Essential Food Preserving with Dr. Julia Skinner

(upbeat music) - Hello, fellow foodies and welcome back. We'll stay into foodie pharmacology, the science podcast for the food. Curious, we've got one of my all time favorite guests back on the show this week. We have Dr. Julius Skinner. She's a food writer whose work includes the award-winning book, Our fermented Lives and the fermentation oracle. She has a PhD in library and information science and she balances her time between Atlanta, Georgia and Cork Island, Ireland, which I'm very jealous of, to be able to be at work. It's probably super beautiful there right now. But today I'm so excited to talk about for newest book Essential Preserving, which is going to be published by Story Publishing This May, May of 2026. She's also the founder of the Culinary Curiosity School and also runs Roots, which is a food focused community and consulting organization that offers classes, consulting on creative projects, a weekly newsletter and more. So thanks so much for coming on this show, Julia. I love your books and I'm really excited about this latest one that you've got out. - Well, thank you so much for having me. It's great to be back. - So I got to know you through your incredible coursework that you offered on fermentation. I'm such a food fermentation fan and I've lately gotten more into other forms of food preservation, which is kind of so excited about this book because what am I new? I kind of think of it as like creative art form in the kitchen, it's the way I relax, right? But it's also a way I can help feed my very, very hungry teenagers and stuff, but my youngest side, who just turned 13 is crazy about beef jerky. So we have been pulling out the dehydrator and like trying slams with beef and lots of fruit things that we pick up in Florida. So tell me about some of the different ways that you cover all the different ways that we can preserve food in this book 'cause you go beyond fermentation and dehydration. - Yeah, I'm writing this book was interesting because I had to really stretch. I had never made beef jerky before, for example. And I was like, okay, I have to learn how to do that and make like all these other things, which is great because I got to expand my own practice. But it covers drying canning, so hot water bath and pressure canning, fermenting. It covers a little bit of smoking meat. I don't really go super into that, but it mentions it. Yeah, all the kinds of preserving we do. It's, yeah, it's a comprehensive. It took a long time to write. - For now. And yeah, there's a lot of information about how to really stock out your piano free using these different methods. I know that you've also been really passionate about reducing food waste. And maybe we can start there as like a discussion point. How can you use different food preservation strategies to reduce food waste, especially for any of the listeners who might be home gardeners or have a fruit tree? I can hope in every, we're all getting a bounty of fruit. But then I'm always worried, what do I do with all this food? It's, it's a lot of food for. - Yeah, so I mean, gosh, there's so many ways that preserving food. I mean, one of its biggest benefits to us historically was making it so we could extend the harvest and have that food security for the whole year. And so the way the book is organized, I really like it because a lot of other preserving books are organized by topic. And this one covers, it's organized by ingredients. So if you're like, I have a ton of carrots, you just open it to the carrot pages. And there you go, there's all the things you can do here. - Or carrots. - Hit friends. - Yeah, but it's nice because it's, each ingredient offers us different ways to think about preserving it. And so carrots, for example, you can take the tops and have a separate, you know, prude out of those. You can use them like parsley. You can, you know, put them in stocks or whatever and reduce waste that way. But yeah, preserving helps with food waste not only because we're putting up the harvest for later, but we're able to repurpose scraps like carrot peels and things. Those can become jam or can be, you know, dehydrated into little snacks or something. - Oh, that's such a very idea. I loved, yeah, we were sort of think that I really liked in the book. I mean, there's a lot to like about a book, but one of the things I really appreciated was when you make your fermented pickles that you can also make, like, I think you called it pickle powder, basically from the ferment leftovers after eating the jar of pickles which don't last very long again in my house. (laughs) Oh, good. What about like, what that's like? So yeah, how do you use that? - The sauce. - Yeah, so what I do, what will make it vinegar? So that could be like something like fire cider or if I have, there's the stems from herbs. Like if I make, let's say something with thyme and I've got a bunch of thyme stems, I put those in vinegar, let it infuse for a few weeks. Then I have a flavored vinegar. That makes a really good gift. Like half the gifts I give people are just like, things I made out of foods. So like, like, like, where? But then you can take that thyme out, dehydrate it, grind it up and then yeah, you just use it like a seasoning. And so a little bit of tartness and some of the ferment flavors as well as the flavor of the original ingredient. - That's amazing. And when we think about fruit, well, let me think, I don't know, I'm thinking berries, blackberries, strawberries, these kind of things. - Naked jams, of course. Like I grew up making jams at home. I love doing that stall. My, my, is it a major lover of jams in jelly. (laughing) It didn't make them like our grocery bowl would be very, very high for those items. And we like, you're simple to make, it's a heart. But you also showed in the book ways that you can also make things like fruit leathers. You tell us a bit more about like, what are all the different ways you can, and even why, like homemade wine? - Absolutely. - What are some different examples of like berry recipes that you've had? - Yeah. - Oh gosh, berries are great. And this time of year, I mean, it's perfect to really get into that. You can make, so yeah, jam, fruit leather, which is just like basically make a paste, spread it out on a silk hat, stick it in a dehydrator. Congratulations, you're a fruit leather. (laughing) Super easy. (laughing) And you can, you know, you can sweeten it or not. I never sweeten it, but you can, if you have really tart fruit. Yeah, you can make homemade wine, you can make fruit sodas, which just, yeah, you just ferment it for a shorter time and carbonate it. You can infuse vinegars, you can make lecours, like you can just stick them in like in some vodka and other neutral spirit or like whiskey or whatever. I mean, whatever you want. - And make, you know, like berry, like a berry lecour. You can make shrubs if you don't drink alcohol. Those are really good and super easy. - With your mixture? - Serums. - Right, shrubs are easier, okay. - Yeah, so it's just infuse vinegar and then you sweeten it afterwards. And yeah, what else can you make? You can make syrups, yeah, you can like dry them, you can obviously freeze them and just put them in stuff throughout the year. That was one thing, you know, for a food preserving book, it's funny, I do so much food preserving and I had never really thought about talking about freezing in any of my other books because I was like, well, like everybody knows how to use a freezer, but like, no, there's a right way to preserve things at the freezer, otherwise they get freezer burned. - No, that's just a good point. - Yeah, so I can imagine this didn't involve a lot of research and different things. I guess what question I have is, you know, now that everything is so, I don't know, accessible, you know, everything is prepackaged, prepared, like a lot of these traditions have been lost. Why is it, why do you feel like it's important to learn these skills today? - Well, I think, you know, I think it's especially timely right now because people are very worried about our food supply chains and food supply costs because it helps food security in a very real way. This is a way that you take back some of your control over your food security and that's important. But also, you know, knowing these techniques brings you closer to the food itself and to understanding how it's prepared and it's also a really good way to connect with the people who grow the food and with the plants and with the whole system that is our food system. And it feels like a great sign of respect, you know, I think, to the hands that grow my food and harvest my food for me to try to use it to its fullest potential. - Yeah, you know, I agree. It's nice, especially, yeah, when you're working with locally grown foods and have that chance to connect things together and I know you've written a lot about fermentation as an agent of-- community building. And there's many ways of ferment things, not just alcoholic products, but also lots of lots of lots of different fermented fresh. A lot of it probably relies on their fermented, but maybe tell us a bit about that. Like, how do you see community building through fermentation? Yeah. So was fermentation and with some other food preserving practices, too, I mean, a lot of times you're coming together with people to make this food, kind of this many hands make light work sort of thing. We have examples around the world of people coming together and making big, big batches of food together. And so we're building community by actually spending that time, you know, doing a meaningful activity together. But then we're feeding our community later, literally, because we have the food itself. And so we're investing in the community a few different ways. I also really like doing this, especially with fermentation because it's so affordable, it doesn't require special equipment. I mean, it can, but traditional fermenting, like if I'm making sourcrout, I can just, you know, take this jar that, you know, I'm drinking water out of right now, but I can just fill it with cabbage and some salt and like, there you go. And I love that because that makes it so more of the community is able to access that skill. And I can teach it to people without them having to go out and buy a bunch of stuff or, you know, do a bunch of, yeah, a bunch of extra work. It's very, it's very approachable. That's amazing. Yeah, I let, I love the example of sourcrout would make each of my food class be trained to a demo and class. And it's, it's just so ridiculously simple. You just dice it up, you know, the cabbage and rub it in some salt. You know, you have, you know, sourcrout at 30 days, it's really magical. And I think students understand how accessible it is. And I do see what you need about community building. I mean, you know, one of the things that my, my, my in-laws do, they're from Italy. And so they grow tomatoes and the whole family, you know, mom and daughters and, you know, grandkids and everybody comes together and they make tomato sauce. Nice. You're cooking these big pots of tomatoes. And there's different people have different jobs, different stations. You know, this person's kind of getting the bottles clean is wiping them and then pouring in the sauce and you add the basil. And the next person's like wiping that and sealing it out and doing the, the water bath. All these different, it's kind of an assembly line. And it's a big thing. Okay. And then we kind of have a little bit of like, you know, food enjoyment during the day as well, you gray out the slice cured sausages they made in the fall. And you bring out, you know, all these different things and cheeses and local bread. And it's just brings so much joy to the process of, yeah, of sharing in this. And then everybody divides up, you know, whatever needs to press for the year. He's that it. It's made, you know, it's great. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I, we have community like canning spaces in some communities like, sometimes like churches will have like a big, you know, space where people come together and you can like rent out the church kitchen for the day or something. Or some government buildings do. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. Yeah. Because my kitchen is not big enough to have like an assembly line. I feel like it's, it's pretty much just big enough for me. Outside. It's like all outside, like probing, turning right. It's just, yeah, it's this whole. And I've also like, I would say it's more participant observation. But like also, I've been there when they've done preparing the, the, the, the after a peg is, you know, harvested and then butchered and ground up and made into sausage and mixed with all the chili peppers and then having the key scenes filled. And all these sausages made and hung. And then that is also distributed across the family. But ready, it's, it's such a beautiful way of sharing in this like great tradition. And it's, it's kind of sad to me that those are, that we're starting to lose those things. And, yeah. Well, one of my last memories of my dad before a pav's does he, he had the grandkids, we all came and helped him harvest the shiver cane in Florida. And we scrolls out the juice and he had this big like outdoor, I don't know, it's like a cauldron is the best way to explain it like where we're boiling and bubbling all this shiver cane juice and we get thick into molasses and then taking off the top of the foam. And then we can that. So I know this, I still have some jars of the last batch of molasses I made with my dad. And I've talked to people like have made like Kim Chi with your moms or have some core keen green experience. It's just you're holding on to that last jar, you know, yeah. It's such an incredible moment to remember something you did together. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have a jar actually of hot sauce, my best friend passed away in 2020 and we made this hot sauce together. And I still have it and it's fermented. So it's like in a very real way. It's like, yeah, this friend is still alive because yeah. Because it's a living food that they put their touch on. Yeah. That's incredible. Well, as you are working through this, you know, what are for the novice to the preservation, you know, what what wouldn't you advise to folks are maybe or maybe they're not a novice to all forms of preservation that maybe they've never canned something together. And I remember being kind of, you know, scared and middle school they're telling all the bachelors in mornings like, don't open this. So I'm like, oh, I'm worried about bachelors. I'm gonna like, of course, if you do it properly, when you're gaining more risk of that happening. But when someone's kind of getting into this for the first time, are there are there certain forms of food preservation, you think are better, better entry ways into the craft? Yeah, I mean, I think starting with easy stuff and then building your confidence like, I pressure can now, but I was terrified of it for years. And I'm like, still scared of my pressure can, or I just know how to use it. But it's like, it's, you know, it's a pretty heavy duty tool. So I would not start there. What I would start with would be hot water bath canning, like just like simple like quick pickles, like vinegar-based pickles, something really easy, something that, you know, there's vinegar and salt in there. So like, as long as like, it's, it's not going to grow bachelors because it's full of nectar and salt. That's a really good place to start with canning with other preserving. I mean, you can literally just take like handfuls of fresh herbs and like tie them up in bundles and hang them up to draw. You don't even need to use a dehydrator unless you want to. That's what I do, it's so easy. And it like, your house looks like this really cool, which is cottage, you can't tell these things hanging everywhere. All around. Yeah, I do. Yeah, I always have them hanging up like, you know, in some areas of the house, just to add to the aesthetic. And fermenting too, you know, making something really simple, like, you can just make a brine with like a tablespoon of salt mixed in a quart of water and whisked up room temperature water. Pours that over, you know, some carrot sticks, just raw carrots. Let it ferment for a few days. There you go. Like, that's a really good entry point. Oh my gosh. I love it. I love, I love when you can use like what would otherwise be discarded. And I'm, I'm blanking on the name of this beverage. It's a Mexican beverage where you basically take the skin of the pineapple. And oh, yeah. Like, it's like the name of it. But yeah, you just add water, a little bit of sugar and these pineapple, you know, and the core of the pineapple and just let it go through. It's so good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, tapache. Yeah, tapache. And it also tastes very nice with a little bit of scowl to like round it out. So delicious. And kind of tart. But yeah, it's, it's great to see how, you know, you can, you can use all parts of the food, you know, and you're writing after that. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, tapache is such a good example of like a, like, a food waste product that became like its own, like, hip on the life of its own. And like, I've talked to different people from different places who are like, oh, like, we don't put any spices in or like, oh, we put in all spiced or like, like, different, different people do so many different things with it too. I really like putting in a little bit of cinnamon, like a cinnamon. Yeah, well, I like to add the cinnamon as well. It's, it's so cool. And you kind of have this, I have like a large, you know, it's a, it's, it's one of the larger, just mason jars. And it was a big one. Yeah, bigger things, you know, I ferment bigger things. I love to get the questions of people come in the house. Like, what's that? Let's bubbly, you know, can you think of the present? Yeah, it's very good. Yeah, I have a whole shelf that's like the size of this cabinet behind me that's like just jars of things. And yeah, people come over and like, I have friends who will like come over and like the first place they go is to go and look at the shelf and see, like, what's up there right now? Nigeria cabinet. Yeah, I love it. I love it. That's so great. Well, in addition to your, to your latest book, which I definitely encourage folks like grab one few orders are now open. and it is fantastic. So many great recipes. I definitely played on trying many of them. I think I'm going to try, I've never made fruit lender before. I think that's what I'm going to try. Like I'm going to start there. That looks really, really nice. Yeah. I have a feeling it won't last long in the house because the kids are always snacking. Yeah. You know, it's not like a corn corn syrup laden fruit roll up. It's not really fruit. It's actual fruit. That's great to have helping. Yeah. It's actually available. Yeah. But you also teach through the culinary curiosity school. And I saw we actually have a special offer. Is that right for for us on that? Yeah. Tell us a very school. Yeah. Yeah. So I founded my culinary school, um, about a year and a half ago. Um, I, I noticed that there were not a lot of online culinary education spaces that went beyond just like skill building, which is great. Like obviously you're taking a class because you want to learn to scale. But I think with food and specifically these traditional kinds of foods, you're connecting in with the tradition and the history and like you have the opportunity to really go deeper. And so in my classes, like I have a class I just opened up recently, um, about community resilience and food preserving and the different ways we can think about how can I build this as a practice that, you know, fits into my life and then support, you know, my community in whatever ways I want to. Um, you know, things like that. I have another class about connecting like finding ways to reconnect to the joy of cooking because a lot of people I talk to are like, wow, I really want to do this. But I'm like so burned out from cooking. I don't even remember like what it feels like to have fun doing that. Yeah. Yeah. So that, that class, I'm especially proud of because I'm like, that's, that's the kind of thing I want to see in culinary education more. But like I wasn't seeing it. So like it's fine. I'll just do it. Yeah. It's, it's just a very creative outlet. I mean, you kind of need to have creative craft in your life. Just to fill your cup back up, at least for me, like, otherwise, I just get dream with all the other things that won you and your job and, you know, I'll just have family and like it's nice to have fun have fun with in the kitchen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's like, yeah, that's more about just kind of playing and isn't about, you know, trying to perform or, you know, impress anybody. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. Well, I can say not all my food impresses anybody. I'm not everything I make is a winner either. But likes from my own recipes could be, it could be hit or missed any of the most delicious thing you've ever faced or can be a little bit of interesting. My husband calls it a lot. Cassandra is a, his like, you know, in, in Italy, you have, um, different city like, you know, names, according to different cities and stuff. So it's like, this is a Cassandra's version. I love it. I love that. So, so folks can go and you can put in coven quays. Just my last name, Q-U-A-V-E on the site to get 30% off if you'd like to try out on Julia's really fun courses on the site. Thank you for offering that to folks. It's cool. Um, yeah, I guess, you know, and as we kind of think about other other things that you've got happening or if there's anything else you want to share with us about the book, right? You know, neither big takeaways. Yeah. I mean, I think one of the big takeaways from the book that I think makes it different from other food preserving books is this focus on building food preserving out as a practice. Like you want, you want this to be something that fits in your life. Like you don't want to be like, yeah, I'm going to like can everything and then burn out and then be like, oh, no, I failed at preserving. Like you didn't fail. So instead, it's like, okay, well, what can I do with the amount of time I have, the resources I have? Like, what does that look like consistently for me? Um, so in my other non culinary life, I'm also, I do coaching for creative professionals and for academics. And one of the big things that we focus on is that kind of let's build a practice. Like let's make your creative work into a practice that's centered in your life. And that is something that I've then brought into my culinary work too, because again, I see and work with so many people who feel like they've somehow messed up or something because they're not, you know, preserving as much food as they want. It's like just, you know, just start with what you have and do what you can. Like that's all you have to do. I love that. I think starting simple, like you said, all it takes is if you've got, you know, if you want to draw in some herbs, you know, you make some choice, rather than to wear in the house, it's like, it's super easy. It's a good way to get started. And I love, I love even, I'll take, I like to preserve herbs to make tea with as well. I like, I love to preserve, like, you know, in the summer in Atlanta, as you know, like gardens can just really grow. It's like popping back at my mint and my lemon balm and I grew like holy basil and I just chop away and it comes back and like, you know, and so I have a lot of this I can use not only for cooking, but also for for tea making. And I take a lot of joy out of that. It's like sharing teas that I grow or make or, you know, even if I can't grow them, I'll just buy them and like mix them together. Yeah, the different things. Yeah, yeah. And it's such that like, that that brings up such a good point too because these are like really easy ways to make gifts that kind of pull us out of like going and buying stuff, you know, looks like buying people more junk they don't need, right? Like, when I talked about making infused vinegar, it's like people love getting infused vinegars, teas, jams. And I'm just like, this is just like literally scraps I had from making dinner and I put it in vinegar and now I have like, and then I put it in a nice bottle with a label and now it's like a gift that, you know, you would pay like, I don't know, $20 for in the store. Yeah, you know, I, I think that's, I think that's such a good point. Like a lot of these things that you can just beautifully present in a store shelf, but you can so easily make those at home. Like, I, one of the things I've tried to get, I've done the, I used a lot of me like, I tried to like really do skin care for a while, so I was making my own chat sticks. That I moved on, so I was doing different, went things. So I made lemon telly one year. I think I made it a little bit too strong. I didn't dilute it enough. I've stripped it. Everybody liked it. It was very high-prepossil. I realized my mouth was a little bit off in the calculations. Like very high-prepossil. I'm making, I have actually in my in my cupboard right now, I have a huge star, just a green alcohol and the yellow skin of, you know, bunch of lemons I just peeled. No. I used it for other things for cooking. I think it was having a party where we were making lemonade, so I was like, oh, I'll just keep all these, you know, skins and meek lemon chello. And so it was, it was literally so easy because I was just taking the skin off and sticking them into a jar for the alcohol over it. But the same thing like you're saying with infused herbs, you're just sticking them into a jar or a nice little glass bottle, which are also fun to pick up at like thrift shops. You know, I always love jars and bottles at thrift shops because they make some street orchids. Yeah. Yeah. Oh no, it's so nice. And yeah, and yeah, people love, like lemon chello in particular, is a real good crowd-pleaser. I actually, my book that's coming out, not this year, but next year, is a book all about lemons. And so I made a bunch of lemon chello while I was recipe testing for that. And so I was very popular this all of a season. That's great. That's great. Like that. And one of my friends turned me on to a, um, another look or like I've never really, I didn't realize how easy it was to make the cores. Um, and I like, not really kidding, but, um, I snagged some fig leaves from one of my neighbor's triggies, I just, I'm just a few, not getting a sip. And, um, and made this really nice, like fig leaf, the core, which you basically just, you know, boil it in a simple syrup and then, um, let it sit overnight and you squeeze the leaves and take them out. And then I just cut that half 50/50 with gin. That will not have this great work. But you could also do with, you know, grain alcohol or vodka. I like gin, though. So yeah, I did. But yeah. Have you, have you, um, with your classes, are there certain types of, of, of preserve foods you find students really grab his heat to or or just like, are kind of brand new to them they've never tried before? I, it's, you know, it's interesting. A lot of the classes, um, so I do like corporate workshops and things in addition to like teaching online. Um, and a lot of what I get booked to do for those is like that infused vinegar. Like it's really simple stuff. And that's the thing that like people keep wanting me to come in and do, which is great because I think people, it's not that they're like necessarily afraid. They just don't know that it's that easy. And then like they just need somebody to be like, hey, no, like really just put stuff in a jar. Like it's, um, you know, I mean, and with, with some preserving obviously with canning, there's more to it. But yeah, for an infused vinegar. It's like a very easy really simple and fun class to teach and a fun method to just do in general. That's amazing. Oh, I like about to the skill level scalable because in your book, you also include like instructions on how to bake your own vinegar. We did just like a more process. Do you want to just give us the highlights of what that's like? Yeah. Yeah. So the vinegar starts its life as alcohol. It's so like if you've ever left wine out on the counter too long and it's turned into vinegar, like you made vinegar. Congratulations. It's fun. And so it starts out as alcohol and then the alcohol is exposed to air and the bacteria that convert the alcohol into vinegar are aerobics as they need oxygen. And yeah, they do they were saying and then you have vinegar. The whole process can take depending, you know, depending what you're making can take like one to two months. You can age it in different ways and stuff. But yeah, any any alcohol that's I think it's below is like between like 5% and 15% or so. I don't remember the exact percentages, but like about, you know, like wine and beer fall in that range, right? And like those will just turn into vinegar of their own accord. Oh, amazing. So that's like when we think about like, you know, rice, that rice wine vinegar, red wine vinegar, that's literally the wine, deen or cider, it's actually apple cider that's the cider. Yeah. You like the cider? That's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. One other thing I wanted to ask you to tell us a bit more about, too, for the book was this concept of the root cellar. And like, you know, why don't you have a cellar to be where you live, but like, yeah, well, preserving like pre refrigeration with the role of the root cellar. Yes, so a root cellar is basically like a cool place where the temperature is usually pretty steady. And yeah, it's it's kind of just a cool room usually, you know, under the house, hence the cellar, but like sometimes like dug into a hill, that's something like there's a lot of different ways it can look. I mean, you can mimic it in your house. If you have like, I have a crawl space under my house with a dirt floor that like, I could use as a root cellar if I wanted to. Yeah, like some people try root cellar and garages, which I wouldn't do because the temperature goes all over the place in a garage. But pre refrigeration, a lot of people, yeah, would have this kind of cool space away from sunlight, like they just made things last a little longer. And what you would store in there would be some of your preserved food, but also more shelf stable, like things like potatoes and like winter squash and like stuff that can kind of, you know, be out for a while before it goes bad. Nice. Yeah, well, can't really do it in Florida because she digs. That's right in the ground. You have water. A place where you can totally do it. Yeah. Other places. Yeah, other places that have a bit more a little bit where they're away from sea level. Wow. Well, there's just so much we could talk about, but I want to leave a bit of mystery to the future readers. And just say, you know, like your others, like it's just so you make it so easy to understand and so approachable and great photos throughout and great step-by-step instructions. And if you want to go deeper to any of the listeners, you can always check out one of her on classes as well, which I really enjoyed. So yeah, thanks so much Julia for coming on the show and really good luck for the new release. And remember, thanks. Get your get your preorder. Check out the culinary school too. And again, you can use quave, which is my last name, QABE, as the discount code to check that out. And yeah, let's I hope I hope you'll make some new things and share with us like, you know, some things that you're making. And for any of the listeners that's that subscribe to my newsletter, the natures pharmacy, you can comment on the episode there. I post information all the show notes on natures pharmacy every week that the show comes out. So, you know, I'd love to learn more about what you all are making at home. Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Julia. Thank you so much. This was a lot of fun. Awesome. All right, you've been listening to foodie from a prologue. The science podcast for the food here is recorded for you today. I'm re-streamed. I want to thank our producers to Rob Cohen and Christine Roth for playing on an excellent show for us every week. They are the the wizards behind the screen making sure everything gets done correctly on all of the websites. So, thank you for that. I think see you are listeners. We are again in season eight of the show. We are now in the top 1.5 percent of all podcasts. Listen to you in over a hundred countries. It's kind of crazy. Kind of awesome. You're sharing it with your friends. We really appreciate your listening to the show and got some more exciting episodes coming through this season. So, be sure to stay tuned. Thanks so much for listening. Stay healthy out there and we'll see you next time. [Music]