Escaping Polygamy and Starting Over ft. Ashley Sandmire

Things that I wish that I knew when my husband and I left the polygamous religion we were born and raised in. I thought that I was going to have to share him and have sister wives. We were told to lie about it. I've had the most bizarre crazy shit happen. My brother took his life a little over eight years ago. This has got to stop. Your story is so fascinating. You have gone through so much. Tell me about your childhood. My dad had 46 kids. He was abusive in every way. It was always taught. You do what the man says and you will obey. The brainwashing and the toll that it takes, that's scary. I got married at 18. Who the hell let me do that? He was like, I don't know if I want multiple wives. I would be like, am I enough? When I gave birth to my daughter, me and my husband were like, she can't live like that. Is your story going to be something you're going to be just very honest about? What is even appropriate to tell a seven-year-old? Do you ever get scared that you left the church? There's a lot of fear. I know that there are people living that way. There are people living that way that don't want to, and they don't know how to get out. What do you want people to take away? I felt bitter and angry because of the way that I grew up, but you can't live life like that. Get up, get the fuck out, and leave. So, Ashley, thank you for being here on Chloe in Wonderland. You did, I think it was a podcast for someone else, and I saw it on TikTok. And you were talking about your story and all that you've been through. And your story is so fascinating, but something that really drew me to you is you have so much grace and compassion for all the players in your life. And from what I saw, you didn't come from this place of this victim stance. You came from a place of really wanting to educate and inform and talk about your journey. It's really a beautiful way to position life and to position all that you've gone through. And I really was so enamored by you and your energy and all that. And so I really wanted you to come on, and I'm so grateful that you did. That's so cool. I appreciate that. I feel so honored to share my story with you. I'm like such a vibey person, and I just feel like, just like a calm vibe about you. Yeah. Oh, good. I've shared it before, but I feel like it's always nerve-wracking the first time. And so I feel like I feel more comfortable to just share more and be more vulnerable. Oh, well, I feel— I feel so honored that you're on. I really do. And I know you flew in from Utah today, so thank you for doing that. So first, I wanted you to tell me, tell the viewers, the listeners, about your childhood and who you are, the type of family that you were born into, because I don't know if a lot of people know about your history. I grew up in a very broken version of polygamy growing up. So my dad had six wives at one point, but my family split up when I was two years old. And I like to say that I grew up in like a divorced home, like to the next level because, yeah, there's just so many adults involved. And my mom chose to stay with my dad, whereas the other wives left. And I feel like that also like added a lot into my life and maybe more trauma because my mom chose to stay. So what was your living situation like? So your dad had six wives. Were the six wives, you guys all have different, like one wife, like your mom and your siblings would be in one home and then every wife in their own? Yeah, so before my family split up, they actually all lived in trailers, in like a trailer court. And no, he didn't. No AC, like they were just scraping by. And that's, it's just like for every family so different, but that's how it was for mine. Like everybody had their own trailer. But then when my family split up, we moved to like a little town called Lehigh in Utah until I was about five. And then my dad wanted to start like his own like community of the religion down a little bit south in Utah. Okay. In a little town called Mayfield. It never ended up really happening. Like a few people moved down there, but I lived there like up until I moved out at 17. You guys were raised, is it FLDS? So I think that's like the most common one that people know is FLDS and that's like Warren Jeffs. So I grew up in the AUB. I don't know if you've heard of the show Sister Wives. Yes. So the Browns, I grew up in the same religion as them. And in that religion, AUB. Is polygamy taught? Yeah. It's very like you need to live this way. That's like the main purpose of living that religion is to have multiple wives or live plural marriage is what they call it. Because that gets you to eternal heaven. I was watching the documentary that you suggested. Keep Sweet, Pray Obey. Keep Sweet. So that's the Warren Jeffs one. So I watched that. Man, that was hard to watch. I actually didn't finish the end because I was like, this is gross. I can't handle this. Especially when you have kids. Oh, I know. Like everything hits different when you're a mom. Everything. Everything. Everything. So it was hard. And then, of course, then I'm like, I'm very empathetic. I was like, oh, then I'm thinking about you and like what any of this is something that correlated with your life. It was a lot. So in the documentary, it's saying about the more wives you have, the more you're going to get into heaven. But it's all about the male perspective. Yeah. And then someone's. I was interviewed another gentleman and they're like, so the producer was like, OK, you keep talking about the men. Where do the women go when they go to heaven? And it's just like constant laughter. And they're like, oh, we don't really know. Like it's the women are not held in any high regard from what I gathered. Yeah. Is that how you felt when you were in that religion? Yeah. I feel like everybody's experience can be different. But for me personally, growing up. I do feel like it was very much like you do it. The man says he's the head of the house and you will obey. And so I guess growing up, I was exposed to a lot of things like I would say. Warren Jeff's polygamy was like the FLDS is a lot like more intense than the one that I grew up in. I would say mine is one of the quote unquote better ones to grow up in for sure. But I feel like it also depends on. Like the family that you were raised in. And for me, we were like, maybe we didn't have Warren Jeff's, but we still had pedophiles that were always allowed to be at our house. And they know that they're creeps. Why are they always at our house every day hitting on us? All these inappropriate things. And it was always just taught like it doesn't matter. Like you don't really get a choice. And as a woman. And that always like bugged me. But it was like hard in that sense of like finding your voice and also being told you don't really have one. Right. And it sounds like your mom, I imagine she got married young. Very young. And it sounds and I have no idea, but a little bit of your story. I would imagine maybe your mom was sort of groomed or put into this position herself. Yeah, I, I think that. She was, she was 17. Yeah. And my dad is 24 years older than her. So she was 17 and he was like 40 years old. And I think as I've become a mom, it's just like making me realize even more how messed up some things are. And she didn't really get a say. Like it was just like, well, this guy's interested in me and what they do is courting. And so he asked about her to her dad. Mm-hmm. And then her dad said, yeah, you can date her. And some dads are like awesome. And they're like, no, she's not interested. You can't date. Some are like, no, you have to give it a shot. And that's how my mom's dad was. That's how my dad was. And so. Your dad would say yes on your behalf. Yeah. And just like tell my sisters like, well, you have to give him a shot. My sister had to date this. Like way older man. And she was like so creeped out by him and was just like, no, I don't want to. But my dad made her and he like came to our house. We had dinner with him. And that's kind of like how the courting starts is like you get to know them and start dating them. And sometimes they have multiple wives. So then you get to know the other wives. And this guy didn't have other wives yet. But my sister was young. She was probably 17, 18. And I just remember it being so uncomfortable. And I was younger. Because I'm like five years younger than her. And I was just like, what is going on? Yeah. And that's traumatizing in and of itself. Just being a witness to that. You have such compassion and grace for people, especially the ones that maybe put you in the line of fire at times. And it says so much about your integrity and character of a person. But I would fight if it were me. Like, OK, I love and respect my mom. And I also have empathy because her parents didn't. They didn't protect her. So she knows no better. Yeah. But then you're also like, but you should know better. But that's not OK. Yes. Because I feel that. Exactly what you're saying. I would be torn. into two ways and so when I was researching your story I was like oh like you want to be like why did you do that to me but then you're like but someone did that to you so I get it yeah and then I'm sure you know at this point or when she was 17 for until she had all 12 of you guys probably the brainwashing that was happening to her young mind like it's 17 is so little so little I know we feel so grown at 17 but we're not I know you feel grown at 17 yes I got married at 18 and I'm like who the hell let me do that totally I got married at 24 and I question all this I'm always like 24 I mean I it was amazing but I'm like that is a baby a baby yes but I can't understand maybe the two angels you have on your shoulder like because you also want to be entitled to your feelings about like why did you do that to me why did you do that to me why did you do that to me like to be that little girl like mommy I want help protect me but then you're also oh yeah sort of wanting to be a mother I still go through this right now because being a mother myself I'm like but how could you because I grew up the same way and I was like no this isn't okay right and I was able to like work through that and be like no find my voice I don't like this this isn't okay and it was becoming a mom that made me leave that helped me leave because when I gave birth to my daughter me and my I'm gonna get emotional oh that was just like the change for me because me and my husband were like she can't live like that that's not the life that we want for her and we don't we want her to be loved and protected and cared for because that's what she deserves and so then like I have that dug and pull with my mom because I'm like the second I became a mother I was like no this isn't okay but then I still have that compassion where I'm like I'm not going to be a mother I'm not going to be a mother I'm not well crap you didn't even get a chance right you were so young got married so young just kept popping babies out every two years and also having that many kids too the postpartum the way that we feel about ourselves and sometimes messes with yeah it does and we do become sometimes weaker emotionally or like what we're like we don't feel like we have the strength to do certain things sometimes I feel bad because your mom is still a person too like sometimes we put our parents on these pedestals first time living too yeah yeah and that many kids it does affect you and not only that but like I had other siblings coming to our house all the time she was having to mother them too and anytime some of my older siblings were like lashing out having struggles they would send them to our house and then we would deal with the repercussions of my brothers in these crazy phases of their life yeah on top of like just my just my mom not being able to emotionally be there have you ever left a doctor's appointment with results in hand but still no real understanding of what they actually mean 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inside your body instead of leaving you with more questions if eligible you get access to a doctor-developed action plan based on your results with diet and lifestyle guidance to help you move towards your goals so you're not just handed information you're supported through what comes next hers also offers personalized treatment plans for heart health menopause and so much more it's a new level of clarity one that gives data-backed confidence to make informed health decisions so feeling like yourself again doesn't feel so far away if you want clearer insight into your health go to for hers.com and schedule your labs today that's f-o-r-h-e-r-s.com for hers.com so you grew up aub religion and being in a polygamous family do you go to a regular school yeah um not everybody does but i did we live far away from any of the like the other communities like i said my dad tried to start one didn't happen and so i went to the public school that was just 10 minutes away from me and i'm grateful for that in ways because i feel like at first it was hard because in elementary school it's fun middle school kids get mean and i grew up in a small town so everybody knows everything about everybody and i would get made fun of for being a polygamist and i didn't really feel like i had anywhere to turn to because anytime i would come to my parents they wouldn't hear me and so that was a tough time in my life but then high school got better and i was on the soccer team and i was on the football team and i loved it and that's kind of what kept me in school because i was not like i did not love school i didn't love to do homework or learn or do any of those things but i loved sports and i loved making friends it's probably a good outlet for you yeah for sure do you think going to a regular school because i know some of the i wasn't mormon is the religion's mormon no kind of people get it's so confusing because so like the lds church they don't really like being called mormons anymore because i think like years and years ago they used to practice polygamy and then one day there was this thing called the mormon manifesto and the president of the church wilford woodruff was like we're no longer practicing polygamy so they haven't done that for a very long time but then when that happened there were tons of breakoffs of different polygamist religions and the one that i grew up in the aub is just one of those many breakoffs understood the flds warren jeff's one of the many breakoffs understood and they all believe just slightly different things and some of them are just a lot more crazy than the others a lot of the ones that have their own like compounds if you will it seems like they funnel in specific education so a lot of kids aren't even exposed to what could be happening in their lives like they think this is so normal so i wonder if like you were saying but i knew this was wrong i knew i didn't like this i also wonder if that's because you went to a public school and maybe got a little exposure to what was really happening yeah well i'm like just an observer i feel like i learned from observing other people and i would notice my friends lives and their families and be like this is kind of weird like it's different and like i would go and hang out at my best friend's house for months and my parents wouldn't even like ask where i was and i'm like this is kind of weird like my friends parents are always like calling them and texting them like all the time right my parents don't even care where i am so that's interesting because i always felt like in those religions it was and maybe this is just my ignorance like it was a little more cult like or like they wanted to keep eyes on you guys more because no one wanted to be exposed right i really think that it depends on the family okay that you're in i really think my mom was just like i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know so checked out with so many kids and a lot my dad was just doing whatever the crap he was doing and i was just doing whatever i was doing but do you maybe in hindsight appreciate that that you had a little more freedom because maybe you didn't have to go through because you're part of the youngest yes right out of the 12 because my dad had 46 kids give or take merry christmas merry christmas to us no like sometimes we didn't even know if we'd get christmas that's crazy yeah i think i was like number 38 i'm like one of the youngest okay of them because i was two in my family split up my mom was pregnant with my brother just below me and then my mom stayed with my dad and had a few more kids with them so yeah a lot of kids yeah are you close with all your 12 siblings no it's like hard yeah i i'm close with a few of them probably about half but i think it's hard because some of them are still in and i don't i don't care if you're like i know so many people that still live that way and they're like really good people and they're just trying their best and they truly believe that they're doing what is right right but sometimes it does cause that divide like if you choose to leave then people are kind of like well you're a bad example i don't really want to hang around you no i get but a good portion of my mom's kids have left and your mom is still she's stayed in the religion so she just recently left wow like within this last year wow so she like started going to therapy and that's also major i know because growing up like therapy mental health all of that was so stigmatized you just sweep it under the rug i think that my mom probably dealt with postpartum depression mental health issues and she never even knew that she did right because you don't talk about it and you just pretend like you're okay your mother leaving has that made you want to have a stronger relationship with her i think i think i've always had that want kind of because she's my mom and like i long for that mother bond that i've never really had since i was like little little i see growth happening with her and like she's leaving my dad he's he's abusive and very toxic and she's finally leaving him and she's been going to therapy and that's been helping her she did recently realize like oh i have like i was groomed and i you never really did get to have a voice or find out who i was before i had a million kids and i once again i have so much grace and compassion with her but she still has a lot more to go oh this is so heartbreaking that's actually really no i it's hard but i'm like so thankful for my kids because even though i don't have a close relationship with my mom at least i get to be the mom that i always wish that i have and i'm so thankful for my kids because even though i don't have a close relationship and not saying that i'm a perfect mom but i do think that i do a really good job and i just spend so much time with my kids making sure that they feel heard and seen and loved and i just feel like that's something that i never got as a kid speaking of that what was your emotional support as a kid like who would you turn to if you needed what the normal parental would do for you i feel like sometimes i would turn to friends when your friends are so young too it's kind of like yeah they don't realize the depth of maybe what you're going through and then also like siblings but then like they're going through their own shit you know and i have my mom's oldest daughter camilla i to this day call her mama cam because i would go to her for a lot of stuff yeah kind of having some type of mother figure because she would like let me sleep over there whenever i needed and vent to her if i needed to or buy me underwear and i would go to her if i needed it for your dad was he prominent in your life or was he sort of just doing his own thing and it was more the mom's he was kind of back and forth because he ended up getting a job that was two hours up north away from us so he'd be gone all week and then come home on the weekends and sometimes we'd see him like we'd go and visit him but he didn't parent us at all it was more of like the religious stuff like i want you to do this i expect you to be like this but i don't but it was never like parenting i guess it's so interesting that even if your dad was gone so much that your mom still felt like such a need to stay i know and that's what's like so hard when you are born and raised into something you're brainwashed into believing that this is the way and there's a lot of fear right if you don't live this way you won't be with your loved ones when you die and you won't have that eternal family and you won't get to be with your kids and you and your husband when you die that's scary yeah that's a terrifying feeling and that's why i almost lived that way because i was like so scared yeah about not being able to be with my loved ones when i die how did you meet your husband he grew up in the same polygamist religion he did so when i was 16 my 14 year old brother took his life i'm so sorry and yeah that was so crazy and such a hard time in my life and my husband paul 12 days after my brother took his life my husband paul's brother died in a tragic construction accident oh my gosh and so paul and i like knew each other because we grew up in the same religion but after we lost our brothers so close to each other right we like started reaching out to each other started confiding in each other and trauma we were both close to our brothers so it was like it was like it was just nice to be able to talk to someone who understood it even though they died in different ways they were both very tragic so when paul and i met each other we were going to church together we were going to live polygamy we would talk about getting sister wives and it always made me feel a little like i don't want to share you i don't want to share you when i started like feeling love for him i was like i have to share you with other women like this sucks right but we were just going to do it because of the pressure and i think that we wanted to leave for a while after having my daughter that gave us the like strength to be like i'm not gonna let this control me anymore and hover over me anymore i need to do this for my daughter she deserves a better life and sometimes it just takes something like that to help you make the step that you need in life so you guys got married had your baby and then together were just honest and brave and enough to say i want to leave this religion yeah and is that something you do like in the darkness of night or do you leave like you're honest with everyone or do you sort of have to run away for paul and i specifically we didn't have to escape or like we weren't shut out by our families because we chose not to live that way like they're still in our lives just this slow gradual process of like not going anymore and then they're like why aren't you going to church anymore what are you doing and i'm like i'm not going to church anymore i'm not going to church anymore i'm not going to and then we finally had to be like honest about it but that was hard for me it was like i'm not super close with my parents so it's kind of like whatever i'm gonna do my thing it almost made it easier but for paul like he didn't want to disappoint his loved ones too and so it was like this process of i think that's the hardest thing about like sometimes when you make decisions for yourself it might disappoint people that you love and care about but that doesn't mean that it's the wrong decision no it doesn't and you're so strong for breaking that generational cycle and for doing that and doing it for your children i mean the way they're gonna feel when they're older and you get to tell them your story is your story going to be something that you're going to be just very honest about with your kids yeah i'm just an honest person like i feel like that causes more issues with your relationships with your children right than anything if you're just an honest person if you're not honest with them and i think that honesty comes at different levels on their age yes like my oldest is seven she doesn't even understand the life that i grew up in and it hasn't even clicked to her how crazy it is because well they don't know well and also like anytime we are around family that still lives that way the husband isn't ever present right like they just see their aunties or whatever and so they she doesn't realize he's married to five women six women but she doesn't realize that she's married to five women and she doesn't realize that she's with my brother taking his life she's already asked questions about that and i'm like how do you tell seven-year-old yeah what do you say in that situation so because did she meet him so right she never met right because i was 16 when he passed so my brother was 14 i was 16 and then i had her i was pregnant with her at 19 had her at 20 years old and so i was a baby having a baby and it's crazy because i feel like my kids have just been growing up with me and my husband has just been we're just like growing up together maybe he comes to her yeah oh he has that's the crazy thing okay i believe in all that so no i'm telling you he has because one time i because i'll like post about my brother and try and like spread mental health awareness and suicide awareness because it's not talked about enough especially in children my brother was a child right and i had this post that i was posting and she was three years old and she was like oh mom i was playing with him outside oh and i was like are you sure like i thought maybe she's confusing him with my other brother that's six years younger than me okay but my brother the past was only two years younger than me and i was like oh you mean like uncle caleb and i like show her a picture of him she's and he kept sticking his tongue out at me like this and that is what like rung true to me because that's what my brother am and would do all the time oh and he has that so many selfies of him sticking his tongue out like that so the second she told me that i had chills through my body i was like okay i believe you what the heck oh i believe that and you know spirits and angels they come to children because they're the most innocent and like their guard is down and i think sometimes adults get freaked out but i believe that you have to hold on to that story forever oh i know i have to it was so special and it's crazy because like i still will feel my brother sometimes but i actually haven't felt him in a while but when i was at the airport i like felt him oh i like got these chills and i was like he's with me he is with you and the more you talk to him and all that he'll show up for you and all of that yeah do you think your religion had anything to do with him having such mental health i don't know i I've been asked that before, and it's hard to say because he never specifically told me that, but he would tell me, like, I don't feel like this is right. Like, do you really want to have, like, multiple sister wives? Like, he would ask me that, and I'd be like, I don't know. So he would question it, like, a lot and be like, this just doesn't feel right. I don't think that this is right. I don't want to live that way. And I don't think that that was necessarily why, but I do think that we grew up with a lot of, oh, my, the trauma goes so deep. It's like, that's just like a whole, so much, so much story to tell. So I'm sure that there was so much going on in his life that even I didn't know about because him and I were close. And when he took his life, I seriously was so clueless. I was like, what? Like, how did this even happen? But when something like that happens, who do you go? Because that is beyond, the word trauma seems so empty for something like that. Like, I couldn't imagine that happening in my life. And then I couldn't imagine that and then not having a mom or a dad to turn to and be consoled and loved through that time. Like, what do you do? Who do you go to? I think I just, I clung to my siblings, my husband, and TikTok. Yeah, no, but it's like. Sharing my story on TikTok, finding other people that have been through it too, you know, through other situations. And also, like, I just feel like losing him was probably, if not the most painful thing I've ever gone through in my life. And after he passed, I truly believe that it was my fault. And that's something that can be super common when you lose someone to suicide is believing that it's your fault. And that really messed with me for a while. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why do you think that or why you thought that? I think that I just was like, I should have known. Like, I should have saw the signs. I should have known and I should have stopped this from happening. And also, this weird thing happened that I, like, will always remember for some reason. But, like, a month before he had passed, we were, me, him, and my dad were driving in the car. And I had this, like, super, like, strong thought in my brain, like, Ammon's going to kill himself. And I was like, ew. Like, I, like, pushed it out of my head. Because I was like, that is a gross thought. Like, why would I think that? Right. And we grew up, like, dreams, thoughts that we have, like, all of those have meaning to them. And they carry a lot of meaning. And so then I feel like I really took that to heart and was like, this was God trying to tell me. And I didn't listen. And now he's gone. And I was 16. Right. Like, I did not realize even how young I was when I was going through such a loss in my life. But I was able to work through it. Right. And I was able to work through it. And I, you know, I was pretty suicidal. And my husband, when I was dating him, he, one night when we were together, just randomly decided to tell me how much I meant to him, how much my life meant, and how I brighten people's lives around me. And something with what he said clicked to me. And I was like, you know, like, I do matter. People do care about me. And I do need to hang on. And I think that people forget how. And I think that people forget how much little things like that really do matter. Like, reaching out to people when they're struggling, doing acts of kindness when someone is struggling. And that's something that's helped me with the grief of losing my brother is doing acts of kindness for people. And I'll do, like, his blue was his favorite color. And so I'll do random acts of blue. And I'll just give them to strangers or I'll give them to someone that I know is struggling. And things like that help me feel close to him and like he's with me. So. You'll always keep his memory alive when you do anything in thought of him. I would think if I. Because I have trust issues. I feel that. I'm just wondering, like, do you question, like, is your husband. Like, I would be like, am I enough? Because all these men saw were like, I need to have five wives. I need to have seven wives, whatever it is. Would you yourself question, like, is this, like, entertaining enough? Is this fulfilling enough? I totally see where you're coming from. I think something that helped me not ever feel that way with him was even when we were dating, I think the reason why I felt comfort in even staying with him was because, like, part of me didn't really want to live that way. But I didn't really know, like, maybe didn't have the strength to just be like, I don't want to live this way. Now where do I go? Who's going to want me? Right. Right. But he, we had a conversation and he was like, I don't know how I feel about the plural marriage. Like, I don't know if I want multiple wives. And we both were just like, well, we kind of have to. Like, this is what we have to do. So sad. And so we would have those conversations. And looking back, I'm like, we were so young to be having those conversations. But I think him being on the same page as me and him vocalizing that to me before I vocalized it to him, I was like, okay, this, like, made me have some trust in him. Right. And I was like, okay, you're not just wanting to get, like, a million wives. You're just wanting to get them because we have to. Right. Not because you, like, want all these wives. So I think that that helped for sure. I think it's so special that you guys came from similar upbringings because I think you guys can relate. And obviously you guys have your trauma bonding from all the stuff you've been through. But you guys are on such parallel journeys. I think it's so much easier to get out together and how you said you and your husband are growing together. I mean, that's really what marriage is. You're going to have your ups and your downs. But as long as you both don't stay stagnant, like, you guys want to be. We change together. Yes. Because we're all going to change, especially being so young. We are completely different people. Yes. Than we were when we first got married. Yes. It's like jump scare. Yeah. It's truly a jump scare. The beauty is it's together. You have three kids. What kids do you have? Boys, girls? I have a daughter, Brooklyn, and then a son, Cashton, and then another son, Chapman. Thank you. And they're all, like, three years old. Three years apart. So cute. Yeah. I have a seven-year-old daughter and a three-year-old son. So, like, the same ages. It's the best. Do you want to have more kids? I would only have one more if I were to have more kids because I just want to be able to mentally, financially, all the things, be able to be there for my kids. So I don't know. Like, my daughter's like, I need a sister. And I'm like, I can't guarantee that. And I'm sorry. And it's like, I know what it was like to grow up with having sisters, and I have sisters that I am close to. And so I'm like, I'm sorry that you might not get that. But she has cousins, right? I have four sisters and one brother, and I wish I could give my daughter, True, a sister because I love my relationship. Having a sister, the relationship is so special. It's so special. Like, it's the best, but I'm also, I don't know if I have the bandwidth for a third, and I'm also not married, and I want to be married to have more kids. Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know. But we have cousins, and they're close like sisters. Yeah. So I'm like, we're all good. That's how I feel. She has a cousin that she's so close to, and they see each other every week, and they're the same age. And I'm like, you have her. Yeah, we have to tell ourselves. You at least have her. That's enough. When you had kids, do you think it gave, I know it gave you strength to leave your religion, but do you think it gave you understanding or more compassion for your mother? I think at first. I was just very angry at her, honestly, if I'm being real. Yeah. I had my kids, and I was like, what the hell? Right. Do you even love me? Sometimes I still question it. I'm like, I know what a mother's love feels like, and so it's hard for me to see it any other way. It's just like, you love your kid. This is what you do. Have you ever had these conversations with her? She can't handle it. So I think going to therapy, this is like something my mom has always done, and I think she's becoming aware that she does it. And now she's learning how to not do it. But any time, any time when we were kids, we would tell her the most bizarre thing that happened to us, and she'd be like, oh, and not say a word. That was it. Zone it out. Block it out. Not talk about it. Never bring it up again. And she just shuts down. Wow. Completely shuts down when she's uncomfortable. And I honestly think that's part of what has made us not have the greatest relationship. I'm such an honest, upfront person, and I will tell you how it is. I'll tell you in a nice way. Right. Maybe when I was younger, I wasn't nice. Right. As I've grown up and matured a little bit, like, I'll tell you in a nice way, but I'm going to be real with you. And I just don't think that she has been able to handle that. But I do see her getting there, maybe. Like, if she continues to go to therapy and she has started to become aware that she shuts down, I just think that it is going to be the longest process. And maybe, like, we would have to go to therapy together. Honestly. That might be smart. I don't know if she could handle it right away. That's what I'm saying. I don't think she's there yet. I mean, it sounds. Or maybe never will be. And I don't know. And I have that expectation that it just might not ever happen. And it is what it is. I think we have to realize how hard it is to change ourselves. Yeah. And how much effort and work it takes to change something about ourselves. And you normally only change it if you find there to be a problem with it. Yeah. If other people say it, you're like, whatever. That's your problem, not mine. You almost become defensive or like, whatever. Yeah. I'm going to be me. Like, I'm going to be more like that because you're telling me not to be. Yeah. So I think I just have to. not have expectations because that is what causes the hurt yes I used to have expectations and I would be hurt all the time yeah so now it's just like if she ends up healing more going to therapy more and she wants to have those conversations I'm so ready yeah it's so weird because like she hasn't really been there in my life my kids barely know who she is and recently because she's been going to therapy like they've seen her a couple of times this last year and it was so sad because they're like who is that I'm like it's your grandma yes that's my mom yeah and I think she's kind of expressed that maybe she wants to be more in our lives that's but it's like and I I think it is sweet I just think that it's very complex right and it's not like I don't know well I also like have that mother in me that's like are you gonna stay are you gonna continue to grow because like I can't have close relationships I my kids can't have close relationships with people like that you know well I was gonna say when you see her does she activate or trigger something in you that I'm imagining she reminds you of a lot of dark times in your life yeah for sure so maybe it's healthier for you that sadly she's not and I think it's just like I don't feel that like mother bond with her because I haven't for a long time so when I am with her it just feels weird right it doesn't I guess because like I know what it feels like when I'm with my kids and how my kids feel when they're with me and I just don't feel like that's there's like some sort of like disconnect I guess I honestly feel like your mom especially with how you're saying if you told her something crazy and she just like ignores it yeah it sounds like your mom had probably a really fucked up childhood yeah and she was probably for a lack of a better word like trained or conditioned you can't have an opinion you can't have a voice and I don't want you to really even comment on anything that you're seeing and then she married a man that continued to treat her that way so sad I know I truly have so much compassion for her I really do no and I I love you for that too but I also have so much respect for you that you're taking care of you yes but it's mainly for your kids it just shows that I love them that's what I'm saying I'm like isn't this just what moms do but if she never felt that or had that herself she doesn't know that's what moms do I know but that's what's so crazy I didn't have that either you're right yeah and that's the tug and pull do you have any communication with your dad no none for how long I think the last time I talked to him was a year or so ago but no I do not have a relationship with him nor do I care to honestly like he was abusive in every way to his kids to his wife and he fought in Vietnam and got terrible PTSD from it but he wanted to do it like that's that's what's actually crazy and maybe I just talk about this I guess but one of the last times I talked to him he I asked him like I had read this book about Vietnam and I was like wow I didn't realize the stuff that you went through and I'm trying to like you know I was trying to have compassion for him even though he's just not a good person and I was like I don't know I don't and I was you know trying to talk with him about it and just like see his perspective of it and it just left me feeling more icky I was like oh okay I really don't want a relationship with you I read a book it was called the women and I told him I'm like yeah I read this book called the women and he's like you want to know how many women I was with in Nam you want to know if you have Nam siblings I'm like so are you telling me I have Nam siblings right that's right so I'm like yeah I have 45 siblings maybe like maybe many more could you have I don't know he's a very fertile man yeah yeah yeah that's crazy and he just I don't know the whole conversation I felt so icky and I realized I don't have any more I don't feel compassion for you you're just not a good person well he doesn't seem like he has compassion for you either no like how he's telling you these things he's just like yeah here no so I get why you wouldn't yeah whereas with my mom it's like I don't think she's I don't think she's a terrible person I don't I think that she just like like we've talked about all the things of the way that she grew up and things like that whereas with him I'm like you're just a bad person yeah and that just is what it is yeah did you get to have traditions as a kid like did you guys celebrate holidays or yeah you did we did so there was still that like family aspect yeah okay I think that was honestly like probably my best times as a childhood was the holidays because a lot of times some of my siblings would come and visit and I'd always be so happy if I got to see my siblings that in itself was magical it was like already like oh this is special because I get to be with my other siblings right and I don't know there's just something magical about holidays so yes yeah we did celebrate Christmas and Easter but I mean we were never taught about the Easter bunny or anything it was just like we're gonna go hide eggs and whatever social media is sort of therapy for you yeah do you get any heat for talking about the church I mean yeah I've gotten a little bit of heat for it I think the main thing is is I think it's just so uncomfortable for people because growing up we were told that you don't talk about this got it and when my siblings would come to my school like sometimes a sibling would come live with us for a little bit if they were having issues or whatever or my friends would come over and I had siblings over it was always these are my cousins we had to call our siblings our cousins and kind of be hush-hush about it why is that just because I think because it wasn't because it's not like legal got it so I think that was part of it it was because it wasn't legal and because of like the hate that would come with it too I think I know that they don't want you to like it's not like me talking about it definitely makes people uncomfortable but at the same it makes that community uncomfortable yeah for sure and then wouldn't you think it helps and who knows maybe there's someone that was in your position that gets to hear your voice and hear your story and maybe you give them the strength and the hope to know like wow okay this isn't normal and that's all I could hope for because like is although it can be hard sometimes because it's like when people are like bugged about me talking about it at the same time I'm like I know that there are people living that way that don't want to and they don't know how to get out yeah because even though you don't have to escape like maybe physically mentally the escape is insane the brainwashing and the toll that it takes on you to leave something like that it messes with you and it messed with me for a while even after I left like even what you said about feeling like you're not going to go to heaven with your or is that what you consider heaven yeah heaven with your family and your siblings and your kids like that alone would make anyone sit oh yeah I used to like I realized that I started struggling with some like religious OCD and I never realized until I had kids that I like struggled with it but I literally after we left I would pray every night for God to not take my daughter from me I literally thought she was going to die because she we didn't we chose to not live that way she didn't get a special baby blessing that they do all these things and I didn't even realize that it was like messing with me and when I realized that I was like whoa this is crazy like I should not be having to pray every night for my daughter to not die like that is taxing yeah to say the least yeah to say as a mother you're like no gosh that's horrible I'm sure you get it you're like no oh no when I have dark thoughts I'm like cancel cancel and this isn't happening yeah what do you want people to take away from this I think if I could use my voice in any way for good it's that there is nothing more powerful than being authentic to who you are even if it makes other people uncomfortable even if it makes you uncomfortable at first because you're a people pleaser right even if people don't want to be in your life anymore because you're being authentic to who you are for me that's not going to happen I don't want to be in your life anymore because you're being authentic to who you are and I think that's what's going to happen and I think that's what's going to happen for me that was leaving a very high demand religion where it disappointed a lot of people when I chose to leave and it hurt them but in the end it was the best thing that I could have done for me and for my family and I just hope through sharing my story that if anybody's going through anything in life whether it's leaving a high demand religion or a cult or and maybe they need the strength to leave I'm going to be a part of that and I'm going to be a part of that and I'm going to be a part of that and I'm going to be a part of that and I'm going to be a part of that and I'm going to be a part of that that this gives them hope that like it gets better and you will find your community and your people that love you and even if you're living a toxic marriage or a toxic relationship that it's worth it to leave get up get the fuck out and leave because you deserve to live the life that you want to live and I truly believe that authenticity and mental health are so deeply connected and I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about that but if you are not being authentic to who you are you're not going to going to be happy and that is going to put a toll on you mentally and also in that from losing my brother who was 14 to suicide we need to be having these conversations with our children our children need to know that they are loved the way that they are that they can be authentically themselves and they also need to know that they can come to you if they're struggling and that it's okay to not be okay yeah and I think that honestly that's the leading cause of suicide is not talking about it and the biggest reason why there's a stigma to mental health is not talking about it because everybody has struggles in their life and if our children know that anytime they are having a struggle oh I'm having a struggle but it's okay and it will get better and I can tell my mom and dad I can tell people that I trust that I'm struggling you and I don't have to keep this bottled up inside and I just think that I don't know authenticity mental health come hand in hand and I don't know you need to live your life the way that you want to and if that's leaving a high demand religion if that's leaving a toxic relationship do it it's hard at first but then it's easier it's harder to stay yeah honestly you're so right it's so beautifully said and I think that could happen at any age like your mom you just left the church herself I'm sure it was terrifying for her yeah and but it you you're never too old it's never too late to start over exactly very good point and get the life you want yeah even if it's a little bit because that little bit might be the best time of your life and better than it will still be worth it it will be it's never too late do you have any faith now like do you have a different faith or any faith I think that I'm still maybe on my journey like I wouldn't say that I'm like religious like I'm not tied to a certain religion but I am very spiritual and I also just believe in being a good person and doing good and I think that like I still struggle a little bit with religion at all in general because of where I came from so I just really cling to being a good person and teaching my kids to be good people and I think that's matters more than anything honestly for someone in polygamy I would think a lot of that has its own identity in a way because you were young and you left the church do you think like you like you had to get rid of the identity of polygamy because growing up in a small town I imagine a lot of people knew that you came from a polygamous family like did that bother you that that was an identity that followed you places oh yeah I hated it yeah I which is so funny because now I talk about it and I have no shame about it and maybe that's why I talk about it and don't have shame about it because my mindset has shifted I used to be so embarrassed that I came from a polygamous family and I hated that people would say stuff and now I'm like yeah I grew up in a polygamous family so what I didn't choose that and you know what it's a good story to tell do you ever get scared that you left the church I think I used to what do you mean by scared I don't know I just and I don't know what's really real or fiction like from what people say but you hear like oh it's dangerous yeah you just hear I think because FLDS I do think it's more dangerous to leave FLDS and that's the Warren Jeffs got it keep sweet pray and obey even though we didn't grow up in that specific polygamy I was always taught to just keep sweet pray and obey do what you're told crazy but I always had that little bit of fire in me you know yeah thank god what do you feel you're the most proud of of accomplishing in your life at this moment I don't know I guess maybe it sounds dumb because we're already talking about this but just like being the mom that I am to my babies yeah like it'll get me emotional every time no you're such a good mom because yeah sorry no don't be sorry you're such a good mom you really are I try my best and you know anytime that I do something wrong I'm always like whether I yell at them I lose my temper I'm like that is not your fault I was having a hard time with my emotions and that's not on you that's on me and even like just little things like that that I was never told as a kid like that I don't have to carry other people's emotions and that that's on them if they lose their shit or they have their issues it's not on you to carry and I feel like I always had to carry so much as a kid and always walking on eggshells and I am just thankful that despite everything that I've been through and not having a good parent role to look at I have been able to just be a mom that I always dreamed of and I just I love being a mom and that's probably the most the thing that I'm most passionate about is motherhood and giving my kids the best life that they can ever have well I think it's really really beautiful that exactly what you said you didn't have a good role model to look towards but you do a really damn good job it seems and even things like that the way that you're able to communicate with your kids like if you know you I've done that to mine I've like snapped I'm like I'm so sorry and I'll explain and then my kids are like I think that goes a long ways though because I don't believe that our kids need perfect parents I didn't need perfect parents I just needed the repair the repair of this shouldn't have happened and I'm sorry the conversations conversations with your kids and helping them understand things I just think goes a very very long ways and I hope that it does it for my kids I can hope that you know and I'm sure that they'll have their issues whatever when they get older but I just hope that they just never have to question my love for them no I don't I don't think they could I really don't last question how do you think you maintain so much grace and forgiveness for the ones that maybe weren't so great to you I don't know I at first I didn't know if I could I feel like in a way it's like a grief and the older I got the more of the grief of it that I felt the realization of I don't know I don't know what the love that I lacked and the parent bonds that I lacked and all those things I don't know I guess I just do not want to live my life bitter and maybe that's what it is yeah I came to a realization one day maybe maybe it was slowly that I don't want to live a bitter life and bad things happen all the time and at the end of the day we get to choose is this going to destroy me yeah or is this going to make me a better person is this going to make me into who I want to be I think you're so self-aware and so aware like yes I wish my mom did certain things but you also understand how she was raised and it's you know a domino effect that way and even your dad you're like no I don't want the relationship but that's you're not trashing anyone you're like yeah no it's just and that's the thing about me like I'll be honest yeah yeah I'll be I'll be honest but I try to be you know respectful about it you are and so if anyone has something to say I think that's their own and I mean I guess like you saying like I share my story to help people and that's exactly it is I I learned after losing my brother that your story matters your story is your life and it matters and you get to choose to keep on going you get to choose how to write your story and sometimes things will pop up in your story that are harder that you didn't choose but at the end of the day you still get to choose your story because you get to choose if you are going to grow from it or let it destroy you and it's your story yeah you get to choose your story 100 well I'm so proud of you I don't want that to sound condescending I really really doesn't thank you I appreciate that because I can't imagine how much personal work it's taken and you just seem still so full of light and what a beautiful thing that no one else can take that from you thank you yeah thank you I really appreciate that thank you for having me Thank you.