Escaping a cult, going blind, & retiring my guide dog w/ Matthew and Paul

Olen Shannon Maldonado, käsintehtyjä artesaanitua teita myyvän jaujialahjakaupan perustaja. Valitsin Shopify, koska alustoja testatessani totesin sen ehdottomasti yhdeksi helpokäyttöisimmistä alustoista. Minulla oli tärkeää pohtia kehittymistämme tulevaisuudessa. Kaikki myyntiin tarvittavat työkalut, kuten varaston suunnittelu ovat kätevästi dashboardissa. Aloita ilmainen kokeilu Shopify piste komsi vustolla. Minulla on tärkeää kokeilu, kuten varaston suunnittelu on käittymistämme. Kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten varaston suunnittelu, kuten varaston suunnittelu, kuten varaston suunnittelu, kuten varaston suunnittelu, kuten varaston suunnittelu, kuten varaston suunnittelu, kuten varaston suunnittelu, kuten varaston suunnittelu, kuten varaston suunnittelu, kuten varaston suunnittelu, kuten varaston suunnittelu, kuten varaston suunnittelu, kuten varaston suunnittelu, kuten varaston suunnittelu. 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Kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu. Kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu. - Kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu. Hän hän olemme kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu. Kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu. Kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu, kuten olet järjestelmän kokeilu. Tämä on seuraava, että se on järjestelmä. Se on järjestelmä, että se on järjestelmä, että se on järjestelmä, että se on järjestelmien. Se on järjestelmä, että se on järjestelmä, että se on järjestelmä, että se on järjestelmä, että se on järjestelmien. Järjestelmä, että se on järjestelmä. And because I'm a little brother and I had a big brother and I was like, well, he can see it. So I'm gonna pretend I can see it because enough of this, he's having too much fun. So I faked being able to see things like that for years out of shame, embarrassment, and not wanting to feel different. But as that progressed into being really clumsy in low-lit restaurants or getting into accidents when it was dusk. So I was just labeled as accident prone. They didn't think anything was wrong with my eyes because by the way, I was already wearing glasses. I, the disease I have affects the retina of the eye, it's the back of the eye. And we're tested in school for like, is your acuity good? That's a different part of the eye. That's the lens of your eye. So they don't test for retinitis pigmentosa, is what I'm saying. It's kind of a rare thing. And so they thought, well, we have glasses for Paul and I'm thinking, this is supposed to correct my vision. So it's not a vision problem. What's going on? I guess I'm just clumsy. And then at 16, I was learning to drive a car. Then like my second time behind the wheel of a car, I nearly merged into some oncoming traffic. Everybody's like, panicking. I pulled over. I got an appointment with an optimologist and then specialists after that. It took like six months of testing, but I was finally diagnosed with this rare disease. So after that incident, you know, learning to drive a car and almost getting a crash, do you have to like stop that that whole process all together? Did you never get a chance to get your license? Not until I met this man. I never got my license. But this guy was like, what if there's a zombie apocalypse? I have a heart attack and you have to like get in a car and drive us to like, what if? So he took me to a big empty parking lot. Yeah, yeah. I took you to a big empty parking lot and you drove around, you know? They feel like freedom. It was crazy because I was like, my foot wasn't on the pedal and we were going. I was like, we're going. He's like, yeah, it just goes on its own. I was like, it does. He's like, yeah, you have to put your foot on the break. And like, I was like, okay, this is fast enough. Okay, we're just letting it know. You never use the accelerator. Just coasting. Okay, wait. I'm like, we're getting a little head of ourselves. Okay, let's rewind a bit back to back to how you guys met. Yeah, yeah. You met on a dating app back. Was it in 2016? Wait, that's what we started dating. No, and you guys got married in 2019, like we did. So parallel, parallel. That's amazing. Yeah. Okay, who was it that like, like, he slid into my DM. He slid into your DM stuff. I was on the app, which I connected, had linked to my Instagram. Yeah. Okay. And he then was slew thing on my Instagram. I went to his Instagram and I was like, whoa, this guy is all these incredible large paintings, like beautiful, surreal, colorful. So he's an artist and he was talking about doing commissions and shows and galleries. And then he'd recently ran a marathon. And I was like, wow, that's super cool. Half marathon. And it's not as impressive. That's very impressive. And he's blind. And I was like, whoa, how? How's he doing this? So I just reached out and started asking him. And that's when he started telling me about retinitis pigmentosa and we were messaging back and forth for about two months. At that time, I lived in northern Washington state and Paul lived in southern British Columbia. So we were just. I was in the Vancouver area. Okay. Just because the border. And so finally after two months, I was like, I should, you know, I should go up and visit. So I said, I want to come up and visit. And do you need to give me a painting lesson? I said, well, wow. I mean, I was like, absolutely not. This guy lives in America and I'm Canadian. I'm like, I don't have a driver's license. I'm not going to do this back and forth. I just like looking for somebody local, you know? But like somebody with low vision, like me, like finding people through apps and dating apps actually way easier than like, I don't go out to bars, clubs. Like, where am I going to meet somebody? And I was painting in my own home studio. And that's how it was had work. So I was not like I was going to meet somebody at work. But I was like, this guy's really interesting. He's really articulate. He knows a lot about my disease. He's going to apparently Google. And he sent me a clip of him playing his violin on stage with Andrea Butchelli. And if you're familiar, are you? You know, I feel like everyone knows that. Okay. Yes. I feel like an idiot. I don't even know. He's an Italian opera singer, but like crossover into like popular. Oh, okay. Yeah. And he's like, do I have to leave beyond off the checkout? He's kind of a big deal. But he goes back like 30 years, you know, he's been a big thing for a while. And you've heard of him. You've heard his. I've heard of it. I'm just big. Yeah. All right. He was, he wasn't alive during the Roman Empire. So you may know. That's right. And he sent me this clip. And I was like, you should have just led with that. I mean, it was, he was like in this tuxedo and in the lighting was really like, it was just like beautiful, but it was the playing. Obviously, he's so talented. And I was like, okay, you can come up, but you have to bring your violin and give me a lesson and play for me. And yes, I'll give you a painting lesson and return. And so that was our first date. That's amazing. Matthew was the, was the DM. Can you paint me like one of your French girls? Is that what you said? Titanic reference. I wanted to say that for so long. I was being bottled up. Oh my gosh. That's a, that's a cool first date, you guys. They're artistic. Yeah. Yeah. Two artists meeting. That's two starving artists. Like we were just like, I've had no two panties to rub together. And we were like, let's, yeah. I mean, it was like, I wrote in my journal that night. I think I just met my husband. I've never thought that in my life meeting anybody for the first time. I did not tell me that. Pro tip. If you feel that way about somebody, don't tell them after the first date. Wait, I actually, I told him in our wedding vows. I read the journal entry for the first time, three and a half years later. So I waited to let you know. Well, I have to ask it though, because I did, I did see this when I was scrolling through your YouTube thumbnails. It was like a thumbnail about the time that you almost broke up. What happened? How did you go from this like incredible first date and be like, I met my husband to like an almost ending? How did that, how did that happen? I don't remember this YouTube video. It was like a bit of a clickbait title. We were doing long form YouTube videos like three years ago. And it's like the reason we almost broke up. Yeah, and Matthew doesn't even remember why the truth is there's a couple things actually that we discussed in that video. And one of them was the whole blindness thing like entering a two-series relationship with a person with disabilities. We fell fast and hard for each other like fast and hard romantic comedy style like just like like get us to the courthouse kind of love. And I think it was scary for both of us to feel so in sync. And Matthew had a moment where a friend of his said like you're throwing your life away. This guy is going to lose all his vision. You're going to be his caretaker. And like is that really you really want? And I think there was a moment of crisis and I around that same time. Well, that's when I called my dad. Yeah. Yeah. So I called it my dad and I was like okay, so this guy I've been telling you about him. And I really like him. But like what do you think? Like do you think this is his disability should matter? And my dad was like no. He said you could marry a fully able bodied person and then they get hit by a bus and then they're in a wheelchair. Does that mean you'd leave them? And so he's like at least you know already what you're getting. You know it's not going to it's not a surprise. And so he said if things work out, if you feel like you can work with this and things go well and then then yeah, it shouldn't it shouldn't matter. So that was and I've always used my dad for advice. He's great. Anytime I want. I just tell him up and he's got good advice. So yeah, it was that was the reassurance that I needed to just like go through with it. So you've always been close with your dad like all growing up? No. No, due to the cold. My cold upbringing. I went through a number of years of like actually having no contact with. Really? And then as an adult, I reestablished that and you know now we talk and text multiple times. Okay, that's so sweet because I knew about your upbringing. So then saying that you had such a close relationship with your dad. I was like that's amazing. Is he still a member of the IBLP? No, no, he's out. Yeah, he did a 180. How would you describe someone that's never heard of the IBLP? How would you describe that cold? It's a kind of non-denominational evangelical base. But there's this guy named Bill Gothard who is a charismatic has a charismatic personality. He's very engaging excellent public speaker and he started I think back in the 60s and 70s going around doing these basic life principles seminars for just Christians and he just had good advice on how to you know live and be in relationships. And so he would go around to major cities and fill stadiums. It was very, very popular. And then through time after some time he decided to have an advanced seminar. And a much smaller group of people went to that. And then he then decided to create his own homeschool program, his own homeschool curriculum. And that was kind of like the third step. If you went through the basic and then the advanced seminar, then you liked it, then you signed up for his homeschool curriculum, which my parents did. And that was called ATI. That was called ATI. The Advanced Training Institute, right? Yeah, it sounds great. It doesn't want advanced training. And that became really a cult. It was all about whatever he said to do. And people really followed him in this very cult like mentality. And a lot of the teachings you started to get really. really strange and you know he was hearing from God every year and then presenting what God told him, had told him at that year's conference and everyone just followed him with this just blind, zealous enthusiasm. Thank you to Unreal for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. 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That was the curriculum. Okay. Because there was no television, no movies, no, even, okay, I'm surprised because you being a such a talented violinist was the violin, what you got really good at because you weren't allowed to listen to music so you just had to make your own. Partly. I mean, partly it was like we had all this time. We were homeschooled so violin could just become a big part of the curriculum. In fact, it was like so important that my mom would say it's one of the subjects you have to have done before lunch. Okay. I feel like a lot of kids I knew that were homeschooled were going to play the harp or the violin. Oh wow. Yeah. Bill Gothen was a huge fan of music. He really encouraged it. And he'd have all these families come up during the summer conference that like all played violin. Yeah. He liked violin. Really liked it. All played violin or played a mix of instruments. And so my brother and sister and I, we all played violin and so there was a couple of summer conferences where we were up on stage performing for you 60,000 people. Wow. The doggers sitting there front row. Okay. I was going to ask where there are a lot of siblings because we've actually had the pleasure of talking to a few of the doggers on our show. And so we kind of have learned a lot about IBLP for the adults but from an outside perspective obviously. But obviously I was going to ask if you have a lot of siblings but it seems like you have two. Yeah. Okay. And we felt shame around that because you were going to these conferences with these big families and you could tell the people were looking at you like where are the rest what's wrong? Where's the rest? Where's the rest? Where's the rest? Where's the rest? What's wrong with you? Oh my God. You know, because Bill Gothard took this verse out of somewhere in the Old Testament about a quiverful of arrows and he decided that that meant that a family who were supposed to have as many children as possible because a quiverful of arrows was as many children as you could possibly have. And then you were supposed to, I guess, shoot them out into the world to do good and you wanted to take over. Can you speak to keeping a journal entry of your childhood? I know like learning about your story. I found it super interesting that you had to hide your journal underneath your dresser and tape it underneath your dresser and from my understanding your mom ended up discovering the journal reading all of it. Can you like speak to that and what exactly transpired? Yeah, so I went on a retreat and it was during that time that it really came to grips with everything. And I was like, this is not good. Also, you know, the cult being gay was an abomination. So I was also in a lot of denial because I was like, well, this is who I is. This is who I am. This is who I am. This is who I am. The title of his new memoir. Oh, I'm skilled. This is who I am, but also it can't be because I'm not an abomination. I'm in a good person. I do what I'm told. I obey my parents and like doing everything right. So how could I be both things? So I just used that week, it was a retreat where you did a lot of journaling. You encouraged just journal and get your thoughts out. So I did and that's when I kind of realized like, oh, this isn't going to work. I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to leave at some point. I don't know when I don't know how to go about that, but at some point I will at what age about was that? This is around, but yeah, this is so interesting because I've helped him rebuild and understand the timeline because so much of it is just like due to PTSD. I have a lot of like, I don't like remember dates at all. I have big memories of these events, but I can't really place them. This is my other question. Were you raised in their Arkansas then? No. No. Okay, so I built, oh, Kansas. Okay. I built, he was worldwide. Oh, okay. Anybody could subscribe, pay the annual fee and get the program and just start following it. So where other families around you, when you weren't like going to big conferences. It was very common for people in the, in in IBLP, ATI to kind of end up going to the same churches. So the church we went to in Kansas City was like, probably 90 percent. Wait, did you say K, the city? Yeah. Oh my gosh. Wait, my brother lived in, I'm from St. Louis originally. Oh, yeah. My brother lived in Kansas City for a while. Like school in Springfield, Missouri. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, yes, of Ovalon Park, yeah. I don't know like Kansas City super well, but like my, my brother briefly lived near the plaza. Okay. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. This is really nice. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Small world. Crazy. And the other thing that was part of your cult were the institutes of the music institutes that you would go to. Oh, yeah. There was lots of, lots of institutes or summer camps, whatever you would want to call them that you would go to. Like mom. Yeah. They ranged anywhere from a week up to, you could go for several months and I was a big part of a lot of the music programs that were called sound encounters. And that was where all the kids who, you know, were really passionate about music would show up and we'd have like two weeks in one of his training centers and yeah, it was a lot of fun. And Matthew recently told me like you either did these sound encounters, these music things, but if you were in a music, you went to these like military camps. There were like these boot camps for kids where they were like, it was far more like militant, right? Yeah. There were a couple of options. You kind of had to find where you were. You were working camps. Yeah. There were work camps. You got a lot of free labor out of animals. Yeah. And Paul, like growing up near Vancouver, can you, like in Vancouver or just outside of it? Like just. Well, I was born there, but I actually was growing up in Seattle due to my dad's works. Okay. But just in the Pacific Northwest, yeah. What in your neck of the woods was it like, was your upbringing similar to Matthew's where it wasn't acceptable to be gay? Was that? Um, mind's a bit different because I, my parents were like Eastern Christmas church goers. I had a family member and aunt who was a born again Christian and her influence because she was the eldest kid. My mom's older sister. She kind of influenced all of her sisters to also sort of enter the church a little more seriously. Okay. And then at the age of 14, I actually was adopted by that aunt due to my mom. Mom has had continued struggles with alcohol and it's still not sober. But I was adopted by that aunt and I moved to a tiny rural Canadian town and was baptized and was thrown into the evangelical church. And this was the type of church where it's like rock bands on stage, the half pipe out back. It's like the cool, like born again, cool church. Yeah. Like these like Jesus freak, like three day concert events and with most pits and stuff. Yeah. But it's all very like it's a different brand. It's a different brand. It's a different brand to Christian. That's for sure. But at the same time, yes, being gay was a sin and I knew I was and that was not okay, especially in the small town. I was going to high school and so I didn't feel comfortable coming out, but I had come out to myself. I, my dad interestingly had moved to San Francisco. His work had taken him down there and I remember think I called him when I was 16 years old. I was like, Dad, when I graduate, can I move in with you? Can I come down to San Francisco? Yeah. Because I was like, there's the gay mecca and he's like, absolutely, you can. So I don't get marked that day. I just counted down the days. In the meantime, I just carried my Bible everywhere I went. And then when I graduated, I flew to school. San Francisco, made a bunch of cool friends in college, marched in my first pride parade when I was 18 years old, and so that was sort of my coming to terms with it. But it was difficult because, of course, growing up in that religious environment, I was dealing again with a lot of shame. Wow. Not to the intensity that Matthew has been had to deal with, but it's been interesting sharing our stories that way. I have a family member that is openly gay, like I'm so happy for him, and that's just been like, I've learned a lot, just getting to talk to him and be there for him, and so happy that you guys were able to find each other, and just have this happy life that you probably at one point never thought would be a possibility for you. So I think that's really cool. Absolutely. What I found so interesting about your story, Matthew, was just that, yeah, your relationship with your dad really wasn't going so well, and you ended up, you know, now you have other great relationships, but in that timeline, you ran away from home, right? Yeah. So when I came back from that retreat, and I knew that my time was limited, and I hit my journal, I duct taped it to the underside of a dresser, thinking no one would like reach under a dresser and reach up, and check the bottom of, you know, but my mom did. And so that was kind of the countdown timer. I knew I was going to be out quickly, and so I had my bags packed, I was prepped, and then one day things kind of went south really quickly. And so I went to the bedroom and grabbed my bag and climbed out my bedroom window, caught my car, and my violin. And my violin. He had to have his violin. And never returned. And my parents were divorced at that time, and so it kind of took me a number of years, at least five years to kind of find myself, figure out who I was, just even operating by myself in the world, was a challenge without all the structure that I had grown up with. But once I felt like comfortable, and I'd kind of like been through the hard work of rediscovering who I was, then I really felt prompted to reach out to my dad, and I did, and that just began, you know, a really incredible friendship, that a relationship that we just never had before. The support for today's episode comes from Square, and they've got big news. During Square's buy annual releases event, they launched a wave of innovative new tools to help local businesses run faster, smarter, and more profitably. Whether you're starting fresh, or scaling fast, Square helps you learn fast and get ahead. My favorite part about Square is that kids and neighborhoods near us are using it. So a couple months ago, we were getting hot chocolate at a hot chocolate stand and realized, "Oh my gosh, we don't have cash to pay these kids in this neighborhood," and that's when the kids were like, "No, you can just use a credit card and pay us with your credit card." - We use Apple Pay. - Because of Square, yeah, we use Apple Pay. And so I'm so thankful for them empowering the kids to a hot chocolate stand in Arizona. - I love the young entrepreneurs. - That's awesome. Maybe when our kids are 11/10, we'll have to get a little square. - That sounds fun. 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Like, you know, things like this. Where do you see more negative lines? - I mean, I think it shifted. I would say maybe when we started and we were sharing our photos. You know, we started off like, we were like, okay, we want to, you know, in 2020, pandemic, we're like, we had, we started a podcast. We're like, we got to promote the podcast and we were like posting pictures and things of our relationship and the podcast was just us having a conversation. It was called His and His, and it was just like about two husbands having a conversation, talking about their growing up gay, etc. And so we were making that the focal point of our content creation. And I think that's why we got a lot of homophobia and pretty nasty. You know, and we would try to create a safe space because we were trying to attract and build a community where people felt safe to be themselves. And so we were, you know, trying to stay on top of that. And it's interesting because I feel like neither of us took any of that to heart. Because we just growing up gay and growing up the way we did, we understand that that's just, there's just a lot of people that don't, that are ignorant and don't understand around the world. And it's not something that we take personally. But then when we, that we shifted, I would say about four years ago, three years ago, actually, to really focusing on being an interabled couple and talking about my journey with sight loss. And that is when this whole new crop of trolls emerged to accuse me of faking my blinds, a lot of blind deniers. - Really? - We call them the blind deniers. - Why do people, yeah, why would people say that you're faking being blind? - I think it's because Paul can look at you so well, like if he, like right now he could probably only find one of your eyes. And that's it, he probably can't even see your eyebrow, but just one of your eyes. So if he locks on, it really looks like he's like, can see you. And so often like when he walks around our apartment or he's, we're looking at the camera, he looks so able. - Sure. - And I think people have an expectation that blindness means like maybe your eyes are just white or they're closed. - I mean people will say sunglasses. - I mean, I don't really blame them because all I look at it as is this. - We all grew up seeing blindness represented one way in TV and movies, in books, right? It's like they have no vision, they have the dark glasses on, they can't see anything, right? They have a dog or a cane, there's nothing there, right? - Totally. - And the truth is like all disabilities blindness exist on a spectrum. There is a legal threshold, but then in that zone, there's like a huge variance of what blind people can and can't see. In fact, 93% of the blind community can see something. They have something called functional vision, whether that's just light and shadows, whether it's just the peripheral vision, they can just see out at the corner and there's nothing in front of them, or like me, it's like looking through a pinhole or just like looking through a straw. - I had no idea. So 7% of blind people have the type of blindness where they don't see anything. - Right, right, right, right. - And they call themselves totals. Totals, like I'm a total. - Really? - Yeah, I'm a total. - Which you've just learned. - I have it online communities of totals are like totals. What's that? - Yeah, and so I think coming online and talking about blindness that way and it not looking the way people expect it to look, just upset them. You know, I just like, they're like, you're faking it, you're faking it for clout, you're faking it for views, you're making it all this up, I just not buying it. And we approach that with gentleness and education. - Yeah, but that's a kind way of describing it. - You're self, like. - You know, you're like, this is the reality of my everyday. - But I did elect to come online and represent something that I felt was underrepresented and I knew that there would be confusion. And so I see it as an opportunity to educate and change. And initially we had saved phrases to like explain the levels of blindness, like help people go deeper. We did visual. We even did like simulations on screen simulations to show what different levels of blindness could look like, etc, etc. And that was a lot of work in the beginning. And now we're at the point where if one of those people pop up in our comments, we see about 10 dedicated followers explaining it to them for this point. - That's awesome. - And so that's like seeing it in action that people really are getting it and spreading that. - But even in the early days, we could get some really nasty comment, send a safe phrase, you know, blindness is a spectrum, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then oftentimes they would reply like, "Oh, I'm so sorry. Thank you so much. I didn't realize." - And they were so rude at the beginning. - And it felt so good, it felt so good to get this like super rude comment, explain to them, just briefly. And then get such kindness back, you know, it just was a little bit of education. - I just say we have this rule, no clap backs. And if it makes your heart rate, if it increases your heart rate, just delete it. - That's a really great rule. I feel like we've-- - That is a good answer. - If it gets the blood boiling, just delete it. - Just evaluate your body in the home. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yep, it's gotta go. Sometimes that depends, that changes day to day for me though. I told that I was like one day, one girl. I got on my Instagram and was like, she's like, "Girl, the sunglasses are not it." - I was like, "She's gotta get blocked." - Yeah, it was just that day for me. I was like, that was dramatic. That was really lovely. - We've been on the block train too. A few times, it feels good, like I'm just blocked. But then I noticed like in other platforms, I'll see people, I've encountered comments of like, "Oh, they blocked me." And that's like a badge for them. They're like, "They are so happy that they got under your skin to the point of being blocked." So I'm like, "Forget it, I'm not doing that anymore." - Okay, good, that's good to know. - That's good to know. We're not giving them what they want. - Seriously. But that's where I wrote the book. - Appreciate your education so much. I think that's very, that's very kind generous of you. Like because that's not your, that's not necessarily like your job. - Exactly. - You've taken that on. I have a kind of curious question. It's okay if I ask. - Of course. - Okay, beautiful blue eyes. - Thank you. - Is there any correlation between eye color and this condition or like eyed issues in general because I was actually just talking to one of my friends whose son has like very light blue eyes. And she was like talking about the issues he has because of the color resides. I've never even heard of that before. - Right. Okay, that's such an interesting question. And officially the answer is likely no. I'm not a doctor, but almost everybody I've met with the condition or seen with the condition has these like really light eyes. Like there's a lot of overlap there. But then I know that these, maybe we need to publish a paper, Abby. (laughing) - I have no confirmation. (laughing) Zero. But they're just like saying like the bright sun like makes like squinting easier. And then I was thinking about me and you like my eyes are larger than you and yours are not super light. People are really dark eyes. And pictures I'll be like and your eyes are perfectly open. - Why do I feel like I'm squinty though in photos? - That's just 'cause your brow bone. - Someone listening to this right now, please comment down below if there's any basis like in a scientific evidence to this. 'Cause I actually want to really, I want to know. Let's create conversation in the comments people. - I want to know, and people love to do that. There's a lot of experts out there. - Your parents have blue eyes. (laughing) - Yeah, keep more next to them. - And my parents have blue eyes, yeah. - Okay, well then there's that. - There's that. - There's that. Well, interesting. I was just thinking about that. - Actually, no, I was born with dark brown eyes. You're saying they're blue now? No, it's good. - I'm like, stop it. I'm too cute, I'm too vulnerable. - You are too cute. - Oh, no, I didn't say cute. I say cold blue. (laughing) I'm not saying that, but that's funny. Thank you to Good Wipes for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. We're big fans of Good Wipes in this household. - We are. - And I don't think you need the details, but you can understand they come in handy. - Yes. Sometimes you just need a wipe a little bit extra. (laughing) - Seriously. - Now you got the details. - They really do come in handy, whether it's us or the kids. And also, they're just nice to offer for guests. Just makes everyone feel pressure, okay? - You know how our kids get a serious case of Booker Nose? I've been using the Good Wipes on their Booker Nose. 'Cause they just get, 'cause they just get so, there's so many like dried Booker, and you're like, how does that even happen? Just grab a good wipe, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh. Done. - Here's why we love them. - And they're so soft. It's not as like abrasive as like regular kids. - That's exactly right. The softness, the smell, the size, all these make these wipes truly perfect. They are made with plant-based materials, which feel much better on the skin than other brands, and especially toilet paper. I also appreciate that they are truly flushable. We're not worried about our pipes over here, like I would be with some other types of products like this. - Good Wipes once you're booty to have a sensational summer. By any two pack of Good Wipes at your favorite retailer, text them your receipt and get reimbursed almost immediately for one of them. For more details, head to goodwipes.com/unplanned. Again, that's goodwipes.com/unplanned. The snag-free pack of Good Wipes. - On the same sort of thought train, when it comes to, yeah, your parents, and then potentially you both becoming parents one day, have you thought about that? Have you thought about like, okay, like if we have a kid, you know, via surrogate, or a doctor or whatever, if it is a surrogate, you know, from what you were saying, there is the potential that your kid could inherit what you have. Talk, like describe what that's like from your perspective, 'cause I feel like there's probably somebody out there that has some sort of disability and probably is faced with the same sort of question of like, what do you do? - I would, first of all, recommend doing genetic testing because that's how you know if you're gonna pass it on or what gene it's present in, 'cause you have to understand that. Component, the biological part. So like, it mine's ex-linked, so I could only pass it, if I had my own biological kid, I could only pass it to a girl. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Okay, thank you, you're on it. You know the ex-linked, yeah, see, I'm, I know what I'm talking about, I is what I is. - And then she could only, your daughter could only, she wouldn't have it, she wouldn't have it. She would be responsive, 'cause it's the exes, so it would be responsive to potentially have it. But she could pass it on to a boy, 50, 50%. - Okay, that's a lot to think about. - So we're talking, my grandson, my habit, would have a chance. - And that's because. - If she had a boy. - If she had a boy. - If she had a boy. - She had a boy. - So is that a reason not to have a child is something you have to really wrestle with? And we've been down that road with, with. - Yeah, we actually thought we would have our first by now. - By now. - And we were old lined up. We had an egg donor. - Assurred it. - Paul sighted the family. A surrogate who volunteered. - And Matthew was gonna be the father, of course. And then the egg donor was gonna be a my cousin. So that was gonna allow us to have like this genetically, you know, it's close up we can get as a gay couple. - Oh, that is really cool. - Right. And we had the fertility clinic picked out and we were just like ready for it. And it kind of fell apart. - It fell apart. - All at the same time. - Out and changed their mind. And so that's just like, yeah. - It just changed everything, suddenly for us. And made us really re-evaluate and sort of pause and see like, okay, you know, we're just gonna wait for the next sign or signal and just see how it feels in our bodies because it was kind of devastating for that tall fall apart, but we need to take a minute. - That probably, I mean, I don't wanna like speak for Abby, but I'm sure, you know, us, we, I don't know if you know our story, but we went through a miscarriage last year. - Yeah. - And I can only imagine that, you know, that kind of, something similar, there might be that level of excitement that you had, just this, this sheer joy of like, having a kid and getting to become a dad and, you know, especially too with your situation with it being your cousin and you being the donor, like, that seems, I'm like probably messing up terminology here, but I feel like that was just such a cool thing to experience and for that, I'll do it away. It must have been, yeah, devastating. - Yeah, yeah, it really changed things. - Yeah. - It was a real moment of just like, to stop and pause and reevaluate. - It's interesting, you know, we haven't, we've talked about it publicly, like once. And, you know, when you think you kind of know what your life plan is gonna be, and you're kind of setting everything up, but what, you know, as I'm saying that, I'm like, how often does that really happen? - Yeah. - What is life without these little curve balls? And, but it did make us both really sad. I think we had to really sit with the sadness for a while and think like, oh, the future we thought we were building might not be the one. And would we be okay if that isn't the way it went? - What did you guys do to cope with that grief? - Not to. - What did you do to cope? 'Cause I know me, I mean, like for me, it's all creative. - Well, I'm in therapy, so, you know. (laughing) We both are big into therapy. So we both see therapists. We've seen like couples therapists, our individual therapists, so that's important. But I've all often processed all my feelings through art, through my art. So, you know, just through my illustrations and my painting and that sort of thing, is a way for me to process and feel, writing stories. - Matthew, do you do that with your music at all? - I don't, I'm too, I can't think about something else while I'm playing the violin. - But like, does it transmute any of the emotion for you? - It can process emotions even without me like, like thinking or verbalizing it. - Yeah. - Were you like a career violinist? Like, I mean, probably if you were at that level, like-- - Yeah, yeah, I was, it's so cool. - Yeah, it was my one single focus. Finding the best teachers was my mom's like soul focus wherever we live. And I got accepted into the pre-collegiate division of Juilliard in the Young A. - That's right. - And then Eastman, but book author was very anti-college university, 'cause he said that's where your kids would be secularized and won over by the world and, you know, you'd lose them. So I think that he installed that-- - Secularized, that's a tough one. - Yeah, secularized. Okay, so he instilled a lot of fear, I think, in the parents, like that was a dangerous thing. And so I didn't get to enter any of those programs. I still continued to study music and then, you know, got my first job, I got jobs anyway, because you don't really need a degree, it just matters how you sound. So if you play well, you get the job. So, I mean, I am sad that I missed those opportunities, but it didn't really seem to hurt that much. - So it seems like your mom was the one that kind of like-- - She was very musical, yeah. - She played like banjo flute, violin, and piano going up and all that was so unmusical that he got kicked out of choir. - Oh my God. - Something I think is really cool is how you incorporate your own life into the children's books that you write. Have you ever thought about, you know, the surrogacy story that didn't work out for you guys? That one doesn't have happy ending, at least right now it doesn't. And I'm hoping that you guys get that happy ending. But has there ever been the idea of putting that story into a book? - I am working on a book about grief for children and it's meant to be processing any type of grief, really, any type of loss like that, but specifically it was inspired by losing my older brother passed away four years ago, suddenly from an overdose. He was struggling with addiction after a foot injury which led to opioids and it was just a fast descent to fentanyl and then that was it. Um, yeah, that's been so interesting for me to go through losing him. Um, and I say interesting because it's just like, I don't know how to describe it to anybody. And obviously you guys have understanding around that with your recent loss. The grief journey is like a lily pad of jumping back and forth. Like it's non-linear, right? And you, you jump through all those phases all the time, you can be angry. And I just remember the bargaining from, or even when early on, like after he passed, I was like trying to make a deal with like the universe. Like can we turn back time? Like how can we find him? How could this can't be real? And then getting to the point of acceptance, but this is like randomly feeling angry at him. Like how could you do this to us? And so I've been working on this book about grief and loss for like, how could that, how can I make that digestible for a child that loses anything from a pet to like their grandparent or an adult who loses a child or somebody who loses a sibling or somebody who's grieving the loss of a future they thought they were building. And so I got this vision. My brother was a fisherman and he was a Pisces. And I got this vision one day while I was clean. I was, I always had the conversations with my brother now. Then I was like talking to him and I was like, yeah, I have to, I want to do a book about this. And this vision came to me of this image of a school of fish like a, from, from the side, you know, you just see the like the classic like triangular shape of a school of fish underwater, but like one is missing. So there's just this whole, there's this empty space. And I was thinking about all the things we do to fill that space before we can accept that the space is just always there. And like a school of fish, we continue to move forward in time, but that doesn't mean the space ever disappears. And some days it feels smaller, sometimes it feels bigger. And I wanted to represent that. So I literally sat down that night and drew the image of the school of fish. And I was like, this needs to be a book. So it's something I'm currently working on to process all those feelings. I want to read that book that I'm sold that, that just seems so powerful. I can just feel, I can just like, I see it visually like as you describe the triangle with the missing fish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's so sad. Like when you said the missing, like just that like that mold, I just, I can see it. And it just like, my heart is so just like something, you know, that came from my brother. I cannot take credit for that. That image came from my brother for sure, but I'm just a conduit. So I'm working on it. So sorry to hear about your loss. That's, thank you. Yeah. Really hard to, how did that affect your family? Like, oh God, yeah, that was, I mean, very devastating. Obviously, both of your parents, it's been so hard on. It was such an interesting thing because my brother is my only sibling. And then I became an only child. And for like the first year after his passing, I remember because it shattered my parents. Like I've just never seen them so broken ever. And they weren't together. My parents have been divorced for since I was like 10 years old. But individually, you know, just watching them go through the grieving process. And it nearly killed my mom. She's just finally actually finding some light for herself after these four years and trying to move forward. I'm really proud of her. You know, but I was terrified. Something was going to happen to me all I could think about any time I voted a plane across the street. And it wasn't for, I was like, my parents can't lose me too. I can't, they can't go through this. All I was thinking about, I was like, I have to protect myself because they can't lose another kid. Yeah. Yeah, it was the string. I never thought that that would be in a grip to me with fear for like a year. And I shared it with both of them individual. And they both said the same thing. They're like, Paul, you've got to live your life. Don't ever live that way with fear. Don't let fear rule you. And that would be more upsetting to us. That's wow. We thank you for opening up about that. Thank you for sharing that. We like got, we got really deep there. And I would be like, maybe you like it up for a second. Children's boss. That's about your wedding. Yeah, I want to know, I want to know all the details about your wedding because we all got married in 2019, right? Yeah. I know four weddings weren't really had. I know, one month for you guys. July. Okay. We were December. December. Oh, so you were really right, right before COVID, yeah. When did you meet in 2016? Because I have a theory about the summer of 2016. Oh, really? Jan 10th. Yes. We're about to hit 10 years. There is something about the summer. That was when we started, we were like flirting. What was your, what's your official like meeting each other? Well, what's your, like, what do you consider your first date? June came was our first date. First date on my birthday. June and a person. That was our first date. Yeah. We became boyfriend girlfriend. On my golden birthday. I turned 18. Oh, yeah. And the whole idea, my whole idea was like, all right, I'm becoming a man. Yeah. I'm turning 18. It's my golden birthday. I've never asked a girl out and I've never kissed a girl and it's happening right now. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, this girl is so beautiful and she's. I just happened to be there. She's so sweet. No. Well, I kind of got hit with this, like, this, you know, I don't know, early life crisis of, like, what am I doing? And then I'm like, here's this, like, this, maybe, maybe this is my future wife and hey, look, look at what happened. Wow. And it was on your birthday and you had the date and you had the kiss. Yes. Oh my god. That's amazing. But this is about you guys. I want to know your story. I love it. So we had been to Mexico, town, way south on the Pacific coast called Xewan Taneo near Xtapa, with Paul's aunt and uncle. And it was beautiful. It was a little fishing village, not super touristy, at least compared to some of the other areas. Yeah. And we both looked at each other and we were like, if we ever get married, it's going to be here. This is really incredible. And we were staying this beautiful bed and breakfast that had a rooftop pool that overlooked the entire little horseshoe bay. And this person, when was that the big, like, that was like at the, at the end of 2018? And I was like, well, if we're going to get married, let's just plan it now. And he's like, well, no, I want to propose. And I was like, well, get down on your knee then. And he's like, well, no, I want it to be a surprise. Yeah. Yeah. So I gave him like a little bit of an ultimatum. Yeah. Okay. Super, super ignorant question. How do you know who's going to propose to who? Well, it was, it was just that conversation. Really? That was it. I was, because I was like, I don't know. Paul didn't want it. I don't need it. I was like, no one needs to propose here. We're just going to get married. Oh my god. Yeah. We both want to get married. Okay. I have to talk. Yes. And I was like, no, no, no. I, I want to propose. And I want to surprise you. And I had never had the desire to do that. So I was like, okay, if this has like been in your heart, if this is the goal of yours, then you need to do it, but you need to do it within the next six months, or we're just going to start planning the wedding. Yeah. Because this place is going to get, then you is going to go. Yes. Yeah. So I had six months, and I picked a good spot, surprised him, and yeah, you're really really surprised me. Yeah. But it was like at the top of this snowy peak in Canada. And it was like, I was looking at the view, because like, again, my vision's just like at this little pinhole, and I look at my phone a lot to try to take in more of my surrounding. Yeah. So I'm looking all over. He's kneeling in the snow. Oh. He doesn't say anything. He just drops out of my view. I don't even know where he is. And he's holding out the ring. And my aunt and uncle are there filming the whole thing, or ready to take the photos. And I don't know how long were you there. I don't know. And then your aunt finally said, where is Matthew? And that was like, where? Where can you see him? And then he saw me in front. And he was like, what are we doing? Are we still in Mexico? No. It's Canada. It's Canada. Canada wasn't Canada, right? We made it. Okay. But the wedding ended up being in Mexico. Very cool. So soon as I proposed, then we were like, okay, now we can book the wedding in Mexico. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. Okay. And we had this tiny, tiny wedding. It was the rooftop could only fit 12 people. Oh, really? So they were like, you can invite 10 people. Yeah. Yeah. So listen to you. Yeah. And who did you invite? Well, our closest family members, which wasn't many, and a few friends. Yeah. It was very intimate. And it was funny because it was like seven years ago now. I feel like we were doing it now. Oh my gosh. It'd be huge. We would have to. Because that early in our relationship, we hadn't made a ton of mutual friends. And the interesting part about our lives, when we met was, we were both really starting fresh. I mean, Matthew wasn't out of the cult for even that long. Yeah. It's not like he had these lifelong friends. He's not going to be inviting Bill Gothard in his cohorts to the wedding. I can still live. You know, he's still alive. But he's been ousted. Yeah. He's not the leader anymore. But I don't know. Oh. That's a whole thing. Oh, it's still a thing. But it's still a thing. Many happy people or post shiny happy people that he got ousted as a leader. There's pre pre. Oh, it's actually in the documentary, they do talk about the allegations against him. Okay. Final episode. They do talk about him being kicked out. Didn't one of the doggers take over the role? No. Oh, okay. I thought they had a prominent role. Anyway. Shiny happy people was dramatic. Okay. But happy thoughts. Happy thoughts. The wedding. So we were up there on the, um, now I told you our first date. I made Matthew serenade me with his violin. Yes. It was a violin thing. And so when it came time to do our vows and I told you I read my journal entry to him, but Matthew wanted to play a song for his vows. So he brought his violin down to Mexico and he played, um, one of my favorite songs, which is the, like the Jeff Buckley hallelujah, uh, you know, it's a very overcovered song that everybody's heard of bazillion times. But it's like, it's so beautiful. So what is it for? Just do whatever you want and it was this really, really beautiful moment. And we had timed the whole ceremony to the sunset over the bay. And that was a mistake because right as we said, I do, and we're just like, oh, we, we look over in our entire wedding party is staring over at the sunset. It was just, like, beautiful. Nobody really witnessed it. So, yeah. It was fun. beautiful wedding. We had an amazing little dinner afterwards and they made this cutest little cake with these little figurines of us. Oh yeah, the penguins. And then everyone who came down kind of booked a whole week. So we ended up just all hanging out every day and meeting up at different places to do lunch or go on an outing. So it was like a wedding week. It was really, really cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you play It's Rating Men at the Reception? Do you want to know something? We had no music. No music. And that was Matthew's request. I had been, I had grown up as a wedding musician. I was like, I hate weddings, I hate playing at weddings. I don't want any wedding musicians. And then I think it was the day before the owners of the Bed and Breakfast tour hosting. And they'd actually volunteered to organize the whole thing for us. They were very, very kind. They'd be like, do you want flowers? We're like, yes, they're like, what kinds do you want? We're like, whatever's in season. And by the way, it's very cheap to get married there. Yes, very easy financially to have a beautiful wedding. Go. We love Mexico. We love taking our baby moons to Mexico. Oh, yeah. We'll do a Vowel. Yeah. We'll do that. Let's do it. That'd be fun. Yeah. Because we're 10 years. Maybe we'll do a decade of marriage. But this summer, similar to you guys, we're celebrating a decade together. Yes, that's the same. Got to do something special. Yeah, we're like, oh, this is our 10th this together. Oh, this is the 10th time. It's our golden because it was June 10th. Oh, I don't know. It's June 10th. It's 10 years together. And then we just got a call. We're going somewhere special. But it's right. Can we talk about it? We can't talk about it. Oh, it's a secret. It's a secret. It's not official, but it's going to be cool. Okay. I'll tell you after. I have to ask, is it true that Mr. Maple is going into retirement? Yeah. He is. Yeah. It's kind of young or a guide dog, but he started to slow down a lot. And it's kind of indicating, he's very, he's perfect in harness. Like he's up, he knows exactly what to do. He makes no mistakes. But he's kind of indicating that he prefers to sleep in the sun. Does he have any big plans for retirement? Well, he'll become my dog. He's excited about that. You know, so we'll keep him. We'll have the younger fresh guy dog. It'll be fun. A little sibling. I guess it'll be really cute to have. I think two dogs because I think a lot of the time he wants someone to play with, you know, someone to play tug with. Yeah. I have heard before that like dogs are totally different with their harness on. Oh, totally harness off. Yes. Which has blown my mind until our dog got trained because I was like, how could a dog know when they're working? Which by the way, we named our dog after after after the show in the dark, which is about a blind person. Oh, I know. Yes. Murphy. Yes. Yes. I've watched episodes of it. Yes. Such a good show. Yeah. It probably doesn't dip a dog as pretzel. Actually, yes. Ask. How does that show? I don't know that. Yeah. How does it depict blindness? Is it pretty not accurate? I love how they depict it because she's not totally blind. She has some vision, right? Yeah. Do you guys? Is this true? Right? She's not. She's not a total. I'm trying to remember if she is or not. I don't think so. It's been. We watched that. I know that phrase when we watched it. So yes. I would be a favorite. It's like Daredevil where the blind person has super human abilities. Well, this is a rope. This is a trope of income balance. What is this rope? Yeah, wait. The trope is typically when there's a blind character. They're like, it's they always have some super power. They're always sort of like because they, it's like going in the opposite direction rather than showing a person with a disability who's struggling. It's like show them with a disability and they have like kung fu ninja skills and they're so cool and they're like one step ahead of everybody else. I say you run with that. But like it's inspiring. Yes. It's certainly not a bad thing. But after a while as the blind community is like, I feel so like I could never reach this level of what's being represented from me. I just, you know, like, as some would actually come up with a realistic version. I want to see the make mistakes like I do. Has anybody for real come up to be like, so you have super hearing? Oh, all the time. That's my thing. You ask to start ironically and it's like a very common question. Actually, but can you echo locate people ask if you can echo, right? True. And can you do the little clicking? I click sometimes just to freak people out. But there's some truth to it. It's not super hearing, but when you do lose one of your senses, your brain just puts the attention and energy on some of the other ones to compensate. And it's not like I have more, I'm just maybe more focused on it. You know, more tuned into it. Yeah. Yeah. So there's some truth to it. Okay. I'm curious if there's any other show or book or like anything like that is just totally not realistic. What's interesting too is about in the dark is when I was, I was made aware of it because there was this article the Under New York Times did an article about how this person isn't blind and probably shouldn't be representing the character. They should get somebody who has at least some visual limitations because that was like the conversation at the time like actors, you know. And what's your take? I'm actually so curious what your take is on that. Oh, I got it. I'm going to get in trouble. No, because like my take, it's nuanced. Okay. I think we can go too far with the only somebody with this disability can play those parts. But I do want to illuminate the conversation at least a little bit. And here's here's the here's why that conversation happens to begin with. So they say there are working actors out there like me say I wanted to be a working actor. Well, I have a tiny bit of vision. It's going to be very difficult for me to land roles of sighted people probably won't get those right because I'm going to need a guy dog or a cane or something. So I might then be limited only to the roles like in the dark right where it's actually blind character and I can play that because you know, so if the sighted able body actors are coming in and taking the only roles that I could even have a chance of getting, it does seem a little unfair to the community of actors with disabilities. Totally. Totally. Yet at the same time, I am a big movie buff film, cinnophile, whatever you want to call me. I love movies. And I like to critique movies and critique performances and like at the end of the day is really go to the person who gives the best performance because that's what great storytelling is really about. That's good. Right. And I would hope that those blind people get a really fair chance in their showing up and the casting directors are seeking out the people with disabilities and saying, hey, this is what we want. So that's where the nuance is. We met. She was actually super nice. Yeah. We just randomly ran into her Disneyland. Yeah. And this was like five years ago. Yeah, we should put the picture up. Yeah. She's like way taller than me. Like everyone is, but I agree with your answer. I think that's, I mean, not that I really, I'm glad that you answered it because you're actually someone with the disability. Yeah. Talking about that actual issue. Right. But I think I think I, I like your take. I really like your take a lot. So you wouldn't want like that niche or that like, that to be the expectation and casting to the point where they're not represented. Right. You know, where it's like, okay, we can't find someone to fill this role or that's like auditioning for this. So then it comes at the cost of like not representing those disabilities. Yeah. That was my other, I wanted to say that because it's like at the end of the day, what's more important? We have this pool of actors that are struggling to find, okay, yeah, I understand. I have sympathy for that. But the person in that role, playing Murphy, is now representing something and educating all the audience members and all the people watching are getting to learn about it. And that's incredibly valuable. She did a really good job. Yeah. And I know she had people that with blindness, helping her and coaching her for anybody super confused about in the dark for the pretzel and the dark is a show on Netflix that came out in 2020 about a blind person that is solving a crime. It's like a crime show. It's really good. I like, I think season one was epic. My personal take is season two. It's not very good. Often the case, we've been having this conversation just like happening to show every great show. I feel bad for the actors. I was like this script for this was just, oh, I don't think it was the actors at all. I think there's, and again, what do I know? It turned it into a soap opera. Yeah. It kind of, it kind of went into a soap opera territory and the actors were so good in season one. So I feel like there was something behind the scenes. And lost the motivation because it was her friend. This is so niche. We're going on. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes if they solve the problem and season, you lost the motivation. And I think motivation drives any good story. You have to believe that the characters are actually willing to do what they're doing. That's the problem with, you know, Hollywood these days is they see, they see money and they're like, let's keep making more seasons. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Too many, too many happens. That's the singular problem. What? We're going to solve Hollywood right now with this conversation. I feel like I should start our own studio. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Mr. Call it Mr. Maple and pretzel. Oh. Oh. Oh, we're getting a stretch. He's like, I'm seeing the oldest Mr. Maple. He's just turned seven. And so. Oh. Oh, you're just shedding all over the place for us. Oh, we don't care. You probably know. Actually, just recently, I've started noticing here all over my clothes. I was, I'm think I'm covered. Yeah. She's, He's getting older and so, I think we'll see. because stayed better than this adult. There wasn't as much shedding at first. - Yeah, yeah, oh my gosh. They call it blowing out, like it's the blowout season, but I mean, he does it like every month. He blows out that undercoat. It's just like all of the places. But I can't see it, but I have a husband who reminds me it's there constantly. - No, it's our car that shows pretzels in here that were sold on the seat. I just picture that. - It doesn't come out. - It's crazy. (laughs) - Yeah, it's, yeah. - We do not let maple on the seats for that reason. - Oh, we have a dog bed that he can scan. - He's got his own bed in the bed. - Okay, yeah. - In the dog bed, in the car. Yeah, so there's some little, but still, it spills over. - Did you, have you met your new dog? - No. - So they kind of, well, because the, well, first of all, I want to say the guide dogs typically retire between eight and nine. And labs, a little younger so eight, is the typical time. So he's a little bit of an early retire, but I was just accepted for my successor dog, the second dog, the call of the successor, not the replacement, 'cause maple can't be replaced. - I love that. (laughs) - But I was approved for that, and the weight list is like a year to a year and a half. And so this was at the beginning of the year. So we're probably looking at the end of this year, even into the beginning of 2027. And so he'll be pretty close to eight years old. But the reason we chose to share the journey, because we were almost like, let's not even talk about it until I know I'm going to go down and get my second dog. But I wanted people to see also that, a person with a disability and a service animal has to think about these things well ahead of time. - It has to be long time. - And really has to recognize the signs. And he and I are so gelled. I just sense his enthusiasm and interest around. Guide work, starting to dwindle and wane. And it's just like his energy level, decreasing enough that I was like, I don't want to push him harder than he wants to go. But I also want to be able to go faster and be able to do all the things that I can do while I'm still young. And so it's like if he's telling me, like yeah, not into that, I kind of want to chill. Do I still run? - Yeah. - Only on a treadmill. - Well, and even that's a little tricky for me, but I do run on a treadmill. But not, I had to give up. Even when I ran the marathon, I ran with a guide, tethered to me. - Really? - Yeah. - Yeah, shoelace between them. - Yeah, we had a shoelace on our wrists. - Very like do it yourself. - Wait, a person? - It was a person. - Yeah. - An actual person? - So it's not a dog. - Not a dog. - And it went really well to the dog to do that. - The stand where they were handing out bananas to the runners. - Yeah, that was a big, that was tricky. - Because people were eating the bananas and throwing the pills right. - And I was at the back of the, okay, the reason I was at the back, it's because the only person I can convince to run the marathon with me is like five foot one. - Okay, is that not terrifying though? Running a marathon where you can all you see is like a little tiny speck of vision. And you're just like, all right, hopefully I don't hit anything like-- - Well, but she was letting me know. Like she was like calling everything out. She's a good friend of mine. And she was like, you know, we were like really in sync and we practiced doing this a lot beforehand. But like Matthew said, they gave, they handed out bananas to all the marathon runners. Like the volunteers were like handing out this-- - Helping hazard. - Literally. So by the time I reached the banana zone-- - That feels like a cart. - It was a cartoot, Abby. It was a cartoon. It was thousands of bananas on the street. It was Mario Kart. - We are slipping and falling. She's calling out, she's pulling in this way. - Banana. - She's slipping. I'm holding her up and we're just trying, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we got through the sights of mine and I feel the banana. - That's a really great friend you have. - Yeah, she's wonderful, yeah. We did not come in last place. I will say that and I feel good about it. And my pinky toenail fell off. That's all I lost. - Dude, do people run with their guide dogs? Do you know of any of them? - I had never heard of that. I wouldn't be surprised if it-- I wouldn't think of marathon. Like that's an incredible amount. - I mean, we know people who hike with their guide dogs. - Oh yeah, I'll put like you, I did a rod. All those huskies pulling sleds. - Oh, puzzle, I believe. - Yeah. - I know nothing. Well, okay, here's my other question. I had no idea actually about this process of getting a guide dog. Can you kind of walk people that don't know? - Yeah. - Like you apply for a dog and they've like trained this dog up for how long does it take to train? - Well, the dogs at eight weeks are given, they're raised at guide dogs for the blind and they're born there. They're part of a colony of specific dogs and they are breeding for very exact characteristics. So their best dogs actually just enter that program so that they can have the best best puppies. - And it's multiple different breeds. It's not just labs, it's-- - Most of the labs, some golden retrievers, but like maybe 80% labs. So yeah, a lot of labs, labs are really trainable because they love food. So from zero to eight weeks, they're like held every day. They have puppy cuddlers who come in every day so they're very accustomed to people, very accustomed to being held. They practice already having them walk over different surfaces because that's very important. The dog that doesn't go around great so won't refuse to walk over different surfaces. - Yeah. - And then be afraid of that. - At eight weeks, they're given to volunteer puppy razor families. So Maple was handed off to a 15 year old boy in Salt Lake City who was going to high school but wanted to raise a puppy. Guide dog and he and his family raised Mr. Maple and they had him for, it's usually about a year. And they have a big puppy manual. They're the ones that are teaching the dogs not to bark and to do the all the basic commands, like sit, stay, heal, lay down. They have them interact and with the public, socialize. - That's awesome. - They'll arrange for them to take them into to concerts. - Oh yeah. - And all kinds of things. - Lots of activities. - And then, and they only wear like a little Velcro vest. - Like a green Velcro vest for the guy dogs for the blind. - And that's actually how it starts 'cause you were making that point about how do they know they're working and not. So it starts as puppies, they put on these little Velcro vests and then that's when they get trained all the things and then they take the vest off and it's just the little puppy, yeah. - Yeah. And then after that year, they go back to guys dogs for the blind and then there's six months of professional training. - Well, with a guy dog handler. - Three to six. - Three to six, yeah, it can be short. And that's when they learn all the guiding skills. That's when they get the harness put on. They learn to do traffic and cross walks and curbs and but only 30-ish percent of the dogs make it to graduation because it's so rigorous and not every dog is cut out for it. And they can kind of like flunk out. They call them flunkies. Or they, well, technically they say career change. - Career change. - So Maple's one of eight brothers. He and only one other actually made it all the way to guide dogs. Yeah, all boys have a job. - It's very serious, it's like they're a lot, they're owner or handler, their lives are on the line. - Yeah, and that makes sense. - Makes me wonder, S1, that's financially conscious. What is that cost? - No, that's not even sure the coverage is. - What is a guide dog cost? - Cost nothing for me because most of the organizations, I know it's shocking, right? Because so much time money goes into them. But if you were to go through guide dogs for the blind, like I did, it's the largest guide dog organization in North America, they've been doing it for 80 plus years. They have like 2,500 working teams out there at any given time, but there's always new one starting and retiring. And they cover the cost of the dog completely. So it costs you nothing including every vet bill for the life of the dog even after they retire. - That's incredible. - That's amazing. - The only thing you have to cover is the food. - Okay, okay. - Yeah, they do want you to do that, so. - That's, yeah. - It's a very small amount, really. But they say the dogs are worth between $16,000, $100,000. That's how much is it for them to get to them? - Wow. - Yeah, right around there. So it's like having a large room car. - Oh, right. - Yeah, that, yeah. - So they themselves cover the cost of this organization does. - Yeah, it's a nonprofit organization and it relies on donations. - So that's incredible. - Donations, okay. - Yeah, donations. We do fundraisers for them several times a year, just because we're so grateful. - Yeah. - Hardcast. - They're an incredible organization. They do so many great things. So we talk about them a lot, and we do fundraisers. - Yeah. - It'd be so great if you linked them. - Yeah, we should link them, so the, - Just guide dogs.com. - guide dogs.com. That's all it is. - That's all it is. - That's all it is. - It's a nonprofit based in America, somewhere. - It's based in Northern California. - Okay. - Yeah. The headquarters is in San Rafael, but they have a second campus in Portland, Oregon, where I, where I trained with Maple. 'Cause it's a two week training. Once they called me, and this is what I'm waiting for. To answer your question, have I met the new one? I won't know until it's like two weeks, like pack your bags, come down to one of the campuses. - We have a dog for you. - They can't tell you anything about it until you get there, and it's a total surprise, but they have like a professional panel of people that like look at all of the things going on in your life, your age, your activity level, your pace, all the demands, et cetera, where you live, and then they match the perfect dog to that lifestyle. - And so you have a two week training program with your dog to learn everything. Is that what you can just be in sync when you just cross the street? - Yeah, and I live on campus. Yeah, and family can't come. They want no family interference, 'cause families tend to get too involved. - We'll help. - We'll want to help. - We can't. - It's you and the dog. - Yeah. - You've got a dog. - That's when you got to take Maple on a spa. - Yeah, the Maple and I will go to Hawaii. - You're going to Hawaii? - No, dogs, I don't-- - I'm not a dog. - I'm a dog. - Mexico and Neurologm. - No, we took them there. - Really? - Because one of his brothers, since we said his seven brothers, Major, Marathon, Mikey, mascot, Matrix, Murdoch, and Madrid. - Okay. - And one of them, Mikey, is a service dog at the oncology ward. He's a therapy dog on the oncology ward at the Honolulu Hospital, and we reunited them last year. - That's right. really sweet. And they recognized each other. They hadn't seen since there were eight weeks old. I'm not correct. Did you vlog that? Of course. Yeah. That's beautiful. It was incredible. And it was really hard. I mean, it was difficult to get maple in. There's a lot of people working. There's a lot of things to go through. He's probably got a lot of certifications, though, that make it. I think what helps was when we walked into the quarantine area, everybody there recognized them. They wanted pictures with maple. They knew who he was. That's cool. And they were like, "I mean, we did everything correctly." He had all the jobs he has after that. We didn't have to do any of it. That's sweet. So yeah, that was really cool. And yeah, so he and one other are guide dogs. There's two facility dogs, the one at the oncology ward. Major is a working therapy dog at a high school. So he goes to school with the comforts of the students. Psychologist and comforts the students. And there are two others. We're canine buddies, which is for children. It's like a pre-guide dog, or they don't really guide you, but they can kind of be there with the child to help. Like training wheels for guide dogs for kids that aren't ready for the full guide dog. And I think the last two are pets. Now the last two are pets. Sometimes they choose just to be pets. Has maple ever saved your life? Twice. Twice. Yeah. What are the two? What are the stories? Yeah, well, both of them are downtown Seattle. And there's this crazy intersection. They both happen pretty nearby to each other. And there's this thing that they teach that the guide dogs, which really differentiates them from any other service animal. And this one is one that will flunk another dog. Like they'll career change if they can't do this one thing. It's called intelligent disobedience. So they're obviously trained to listen to every command, right? Immediately, forward, left, right, etc. And that is like, that's where they get the reward. This is what they do. They follow your command. But if they know there's danger that you can't see, they will disobey you. They, you know, because they know what's best in that situation. So he's like, overrides my command. And there's been two times we're crossing the street. And a car came whizzing through, I think it was like an electric car, both times, because I didn't hear it. A red light. And maple, then I was like, I'm just stepping into the street. And he turns his whole body and pushes his body up against my legs with all his force to push his you backwards. And the card was like, if you feel the wind. And I was like, stunned for a second. It happened so close to home. I came home and I was like, Matthew, I was still like, I almost died. Maple just saved our lives. And if I had had my cane, the cane isn't going to do that for me. It's like that. So you probably take maple with you everywhere. You probably don't ever just rely on the cane. Oh, never. If that's not in downtown Seattle, but saving your life. Yeah. Maple saved your life before. Yeah. That's incredible. 100 percent. What was the other? What's the second story? It was the same thing. Basically the same thing, but like three blocks, three blocks down, you know, but not the same day. Not the same day. No, not the same day, but like just the same situation. Him pushing me back from a card that was not paying attention or not following traffic laws. Yeah. That's what Mr. Maple come with his name. He did. He came as a maple. Maple. And we call him Mr. Maple. Because the whole family has in them. Yeah. Yeah. They were in M litter. So every litter is assigned a letter. They're all boys. Yeah. I don't know what was up with that. I don't know what the odds are of that. This is totally random. Yeah. But we've been reuniting him with 50 times seven. Okay. Is that what the odds are? I don't ask. I was like, wow, Abby, you're good. No idea. That is just over here. This is what I said before. Don't have me do trivia. Is there a misconception people have about guide dogs? Something that's totally the biggest one is they're not a GPS. Okay. Okay. A lot of people think like how do they get you places? I mean, Maple doesn't know where I'm heading. I can't be like taking me to Starbucks. He'll just take me to a Starbucks. How is he going to know? Now, if we go to that location all the time and we're heading in that direction, of course, he picks up on it and he can figure it out. There's a few places that we go where I like, I barely have to give him any commands. He knows. Yeah. Yeah. If he's been somewhere once, he has an amazing memory. If you're kind of headed in a direction and he figures out, oh, we've been here before, then he will take Paul there. He will even like, we'll pass a door that Paul went into once at some store. He's out in me. He's out in me. If I didn't, he'll like pull way it up to it. And Paul's like, well, thank you very much, but today we're not going now. We're going, we're going to keep going. So yeah, he's like, when were you at that bakery? You could never buy him. And the misconception being that I have nothing to do with the guiding because as a blind person, you really are a team. You and your dog become a team. So you're working to each other's strength. So I really do have to know where I'm going. That means counting blocks and understanding where I am. And orienting myself and having that basic mobility and orientation of my own. And then the dog and I can work together to each other's strengths. There is a story I heard from your platform about you being denied in Uber. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's happened many times. That's happened more than once. Yes. How many times have I do the eight? Five, six, seven. We're getting up there. It does Uber have a function where you can say, I have a guide dog, I have a service animal. Oh, yeah. And the driver, I'm guessing, is notified that. But then they show up and they just are not notified till they show up. Oh, okay. To stop drivers from turning them down. Because I don't, this is, I mean, oh, that's a good thing to have. But then it can backfire. Fire is a lot because that, okay, not that, you know, we're very, yeah, we're like, none of us are blind. We don't have a guide dog. But one time, one time because of our kids. Oh, my God. No, Uber pulls up. We ordered an Uber like XXL like the biggest one you could get. And he's like, no, no, no, no, drives off, drives off. He saw us, the two to get their car seats. Yes. So I guess Uber, some of these Uber drivers are just like, no, access. They're not for me. Yeah. That is crazy. Did you report it? Abby did. Well, no, I just said, I wanted to refund because he was, I was like, well, can you show me the app how I can get a sign of different drive around to cancel us because I'm going to lose whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Like, and he said, no, okay. I just won't, we won't cancel the ride. They can drive off, but I won't, I'll wait till they cancel it because I'm like, I'm not going to cancel it. And you, you have to wait. And they know that they can't take another ride till they can. Okay. So it's just a waiting game. So how long do you have to wait for them to cancel? Everyone's canceled within like, I don't know. Maybe the longest was three minutes. So they want their next job. Okay. They have a feature where you can't like be discriminated upon basically because of your disability with a dog. They're trying to cut down. Yeah. So then they don't tell them until they show up. But then they just sat on their own. Then they're, they're also surprised. Yeah. It seems like there's got to be a better system. Do they have any, any like Robo Taxis or Waymos in Seattle right now? Yeah. We're supposed to get them coming soon. Okay. Yeah. Because we've got it here. And it's like, it's just I'm way most of high school. I'm getting used to that. Yeah. But you see cars crazy. Just in Phoenix everywhere. There's nobody in the driver's room. Wow. Yeah. I think that's so interesting. Right. I'm waiting for that because it's like, you know, self-driving. I'm all about it because I can't drive a car. I want to just jump in a car and let it take me somewhere. Seriously. I mean, I think I'm up for women and children. Like if my kid was getting, I'm much rather my kid getting a driverless. Yeah. Actually, that sounds crazy to say. Yeah. When you really think about it. But like with no, a little safer. Yeah. Yeah. It does. That's great. It does. That's why people let their kids take them to high school. Yeah. What are we doing? Okay. We're in the presence of an author right now. Tell us, we need to hear more about these books. So we've talked a little bit about the internet troll. Which of your books? You've written a lot of social books. Which one is your favorite? Well, my favorite would be the first one. It's Pringle and Finn. Okay. Pringle. Because it was inspired by our wedding. So that's so sweet. That's how it all started. Because I've always dreamed of illustrating children's books. But Pringle and Finn are Matthew and Paul. That's the answer. And just like they are on that wedding cake on the cover of the book, we had little figurines like that on our wedding cake in Mexico. Paul illustrated them because when it was time to send out our wedding invitations, he's like, we need to take a photo. I'm like, I don't want to take another photo of myself ever again. You signed it for our kids. Yeah, I signed them all. But instead of telling him that I didn't want to take a photo because I knew I'd get a little push back. I was like, well, what if you illustrated us? Yeah. Yeah. Cause I was like, I'll get out of the photo. He didn't want to do it on the photo shoot. He hates photoshoots by the way. And remember, Instagram used to be all photos. Yes. We used to be so glad that day is there. So happy. And if you watch our content, it's 99% him holding the camera. Yeah, he's happy with that. And so Paul did. He sent me the Pringle and Finn. And he's like, how about these on our on our invitations? And he's like, which one is me? I was like, the taller one. He's like, he looks kind of fat. I'm like, dude, it's a penguin. So Paul quickly shot me back a text message where he drew abs on the. Yeah, I gave him a pack. We didn't put that on the invitation. And then when the pandemic hit, and there was like, very little for us to do, I said to Paul, I was like, why don't you write a book? And he's like, what book should I write? And I was like, well, Pringle and Finn are really popular with her followers. Why don't you write that story? So that's the first. It's about T. He mates, they are imperfect. They make lots of mistakes, but the repeated line is, but they made a great team, which really feels what makes a good relationship is good team. - I love that. And obviously it's inclusive because you got two brides, they deliver wedding cakes. So there's two brides, there's two groomed weddings, there's bride groomed weddings, and then they get married at the end, spoiler alert. - That's what it happens. - And that's sort of how the whole journey began. And so obviously it's a very special book for me because I couldn't have done it without Matthew. He is my number one teammate, an encourager, believer in me, and helping me with the technology, and like, how am I gonna like, 'cause I was at the point where I stopped painting, 'cause I couldn't see the canvas anymore, I stopped working. My art, I was like, what am I gonna do? Because the vision was getting so bad, and he was like, you know, people are, a lot of artists are using tablets now, so let's look into that, let's get you an iPad. - Yeah. - And like, you know, set me up with that, and that's how I've been able to create these books with these, the follow up was the secret ingredient where they deliver birthday cakes, and at the end they deliver it to their own daughter's birthday cake, so it's kind of an adoption story. - It's an adoption story. - Oh, so this is an adoption story, so maybe a kid who's like, understanding adoption could read this. - Totally. - So you're like, ah, that's how adoption work. - Yeah. - And you're using, and it's through penguins and these cute little animals. - And lots of animals, and there's different families in there. There's two mom families, two dad families as well. - That's sweet. - And those mom dad families. - I wanted to make sure that everybody was represented, because for me, that was the impetus for all of my creations, is like, how am I bringing something different to this, the world of children's literature, because it's like, you know, I have a lot of ideas, and it's fun to write a cute book, but I want to write a book that feels meaningful to me, and as a kid who grew up with a disability, and knowing that I was gay and wasn't comfortable coming out, and all of that confusion, I felt like it was important to me to create books that felt inclusive and represented different types of families, because we know two moms and two dads, who have kids and are raising kids, and they're like, we want books that show that. - Totally. - So our kids can see themselves in the books. - Totally. - So I was like, I need to do that. - That makes me think of when the Disney movie, Princess and the Frog came out, 'cause that was the first time that little girls of color, were able to see a Princess dance like them, and it's just like, I don't know, it's powerful. - Yeah, especially if you're a part of a minority group, you know, you want to be able to see your self-represented. - So yeah, that's cool, that's really cool. And I think the artwork, I mean, even seeing, I forget the, maybe it was like on your TikTok, I can't remember if it was YouTube, but just like your artistic abilities are so good. - Oh my gosh, thanks. - And you can clearly see that in the book, so I just think it's really cool that you've been able to keep, you know, using that ability, even with your vision, you know, with the vision problems you've had, like that's just so cool that you continue to create and do what you love and adapt. - I never thought I would. I never thought I would at this point, but it's only because of technology that's really allowed me to do it, like just having the screen and being able to manipulate things like with the brightness and the zooming. - But I have never seen a picture, an entire picture, with my own eyes. - One of your own illustrations. - I can't see any of those illustrations in total. I only can see a little piece at a time. - No way. - The heart. - So like when you're looking at, like-- - Like hold something up. - Yeah. Let me hold up. - Okay, let's hold up the book. - Okay. - The cover of the "Secretary Game." - So I'm looking at the cover and I look up, and I can see the little girl, the little girl penguin with the bow in her hair, and I can see nothing else on the cover, and I can look down, oh, and I see another penguin, and then I look down, and he's got a bow tie, and then I look down at the bottom, and I'm like, oh, there's a little, there's like the alligator character. - So I'm scanning, it's like looking, it's like a computer scanner that's taking in all of it, and then I've always been able to picture things fully in my mind's eye. - Yeah, I once asked Paul on the iPad, because he can shrink and expand the images to fit into his sight, and as I shrink down one of your pages so that you can see the whole thing, and it got so tiny that I was like, well, okay, so you can see the whole page now, but you can't make out what's there. - Yeah, it's like very fuzzy, obviously. So that's the trade-off. But I can see the composition. From an artist's perspective, I can create the composition of the page, but it's very blurry, obviously, I don't know, I don't have crispness or clarity, and then I can blow it up and see it up really close, so that's how I do it. But I trust Matthew is my art director, he's art directed everything I have done, and so I trust his valuable opinion. He sits down with the red pen, going through every space. - No way, see work as a team, you're the editor. - You're like, you're like, this isn't good enough. Go back to the drawing board. - He is blunt. - There's no gentleman. We back, you come a long way. 'Cause you actually will lead with something nice, occasionally. - I try to remember that. - I have a sensitive. - I feel convicted right now. I give blunt feedback, and I'm working on it. - We work together too. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, what's that like guys? - We're in therapy. - Yeah, we're in therapy. - I'm saying, you live and work with your spouse in this dynamic, it's beautiful in so many ways, but it is so hard. - Yeah, yeah. - Because we have actually just kind of learned, actually had a separate task. - Yeah. - We're like, it's better this way. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You do, you learn to like find each other's strengths and then. - And now it's not a conflict really. - Yeah. - But for a while, that was like a back and forth. - Yeah. - Yeah, you can't trash shock your business partner when it's outside. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Take it somewhere else. - I find, and I'm sure you relate to this, but at a certain point, it's like, when do you turn off the colleague work mind? Like, when you go out for dinner, can we not talk about work at that time? - Yes, no, we can't. - We have a really hard time. - It's hard. - We make rules, we make sure that the kids are work if we're on a date. (laughing) - What are you even talking about? - Especially when like your work is- - The Roman Empire. - When you do, when you do what you love. And so like the, the hobby of it and your art all gets mixed up into one. - Yeah. - And I don't know, like, I'm ADHD, so I'll get hyper focused on something that's all I want to talk about. Usually it's work, it's like, you gotta shut that off, right? - The other day we were on a walk, we'd do an evening walk, and Paul was like, "Okay, so we can't talk about work." And I was just like, "Silent." (laughing) (laughing) What are you gonna do? Oh no. - No, no, no, no, no, no. - News, news, what's it, what's it, what's it, news? - News. - Okay, and we struggled. - We do struggle. - Because it's, because like you said, it's a passion too. - So it takes over every corner of your life, and we love what we do, and we're entrepreneurs. We created this whole business together. If we stop, the whole thing can stop, right? There's not somebody else making a go. - And you're self-publishing, which is really impressive. It's not like you have somebody that's helping with the distribution necessarily. You're doing that all on your own. - Yes. - And so it's people that are seeing your content, going to your website, and then pressing the purchase button, right? - Yeah. - That's kind of how you make your money. And then we have a dedicated, wonderful employee, and she goes to into the warehouse, and she gets the orders, and she's fulfilling them, and you know, if we're running out of books, we have to place through reorders, and that's brilliant at all. - He is like Mr. Spreadsheets, Mr. Backend. Like I am just the creative imagination person. Like don't ask me to like make any sense of how it's gonna become something. I've always said I'm a dreamer, he's a doer. So like if that's one piece of advice I give for anybody looking for, I'm like, if you're a dreamer, find your doer, if you're a doer, find your dreamer, because you both need each other. - Are you, sorry, you like the Steve Wozniak, Steve Wozniak, and you're the Steve Jobs? - Yeah. - Okay. That's cool. - Probably like, okay, this is my next idea, and I'm like, okay, let's see, how do we make that happen? I need A, B, and then C, and then D, yeah. - That's cool. - Yeah. - That's really-- - We're pringling then. (laughing) - 18. Like what's been the biggest challenge you've faced, self-publishing, doing this by yourself, you're not kind of just like figuring it out, you know? - Yeah. - Staying restocked, like placing orders, and because it comes from overseas, like being able to project and order enough, and we don't have like huge warehouses, like a lot of these publishers have. So forecasting like sales, like there was a time when we worked like just completely out because the secret ingredient just caught on, and thousands of people were buying it, and all of a sudden we're like, "Whoops, okay, we're out, we don't have anything." - Yeah, we've been building the plane while flying it in this regard, like we didn't set out to create our own little mini boutique publishing company, but that's essentially what Matthew has done with me. I'm like the sole author illustrator. He's like, okay, we're gonna start a little publishing company. You're the only one producing the books. Hurry up, Paul. Hurry up, we need more books. And, you know, there's a lot of challenges, inherent challenges with that, just figuring out like Matthew said, like the stock and like, "Oh, where do warehouse things?" And just like the timing and the volatility of social media in general, because like you can't predict when things are gonna go up or down, and then just trying to get into the broader markets, like we can't get into the national distribution system, which would allow us to get into traditional bookstores. We can do bookstores on a case-by-case basis, but we can't get into the distribution system. It's complicated, 'cause this is like, we're too small. - You have to be a bigger publisher. - You have to be putting out like 10 titles a year or something. Like, it's a lot. - Paul can't do 10 books a year. - I can't do that. - I cannot do that. But we are traditionally published overseas, and they take care of all those things for us. So we do have that experience. - For translations. - For translations. - Yeah, yeah. But it's been exciting. I have to say, like, it's so exciting to learn as you go and figure it out on your own, especially if you have a good teammate, especially if you're in all-own. Yeah, I think it can be so rewarding the most rewarding way to do it. Yeah I'm I'm so happy for you guys. I like I'm excited to get to read these books to our kids and and thank you for the perfect age They're all for like three to seven so they love animals. Oh, perfect. I griffin I know he wanted it when he was in here earlier He really wanted to grab this like stuffed animal But I am you know thankful that he was able to let us have inside. He gets the lion He took August because that's the little Leo for August I don't know what to tell you I'll have to hash that out Anything else that we haven't touched on that we shouldn't touch on before we wrap up What did I make sure? I know I felt like we laughed and we cry like we had like every range of emotions Yeah, I mean that was a journey. That was a great You guys are so good. I like you're so like on top of it just with the storytelling and There were times I'm like I want to ask a question that you covered it like Yeah, well, we've all been doing this for a while But it's really fun to sit down with people that we have so much in God another couple that does what we do is is to meet and Thank you for making this so comfortable like you guys are so natural and easy and fun to talk to Seriously, thanks for making the journey out here. Oh, yeah, our pleasure. Yeah, safe safe travels back to Seattle Yeah, we got to go right to the airport Yeah, what time is your flight? It's in like two hours. Oh my gosh. Yeah, okay. Good. Well, where's the best place for people to connect with you? Online, we're Matthew and Paul. Yeah, Matthew and Paul tic-tac Instagram YouTube Facebook events and that chat we're on snapchat. I didn't even know that but Yeah, we're everywhere Matthew and Paul and then I also have Paul Castle studio but like the Michael Castle studio dot com Castle studio dot com. Okay. All my books and plushies are available as well as you know Walmart com Amazon all that They're on there too. Okay, the books are on wall and yeah, Walmart. Well, they're on Walmart dot com Okay, and we're getting into Target. I'm worried about like they're publishing thing. Yeah, yeah, very neat. Oh, yeah That's big. That's big. Gratitude. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, and We will have to stay in touch because this was this was great. It was great. It was great. I hope so. Thank you Olen Shannon Maldonado Käsin tehti ja artessaanitua teita myüven jaui lahi kaupan perusta ja Valitsin Shopify koska alusto ja testa testa ni totesin sen ehdottomasti yhdeksi helpokäyttöisimmistä alustoista Minulo oli tärkeä pohtia kehittymistä me tulevaisuudessa Kaikki myüntiin tarvittava työkalut, kuten varaston suunnittelu, ovat kätivästi dashboardissa Aloita ilmainen kokeilu Shopify piste komsi vustolla