ESPN's Talent Whisperer

The Varsity Podcast is brought to you by Major League Baseball, who this month is staging the World Baseball Classic, where 20 countries and territories compete in an international baseball tournament featuring rosters loaded with 78 MLB All-Stars. Congratulations, you made the Varsity. My name is John O'Ran and I am Pucks Sports correspondent in the host of this pod. I spent Monday in Bristol, Connecticut where I sat down with Mike Foss. Mike is a senior vice president and ESPN who oversees all studio programming, everything from Sports Center to MacVee to First Day to SVP. This conversation was a lot of fun, I think you're really going to like it. But before you get to Mike Foss, today is Wednesday, March 18th, and here's what I'm watching. I am focused on NBA expansion. It looks like Vegas and Seattle should get teams within the next two years. ESPN reported this week that the NBA is going to hold a vote at its Board of Governors meeting next week to explore adding two teams that are going to start in 2028. Now the big number to me, the expansion fees, they're in the $7 to $10 billion range, which shows that the market for team valuations is not slowing down at all. When I had Gary Bettman on the pod recently, we talked about how NHL team valuations have more than doubled over the past three years. And to draw a quick parallel to baseball, these are the kind of numbers that are causing such big riffs in baseball's labor war. The Oreos were the last MLB team to be sold. They were bought by David Rubenstein in 2024 for just $1.7 billion, a far cry from the NBA expansion fees that are approaching $10 billion. Now the owners believe they truly believe that they need a salary cap to unlock these billions of dollars in team valuations, and they're probably right. But the players, they see that kind of money is only benefiting the owners. The trickle down theory doesn't work. And to me, these NBA expansion fees are what's at the heart of baseball's biggest rift right now. Okay, now let's get to ESPN's Mike Foss. Mike, you are overseeing all of the studio shows here at ESPN, the podcasts, everything else. Take us through a typical day. What's the better question? A day or a week in your life? Like, thanks to the typical day. I mean, I don't have a good answer for either. A day, a day, a week, there is no typical day. No, no, because when you're. I made a conscious decision as a portfolio expanded, as the people I work with expanded, that you can't. The best thing that I could do was be present for people as moments present themselves, whatever those moments, the problems, the solutions, whatever happens, I needed to make sure that I was enhancing their experience. So I never thought of myself going into this job as anyone's boss legitimately. I thought of myself as a collaborator. And so when you do that, you have natural check-ins. Like, I'll dial into the get-up meeting at 6 a.m., but I'll listen. I'm coming in there with like, here's a great idea. I'll check in with Pat or Stephen A or text SVP just a minute ago and just see, hey, what do you need? Like, legitimately, every conversation that I have with any of those folks and goes down the line, producers, CPS, whoever, they how can I be helpful, and then kind of work back from there. Because once you understand the motivations, the needs of those people, everything else can kind of fall into place. All right. You already just referenced, like, you know, Greenberg, Stephen A, McAfee, SVP, it takes a special skill set to be able to manage each one of those different personalities. And in fact, I stuttered over Manage because I was like, is that the right word? Do you manage them? No, I collaborate. I collaborate. Yeah. I mean, look, like, how did you develop that? I think you have to fail at managing pretty quickly to figure out your collaborator. So you're a crappy manager, right? A great collaborator. A terrific manager. No, look, I mean, if I was here, or if I wasn't here, I should say, Scott Fanpellet would still be awesome. Pat McAfee is going to be awesome whether I'm here or not doing whatever he decides to do. Staying with Stephen A, go down the list. You know, like all of those guys are so talented. Whether I'm part of this, but the picture or not. So it's less about, again, like I said, managing. And it's much more focused on collaborating. I think some of that also comes from my background. I played collegiate soccer. I practiced at MOS, never played, but you get in, you have this identity as a, as a young player, like, oh, I'm a striker, or I'm a defender, or I'm a center-miffin, or whatever. And then you get to college and you're with all of these alphas, right? And you realize, oh, I have to figure out how best to serve this team, right? And then you move up another level and you realize, oh, just to hang on, I need to figure out how to be essential to these people who are world-class world-cut players, right? So I come here and I'm faced with the best of the best at what they do. It's not, oh, here's, here's my idea. Hey guy, who's super successful. Here's what I'm about. It's, hey, what are you trying to do? What are you trying to achieve? How do I help that journey? It's worked out so far. When I was discussing, when I was setting this up with Josh Hurlowitz, who of course runs communications for ESPN, he described you as the Pat McAfee whisperer. I hate that. Do you hate that? Because I like that, that makes it seem like Pat's complicated in a way that he's just from my perspective, he's complicated. I don't, I disagree. I think Pat's very, very straightforward. That wants to win at everything that he does. He is hyper intelligent. He is a successful talent. Yes, but I mean, he produces that show. He runs that business. He has launched multiple other careers, simultaneous to that business. I think anybody who spends all of 60 seconds with Pat realizes that this is a very smart, intense, driven person. So if you are willing to match that energy and also willing to learn and be humble in that moment, this is a very successful person, a very driven person. What can I learn from this? If you take that approach, I think the relationship is beneficial. I mean, we were talking off Mike and there are several people that we both know who have had very successful, very beneficial relationships with Pat because they have taken that approach. So I don't think Pat whispers ever. So again, to match that energy, I doubt I am too. Yeah, I think it's, again, it goes back to the collaboration. So I still, I want to get into the actual shows and sort of what they're doing and how they're unique and now they're going to change sort of moving forward. But I really am fascinated by this, but by, you know, your job of dealing with all these different people. Like, how did you get started? How did this become sort of apparent to you that you were good at this and that this is what you wanted to do? Well, I think I think every person that achieves any level of success also has a little bit of self-loathing. So I think that's the easy answer. I just don't think I've been successful. I look, I personally have always tried to innovate myself. I started at USA Today writing, editing, copy editing, watched a site there that was geared towards social media and capturing that in, in its beginnings and its infancy. And there went to Fox because I saw, you know, an opportunity to weave video and build video production into that web experience and have parlied that into a career DSPN that has pursued those passions and those interests and always tried to, you know, make myself better and then make the people around me better. Again, I hate that the through line keeps coming back, but that really is like when you take a step, I can say, okay, why is this worth the way that it has? It's always been, I mean, there are two guys that are helping put this together right now that I remember, you know, in 1819 as we were starting to launch some of the digital live streaming shows like Hoops Dreams and Countdown a Game Day and others at DSPN and then we're like, okay, let's bring creative people together and see what we can do. And that's always been, you know, my ethos and just taken that and applied it to some of our signature grants has been, you know, I think it seems at least in the ratings it has been a very beneficial partnership so far. Right, so I sort of asked this question already. You know, you know, you're going to have to do that. have such different personalities that you oversee, but it's more than the different personalities. It's such different shows. Yeah. Let's start with MacPhee's show. What makes that successful? I mean, you've described Pat already as super intelligent. Somebody who wants to win. Somebody's able to connect with people. There are a lot of people that have those characteristics that have terrible shows. What makes his show work? What are some of the terrible shows? Look, I think we've obviously had that actually. It would be a great podcast. Can we talk about the terrible shows? Yeah, the things that happen. Look, I think we've already listed some of the personal attributes that Pat has. There is a very tightly knit group in Indian apolis, so if the 15, that have been together for a long time. I think I think add loyalty to that as well. That crew has built that show from the ground up together. They are very authentic to themselves as well. I think you go in and watch, and I love to do this. Go back and watch pre ESPN episodes of the Pat McHackery Show and look at where those guys started and how they've developed over time. Where they are now, their audience has been part of that with them. They carried a very committed and loyal YouTube audience to ESPN. ESPN has put them on millions and millions of television screens, so they've gotten benefited from the exposure that we've given them. But as that audience has grown, they have insisted on staying authentic to themselves, and they're interests. They're driven by their interests. They have turned the world baseball classic into a holiday on that show. You look around and I can say it now three, four, five weeks ago as they were starting to put that together and take a step back. That's really smart. It's easy to say that it's smart now, but to have that awareness for him to have that awareness and that group to have awareness, okay, this is going to be a thing. We're going to make this a thing and know how to authentically build that within their show. I think that's their many reasons, but I think that's one that really separates them. You know what I like, speaking as a viewer, what I like about Pat is that he's totally unpredictable, and he's somebody that just doesn't work in a corporate environment. You called it authentic, I guess. I guess that's sort of another word for it. But from your standpoint, there's always, you know, the Norby episode. There was a there was a you remember, do you recall that? There was also the time why he called out I think another ESPN executive. When that happens, does your heart sink or do you do you know him? It's like it. I've just got you recognize what's happening and are able to. I guess my question is like, are those the worst days of ESPN? Yeah. No, not definitely not the worst days. We're still pretty. That we're still we're steady. It's a little bit of tremor. A little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I might be in a caffeine. Now I look like again, Pat's authentic, Pat's hyper competitive too. And when it goes back to expecting of himself starts with him with him. He is always holding himself up to an insanely high standard performance. I don't know how you do a show three hours every single day during the week, then do game day, then do raw, then launch a movie career on the side. If you're not pushing yourself to the utmost, the highest standard possible. And I think when he recognizes an opportunity for for someone else to meet that standard, he's not going to waste time by having a side winding conversation. So he's going to go, Hey, here's where I am. Here's where I think you should be. This weekend has a matter of fact, I'm hanging out. Nobody deal got a hyper bear chaper in my house sitting in there. Just a little bit of peace. On email, just catching up and I get a text from them, and he's like, Hey, wash his sports center. And then he gives feedback on sports center. That's actually, that's really smart. I should have thought of that. And to me, it's like, wow, like that guy cares. That guy's like fully bought it. I think there's this sense that it's just him on an island doing his own thing, but he's super invested in what we're doing. So I think whenever he sees someone not meeting that standard, he's going to call it out. And odds are, he's probably right. So yeah, whenever it happens on air, you know, I think that's just him living in the moment, because that show is very much in the moment. And when he recognizes an opportunity to speak his mind, he's going to. And it just so happens, he's on a microphone most of the day. So it might come out there. All right, you referenced our sports center, which is you oversee the studio shows. That's about the studio show. Yeah, that's one of them. What was his idea? I'm dying to know. He was just looking to move something up and then on down a little bit. Just a little adjustment here, a little adjustment there. So I'm not going to weigh everything. We got to pay that's for the inner circle subscribers. I follow that. Oh, that's a you got the puckling go. I like that. Yeah, I see for short, like I asked the exact same questions to Jimmy Petaro and to end the park Magnus and that they have totally bought into the need to allow, well, they don't own the show. They rent the show, but they need to allow, you know, Pat to be Pat and you know, to maintain that authenticity. It must be like, it must make your job easier, just kind of knowing that you don't always have to go up the ladder to explain sort of what's going on sometimes. I guess I go up the ladder to explain what's going on anyway because I think while we don't own the show, we can own the lessons from the show. And I think I think it, it behooves us as a company to recognize what's happening from 12 to 2 on ESPN and then 12 to 3 everywhere else. If it's just a, well, that's that's Pat and you just kind of shrug and like, well, that's good. Oh, that's bad. You don't really learn anything from it and that's not that's not really useful or beneficial to the investment because there's a significant investment on both sides. So yeah, we don't own the content, but as things happen, both positive and negative, if we're not learning for them from them, that's a disservice to everyone here. What are some of the lessons from the show that you think would work across studio shows? I think I think we talked about it with the World Baseball Classic, but one primary one is his willingness to embrace ball sports. You know, he doesn't feel the need to rely exclusively on the NFL or college football. He could. He's great in both of those areas and, you know, from a linear perspective, if he just played those notes, I don't think the audience would suffer, but he doesn't do that. He's willing to go full in on the Olympics. He's, you know, the World Baseball Classic, hockey, soccer, whatever golf, you know, like he he is willing to embrace anything immediately and throw himself into it. So I think that's that's a big lesson. That's something that I would love to see us borrow, steal, embrace across the board because again, like we're we are ubiquitous. We are wide-ranging and our audiences as well. So I think anytime that we can do that across programs, we're going to be better. Major League Baseball returns next week with the sport riding a wave of momentum following a memorable World Baseball Classic and the most watched World Series in more than 30 years. Baseball fans are getting ready for what promises to be another season of great play on the field, interesting storylines and entertaining events. Led by four-time MVP Shohei O'Tani and three-time MVP Aaron Judge, MLB's biggest stars lead an incredible crop of talented athletes playing an exciting brand of baseball that is led to increased attendance, viewership and social engagement. In 2026, MLB welcomes two new partners in NBC and Netflix joining Fox, ESPN, TBS, Apple and MLB Network bringing fans all the action. This season, MLB will debut a new automated balls and strikes technology, bring the all-star game to Philadelphia as part of its celebration of the 250th anniversary of the United States and return to Iowa for MLB at Field of Dreams. Fans can find all of the game and broadcast information at MLB.com/watch. Major League Baseball. There's no place like home. Hey there, Poodle and Maddie here from Reality Gaze. Do you love reality shows about a bunch of women with matching hair extensions, trying to fight against the patriarchy of the Mormon Church? Who doesn't? The secret lives of Mormon wives is back on Hulu. And Taylor Frankie Paul has returned with her Mormon minions. And we are recapping all the drama on reality gays. This show has us fully overstimulated. It's messy, it's Mormon, it's everything. Follow and listen to Reality Gaze wherever you get your podcast. It's, let's go to Sports Center. I feel a little bit sports center. It was the very first show, I believe, in 1979, plus the sports center. It's identified with the SPN. And of course, it's gone through a myriad of changes as highlights have become ubiquitous. What describes Sports Center to me right now? News and personality. Really, like those are the two words that filter everything through and that in that after highlights are foundational. They always will be. But the way we tell the story through those highlights is really important. And I think this iteration, and that's not to speak ill of anything that we've done previously, because it's obviously led us to this point and that step would have been very successful. But I think, I think moving forward and where we are right now, really leaning into the personalities of our talent to tell stories across the board through their interviews, through their interactions with analysts, through highlight packages, through monologues. How do we, how do we tap into those unique personalities and then building and export centers? So a Randy Scott Gary Streisd sports center is going to feel different than a Scott Van Pell sports center, which will feel different than a Kevin Agondi Christine Williamson sports center. And that's a good thing. Each, each episode of sports center should reach a different audience. And I think you're going to find, you know, if you watch the 7AM sports center, you might not be up to watch SVP. And that's okay, because there is an audience for that as well. And that audience is expecting something a little bit different because it's Scott. So that's been, that's been a primary focus over the past year or so. It was bringing in the right chemistry, the right mix of talent to make sure that each day part reflects the audience expectations. You know, it's so interesting about that to me is it sounds like you described. What was the Jamel Michael Smith one, the six? It's like, okay, we're going to develop a sports center around the personalities of hosts. Was it too early to do that? Why did the six not work? Because that sounds like that's what you're describing. It's a great question. I wasn't, I wasn't in the middle of that. I can't speak to, to why that show didn't perform the way that, that, that, certainly the people involved had hoped. What I can say is that the additions that we're putting together now have to come back to a passion for sports, a love for sports. Everything is filtered through the lens of what has happened that day or the day before, the night before. You know, so for, for Gary and Randy, you know, that's, that's a little bit sillier, you know, and I think, I think it probably wouldn't work at 6 p.m. You know, I think I think there's an expectation at 6 p.m. of a certain type of sports. I want it serious, right? A little bit serious. A little bit. A little bit, but like, even, even that, like, Nogandi had a tops, a 101 tops card, how you'd, over seven figures on Friday here on campus, because he loves collecting cards. And he spoke to a world harsherizer to tee up the segment. And it was, it was like a little silly. It was a little goofy, like, not everybody's a, a card collector, but because it's, it's Nogandi and the audience has equity with him and trusting him. They're willing to go down that path and get into, like, I don't collect cars, but I'm like, Kevin loves this stuff. So I'm, I'm riveted, like, it was an act for two minutes. I'm like, huh, honey, because when you said Nogandi, yeah, I have, I have no like, I have, I have no like, I have, I have no like, I'm too. The temple grad, and I was going to shout out to Philly, there, my son went to temple. But when you said personalities, like, I'm trying to think of his, like, he's a really nice guy. I'm trying to think that his person is that he collects cards. He loves to collect cards. And that, and like, it's, we're not making an entire show around that, obviously. But when there are opportunities to unlock that, and I think, I think, coupling him with Christine Williamson has been awesome for us because her personality plays off of his so well because she is, you know, so, so effervescent. And so, you know, I would say new school, I think, I think, I mean, like, you made reference earlier about a TikTok, right? The TikTok reel that you saw of a sports center anchor. And it wasn't Christine. But, but by the way, I kind of look at my son sent me a TikTok reel by a sports center anchor that he just made him laugh. Yeah. And I didn't recognize the anchor. And I covered this stuff. I felt terrible about it. But I think, I think what you see is anchors like Gary and Randy and Christine, she pulled Matt Barri into it when she was hosting the 2p with him, you know, Scott, Michael Leaves and Nicole Prisco, like all of them are embracing cross-platform content. And it actually helps us as producers because then you can start to see that personality demonstrate itself. And like, okay, so let's pull this and bring this into this show. And let's pull this and bring it into that show and really unlock these things. And so it doesn't, it doesn't really necessarily feel like some big creative swing. Like, oh boy, look at us. We're doing personality and sports center. It's a much more natural integration of that chemistry. And it goes back to the authenticity that we talked about that made Pat so successful. Like, if you infuse that into these shows, that's going to resonate with people and it's going to make them want to stick around. So, going back to some of the complaints about the 6, when it happened, it was like, I just want highlights and interviews. And what's the role of highlights and interviews in the current sports center? So I hear the highlights complaint all the time. And it's the immediate tell that they're not actually watching sports. It's like, bro, we are doing, we started highlights. We are only doing highlights. Like the first, that's all I see obvious in this highlight. Yeah, the first 10 to 12 minutes of that show are pure highlights, almost almost nonstop. We launched a sports center plus on Disney plus. And the entire premise was, we're just going to do highlights for 10 minutes as fast as we can, just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So I think that complaint is rooted in some notion or time of ESPN that just frankly doesn't exist anymore. Maybe it did. I wasn't around. When it did, if that's the case, the sports centers that we're doing now and the shows that we're doing now, like are lean, like the whole premises built on, the games have happened. We are going to bring you the news that the highlights of those games and discuss them in the analysis. ESPN Sports Center in 2030. An impossible question to answer, but I know you think, I know you think about this. I mean, obviously, I'm on Mars. It can be great. We're building colony. We'll Elon be a consultant. Who does that? The money's right. In your mind, how is it going to change? Well, I think we are already starting to see how those changes could manifest. I don't know what those changes will be, but we have to be open to the notion that we will have to change. And I think for a long time, there was resistance to that, pre-Jimmy leading the company. I think there was a certain level of resistance, DTC, streaming, social, and all of those scary buzzwords 10 years ago that are now just commonplace in every conversation that anyone has about media have permeated through this company and folks are embodying it in a way that they weren't a decade ago. So, five years from now, four years from now, I think we are much better set up both in terms of culture and staff to realize and absorb those changes in real time, then turn, say, okay, this is how that applies to this show. That answer is going to be different. Forget up than it is for first take, then it is for Sports Center, then it is for MacaPee. And on and on and on. The Sports Center plus example is a good one of, okay, here's this audience on Disney plus who for the first seven years of that platform didn't have any sports whatsoever, right? No studio programming, I should say. So, an entire audience base that actively chose a paper product that didn't have studio programming. And now sports centers here. What can we do to make people care about that? How do we compete with no longer are we competing with what is available on money or television, but literally everything Disney has ever made. Ever, ever, ever. So I think that sports center obviously is very different. Putting a staff together that can recognize those nuances, those subtleties of that audience, and build a pretty flawless 15-minute version of sports center that moves but is also super informative. And you walk away from that feeling like, oh, I have that sports center experience. I think that just shows wherever we end up in 2030, the Mars or streaming somewhere, we have the right people and we have the right sensibilities as a company to address, absorb, and excel. I love that you say you hear from about the highlights all the time. I'm very online, John. You know, very online. I imagine the other one that you hear about all the time is the Halcyon Days of the 1990s. You know, when you had Keith and Dan and Eisen and Stuart Scott. And it'll never come back. But it sounds like in your own way, it is coming back a little bit. You're going after the personalities of the sports center anchors. After the person, but it's not just, I think, I think it's not just the personalities, right? There are lots of people that have, you have a great personality. Boy, really? Do you want to host you? Do you want to host a sports center? No, but like, that doesn't, it's hard to host a sports center. That's a hard job to do. And there are plenty of talented people that are on camera for us on other shows that couldn't do it. So I think personality alone is maybe a little disingenuous. They have to be great writers as well. And that's-- so Eisen came back recently, which has been awesome, and getting to know him and getting to know his process, and realizing just how good of a writer he is when we brought him back for his sports center special back in August. He's doing, again, in April. It really kind of cemented something that I probably would have gotten to at some point. But it just kind of shaved off a few chapters, where it was like, yeah, all of these guys were awesome writers. And so I think, I think, bringing-- yes, we're trying to bring back the spirit of what those guys did in the late '90s, early 2000s through personality, but also through really, really good writing. Like, you can't-- there are no shortcuts for great writing. And I think you see that. And I said, all the people that I read a little. When I watch ESPN, this is everything's perochial. I grew up in DC. I love DC. I watch PTI. I watch my Maryland Terrapin Buddy SVP. I don't consider that to be sports center still. I consider that to be like sort of Scotts show of sorts. Yeah. I don't really tune into sports centers a ton when I'm just sort of like lounging and watching. Do you foresee a day at all when sports center becomes the emphasize? And you go more after the Mac fee type of shows or the PTI type of shows, or even I'll throw-- I know Scott Van Pell has a sports center, but again, I'll throw that in as well. Yeah. So I think one thing that sports center needs to do better is how we distribute ourselves outside of the linear day part. And I think a lot of these shows, PTI, Scott, Pat, they have done a great job. Had mastered that. Had started there. And so they get that credit. They get that equity because not everyone has 12 to 3 open, or 530 to 6 free. At 6 PM, a lot of people-- what myself included are taking kids to soccer practice or gymnastics or wherever-- but we have these platforms in YouTube and Hex, Instagram, TikTok, where you can come back to those clips and have those experiences in another way. So I think-- I don't think that we will de-emphasize sports center if we're able to adapt the distribution model and make sure that those resonant moments, those TikToks that your son is finding, are shared across those places. So I think that is-- again, as we're trying to gear this up for the next 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 years and beyond, making sure that this sports center brand is hitting those platforms appropriately. That's essential. You referenced early on in this conversation, working for USA Today. And you started a-- for the win, the FTW is like a seminal type of deadspin, big lead type of-- I was going to say publication, but website that gets out there. We've referenced the sports center, Reels or TikToks, or how big a role is-- I was going to say digital, but that's so broad now-- is social in what you don't. And then I'm going to follow that up also with digital, because I consider YouTube not really social. Am I right? Sure. I don't know. Does anybody write anywhere? I know what's-- what is the truth? Who knows? So social-- I mean, if you don't have a social presence in the year of our Lord of 2026, you're dead. Do you have a social presence? I do. I do. I do. Yeah. I don't think people are terribly interested in what I have to say. Really, why do I have you on this pod? I mean, I'm a surprise to you, or I can rule it out. Come on. I got to be honest. Yeah, but I do think these brands, these shows-- you have to have a place where people are building a relationship with you outside of TV. You have to. That's the way society consumes now, in a large swap. And I think of it, honestly, if you go to a TikTok or you go to an Instagram or YouTube, you're inundated with everyone's stuff. You get everything from everywhere. And what I found just in my own personal experience-- and I think it's dangerous to use that as the example. But I think plenty of people have had similar interactions with content. You see something that resonates with you. Over time, if you see that consistently, you're going to go to the main course. I look at all that as appetizers. And Topus is great every once in a while. But sometimes you want to stay, too. So I look at that for our shows and for our talent. They have to be in those places and reaching those people. Because if not, somebody else will. And there's only 24 hours in the day. Still, I think we're trying to figure out who we're spanned at. But there's only a finite amount of time. So if that's where people are, we have to make sure that we're creating good experiences for them in those places. You're also overseeing ESPN's podcasting. How is that developing? Because I have to say ESPN seeded podcasting for the longest time. I think I wasn't sure why. Because you have personalities. You have newsbreakers. You have what, when I get Jeff Passen or Don Van Aad on my pod, they're great. And they don't really have good news coming about Passen soon. Oh, in terms-- I think that's already been an end. Yeah, yeah. Passen is doing his own podcast. Passing is doing his own. Passen pod. That's tight. He's going to be a terrible host. He's a great guest. But we'll pass him where to suit on his own podcast. We'll find out. So I agree with you. We have-- podcast is such a challenge for ESPN, I think, because our talent are across so many things. There's only so much time in the day. So much time in the day. But you may have already heard it, too. Like that's why I look at somebody like Brian Winhorse who has the hoop collective, which has a massive, massive following. And it's kind of remarkable, because he empties the clip on "Get Up," and then he reloads, and does it all over again on "First Take." And who-- You know what's interesting about that is Brian's been on my pod. And it was an entirely new audience. That's not listening via ESPN. Yeah. So nobody was like, oh, I've heard all that stuff before. But to me, I think that's what's so interesting for us trying to thread the needle for our podcast. And being very discerning about what we launch, and when we launch it, it's quite difficult. When you have this talent that is already on "Get Up," on a sports center, on "First Take," then turn around and say, OK, now give me an hour. But stuff that you haven't used-- The past five. And so I think we're finding success in areas that are maybe a little bit underserved, like fantasy focus, or fantasy football podcast with field of the aids has been a mainstay. And that audience has only grown. We brought it to YouTube. The group collective, I named. So I think we're looking to find things that are going-- that are going to augment what we're already doing, which also means that some of the straight down the middle sports shows that have massive podcast followings, we're probably not gonna be into a competition with those because we already have these things like first take and like get out. - So what are you talking about? Like a first take podcast, it's basically just the show. - Well, we did, we do that and it performs very well. So that's actually when I say I watch a PTI, I usually just download the lesson. - Right, so if I'm launching something new, when I already have first take and PTI, like, hey, let's do PTI, but for a podcast, but different, you mean PTI? Oh, yeah, okay, maybe PTI works as is. So it becomes less of, hey, we're doing general sports talk and much more like, hey, fantasy football. This is what we're gonna start first draft with Mel Kiber, Field and Greeny. Like, that's a great avenue for Greeny that you wouldn't get from get up. So I think identifying those and making sure that we're serving people that type of show and building an audience that way, like, that's been very- - So I don't wanna pick on passin', but I do wanna pick on pass, absolutely. - Yeah, pick up. - Feel free to pick on passin'. - I would imagine if I was in Jeff Passon's role, I would be beating your door down, saying, like, let me do a podcast, please. - You did? - Yeah, and we did same thing with Seth Wicker-Cham, same thing with Dan Van Nader. Those guys haven't yet, but now I feel like they might. - Thank you for that. (laughing) - Yeah, I think, but I do think, like, you're touching on something that, you know, we have found success on YouTube, watching video series that kind of touch those, those different nerves that you're not getting served through a studio experience. And that's why I think like, Jeff's was such an easy thing to Greeny because it is an audience that is hungry or something new and he's got such tremendous voice. Like, yeah, this is going to work. Jeff, this is going to work. It's better work, Jeff. Jeff is better work. - When you look out there, who does podcasting well? Actually, can I re-ass that? (laughing) When you look out at the landscape, it's not necessarily about who does podcasting well. It's more about, like, what are some of the podcasts out there that you wish that you had, you know, over at ESPN? - Oh, interesting. I love negotiating with myself. Wow, so I mean, I would, I will make this less about sports for a moment, just because that wasn't, yeah, that was not a sports focused question. - No, so I mean, like, I think about, you know, Sean Fantasy and Amanda Dobrins have the big picture. Like, I love that show, love Matt Bellini's show. Like, when I look at, personally, I use podcasts as a little bit of an escape from, you know, work and what comes with it. So being able to listen to a different industry and different people in those industries talk about their stuff for a change is like a really nice off speed pitch and a palette cleanser. So I really like going to those shows. I love Ariel Hawaii's show as well. He was obviously here for a little while. And just like pulling, pulling different things, different inspiration from those types of shows. So yeah, if I, if, you know, all of sudden, ESPN was expanding into Hollywood, like I probably wanna hunt down Bellini and Fantasy and look for that, for sure. - All right, Mike, we have a couple minutes left. Okay, you're at cocktail party. - Okay. - What's your go-to story? Just like, you deal with so many, you don't have to name names, but you deal with so many, like type A personalities and talent. You gotta have a good one. - Oh my God. It's not so much a story. I love that Steven A. text the way that he talks. (laughing) I think that's, I think that's-- - What is that all caps I'm assuming? - So there's a lot of question marks that follow, and it'll just be like, hey, what time is this meeting or what time are we doing this, but it'll follow seven question marks, you know? So it's always, he's always on. I love that one. I don't know, I don't know, that's really hard. I don't go to many cocktail parties either. I think that might be, maybe that's-- - That's dating myself. - That's like-- - In '26. - No, no. - In '19th century. - No, I think I think I'm wrong for that. I need to go to more parties. I think that's probably what it is. There's just not, you know, talking to Scott Van Peltz who's taking up too much time in there. Can't get out. - Yeah, Marilyn Gradjor, pains in the fun, believe me. - They drink well though. (laughing) - Well or a lot? - Well, you know. - Hey man, can't thank you enough for spending the time in doing this. A lot of fun as always, and hopefully I'll see you soon. - I appreciate it, thanks for having me. (upbeat music) - That was a lot of fun. I really want to thank Mike Foss for joining the pod this week. And thanks to to the great Josh Krulewitz Mike Soltis and Andy Hall for their work in setting all this up. Most importantly though, I want to thank you for listening to The Varsity, an Odyssey podcast and partnership with Puck. I also want to acknowledge the executive editors from Puck that's Gabby Grossman, Ben Landy, John Kelly, and the great team from Odyssey, Bob Tabitor, Patrick Antonetti, and of course our Nesson partners, Mark Merlock and Greg Poeth. If you like this podcast, make sure to sign up for my newsletter. It's also called The Varsity. Head over to put that news and use a code word The Varsity. All one word, you'll get a 20% discount. And I will see you on Sunday. (upbeat music)