Erika Voss, Vice President, Engineering Platforms at Capital One Software: How to Break Into the Tech Industry With an Untraditional, Non-Technical Background

[MUSIC] Hey everybody and welcome to the Blind Ambition with Jack Kelly. It's your friend Rick from Blind and we have Erica Voss today from Capital One. She's the vice president of engineering and architecture and security. And that means she leads platform architecture and core engineering for Capital One software. And enterprise business to business software business at the big bank. She's responsible for the team building and extending Capital One's technology platform. Now before joining Capital One in 2021, Erica led leadership roles at several Fortune 500 software service companies including Amazon Web Services, Microsoft, Oracle and Salesforce, which was responsible for various global enterprise security and compliance programs. Erica most recently led the global incident response program at Salesforce. So all companies certainly that are users of blind. We've all heard of them. And so thank you so much for coming on the show Erica to kind of share your wisdom and walk us to your career arc. >> Yeah, thank you so much Rick. I'm excited to be here. >> It's speaking to the career arc. Okay, this has to be a first for us. We have what, 60, 70, 100 podcasts. And we haven't found somebody until now. I know Rick kind of left that out, but to me, that is so awesome. That's so amazing. If you don't mind, you just like how did that happen? And then how did you segue from that into tech? >> Yeah, it's a fun story, Jack. And it's kind of unique. So what's interesting is, I actually graduated from high school, three sisters, parents, that all of us down and we're like, you can go to college now, we'll pay for it. You can go to college later in life, you're going to pay for it. And I was like, I'm going to go make money as a good 18 year old, you know, call it or high school graduate. And so I actually went to become a nanny, which is kind of interesting. And so I had a newborn, a two year old that I was taken care of, did that for about five years. And then the family moved to France and asked me to go with them. And I was like, no, I'm going to go back home and get a job. So came back home, applied for a role at Department of Corrections as a corrections officer. And somebody said, why would you ever want to go work in corrections? And I was like, why not? I feel like that could be a fun journey. Like I'm a law-biting citizen. I believe in the rules and the policies and the procedures, all that stuff. And maybe I was thinking about pursuing a career in law enforcement. And so I applied for the role, got the job. And I was like, okay, this is pretty cool. And my first role as an officer was working for McNeil Island. And I remember sticking on this uniform, riding this boat, this like ferry across the water there in Washington State. And then, you know, the steel bars actually open like you see in the movies. I walk through it, clank behind me. And then next to you know, I'm standing in like this yard, this like massive backyard. And there's like 1200 inmates around me. And I have a radio and a pair of handcuffs. And I was like, I might not have thought this through. Did they give you like training to do before? Yes. So you do get training, you get to go to a corrections officer academy. But there was a backlog for the academy. So I had to work as an officer first without any like real formal training until I actually went to the academy, which was interesting. So I was in uniform for two and a half weeks before I went to the officers academy, the corrections officer academy. But still it was like, okay, like wow, I'm in a yard. And this is all I have is the radio and set of handcuffs. And I have 1200, you know, grown men that are like, look at me like, what are you going to do? And I'm thinking, well, what am I going to do? So it was man, I wasn't, you know, I was just like this. It was men. Jack and I actually ended up doing a closed custody intensive management unit. So I actually worked all over the state, Washington state penitentiary. Gosh, I worked for King County jail. I worked for a variety of different like organizations around corrections and, you know, transported the worst of the worst that people had to be locked down. And 23 hours a day and required a three man escort. And, but it was always close custody men, the maximum security men. That was, that was my, it's funny to say, but like that was my sweet spot. That's where I was good. That's where I was, I loved what I was doing and enjoyed it. And so I did that for, gosh, 13, 13 and a half years. So, you know, promoted through the ranks officer, sergeant, acting lieutenant stuff, like had a really good, great career and really enjoyed, you know, just engaging with the people and understanding the behavior aspects of it. And then, you know, and unfortunately, one of those situations ended up getting hurt at work, you know, in like an actual situation. And then as I was out on my duty, I was like, what is, what do I want to do? Like the goal was always to be a prison warden or, you know, maybe go to captain route, but it was like, such really what I want to do with my life. And so while I was on light duty, I went through our headquarters and actually had to present a class on preparedness, my emergency preparedness. Talked about, you know, how you can be prepared, talked about making sure you have good presents, you know, confidence, all these things and your verbal skills were huge and actually, of course, inside a prison. And our chief information security officer actually talked to me after the class and said, hey, have you ever thought about doing tech and I was like, nope. And I was like, like, I was very like, nope, no interest. And it was like, well, what about disaster recovery business continuity? And I was like, I don't know who you are, nicer, but like, I'm in a, I'm in a maximum security prison and like, you know, it's July, it's gorgeous outside. Like I'm working in a uniform outside basically, you know, making sure, you know, my entire shift of 2400 inmates, quite frankly, you're not going to like riot. Like, I don't know what disaster recovery or business continuity is. So we said, let's have a conversation. I think there's a skill set you have. And I was like, okay, so. He set up time, you know, how to phone call with me basically like two weeks later asked me to come back down to headquarters took me into this data center room where there was this massive mainframe. And he was like, what do you think about recovering that? And I was like, what the hell is that? I mean, it was just like this moment of like, I don't even know what that is. And he's like, it's a mainframe. That's how we actually track all of our offenders, all of our inmates throughout Washington state. And I was like, this is interesting. But I was like, what do I, how would you recover that? Like I'm looking at all these cables and wires and blinking lights and I'm thinking. I have a badge, a uniform rate, verbal leadership skills and can like run an entire shift, you know, 24 hours a day. Like, what is this going to do for me? What is this going to teach me? And he was like, that's, that's the piece I want you. You have the ability to connect with people. And he's like, and when you think about disaster recovery and business continuity, I need you to connect with people to make sure the system is up and running and that they have a plan to recover that. So that was the intersection to getting into it. So when I got injured, he talked to me about the spot. You know, he said, Hey, why don't you think about come into do this what they call it. Uh, systems training position. So it's kind of like a training program. And he's like, you know, it's 18 months long. You can come in as an entry level. You could figure it out. When I was like, I don't know. And then I started looking at going, uh, do I want to go back and work shift work? Like I was working Monday through Friday to five. Do I want to go back to the 2 p.m. to 10 p.m. shift and then get mandatory for overtime and work until 6 a.m. the next day. But I kept, but it was, it was actually a hard moment in my life where I had to really decide like I loved working inside the prison as weird as that sounds, but it was like I thrived in that culture. It was good. It was, you know, engaging. It was never the same thing every day. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't monotonous to me. It was, you know, paying attention to people process. It was paying attention to your surroundings and, you know, teaching new people. So like there was a whole element to it that I loved from a leadership capacity. And so I had like this long conversation with my partner at the time and she was like, I think you should take the role and she's like, you know, if it doesn't work out, you can always go back to uniform, which was true. So applied for the role, actually got the role and then ended up going into it and day two of working in there. We actually lost our entire active directory from basically a malicious employee and by C so basically said, you will never see this again in your career. But this is like grab the red binder or go into a war room. So in some level, it was an introduction to the same thing of what I was doing. It was a different type of preparedness. It was a different type of response. So I grabbed my red binder and it was like pocket protector and all and down the world room, we went and it was kind of funny. And yeah, like we had to recover it and then what was the response plan and the process. And as I was watching it and listening to people scream and yell and shout, I was like, hold on here, like where's the organization and kind of like opened my voice up from like being inside the prison and was like, who's in charge. You can't have 50 people in charge. Who's running this incident? Who is the commander? Who's going to make decisions? Who is what is this network bubble? What is this security bubble? Like started asking questions. And then ended up, you know, our CIO at the time was like, who the hell are you? And I was like, I'm trying to get organized chaos here for you. Like you have 50 people responding to something I'm assuming is bad because I don't know what's day two in my job. But like you gave me a plan and no one is following this plan. Like we're not going to be well, like recovered here if we don't start following the plan. So she actually like paused and my boss was like, probably not the person you should have said that too. And I was like, I don't know who she is. So like there was like this moment of like that's going to probably be career limiting suicide or you're something but ended up working to my advantage. So we like we put the structure in place. We started walking through the plan. I like went down the hall, printed out copies. Here's our disaster recovery plan. And then was lucky. Like that's kind of where my intro to tech really happened, but then it became almost the intro to my journey of like falling in love with tech. It's such an amazing story. and there's a lot to go over with it. But one takeaway, Rick, I'm curious how you feel about this too. I run a search firm to do this like 25 years. And the frustrating thing for candidates is that when they have a non-traditional background, and really they're just literally not viewed. You know, they won't even look at the resume. They're like, okay, you don't have exactly what you want. We want, so forget it. You don't even have a chance. So this is one of the best arguments I ever heard for taking somebody, not because they have the exact skills. 'Cause you know, if you look at a resume, and you look at a job description, you have to meet everything. And trust me, I'm not exaggerating. It's even worse than what I'm saying it. And your story shows that, hey, you can get leadership skills, management skills, thrive under pressure, and that crosses over. And people should look at that more. So I think this is, I love the story, right, Rick? I mean, is it, this is really interesting? - No, I think it's exactly right, because I, I think it's very easy for people, especially in the tech industry. I'm just gonna go out on the women's diet. But they're used to what they're used to, right? And so they look to their left, they look to their right, and they look and see, oh, well, all of these software engineers, they went to college and they studied computer science. - Wait, to stand for MIT, they had the-- - Yeah, let me tap on the shoulder. - Right, and I, it's a known quantity. I know what I'm getting. I might have been in the same class as they were, had the same professor, had the same internships. And so, like, you don't have to guess, right? Whereas if someone does a boot camp or self-learned, you're like, oh, well, do they really know or how did they learn or what did they actually know how to do? And there's this kind of like, impatience or this like, inability to say, like, oh, I don't want to like bother to figure out if your skills translate, which is such a complete waste of like talent. And it's just such a missed opportunity. - Yeah, it's funny that you say that because we were talking in like one of our team building meetings here and I was telling my team, I can teach anybody tech, but I can not teach people skills. I can not teach leadership. - You can't teach. - And you're both are spot on. - You cannot teach how to thrive under pressure. So like, folks who burn out so fast, they look at somebody like me and they're just like, my God, you're the energizer of any of you're still going and I'm like, you have not experienced real stress. I'm not discrediting if there's an out-excessed stress fall. But like, can you make a decision under pressure? Like, in some level, like, I always pride the fact of, my prison journey has taught me how to be a phenomenal leader more than anything because to your point, like you said, Jack and Rick, it's I can thrive under pressure, I can make a decision, I can quantify it with data now. And then look at the tech and go, okay, where do we need to pivot to the next thing versus, well, Erica, you didn't grow up as a software engineer. You don't understand cloud platforms or you don't understand the challenges. And it's like, I can read a book like everybody else and I can read, you know, SRE availability like everybody else. It's that you can teach the tech, but you can't teach how to connect with people. And that I actually think has a lost cause that we have to stay in age. I think, you know, in some level, COVID has done great things for evangelizing tech to be better, but it's also hurt people in being able to connect with people still and you can't find that skill set. That's not something that you're going to teach in a college anymore. - Now, how did you make that crossover, that first crossover into, let's say the official tech world? How did you do that? How did it work? Did people look at you funny? Did you feel awkward? - I did. - I did. - Yeah, I did. So once I got the role and then I ended up going to speak at a conference down in Las Vegas and talked about how you could use like FEMA's incident command system structure into IT events. And so that was like the real moment where afterwards, I mean, that was a state government employee. I was gonna be like every other person in Washington state and work for the state. It was a good job, good career. And I frankly like I was gonna be content making $75,000 a year for the rest of my life. That was what you did. And so with this conference, I had somebody come up to me afterwards and was like, hey, what you're talking about with disaster recovery is different. It's not the norm and like why would you use the structure and how does that take shape protect teams and ended up having this full-on conversation with this guy. And he connected with me on LinkedIn, which then I learned what LinkedIn was. And I had like a small profile photo and I think it was even like me back in the day in my office or uniform. And I was like, I'm a trainer. That was like the big thing to talk about. I could train. So he connected with me and then he reached out a couple of months later and said, "Hey, I've got a role. I'm interested in you coming back to do all things around IT disaster recovery and figure out how we're gonna do some of this stuff called the cloud, which is infrastructure as a service, by way back in the day when it first started. And like work with GSA around FedRap." And I was like, all foreign words to me, but the role sounds interesting. And so, ended up interviewing for the role. It was lucky that the opportunity got the offer, learned also when you go through those opportunities. It's good to ask questions. I was still pretty young and to ask any questions, which led me to Fairfax, Virginia, 'cause the role was in Fairfax, Virginia. So I really did it. Yeah, surprise. I'm telling my partner at the time, I'm like, "Hey, I'm moving to Virginia." And she's like, our daughter is a senior in high school. Like, good luck, have fun. I'll see you in a year." And I was like, "We can totally make this work long distance." Which naturally, of course, we did, 'cause we've been together now 17 years. But it was interesting. So I packed up. I moved back east and ran into an apartment and went to work for our company. And that's all I did was everything, I teased disaster recovery and then started breaking down systems and started talking about how do we recover? And like, what is SLA? And by the way, what is a recovery time objective or recovery point? What are we doing around data and data protection? And that was the real introduction because I ended up getting massively high profile clients because the luxury of prison, people like to connect to me because I was a realist. I was personable. I was an extrovert. I was outgoing. I was like, "There was enough filter with me. I was gonna tell you the truth, like your backup plan sucks." I mean, you know, and might have sometimes had some powerful words when we were going through an exercise, but like, there was no BS with me. And that actually created my path for me a little bit more because people felt like they could relate to that. Like, "Oh, you're gonna give me the good, the bad, and the ugly." But you actually want to roll up your sleeves and help me fix it. And I was like, "Yes, that's what I'm here to do is to help you fix it. I want you to not feel an outage or feel the pain or I want you to be able to recover." And so that's really where I got my true IT journey. So those moments of the mainframe, you know, experience I had at a state level where that active directory incident introduced me into really understanding response and preparedness and why it's important to think about, you know, it's great. You can build cool, innovative things. But if that thing breaks, how you recover from that could make or break your business. And that's where it really became fun for me. And that's what opened the doors to go work for these Fortune 500 companies that I've been lucky to work for and I've had a great career. But I still want to do more. I still want to change industry. - You're just to take a pause there for a sec. You know, Rick and Erica, think about it's so interesting. So you had two people. I think sometimes luck plays such a great part of things. So you had two people, two guys who kind of, I don't know where, like you didn't know them. Basically turns you on to things that led you to this career path, which is, you know, is there something that you did for that to happen or is it just right place, right time? - Yeah, I actually do think it's a right place in the right time. And I think there's also an element now where you can kind of create your right place in the right time too. But for me, I truly say my journey into tech was because I had, you know, quite frankly, two people who saw something in me and said, I'm gonna take a chance on this person. They might not be 100% amazing, but based on, you know, presenting to an audience or presenting a training class, there's a skill set there that she has that I'm looking for. It was different for them. And I think it was the appeal of, you know, having the confidence, having the presence, which are things I learned, you know, from working inside a prison system that made me, you know, stronger for these people to go, I could teach her something, but like the fact that she's willing to go into a room and these confidence, and has confidence of who is in the room. Like that was huge for them to say, okay, we could teach her how to do this job and she'll take it and run with it. And I did each, each and every time was, okay, this is the challenge. Okay, if I don't know it, I'm gonna tell you I don't know, but I'm gonna go learn it. And that's what I would do. I would spend the time going to learn it. - Rick, Erica, what do you think of this? You know, I grew up in a very kind of working class area in New York, and a lot of my relatives, family, are very blue collar kind of workers. And I think in tech and in society, people look down upon people who are, you know, kind of blue collar, you know, rough around the edges, but I find out from personal experience, they're really super smart. I mean, you know, they're, they maybe they're not gonna ace their SATs, but they just, like they know how to lead, you know, how to talk to people, they're street smart, they understand. And just like we talked earlier, this is like another argument for like, hey, we have to be more open in terms of hiring different kinds of people. Maybe if you don't, just because you don't have a college degree or you didn't go to the right college, or whatever you, you get, you know, get passed over, but they're losing out on, on talent, because we talk about DEI, right? But you think don't think of things like, okay, what about somebody who is like in a rural area? That's kind of odd person out. You got to think of that person too, you know what I mean? Or so who was a correction officer who like, okay, we got to think of these people too, right Rick? I mean, you don't see that. much in all these places. Or do we do or are they there? No, we we simply don't right because no like the industry still has a lot of work to do in terms of you know not only like what we look like but also like our backgrounds right so it wasn't until recently I would say during the COVID-19 pandemic that some tech companies were willing to look at folks especially for entry level roles that didn't attend college right or maybe didn't attend college but had 10, 5, 10, 15 years of work experience that they could come in as like a senior or experienced professional. So it's like even some of these basic things that are kind of like well this person has had a successful career or 5, 10, 15 years didn't matter that they didn't go to college like no they they were clearly like an engineer or clearly an accountant or clearly a PR professional like we should just hire them and look at you know they're what they've been able to achieve and their outcomes um and that's only a recent last two, three year finale that's new remarkable it's it's embarrassing to be frank. I think we also have like a problem with uh like veterans as well right where people have this stereotype of veterans as like oh well you're just out in the field and you're like shooting at things we're really like the military has its own like basically society right there's jobs every type of jobs there's IT jobs there's tech jobs within the military and and a lot of folks don't realize that or remember that um and they struggle to to even recognize that and so you then you have like veterans that that have difficulty struggling or transitioning into civilian life after their service and you're so right it's these little things right that I think if we like kind of like deconstruct things and just say like at your base level like what can you do what have you achieved um and just go from there I think we'd be all a lot better yeah so this how are you there's this guy who uh who I was working to help place in compliance at you know major bank and he's so frustrated because he's telling me he was in the military and don't laugh I don't know like whatever these things are but like he ran you know over so this big battalion of X amount of people and it was you know huge it would be like the equivalent of being at a company and you're running like what you know i reckon was was doing is in terms of like you know 100 people 200 people and then he couldn't even get like an interview for a you know independent person you know do X you know that wasn't so great and he was just like jack I don't get it I've managed like a hundred people you know I've been in tours of duty and he's spot on now and it's and he was so like and he was so frustrated he ended up going to I think the police or whatever but he didn't want to he really thought he could he could go over and go into you know wall street and and because of that experience but no didn't uh yeah it's fascinating though but it you you guys are saying the right thing and that's the funny part about it like I remember my first manager job that I interviewed for I remember like the advice was you know think twice speak one always remember your audience you know dress for the job you want not the job you have when I was going into the interview process and one of the questions was tell me about a time you've led you know a massive organization and so I talked about my prison experience and they were like no like a time you led people and I go I'm running a shift of a hundred and like 47 officers and by the way I'm managing risk of 24 hundred inmates not rioting like here's here's the transferable skill for you and they were like so you don't think you you've led teams and I was like oh my god it was that person serious like that's what they were like that was like I will never forget some of these like first time job interviews I had transitioning from like going from consultant and like interviewing and it was like some of these questions that I was like you got him kidding me and it was like well yeah but like you don't like how are you driving down risk and I was like I'm I don't have a prison rioting like that's loss of life that's a loss of technology like that public like that's public relations nightmare for like this is real stuff like we have to get in real life so much stuff. I can literally I can feel that same pain and I think even today in 2023 that pain is still there and I think that's what's interesting for folks is how do you how do you change that mindset how do you change that shift and like I am a firm believer of saying I will talk to anybody and everybody all the time and everyone's like you need to stop talking to people and I was like I love to talk to people you get to know them as a person and when you talk to them you get to know them as a person you can hear their story and you could hear their journey and then you think yourself there's something in there that I'm resonating with well then when you get that role open of even an entry level I go back to that person I'm like I got an opportunity here for you do you have interest that person is gonna work a hundred times harder faster smarter and better because they know it's an opportunity to do something amazing and it's like I will take a team of 500 of those people every day and grow them over the next 10 years then like great I just hired John or Sarah right out of MIT who quite frankly feels a little bit of entitlement of I'm a software engineer and I'm looking for $400,000 a year okay but what if you delivered by the way why are you not looking me in the office when I'm interviewing you and it's like you're too busy on social media and 10 other things no thank you and everyone's like oh you're losing out on talent am I am I really losing out on talent they can't focus on me I do have to ask was there a point in your career where people didn't say like what the heck are you doing here or like you know like these like weird like well what did you really do like at what point did those kind of just go away and you were able to just like oh my gosh that's so yeah I don't know that I would say it a hundred percent ever win away so I do think at times there's still pockets and I'll give you here's an interesting example so I'm a huge ally I believe strong an allyship and everybody has a voice everybody has something to say in some fashion I don't believe you need to see the table I believe you know build your own table or bring it like go do it but what's interesting is when I go and do conference presentations or speaking events sometimes that are like out in you know the public so to speak I show up you know socks button down to your die where a tie and so I get met with the paws of like okay so like how do you identify and I'm like I'm a America I'm a she/her and they're just like but then why do you wear a tie and also like are you pushing to be the LGBT person in tech or are you pushing to be like you just want to push the boundaries to make people uncomfortable and I go I'm just a technology leader period I am here to lead and share my story and share my journey and talk about what that looks like like just because you're choosing to judge me based on the fact that I wear a tie who cares would you prefer I wear a bow tie would you prefer like that's so rude by the way like showing the same thing right but yet in some fashion like it's funny society still kind of looks at that of like you're showing up when I was you know working for as a consulting agency I showed up for my first presentation and my boss was like oh my god you wore a tie and I go yeah I feel like look I look good I I'm sharply dressed like shower it like I'm like I'm here like I'm gonna nail this presentation he's like why do you have a tie on like he was more uncomfortable and I was like it's because that's me that's me as who I am like I'm comfortable and I am my presence confidence like I'm gonna go in I'm gonna deliver this great presentation and so we did and ended up I ended up landing the client and they put like yeah we are excited to work with Erica my boss was still like I can't believe you landed that and I was like I can't believe you are still hung up on a tie like seriously but like it was and that was only 10 years ago and so like think about that that's still only 10 years ago and I'm still and so they're still a little bit of that challenge today which is which is unfortunate but yeah so I don't know that it's ever really gonna get go away I think that's to your point Rick like what you're saying it's like how do we change industry in some regards that's for the the industry and you know the tech industry we have to kind of mature a little bit like separate from being our corrections officer when I went back to school I was a janitor I was an administrative assistant so I'm there's my organizational skills and as a janitor like I learned to work hard and like get things done in a certain time frame and so when I walk into buildings I acknowledge everybody and everyone's like oh like look at you like your social and I think it's not social it's just we're human and like it's good to acknowledge people and just say hi how are you but you need to mean it and so it's just like my career has been an incredible journey and I'm thankful and blessed for where I'm at today but I'm also like we need to be better we need to change industry for better and how are we gonna do it we gotta do it collectively as a as a group and so curious like now that you are you know quote unquote at this have that seat at the table at the front of the table you know like what are the different things that you do to kind of like create this kind of culture within your own teams like how does it affect your hiring and and your mentorship and like how you grow your team and kind of develop there yeah for me by far like I share my passion about working in tech I share Here's what my journey has been. It's different for everybody. I think that's the important thing to really resonate with, especially when you're building a team and hiring is everybody's got their own journey. I think even in tech, you need to make it part of your DNA of like, who are you? Like people ask that question, well, what are you like as a leader? And I think you've got to be able to exude that, especially now in this day and age through a Zoom call. You're not really interviewing anybody in person anymore. It's like kind of gone to the wayside. So you're now needing to sell that person. I'm glad they want to come work for you. And I mean, do you want to come work for the person who's going to show up on the call? Hi. So I have a couple questions for you. And they're like scripted questions. And you're just like, God, is this where I want to work? Versus, hey, how are you? There's some energy that you can feel with the person even through a Zoom call where you're like, I don't know what I'm going to do. But I think I want to work for that company or that person. And I think that's part of what we need to do is make a part of your DNA be passionate about what you do. I consistently tell people still to this day. I love what I do. I love working in tech. I want to change tech to be for the better, of course. And the day that I no longer believe that is probably the day I will get out of tech. But then I still want to go teach people how to work in tech. So I still have a tie that I always have around tech. But I think it's that. And looking at your team dynamics, what are the background? And what is the skill set you're looking for? And do you have a role that is so technical that you need a super deep tech person or do you have a role that is so technical? You'd be OK with someone who's got, like you said, three or four years of experience, but no degree, but also can connect with a person. Like I would take that person hands down more than likely over the person who's been phenomenally in tech for 50 years. And yes, they can deliver 10,000 things. But if you still can't connect with one person, I get tired. I think that creates the challenge for you. So I think it's a lot of that being able to talk to people about what your story is, the journey of where your company is going. And what I call developing that rhythm of business muscle, it's you got to be able to understand what that looks like. And how can you build, run, and maintain as fast as what your business is doing and being able to articulate that back to people is that's how you really grow and skill talent on a team and then also hire for your team. Can you share your pitch if you have one for if someone is like interviewing with you? And you know, like you could tell that maybe they're like not too sure or maybe they have other authors. Or maybe they're telling you, you know, they're interviewing elsewhere and they're waiting to hear back. Like what's the pitch for someone to join your team? Oh my gosh, my pitch by far is like, let me tell you where we're going and growing. Like that's the big thing. And I have this, I have this little thing I call it the triple D. And so you know how there's diners, drive-ins, and dives. The my thing is, let me tell you what your triple D is going to be, what are you going to do on my team? What are you going to drive to execution? And what are you going to deliver with excellence? And like, that's the pitch. That's what lands people. They're like, oh my god, there's a vision. There's a path, there's deliverables I can hear. There's a chance for me to execute really well. There's an opportunity to be on a team that is changing and doing things for better. There's a super passionate leader. I talk about career development and training and goals. And I'm like, you're going to come in. And in your first 90 days, like we are going to do your triple D. And we're going to talk about your career development. And the books I want you to read and the free training courses that are out there. Like it's not just you investing in me. It's also me investing in you. And people don't get that anymore. And I think that's the sweet spot. So telling people, here's your triple D. They're kind of like, what? And then they hear it. And they're like, I'm in. Let's go. Yeah, triple D I coined about seven years ago. And that's kind of been the pitch that I've taken with me every spot I've ever worked at is, is here's what it is. Here's the triple D. Here's what we're going to do. Here's what we're going to drive. Here's what you're going to deliver. Because people want to hear what can they actually own and be successful at. And so when you have a plan, that resonates. Well, we're all working towards a common architecture. And there's a team of 52. You don't hear, well, what do I get to do? Because that's what tech is. We want to do something exciting. We want to change something and be innovative and be like, this is cool. And I'm working on the sexy project. And that's what it is. So you've got to have your pitch to get that person. I'm imagining myself. I'm getting really excited. I'm imagining myself in an interview with you. And one of the questions that I think of, especially with platform architectures, kind of security, business continuity, it's unpredictable. So can you give us insight into how you personally juggle work and life as you've gotten in these progressively more senior roles, these more higher impact, more consequential roles and larger companies. Have you seen throughout your career that you've been spending more time at work, has the stress gotten higher over time? Or how do you manage all of that? Yeah, I don't, you know, funny, oddly enough, I don't know that I would say my job has gotten any more stressful. Because I think for me, I always look back at what Jack said. Like my job was stressful when I was in the prison. My job now is not stressful. My job that has the stresses really like, how do we make sure we're picking the right technologies? How do we make sure we're doing what's best for the business, driving down risk that we're adopting good industry best practices, to be well governed or well managed? Or how do we say that for capital one software as an enterprise B2B business, here's what we're doing that is great for our customers. Or here's our data management solution that's actually going to make you operate better in the cloud. So that's really what my challenge is is more about, how do I keep my team motivated that we're doing the right cool things and we're working on all the good stuff. And so I think that's probably been the biggest and the interesting thing for me, especially this day and age is that each role I've had has given me more opportunities to lead bigger teams, bigger projects, bigger things at scale. Despite, you know, if, you know, people can look and go, oh, gosh, you're, you're this place for two years, this place for two and a half years. And it's like, but if you look, I have the traditional tech resume. Like I've grown my scope. I've continued to grow and lead and build a skill set and continue to manage large, you know, cloud journeys or things like that or transformation. That's that is what we want to do. And that is what we should be doing. And we should be excited about that. If it's stressful, then then we're doing something wrong. And so for me, like life balance is, I have an incredible life balance working for capital one software. Like I don't have, you know, the stresses, I think probably that most people do in this day and age because if you love what you do, it's not stressful. And I think that comes back to who you are as a person and what's part of your DNA is, if you're passionate about the work that you do, it's not work. And I think that's, that's the difference of what it is. And, you know, I, I look forward to like, you know, the next big thing that I get to take on and lead or, you know, what's going to be, you know, what is my career look like even five or 10 years from now? But it's like that journey is still comes back to those, what I call nail the basics. I still, I've got people leadership. I've got, you know, I can handle crisis events and probably make better decisions faster than most people could who've been in crisis management, you know, or new to a crisis management leadership spot because I go back to my old mindset of like, all right, what's the process? What's the procedures? What's the tech? You know, are reshending things down correctly? Do I have a customer impact? And so it's all those things where I think I've never felt like I've not belonged, but I've also never felt like I've been in a role where like, dear God, I am stressed out to the max prison for sure. But like, that's a life or death situation every day that I would deal with walking into the doors. So for me, I don't look at the role I have today or any role that I've had has been life or death. And so I think that's actually a strength that I bring to, hey, we're going to solve this and this problem might take us nine months, but we're going to have a good time solving it, but we're actually going to be able to solve it because, you know, in my mindset, I think no one's going to die at the end of this day. And that's just a different mindset. No, I appreciate that because I think, no, we have a lot of listeners, a lot of like blind users in the community that are at this kind of like middle stage in the career. They're deciding whether they want to jump shift to an even larger company or they're trying to figure out, oh, is now the right time to kind of head on this management track. Yeah. They're a little bit anxious about the added scope of work and responsibility and how that might infect their, you know, their personal well-being, right? But it seems like there's three different things that I almost kind of want to summarize, right? One is if you just look at your basic skills, right? The foundation that you've had, like things can be stressful because you've seen them already and you've done them and indeed down in your heart, you actually know how to achieve them, right? So it's almost like breaking it down and kind of taking it one step at a time, right? To not get old. Correct. Yeah. And then the second is just having that like confidence in yourself, right? And being able to say like, I actually quite like this. So it doesn't feel like a chore, it doesn't feel like work. Yeah. Right? And then the third is also just having like a great team around you. Yes. And I actually don't have to do it by myself, right? Correct. Like you have other folks that are right there with you, that you trust, that also trust you. Yeah. And together you can achieve great things. Yeah. And you're spot on and I think that's the piece that when people always talk about wanting to get into management, I always ask people, do you want to manage or do you want to be a leader? And they're like, it's one in the same. And I was like, it's not. They're two very different things. You could be a manager and manage a team of five day in a day out and be content with A leader is your managing large scale organizations. You're dealing with of multiple behaviors, you're dealing with multiple, you know, obstacles, objectives or deliverables and you've got multiple challenges and you're being pulled 18 different ways, you don't get to be in the tactical leads anymore as a manager, your job is to deliver strategic solutions. And it's different. And so when you explain that to people, it's funny. You find that the person that is like, I'm excited to manage, come back out and go, I think I just want to manage. I don't know that I ever want to lead. And I think that's the piece you have to kind of figure out when you think about getting into management or leadership is, you know, what's the path you want? But then also, what's the development? You still have to develop, even if you're a manager or a leader. You have to think about your own leadership development program and you need to be responsible for creating that. And I think, you know, when I went from manager to leader, I realized that's where I started to realize I needed to invest in need. Do I have an executive coach? Do I have a leadership development program? Are there things from, you know, online, you know, journals or things that I can read and picking up a magazine and understanding when someone says, hey, this is impacting your brand. What does that mean? I didn't even know I had a brand. So to speak, like, you have to think about all those things from a leadership perspective versus, oh, hey, as a manager, sweet, I'm not the responsible for my team of five. And we've got this PI planning. And like, we'll have to do these 10 deliverables. Like, it's very easy to be a people manager, almost on some level. It's very different to be a leader. And you have to think about that and what that looks like for you. I mean, can I ask you for your advice? This is something that took me a long time to kind of transition through and realizes that transition between like managing like responsibilities and like functions to managing people, to managing outcomes. And that will last part was like, very challenging for me, right? Because I thought, oh, my work would speak for itself. You know, if I just do all the little things, surely it would add up, like I'm doing the right things directionally, you know, surely like, it would make outsized impact or make business impact or consequential, but you know, oftentimes it didn't. And I had to like bang my head against the wall so many times. Like, can you break it down for us and how you learn to kind of like elevate your leadership style and your management? Yeah, definitely when I think about the outcomes, it's I like to break down the outcome is what is the thing we're going to deliver and like what is it? What does success look like when we actually deliver it? And so that's where you need to make sure you're partying with the right stakeholders, understand who's your customers like when I look at my team, for example, we own, you know, platform engineering for capital one software. And it's like everybody then is a customer of my platform. I the application teams run on top of me. So my customer reach is massive. And so I could have an application team that needs a certain outcome. But that can be very different than my business operations team. And so for me, what I do is I spend the time getting my customer feedback and almost like do an internal like customer review with them of like, here's the outcomes we've agreed upon. Here's the breakdown of the deliverables, the time frame. Here's the resources or the funding that is needed. Are we in agreement that this is what what success looks like for you? Once you say this is what success looks like for you, it's funny. The conversation changed. It's like, well, no, I actually don't care about those three things. OK, but those three things are tied to this one outcome that you say is a big thing. And it's like, is that big thing still the top thing? And like when you start kind of pushing and pulling on the thread, that's where you really find out what is success. And to your point, that's when I'm teaching my senior leadership team is you have to understand your customer requirements, but also your business requirements. And then go back and say, what's the outcome you're going to deliver upon that? Because to your point, if not, I watch them. We're going to boil the ocean. We're not going to deliver anything. Performance management is going to go around. And I'm going to have an entire organization going, why didn't deliver anything? And then they start freaking out. And then you've got this massive churn that runs so quick through your org. And then you're still looking at it going, well, God, what did we deliver? Well, that's because you didn't solidify the outcomes. And so that's that. That customer mindset is really what's key for me. And that's kind of the piece that I teach back to, like I said, my senior leadership team. And even the organizations that I've worked for in the past, it's your customer of my service offering. And my service offering is platform engineering, cloud, cybersecurity, whichever. Here's how the outcomes are going to be delivered for you to be successful. And then once they hear that, that's what they're looking for. What can you take off my plate versus, oh, crap, you're going to make me do the work with you? Yep. Yep, we're in this together. No, you appreciate that. I think I'm curious. Are there any things that kind of the promotion that you're most proud of earning through your career, like the outcome that you're most excited of having accomplished or achieved? Like how do you earn that? Yeah, I mean, from a work perspective, I think going from director to senior director was probably the big thing. I feel like when you're a director, you're still managing things. And when you become a senior director and then naturally, of course, vice president, it's-- you're actually viewed as a leader. You no longer actually get to say no. Your job is to now solve, regardless. And so you have layers underneath you that you have to make sure you have your pulse on the orb to understand what's getting done. And so I think that was the transition for me to realize, oh, my gosh, I'm no longer a manager. I'm not a senior leader. I brand-mattered. Think twice, speak once mattered. Knowing my audience mattered, dressing for the job I had, not the job I wanted mattered. Because people look to me as like, you're a senior leader in this organization. And in my mind, I always like, I'm just a director or I'm just a senior director where it was like, oh, my gosh, you're the senior director that's now going to present a solution to a president. That's a different thing. And that's a different outcome. And so that by far would be the biggest transition, I think, for me from a career perspective. And then personally, just I mean, getting my doctorate to me was huge just because I did it while working. And I remember realizing when I got the graduation, notice of like, you've achieved this. I was like, this was crazy. I did it in five and a half years, like that resonated for a quick second. And then I was like, oh, my God, it took me five and a half years when I worked with other people who took time off from work. They took a leave of absence from work to go do their doctorate. And so I think for me realizing that, I'm like, in academic land, I viewed as a subject matter expert in a thing was kind of like, wow, I made it. But I'm still like, what's next? What's next for me? (laughs) - That's a good question. So what is next? Do you have anything in mind? - You know, I don't know. Like I naturally want to continue to lead big organizations. I of course, naturally want to stay in tech more than anything. It's for me. I want to help change industry. That's the biggest thing for me. I want to make sure we're showing up well as an organization. I want us to be better at nailing the basics and solving the hard problems that I think sometimes we forget to do. And just make sure we're really showing up well and that everybody is represented. And people realize there's a voice. And that voice can matter whether it's on a Zoom call or you're in person. It's everybody has something they can bring to their own table. - Now I'm curious, have you kept in touch with the folks that got you in the tech industry? You know, the CSO in Washington State, the person that kind of scouted you at the conference? - Yeah, that's funny. So the person who scouted me in the conference like I don't actually know where he's at this day and age. I have looked him up a few different times on LinkedIn. And then the CSO for Washington State is actually a mentor and I just had lunch with him two weeks ago. - Oh, but it was great. It was pretty cool to go have lunch and he was like, that was like the moment where I was like, "Well, what do you think, Peter?" You know, like, here I am. You know, how does this look and feel? And he was just like, you were the one, you were the one on the team that I told everybody, watch this one. - Wow. - She's gonna do great things. - That's all I said. - And it like that kind of still till the state gives me chills. And it's, it was pretty cool. Pretty cool to still be able to stay connected with him. And he was like, you were destined for great things and you told everybody, I'm going to do great things. Just watch. And I was like, 'cause it's not a competition, but it is. (laughing) - Do you think, do you think, Eric, that when you have somebody who believes in you and maybe put it yourself aside just generally and maybe you're not sure how much you believe in yourself, that you feel you're gonna work harder, better, smarter because you want to prove that person right. Like they had the faith in you and now you feel, I got to deliver. You know, I owe it to myself and I owe it to that person. Does that make sense? - Yeah. - Is that? - Yeah. - No, a million percent. I definitely would say, when you find that one person that believes in you, you will, in some level, like you will die making them see that they can't believe in you. And it's like, you will never-- - The psychological hack. - It is. It is a psychological hack. I remember there was a person that I wanted to go work for and I was like, I want this job. And here's what I'm gonna do. And I remember like there was a moment in the conversation of like, I don't know that you're the right person for this role. And I was like, I'm gonna show you that I am, but like did my homework and paid attention to the team and understand their business goals and objectives. And it was like this whole thing. And like I read about the company and their annual 10K. Like I did all this work to really show up prepared because I wanted them to see like, oh, you actually did it. And like got to the whole process and got to the end. And it was incredible. Like I got the opportunity and I was like, Why did I? get the opportunity like I would love to hear the feedback. I'm always looking for feedback and it was like because you actually showed up prepared you showed that you showed us that you cared and that you wanted to do it and they were like why did you pick us for a person little at the time I had I think two other offers and I was like because you you gave me a chance that you believed in me that of something that for a role that I was probably 80% qualified for you're willing to take a chance on that other 20% and so yeah definitely. And that's a different part. And the other thing we talked about. This is almost like excuse kind of language. It's like it's like if you like what you don't think I could do it I'm gonna do it and then I get you a fire burning right. Yeah it does. What do you mean? How dare you you know you're more you're probably thinking how dare you question me I'm gonna do whatever it is it is it is it is totally it's totally that thing like I and I do that even with my team today like I tell them I am more successful if you tell me you don't know because you're gonna go find out that's what I'm looking for you to say to me you can't know everything especially in technology let's be real people but like telling me you don't know tells me you are eager to go learn it and like I remember saying that to my boss I think like a month ago I was like you know what I don't know but you know what I'm gonna go find out and like that resonates with somebody because they're realizing you're an open honest person who's like to your point like you said Jack like shit you either know something or you don't okay well if I don't know it I'm gonna go find out like that's that's what we need to be doing in tech teach people it's okay to say I don't know I mean I'm gonna put a finer point on it we need a bit more humility we do we do we do we do the industry oh gosh yes we do some humility and some like be humble just a little bit you don't think that's a little bit more you know humble or no it's still well confidently no yeah I'm like I'm like a plus one yeah yeah I mean on blind you still see like oh is this the end of 500 thousand dollar aid compensation packages right and you know it just hasn't shook out yet that like oh no there were like thousands of people getting laid off every single week right and right while people are making memes at Google about the snacks on offer in the kitchen right it's just like it's kind of like a this connect that's still existing today yeah it is I mean you can even look at look at the people who love being remote and now companies want you to come back look at the people who are boy kind of what why do you want me why am I coming back and it's like why would you not want to be visible why would you not want to come back into an office you were just in three years ago complaining about visibility promotion gross and all these things and now it's like hey well I'm coming into the office when I try like for me when I travel hey I'm coming into the office does anybody want to come and see me oh I feel obligated to go what what you're your bosses here why would you not want to come and hang out exactly like I'm traveling cross country so you're two hour drive to my you know 12 hour travel today I'm not really seeing the the challenge here for you but when I think of that next leadership project I'll be sure to find the person who did come into the office no that's exactly it yeah and I think it's it's it's the little things that really add up it is time in your career and they compounded these snowball and they become this huge thing that clearly makes an outside step yeah 100% agree no I appreciate your pearls of wisdom Erica and kind of you having the courage to to share your experience in your story and say like look like you you don't have to have this like fancy degree and have this like perfect career art but truly like you can be a leader in tech in financial services in Fortune 500 um we we just ain't true to yourself but also I mean that confidence to say I have to have these like basic foundational experiences that that that clearly apply and these skills transfer and and I'm gonna show it to you yep yes 100% it's so true thanks for covering on the show thank you and thanks so much thank you so much that's it for the blind ambition if you enjoyed the show please leave us a five star rating and a review and don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts thanks for listening