew you to it? And it was very strange. I was doing moddy. And you know, I was alone a lot. You know, it was in the middle of nowhere and staying in some weird hotel and alone for weeks. And I discovered Blaze Foley's outhouse tapes, which is a recording that he did. And it got into my dreams. I couldn't stop listening to it. And I think because of the subject matter of moddy about outsider art, and I was reaching a place in my life where, oh, success and failure start to be such silly words and start to have less meaning. And I was like, listen to this Blaze Foley. I don't think this is the most authentic music I've heard. There's so much soul inside this music. Same way I feel about moddy's paintings. And I told my wife, I was like, I want to make a movie about Blaze Foley. Every biopic you ever see is always about somebody who's famous. And so invariably, the biopic has all these cliché tropes about the rise to stardom and the drug addiction and the recovery of all these boring tropes. I'm like, wouldn't it be fun to make a biopic about somebody you've never heard of? And I had it in the back of my head. Just it was just looming there like a dream. And I had a really good friend of mine who was, is a musician. And he was really struggling. And he was working in a kitchen. And we had a New Year's Eve party and I was asking about his music career. And he was like, don't you understand my music career is over. 38 years old and it hasn't happened. And I'm a chef, you know. And I said, oh, remember Blaze Foley. And he was about two in the morning and he picked up my guitar and he started playing a Blaze Foley song. And then boom, I'm looking at him. The fire is dying out and I'm looking at him. And he's six, four from Arkansas. He's a big boy. And I said to him, you should play Blaze Foley in a movie. And I got the chills down my spine because it was like a-- I was like, oh, you're supposed to do that. This job falls to you. I felt it really clearly that what I was seeing was special. This friend of mine and his relationship to music and that a lot of people out there might enjoy getting to know Blaze better. And I'm from Austin. I know that world. I grew up fantasizing about Austin in the '70s and '80s. And it's right in my wheelhouse. And so I told Banda I said, I'm going to raise the money. I'm going to make a movie about Blaze Foley. You start taking acting classes. He's like, all right. And I told my wife's my producing partner. And I told her about this. And she just said, you know what? Let's just do that. And we started-- boyhood had just come out. And we had a little extra money, a little bit, where she said, why don't we just-- let's make-- you always hear people do. Let's make $100,000 movie. Let's just shoot. It's starting like, she loves me and believes in me. And she's like, you know what? Let's film the outhouse concert. And I was like, what's a cool idea? Let's start with that. We start with that. And then I thought, well, what if I intercut it with him in the treehouse? And a treehouse is inexpensive to shoot in, right? I can build a treehouse anywhere. I'll film that, too. And then turned into, well, once we had this little bit of money, it was one of those low-sufficient situation. Well, then somebody else pitched in. And then we had that, then somebody else pitched in. And before you know what, we had a modest budget. And then I started, we're reworking the script. And I started working with the actors. And you know, the great thing about his world, it was nothing cost much money. I just had to find weird dive bars and highways. And so we went out to the middle of Louisiana, which still looks like the '80s, right? I mean, it's all set back in time a little bit. And we made the movie on duct tape and love. But I kind of, I'd grown up dreaming hearing about Dennis Hopper making his gonzo movies and, you know, when it's easy ride or whatever. Let's just, let's just do it. And it was fun. I carried my own camera bags and, you know, we carried the lenses. And I needed that kind of experience. I just, Link Letter gave me this advice. He's like, you just have to pretend every day when you wake up. Tell yourself you're 23. He's like, ah, this is good to remember. Just get super humble. You know, don't be grouchy that you don't have craft service. Be amazed that anyone showed up. Don't be grouchy that the makeup budget is too much. Be amazed that anybody's doing the makeup. Like, just change your framework. He's like, just wake up and say, I'm 23 years old. I've got my life ahead of me. I'm going to go make a movie. And if you do it, and that felt right for that movie. How did you get the cast? Well, I mean, I think it was such a wonderful cast. Oh, the character. It's a Charlie Sex, actually. I got to admit, Townsman's son is my hero. I mean, I think he's the greatest musician, but none. Me too, Bob Dylan. But anyway, was I really? Did you know his music before the place then? I mean, that's, yeah, yeah. Townsman's the only reason I know who plays Foley is. You know, I mean, as you fall in love with, first you fall in love with Willie Nelson. And then somebody says to you, you know who the real deal is, it's Townsman saying, yeah, yeah. Then you start listening to Townsman's Aunt. And then people say to me, you know what his spirit guide was, was this guide blaze Foley. And I had met Charlie Sex. No, Charlie Sex didn't, was had a small part in boyhood. And we'd had some, we'd had some wonderful conversations about acting and music. And I knew that, you know, Charlie's from Austin. And I knew that Charlie had known Towns. And so I knew I just didn't, Towns is so authentic that I needed a great performance. Like I didn't want to, I didn't want to see any acting, you know? And I asked Charlie, do you think you could play it? And he's like, well, I'm not sure he really wanted to, but he didn't want anyone else to either, you know? And so he had known Towns. And so he, he brought so much to the whole movie, the whole characterization. He helped me with the writing. He was phenomenal. It's just wonderful, wonderful moment at the end when he's singing Marie. And then the other guy says, where the fuck did that come from? And it's just like, wow. Because I was one, I listened to that. I go, why, how did anybody write that song? And that was so a wonderful moment. But I want to ask you again, back to the look of it. And the, how did you go about shooting it? I mean, it's got a wonderful sort of texture. It looks finitated. It looks like without being too self-conscious. It looks like you're going back in time to this. Yeah, we had this, you know, so you take a gamble when you do these things. You have an idea in this. Yeah. Steve said to me, he's like, there's something so unpretentious about Blaze Foley and Tans Van Sam. They're just, they're without pretence. He's like, what if we never change the lens size? What if, what if we just pick a lens and we just shoot it? And he said a couple of things to me. He's like, I don't want to ever mention another movie, another shot. He's like, I want to just talk about these people and what it feels like and what it smells like. And let's, I don't want to sit with the crew and watch Badlands. I don't want to sit and talk about this great movie, or that great movie. He's like, I want it. He was like, you were a little kid when all this was happening. He's like, what does it feel like in your memory? Like describe to me what it looks like in your memory. You know what I was like? Well, it's dusty and it's yellow. And the reds blur into the yellows, and we found these amazing-- my mother, she doesn't anymore, but she was living in Romania. She works for Gypsy Rites, so she's a really interesting woman. And I've met some filmmakers from Romania through her. She's been there for 25 years or whatever. And so sometimes I go over there and I'll meet people and I met this Romanian director who said, hey, I've got a box full of 1980 Canon lenses that have never been used. He's like, they're communist lenses. And I've never known what to do them. He's like, they might be perfect for your movie. And so he shipped us this box of lenses. And I showed him to Steve, and he just about freaked out. And he's like, we're shooting the whole movie on this lens. Because it had all this weird warp and texture to it. It has all these kind of natural mistakes that made it kind of vignetti like you're talking about. And if we didn't change lenses, we wouldn't draw attention to ourselves about what the camera was doing. And there's something improvisational and messy about blaze. And so we wanted it to feel sweaty and like it. I kept calling it. It needs to be-- it's like watching the movie should be the feeling of having a little hit a pot and listening to a great double album. It's like a country-western opera. I was like, it's just one thing flows into the next. And it doesn't need to make exact sense. I remember when I was young, and I would listen to the red-headed stranger. And it's not like every song relates to the other one. But it's just to feel like an opera, it's this western. You start to imagine that this character is from this point of view. And I kept saying, I wanted to feel like when I listened to the red-headed stranger. There's not too much instrumentation and nothing's overdub, nothing's-- we recorded all the music live. We let there be sounds of birds and pool balls and beer spilling in the background. We just lived with it all. And I think that relationship to the camera really helped the actors feel like they were free to be weird and specific. I mean, did they improvise a lot? I never feel improvisation works when the cameras are rolling. But what I would do is we would hang out a lot together a couple of weeks before while we're shooting. I would let them improvise and rehearsal. Like, all right, try this. When you do this, what's it like if you do that? And then we go, oh, that's actually great. What do you tell that joke? Tell that joke on camera, you know? And so it wasn't improvised like we had no idea what was going to happen. We knew what was going to happen. But the actors were allowed a lot of leeway. Well, it's quite a remarkable piece of filmmaking, I think I'll say. And then you sort of took that and did Wildcat more recently than you talk about that? Well, Wildcat, for me, was a whole different animal. It's a form meets content. Flannery O'Connor is so disciplined and so precise and so devout. I mean, I don't know what the word is that's opposite of messy, you know? But she was succinct. She was clean. She was precise. And I knew that the movie-- I wanted it to be a fever dream. And I wanted-- like, the movie's basically a question mark, right? It's human creativity and active worship, you know? And so I wanted it to be a fever dream that leads-- it's all got to kind of lead you to the last shot. I said, in the perfect world, this is a movie you rethink the second the credits role. I love those. Paul Schrader has a line about this. Like, one of his favorite movies are the ones that start when the end credits role. It's like, you go like, wait, what just happened? And one of the cookus nest is kind of a great example of that. Like, when the chief throws the sink through the window and then he runs out in the field, the drum start like, right, this whole movie was from his point of view. And you start absorbing the story in a different way. Anyway, the point is that that Wildcat was extremely difficult. And the 50s is much harder to shoot than the 80s, as far as when you don't have much money. It's really, really challenging. And I knew I had this-- the DP and I had a really difficult mathematical problem to solve, which is that the thesis statement of the movie is basically that imagination is real. And that what we think and what we feel and experience in our inner life is a part of reality. It affects our every movement and our every relationship and all the inner dynamics that happen in our life, sometimes years later, but it's all this continuity that starts within. And I knew that if I made her-- the movie explodes into her imagination a lot, and if I made her imagination too different from reality, I would screw up what I'm trying to say with the movie. And if I didn't make it different enough, I would really lose more people than I wanted to, because the whole idea of double casting, you know, Maya and Laura are playing aspects of themselves as kind of figures in the imagination, and that's all very dangerous. And so we kind of came up with this idea of being really subtle, which is that the real life is shot as simply and austerely and elegantly as possible, you know, as little editing and as little coverage as possible, and then in the color palette would be muted, you know, there wouldn't be any reds, yellows, and then so when we got to the imagination, we would have reds and yellows, and the camera could move, you know, that if the camera moved in real life, it was on a dolly, it was graceful and elegant, and if it moved in the dreams, it had more ragged, and so our hope was that subtly-- it's a wonderful thing about if you're confused it's bad, if it's mysterious it's good, you know, if it's-- and we wanted the essential word to her in her own writing was mystery, that there's this great mystery to the universe that we're all not talking about, like we're all acting like what we do today matters, and we're all not on a star, hurtling through space, heated by a flaming other star, and where everybody we know it's a perfect equation, everything that's born dies, it's a one-to-one relationship. Thank you, I'm glad we have in this conversation. Well, this is really important to her, and that there's this great mystery of what are we doing, you know, and that the work needs to invite that conversation if you're going to be talking about her, and so I wanted it to be mysterious and sly, and so we kind of came up with this way of attacking it, it's definitely the most difficult thing I've ever tried to do, and she's a very, you know, her levels of aspirations for excellence and what she wanted from her own creativity was so demanding, and so it asks a lot of us as filmmakers, and you know, she's not, it's easier when you're making a portrait of an artist, and the artist is extremely likable, but when they live in the Jim Crow South, and they're not very nice to anybody, and they don't really like anybody, and they're dying. Exactly. It's a difficult character, but I found her hypnotic, and I wanted to make a movie about her. How much, how much sort of changed in the edit? I mean, when you started directing, you also had power over the cut. I mean, what did you learn, and how much changed in the films the way you finished them after the first concept? I would say the blaze has made, you know, the script was really written in the editing room. You know, that one, like I had, I had plans of what I was going to do, but I didn't really have a script for blaze, you know, I even tried, eventually I, because I confused everybody, but I tried to write blaze as a short story, you know, I didn't want it to be in final draft. I didn't, I wanted you to, I wanted everybody to think about it differently. So a lot of the actors, they just got a little 40 page short story about he's going to say this is going to be in a bar, this is going to be happening, this is like I didn't, I didn't want to, I didn't want it to read like a proper movie, because I didn't want it to be a proper movie with, with Wildcat, it's meticulously written mostly because of what I was just telling you about, of how I knew, I wasn't going to find this movie in the edit. That's not what she would like. I needed, I spent a lot of time with the script, I gave the script to the editor, but before we started shooting, and I, I was like, what, you know, okay, let's, imagine, ever this whole script shot perfectly, we both know this script shot perfectly is probably two hours and 17 minutes. What are the 25 minutes it's going to have to go? Because I just, this was, I thought blaze could be long, because he's long-winded, he's the guy you talked to at the bar, he talks too long, it's like, it felt spiritually right. The flanery is succinct, you know, she's succinct woman, I was like, this movie's got to be, it's got to be a buck 45, it's got to be well under two hours, you know, it's got to, and so I was like, well, what, what's the first 20 minutes I'm going to cut out of this? And we just sat and poured over the script and like, all right, well, what about this, what about that? And then like, would rewrite the script and then I would work with the DP on the script and like, how are we going to go from this transition to that transition and is that going to work? And then he would have ideas and then I would work with Maya and Laura on the script and they would say, and it was kind of like running a race, you know, you had to be careful to have your hair cut just short enough so that the wind drag was less and I needed. And how long was that shoot? Like 27 days, something like that, 26, good, yeah, it was hard, yeah. So Tim Robbins once said to us after he would start directing that when he went back as an actor. Because we asked him, what did you learn? What did he learn? What did you bring back with you? He said, never to be late on set. What? He never was again. But he never was in the first place, not that when I work with the menu, but so tell us, what do you take from directing back to acting? You know, because I started young when I was really coming up, I really imbued the director with a tremendous amount of power. I really thought directing, oh, yeah, that's the guy who's really capped into the ship and that's the most important job. My respect for acting just skyrocketed after directing, you know, I was like, I would plan all, I'm talking about the whole plan of the aesthetic orientation of the movie in this shot, and if my lawyer can't sell that shot, and it doesn't matter how well planned it is. If there's not a living three-dimensional human being in that shot, if you don't believe that person, I mean, oftentimes a really great idea we had would be sabotaged by a lot of what I wanted to do required a level of acting that if we had small parts and things like that that they couldn't pull off. And I wanted this whole scene to be in one shot and it didn't work. You know, and working with somebody like Laura, she completely understands what I was trying to go for, and she could help me. You know, she would help me. Oh, what if I'm back here and then I'll move forward and right when the shot's kind of dying a little bit, I'll step forward and like, yes, yes, yes, do that. Not me and so the thing I really took away was knowing how much, so much preparation goes into making a movie that when actors are late and they don't have ideas and they haven't put forth their passion and bring their blood and their life and their love to set, it's so disappointing because the crew feels it and it's all for naught. You know, Tom Stopper said this to me once and I meant a lot to me. He's like, you know, actors are the tip of the spear. If you're blunt, none of it matters, you know, it just doesn't matter. All these fun things to talk about are the costumes or reflecting peacocks or all these other stuff that we're doing. If the acting isn't good, all that stuff is just indulgent. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. That's true. Do you feel that you're being an actor helped you directing actors? It helped me. Yeah, definitely, particularly when I was starting because that was my whole orientation. The fun of Wildcat for me was, I just spent the pandemic editing. I've done this six hour documentary that basically is an editorial, I mean, I filmed a couple Zoom calls for the damn thing, you know, it was all told with the juxtaposition of images. I mean, the combination of working on blaze where we did, I did a lot of editing and meaning a lot of the writing, what we were trying to say with the movie was finished in the edit. And then I spent two years working with Barry Poulterman on cutting the Newman doc and that was kind of like where I put my 10,000 hours into editing. I had, I'd come at the set as an actor. I wanted the DP and the sound guy, everybody to help the actor, damn it. All you guys have not been helping me my whole life and now everybody's going to help the actors. And now I went in thinking about editing and the power of the way that how I learned from all these things, how you can change what people feel, it's the same images, it's the same performance, it's the same, it's just, you know, it's so, it's insane, but like I remember if you put a joke in the wrong spot in the movie, the joke is not funny. And if you put it in the right spot, it's hysterical and it's the same damn joke. It's just what, it's just what mood are you in when you hear it, you know? And so, and, you know, we all know this, I've made movies before that I thought were ruined in the edit, you know, I've, I've, I've, yeah, it's so disappointing, you're like you didn't use that shot, are you insane? You mean you let people, I mean, I always, I would tell our editor, I was like, we've got to put the best work that we did in the finished film, it's like a sporting event or something, like your best players have to be on the field to win, you know, and so we got to keep turning this Rubik's cube until that shot is in the movie, because that shot is worth the price of admission. And I don't care if it's a, let's figure out a way that it does help the story, you know, don't tell me it doesn't match when she spills the coffee, that shots, when she spills the coffee is in the movie, now let's figure out how to make it work, you know, so that was my big takeaway this time was just really using editorial. Yeah, another thing too is sometimes you're on a set and the director hasn't thought about it editorially, so you're just shooting everything. And it seems to me that if, if you've thought about what it is, you're going to cut and how you're going to do it, then you're focusing on the shots that, no, you don't agree. I just a thousand percent agree, and I think it's so helpful to the actors and things like you and I were joking about matching and things like that. If I know that, and this, and Sidney Lamette was this way, he was like, the first page and a half of this scene plays in the master, so it doesn't matter when you put your, you don't have to match anything until she says X, and when she says X, that's when I'm cutting. And then you're watching, and you make sure that first page and the half is freaking great to that point. And then you move on. And then the actor was so great for the actors, if they want to spill the coffee or something in that page and a half, everything's pretty because we're never going to cut on that. It's not the way it's going to work. And go on. It's just a spiriting too to be doing coverage after coverage and giving it your all knowing that all of it can't be in there, so really where is our focus? So the other thing is what about multiple cameras? I mean, we were talking about the framing, you were talking about how important is to know your relationship to the frame as a character. What about multiple cameras when you're? Multiple cameras can be great in everything, but I love, I don't know if you still stand inspired, but one of the things Link Letter said to me when we were young about multiple cameras, he's like, it's so hard to get one good shot. He's like, you really think you're going to get two at the same time? He's like, I got to be a crazy hurry to want to waste that because he's like, what happens is both shots end up compromised and people love this idea that, you know, oh, if you do two cameras on the actors, they can improvise a little bit. It's like, just act it well, you know, just be a good actor, make it seem like, you know, people always say to Julie Delpie and I, the before chill that she's improvised, it's not the most well rehearsed thing I've ever done in my life. And we worked, that's why we get paid is to make it seem like we'd never set it before. You know, I mean, sometimes don't you go see Paul McCartney sing Blackbird or something, you think, he's played it like he frickin' loves that song and he does and he's never played it on this day for this group of people and he does love and you have to, as a performer, you have to communicate that love and they only need two cameras, I'll do it again, it's fun. You know, but that said, there's some directors they just love shooting two cameras at one time and you know, whatever, what are you going to say? It's not much. I just, last thing I've got to ask you, is it kind of fun when you do something like Stockholm? It feels like your cast totally against type, if you like. That's the fun of, the hard thing about a life as an actor to really, you just have to keep pushing yourself to expand your comfort zone, you know, just a little bit, just keep expanding it, keep expanding it, you know, that's part of why I like, oh, do in a western or do in a horror movie or do in something Stockholm, you know, nobody ever asked me to do a comedy, you know, and I always wanted to, dammit, and so it's, and I think if you're going to have a long career, you have to keep making sure that you're nervous to go to work. Like, how am I going to do this? Yeah, I mean, that so easily could have been goofy in the way that, you know, you would stop paying attention to it, but it was really great. And we've worked with Mark too, Mark, so good, I mean, we really enjoyed it. We had never seen it before, yeah, so do you, are you going to continue directing as well as acting? You know, acting for me is my first love. And if I could spend my life acting with good directors and good material, I wouldn't. I don't need to do anything else. But if you start being too much of a professional, you know, and actors are only as good as their opportunities, and I love to work, I love to be of use in the world, I want to get up in the morning and have somewhere I'm supposed to be, I really, I do my, my wife wants me to do it too, you know, it's like I'm just much better if I know that I'm a value somewhere, you know, and I would much rather, if I'm not going to have a good opportunity, I'd rather try to create a good opportunity for someone else, right? And what I found with writing and directing is it gives me things to work on so that I can be more discerning in my performing life, you know, I, it gives me, and it keeps me curious, you know, it was really interesting directing my, um, and directing a 24 year old and feeling their passion and feeling all their questions. She asked some questions I hadn't thought about in a long time and, um, sometimes I didn't have the right answer and, and I loved the juice that she had that she was coming at the work with and it made, I remember when we finished Wildcat, I was like, I cannot wait to act again, you know, it just, I want to jump in the pool with everybody else. I really would much rather sit at home and write than act in a bad film and not do a good job, like I, I just, I've grown to despise when I can't do work at the level that I want to do it at. And I see why some older people turn into grouches because I get, I get really impatient now with people doing it the wrong way and it just, because it, it's not an opinion, I know it's wrong. You know, they say, well, that's your opinion, like, no, it's, it's not my opinion. This is actually a mistake what you're doing. This scene is not covered, right? And like, there's a difference between opinion and just badly done work, right? And I don't mind making things that don't please an audience as long as we did our best to try to achieve what we set out to do, you know, and I often feel when people see the finished work, they, the reason why some people like one film better than others, they like that idea better. They're more interested in that subject matter. And that's what you've got to try to do. You've got to try to do your work well enough that somebody who thinks this is a good idea likes this movie. The people who don't think, like, I did this, Brecht play once that a lot of people really hated it. And I warned everybody before we started, this play is famously low. I mean, if you do this play right, this, this play is designed for the audience to be pissed. They saw it 10 years after they saw it. That's the, so it's like, if you're doing this one before people love you or when prizes, it ain't going to happen. This is the design here is to be punk, and, but I find that kind of liberating and freedom. So I don't mean like, not everything you do has to be successful or something like that, but it has to, what you're driving at as a collective community of artists, we have to be going for it wholeheartedly. And then, and then I get excited, but, you know, we all, it's so fun to work with a master film director, you know, it's just, it's so, so fun to feel of service and of use. And it's all I've ever really wanted to do with my life. Unfortunately, the opportunities, they're not always there, you know, so you have to do other things. And my mom used to say, I'll close with this on that. My mom used to say, it's a, oh, it's a famous shaker expression, which is that to master one art form, you need to apprentice three. And I've always felt like, you know, what I'm really studying my whole life is acting, but to do that well, I have to understand the other jobs that interact with it. Wow. That's good. That's really good. Great. Well, that is a lovely way. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's been really wonderful talking to you. Yeah. Very, very interesting. Oh, I feel I'm so grateful for your attention and your care and your interest. It's, it's really flattering and I, I hope we all get to see each other soon. Yeah. I hope, and I hope you do a film on Townsvansan. Yeah. I know. I'm saying it was really, it was, I love Charlie Sexton's performance so much. I started, my mind, I started writing the last days of Townsvansan, because that would be a good movie too. Yeah. That would be amazing. It would be amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. If you'd like to sponsor the Team Deacon's podcast, let us know at pod@teamdeacon's.com. Thanks for listening. If you want more information and further discussion, check out the forums at www.rodjordekens.com. Becoming a member is free and you can ask follow-up questions there. And be sure to subscribe to the podcast for more new questions and topics. Also, check us out on Instagram at team.deacon's. See you next time. Bye.