Esoteric Systems: Why We Are Drawn To Them and How We Can Use Them to Serve Our Lives

[MUSIC] When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah, did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one. In a sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive, one on one hand, and everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Pantrow. This is the GOOP podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Hello, and welcome to the GOOP podcast. I'm Gwyneth Pantrow. This episode is part of our pursuit series. And so I am once again sitting down with my friend Emily Hickey. Today's topic is super interesting in my book, Esoteric Systems. So astrology, numerology, tarot. These ancient systems we use to try to guide our lives and make decisions in an increasingly technological world. It can be easy to write these things off as woo-woo or driven by coincidence. And I definitely have done that in the past. But today, Emily and I want to dive deep on what those systems are, why we are drawn to them. And the unexpected insight and guidance they can provide for us. So let's get into my conversation with Emily. [MUSIC PLAYING] What's up, Anne? What's up, Cleanie? Welcome back to the GOOP podcast. Thank you. How have you been? I've been great. Good. Very busy. Yeah. 2026. 2026 Firehorse Center? Yeah, I mean, it's the thunder clap of a year. It is. What's happening? What's the energy behind it for you? Productive chaos. Yes. I would say that's absolutely very an apt characterization of what it feels like so far. It's a nuts year. It is a nuts year. But it feels positive. Yeah, it's going to a cool new place. Oh, well, you can film me in afterwards. OK, I'm extremely excited about this quarter's chapter of the Emily Hickey podcast. Because today, we're going to talk about esoteric systems, like astrology, numerology, tarot, which none of us really-- Neither of us-- I don't even know about that one. I don't know much about it either, but maybe we should. Yeah. Manifestations, signs, anyogram, maybe human design, which is an interesting one, all of these, like prayers and Feng Shui, all these systems that are modalities, I guess, that people are really interested in. Whenever we post on Instagram about anything in this category, there's an insatiable appetite for horoscopes and all this kind of stuff. So I thought it would be really interesting, especially because you're super into astrology and you teach me so much about it. And then I have my systems, too, that I rely on. Just to canvas them a little bit to talk about each one of these systems a little bit. And do we actually believe in them? Why are we drawn to them? How are they serving us? And why women, I feel, are so drawn to it. And then-- I don't know, then they're so dismissed, as well, right? It's like people think it's bullshit. And even really open people, like Brad, for example, if I'm like, oh, Emily just said this cool thing about-- it's like the he glazes over. You know what I mean? Anything sort of that's not, I guess, based in science. But I wanted to ask you about, well, what were you going to say? I think-- I have a lot of friends like Brad. I think there's a spectrum of belief. There's a spectrum of that people and humans fall into that sort of represents their emotional point of view on life. And I think on the one side of that spectrum is people like Brad, they're cold, dry light of science, rationalist, that things can be measured and observed. And they might even be religious or Christian or whatever, but they still think in terms of our physical existence on the planet that it can be explained and observed that it is linear, that time progresses linear, that there's a difference between mind and matter, that nature is inanimate, that there's not like some interconnectedness. And then you have on the far other side, kind of the romantics or the spiritualists who think that it isn't just what you see is what you get, but that there's this underside of reality and of existence that cannot be explained by science that has to be accessed through esoteric systems, and that's sort of the point, right? That it can't be accessed by science, that it involves faith of some kind or like a knowing. - Yes, and and a belief that we maybe just don't have the perceptional abilities to explain everything, and that this stuff deserves to be heard. That's what Jung, the great Jung, would have said, it's like dreams, that these sort of pre-scientific systems deserve to be heard, that there's some sort of esoteric wisdom that explains things that can't otherwise be explained, and that there's some sort of horizontal kind of cosmic fabric that's connecting everything that if you can tap into that, that you get sort of this other compass. - One sort of example that I thought might, you know, I think about when I think, you know, people don't believe at all in this kind of stuff. I think about the aspen trees, the birch trees, or the fungill system, which is all one organism, right? Like science has proven that it's all one interconnected, like with these connected with these tiny little phylove bacteria or whatever they are. So like that to me, I'm like, yeah, okay, there's a mushroom growing here, and there's a mushroom growing three miles away, and who is going to believe that they're connected or not? Like there has to be some. - I agree, but I mean, my landscaper was telling us about the mother tree concept, because we have aspen's in our backyard. They literally share root system, but they're now understanding that even other kinds of trees, there's a mother tree that feeds the entire underground system, even if it's not like directly related to it. But I think, you know, like one of my weird, but true articles from the Wall Street Journal last year was about this undifferentiated brain matter, growing in a petrijist that on its own grew eyes. Like look at it, it's unbelievable. - Are you serious? - Yeah, it's unbelievable. But it grew these very primitive versions of eyes, and I think it's the same thing as like pathogenesis, like when a lizard suddenly develops male reproductive organs because there's no one else, there's not a male. And so I just think that there's a frontal edge to life that improvises and creates. To me, I don't need an explanation physically, because I don't think that's where it lives. - So what do you think? - I think that I truly think we don't have the ability to measure all of the properties of life, but I think that the rationalest side of things, it's almost nihilistic or atheistic to me. Like I don't, I think that there's more going on, and you can't just reduce to what we as humans can understand. And, you know, I do think these things deserve to be heard, and on top of that, I think that if you look at the etching or astrology or numerology, you know, like the, they are masterpieces. I think it's like the same as like the pyramids, or you know that there are spiritual and ethical masterpieces that the human race has created. And I would count astrology as one of those same as yoga, same as acupuncture, the etching, Chinese philosophies, monotheism, you know, like all of those, by the way, popping up at many, many of those popped up between 500 and 600 BC was called the Axial Age for my religious studies major going deep. But I mean, it's really fascinating that at a certain point in time, the foundations of much of human philosophy and religion popped up without any contact. - Why at that time? - I don't know, which is the development of our brains, or who knows what, but for some reason around 500 to 600 BC, a lot of the foundational systems popped up, like monotheism, the Old Testament, or Buddhism. Buddha lived at the same time as I think Confucius and Laozu. And that was like when the etching kind of evolved in what it is. But anyway, like, and it's interesting too, because a lot of those religions, like Judaism is based on a very mystical, like there is a whole magic element, I think same with Buddhism in a certain sense, you know, there's like a, it will, I guess, Buddhism is more contemplative, but there's something very soulful and about how those religions were structured and like what the practices were meant to do in terms of like, in live and in life. lightening the human soul, like connecting us more to our humanity, understanding the diminishment of ego and all those things. - Yeah, that's it. I think that they're masterpieces. And if you think about like Taoism and the etching, like it is so much about going with these cosmic laws or just the way that nature functions and the like the resolution of opposites, that strengths will always turn into weaknesses and then they'll turn back into strengths. Like based on how they're tied to our perception of ourselves, our ego. - Yeah, and well, that you can tap into these natural laws that like, you know, the rain will always be followed by the sun. The day has always followed by the night that there's just this duality of opposites. Yeah, like there's a flow to natural life. We're part of natural life. And so if you stop trying so hard and flow into things, you know, that you're gonna be more successful and not get so upset by change. And that's the etching is the book of changes. And it is a way. - Yeah, tell me about the book of science with this thing. - Let's hear it. - I mean, we're gonna have to sit down and do it together sometime. - Lay it on me. - Lay it on me. - So it basically, you know, is this ancient Chinese campaigns like Yoda. It's like very Jedi. You know, is this ancient kind of companion book to life and to navigating what is it? The only thing we can count on in life, which is change. And but it also is change in two ways. It's the transformation of yourself, you know? And so people, it was built first sort of Imperial China for statesmanship and for people that was used first as an oracle. Like, what should I do? Should I go to fight these guys on this data on that date? Should I plant the crop on this data on that date? Like things like that. But then it evolved into what you're saying, which is like this companion book to developing yourself and to navigating difficult dilemmas and things like that with grace. And it's sort of like a, it's a framework for introspection. Like the solution to the problem is always you, you know? And so you go to always the problem. - Yeah, but it's very clear at this point, yeah. But it, like somehow, it's one of those things, like we've talked about this, that when you look at it, it looks back. It's like this psychological mirror. And it taps into all these metaphors of nature, like wind on a rippling through a pond or things like that to help you get out of your rational mind and the sort of blind spots of how you rationally think about things and solve a problem at a different level. So you could go to it. I've been, I've used it maybe four times in the last couple of years. So I'll go to it and say, like I did it last night when I was thinking about this and gave it just my current, you know, disastrous problem that I'm trying to figure out. Like what should I, what should I do? And there's an art to asking the question in eight words or less. And it somehow comes back at something that is so perfect that it, do you open the book randomly to you? - No, you, so you throw coins. And there's a thing online that I use, but back in the day they would split the, it would take like 30 minutes just to do the reading 'cause they would split these stocks. But it's basically, you throw coins three coins six times. And then it counts heads or tails. That's sort of what, I mean, but there's just so many cool concepts within it. And it gives you a hexagram based on that coin toss. And it is a metaphor for the situation you're in. And then when you change one of those lines into its opposite, which is very Chinese, change something into its opposite, change a strength into a weakness or a weakness into a strength, it shows you how to get out of that moment in your life. And it is one of those things where it's somehow, it is unbelievable how accurately, it will come back at like it almost knows what you asked. But it has to be, I asked it something for you and it came back with nonsense, but because I can't ask it for you. - Oh, interesting. - You know what I mean? You're just, you're, what is it called? You're like breaking a memory where I once had a therapist so I must have been in my late 20s and go on. And I had a really important question. It was like a real like, do I do this or do I do this? Which would have completely changed the course of my entire life. And we did the e-ching. That's the only time I've, she did it and she was like, let's do it. And it very clearly was told me not to do the sort of more far-flung thing that would like completely have altered the course of my life. - That's so interesting. - And it was, and it was, and it somehow knew. Like it's a wild, and you did that, you followed. - I followed it, I did. 'Cause I was very, very, very split. And it would have taken my life in like a completely, I mean, I wouldn't have done acting and it was very clear with me. - Yeah, yeah. - No, it will come in just bullet clear. I'm gonna ask you later what the question was. But I mean, that's, I'll tell you not on TV. - Okay. (laughs) - For whatever this is. - No, it's fascinating. And it's somehow, so then the question. So either it's like just a Rorschachy type thing. - Yeah, like are we doing these things to feel better? Do we think there's inherent wisdom in this stuff? - I mean, I think what, I mean, this is discrediting to myself, I guess, but I think it somehow knows, not in the sense that what Jung would say is that, you know, we've talked about this, his concept of synchronicity, that he thinks things come out of a shared moment that are synchronicity with each other. So that it isn't that the coins know what you asked or know who you are, or, you know, there's no cause and effect to it at all. It's just that if the moment you threw the coins, it came out of the psychology, the shared psychology of that moment in time. - Which transferred energetically something onto the coins. - Yeah, or that they came out of the same thing. - They were two things coming out of you. You feeling that, you know, that it was that whole story of his about that rainmaker of the guy. - Yeah, but I do this all the time in my life. You know, I've done it a lot this year. - We tell that really quick, because it's a good-- I'm obsessed, this is helpful to anybody, anybody ever anywhere. - It's very helpful. - It is. - Since you told me about it, I've circled back to it many a time in my head. - Yeah, yeah. - I really use this. And I think especially this year one, it's just such a gigantic chaos machine of 2026. (laughing) Everybody I know, not, you know, I mean. So, but basically his favorite story to the point where he would tell the students, they'd be like, am I told you the one about the rainmaker and the river laugh, but his Richard Wilhelm, who was the, you know, the guy who brought Chinese philosophy to the West period. He translated everything. He embedded himself in China in the early 1900s, what lived in rural China, if I dug up everything trans, the definitive translation of the Eaching is him. And so, he really was the guy who brought the East to the West. But he, so he was embedded with these, you know, these ancient Chinese society. It was like the most beautiful, you know, China. Maybe it was like the most beautiful civilization ever, actually, you know, like ancient China. But this is the 1900s and that's all still existed. But he, he was in a village. There was a drought. There had been a very long drought. And it was gonna be game over for the village. So, they went, they knew about a rainmaker, you know, somewhere in the vicinity. So, they went, got that guy out of his hut in some distant village, brought in. And he said, they said, we help us. And he came back with them to this village. And he said, I need a hut. And he sat in the hut for three days and on the third day, it snowed. And this is Wilhelm saying this. I know, I believe this, you know. And so, Wilhelm then went into the hut and said, how did you, how did you make it snow? And the guy was like, I didn't make it snow. He said, but when I left my village, I felt good. Everything felt good. And when I walked into this village, everything felt off. And so, I sat and still and meditated until everything felt good again inside me. And then the thing that naturally should happen happened. Right. And so, you know, Jung would say that that is a property of life. And that if you settle, you know, you want to try to create the mental and emotional environment where the right things happen. That things just ensue from a certain state. And so, I do that a lot. Like, you know, if I just am feeling like nothing is going, there's no order to the world. And everything is going in 30 different directions. I always know I have to settle myself. And it's not because we push. So, we have the, we have the instinct to push so hard against that stuff or to figure it out. Or how do I unlock this? And sometimes it's just, it's the exact opposite of that. Which brings me to touch quickly on the human design thing, only because I got, so somebody, it's not that well known, but it's based in astrology, which I still want to ask you about. And it combines a whole bunch of different systems. And it sounds shady. It was like some guy on Ibiza, like it came to him or whatever, but actually, because it's chakras, it uses the eaching, it uses the cobblistic tree of life. And very much your chart. And for me, it said, what am I to look up what I am again? But actually, Jen Aniston started to drop the name, gave me this once for my birthday. And I was like, what the fuck is human design? And it was super interesting. And then I had like a reading with this person. And then I, it's like a very complicated chart. You get and I took copious notes and I lost the thing. But now there are LLMs who can help you. But so I'm a generator type, which I think is like 70%. the people and so I'm essentially a responder like which I thought was so interesting because I always thought of myself as like because I can I have vision I thought oh I have to be the one like opening the doors and like you know turning vision into action but actually my power is in responding so even if I if I see something or I understand something and respond to it or if somebody else presents something to me then it's like I I can I can I can know what the right thing to do is you know I can but I'm not I thought it was really interesting to think about or kind of redefining that for myself because I always like I'm failing because I'm not taking initiative in this way you know but it's not my type according to the human science you know it's so interesting I mean see I think that's the perfect way to use this I don't I don't personally believe in all this in a literal way right you know I just think that they're helpful tools to get around your rational mind but that that's interesting to think what what would be the like I was doing this last night and looking at mine it was really interesting it's not a way I thought about myself at all like what was your what are your gotchas for that you know so mine are my key takeaways it takeaways are I'm built to respond not to initiate my energy works best when I wait for life to come to me and let my got respond rather than chasing and I'm always like it feels so you know authentic to me when I have to chase something or even like posting on Instagram when the team's like come on you gotta I'm like oh god you know like that like push into something I'm so allergic to the sacral is my engine and my compass satisfaction versus frustration so like frustration I could be easily frustrated and that's a sign that I'm sort of out of alignment or integrity like I'm not listening to my gut you know so I get frustrated when I haven't had the balls to like say what I mean right and I bridge through others so I naturally seek people and environments that bridge the gap like you yeah you bridge the gap for me you know yeah yeah and the watch out there is like don't over depend on others to feel whole but I need like that I need those connectors I need the people who can sort of give me interesting stuff to respond to and then I can move the ball like further down the field yeah no that's super interesting I know yeah that feels right and I don't I thought it was so cool like I have to digest I have a closed digestion so I have to digest in private intellectually yeah yeah yeah that's interesting so how do you use this well I'm just gonna you know I'm just getting back into it yeah I was reading it low I was like researching it last night but I think I think it's like a framework to help the I guess these things I'm drawn to them because it's so complicated being alive it's so confusing and it's like what is you know it's like a sit with someone who like Brad who's a total atheist and a total realist you know and then you know I'll sit with someone who's like a beautiful Christian and believes like so much in that and then like sit with a friend who loves astrology or like there's so many different approaches that they're encompass so many different things and I don't know maybe it's up to each of us to find like what the what's the framework that makes us that resonates most with us but like something like this I don't know that was a real unlock for me understanding that I'm not the person who's like supposed to bang the doors down and like that it makes sense that that feels so weird and also that I really need to be alone to recharge you know because sometimes people are like oh like because I'm I've always felt like a very introverted extrovert like I have to like sometimes I'm an extrovert but I need I need to recharge so much after something like that so I just think it's and it's good to give yourself grace and it's also good to push yourself where you know I don't know I feel nice super yeah it's helpful what did it say about you it said I was a manifesto yeah that the I could have told you that the gacha is workaholic ism and being overly independent and so sometimes yeah the people in your life don't feel brought along or involved and so yeah which did that ring true for you yeah yeah it's really interesting it kind of repackages a bunch of really cool things I it's complex it's very complex I think I think you do too and I I mean I'm glad I bought the $47 just a 200 page thing no I need I need like a coat is there like a person yeah there there there's a person who can do it I mean I yeah I want to do it again but but it's there's a one of this big tenants of it is astrology in your chart and this is like your thing so no I saw a lot of the concepts from astrology it's neat because it's pulling concepts from astrology in the e-ching and a bunch of other things into it yeah and so it's cool everything repackage yeah in a way that it's like I've never seen it pulled together like how do you use like what are the things that you use do you use I know you use astrology I use astrology I um but only again like I don't believe in it literally you know the the reason I got hooked on it I've actually always been kind of interested in it but I like what do you mean you don't believe in it literally well I I know I'm not like okay what's the transit of Jupiter should I you know do this thing on that day right right you know nor do I believe that the constellations and the stars are influencing our fate or destiny okay okay okay you know but I do believe that there's but because it's been this compound it's it's the these things are like the field of humanity they've been worked on for it's like yoga it's like how does this exist you know like it's been worked on and added to for thousands of years and it just has this understanding and wisdom and there's something about astrology and there's something just true about it the reason I got I read this I sent you this book a long time ago but I got obsessed with this book I bought it is just a coffee table book because I needed a blue you know it was like a decor piece and you're like a hedge run person it's like I need a blue painting on my wall no but I but I also you know was I was like oh this looks cool it's a book from like the 1900s about astrology I'm gonna you know it's actually am I actually what I don't know I didn't know that's how you got into it well I mean I've been I've had my chart read a million times but but I'd never not all astrologists are equal now I have two really good ones who I think are just like they have their 10,000 hours and they like they have such a front seat to people and they start to do all this pattern recognition of like okay that's how because it's complex it's like okay Saturn is a planet that causes great suffering and it is it throws obstacles in your way so we're that's always something that's like the first thing I look at if I'm looking at a friend's chart your Saturn isn't home we've talked about that like so what does that mean for me my home life is a disaster well no my childhood is really fucked up yes it means yeah there was insecurity in the childhood that will cause you for the rest of your wife one to it's property accumulation and that you compensate for an emotional feeling by buying homes me who but also you know how important that is to you you know but also it's so am I in the act of correct trying to correct that by yeah it's that it's your soul's work it's the soul's work and that was like astrology in the Indian sense is the soul's work it is the karmic cycles of okay this is everything you blew last time around in your past lives here's what you have to make up for this time you know it's giving you a map to how to get the most out of this life from a soul's journey perspective Western astrology is different it's more like these are the possibilities it's a map of your potential it's the like this one woman describes it as like the outside of the of a seed packet you know I mean this is what you could become right and if and and here's the lens of reincarnation because culturally we don't do that yeah but just through the lens of like this is kind of this is your blueprint how you play your cards is one thing but this is here for you so it emboldens people to live a bigger fuller life because they feel like oh that's right is that my main problem that Saturn's in my home well by the way and that's a dual meaning of home where it isn't just physical like or family or whatever but it's just establishing the security within yourself that maybe didn't have as a kid right right and and by the way this is just because I've researched your chart I couldn't look at someone else's chart and so like I just had to spend a lot of time with your chart I mean we happened to start working together at a time when I was first becoming obsessed with this and so you were my my victim yeah aside of myself but it's a very cool place to dev Saturn, because it's the grindstone for how it's the biggest obstacles to struggle, but it's how you grow. It's the thing that gets you to an evolved state. So when you have that security within yourself, you're not always trying to fill it up with other things. It's a very evolved thing too. So interesting. Because like, I definitely feel that I'm on that road, but sometimes like when I get knocked off my center, I definitely go back to a place internally that feels so wounded, raw. I don't even know how to disoriented and then it becomes my work again to create that safety for myself and align with myself in such a strong way, which is really the little, like the seven-year-old. Yeah. Right. That's it. I mean, that's so interesting. And so your chart would say, it also is like, so the two, the coolest things about them, I think, are where is Saturn and then what's the North South, South North node axis, which is where you're coming from and where you're going. And that's the one with you was creativity is where you're coming from. You came from obviously a very creative family and being seen publicly in things like that to leadership of the group and that you finding, like wellness, like your chart has a ton of wellness in it. Like you're, that would be the sixth house. You and I both actually have Venus in that house, which is, but you also have Leo in it, which makes you better at it. You're more, I want to be as disciplined as you are, but I'm not and you're way more punctual than I am. Like all your like things are your sixth house strength. You have Leo, which is strength and Venus, which is love, which is your, your, your health, your time management, all of that stuff is a huge strength of yours and you, you've get, if you didn't have that, you would probably totally fall apart psychologically, like that seems to be important. It's kind of scaffolding for you. But the, you're, so for anybody looking at their chart, they should immediately look at where is Saturn because that's going to be the defining struggle that is going to get me where I need to go. So interesting. I'm not, I've never understood that before. Okay. So that's the defining. And whatever house it's in, the house is more important than the sign. So the house, you're, you're in fourth house. And so that is family, okay, and home and I know, I mean, again, I don't love it though. Yeah, Sarah. No, I know. I mean, it's like that first essay that I read that got me into this was this like super Brahman Indian woman, educated in the West whose mom dragged her back to India to have her kid because you couldn't have that you had to name the child that you would take the exact time of birth. And like, you know, and so then she started to look back at astrology and she described it as like being afraid of a ghost that you don't believe in. You're like, I don't, that's how I feel about it. I don't believe in it. But there's something about it. But how do you not believe in it? You clearly believe in it. Well, no, I find it useful. Right. It's metaphorical. But isn't it only useful? I feel like believe in the construct. Otherwise. Well, it's useful and somehow true. So the metaphors of it, I mean, maybe if I had your chart, I'm like, it's so different than me and my chart. I don't want to see your chart. Give me the cliff notes. So my chart is intellect and communication. So I have two grand trines and it's very, very unusual to have two equilateral triangles and the points of all, both of those triangles are in air signs, which is insights and communication and eloquence. And for sure. Yeah. That's amazing. And what's your main struggle? Career. Career. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. Which is, like, it's a, it's a long game. My chart is a long game and that's certainly the, I mean, it's been, yeah, I guess, you know, it's like I, when I look back at the stories that you've told about the kind of path of your career and you also could have taken a completely different tact and done more creative stuff and like working in corporate, doing your own thing. How interesting. Yeah. No, it's been a nightmare. I wouldn't wish my worst enemy, but it has been, it's given me kind of the fodder, you know, to build this platform and talk to people, but I think it's very helpful to have someone like me have such a difficult path, you know, because it gives me a lot to share and talk about. And it's where I've developed all my frameworks about business. So, like, I just, I've had so many years of getting out of my own dumb way and like, yeah. So that, it rings really true to me and it also, my north south is coming from career. I've a lot going on in my career thing and then, but it goes to family, which is that, that to me is the arc of my life as I work so hard to create the stability and the self esteem and the self esteem of the family and the ability. You need resources to stay together as a family and that's the unfortunate fact of the modern world. Otherwise, it's this kids here, this kids there and nobody can bring them all together at the dude ranch. That was always my perception. So just the corrective, like, efforts of my life, like, really are to be successful, to model success for my kids and to restore the resource base to the family so that it can stay together. That's, that, it doesn't mean that it's true. It's my, my own perception and this is all an area where I know AI is like a very dirty word right now, but where these LLMs are so interesting and helpful if you, if you put in your birthplace in your birthtime, like you can have the most incredible astrological rating and you can get into dialogue with, with the machine about it. Yeah. And, and you know, I was doing that with it yesterday because I couldn't remember all your planets were, but I remembered that your moon was in Gemini and it told me the wrong thing. I was like, wait, isn't her moon? And it was like, oh wait, yeah, good catch. So just make sure. Right. I think, but I do think, I've had a lot of fun deep diving with LLMs long, yeah. Like just, it's cool with all this stuff. I don't know. I think like, of course, it's like, we have to deal with the environmental impact and all this looming, you know, uncertainty about what's going to happen. But as far as like being a woman and interested in personal development and health and wellness, like, I find it very, very enlightening and use, and useful tool in the, in those respects. It's like this incredible reflection and also thought partner and researcher, and, you know, for you, for my human and personal development, it's been a really interesting tool. I totally agree. Wait, so which of these do you, do you use, like numerology, like what are you using? Yes. So every year, I have a numerology reading, also my friend Amanda got me for my 50th birthday. So I had, yes, I've had three now. So every summer, I do a numerology reading with this woman Jeanine who lives in South Africa. Oh, you said her to me. Yes. And did he find it interesting? Yeah. I did. So I don't know, you know, it's like my friends sent me these things, and I'm like, because you would, you would think that I would be super into all this stuff, but I'm actually, I actually haven't been historically. Okay. But when I was sent the human design and the numerology person, but each is a 50th birthday present from two of my friends who are into the esoterics and into mediums and all that kind of thing, which I've never been that into, like I'm not drawn to it. Like sometimes a friend will be like, you have to talk to this psychic and I actually had one that was so uncanny that Brad is convinced she somehow, like, because I used, she didn't know my name or anything, and he's convinced that somehow she dialed it. Yeah, but it's impossible because then I did it with a friend and handed my friend my cell phone. So even if there was some reverse number search or whatever, she never would have known who she was talking to and it was like hair raising like this one. It was so weird. Well, it's not, it is possible. You know, it's that it's the horizontal fabric. It's anything is possible. Can I tell you the weirdest thing? So Laurel and Jackson, who I interviewed for our group Netflix show a million years ago, kind of on this subject, she, I had a reading with her before she worked on the show. And, you know, she, she knew all kinds of stuff like it was pretty bizarre. And we, you know, she was like, there's this number that you have with your dad. And when you see this number, it is him sending, like it is him sending you, you know, a message or his presence or whatever. And which is the number of ****. Okay. And it was sort of the mythology of the house like that **** had something to do with my dad. And so Laurel knew not the number, but she knew that there was, that there was this number associated and she was like, you know, you have to, you have to believe that this is your dad. He's really, you know, obviously, she really believes this, she's a psych medium. You have to really believe it when you see that that that he's there. And I see the number all the time. And it'll be weird things like I'll zoom with a kid who, you know, for an interview or, you know, to do a recommendation to a college or something who had **** on his sweatshirt. And I was like, what is that? You know, it'll just be like, or I'll look at the clock and it's like that kind of thing. But I'm like, is this real? Is this not real? Whatever. A couple of weeks ago, I went in. to Italy for the opening of the reopening of this beautiful hotel, the Vilassani Kale, it's outside of Florence. And obviously I love Italy, I love to travel. And I had the second to last dinner I ever had with my father was at this hotel. I didn't know he was dying. We were on this road trip for my 30th birthday, as you know. We're sitting there, it's this beautiful hotel, like overlooking Florence and, you know, his eyes kind of start rolling back in his head. And I'm like, this doesn't seem normally like I'm going to bed. Anyway, within 48 hours, he was dead. So I was invited to this reopening of this hotel. And I've been trying to, like, lean back a little bit into uncomfortable things instead of girding against them, bracing it, you know, because I feel like at this point in life, if something makes you uncomfortable or you have an aversion to it, that's just an opportunity for an exploration. And like, there's something there, right? There's just something there. So I'm like, wow, I wonder if this is going to be hard for me to go back to this hotel, because it was so visceral to me. And I have so many, like, you know, the memories of my dad and him saying, like, I feel better, my fever broke. Let's go to the Ufizi and all this kind of thing. So I arrive kind of late. My plane gets delayed in France and whatever. And I get to the hotel and it's late. And the manager's there. And I'm like, going up the hill and I'm like, oh, you know, I'm really feeling this, you know, and I'm like, feeling him so much. And I'm like, am I going to be okay? You know, I get to the hotel. The guy couldn't be nicer. He walks me to my hotel room. It's beautiful suite. And he's like, ah, okay. And here's your key. And he hands it to me. That is crazy into tears. Like, first into weeping. Like, it was the most nuts thing that has happened to me. I mean, I was like, speechless. It's poor guy. I was like, I'm so sorry. And I'm trying to explain on my a one of my last meals with my dad here, like sobbing. And so I'm like, is that how can that not be? How can that not be a sign? I feel like it is. I mean, I don't think you that's just unbelievable. I wish I'd known you were going through that by the way. But like that, that is unbelievable. Is that not so bizarre? And I think especially around death is a very open time in life that weird things like that happen, and specifically in relation to death. And like, no, that's insane. I know. So anyway, that was a very long, winded way of saying that, like, there are things like that that to me are inexplicable. And then there are things that are a bit more concrete, like the numerology framework, which is, I think also is based off the Chinese, some kind of traditional Chinese. Is it? It's from Pythagoras. It's based off of K. She knows it's from Pythagoras, guys. So I got it. Is it possibly it'd be pretentious while talking about numerology? It's why I just skated that way. I did it. So yeah, no, it has to do it. What does it have to do? You know, he was obviously a mathematician and believed in geometry. He was also an astrologist. But he. I want to see. That's interesting. Yeah, everybody, a Galileo, like all those gods, there was no difference between astronomy and astrology. But he thought that numbers one through nine were basically the basis of the entire structure of the universe that everything could be explained mathematically or geometrically, and that there was a vibration to each number that had certain properties to it. So in the numerology got reinvented like around 1900 or so. It got repackaged the same way that human design is kind of repackaging. It repackaged it in a way that it could be, it kind of moved into the kind of new age world. It wasn't like so. Here's your life path number. It wasn't packaged like that, but it was all the same concepts of like there's a certain vibration to each number. And that means this. And, you know, so now it's like, okay, here's your life path number, right? And there's some other concepts that I can't remember. Yours was a, what was your your life path? I think mine's a nine. You're a nine. Okay. Which is what? Nine is completion. That was your year. Oh yeah, that was my year. Let's see. I feel like you might have been a one. Yeah, it was. I'm going to ask you know who? It's your so full name. So what it does for the for anyone listening to just talk. Yeah, I do some research. Okay, guys. So it basically adds up the, it takes your full name. Yeah. And the number of letters adds those up. And then it takes your birth date and adds those up. And then splices it in different ways. And it comes out with some called your life path number. Right. Which is like who you are in the slide. It is a reincarnation thing. It's who you are in this life. And it is, you know, while it was repackaged in 1900 or whatever to kind of move into this new age thing, it is based on very ancient, you know, antiquity. Again, 500, 600 BC is when when Pythagoras, that's incredible. I know. I talk about LLM. I went on this deep dive on a play in the other day of like just time lining out the great errors of thought. And he like, okay, if who was Beethoven was here and these like what what was happening all at the same time, you know, just to because you're right. My life path number is one one, which is which is which is pioneer initiator, the leader. People with a life path one are typically described as independent driven ambitious and built for forging new paths rather than polishing following established ones. Yeah, that's pretty true. Yeah, quite true. What's your one? Mine is 33 slash six. What's your life number? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Which I didn't talk to her much about that because we were we were talking mostly about my mom, but it but it you're a master number and numerology. It's a teacher and it is this teacher. Yeah, spiritually demanding of the master numbers that tracks the six underneath this number of the nurturer caretaker caretaker and harmonizer. So interesting. The shadow side you're said to struggle with martyrdom. I didn't see that overgiving. I see that taking on others paying perfectionism around their purpose. Yeah. And collapsing under the weight of feeling responsible. Wow. It's a very rare number. You know, the woman had the same number, by the way. Oh, really? Yeah. That's strange. See, that's a weird coincidence. Well, or is it? But you know, when it was helpful, she said, you know, there are helpful things about that. I remember talking to you about it right after that. And it's that whole thing of which year you in. Right. Yours was endings. Mine. I wasn't when I went, I was like going into a big endings year, nine. Yeah. And and it was very, very, very true. Like there were there was a lot of completions. It was like I I sold my house. I lost two dogs like my kids went to college. Yeah. You know, I like moved away from certain people. You know, it was like there was a lot of good buys at year. It was kind of uncanny. But we all have a different year, right? Like I'm in it. My my personal year is a one. This year, which we started. Yeah. New beginnings. New beginnings. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I think this stuff is so helpful is that it again, it it like what that therapist did with the eaching. They're trying to. Okay, we're we're we have a blind spot or we're stuck or whatever. Like let's get out of the rational mind and think about this from another direction. And go stand on some other side of the room. And it helps you. I think there's just frameworks for introspection and like. So there is something worse, Jackie about it. Like, okay, I see myself in that. And I get it. And that's actually a really helpful way to think about it. Or maybe there is actually some, I don't know, there's just a lot of wisdom and these no matter what you believe, I think. So that's that's helpful, right? That was helpful. For me, it's yeah. For me, I really like the numerology. Yeah. Peace. Like I don't know. I find it orienting and I find it. I don't know. It's always a nice to just have even if it's bullshit, just to have like, you know, a companion in giving you context for things. You know, I don't know. I agree. But I kind of don't think it's bullshit. I don't think it's bullshit at all. I mean, think about how what else like if Pythagoras, he's like the father of geometry. Right. So it's not like he was a crackpot. No, many great names in antiquity were die-art astrologists. And what happened was that in the 17th century, Newtonian physics came along and codified, you know, a rule set around physical existence, like the law of gravity and things like that. And so astrology, that really is like the point in history where astrology got stigmatized and pushed to, okay, that's quack. Right. Right. But until then, the the evolved point of view was that there was this property of life that something has to fill in the gaps. You know, like there's a property of life that is more elusive and you know interconnected and I believe that. It's just shame that we sort of like that's what happened in the age of enlightenment right at all the rationality came. Yes. Yeah. And that in in the era before I was at the in romanticism or the past came right after. So it was the reaction. Before the enlightenment would have been I guess that was I think it went middle ages Renaissance enlightenment romanticism. Yeah. Renaissance yeah. Right. And that during that time there was still a very felt sense that like muses were real. Yeah. They were physical things and you know there was all of this kind of very stark binary way of thinking came in and then with the enlightenment right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Rationalism rationalism. I just think it's too narrow and I don't think it explains everything. I recently did this kind of cool wellness weekend with a friend of mine for her birthday and it was there was like it was kind of a workshop more than a wellness weekend. Okay. But but it was it was really it was interesting and and it was too therapists and these two women who run this workshop and they their approach was very manifestation oriented you know like get up and say a prayer and don't don't pray to the universe pray to your because the universe is too broad it's like too blunt of an instrument like you're like I even forget now what what you're supposed to pray to but this kind of absolute certainty around you know asking you shall receive like this this power of manifestation and you know you hear people like they have these mood boards that they looked at every day or these posters that they were on there while every day growing up and then you know so what do we what do we think about I mean I don't practice this which is probably a miss but what do you think about manifestation do you believe in it do you practice it I I do believe in it and I do practice it and I don't know why because rationally I don't believe in it and I don't yeah hang on to it like that I don't expect it but but I do think that I think that there's a power to the visual imagination I really do there's some strange power to the like we think we've talked about that how Einstein visualized the theory of relativity picturedness had and that's how we figured it out yeah you know like there's something about the visual imagination I think can problem solve and maybe it can create maybe it is that frontal edge of how does brain matter suddenly produce these primitive eyes you're gonna look at that and be like what and or how does something suddenly produce sexual organs so that it can reproduce there's something improvisational about this frontal edge of life and if there is I just think there is I don't know what it is or right and that maybe visualizing something has some ability to create what it you know what's ordering it off Amazon you know it's pointing your arrow at it I don't know or maybe it just puts you it it relaxes you so that things can flow better I do think it can just simply be a relaxation thing of like that's what my one of these astrologers she's this eight-year-old woman in England and dyke a beg is her name and she is like the problem she's been reading people's charts for years it's a form of therapy you know and she's like the biggest problem in the human race is lack of patience and people want to know what's going to happen right now they want to look around the corner they want to get what they're going to get they what you know they it's the lack of patience so maybe something about manifestation where you just visualize that you've already there or whatever it is you know it goes back to the rainmaker it's like internally if you find that wholeness and completeness then what's meant to come will come yeah that's sort of how I think but I don't think that they're I'm not as far as there is some connection between subjective thought and objective reality that you're so sad book that was it the secret or the the secret was that that was I think it's based off of a self-help book from like 1900 like it that those thoughts have been or even the 1800s those have been floating around for a long time right that's literally based on another book and she just kind of repackaged it and commercialized it but whatever it's it's helped so many people and um but yeah that's what that's all about but what is the what is the theory around how that works well I mean this is where like I think like a Joe despensa or like there are certain people who will say the quantum physics and the observer effect and things like that are that there's a physical property that translates subjective thought to objective reality that you can make your own reality like what's the mechanism by which that would work um well what they would say so things like the many worlds possibility the the observer effect that if you look at it and you feel it you you create that is the part of all the possibilities that could happen right yeah it doesn't sound that far fetched actually like when you write I think it it um it's been such a key tool for so many whether it's Oprah or Jim Kerri or Alan Schwarzenegger whoever like it's a key tool for so many successful people and Jim Kerri does manifestation well he wrote himself a 10 million dollar check Oprah there's a big Oprah episode about this so he wrote himself like a 10 million dollar check put it in his wallet when he was like a broke starving guy you know sleeping this car and like if something like the date of the check was he got a 10 million dollar movie did I don't know like he attributes that to happen yeah on the date I don't think that exactly I don't remember but it's something like that where there was some uncanny like to the day type thing as part of what I do when I meditate I will visualize very happy outcomes especially when I'm feeling totally like I'm about to detonate you know and frazzled so yeah I mean I do think that any any tool we have for pulling like reminding ourselves remembering to pull back out of the the day-to-day minutia that has our nervous system so jacked and to think about things in a much more broad way is helpful yeah why would you not I think life is hard and I think that there's a lot of chaos on the surface of life and life is hard yeah you know no matter what it is hard it just is I think for everybody there are different permutations of it but it is I think it's reassuring and helpful to think that there's some arc that you know you can kind of poke your hat up a little bit and think more broadly or that there's something they're helping and supporting you it's nice I think so too okay so which one of these things are you gonna what has peaked your interest like what are you gonna look more into well I'm gonna find a human interest coach maybe you can oh yes human design human design yeah human design I have just the person great I want to do it again too yeah we'll check back in on that okay we will Emily thank you thank you for being here so much fun I always learned so much from you same as your whatever in the whatever house says you're an excellent teacher and communicator well you're excellent at taking things into culture and leading us so thank you thanks for tuning in this has been a presentation of cadence 13 studios I hope you'll listen follow rate and review all of our episodes which are available for free on apple podcasts Spotify Odyssey or wherever you get your podcasts the goo holiday gift guides are our calling card we scour the earth for the best options in every category to make it easy for you to find the right gifts for everyone on your list think beautiful jewelry thoughtful wellness tools smart kitchenware clean beauty and more unexpected finds whether you're looking for a little luxury or a big splurge you'll find something that feels personal in our curation explore the gift guide at goop.com and as our gift to you take 15% off your first 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