Erin & Sara Foster on Finding Success on Their Own Timeline

[MUSIC] When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah, did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one. In a sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive, one on one hand. And in the end, everything could be addictive. If there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the GOOP podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers, here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. This week, we're sharing a gem from the GOOP podcast archives. [MUSIC] Welcome to the GOOP podcast, I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. And today I'm sitting down with two of my good friends, a pair of overachieving sisters doing it all, hosting a podcast, running a fashion line. And now releasing season two of their hit Netflix show. We talk about the inevitable pivots on the way to success. What it's really like to work with family and the very real challenges of fertility. Always hilarious, never predictable, Aaron and Sarah Foster. [MUSIC] Hi, the role's a really reverse now. I know. It's so fun for me to get to do this today. Because I don't know, I was just reflecting on, I've known you guys for such a long time, and I love you both. And I've gotten to watch each of you go on these incredible journeys, both separately and then together as entrepreneurs. And I'm just, I was like thinking about it and I feel like, God, I'm so proud of them. That's so nice. That's so nice. I know we've got, there's been a lot of lives lived in our friendship. There's been a lot of lives lived. So let's start back at the beginning. We don't have to traverse across the whole story because we told it on your podcast, the world's last podcast, best podcast, first podcast. What's it called? The world's first podcast. But I was going to say, you and Sarah have a very deep history. And you and I, our history has really cranked up a notch in the last six months. Our history, oh my God, since I did your pod, Erin, I feel like you're now my best friend and Sarah's below you. I know it's, and it's, I mean, the nontoxic mom chat don't be toxic, has really brought us together because we have such a shared passion. And you've been a fantastic addition to the chat. Thank you. I would, I would say it's a shared psychosis, maybe, but yeah, that's all that's okay. It's like, it's so funny. I said to Erin, I was like, Erin, you're just like pushing it, going to be on your chat. She doesn't want to be on your chat. She's like, why are you pushing her kids around? She's an empty nester. And I just want to be on your little baby mom chat cut to, you know, to find out you're very active on the chat. Great addition. Thank you. I take it seriously. I take my role seriously. Take, you know, I, it's, it's a very, it's not, it's a big deal bringing someone new into the chat because, I mean, I said this to you on the, on the podcast, but like, you know, I've suggested a few different people in the groups like, no, thank you. I mean, I was one of them. I was one of them. And it's not for people who are curious about a nontoxic life. That's welcome to the world. It's you need like your fake PhD. Yes. Exactly. You have to be bringing information, knowledge and a passion. It can't just be like a, you know, living fancy, free or whatever. Anyway. That's right. Anyway, you've been a great addition. It feels amazing having you on it. And I love having that connection to you now. I feel close to you. Me too. Me too. Me too. I love it when I can, you know, find freaks like me to talk about microplastics with, you know, it's very validating. And I always love giving, you know, Aaron her friends, her other best friends yet. Her other best friend. So you're welcome, Aaron. Wow. Wow. Looking like someone who's toxic and can't be on our chat. That's a real development. Did you steal her real best friend? Yeah. No, Jen and I have been getting close for the last five years and it's really kicked in the high gear and she comes over like three times a week. I mean, she's, because she's developed like a strong, strong bond with my baby. Sarah, how does that make you feel? I mean, you know that I've, I suffer from this thing that you don't suffer from. It's getting a lot better. Gwyneth and we said it on our pod does not have FOMO. She doesn't have FOMO. She's securely attached. She's competent. She never feels threatened. You know, I always feel threatened. I'm like in this fighter flight mode always, but it's totally better. Like, I'm actually very happy for you to have this, whatever this relationship is at you to our building that I'm sure won't, you know, sustain the way that yours and mine has. But like, I'm happy for you guys to have it. I'm happy for her and Jen. Jen will always be my best friend, but it's, it's good. Okay. Good. Well, this, you know, this brings me actually to my first question because so, so a few years ago, you started a fantastic clothing brand called Favorite Daughter that's like become incredibly successful, so proud of you guys. How many retail stores do you have now? Well, we have Beverly Hills, our flagships and Beverly Hills on South Beverly. It's beautiful. We're proud of it. Really, really beautiful. We had palisades and then we are looking to Aaron. We are looking to open. I didn't know I wasn't allowed to speak. I didn't know that. I didn't know the rules where I wasn't allowed to talk. No, no, you are. We just got to get through this. It got to get through the one sends and then we'll be opening hopefully two on the road map is two by the end of the year. Amazing. So, I kind of want to start there because, you know, I feel like you guys have, you know, there are so many young women in their 20s who kind of have an idea of what they want to do and they're sort of, you know, trying different things or don't necessarily feel fully empowered to go after their dream. I feel like you guys had a gestational period where you were sort of figuring it out, right? It was like, are you going to act full time? Are you going to write full time? Are you going to invest? Are you going to influence for lack of a better word? Like, there was kind of a lot percolating simultaneously. And then all of a sudden, like some major things took hold and got traction and kind of around the same time. So, so favorite daughter, I didn't see the clothing thing coming. It was such a good surprise. And sort of starting with the seed of like you guys and your like fake competition of one another, obviously the brand is favorite daughter. So inherently in that is like the dynamic is, you know, is expressed brought to light. So will you tell me a little bit about that period in your lives, right? Like you're Aaron, you were totally trying to find a husband. Sarah, you were sort of like, what am I actually going to focus on? You are raising your kids. That was taking so much of your mind share, but you also had ambitions to do other things. You guys are, it's like if I think back to five years ago, you guys are sort of like floating, trying to kind of nail nail it down. So how would you articulate the series of events that happen or what happened energetically to lead you guys into this period of clarity and execution and success? Well, I can just say for myself, because Sarah and I, we both have different paths, is that my first professional writing job in TV was when I was 29 and I'm now almost 43. And so it was a long time ago, but it was also a little bit of a late start for someone about to turn 30 and I was immediately met with a really challenging situation and it sort of shook my faith. I was like, very clear. I really want to be a writer. I really want to be a professional writer. I loved having that opportunity. But then there was like a stumbling block where I got fired and I questioned if I was good at it or not and I didn't really know what to do next. So then enter barely famous, we end up selling a pitch that we write and produce and create and do our own thing and it's like, you know, very guerrilla style. We don't make any money on it. We actually lose money on it. People really like it, but it doesn't really get good ratings. It barely gets a second season. We still continue to not make money on the show and this was the reality show you did. Well, it's not. It wasn't a reality show. It's scripted show about making fun of two people who would be doing a reality show. Right. Yeah, exactly. So it was like our curb and that sent us on a different path, but still you're not making money doing that. And so from there, I, as somebody who wanted to be a writer, creator, showrunner, wasn't really able to have consistency in that. Like I sell a pilot, they don't make the pilot, but you get a little money. I sell a pilot, they make the pilot, but it doesn't get picked up, you make a little money. So during that process, if anybody came to me and said, Hey, I have this other interesting business idea that I think you should do, I would be like, I could try that too. If it was close, if it was a podcast, I was like, I want to stay busy. I want to stay proactive. I don't know. how to make my writing career take off. I don't know how to make it. Make me a millionaire, make me super successful. So I'm open to things that are interesting and creative to me. And I think in some ways, being open to your life looking a different way does end up putting you on the path you kind of always intended to be on. Just differently than you thought it would look. Right. And Sarah, I mean, I think, if I'm being really honest, I spent most of my life not having agency, like at all, like really just not living in this forward moving energy. I really sat back most of my life just thinking things were going to fall in my lap because things fell in my lap as a very young person. When you're young and you're five, nine, and people tell you you're attractive, and you just sort of think, OK, well, I'll get opportunities. I moved to Paris when I was 18. I was like, I can make money modeling. I didn't know who I was as I've been very open about on our own podcast. I had really no self-esteem. I didn't know what I was good at. People told me, oh, you'd be good at this. I would try this, and I'd be kind of good at it. But I just-- I didn't have a plan. I really just didn't have a plan. And I always ended up landing on my feet. So the optics were that like, oh, yeah, she's doing well. Like, her life is good, blah, blah, blah. But like, my life wasn't really good, because when you don't have agency and when you don't have a North Star, and when you don't know who you are, you're not, as you love to say, you're not living in your integrity. It's really just sort of this gray thing. And I did, I think, what a lot of people do which is I found my identity and who I was dating. So I would date men who did have agency and who were these larger-than-life people because it gave me self-esteem like, oh, they want to be with me. So then I guess I'm OK. I guess I'm interesting. Did people know who those people are? I'm not going to say. I'm just wondering if they do or not. I don't know. I mean, everything in every family, paparazzi just wasn't around the same way back then. We're also going to have so much more evidence. You're bagged some whales. Yeah, yeah. Definitely bagged some whales. Guys, the whales that I could have bagged that I didn't bag, that's a far more interesting story. But so, yeah, I guess my life really got good when I started being open to new opportunities. Like, I used to look at opportunities and go, OK, if this isn't leading to the thing that I think I want to do, I'm not going to do it. When I started being open to opportunities, not knowing where those opportunities would lead, not necessarily thinking that those opportunities were, what's the word, I don't want to say below me, you know? But when we took the Bumble position, everybody told us that was a crazy thing to do. People were like, you're finally now just being taken seriously as actress comedians with barely famous because it didn't, it wasn't a huge hit, but the industry took notice. The industry was kind of like, wait, even though Gwyneth thought that it was a reality show. Guys, that's the compliment that I couldn't tell the difference. Yeah, that means we're really good actresses there. But it was kind of like the first time that, you know, comedic agents and executives were like, wait, those girls are funny. Like, we need to develop something else with them. So we kind of went from that to then taking the position at Bumble where we were just, I mean, what was the role at Bumble? You were sort of ambassadors. We were heads of creative. So Whitney basically, she loved barely famous. Her team loved barely famous. She hired us to come speak on a panel. And she was launching the BFF and Biz arm of the app. And she was like, I don't know guys. I think those girls should kind of come in and be our heads of creative, make finding a friend and a business partner feel relevant, feel cool, feel all the things, right? And so everybody was like, why are you doing that? That feels like, why aren't you writing another show? Anyways, that pivot, and I know we talk about pivots all the time, that pivot let us down a really fruitful, fruitful road. And in what sense? I'm, I'm, well, I think it was the first time that Aaron and I really worked together in-- 'Cause you're ideating ideas about how to amplify Bumble and their mission. And it's like quite awesome. I think just opened us up to seeing ourselves differently. I think that I'm sure in some ways for you, Gwyneth, you're like, I identify as an actress. And then you start goop and you're like, I'm a founder. I'm a business woman. I'm an investor. I'm a shareholder. You become all these different things. And it opens up your mind to, I don't have to be this one thing I set out to be and limit myself that way. And I think that Whitney was a big part in teaching us. Whitney has a lot of confidence in business and she doesn't really limit herself in any way. But don't you feel like we're kind of living in this interesting age where as soon as you have a platform, you can develop any number of business lines or creative lines out of a platform. It's actually, like in one way, it's so incredible. And it's so democratizing and empowering. And then in another way, it's sort of like anyone can do it. And the possibilities are limitless. But you guys have had real success at it. So why do you think that is? Like, for example, obviously, and we'll get to the show. But from a favorite daughter perspective, I just find it so interesting, right? Because you weren't like, oh, my life's dream is to make a clothing line. No, no. So tell us about the process of that coming to you. I mean, honestly, that all's in the same bucket as what I was saying, like being open to new opportunities, like it actually, and I don't know if you want to tell the story, Aaron, you can tell the suburban riot story. But it stemmed from an opportunity that came our way that I was like, okay, my way, okay, it can't. Here's your way. Here's the story. Sarah and I have different strengths. So Sarah is very hardworking, right? She has almost like a better work ethic than I do. She's got like more ambition than I do. But I am much more open to opportunities. Because I don't fear failure, the way that Sarah feels is a fear of failure. But that's because I failed a lot as a kid. And Sarah didn't. Sarah was a straight A student. She was always the best at everything that she did. And I was-- - Oh, this eldest girl. You know, that is an affliction. It's like a, it's almost like a personality disorder. And I would know. - Yeah, total. - It is definitely a disorder. - No, but I was very used to failing. I didn't get good grades. I didn't make the team. I didn't get, you know, all those things. So I was kind of comfortable in that zone of like, I don't know, maybe I fail and that won't define me because I've failed before. Sarah had a real fear around that and a fear around failing in front of other people. And so for her, she was very resistant to trying these things because she would think about what are, I don't want to put words into her mouth, but like the fear of what it would look like to other people that if we tried this thing and it didn't work out, like what would that say about us? Whereas for me, I would look at it as like, how cool would it look to people if we tried something new and different and put ourselves out there? And if it doesn't work, I'm okay with that because it's not that I'm such a big person. It's more like that was kind of always part of my process is starting and failing, starting and failing. So it wasn't something to me that was going to define me the same way. Really, I'm sorry to interrupt Aaron, but I really respect and admire that because you know, as mentioned, I'm from the same campus Sarah, right? Where like when you're the first born daughter, like I cannot stress this enough, it's like the implicit responsibility that gets put onto your shoulders in terms of reflecting back to your parents that they are good and important people and looking after your siblings. I mean, it's so intense. And I do think that it creates a situation where we feel like if we're not perfect, we're nothing. Like we're valueless unless we're perfect and it's a really, really difficult catch 22. So do you feel that you've been able to kind of imbue Sarah a little bit more with this feeling of like it's okay to try and feel like Sarah, do you feel having watched Aaron's philosophy around this that you feel a little bit more freed up or healed around the subject? - Yeah, I mean Aaron always, I mean Aaron and I are very different at like at 20, I was always so concerned with what I looked like to people or what people thought of me. I mean, it really meant something to me. At least I thought it meant something to me. I was like, okay, if I go on this audition and I see a peer there, they're gonna think you know that I've failed as an actress because I'm auditioning for this like, you know, tampax commercial when I was just in this big movie but I'm not really a good actress. So I didn't get another role in a big movie and now I'm at a commercial audition for tampax, truly. And I would suffer. I'd be like, I'm not good. [BLANK_AUDIO] I'm not this, I'm not that, we're Aaron. Aaron's like, shit, I gotta pay the bills. I'm gonna get a job at free people. And I needed to do that 'cause I needed money, but I was like, I can't go do that. So I'm gonna go figure out other ways. You know, and Aaron had no ego around it, you know? At all. - I love that. - But yes, Aaron has definitely helped me, you know, in so many ways. But when it came to the clothing, that the seed was planted for us in the clothing business. As a little t-shirt collaboration with like a little random company that had reached out to Aaron who just made t-shirts and sweatshirts. Saying, you and Sarah are really funny. Would you guys ever wanna do captions for t-shirts and sweatshirts? Okay. Now Aaron goes, this sounds cool. I hear that and I go, okay. - Greaserville. - I'm a copywriter now. I'm a, okay, I mean, this was such a little deal that we didn't even have a contract, okay? - So that's where the favorite daughter name came? - Yes. - Well, well. - We had one contract just, no lawyers looked at it, which was one of us. - We spent it at Hugo's. - Overlucked. - So basically we, you know, like 15, no, 20 years ago or something, we started, our dad wanted us to have an LLC with our sisters for like legal things and I being the person who always had to do everything was the person who exact, named it or whatever and like was the executor who would sign, sign things. So I just named it favorite daughter music because like every other parent, you know, our dad would joke when he was alone with us that we were the favorite. And so everybody's being told that they're the favorite when you're alone and then you talk to each other and realize that he's been telling everybody this. So it was just like a joke, like a nothing, you know, call it favorite daughter music. So then when we were doing these t-shirts, I thought I was so clever coming up with like, dying alone with like a cat on it or like currently peaking, like all these things that I thought were super clever, undiscovered model. - They are. - Thank you. - Honey, they didn't sell. - They didn't sell alone. - Sarah goes, oh, let's do one that says favorite daughter and I was like, that's cheesy. No, it's boring. And she's like, Aaron, we're doing like 20 of them. Just do one. I was like, fine. So we do favorite daughter, put a little heart on it and two million dollars of sales in one t-shirt. - Come on. - Come on. - Yeah, nothing else sells, except for this dumb ass t-shirt. And so we're like, that's interesting. And basically this company centric took notice of it 'cause this t-shirt started being everywhere. And, by the way, and therein lies our partnership, right? Like, it's like the things that, you know, she came up with this idea 20 years ago, but then I brought it back around. She shed on it, but I did it anyway. You know, it's like the ebb and flow and this sort of, it's just, 'cause I wanted it to be edgy. I wanted us to come up with like snarky things and felt like cute, you know? All these people were buying it for their eight-year-old daughters and like buying it for all three of their daughters. They'd wear it in a picture together like a joke and I was like, cute, but that's not what I'm going for. I'm going for like hard comedy. And I was wrong. This is the thing that worked. - And so, a company came to a centric and they said we want to start a fashion brand around this IP. And it was something that had never occurred to us. We weren't trying to do something bigger. And I think again, Sarah's instinct is fear. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like I don't want to put ourselves out there like that. Where I was just sort of like, we're not doing a fashion brand. We're not fashion girls. Like we don't even care about fashion. Like we don't, we, you know, we don't. - But that is a big or so refreshing about it in a way too, you know? It's like because what you are is like, you know your personal style. You guys always look really cute. You're, it's a very California brand in my mind. You know, so it's like, it turns it on its head. Like the whole point is that you're not like New York fashion bitches who take yourselves too seriously in that respect, right? You're like these gorgeous blonde dress like yourselves always look great sisters. - Hmm, thank you. - I think that what we realized is that there's fashion is such a strong identity of the it bag and the it coat and the $2,000 this and coveted stuff and you have to be on the list and that's not who we are. And so that's not our brand. Our brand turns out there's way more women in the world like us. Right? It's, there's more girls like us because girls can't afford to be that person. And even if Sarah and I could afford it, it's just not who we innately are. So I think that the special sauce is a combination of us staying very true to ourselves. Not who we want to be, not who we wish we were. - Right. - And we actually are because I've always been intimidated. You know my best friend, Jamie. She's like the most stylish person on the planet. Like that's intimidating for me, right? I wish I could effortlessly throw something on. It's like a caftan with like feathers hanging off and it looks effortless, but like that's not me. So I think big part of it is accepting the truth of who we are and turning that into a superpower. And then also if we sign up to do something, we really, really, really follow through with it. We stay focused on every detail, just the same way you did when you started a group. It's not like you started something and then walked away. Like every single detail is being paid attention to. And you can't take your eye off at any point. Sarah and I are still in every fitting. That doesn't change. - Same. So when you say, like I thought that was really interesting how you just said, you know, we're very true to who we are, not who we want to be or think we are. Like how do you distill that down for yourselves? Like do you think there's a freedom and just full acceptance of like, okay, I'm letting go of this aspiration that I'm going to be X. - Hmm, I think I was in, you what? I just think there's a freedom in it. I think that resisting the truth makes you go crazy. And I think for me at least it's not like I was born comfortable. It took me a really, really, really long time to stop trying to be something else. And I just got comfortable asking what a word meant. Or, you know, on a trip someone goes, what's the last book you read? I'm like, oh, I don't know. I haven't read a book in a year. I would have panicked and lied to somebody at that point. If I was 25, I would have got like to kill a mockingbird. I don't know, and made something up that I thought was impressive. Like I just read it for fun. But that would be insane. If you said the last book you read was to kill a mockingbird. I don't know. I'm annoying going on a date would say that. You know, and it would send me into a spiral about it. But I don't know. I just couldn't live like that any longer. So how do you define yourselves, each of you? What are like the three to five kind of main values that you each carry? Oh, shit. If you mean, oh, man, that's a good question. Gwyneth, I told you Aaron, she's a hard hitting journalist. That's not hard hitting journalism, honey. No, I don't. I'm just really curious. I want to hear how like you were talking about the truth of who you really are. So what are some words that help elucidate that for us? I mean, I think for myself, truth and honesty is sort of like the forefront of my persona and how I live. And for me, having integrity is really important. And I understand that might be obvious. But I mean, like if I'm talking about someone behind their back, it is really important to me that I don't go then kiss their ass two days later. Like I have to stay true to the things that I say. And I try really hard to do that. I also am an anxious person. And I'm a really reactive person. It's really hard for me to not get activated by things and to not have like a jump reaction of defensiveness or justifying something. It's hard for me to apologize, just saying some of my negative things. And I really also accept myself, you know. Good and bad. Good and bad, Sarah. Yeah, you know, I'm in an interesting place because I only really started taking a hard look at myself like four years ago, as you know. You know, we would sit at the dinner table and you'd say to me, like, well, are you in therapy? And I would just look at you and be like, no. And you would look at me and be like, OK, I mean, and you would lovingly be like, I know some people. If you'd like their number, this is an intervention. But like, I really realized over the last four years that I have a lot of unhealed shit. And it's really crazy looking at it so late in life. I mean, it's like, it's such a disservice. I've done to myself because there's nothing you can't overcome. You can wake up tomorrow and change. I believe that. Yes, I believe, you know, we are who we are. And there are certain things about me. I'm always just going to kind of be flaky. I'm always going to kind of be bad on text, even though my therapist is actually-- he's literally-- he texts me at 5.30 every day. And he's like, what's your text count at? But I've realized-- I have got a very good time to be texting Sarah, because her therapist has mandated that she was pondering people. Wow. Well, maybe I'll try again then now that I know it's part of the protocol. But I do have deep anxiety. Like, I want to be a perfectionist, I am a people pleaser, I avoid conflict, but yet then when I'm in conflict, I thrive in it because I love to just scream at somebody. I mean, I'm really like a fucked up person. Like, it's crazy. Like, I will have, I will stay in a bad relationship for way longer than I should because I'm too, I don't, I want to avoid the conflict of leaving a relationship. I mean, I'm talking like, you know, along, you know, earlier relationships. I'll stay with like a bad agent, like an agent who like won't return my calls for two years. I still stay. I'm like, oh, well, you know, I don't want to fire him, even though he would love to probably get rid of me. I've just never known how to face conflict, but then I'm very combative. You know, like, I love to say to someone like, you can go fuck yourself. Like, that doesn't stress me out to say that to someone, which is not normal. You know, when it comes to business, whatever I'm like, I'm not fucking putting up with this shit. This is bullshit, Sarah Panix. It's like, no, no, you can't say that to the person. Like, she has a very like, we're lucky to be here kind of mindset where I'm in the whole house down. It's like a peacemaker mindset, you know, which, which it's kind of like a let's, let's not, let's not do anything to blow up the situation. But also in business, Aaron is more confident because Aaron has an innate talent. Aaron is a writer. She will always be able to fall back on being really talented at something. I am more of a connector and a like, I don't even know what you want to say about me, but I feel like I always have to be, you know, churning. I have to always be, I don't know what the word is. So when Aaron is like, no, let's walk away from this deal. I'm like, wait, what? No, you can't walk away. Because then if you walk away, then the deal might explode and then where's my security? Because financial security is a very, I'm always, we had a mom who was an amazing mom, but our mom, you know, supported us on child support checks. Like, that's how it works, right? There was scarcity. There was scarcity. Yes, and I, I knew when the child support check was late, I knew I knew as the oldest, as the oldest daughter. So in my mind, I'm like, I don't, I don't want to be living my life like that. So I have to constantly, I'm always in fear that I will lose everything that I will have nothing. It's just a thing and it's right. So, right. So that makes sense. Then you want to keep things sort of as status quo because they, they, you know, you, you could make something worse. Yeah, it's a terrible way to live, but well, but I, you know, I, I, I just want to say, you know, I think there's been a lot of growth from, from that. And, you know, like even, even deciding to, you know, around this time when you started to look at yourself about four years ago, I think there was like, you were very brave and how you started to think about the kind of life that you wanted going forward. And, for example, how you're romantic relationship dovetailed into that. And, you know, that is, that is a very brave, difficult thing to do, you know, to, as we've talked about a lot, you know, when you make a decision to, to not be with the father of your, of your children. And, but it is also a very self honoring choice, you know, and Tommy's awesome. It's not about that. It's about right. Like the reckoning of this is I need to release the real me and, and be able to make decisions from that place. Yeah, I mean, I just spent, I've spent way too long just living an autopilot in so many ways. I used to say to you, I used to be like, it's like I'm at 37,000 feet in the clouds, like a sleep at the wheel. Like I just don't, and that's not even, that was in every aspect of my life. I even found myself in the way that I parent, you know, that's no way that we should live our lives as a mother, as a partner, as a founder of who as a human as a woman, as a woman. I don't think it's like also no accident that, you know, you sort of stuck a stake in the ground, claimed yourself, claimed your agency, and then like all of this success started coming, you know, I don't, I don't think that's an accident. Yeah, I mean, I, I also, I'm so lucky that I have Aaron as a partner because Aaron, Aaron wakes up and, and she has an abundance mindset and not an abundance and get rich, but just an abundance, just an abundance can be a million things. And it's such a great way to live and I wake up the opposite of that. So if I didn't have a partner with that mindset, like, I don't know, I mean, I would just, well, I'd be not only fans, I guess, which still not know, you know, still. So is an option. We should collaborate, we should collaborate on that. And Aaron, one of the things that really like fascinates me about you is that you do, you are an optimist, you have this, you do come from a place of abundance. I mean, of course, you have your like dry wicket sense of humor, but you, you are an optimist and you, you, you do have this sense of abundance that life is behind you, it's on your side. How have you been able to, like, when something really different, like, like, you had 81,000 rounds of IVF, like, how did you remain so positive? That's crazy. Like, I've never, I've never had a friend who's gone, been through the ringer more on that front. And I know you've talked openly about it. I wouldn't have spoken about it. But how, like, I'm so interested in like, what was your philosophy around doing it, continuing to do it, the resilience? How did you conjure the resilience? Like, how did you stay so positive until you got the result? It's crazy. There were a lot of times I didn't feel positive, you know, I mean, there was a time where like, I think after maybe 10 or 11 rounds, I like kind of had a mental breakdown and I was like, I need to go somewhere. And I, I don't remember if I asked her if she offered, but our little sister Jordan got on a plane. She had a baby. She lived in New York and she got on a plane and we, and met me in Sonoma, and we like turned our phones off for three days and drank wine and road bicycles and got massages and disconnected it and it like kind of saved me. It gave me another, I don't know, three or four years of going through it, like it gave me some stamina because I just felt like I was going to lose my mind a little bit with the frustration. So I hit breaking points. It's not like I was always positive, but, you know, I had a, I had a really strong faith that it was going to work out. And I can only think of the comparison to finding my partner because when I was flailing and going on bad dates and not in a place where it seemed like it was going to work out, I just had this strong feeling that it would work out and I didn't know how, but I did think it would. And I think a big part of the fertility faith and the love faith and the kind of faith everyone should have is it might not work out how you want it to, but it will work out if you allow it to. And I really felt like I will meet my person and I remember having a very clear age in my mind like when I was like 32 or something. I might not meet my person till I'm 41. That was an age that scared me like I might not meet my person till I'm 41 and he might already have kids and I might be a stepmom. And if that's how it works out, but it works out, I have to be okay with that. I don't like how that looks. I don't like how it sounds. I don't like how long it's going to take, but I have to be okay with it. And letting go of those like prescriptions like the prescriptive my life has to look like this. Yeah, and I don't know where that comes from. I think just because I had a harder time the first half of my life and Sarah had an easier time the first half of her life and then we sort of switched roles and Sarah started to have a hard time because she was looking at herself and I started to have an easier time. But my life didn't turn out the way I thought it was going to. It's very different and I ended up having a baby at 41 and that's not when I thought I was going to have a baby. But now I look at it and I go, wow, the timing was really perfect. So like it sounds to me listening to you that you have faith, let faith, I don't you know, it courses through your body like this knowing like I know it's going to be okay. I don't know how right or I'm going to let go of these preconceived ideas about how my life is going to look in the timeframe, which are very, very difficult for young women to do, especially in our culture, I think. So then you meet the love of your life and it turns out that he's Jewish and you have to convert to Judaism. And I'm so curious because like there are so many beautiful things in Judaism, especially the mystical side, which really resonates with me. And I come from this long line of mystical rabbis like when you went through the process of converting, was there anything about the Jewish faith that you learned about that sort of like ratified or the internal faith that you had already. Like did you combine those things in any way or were you just like no, I'm just converting so that this hot Jewish guy will marry me. both, I guess, but you know, like 15 years ago. go, my girlfriend Sophia Rossi, she got more religious in her Jewish faith and she decided to sort of dive deeper into her Judaism and I went to a few Jewish classes with her just because I had nothing else to do and I was fascinated by it and I weirdly like posted a picture on Twitter 15 years ago that was me holding a book about Judaism and I said like attention to Jewish guys who make great husbands and I'm willing to convert and it was just a joke. You know, I just obviously in my mind heard Jewish guys make great husbands and I thought like that would be a great life for me and then you know 15 years later it was happening and and I manifested it in some way that I didn't even understand at the time which is so funny. I really think that the thing about Judaism that I really connected to was the idea that you're allowed to question everything and you're actually expected to question everything. Right. So when I started to convert to Judaism I was really nervous that I was going to end up having to do something that didn't align with me internally and that I would be faking it and that really, really scared me. I didn't want to sign up for something that didn't feel right to me, right? And it was when I voiced that concern and the rabbi was like great, these are exactly the conversations we should be having. I was thinking wow, I'm in the right place. Has it been additive for you? Yeah, it has. I don't connect my faith to my life working out with religion, but I really like this feeling I have with Judaism where it's this framework that we can always come back to when we're feeling a little out of sorts. Simon and I travel, we work and it's like let's do Shabbat together. Let's have friends over. Let's have dinner. Simon's really good at saying let's light the candles tonight and talk about our week and let's talk about what we want to do better next week and let's reconnect and let's be grateful for each other. That stuff is really like comforting to have and I chose a partner who is very sentimental and very, you know, focused on a connection and constantly reaffirming the connection and reestablishing it. And to me, there's a connection with Judaism in that because I don't know it's like inherently a part of the culture. I also think we grew up around chaos and there's something about the Jewish religion that is the opposite of that. It's like I've claimed to Judaism through I was going to ask you through Aaron and Simon and his parents Marina and Anatolian, the siblings, Masha and Al, it's like it's this beautiful family that, you know, they they they're so loving to one another and it's not that our family wasn't loving, of course, but it was just chaos and there's something about about the way that the families that I've now met that practice Judaism that it's it's it's it's it's chaos in a more beautiful way. Does that make sense? Like it's the coming together. It's the family. It's the connecting. It's the conversations. It's the listening. It's the it's the showing up for one another and we've all through Aaron and Simon. Now we get to experience it's it's it's a whole new experience for our family. Mm. That's so beautiful. Yeah. Don't you know any nice Jewish husbands for your sister and oh my God, that would be amazing. You know what? I think I feel season three of nobody wants this coming along. Oh my God. So we talk nobody wants this? I did yes, because this is a perfect segue because you obviously wrote this. Wildly successful show for Netflix based on well loosely semi based on your relationship with Simon and and the conversion and Sarah, you produced it. I mean, again, like I cannot tell you how thrilling it was when you guys are like, yeah, we're like, I don't know, we're just working on I'm sure it's nothing like we're doing this show for Netflix. And then it's like the biggest hit of the year and Emmy nominated so proud. So how how did you parlay that this story of your life? Like how did you even start to where you like this is just a great story because because you're a writer, you're like, Oh, this is comedy gold. Like I'm writing all this real life stuff down and I'm going to turn it into a TV show. No, it was really Ollie. It was Ollie. Yeah, it was a big part was Ollie, Ollie, who's our producing partner and manager at three arts. No, honestly, when I when I met Simon, I kind of stopped writing because I just come off of a pilot that I had shot that did get made that I really thought should get made. I was very kind of like disenchanted with everything and I was almost 36 and I was sort of like, I don't know what I'm chasing, but I don't really want to chase it anymore. I really want to be a wife and a mom and like, that's my next chapter. And so when I met someone who was not in entertainment really in this side of it, you know, he wasn't chasing that thing. And we started to establish this sort of domestic life together. I just thought, this is kind of what I want now. And this isn't really funny, right? Like what am I going to write about? I was always writing about my failures or bad dates or bad relationships and that was really funny to me. And there wasn't anything funny about this to me. I was like, it's really sweet and wholesome and like, and I read that you were slightly worried that that was going to make you like a less sharp comedian writer. Yeah. I definitely was because Simon has never dated anyone who's in the spotlight like this. He's never dated anyone whose life is out there. He's very private. He comes from an immigrant family like you don't talk about anything. So the idea that I was going to write something that was inspired by our life was very challenging for us at first because Simon was like, no, you can't do that. You can't write about us. No, you can't make fun of my family. That's not okay. So it kind of shut me down creatively. I didn't really know what to pull from if I wasn't allowed to make fun of my relationship. I didn't really know what I was supposed to write about. And Ollie was kind of like, what are you doing with your life? Like why aren't you writing? This is so weird. We should write about this and find a way to do it. And so he pushed me to and then, and then, and then I did it. And I found a way to not make it. In a lot of ways, Simon probably pushed me to tell the better story, which is the more wholesome story, which is about these two people loving each other instead of it being all about the quality. Yeah. It wasn't about making fun of this connection. It was about celebrating it. And you know, the irony is that I feared it wouldn't be funny or interesting enough to write about. And then, you know, unintentionally it ended up being this like celebration of healthy love. And the celebration of like grown up love and two people who really should be able to make it work, trying really hard to get over their shit for each other. And that absolutely is what we were doing in real life. I just didn't really realize that that was going to resonate for everyone, that part of it. You know? And Sarah, what's your role in it? Like what do you hand from a hands-on perspective? Are you coming up with story? Like what does a producer do? Yeah. I mean, when it came to this specific, this was just like one of the five projects that we had an overall deal at 20th. And this was sort of-- Which is cool, by the way, I mean. Which is so cool. But as you know, it's impossible. You think you have something great, you know? We were really developing things that we thought were really good and edgy and funny and had all the things. And even if someone buys it, it dies, you know? It's like, it's crazy. It's like, just when you're selling it, you never know when to celebrate in this business. So Shixah was one of five, was I think one of five projects we had in development, under our deal. And originally, we had sold Shixah, I think it was just me, Ollie and Aaron in the room. We sold it to 20th. They were like, yeah, this is great, this is great. And I started thinking to myself, I was like. This business is so cut throat. Like, how is this not going to be one of the five other projects that is never going to see the light of day? Like, what do we do? How do we actually get this freaking bot? So I was like, I think we need to bring in like someone major to come on board. And I think this person needs to come on board and their name and their influence and their-- it's going to help. It's going to-- as we know, it's like a package situation. Like, you got to, you know, whatever. So we brought Steve Levittanon, who created modern family and-- so that's what a producer does. A producer is like, how can we get this bot? How can we actually put ourselves in the best position to get this on the air? And so from there, you know, you have your relationships at places. I had a relationship at Netflix. And then once you're there, then, yeah, I'm involved in breaking story and storylines and editing and on set, that was season one. But this is Aaron's show, you know, I mean, Aaron's the creator and I'm just, you know. And then-- Yeah. So it's like, I'm not, I'm not a writer by any means, but-- But you're so funny and you're so clever. I have a pretty good idea of like what people want. I understand what people want, you know? Yeah. I think that's great. Yeah. And so, you know, you're involved in casting and you're involved in all of those things. [MUSIC] What is it like now that you're, you know, it's like you guys are held are you 42 and 44? - Yeah. - So, how, what is it like to like at 42 and 44 have this monster hit? - I mean, it's really validating. It is really validating. - And it's cool. - Yeah, I mean, there's nothing, I mean, I think that, you know, we, it's so weird, like no one ever, I mean, no, it's hard for people to let you enjoy things, you know, because it's always about what's going to happen next, whether it's your baby or your relationship or it's your show. - Next go. - And by the way, as big as a hit as the show was, you know, people will be onto the next thing, you know, a year from now. And that just naturally happens. And so, I can only speak for myself. I'm trying to really enjoy it, you know, for me, as a writer, I think that, you know, when you're a writer, you're putting your thoughts and your views on the world and a relationship, I mean, you're married to one, out in the world to see what people think of it. And I've done it many times. You know, when people say to me, like, this is so crazy for you, like, your first show, and it's a hit. I'm like, bitch, this is my first show. This is just my first hit, you know? - Totally. - I've had a lot of stuff that I've tried to put out there, and when you're getting feedback that's like, it's missing this or it's missing that, or you don't really write real jokes or hard jokes, or it's not really about anything. There's no big event that's happening, you know? What's the engine? It makes you think, like, maybe I'm not cut out for this or maybe I don't have what it takes. So to have this land, the way that it did, really kind of undid a lot of those fears that have been instilled in me, which was like, I don't have it. - That's so great. And do you feel like it kind of paved those cracks over, like, and gave you more confidence? - Yeah, because the things that I was told I didn't have as a writer are the things that people like about this show. So I don't think that I could write the next James Bond movie. I don't think that is what I'm right for, you know? I just think that there's a lane now that I can do, and I don't feel a need to be in every lane. I'm happy to be good at this lane. I'm happy to be good at the rom-com lane. I like this lane. I don't need to be all things to all people because I don't think I'm capable of it. - We need rom-coms in this day and age anyway, guys. - By the way, we have one for you. - Oh, great. Well, I'm retired. - Oh, you're gonna have to unretire, honey. - Unretire, yeah. - Okay. - Like, the vasectomy, they can be undone. - That's true. - But, you know, Aaron, it's so true. It's like, I remember this studio saying to us about one project or whatever. Like, it reads like a play. You know, it reads like a play. Like, it's not, you know, and Aaron's like, but that's how I write. Like, I, not, not shicks up, but it was like another project. It's like, but I write, I have, that's how people talk. That's how people connect. That's how relationships evolve. Like, it's long-winded conversations with awkward pauses and, you know, and it turns out that, like, she didn't change her style to fit into what, you know, executives want to say, well, this is just how I write. If it's not gonna get bought, it's just not gonna get bought and we have a million other things we can do, you know? And nobody wants this reads like a play because that's how people talk. And that's how you fall in love with characters, you know? So it's, what is the plan? - Oh, sorry, go ahead. - No, I was just gonna say, I think when it comes to talking about, like, not knowing if your career's gonna work out or not knowing if your relationship's gonna work out, and all these things and having faith, it's like the thing that I've learned is, when you're dreaming about your perfect partner, your perfect job, like, you don't even know your own potential. It could be so much better than you even are imagining. And so when you open it up to being different than how you see it, it's like it, it's probably gonna end up being better than you thought it was. But different, maybe being a stepmom is literally gonna be the most rewarding thing that you've ever felt or it's going to be the relationship that you didn't realize you were ever gonna have. It's like with my engagement ring, I didn't even know my own potential. I was sending this guy rings that were very small. I had no idea when he gave me something I didn't want, it was gonna be even better than I imagined. (laughing) That is an insane, like, what? Where did that, sometimes we don't even know our own potential. But it does, doesn't it kill you, GP and Aaron, when you, like, thinking going back to our 20s and our 30s, and obviously we speak to women on our podcast. I think most of your audience is probably female. Don't you just wanna shake the 27 year olds at right as going like, I'm turning 30, my life is over. I don't know what I'm doing. You're like, oh my God, you're an infant. The best years are ahead of you. And you can't, we can only look at it. We can only look at it through that lens now that we're here and that life is now good. And you can't see that when you're 30. But God, I mean, our 20s suck so bad. - The 20s are, it's like a double bind. The 20s are so inherently difficult. None of us know who the fuck we are, what we're doing or where we're trying to go. And then we have this incredible societal pressure that we're supposed to be married and have a kid by the time we're 30. I don't know where, I mean, this is like a relic from like the days of, you know, having to have kids when you're 16, like when you're, it's so crazy. That's the one thing that I wish the most is that the 30s are the most incredible time for real discovery. That's when you really start to get a sense of who you are and what you want. You can start, I wasn't married when I was 30. You know, I didn't have a kid when I was 30. I, and I felt so much pressure. I felt like I was failing, you know, I felt, and it's so stupid, as you say. Like the 30 is so young. And especially now with like fertility technology, you know, you can, there's no time pressure the way that there used to be as well. Yeah. Well, in the time that you're just starting to kind of discover your career self and figure out who you are is right when you're supposed to be having the baby and getting married and it's right when they're telling you your eggs are getting old. Yeah, exactly. Like it's exactly right when you're feeling like I'm living up to my potential. I'm doing the thing I want to be doing on my career. It's like, oh, well, your eggs are going to be, you know, of no use in two years. I mean, it's just, you know, can you, are you guys glad to tell me any little tidbit, any little teaser on season two? When does it come out? First of all, comes out October 23rd. I mean, the season one was, you know, these two people meeting and figuring out what to do with these feelings. And it ended with him choosing her over his career. And so season two is figuring out how they're supposed to make that work. It's really what the next four months look like in that relationship. Oh, I'm so excited. I'm really, I feel really good about it. I have to say I feel really good and I, and I have to say too, like I, I love so much this, like, and you touched on it earlier, something that's so original about the show, which is like a paradigm of a good, healthy relationship. And people, you know, so often we see in romantic comedies, it's like the girl, you know, being stood up. And it's like all the examples of terrible guys. And it's like she has to traverse through a series of bad guys in order to, and I just love that it's just about these two really good people that are committed to this. Because I mean, you're in a great relationship. I'm sure you've experienced a version of this, which is being in toxic, complicated relationships is a little easy because you always have something you can blame for why it's not working. And you can always make it the other person's fault. And you can kind of behave badly the whole time because it's like there are no rules. And then when you meet someone and you're in a healthy relationship, you have to be all your shit gets exposed. Yes, it really does. You can't blame them for everything because they're not cheating and lying and pulling shit and saying one thing and doing another, they're showing up. And so you have to show up and you have to speak respectfully. And you have to listen to their version of the story. And you have to like better yourself and you can't slam doors and you can't cut them out. And you have to like be a real person. And, and I think that that felt really interesting to me to have that be the relationship that you analyze when you really want to be good enough for the relationship because that person's showing up. I couldn't agree with you more. And I think, you know, we need more examples of that in the culture, you know? Yeah. Yeah, don't you feel like we're so used to seeing the dynamic and, you know, modern day television where it's like, it's the guy that's unsure. It's like the guy that's like, I don't know. Like, I don't know. And it's usually the girl really wanting the commitment. Right. And I think that's something else that people really gravitated to is seeing that reversal. It's like, it was nice to see the man know exactly what he wants. Like, I want you and I'm willing to, you know, do whatever it takes to be with you. And it was her kind of vacillating between, I don't know, I don't like my career, my, like, it's just like, I think people really loved that dynamic as well. I see you here. Nice Jewish husband. Yeah. Sarah. Sarah, be open to it. But I think also the more, more than that, I felt like I was sick of seeing dynamics and shows where you have a strong woman. And the nice guy is sort of passive and soft. And you think in real life this would never work. He would never be able to manage a woman like this He would never be able to like, you know, hold all of this and she wouldn't stay attracted to this guy And so I really didn't want to show a dynamic that I couldn't see working in real life It's so great. Wait, so moving is Brad Jewish - yes Hello Aaron, where have you been? I don't know. I for some reason I didn't think of him as Jewish, but I guess he is Jewish too and your Jewish got Sarah You really need to join the party. I know Well, I'm I'm half technically and some of my more religious friends don't accept me because my my dad is the one who's Jewish, but Yeah, but that's old school. I mean reformed it is I totally accepts father and mother I mean that was just we didn't know who someone's father was you you just determined it by the mother because you knew for sure That was their mother, but now I know guys there's DNA tests like I also just say like I love this podcast so much I was saying to somebody you like I'm not gonna just now well I will to to your horn a little bit, but you are at the forefront of Pivoting and doing things where you don't know how people are gonna receive it and like nobody was doing podcasts when you started this podcast I think when you started this podcast. I was like what's a podcast? I'm not even kidding and it's like so cool that to be on this podcast and I'm such a I love This podcast. I listen to this podcast and I listen to like all in and the daily Yeah, like that's it. Thank you Sarah. I'm so nice of you. No, I just like you are you are such a freaking trailblazer and It's like you're so Inspiring to all of it to your friends to people the job. Oh my god What you got to be able to take you're the worst at taking on it. No, everyone knows you're amazing guys I'm talking about it. Oh my well, but it's just so nice of you to ask us to be on your podcast No, I'm I you know, I love you know, I really wanted to have you guys on because I think you are I You are you both are like separately and together this incredibly Like I love how outspoken you both are how honest you both are I love how you sort of clash and combine paradigms like oh we're supposed to be like if we're pretty then we can't have a personality and we can't have a brain And we can't like say the the really true true thing like I love how you guys are sort of punk rock in that way and how you're so yourselves and I know you said earlier that you don't Like confrontation Sarah, but like one of my favorite things about you is how forthright you are you know and how you aren't afraid to Say the confrontational thing when it needs to be sad. So I just I just I'm really inspired by you guys and how and I love seeing this like Incredible success blossoming in your forties, and it's like it's so exciting to see and I think it's set such an amazing Road map for other women who are like, you know so many of us are like what are we doing what direction should I go in and Like could this ever happen and so it's just so inspiring Well, I guess we're all really inspired by each other. It's cool It's also so helpful doing it with someone else like I really encourage young listeners I'm to partner like I want my daughters to go to college not because what they're gonna be major in is gonna be the career path They take but they're gonna meet their people there. They're gonna meet their future co-founders their future Mentors their future people they're gonna start businesses with or who they're gonna work for like it's all about Connection and every which way and yeah Aaron and I are sisters. Yeah, it was it's like a built-in situation, but not really I mean, I do Encourage but I think you're absolutely right like the having a co-founder, right? Oh, yeah, it's it's so I mean, I wish that I had a co-founder You know, I've I've had to build my business by myself and he's an artist. I was by myself You know, I think you're absolutely right on that Yeah, I mean, there are certain things. It's a it's a it's a solo mission. It's a one person thing But I do encourage people to put yourself out there and and find someone to counterpart find someone to do this with to do guys Go on bumblebiz. Yeah And find yeah, okay. I love you guys. You're the best Aaron I'll see you on the chat and about yeah literally will be I'm sure we have like 26 missed messages on the chat What do you guys do you guys just like sit around and like can't talk about it? Whatever you guys get a life, okay? I mean, what is this? You're just like, oh the laundry detergent When you want to talk about real shit call me up, okay? Guys, I love you both so much. Thank you so much for having us. It was so good to have you on here Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of cadence 13 studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate, and review all of our episodes which are available for free on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. The good holiday gift guides are our calling card. We scour the earth for the best options in every category to make it easy for you to find the right gifts for everyone on your list. Think beautiful jewelry, thoughtful wellness tools, smart kitchenware, clean beauty, and more unexpected finds. Whether you're looking for a little luxury or a big splurge, you'll find something that feels personal in our curation. Explore the gift guide at goop.com and as our gift to you, take 15% off your first purchase with code pod gift exclusion supply.