Escaping a cult, going blind, & retiring my guide dog w/ Matthew and Paul

Thank you to Quince for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Let me tell you the seasons are changing. It's starting to be time that we can get out our denims again. We can get out our sweaters and there is no better place than Quince. So many of the things I'm constantly reaching for in my closet to layer up, dress up, dress down, come from Quince because they have very, very high quality products. I'm talking 100% Mongolian cashmere. They have silk organic cotton wool. They have those premium fabrics but at an amazing price. Everything at Quince is actually priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands and that is because they work directly with ethical factories, hunting out the middle man. So you're paying for high quality, not brand markup. Actually just last night, Matt was telling me that he grew out of his shorts. I don't fit my clothes. I've been hitting the gym and so I need new clothes. He bought me Quince swim trunks that are really high quality. I wear them all the time when we go on the pool with the boys. I'm excited to see what she picks out from Quince for me next. Your nice khaki shorts are from Quince. With the khaki that I wear like literally every day. Yep. Those are from Quince. You don't even know where your clothes are from but if you had to guess they're probably from Quince because I love shopping their min section as well for Matt. You can wear them in many different ways for many different seasons. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to Quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know that unplanned sent you. It's the best way to support the show. A friend of his said you're throwing your life away. This guy's gonna lose all his vision. You're gonna be his caretaker. Is that real? You really want? You could marry a fully able body person and then they get hit by a bus and then they're in a wheelchair. Does that mean you'd leave them? Matthew and Paul are an interabled couple that went mega viral on TikTok after Matthew started breaking his blind husband Paul. Growing up gay and there's just a lot of people that don't understand and it's not something that we take personally. We shifted to really focusing on talking about my journey with sight loss. That is when this whole new crop of trolls emerged. Really? We got him the blind deniers. At 16, Paul was diagnosed with a degenerative eye disease that will eventually leave him completely blind. But that hasn't stopped him from pursuing his dream of becoming a children's author illustrating six books in the last two years. When there's a blind character, they always have some super power and they have like kung fu ninja skills and they're so cool. I say you run with that. We talk with them about escaping a cult. Their journey to fatherhood and retiring their beloved guide dog, Maple, all on today's episode. Please welcome Matthew and Paul and Mr. Maple. Does Livin lift his hat? He didn't even lift his hat. He's so great. He's so over it already. Oh, is it being traveled for him? Yeah, but he loves to travel. He does. Yes, it gives him a purpose. He loves like it's a new place. He loves new places to map. All the way through Seattle. How do you when Maple's traveling? How do you take Maple to the bathroom at the airport? Is it like this? He refuses. Oh, he refuses? Oh, the pet areas that they smell awful. No. And he's like, I'm too good for this. Do you know who I am? Have you seen my Instagram account? No, but we have to go outside the airport. You have to do it outside the airport. They are trained to just go on pavement. Really? They prefer it over grass. Okay. But the airport bathroom area for dogs is that what is that? Describe that area for somebody that's never been there before. I've never been to that area. Some of them have like a astroturf and a fake fire hydrant. Some of them are just a hard floor right with a drain in the middle. But there's usually and they pump it like they pour perfume over it. So it's like you have this really potent awful perfume smell that you can smell all the urine and other stuff underneath. And it's often right next to a bathroom somewhere in a terminal. It doesn't make sense, but I mean, it smells awful. It's pretty bad. But it's like a round of corner. Sometimes it's in a room. So we travel a lot with our kids and there's often service dogs of all kinds that we see. And when we were traveling recently, we met a service dog. And I was going to ask you this too. We always tell our kids, this might be wrong. Like they're just drawn to any dog. And they're like, can I go say hi? We always say like you have to, if they're, you have to ask the owner. But usually if I see like a vest of some sort, we're like that dog's working. So he can't. Like how do you, yeah, what do you do about kids that just come up and are attracted to your to Mr. Maple? Well, I want to say, first of all, Griffin did a very good job. Did he? He was in here before he stood back. He waited. We offered to take the harness off. And then he understood the assignment. And I would actually, I would say that kids are often more aware and educated. I've often heard kids telling their parents, we can't touch that dog. But the reverse is true too. I hear a lot of parents educating their kids and using it as an educational opportunity. So it's the only times people have literally breached that and just gone and started petting my dog. It's been full grown adults. No. Okay. Is it usually elderly people that? No. No. No. No. Well, I am blind. So they could be. They're all ages. All ages. Okay. Yeah. They just can't help themselves. They reach down. Sound elderly? Can you tell us a story about a time that somebody went ahead and started petting Maple without your permission? Well, I was walking through downtown Scaddle where we live. And I was walking home from my barber. And it just happened very suddenly because they were walking toward me. I couldn't really see them. But I heard them approaching and I heard their reaction, their excitement. You know, and the next thing I know, I can hear the hands on Maple and petting him. And of course, Maple doesn't know that he's not. I mean, he doesn't know the rules. We're like. He's doing rules. He does and he doesn't. It's not like he knows he needs to be focused. But if somebody breaks the rules, like they do it TSA when they give him a pat down with his harness on. He's like, okay, I guess this is okay. And so he's he's loving it. I can feel the tail wagging and I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no, he's working. You can't pet him. And she shot back and she goes, rude. What did you say to that person? I just say anything. I'm just like, Maple, let's keep going. I don't think it's the same. But I actually created a little web comic about it. I have a webcomic called the Blind Robot. And in it, the Blind Robot has a guide bot named Mr. Motor. And I wanted to create like a four-panel visual like representation of like what that situation would be like. So I have the exact scenario in which somebody is asking to pat the guide bot. And he says, sorry, he's working. The person says, rude. And he's a pilot. It was this robot pilot. And then the next scene is the he's now landing a plane. And my character, the blind robot says, can I give you a hug? And he says, sorry, I'm landing a plane right now. He says, rude. So it's sort of like petting a working dog is like asking a pilot for a hug while they're trying to land a plane. Yeah, so better not to approach a working dog. Yeah, yeah. If you see them stopped if the dog's laying down, then then I like it if someone comes up and says, could I say, hi, could I pet your dog? Paul's super happy to take the harness off. I mean, yeah, I actually isn't. Listen, I don't mind it. And I love introducing maple to people because it's such a treat for him. Yeah, he loves meeting people. So like, it's a nice break for him, right? But I as people with a platform that we get to talk about these things, I reiterate, if you do see a working guy dog and they have a vest on never, ever, ever ask to pat it because you're putting the blind person or the disabled person in a situation where they have to make a decision and maybe they're maybe they're having a stressful day and maybe that's not convenient for them and even asking them becomes a distraction. They maybe even tried to do an important task in that moment. And while it's true, I don't mind it. We don't mind it. But I feel like Matthew's when I'm Matthew's around, I feel a lot safer for situations like that. But I would encourage your viewers just not to ask. Okay, unless they're out of their harness and you're like, okay, maybe, maybe it's appropriate. Yeah. And for anybody that's new here, how would you describe your your type of blindness? I correct me if I'm wrong. I'm going to try the pronunciation of it. It's retinitis pigmentosa. Yep. You nailed it. Let's go. Let's go. Okay. What what exactly is retinitis pigmentosa for somebody that doesn't understand? You know what? I'm going to actually let Matthew tell you because when Matthew and I first started chatting online when he found my Instagram account 10 years ago, he just admitted this to me recently. He's I he found out about my eye disease because I was posting about it. And he started chatting with me and I was like, gosh, this guy, he knows so much about it. Well, it turns out he had a Google browser open at the same time. And he knew how to ask all the questions. Yeah. So yeah, so Paul has retinitis pigmentosa. It's a degenerative inherited eye disease. Usually inherited. He's getting this really. But Paul is denovo, which means he created the mutation himself. First in my line. Wow. It was not passed on. There's what 800 variants? 200 variants. No, no, no, right now. Yeah, about 200 variants. Wait, what was that where you used denovo? Denovo means that you are the regenerator of a mutation. Yeah, you're like the first to have. So I would never heard that word before. But since it is genetic, I can pass it on. Yeah. But it wasn't passed on to me because every mutation has to start somewhere. Okay, that's true. And I'm the first to do it. Your parents had like bentos. They've been tested, yeah, and they didn't have it and then I was that's when I found out I was adopted now I'm just kidding. I did wonder but I'm like now I look way too much I feel like every kid grows up Hoping at some point you're like maybe I have a secret rich family out there But you were diagnosed a little older huh? Yeah, yeah, I was 16 Wow, and the symptoms started much earlier and the first symptom is Typically the loss of low light vision. So I like on a camping trip I couldn't see the stars in the sky and I didn't understand why and I have an older brother who was like There's the big dipper and I was like I don't see it like I'm just looking up and it's in key black dark sky Yeah, and my parents thought I didn't understand what a consolation was so they're like no, no, no, no You have to connect the dots and they were getting frustrated with me and they thought I was probably like you know a little slow I was feeling slow because I'm like why are they what can they see that I can't and because I have a little brother And I had a big brother and I was like well, he can see it. So I'm gonna pretend I can see it because enough of this He's having too much fun. Yeah, so I faked being able to see things like that for years out of shame embarrassment and not wanting to feel different and But as that progressed into being really clumsy in like low-lit restaurants or getting into accidents when It was dusk. So I Was just labeled as accident prone. They didn't think anything was wrong with my eyes because by the way I was already wearing glasses. I The disease I have affects the retina of the eye It's the back of the eye and we're tested in school for like is your acuity good That's a different part of the eye. That's the lens of your eye so they don't test for retinitis pigmentosa is what I'm saying It's kind of a rare thing and so they thought well, we have glasses for Paul and I'm thinking this is supposed to correct my vision So it's not a vision problem. What's going on? I guess I'm just clumsy and then at 16. I was learning to drive a car And then like my second time behind the wheel of a car nearly merged into some oncoming traffic everybody's like panicking. I pulled over I got an appointment with an ophthalmologist and then a specialist after that It took like six months of testing, but I was finally diagnosed with this rare disease So after that incident you know learning to drive a car and almost getting a crash Did did you have to like stop that that whole process all together? Did you never get into your license? Not until I met this man. I never got my license But this guy was like what if there's a zombie apocalypse? I have a heart attack and you have to like get in a car and drive us to Like what if so he took me to a big empty parking lot. Yeah, yeah I took you to a big empty parking lot and you drove around, you know Freedom it was crazy because I was like My foot wasn't on the pedal and we were going I was like we're going. He's like. Yeah, it just goes on its own I was like it does you said yeah, you have to put your foot on the brake Okay, this is fast enough. Okay, we're just letting him know we use the accelerator just coasting Okay, wait like we're getting a little ahead of ourselves. Okay, let's rewind a bit back to back to how you guys met Yeah, you met on a on a dating at back was it in 2016? And you guys got married in 2019 like we did so yes parallels parallels. Yeah, okay Who was it that likes like he slid into my DNA. I was on the app which I connected had linked to my Instagram Yeah, okay, and he then was slew thing on my Instagram. I went to his Instagram And I was like whoa this guy is all these incredible large paintings like beautiful surreal colorful So he's an artist and he was talking about doing commissions and shows and galleries and Then he'd recently ran a marathon and I was like, wow, that's super cool half marathon And it's not as impressive That's very impressive and he's blind and I was like, whoa, how? How's he doing this? So I just reached out and started asking him and that's when he started telling me about Retinitis pigmentosa and we were messaging back and forth for about two months At that time I lived in northern Washington state and published in southern British Columbia, so we were just I was in the Vancouver area Just across the border and so finally after two months. I was like I should you know, I should go up and visit so I said I Want to come up and visit and do you need to give me a painting lesson? I said well, oh wow I I mean I I was like absolutely not this guy lives in America and I'm Canadian I'm like I don't have a driver's license I'm not gonna do this back and forth. I just look looking for somebody local, you know But like somebody with low vision like me like finding people through apps and dating apps actually way easier than like I don't go out to bars clubs like where am I gonna meet somebody and I was I was painting in my own home studio And that's how I was had work. So I was not like I was gonna meet somebody at work But I was like this guy's really interesting. He's really articulate. He knows a lot about my disease He's got it apparently Google And he sent me a clip of him playing his violin on stage with Andrea Bocelli and if you're if you're familiar Are you you know? Oh, I feel like everyone knows that. Okay. Yeah, I feel like an idiot He's an Italian opera singer but like crossover into like popular Okay. Yeah, and he's like do edit with Celine Dion off to check out his. He's kind of a big deal But he goes back like 30 years, you know, he's been the big thing for a while and you've heard of him You've heard his I've heard of it. I'm just big. Yeah. Alright. He was he wasn't alive during the Roman Empire So you may not know and he sent me this clip and I was like you should have just led with that I mean, it was he was like in this tuxedo and The lighting was really like it was just like beautiful, but it was the playing obviously He's so talented and I was like, okay, you can come up But you have to bring your violin and give me a lesson and play for me And yes, I'll I'll give you a painting lesson and return and so that was our first date. That's amazing Matthew was the was the DM. Can you paint me like one of your French girls that we said? I wanted to say that for so long That's a that's a cool first date you guys Artistic. Yeah. Yeah. Two artists meeting. That's two starving artists like we were just like I've had no two panties to rub together And we were like let's yeah, I mean, it was like I wrote in my journal that night I think I just met my husband. I've never thought that in my life meeting anybody for the first time I'll not tell me that Pro tip if you feel that way about somebody don't tell them after the first date wait I actually I told him in our wedding bouse. I read the journal entry for the first time three and a half years later So I waited to let you know What I have to ask it though because I did I did see this when I was scrolling through your YouTube thumbnails It was like a thumbnail about the time that you almost broke up what what happened How did you go from this like incredible first date and be like I met my husband to like it almost ending How did that how did that happen? I don't remember this YouTube video. It was like a bit of a clickbait title. We were doing long form YouTube videos like three years ago And it's like the reason we almost broke up. Yeah, Matthew doesn't even remember why The truth is there's a couple things actually that we discussed in that video and one of them was the whole blindness thing like entering or two Series relationship with a person with disabilities. We fell fast and hard for each other like fast and hard Romantic comedy style like just like like got us to the courthouse kind of love And I think it was scary for both of us to feel so in sync and Matthew had a moment where a friend of his said like You're throwing your life away This guy's gonna lose all this vision. You're gonna be his caretaker and like is that real you really want? And I think there was a moment of crisis and I around that same time Well, that's when I called my dad. Yeah. Yeah, so I called it my dad and I was like, okay, so this guy I've been telling you about him And I really like him but like what do you think like do you think this his is Disabilities should matter and my dad was like No, he said you could marry a fully able bodied person and then they get hit by a bus and then they're in a wheelchair Does that mean you'd leave them? And so he's like at least you know already what you're getting, you know, it's not gonna It's not a surprise and so he said if things work out if if you feel like you can work with this and things go well and Then then yeah, it shouldn't it shouldn't matter So that was and I've always used my dad for advice. He's great anytime. I want I just call him up and he's got good advice So yeah, it was that was the reassurance that I needed to just like go through with it So you've always been close with your dad like all growing up? No, no I went through a number of years of like actually having no contact really really and then as an adult I reestablished that and you know Now we talk and text multiple time Okay, that's so sweet because I knew about your upbringing so then saying that you had such a close relationship with your dad I was like that's amazing is he's still a member of the No, no he's out. Yeah, he did a 180 How would you describe someone that's never heard of the IBLP? How would you describe that cold? It's a Non-denominational Evangelical base, but there's this guy named Bill gofford who is a charismatic Has a charismatic personality. He's Very engaging excellent public speaker and he started I think back in the 60s and 70s going around doing these basic life principle seminars for just Christians, and he just had good advice on how to live and be in relationships. And so he would go around to major cities and fill stadiums. He was very, very popular. And then through time after some time he decided to have an advanced seminar. And a much smaller group of people went to that. And then he then decided to create his own homeschool program, his own homeschool curriculum. And that was kind of like the third step. If you went through the basic and then the advanced seminar, then you liked it, then you signed up for his homeschool curriculum, which my parents did. And that was called the Advanced Training Institute. Right, you know, it sounds great. It doesn't want to advance training. And that became really a cult. It was all about whatever he said to do. And people really followed him in this very cult-like mentality. And then a lot of the teachings started to get really strange. And you know, he was hearing from God every year and then presenting what God told him, had told him at that year's conference. And everyone just followed him with this just blind zealous enthusiasm. - Thank you to Unreal for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Something about me, I always need a sweet treat after a meal. And Unreal has created snacks that you will be craving. I promise you, you guys, these new peanut butter drops. I haven't had them before, this is my first time. And they are delicious. This bag will be gone tonight. - And with simple ingredients and way less sugar, you can enjoy something just sweet enough at any time of day. - Unreal's new launch peanut butter drops and reinvents the poppable bite-sized peanut butter snack you grew up with and tastes even better than you remember. I promise you guys these are so satisfying. You know, when you just really need us, do you relate to that? - You know, sometimes-- - No, it hits me. Like it's like, I have no other option. - Well, it's the pregnancy hormones. - No, I have it all the time. - Oh. (laughing) I promise you it's just a satisfying for me, but with 33% less sugar than the leading brand made with organic peanut butter and four grams of protein per serving. - This is their first non-chocolate product made especially for all the peanut butter lovers out there. You can find Unreal products including their new peanut butter drops anywhere cravings hit, including at Whole Foods, Target, Costco, and other grocery stores. As a special offer for our listeners, visit unrealsnacks.com/unplanned to get $4 off a bag of Unreal. That's unrealsnacks.com/unplanned. Terms and conditions apply. - They're really, really good. - How old were you when you started to connect the dots and realize that what you were being taught and what you were growing up in was a cult, wasn't the norm and was very different than the rest of the world? - Definitely mid teens. I was like, "Oh, we're weird." Because when I talk to people not in the cult, I would have to like downplay it and really kind of like fudge a lot and not really explain it very much because I was like, "If I explain this, this is weird." - Were you homeschooled? - Yeah, I was homeschooled. - That was like the curriculum. - That was the curriculum. - Okay. - There was no television, no movies, no, okay, I'm surprised because you being such a talented violinist was the violin what you got really good at because you weren't allowed to listen to music so you just had to make your own. - Partly, I mean, partly it was like we had all this time. We were homeschooled, so violin could just become a big part of the curriculum. In fact, it was like so important that my mom would say it's one of the subjects you have to have done before lunch, you know? - Okay, so. - I feel like a lot of kids I knew that we're homeschooled were not played the harp or the violin. - Oh wow. - Yeah. - Book off the whistle. - Or a piano. (laughs) - Book off it was a huge fan of music. He really encouraged it. And he'd have all these families come up during the summer conference that like all played violin. I don't know, yeah, he liked violin. - Really liked it. - All played violin or played a mix of instruments. And so my brother and sister and I, we all played violin. And so there was a couple of summer conferences where we were up on stage performing for you 60,000 people. - Wow. - And the doggers sitting there, front row. - Okay, I was gonna ask where there are a lot of siblings 'cause we've actually had the pleasure of talking to a few of the doggers on our show. And so we kind of have learned a lot about IVLP and the adults, but from an outside perspective obviously. But obviously I was gonna ask if you had a lot of siblings, but it seems like you have two. - Yeah, yeah. And we felt shame around that because you were going to these conferences with these big families. And you could tell the people were looking at you like where are the rest of them? - What's wrong. (laughs) - Where's the rest of them? - Where's the rest of them? - What's wrong with you? - Oh my. - You know, because Bill Gothard took this verse with a testament about a quiverful of arrows and he decided that that meant that a family who were supposed to have as many children as possible because a quiverful of arrows was as many children as you could possibly have. And then you were supposed to, I guess, shoot them out into the world to do good. And you wanted to take over. - You know. - Yeah. - Fill your arms. - Fill your arms. - Yeah, he was creating his own army. - Yeah, yeah, exactly. - Can you speak to keeping a journal entry of your childhood? I know, like, learning about your story, I found it super interesting that you had a hide your journal underneath your dresser and tape it underneath your dresser. And from my understanding, your mom ended up discovering the journal, reading all of it. Can you, like, speak to that and what exactly transpired? - Yeah, so I went on a retreat and it was during that time that it really came to grips with everything. And I was like, yeah, this is not good. Also, you know, the cult being gay was an abomination. So I was also in a lot of denial because I was like, well, this is who I is, but this is who I is. - This is who I is. - This is who I is. - The title of his new memoir. - Yeah. - This is who I am. - This is who I am. - This is who I am. - Hi, bye. (laughing) - Oh, it's cold. This is who I am, but also it can't be because I'm not an abomination. I'm in a good person. I do what I'm told. I obey my parents. I'm like doing everything right. So how could I be both things? So I just used that week. It was a retreat where you did a lot of journaling. You encouraged just journal and get your thoughts out. And so I did. And that's when I kind of realized like, oh, this isn't gonna work. I'm gonna have to leave at some point. I don't know when. I don't know how to go about that, but at some point I will. - At what age about was that? - This is around, but team. - This is so interesting because I've helped him. Rebuild and understand the timeline because so much of it is just like, due to PTSD I have a lot of like, I don't like remember dates at all. I have vague memories of these events, but I can't really place them. - This is my other question. Were you raised in your Arkansas then? - No. - Okay, so I'd be able to print, oh, Kansas. Okay, I was a selfish. - I feel he was worldwide. - Anybody could subscribe, pay the annual fee and get the program and just start following it. - So were other families around you when you weren't like going to big conferences? - It was very common for people in the IBLP ATI to kind of end up going to the same churches. So the church we went to in Kansas City was like, probably 90%. - Wait, did you say K, the city? - Yeah. - Oh my gosh. - Wait, my brother lived in Kansas, I'm from St. Louis originally. - Oh yeah. - My brother lived in Kansas City for a while. - He was like, school in Springfield, Missouri. - Oh wow. - Okay. - Okay. - Yeah. - Yeah, we lived in like, south of Overland Park. - Okay. - Yeah. - I don't know like, Kansas City super well, but like my brother briefly lived near the Plaza. - Okay, yeah. - Like a right-foot area. - Yeah, right. - Right, this is really nice. - Yeah, okay, small world, crazy. - And the other thing that was part of your cult were the institutes of the music institutes that you would go to. - Oh yeah, there was lots of, lots of institutes or summer camps, whatever you would wanna call them that you would go to. - It was like months. - Yeah. They ranged anywhere from a week up to, you could go for several months. And I was a big part of a lot of the music programs that were called sound encounters. And that was where all the kids who were really passionate about music would show up. And we'd have like two weeks in one of his training centers. And yeah, it was a lot of fun. - Matthew recently told me like, you either did these sound encounters, these music things, but if you were in the music, you went to these like military camps. There were like these boot camps for kids where they were like, it was far more like militant, right? - Yeah, there were a couple of options. You kind of had to find where you were in camps. - Yeah, there were work camps. You got a lot of free labor out of here. - And Paul, like growing up near Vancouver can, and were you like in Vancouver just outside of it? - Well, I was born there, but I actually was growing up in Seattle due to my dad's work. So, but I just in the Pacific Northwest, yeah. - But in your neck of the woods, was it like, was your upbringing similar to Matthew's where it wasn't acceptable to be gay? Was that? - Mine's a bit different because I, my parents were like Easter and Christmas church goers. I had a family member and aunt who was a born again Christian and her influence because she was the eldest kid. My mom's older sister. She kind of influenced all of her sisters to also sort of enter the church a little more seriously, and then at the age of 14, I actually was adopted by that aunt due to my mom has continued struggles with alcohol and it's still not sober. But I was adopted by that aunt and I moved to a tiny rural Canadian town and was baptized and was thrown into the evangelical church. And this was the type of church where it's like, rock bands on stage, the half pipe out back. It's like the cool, like born again, cool church. We'd go to these like Jesus freak, like three-day concert events and we'd mosh pits and stuff, yeah. But it's all very like-- - Different brands. - It's a different brand. - Yeah, different brands. - It was a really different brand to crochet, that's for sure. - But at the same time, yes, being gay was a sin, and I knew I was, and that was not okay, especially in the small town. I was going to high school, and so I didn't feel comfortable coming out, but I had come out to myself, and my dad interestingly had moved to San Francisco. His work had taken him down there, and I remember I called him when I was 16 years old. I was like, "Dad, when I graduate, can I move in with you? "Can I come down to San Francisco?" 'Cause I was like, "There's the gay mecca." And he's like, "Absolutely, you can." So I just marked that day. I just counted down the days. In the meantime, I just carried my Bible everywhere I went, and then when I graduated, I flew to San Francisco, made a bunch of cool friends in college, marched in my first pride parade when I was 18 years old, and so that was sort of my coming to terms with it. But it was difficult, because of course growing up in that religious environment, I was dealing again with a lot of shame. - Wow. - Not to the intensity that Matthew has had to deal with, but it's been interesting sharing our stories that way. - I have a family member that is openly gay, like I'm so happy for him, and that's just been like, I've learned a lot, just getting to talk to him, and be there for him. And so, so happy that you guys were able to find each other, and just have this happy life that you probably at one point never thought would be a possibility for you. So I think that's really cool. - Absolutely. - What I found so interesting about your story, Matthew, is just that, yeah, your relationship with your dad really wasn't going so well. And you ended up, now you have other great relationship, but in that timeline, you ran away from home, right? - Yeah, so when I came back from that retreat, and I knew that my time was limited, and I hid my journal, I duct taped it to the underside of a dresser, thinking no one would reach under a dresser, and reach up, and check the bottom of my mom did. And so that was kind of the countdown timer. I knew I was going to be out quickly, and so I had my bags packed, I was prepped, and then one day things kind of went south really quickly, and so I went to the bedroom and grabbed my bag and climbed out my bedroom window, caught my car. - And your violin. - And my violin. - He had to have his violin. - And never returned. And my parents were divorced at that time, and so it kind of took me a number of years, at least five years to kind of find myself, figure out who I was, just even operating by myself in the world was a challenge without all the structure that I had grown up with. But once I felt like comfortable, and I'd kind of like been through the hard work of rediscovering who I was, then I really felt prompted to reach out to my dad, and I did, and that just began, you know, a really incredible friendship, that a relationship that we just never had before. - Support for today's episode comes from Square, and they've got big news. During Squares by Annual Releases event, they launched a wave of innovative new tools to help local businesses run faster, smarter, and more profitably. Whether you're starting fresh or scaling fast, Square helps you learn fast and get ahead. - My favorite part about Square is that kids and neighborhoods near us are using it. So a couple months ago, we were getting hot chocolate at a hot chocolate stand and realized, oh my gosh, we don't have cash to pay these kids in this neighborhood. And that's when the kids were like, no, you can just use a credit card and pay us with your credit card. - These Apple Pay. - Because of Square, yeah, we use Apple Pay. And so I'm so thankful for them, empowering the kids to a hot chocolate stand in Arizona. - I love the young entrepreneurs. - That's awesome. Maybe when our kids are loving it, then we'll have to get a little square. - That sounds fun. It starts at the neighborhood level, but they're also really great about supporting upcoming small businesses that are just getting on the ground, and can support you through major growth too. Square launched its most powerful tools yet, recently to get you there, designed to give local businesses a competitive edge without the complexity. - If you're ready to sell smarter, run faster and stress less, right now you can get up to $200 off Square Hardware at square.com/go/unplanned. That's SQUARE.com/GO/unplanned. Run your business smarter with Square. Get started today. - I'm looking at the title of your new book, The International, which I just find so funny because of anybody that's ever been on the internet. - It's so cute. - Notice how crazy the comments section can be. - Oh yeah. - Such a cute book. I guess the question I wanted to ask with this being a new book that you just came out with, do you see more trolls coming for you when it comes to being gay or being blind? Like, you know, things like this. Where do you see more negative? - Blind. - I mean, I think it's shifted. I would say 10, maybe when we started, and we were sharing our photos, you know, we started off. Like, we were like, okay, we want to, you know, in 2020, pandemic, we're like, we had, we started a podcast. We're like, we got to promote the podcast and we were like posting pictures and things of our relationship in them. And the podcast was just us having our conversation. It was called His and His. And it was just like about two husbands having a conversation, talking about their growing up gay, et cetera. And so we were making that the focal point of our content creation. And I think that's why we got a lot of homophobia and pretty nasty, you know, and we would try to create a safe space because we were trying to attract and build a community where people felt safe to be themselves. And so we were, you know, trying to stay on top of that. And it's interesting because I feel like neither of us took any of that to heart because we just growing up gay and growing up the way we did, we understand that that's just, there's just a lot of people that are ignorant and don't understand around the world. And it's not something that we take personally. But then when we shifted, I would say about four years ago, three years ago, actually, to really focusing on being an interabled couple and talking about my journey with sight loss. And that is when this whole new crop of trolls emerged to accuse me of faking my blindness. Yeah, there's a lot of blind deniers. Yeah, really? We call them the blind deniers. Why do people, yeah, why would people say that you're faking being blind? I think it's because Paul can look at you so well. If right now, he could probably only find one of your eyes, and that's it, he probably can't even see your eyebrow, but just one of your eyes. So with he locks on, it really looks like he's like, can see you. And so often when he walks around our apartment or he's looking at the camera, he looks so able. Sure. And I think people have an expectation that blindness means maybe your eyes are just white or they're closed. I mean, people will say some glasses. Yeah. I mean, I don't really blame them because all I look at it as is this. We all grew up seeing blindness represented one way in TV and movies and books, right? It's like, they have no vision. They have the dark glasses on. They can't see anything, right? They have a dog or a cane. There's nothing there, right? Totally. And the truth is, like all disabilities, blindness exists on a spectrum. There is a legal threshold. But then in that zone, there's like a huge variance of what blind people can and can't see. In fact, 93% of the blind community can see something. They have something called functional vision, whether that's just light and shadows, whether it's just the peripheral vision, they can just see out at the corner and there's nothing in front of them. Or like me, it's like looking through a pinhole or just like looking through a straw. I have no idea. So 7% of blind people have the type of blindness where they don't see anything else. Right, right, right, right. And they call themselves totals. Totals. They call them a total. Really? Yeah. Which you just learned. I was like, I haven't online communities of totals are like totals. What's that? Yeah. Yeah. And so I think coming online and talking about blindness that way, and it not looking the way people expect it to look, just upset them, you know? I just like, they're like, you're faking it, you're faking it for cloud, you're faking it for views, you're making it all this up. I just not buying it. And we approach that with gentleness and education. Yeah, that's a kind of way of describing it. You yourself. Right. Yeah, you're like, this is the reality of my everyday. But I did elect to come online and represent something that I felt was underrepresented. And I knew that there would be confusion. And so I see it as an opportunity to educate and change. And initially, we had saved phrases to like explain the levels of blindness, like help people go deeper. We did visual. We even did like simulations on screen simulations to show what different levels of blindness could look like, et cetera, et cetera. And that was a lot of work in the beginning. And now we're at the point where, if one of those people pop up in our comments, we see about 10 dedicated followers explaining it to them for this point. That's awesome. And so that's like seeing it in action that people really are getting it and spreading that. But even in the early days, we could get some really nasty comment, send a safe phrase, you know, blindness is a spectrum, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then oftentimes they would reply like, oh, I'm so sorry, thank you so much. I didn't realize. And they were so rude at the beginning. And then they got so good. It felt so good to get this like super rude comment, explain to them just briefly. And then get such kindness back, you know, it just was a little bit of education. I just say we have this rule, no clap backs. And if it makes your heart rate, if it increases your heart rate, just delete it. That's a really great rule. I feel like we've got action on that as well. If it gets the blood boiling, just delete it. Just evaluate your body in the home. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's gotta go. Um, sometimes that depends, that changes day to day for me though. I told Matt I was like one of these, one day, some girl. I got on my Instagram and was like, she's like, "Girl, the sunglasses are not it." I was like, "She's got to get blocked." Yeah. She's like, "What?" It was just that day for me. I was like, that was dramatic. That was really. We've been on the block train, too. A few times. It feels good. Like, I'm just blocked. But then I noticed like in other, on other platforms, I'll see people, I've encountered comments of like, "Oh, they blocked me," and that's like a badge for them. They're like, "They are so happy that they got under your skin to the point of being blocked." So I'm like, "Forget it. I'm not doing that anymore." Okay, good. That's good to know. It's good to know. We're not giving them what they want. Seriously. But that's why I wrote the book. I appreciate your education so much. I think that's very, that's very kind, generous of you, like because that's not, you're, that's not necessarily like you, your job. Exactly. You've taken that on. I have a kind of curious question. It's okay if I ask that. Of course. Okay. You have beautiful blue eyes. Thank you. Is there any correlation between eye color and this condition or like, eye issues in general because I was actually just talking to one of my friends whose son has like, very light blue eyes. Hey, right. And she was like talking about the issues he has because of the color resides. I've never even heard of that before. Right. Okay. Interesting question and officially the answer is likely no. Okay. I'm not a doctor, but almost everybody I've met with the condition or seen with the condition has these like really light eyes. Like there's a lot of overlap there, but then I know that these, maybe we need to publish a paper, Abby. I have to know. I have no information. It is. Zero. But they're just like saying like the bright sun, like makes like, squinting easier. And then I was thinking about me and you like, my eyes are larger than you and yours are not super light. People are really dark eyes, but in pictures, I'll be like, and your eyes are perfectly open. Why do I feel like I'm squinty though in photos? That's just because your brow bone. Someone, someone listening to this right now, please comment down below if there's any basis like in a scientific evidence to this because I actually want to really, I want to know. Yeah. Let's create conversation in the comments, people. I want to know. I'm curious. And people love to do that. There's a lot of experts out there. That's a lot of people. I have to know. Yeah. And my parents have to realize. Yeah. Okay. Well, then there's that. There's that. Well, interesting. I was just thinking about that. Actually, no. I was born with dark brown eyes. You're saying they're blue now? No, it's good. Stop it. I'm too cute. I'm too global. You are too cute. Oh, no. I just said cute. I said global. I cannot say that. But that's funny. Thank you to GoodWipes for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. 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We're not worried about our pipes over here, like I would be with some other types of products like this. GoodWipes wants your booty to have a sensational summer. By any two pack of GoodWipes at your favorite retailer, text them your receipt and get reimbursed almost immediately for one of them. For more details, head to goodwipes.com/unplanned. Again, that's goodwipes.com/unplanned. The Snagafree Pack of GoodWipes. On the same sort of thought train, when it comes to, yeah, your parents, and then potentially, you both becoming parents one day. Have you thought about that? Have you thought about like, okay, like if we have a kid, you know, via surrogate or a doctor or whatever, if it is a surrogate, you know, from what you're saying, there is the potential that your kid couldn't inherit what you have. Talk, like describe what that's like from your perspective because I feel like there's probably somebody out there that has some sort of disability and probably is faced with the same sort of question of like, what do you do? I would, first of all, recommend doing genetic testing because that's how you know if you're going to pass it on or what gene it's, you know, present in because you have to understand that. Component, the biological boy. So like, I have, it minds ex-linked so I could only pass it, if I had my own biological kid, I could only pass it to a girl. Is that all? Yeah. Okay. Thank you. You're on it. You know the ex-leg. I know what I'm talking about. I is what I is. And then she could only, your daughter could only, she wouldn't have it. She wouldn't have it. She would be recessive because it's the exes. So it would be recessive ghost symptoms. But she could pass it on to a boy, 50-50%. Okay. That's a lot to think about. Wow. So we're talking, my grand son, my habit would have a chance. And that's because- If she had a boy. If she had a boy. Yeah. So is that a reason not to have a child is something you have to really wrestle with? And we've been down that road with, with, yeah, we actually thought we would have our first by now. By now. Yeah. We had an egg donor- A surrogate. Palsight of the family, a surrogate who volunteered. And Matthew was going to be the father, of course, and then we were- because the egg donor was going to be my cousin. So that was going to allow us to have like this genetically, you know, as close as we can get as a gay couple. That is really cool. Yeah. That is really cool. Right. And we had the fertility clinic picked out and we were just like ready for it. And it kind of fell apart. Yeah. All at the same time. Yeah. And changed their mind. And yeah. And that's just like, yeah. It just changed everything, suddenly for us. And it made us really reevaluate and sort of pause and see like, okay, you know, we're just going to wait for the next sign or signal and just see how it feels in our bodies because it was kind of devastating for that tall fall apart. Yeah. We need to take a minute. That probably, I mean, I don't want to like speak for Abby, but I'm sure, you know, us. I don't know if you know our story, but we went through a miscarriage last year. Yeah. And I can only imagine that, you know, that kind of something similar, there might be that level of excitement that you had, just this sheer joy of like having a kid and getting to become a dad and, you know, especially to with your situation with it being your cousin and you being the donor, like, that seems, I'm probably messing up terminology here, but I feel like that was just such a cool thing to experience and for that, I'll be going away. It must have been, yeah, devastating. Yeah. Yeah. It really changed things. Yeah. It was a real moment of just like to stop and pause and reevaluate. It's interesting. You know, we haven't, we've talked about it publicly like once and, you know, when you think you kind of know what your life plan is going to be and you're kind of setting everything up, but what, you know, as I'm saying that, I'm like, how often does that really happen? Yeah. You know, what is life without these little curve balls? And but it did make us both really sad. I think we had to really sit with the sadness for a while and think like, oh, the future we thought we were building might not be the one. And would we be okay if that isn't the way it went? What do you guys do to cope with that grief? Matthew. What do you do to cope? Because I know me, I mean, like for me, it's all creative. Well, I'm in therapy, so, you know, we both are big into therapy. So we both see therapists. We've seen like couples therapists are individual therapists, so that's important. But I've all often processed all my feelings through art, through my art. So, you know, just through my illustrations and my painting and that sort of thing is a way for me to process and feel writing stories. Matthew, do you do that with your music at all? I don't. I can't think about something else while I'm playing the violin. But like, does it transmute any of the emotion for you? It can process emotions even without me like, like thinking or verbalizing it. Yeah. Were you like a career violinist like, I mean, probably if you were at that level. Yeah. Yeah. It's so cool. Yeah. It was my one single focus, finding the best teachers was my, my mom's like soul focus wherever we live. And I got accepted into the pre-collegiate division of Juilliard in the young age. That's right. And then Eastman, but book author, it was very anti-college university because he said that's where your, your kids would be secularized and won over by the world and, you know, you'd lose them. So I think he installed that secularized. That's a tough one. Yeah. That secularized. Okay. So he instilled a lot of fear, I think, in the parents, like that, that, that, that was a dangerous thing. And so I didn't get to enter any of those programs. I still continued to study music and then, you know, got my first job. I got jobs anyway because you don't really need a degree that you just matters how you sounds. If you play well, you get the job. So I mean, I am sad that I missed those opportunities, but it didn't really seem to hurt that much. So it seems like your mom was the one that like kind of like - She was very musical, yeah. She played like Banjo Flute, Violin, and Piano going up and my father was so unmusical that he got kicked out of choir. It's like, oh my God. - Something I think is really cool is how you incorporate your own life into the children's books that you write. Have you ever thought about, you know, the surrogacy story that didn't work out for you guys? That one doesn't have happy ending. At least right now it doesn't. And I'm hoping that you guys get that happy ending. But has there ever been the idea of putting that story into a book? - I am working on a book about grief for children and it's meant to be processing any type of grief, really any type of loss like that. But specifically it was inspired by losing my brother, my older brother passed away four years ago, suddenly from an overdose. He was struggling with addiction after a foot injury which led to opioids and it was just a fast descent to bounce and all and that was it. Yeah, that's been so interesting for me to go through losing him and I say interesting because it's just like, I don't know how to describe it to anybody and obviously you guys have understanding around that with your recent loss. The grief journey is like a lily pad of jumping back and forth. Like it's non-linear, right? And you jump through all those phases all the time. You can be angry. And I just remember the bargaining from, even when early on like after he passed, I was like trying to make a deal with like the universe. Like can we turn back time? Like how can we find him? How could this can't be real? And then getting to the point of acceptance but like randomly feeling angry at him. Like how could you do this to us? And so I've been working on this book about grief and loss for like how can I make that digestible for a child that loses anything from a pet to like their grandparents or an adult who loses a child or somebody who loses a sibling or somebody who's grieving the loss of a future they thought they were building. And so I got this vision. My brother was a fisherman and he was a Pisces and I got this vision one day while I was clean. I always had the conversations with my brother now. Then I was like talking to him and I was like, "Yeah, I have to, I want to do a book about this." And this vision came to me of this image of a school of fish like from the side, you just see the like the classic like triangular shape of a school of fish under water but like one is missing. So there's just this whole, there's this empty space. And I was thinking about all the things we do to fill that space before we can accept that the space is just always there. And like a school of fish we continue to move forward in time but it doesn't mean the space ever disappears and some days it feels smaller, some things it feels bigger. And I wanted to represent that. So I literally sat down that night and drew the image of the school of fish. And I was like, this needs to be a book. So it's something I'm currently working on to process all those feelings. I want to read that book that I'm sold that thing. So that just seems so powerful. I can just feel, I can just like I see it visually like as you describe the triangle with the missing fish. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And it's so sad, like when you said the missing, like just that like that mold, I just, I can see it and it just like my heart just so, just like something, you know. - Yeah, that came from my brother. I cannot take credit for that. That image came from my brother for sure but I'm just a conduit. So I'm working on it. - I'm so sorry to hear about your loss. - Thank you. - Yeah. - Really hardy. How did that affect your family, like? - Oh god. Yeah, that was, I mean, very devastating obviously. - Both of your parents, it's been so hard on. - It was such an interesting thing because my brother is my only sibling and then I became an only child. And for like the first year after his passing, I remember, 'cause it shattered my parents. Like I've just never seen them so broken ever. And they weren't together. My parents have been divorced for, since I was like 10 years old. But individually, you know, just watching them go through the grieving process and it nearly told my mom. She's just finally actually finding some light for herself after these four years and trying to move forward. I'm really proud of her, you know. But I was terrified something was going to happen to me. All I could think about, any time I voted a plane across the street and it wasn't for, I was like, my parents can't lose me too. I can't, they can't go through this. All I was thinking about, I was like, I have to protect myself because they can't lose another kid. - Yeah. - Yeah. It was the strength, I never thought that that would be, gripped me with fear for like a year. And I shared it with both of them individually. And they both said the same thing. They're like, "Paul, you gotta live your life. "Don't ever live that way with fear. "Don't let fear rule you." That would be more upsetting to us. - That's wow, thank you for opening up about that. Thank you for sharing that. We got really deep there. - Yeah. - Maybe like it up first day. - Children's books. - Tell us about your wedding. - I want to know all the details about your wedding 'cause we all got married in 2019, right? - Yeah. - I know four weddings weren't really had. - I know, well month for you guys. - July. - July. - Okay. - We were December. - December. - December. - Oh, so you were really right. - Right, yeah. - Right before COVID, yeah. - When did you meet in 2016? 'Cause I have a theory about the summer of 2016. - Oh really? Jan 10th. - Yes. - We're about to hit 10 years. - There's something about the summer of 2016. - That was when we started, where it's like flirting. - What was your official meeting? Well, what's your, what do you consider your birthday? - June 18th was our first date. - First date on my birthday. - June and a birthday. - That was our first date. - Yeah, June 18th. - We became boyfriend-driven. - On my golden birthday, I turned 18. - Oh yeah. - Yeah. - And the whole idea, my whole idea was like, all right, I'm becoming a man. - Yeah. - I'm turning 18. It's my golden birthday. - Yeah, it's been 18 weeks. - I've never asked a girl out and I've never kissed a girl and it's happening right now. - Yeah, yeah. - I'm like, this girl is so beautiful and she's bloody. - I just happened to be there. - And she's so sweet. - No, no, I kind of got hit with this like this, you know, I don't know, early life crisis of like, what am I doing? And then I'm like, here's this, like, this, maybe this is my future wife and hey, look at what happened. Wow, and it was on your birthday and you had the date and you had the kiss. - Yes. - Oh my god, that's amazing. - That's amazing. - But this is about you guys. I wanna know your story. - I love it. - We had been to Mexico, a town way south on the Pacific coast called Zewan Taneo near Ex-Tapa with Paul's aunt and uncle and it was beautiful. It was a little fishing village, not super touristy, at least compared to some of the other areas. And we both looked at each other and we were like, if we ever get an area, it's gonna be here. This is really incredible. And we were staying this beautiful bed and breakfast that had a rooftop pool that overlooked the entire little horseshoe bay. - And this person, when was that the big, like that was like at the end of 2018 and it was like, well, if we're gonna get married, let's just plan it now and he's like, well, no, I wanna propose. And I was like, well, get down on your knee then and he's like, well, no, I want it to be a surprise. - Yeah. (laughs) - Yeah, so I gave him like a little bit of an ultimatum. - Okay, super, super ignorant question. How do you know who's gonna propose to who? - Well, it was just that conversation. - Really, that was it. - I was because I was like, I don't know. - Paul didn't want it. - No one needs to propose here. We're just gonna get married. - We both want to get married. - Okay, if I stop the talk. - Yes. - And I was like, no, no, no, I want to propose and I want to surprise you. - And I never had the desire to do that. So I was like, okay, if this has like been in your heart, if this is the goal of yours then you need to do it but you need to do it within the next six months or we're just gonna start planning the wedding. - Because this place, you just let us go. - Then you is gonna go. - Yes. - Yeah, so I had six months and I picked a good spot, surprised him and yeah, he really did surprise me. - But it was like at this top of this snowy peak in Canada and it was like, I was looking at the view 'cause again, my vision's just like at this little pinhole and I look at my phone a lot to try to take in more of my surrounding. - Yeah. - So I'm looking all over. He's kneeling in the snow. - Oh. - He doesn't say anything. He just drops out of my view. I don't even know where he is. And he's holding out the ring. And my aunt and uncle are there filming the whole thing or is it ready to take the photos? - And I don't know how long were you there? - I don't know. - Was your knee gonna be a minute? Yeah, it was getting cold. - Why did you say something? - And then your aunt finally said, where's Matthew? And that part was like, where can you see him? And then he saw me in front of me. He's like, what are we doing? Are we still in Mexico or is it somewhere else? - No, it's Canada. - It's in Canada. - Canada was always in Canada, right? We met. Okay, but the wedding ended up being in Mexico. - Very cool. - So soon as I proposed and we were like, okay, now we can book the wedding in Mexico. - Yep. - Very cool. - Okay. - And we had this tiny, tiny wedding. We only want, it was the rooftop could only fit 12 people. - Oh, really? - So they were like, you can invite 10 people. - Yeah. - Yeah, so-- - Listen to you. - Yeah. - And who did you invite? - Well, our closest family members, which wasn't any, and a few friends. - Those two family friends. - It was very intimate. And it was funny 'cause it was like seven years ago now. I feel like if we were doing it now. Oh my gosh. - It'd be huge. - We would have to. - Yeah. - Because that early in our relationship, we hadn't made a ton of mutual friends. And the interesting part about our lives when we met was, we were both really starting fresh. I mean, Matthew wasn't out of the cult for even that long. - Yeah. - It's not like he had these lifelong friends, or he's not gonna be inviting Bill Gothard in his cohorts to the wedding. - I can still live. - You know, he's still alive. But he's been ousted, ousted. He's not the leader anymore about anything. - Oh. - That's a whole thing. - Oh, it's still a thing. - But it's still a thing. - Was that pre-shiny happy people or post-shiny happy people that he got ousted as a leader? - It was pre. - Oh, it's actually in the documentary, they do talk about the allegations against him. - Yeah. - Okay. - Final episode, they do talk about him being kicked out. - Didn't one of the doggers take over the role? - No. - Oh, okay. I thought they had a prominent role. Anyway. That's a whole thing. Shiny happy people was dramatic. - Okay. (laughs) - But happy thoughts. So we were up there on the-- Now I told you our first date. I made Matthew serenade me with his violin. It was a violin thing. And so when it came time to do our vows, and I told you I read my journal entry to him, but Matthew wanted to play a song for his vows. So he brought his violin down to Mexico and he played one of my favorite songs, which is the Jeff Buckley, Hallelujah. It's a very over-covered song that everybody's heard of bazillion times. But it's so beautiful, so heartbreaking. I know, right? Just do whatever you want. And it was this really, really beautiful moment, and we had timed the whole ceremony to the sunset over the bay. And that was a mistake. Because right as we said, I do. And we're just like, oh, we look over in our entire wedding party. It's staring over at the sunset. What was just beautiful? Nobody really witnessed it, so. Yeah, it was fun. But it was a beautiful wedding. We had an amazing little dinner afterwards, and they made this cutest little cake with these little figurines of us. Oh, yeah, the penguins. And then everyone who came down kind of booked a whole week. So we ended up just all hanging out every day and meeting up at different places to do lunch or go on an outing. So it was like a wedding week. It was really, really cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you play "It's Rainy Man" at the reception? No. Do you want to know something? We had no music. No music. And that was Matthew's request. I had been, I had grown up as a wedding musician. I was like, I hate weddings, I hate playing at weddings. I don't want any wedding musicians. And then I think it was the day before the owners of the Bed and Breakfast tour hosting. And they'd actually volunteered to organize the whole thing for us. They were very, very kind. They'd be like, do you want flowers? We were like, yes, they're like, what kinds do you want? We're like, whatever is in season. And by the way, it's very cheap to get married. They're very easy financially to have a beautiful wedding. Go, we love Mexico, we love taking our baby moons to Mexico. Oh, yeah. We'll do a Vowel. Yeah. That's a little spout. We're doing it. Let's do it. That'd be fun. Yeah. Because we're 10 years old. Maybe we'll do a decade of marriage. But this summer, similar to you guys, we're celebrating a decade together. Yes. That's the same. We've got to do something special. Yeah, we're like, oh, this is our tenth this together. Oh, this is the tenth time. It's our golden because it was June 10th. Oh. I don't know. It's June 10th. It's ten years together. And then we just got a call. We're going somewhere special. But it's right. Can we talk about it? We can't talk about it. Oh, it's a secret. It's a secret. It's not official. But it's going to be cool. Okay. You have to tell us about it. Yeah. We'll tell you after. I have to ask. Is it true that Mr. Maple is going into retirement? Yeah. He is. Yeah. He's going to be before he or a guy dog, but he started to slow down a lot. And it's kind of indicating, he's very, he's perfect in harness. Like he's up. He knows exactly what to do. He makes no mistakes. But he's kind of indicating that he prefers to sleep in the sun. Does he have any big plans for retirement? Well, he'll become my dog. Oh, yeah. He's excited about that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so we'll keep him. We'll have the younger, fresh guy dog. It'll be fun, a little sibling, so it'll be really cute to have, I think, two dogs because I think a lot of the time he wants someone to play with, you know, someone to play tug with. Yeah. I have heard before that, like, dogs are totally different with their harness on. Oh, totally. With the horned harness off. Yes. Which has blown my mind until our dog got trained because I was like, oh, how could a dog know when they're working? Which by the way, we named our dog after the show in the dark, which is about a blind person. Oh, I know. Yes. Murphy. Yes. I've watched episodes of it. Yes. Such a good show. It probably does a dip. Actually, yes. Ask. How does that show? I don't know that. How does it depict blindness? Is it pretty not accurate? Is that cool? I love how they depict it because she's not totally blind. She has some vision, right? Okay. Okay. Right. She's not a total. I'm trying to remember if she is or not. I don't think so. We watched that. I know that phrase. I know that phrase. I know that phrase. We watched it. I would be a different. Yes. I would be a different person. Yes. Because it's like going in the opposite direction rather than showing a person with a disability who's struggling. It's like show them with a disability and they have like Kung Fu ninja skills and they're so cool and they're like one step ahead of everybody else. But like it's inspiring and it's certainly not a bad thing. But after a while as the blind community is like, I feel so like I could never reach this level of what's being represented for me as some would actually come up with. It's like a realistic version. I want to see the make mistakes like I do. Has anybody for real come up to you and be like, so you have super hearing? Oh, all the time. That's not the thing. You ask to start ironically and it's like a very common question. Actually. By the truth. Like can you echolocate? People ask if you can echolate. True. And can you do the little clicking? I click sometimes. Just to freak people out. But there is some truth to it. It's not super hearing, but when you do lose one of your senses, your brain just puts the attention and energy on some of the other ones to compensate. And it's not like I have more, I'm just maybe more focused on it than you know, more tuned into it. Yeah. Yeah. So there is some truth to it. Okay. I'm curious if there's any other show or book or anything like that is just totally not realistic. What's interesting too is about in the dark is when I was, I was made aware of it because there was this article, the Under New York Times did an article about how this person isn't blind and probably shouldn't be representing the character. They should get somebody who has at least some visual limitations because that was like the conversation at the time, like actors, you know. And that. Yeah. Wait, what's your take? I'm actually so curious what your take is on that. Oh, I got it. I'm going to get in trouble. Yeah. You can get in trouble. I'm going to share your take. I'll pass on. I'm going to say anything. No, because like my take, it's nuanced. Okay. I think we can go too far with the only somebody with this disability, can play those parts. But I do want to illuminate the conversation at least a little bit. And here's here's the, here's why that conversation happens to begin with. So they'll say there are working actors out there like me say I wanted to be a working actor. Well, I have tidy bit of vision. It's going to be very difficult for me to land roles of sighted people. Probably won't get those. Right. Because I'm going to need a guy dog or a cane or something. So I might then be limited only to the roles like in the dark, right, where it's actually blind character. And I can play that because, you know, so if the sighted able body actors are coming in and taking the only roles that I could even have a chance of getting, it does seem a little unfair to the community of actors with disabilities. Totally. Totally. Yet at the same time, I am a big movie buff film, cinephile, whatever you want to call me. I love movies. And I like to critique movies and critique performances. And like at the end of the day, it's really go to the person who gives the best performance because that's what great storytelling is really about. That's good. Right. And I would hope that those blind people get a really fair chance in their showing up and the casting directors are seeking out the people with disabilities and saying, hey, this is what we want. Yeah. So that's where the nuance is. I'm not going to boycott the show. Totally. We met her. She was actually super nice. Yeah. We just randomly ran into her at Disneyland. Yeah. And this was like five years ago. Yeah. And this is a 24-year-old. I was just going to say remember that. We have a picture with her. We should put the picture up. She's like, wait. Talk to me. Like everyone is. But I agree with your answer. I think that's, I mean, not that I really, I'm glad that you answered it because you're actually someone with the disability. Yeah. Talking about that actual issue. Right. I like your take. I really like your take a lot. Yeah. So you wouldn't want like that niche or that like that to be the expectation and casting to the point where they're not represented. Right. You know, where it's like, okay, we can't find someone to fill this role or that's like auditioning for this. So then it comes at the cost of like not representing those disabilities. Yeah. That was my other. I wanted to say that because it's like at the end of the day, what's more important? We have this pool of actors that are struggling to find. Okay. Yeah, I understand. I have sympathy for that. The person in that role playing Murphy is now representing something and educating all the audience members and all the people watching are getting to learn about it and that's incredibly valuable. She did a really good job, and I know she had people that with blindness, helping her and coaching her for anybody super confused about in the dark, the pretzel and the dark is a show on Netflix that came out in 2020 about a blind person that is solving a crime. It's like a crime show. It's really good. I think season one was epic. My personal take is season two is not very good. Often the case. We've been having this conversation. Why is this keep happening to shows? Every great show. I feel bad for the actors. I was like, this script for this was just. Oh, I don't think it was the actors at all. I think there's. And again, what do I know? They turned it into a soap opera. Yeah, they kind of went into soap opera territory and the actors were so good in season one. So I feel like there was something behind the scenes. the motivation because it was her friend. This is so niche we're going on yeah yeah sometimes if they solve the problem and season you lost the motivation you lost the motivation and I think motivation it drives any good story you have to have you have to believe that the characters are actually willing to do what they're doing that's the problem with you know Hollywood these days is they see they see money and they're like let's keep making more seasons yeah yeah right too many too many happens the singular problem what we're gonna solve Hollywood with this conversation I feel like I should start our own studio yeah yeah Mr. call it Mr. Maple and pretzel oh we're getting a stretch he's just turn seven and so oh you're just shedding all over the place for us oh we don't care you probably no actually just recently I've started noticing here all over my clothes I was I think I'm covered yeah she's she's getting older and so I think a good stayed better yeah this adult there wasn't as much shedding at first yeah yeah oh my gosh they call it blowing out like it's the blowout season but I mean he does it like every month he blows out that undercoat it's just like all of the places but I can't see it but I have a husband who reminds me it's their constant no it's our car that shows pretzels oh oh yeah I saw it on the seat I just picked it up it doesn't come out yeah it's yeah we do not let Maple on the seats for that reason oh we have a dog bad that he's got his own bed okay yeah in the dog bed in the car yeah so there's a little but it's still it spills over did you have you met your new dog no so they kind of well because the well first of all I want to say the guide dogs typically retire between eight and nine and labs a little younger so eight is the typical time so he's a bit of a little bit of an early retire but I was just accepted for my successor dog the second dog they call it the successor not the replacement because Maple can't be replaced I love that but I was approved for that and the weightless is like a year to a year and a half and so this was at the beginning of the year so we're probably looking at the end of this year even into the beginning of 2027 so he'll be pretty close to eight years old but the reason we chose to share the journey because we were almost like let's not even talk about it until I know I'm going to go down and get my second dog but I wanted people to see also that a person with a disability and a service animal has to think about these things well ahead of time and really has to recognize the signs and he and I are so gelled you know I just like sense his enthusiasm and interest around guide work starting to dwindle and wane and and it's just like his energy level decreasing enough that I was like I don't want to push him harder than he wants to go but he I also want to be able to go faster and be able to do all the things that I can do while I'm still young and so it's like if he's telling me like yeah not into that I kind of want to chill do I still run yeah only on a treadmill well and even that's a little tricky for me but I do I do and I know treadmill but not I had to give up even when I ran the marathon I ran with a guide tethered to me yeah shoelace between them yeah we had a shoelace on our wrists very like do it yourself wait a person it was a personal personal dog and it went really well to the the stand where they were handing out bananas to the runners yeah that was a big that was tricky because people are eating the bananas and throwing the back of the okay the reason I was at the back is because the only person I can convince to run the marathon with me is like five foot one okay is that not terrifying though running a marathon where you can all you see is like a little tiny speck of vision and you're just like all right hopefully I don't hit anything like well but she was letting me know like she was like calling everything out she's a good friend of mine okay and she was like you know we were like really in sync and we practiced doing this a lot beforehand but like Matthew said they gave they handed out bananas to all the marathon runners like the volunteers were like handing out the lizard literally so by the time I reached the banana zone that feels like a cart it was a cartoon it was a cartoon it was thousands of mario we are slipping and falling she's calling out she's pulling it this way she's slipping I'm holding her up yeah yeah yeah yeah and we got through this like mine feel that's a really great friend you have she's wonderful yeah we did not come in last place I will say that and I feel good about it my pinky toenail fell off that's all I lost do do people run with their guy dogs do you know if I did never heard of that I wouldn't be surprised if it I wouldn't I wouldn't think I'm marathon like that's an incredible amount I mean we know people who hike with their guide dog oh yeah oh but like you I did a rod all those huskies pulling sleds oh I believe yeah I know nothing well okay here's my other question I had no idea actually about this process of getting a guide dog can you kind of walk people that don't know yeah like you apply for a dog and they've like trained this dog up for yep yep how long does it take to train well the the dogs at eight weeks are given they're raised at guy ducks for the blind and they're born there they they're part of a colony of specific dogs they are breeding for very exact characteristics so their best dogs actually just enter in that enter that program so that they can have the best and it's multiple different breeds it's not just labs it's mostly labs some golden retrievers but like maybe 80% labs a lot of labs labs are really trainable because they love food so from zero to eight weeks they're like held every day they have puppy cuddlers who come in every day so they're very accustomed to people very custom being held they practice already having them like walk over different surfaces because that's very important the dog that doesn't go around great so won't refuse to walk over different surfaces yeah and then be afraid of that at eight weeks they're given to volunteer puppy razor families so maple was handed off to a fifteen year old boy in Salt Lake City who was going to high school but wanted to raise a puppy guide dog and he and his family raised Mr. Maple and they had him for it's usually about a year and they have a big puppy manual they're the ones that like are teaching the dogs not to bark and to do the all the basic commands like sit stay heal lay down they have them interact and with the public socialize they'll arrange for them to like take them into you know to concerts and all kinds of things so that's activities and then and they only wear like a little velcro that's a green velcro best for a guy dogs for the blind and that that's actually how it starts because you were making that point about how do they know they're working and not so it starts as puppies they put on these little velcro vests and then that's when they get trained all the things and then they take the vest off and it's just the little puppy yeah yeah and then after that year they go back to guys dogs for the blind and then there's six months of professional training well with a guy dog yeah handler three to six through the six yeah it can be short and that's when they learn all the guiding skills that's when they get the harness put on they learn to do traffic and crosswalks and curbs and but only thirty ish percent of the dogs make it to graduation because it's so rigorous and not every dog is cut out for it and they can kind of like flunk out they call them flunkies or they well technically they say career change career change so maple's one of eight brothers he and only one other actually made it all the way to guide dogs yeah all boys great job they're very serious like they're a lot their owner or handler their lives are on the line yeah yeah and that makes makes me wonder as when that's financially conscious what is that cost not what is it what is the guide dog cost nothing for me because most of the organizations I know is shocking right because so much time money goes into them but if you were to go through guide dogs for the blind like I did it's the largest guide dog organization in North America they've been doing it for eighty plus years they have like twenty five hundred working teams out there at any given time but there's always new one starting and retiring and they cover the cost of the dog completely so it costs you nothing including every vet bill for the life of the dog even after their retire that's incredible yeah the only thing you have to cover is the food okay okay yeah they do want you to do that so yeah it's a very small amount really but they say the dogs are worth between sixteen a hundred thousand dollars that's how much when you get to them wow yeah right around there so it's like having a larger car so yeah yeah so they themselves cover the cost of this organization does yeah it's a nonprofit organization and well relies on donations so that's incredible donations okay yeah donations we do fundraisers for them several times a year just so grateful yeah they're an incredible organization they do so many great things so we talk about them a lot and we do fundraisers not be so great if you link them yeah we should link them so that the guide dogs dot com guide dogs dot com yeah that's all it is not profit based in America yeah it's based in Northern California okay yeah the headquarters is in San Rafael but they have a second campus in Portland where I where I trained with maple because it's a two-week training once they called me and this is what I'm waiting for to answer your question have I met the new one I won't know until it's like two weeks like pack your bags come down to one of the campuses we have a dog we have a dog for you they can't tell you anything about it until you get there and it's a total surprise but they have like a professional panel of people that like look at All of the things going on in your life your age your your your activity level your pace all the demands Etc. Where you live and then they match the perfect dog to that and so you have a two-week training program and then I go To learn that way you can just be in sync. Yeah, and I live on campus Yeah, and family can't come. They want no family interference because families tend to get to involved We'll help we'll want to help. I can't it's you and the dog. Yeah, that's when you got to take maple on a spa Mexico no we took them there really because one of his brothers Since we said his eight his seven brothers major marathon Mikey mascot matrix Murdoch and Madrid Okay, and one of them might is a service dog at the oncology ward. He's a therapy dog on the oncology ward at the Honolulu hospital And we reunited them last year. That's really sweet and they recognized each other They hadn't seen since there were eight weeks old. I'm gonna cry. Did you vlog that yeah, it was really hard I mean it was difficult to get maple in. There's a lot of people work. There's a lot of things to go through He's probably got a lot of certification though. Let make it. I think what helps was when we walked into the Quentin area Everybody there recognized them. They wanted pictures with maple. They knew who he was That's cool. And they were like I mean he we did everything correctly. He had all the shots he has After that we did not to do any of it So yeah, that was really cool and and yeah, so he and one other our guide dogs There's two facility dogs the one at the oncology ward major is a Working therapy dog at a high school. So he goes to school with the Comforts the student psychologist and comforts the students and there are two others We're canine buddies. Yeah, which is for children. It's like a pre guide dog or they don't really guide you But they can kind of be there with the child to help like training wheels for guide dogs for kids that aren't ready for the full Guide dog and I think the last two are pets now the last two are pets sometimes they choose just to be pets Has maple ever saved your life has twice yeah, what are the two what are the stories? Yeah, well both of them are downtown Seattle and there's this crazy intersection. They both happen pretty nearby. Yeah, each other And there's this thing that they teach that the guide dogs which really differentiates them from any other service animal And this one is it one that will flunk another dog like they'll career change if they can't do this one thing It's called intelligent disobedience So they're obviously trained to listen to every command right immediately forward left right etc And That is like that's where they get the reward. This is what they do. They follow your command But if they know there's danger that you can't see they will disobey you they you know Because they know what's best in that situation. So he's like overrides my command And there's been two times we're crossing the street and a car came whizzing through I think it was like an electric car both times because I didn't hear it Um a red light and maple then I was like a just stepping into the street and he turns his whole body and pushes his body up Against my legs with all his force to push his you backwards. Yeah, and the cardless like I feel the wind and I was like stun for a second. I was it happened so close to home. I came home and I was like Matthew I was still like I almost died maple just saved our lives And if I had had my cane the cane isn't gonna do that for me It's like that. So you probably take maple with you everywhere. Yeah, you probably don't ever just rely on the cane Oh never if that's not in downtown Seattle Been saving your life. Yeah, maple saved your life before. Yeah, that's incredible 100% What was the other? What's the second story? It was the same thing basically the same thing but like the car three blocks Three blocks down, you know, but not the same day not the same day. No, not the same day But like um there's the same situation him pushing me back from a from a card that was not paying attention or not following traffic laws Yeah, that's really cool. Did mr. maple come with his name? He did he came as a maple And we call him mr. maple because the whole family has emms. Yeah, yeah, they were an emulator So every litter is assigned a letter. They're all boys. Yeah, I don't know what was up. I don't know what the odds are of that This is totally random Yeah, but we've been reuniting him with 50 times seven Yeah, okay, is that what the odds are? Don't ask I'm like wow, you're good. No idea That is just over here. No, that's right. I said before. Don't have me to trivia I'm break is there a misconception people have about guide dogs something that's totally yeah so many The biggest one is they're not a GPS. Okay. Okay. A lot of people think like how do they get you places? I mean maple doesn't know Where I'm heading. I can't be like taking you to Starbucks. Oh, he'll just take me to a Starbucks. How is he gonna know now? If we go to that if location all the time and we're heading in that direction And of course he picks up on it and he can figure it out And there's a few places that we go where I like I barely have to give him any commands. He knows Yeah, yeah, if he's been somewhere once he has an amazing memory If you're kind of Headed in a direction and he figures out. Oh, we've been here before then he will Take Paul there He'll even like will pass a door that Paul went into once at some outside me or restaurant. He's out in me If I didn't oh, yeah, they'll like pull right up to it and Paul's like well, thank you very much But today we're not going there. We're going. We're gonna keep going So yeah, he's like when were you at that bakery you could never mind And and and the the misconception being That I have nothing to do with the guiding because as the blind person you really are a team You and your dog become a team. So you're working to each other's strength So I really do have to know where I'm going That means counting blocks and understanding where I am and orienting myself and having that basic mobility and orientation of my own And then the dog and I can work together to each other's strengths. There is a story I heard from your platform about you being denied in uber. Yeah, oh yeah, it's happened many times That's happened more than once. Yes Yeah, we're getting up there. It does uber have a function where you can say I have a guide dog I have a service animal. Oh yeah, and the driver I'm guessing is notified that but then they show up and they just tell you They're not notified till they show up. Oh, okay to stop drivers from turning them down because I don't This is I mean oh that's a good thing to have but then it can backfire That fires a lot because that okay not that you know we're very yeah We're like none of us are blind. We don't have a guide dog But one time one time because of our kids. Oh my god. No, the uber pulls up. We ordered an uber like XXL He's the biggest one you could get and he's like no, no, no, no drives off So I guess uber these uber drivers are just like They're not this isn't for me. Yeah, that is crazy. Can you report it? Abby did well. No, I just said I wanted to refund because he was I was like well Can you show me the app how I can get assigned a different driver out of the cancels because I'm gonna lose whatever yeah Like and he said no No, okay. I just won't we won't cancel the ride they can drive off But I won't I'll wait till they cancel it because I'm like I'm not gonna cancel it and you You just have to wait and they know that they can't take another ride till they can Okay, so it's just a waiting game. So I'll see you let them do it. How long do you have to wait for them to cancel? Everyone's canceled with him like I don't know. Maybe the longest was three minutes Okay, so they want their next job. Okay, they have a feature where you can't like be discriminated upon basically because of your Just Billy with a dog down. Yeah, so then they don't tell them until they show up But then they just sit on their own then there's they're also surprised. Yeah, it seems like there's got to be a better system Yeah, do they have any any like Robo taxis or Waymo's in Seattle right? Yeah, we're supposed to get them coming soon Yeah, because we we've got it here and it's create like it's just kids to Waymo's to high school. I'm getting used to that Yeah, but you see car crazy just in Phoenix everywhere. There's nobody in the driver's Wow, yeah, I think that's so interesting. I'm waiting for that because it's like, you know self-driving. I'm all about it Because I can't drive a car. I want to just jump in a car and let it take me somewhere Seriously, I mean, I think I'm up for women and children like if my kid was getting I much rather my kid getting a driverless. Yeah Actually, that sounds crazy to say. Yeah, when you really think about it But like with no adults safer. Yeah, yeah, it does. That's great does my people let their kids take them to high school Yeah, wait, what are we doing? Okay, we're we're in the presence of an author right now Tell us we need to hear more about these books So we've talked a little bit about the internet troll which of your books you've written a lot of social books Which one is your favorite? Well, my favorite would be the first one. It's Pringle and Finn. Okay, Pringle because it was inspired by our wedding So that's how it all started because I've always dreamed of illustrating Children's books, but Pringle and Finn are Matthew and Paul that's that's the answer And just like they are on that wedding cake on the cover of the book We had little figurines like that on our wedding cake in Mexico Paul illustrated them because when it was time to set up send out our wedding invitations He's like we need to take a photo. I'm like I don't want to take another photo of myself ever again You signed it for our kids that so yeah, I signed the ball But instead of telling him that I didn't want to take a photo because I knew I'd get a little pushback I was like, "Well, what if you illustrated us?" - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - 'Cause I was like, I'll get out of the photo. - So tricky. - He didn't wanna do it on the photo shoot. - He'll bite at that. - He hates photoshoots, by the way. And remember, Instagram used to be all photos. - Yes. - We used to be so glad that day was there. He's so happy. - And if you watch our content, it's 99% him holding the camera. - Yeah, I'm very happy with that. - He's happy with that. - I don't love this, buddy. - And so Paul did. He sent me the Pringle and Finn. And he was like, how about these on our, on our invitations in a way? - And he's like, which one is me? I was like, the taller one, he's like, he looks kind of fat. - I'm like, dude, it's a penguin. - So Paul quickly shot me back a text message where he drew abs on the-- - Yeah, I gave him an A-pack. - We didn't put that on the invitation. - And then when the pandemic hit, and there was like, very little for us to do, I said to Paul, I was like, why don't you write a book? He's like, what book should I write? And I was like, well, Pringle and Finn, I really popular with her followers. Why don't you write that story? - So that's the first, it's about teammates. They are imperfect, they make lots of mistakes, but the repeated line is, but they made a great team. Which really feels what makes a good relationship. - I love that. And obviously it's inclusive because you got two brides, they deliver wedding cakes. So there's two brides, there's two groomed weddings, there's bride groomed weddings, and then they get married at the end, spoiler alert. - That's what it happens. - And that's sort of how the whole journey began. And so obviously it's a very special book for me, because I couldn't have done it without Matthew. He is my number one team mate, encourager, believer in me, and helping me with the technology, and like how am I gonna like, 'cause I was at the point where I stopped painting, 'cause I couldn't see the canvas anymore, I stopped working. My art, I was like, what am I gonna do? Because the vision was getting so bad, and he was like, you know, people are a lot of artists are using tablets now. So let's look into that, let's get you an iPad. - Yeah. - And like, you know, set me up with that, and that's how I've been able to create these books with the follow up was The Secret Ingredient, where they deliver birthday cakes, and at the end they deliver it to their own daughter's birthday cake, so it's kind of an adoption story. - It's an adoption story. - Oh, so this is an adoption story. So maybe a kid who's like, understanding adoption could read this. - Totally. - So you're like, ah, that's how adoption works. - Yeah. - And you're using, and it's through penguins, and like these cute little animals. - And lots of animals, and there's different families in there. There's two mom families, two dad families as well, as well as mom dad families, and I just wanted to make sure that everybody was represented, because for me, that was the impetus for all of my creations, is like, how am I bringing something different to this, the world of children's literature, because it's like, you know, I have a lot of ideas, and it's fun to write a cute book, but I want to write a book that feels meaningful to me, and as a kid who grew up with a disability, and knowing that I was gay and wasn't comfortable coming out, and all of that confusion, I felt like it was important to me to create books that felt inclusive, and represented different types of families, because we know two moms and two dads who have kids and are raising kids, and they're like, we want books that show that. - Totally. - So our kids can see themselves in the books. - Totally. - So I was like, I need to do that. - That makes me think of when the Disney movie "Princess and the Frog" came out, 'cause that was the first time that little girls of color were able to see a princess that was like them, and it's just like, I don't know. - It's powerful. - Yeah, especially if you're a part of a minority group, you want to be able to see your stuff represented. - So, that's cool, that's really cool. And I think the artwork, I mean, even seeing, I forget the, maybe it was like on your TikTok, I can't remember if it was YouTube, but just like your artistic abilities are so good. - Oh my gosh, thanks. - And you can clearly see that in the book, so I just think it's really cool, that you've been able to keep using that ability, even with your vision, with the vision problems you've had, that's just so cool that you continue to create and do what you love and adapt. - I never thought I would. I never thought I would at this point, but it's only because of technology that's really allowed me to do it, just having the screen and being able to manipulate things, like with the brightness and the zooming. - But I have never seen a picture, with my own eyes. - So I can't see any of those illustrations in total. I only can see a little piece at a time of heart. - So like when you're looking at, like-- - Like hold something up. - Yeah, let me hold up. - Okay, let's hold up the book. - Okay. - The cover of the secret ingredient. - So I'm looking at the cover, and I look up, and I can see the little girl, the little girl penguin with the bow in her hair, and I can see nothing else on the cover, and I can look down, oh, and I see another penguin, and then I look down, and he's got a bow tie, and then I look down at the bottom, and I'm like, oh, there's a little, there's like the alligator character. So I'm scanning, it's like looking, it's like a computer scanner that's taking in all of it, and then I've always been able to like, picture things fully in my mind's eye. - Yeah, I once asked Paul on the iPad, because he can shrink and expand the images to fit into his sight. And as I shrink down one of your pages, so that you can see the whole thing, and it got so tiny that I was like, well, okay, so you can see the whole page now, but you can't make out what's there. - Yeah. - It's like very fuzzy, obviously. So that's the drill. But I can see the composition. From an artist's perspective, I can create the composition of the page, but it's very blurry, obviously, I don't know, I don't have crispness or clarity, and then I can blow it up and see it up really close. So that's how I do it. But I trust Matthew is my art director. He's art directed everything I have done, and so I trust his valuable opinion. He sits down with the red pen, going through every step of the process. - No way, see work as a team, you're the editor. You're like, you're like, this isn't good enough. Go back to the draw board. - He is blunt. - There is no gentleman. We back, you come a long way. 'Cause you actually will lead with something nice, occasionally. - Oh, I have a sensitive. - I feel convicted right now. I give blunt feedback, and I'm working on it. - We work together too. - Yeah. - If that's, yeah. - Yeah, what's that like, guys? - We've been working on it. - We're in therapy. - Yeah. - We're in therapy. - Same. - You live and work with your spouse in this dynamic. It's beautiful in so many ways, but it is so hard. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I feel like we actually just kind of learned, actually had a separate task. - Yeah. - We're like, it's better this way. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - You do, you learn to like, find each other's strengths and then. - And now it's not a conflict, really. - Yeah. - But for a while, that was like a back and forth thing. - Yeah. - Yeah, you can't trash shock your business partner when it's out. - Yeah. - Yeah. - We're taking somewhere else. - Oh, but I find, and I'm sure you relate to this, but at a certain point, it's like, when do you turn off the colleague work mind? Like when you go out for dinner, can we not talk about work at that moment? - Yes. - No, we can't. - We have a really hard time. - It's hard. - We make rules. We can't talk about the kids or work if we're on a date. (laughing) - What are you even talking about? - Especially when like, your work is-- - The Roman Empire. - When you do, when you do what you love. And so like, the hobby of it and your art all gets mixed up into one. - Yeah. - And I don't know, like, I'm ADHD, so I'll get hyper focused on something and it's all I want to talk about. Usually it's work. - Yeah, yeah. - It's like, kind of shut that off, right? - That's Paul. - The other day, we were on a walk. We'd do an evening walk and Paul was like, "Okay, so we can't talk about work." And I was just like, "Silent." (laughing) Oh, no. - No, no, no, no, no. - News, news, news, what's it? What's the news? - News. - Okay. And we struggled. - We do struggle. - Because it's, because like you said, it's a passion too. - So it takes over every corner of your life and we love what we do and like we're entrepreneurs. We created this whole business together. If we stop, the whole thing can stop, right? There's not somebody else making a go. - And you're self-publishing, which is really impressive. It's not like you have somebody that's helping with the distribution necessarily. You're doing that all on your own. - Yes. - And so it's people that are seeing your content, going to your website and then pressing the purchase button, right? - Yeah. - That's kind of how you make your money. And then we have a dedicated, wonderful employee and she goes to into the warehouse and she gets the orders and she's fulfilling them. And you know, if we're running out of books, we have to place the reorders and that's brilliant at all that. - He is like Mr. Spreadsheets, Mr. Backend. Like I am just the creative imagination person. Like don't ask me to like make any sense of how it's gonna become something. I've always said I'm a dreamer, he's a doer. So like if that's one piece of advice I give for anybody looking for the list up I'm like, if you're a dreamer, find your doer, if you're a doer, find your dreamer because you both need each other. - Are you, so are you like the Steve Woznyak? Steve Woznyak and you're the Steve Jobs? - Yeah. - Okay. That's cool. - Probably like, okay, this is my next idea and I'm like, okay, let's see. How do we make that happen? We need A, B and then C and then D, yeah. - That's cool. - That's really cool. - We're pringling then. (laughing) - 18. Like what's been the biggest challenge you've faced? Self-publishing, doing this by yourself. You're not kind of just like figuring it out, you know? - Yeah. - Staying restocked, like placing orders and because it comes from overseas, like being able to project and order enough and we don't have like huge warehouses, like a lot of these publishers have. So forecasting like sales, like there was a time when we worked like just completely out because the secret ingredient just caught on and thousands of people were buying it and all of a sudden we're like, "Whoops, okay, we're out, we don't have anything." - Yeah, we've been building the plane while flying it in this regard, like we didn't set out to create our own little mini boutique publishing company but that's essentially what Matthew has done with me. I'm like the sole author illustrator. He is the guy. You know, he's like, okay, we're gonna start a little publishing company. You're the only one producing the books. Hurry up, Paul. Hurry up. We need more books. And, you know, there's a lot of challenges, inherent challenges with that. Just figuring out, like he said, like the stock and like, oh, where to warehouse things and just like the timing and the volatility of social media in general because like you can't predict when things are going to go up or down and then just trying to get into the broader markets. Like we can't get into the national distribution system, which would allow us to get into traditional bookstores. We can do bookstores on a case by case basis, but we can't get into the distribution system. It's complicated because this is like, we're too small. You have to be a bigger publisher. You have to be putting out like 10 titles a year or something, like, it's a lot. Paul can't do 10 books a year. I can't do that. I cannot do that. But we are traditionally published overseas and they take care of all those things for us. So we do have that experience for translation. For translation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's been exciting. I have to say like, it's so exciting to learn as you go and figure it out on your own, especially if you have a good teammate, especially if you're not alone. Yeah. I think it can be so rewarding. The most rewarding way to do it. Yeah. I'm so happy for you guys. I'm excited to get to read these books to our kids and and thank you for that. They're the perfect age for me. They're all for like three to seven. So I love animals. Oh, perfect. I, Griffin, I know he wanted it. When he was in here earlier, he really wanted to grab this like stuffed animal. But I am, you know, thankful that he was able to let us have said he gets the lion man. I know. Well, he took August because that's the little Leo for August. Oh, Griffin already said it's his. No. I don't know what to tell you. We'll have to hash that out. Yeah, I'll figure that out. As I told him, sometimes they're like, solve your own problem. Anything else that we haven't touched on that we shouldn't touch on before we wrap up? What did I make sure? I think we're good. Oh, my. You were so awesome. I know. I felt like we laughed and we cry. Like we had like every range of emotions. Yeah, I mean, that was a journey. That was a great question. Thank you. You guys are so good at this. You guys are so good. I like you're so like on top of it. Just with the storytelling and there were times I'm like, I want to ask a question. Then you covered it. Like, you got, you got a second. Yeah. While we've all been doing this for a while, you know, we got to know. But it's really fun to sit down with people that we have so much in common. Another couple that does what we do is is rare. So rare to meet. And thank you for making this so comfortable. Like, you guys are so natural and easy and fun to talk to. That's so nice. Thank you. Thank you. Likewise. Seriously, thanks for making the journey out here. Oh, yeah. Our pleasure. Yeah, safe travels back to Seattle. Yeah, we got to go right to the airport. I know. Yeah, what time is your flight? It's in like two hours. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Good. Yeah. Well, where's the best place for people to connect with you online? We're Matthew and Paul. Yeah. Matthew and Paul TikTok Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, even Snapchat. We're on Snapchat. I didn't even know that. But yeah, we're everywhere. Matthew and Paul. And then I also have Paul Castle studio. But like the Michael Castle studio dot com. Castle studio dot com. Okay. All my books and plushies are available as well as, you know, wallmart dot com amazon. All that. They're on there too. Oh, okay. The books are on wall and wallmart. Well, they're on wallmart dot com. Okay. And we're getting into target. I'm worried about like their publishing thing. Yeah. Yeah. Very neat. Oh, yeah. That's big. That's big. Congrats. You guys. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. And we will have to stay in touch because this was this was great. It was great talking to you. I hope so. Yeah. Thank you.