‘Erika Should STEP DOWN!’ One Year On From Charlie Kirk Death & Candace Owens Feud

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Candace Owens has nothing more than a pure Christian love for Erica. No, she does not. Why are you not being honest? She thinks she's a terrible person. Exactly one year ago, Charlie Kirk was shot and murdered. The consequences have been profound, above all for his two young children and his wife, Erica, but also for the culture he did so much to shape. Love him or loathe him, and many were in each of these camps, he was known by almost every young person in America. And what he represented to them, whether they realized it at the time or not, was that ideas are formed and arguments are settled by debate, by open democratic debate. The aim is to win people over by engaging them, not to hide away in silos in which they go away. A divided and embittered America needed more of that. With his murder, it's only become more bitter and more divided. The new big tent MAGA he worked to create, often by inviting dissenters to his turning point events, has collapsed. And it's bitterly ironic that one of the catalysts for that implosion was the true crime saga which has followed his murder. There are always valid unanswered questions. There's always good reason to distrust the official position. The problem in this case is that I've listened to all the evidence, and I believe it. It's difficult not to have a cynical view about the people. For those who roll their eyes or spew abuse at me for saying that, I have a perfectly simple request. Well, prove me wrong. Well, joining me now is Megyn Kelly, the host of The Megyn Kelly Show. Megyn, welcome back to Uncensored. Great to be with you, Piers. You did a great post this week where you said, The combination of the Lindsay Clancy story, the one-year mark for Charlie's murder, and the 25th for 9-11 is a lot of darkness for one week. Hug your kids. Go outside. Hold hands. Thank God for the privilege of being alive, and say a prayer for the lost and grieving. It really moved me that. I thought you hit, absolutely hit the nail on the head. You've got these three things colliding, all of which are incredibly dark, in different ways, but they're all incredibly dark. And sometimes you've just got to take a moment, haven't you, and step away from this and realize what you have and look at perhaps the positives of life. That's exactly right. And I think, you know, it's been sort of a slow build this week for a lot of people. I think there may be many people out there listening who have been feeling like a sense of melancholy or just slightly off. And for me, it's unusual because this is the week the kids go back to school. It's kind of exciting. You know, you get back to your real life, your real schedule, and there's a fun feeling about it. I mean, even though the New Year's in January, September always feels like the New Year since it's the beginning of something new for your kids. And so on. But this year, there's been this tug on the other side, this tug toward darkness. And I think in particular, if you're in news or you stay abreast of the news, it has been a very dark cycle. You know, not only have we been talking about this mother who brutally murdered her own three children and then this nutcase jury that's been defending her as if she did nothing wrong. But then on the heels of that, we go right into the Charlie one-year mark. And every year. Every year as we approach the 9-11 anniversary, what happens on X, and it's important that it happens, is the recirculation of usually it's the 9-1-1 calls being made from the Twin Towers, from the people who do not know that those buildings are about to go down. The 9-1-1 calls are the emergency response calls from the firefighters down to the firefighters who are down below about what help they need on the 78th floor, having no idea they're all about to die. The calls that the people. On the airplanes made to their loved ones, saying their goodbyes because they knew they were going to die. It's just a lot of death and destruction. Yeah. And one of the things you see online is some of the younger folks, like, not understanding that Gen Xers actually are taking a moment to feel something this week because we're used to chastising them for feeling everything. Empathy for things that have nothing to do with them, like it's happening to them. This over-the-top, oh, woe is me because something happened. It's like, you know, try to understand, we more mature people are not saying there's never a cause to stop and take note and take stock of what it means to be here and what it means to suffer loss. We just don't believe in nonstop disasterism and feeling sorry for yourself and finding every disorder known to man and latching onto it for attention. That doesn't mean when something actually heavy happens or three such somethings right in front of you. We don't as mature human beings on this earth, pause, look at each other, understand that for whatever reason, God put us on this earth at the same time as one another and try to connect, try to do something that means something like say, you matter to me. I care about you. I want us to relate in a way that's loving and kind and good for a moment, a day, an hour, whatever, as opposed to just miring ourselves in the dark. And it's also, I think, it's the same theme really, but it's about understanding and having a perspective on life. You know, a lot of the younger people today, they're riddled ever since I think the advent of smartphones, I think that's pretty clear. But they're riddled with anxiety about what I call run of the mill life stuff, right? Stuff you just, everybody has to deal with. You lose loved ones, people die. You spit up from girlfriends or boyfriends. You lose a job, you know, your car break, whatever it is. But these are, in the general pantheon of life, this is what happens to absolutely everybody. And you just have to learn how to deal with it. These three things which you highlighted are absolutely not what happens to everybody. They are exceptional things that happened, all very different, but all very dark. And I want to go through them, actually, because I thought you lit the touchstone with that post, which really moved me. The Lindsay Clancy story, I think it's very, it's a complex story. I don't think it's a simple thing. My own personal view, and I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, just my assessment of this story, is that she obviously brutally killed her children. That is indisputable. The only question is whether she knew what she was doing when she did it, whether she's a cold-blooded murderer. I've interviewed a lot of murderers. I've done literally series of interviewing serial killers and psychopaths and killers. So I've interviewed a lot of people that deliberately set out to kill people. I sort of took a view with her that it looked to me like she had, in some way, just lost her mind, then committed an atrocious, heinous act, but that the flaw in the whole thing was they charged her with the wrong thing. If they'd actually done what we would, in England, call something like manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility, she could still end up spending the last part of her life behind, you know, in an institution somewhere. She wouldn't. She wouldn't be free to commit more crimes, but we wouldn't be convicting a woman who was incredibly disturbed with a premeditated, cold-blooded murder. So that's where I come from on it. I think you don't share that view. Correct. I understand that, and a lot of people feel as you do, so I don't diminish your POV, but I don't agree with it. I think you need to understand, first and foremost, that medical insanity, is not the same as legal insanity. The bar for legal insanity in the United States is extremely high. It is Jeffrey Dahmer, who cannibalized people, who was zombifying live human beings to try to make them his forever friends, with shots to the brain, was not allowed the not-guilty-by-reason-of-insanity defense. They did not buy it. He was found guilty of murder. Jeffrey Dahmer was not considered insane, legally. But, of course— Of course he was insane as a medical proposition, or as we understand colloquially, that term. And so I think if you start there, you understand why people like me do not accept this defense for Lindsay Clancy. She obviously had serious medical issues, mental issues. She obviously wasn't herself, but we don't generally accept that as an excuse for murder. Nick Reiner is about to pull the same card out for murdering Rob Reiner and his wife, Nick's parents. It's not going to work for him either. a woman in Times Square. just took out a knife, stabbed a 32-year-old new mother who had just gone back to work at Bank of America after nursing her newborn baby for a few months at home. That poor 32-year-old mom is dead as a result of this other woman who took out a knife and stabbed her out of the blue in the middle of Times Square, where your viewers have probably gone and watched a show if they came to Broadway. And why'd she do it? Oh, her brother says she suffered psychosis related to postpartum that she had had 20 years earlier. No, I don't accept any of that. Obviously, the woman was a nutcase. Most people who commit random violence on strangers are. That doesn't mean they're legally insane. Legally, we look to whether they knew the difference between right and wrong. And the evidence of that that we typically look to is, for example, ordered thinking. And Lindsay Clancy absolutely had ordered thinking on the day she murdered her children. She sent the husband out to a restaurant that was farther away than the normal one. She Googled the route to make sure to see how long it would take. When he called her at the point in time in which we believe she was in between. She took the call for 14 seconds, redirected him, said it's fine if you get the generic medication. This is not a woman in the middle of a psychotic break. And if you speak to most medical professionals who have seen those, they'll back me up on that. She was lying to keep him out of the home so she could commit the behaviors. She's not frothing at the mouth. She's methodical. She's chased Dawson, the middle son, who is three, into another room, we believe, to get the cord around his neck. Each one would have taken at least two to three minutes. Each child suffered mightily at the hands of the woman who was supposed to love them the most. They saw her coming for them. They ran after having watched their siblings get murdered. It was the most atrocious crime one could commit on this earth. And so those circumstances together tell me this person belongs to be treated in the criminal system, not the medical one. And just one final point, peers. There was a woman in America decades ago named Constance Fisher in Maine who drowned all three of her children. She was placed in a mental facility. She was turned out of that mental facility not long thereafter because they said, you know what, she's gotten it together. This is a mother. She loved her kids. She didn't really, she's not like some crazy murderer. She went back to the husband, Carl, with whom she'd been prior. They had three more kids and she drowned them too. So we are playing with deadly serious stakes here. This woman does need to be locked up and not put into a Massachusetts mental facility with a bunch of bleeding hearts that have a high likelihood of turning her through the revolving door. 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Get your free quote at ethos.com slash peers. Well, I know lots of people that share your view, too. And I think it'll be interesting if there is a retrial, what happens in the second trial. Because obviously, everyone in America has been talking about this story. And everyone has strong views about it. Moving to Charlie Kirk, seems incredible that we're a year on from that. You know, I can remember I just left my studio and was halfway home when they called me and said, you know, have you seen this news? Charlie Kirk has been on the news. And I said, yeah, I've been on the news. And they said, yeah, I've been on the show. And then there was this kind of agonizing period where no one was quite sure if he'd survived it or not survived it. And of course, he hadn't. And he was, you know, undoubtedly cold-bloodedly murdered. To me, it seems all the evidence is pointing very, very straightforwardly to the fact that Tyler Robinson did this. There are two aspects to it I'm interested in what your view is. One is, are there, I mean, A, do you concur with me? And B, are there, is there another area of this story that you still feel we don't have enough information about? And if so, what is it? And secondly, after that, I'll come to Eric Kirk as a separate thing. But on that first point, do you believe he did it, Tyler Robinson? And is there something else that you would like more meat on the bone when it comes to the information flow? I absolutely believe Tyler Robinson committed this crime. I have no doubt about it. The evidence against him is overwhelming. And let's not forget, his own parents encouraged him to turn himself in. I mean, they too believed that their son had committed this murder. I still have a lot of questions about what, if any, connections there are to trans-tifa, for lack of a better word, because there were so many warning tweets by people who are so-called trans. By the way, I've decided not to use that word anymore. They're gender confused. There's no such thing as transing yourself. You can't transition genders. So gender confused individuals who are online, who were warning that something big was going to happen on September 10th at Utah Valley University. And then when Charlie was murdered, got on the internet again and said, told you so. I mean, it was just too much of it. And these were people who seem to have, at least one of them had a connection to Lance Twiggs, who is the trans, so-called furry lover of Tyler Robinson. And so I don't think those have ever adequately been answered. I'd like to see more. And we deserve to know more. We deserve to know more. Charlie was a public figure. He didn't belong. Just to the private individuals who loved him, he belonged to all of us. And in the same way, we would deserve to know more about a president who had been assassinated. We deserve to know more about Charlie and what happened with those tweets. I think it's pretty despicable that we haven't been told. No, I agree. On Erica Kirk, I don't want to get into Candace Owens with you about all this situation there. But on a wider point, I have looked at the way Erica Kirk has been targeted. I've looked at the way she's been targeted. I've looked at the way she's been targeted by all sorts of people in, I think, a pretty repellent manner for a woman who's a grieving widow, still a grieving widow, obviously, very intensely grieving. And she wrote this guest essay in the New York Times this week in which she, you know, many, many powerful lines. But she said, eventually, I worked up the courage to go to our bathroom. I stared at his side of the sink. His toothbrush was still lying on its side, his towel still hanging on the hook. I will never touch that towel. And then she described standing in the bathroom, looking at his pillow, wondering how long his scent would remain in the sheets. I stood there in silence, replaying all the completely ordinary mornings that we woke up there together. And the reason I found it so powerful was it reminded us that there is a human being here, a wife and a mother who lost her husband, who she was obviously very in love with, the loving father of her kids. And I think people have just treated her like some weird commodity for the last year. Well, they can say whatever they want about her. They can make any allegations about her. They can treat her as inhumanely as they like. And I'm just at a loss as to understand why. Why we have collectively, it seems, lost our humanity about this woman. I mean, I come to this with a bias because I love Erica. And I consider her a dear friend. And I hate to see her suffer. It's been very painful to watch her suffer this year. The overwhelming suffering has been caused by Charlie's murder. And not by the internet nonsense. But that's been an added burden on her. There's no question. And I, look, I don't like it. I wish it weren't happening. I wish people would move on and just see the evidence that's there. But I think part of the reason this is happening is because Erica stayed in the public eye as the CEO of Turning Point. And therefore, in some ways, criticism of her is fair game. You know, the stuff around, did she kill Charlie? That's all nonsense. To me, that's so crazy. I don't even spend any time on it. But like the criticisms of Erica's behavior or how she is at this event or how she is at that event, that's going to happen if you are at the head of a political organization. And people who think that she's not grieving correctly, look, all I can say, they're entitled to their opinions. I don't share their opinions, but I can't censor their opinions either. The way Erica could avoid that is by not being the CEO of Turning Point. And she and I have had many conversations about this together. I think she feels very strongly that she was the only one who could get the organization through at least the first year. And she's done that. Miraculously and heroically, she's done that. And I don't know, I personally would like to see her take some personal time just so she can remove herself from the nonstop battering ram that is heading up a political organization in the United States of America. And allow herself in year two to just work on healing, helping her kids heal and herself heal. I don't know what she's going to do, but that's my prayer for her. Well said. On 9-11, the third part of your post, it's an interesting time, isn't it, in New York, where you have the first Muslim mayor, Mamdani, there now, right at the moment, New York will commemorate the 25th anniversary. Rudy, Giuliani and many others, said he should skip this Friday's memorial service, drawing a parallel, it seems, between Mamdani's Muslim faith and the 9-11 hijackers, who obviously acted on the orders of the extremist Osama bin Laden. He responded, Mamdani, by releasing 170,000 pages of documents exposing Giuliani's administration for what he said were just blatant lies to the public about toxic air and so on. So there's a big furore brewing there. What do you feel about this? Because, you know, Mamdani, yeah, he's a Muslim. There are two billion Muslims in the world. He's New York's first Muslim mayor. I may not agree with all his politics, I don't. But I don't personally have an issue with New York having an elected official who happens to be Muslim around the anniversary of 9-11, and I don't think he should be barred from going to the memorial service. I don't think he should be barred from going to the memorial service. I don't think he should be barred from going to the memorial service, based on anything I've seen him say. What do you feel? I don't think he should be barred because he's Muslim. I think he should be barred because when he was campaigning, he was palling around with imams who had defended the 9-11 terrorists. That's a no. Hard no. And honestly, Piers, it's one of the reasons why, when that race got down to just Mamdani and Andrew Cuomo, who I can't stand, I said, you know, I'm not going to vote. I said, I guess we have to vote for the sex pest who killed thousands of New York elderly. Because on the other side, you got a guy who's palling around with people who defended the 9-11 terrorists. Hard no, not to mention his communism. I can't forgive that. I don't understand that. I don't understand a person who would do that. I think it's disgusting. So I agree. He should be banned from the 9-11 memorial services. He should have nothing to do with it. He can issue a paper statement from Gracie Mansion. That's it. No one wants to see him down there. He's made his position on this clear. And we, there's a lot of grieving still going on around 9-11. You know, while Gen Z and Gen Alpha may have no memory of it, people who were adults when it happened certainly do. And many of us lost people we know when those towers went down and planes went down. And don't, we don't want somebody who would ever pose, was someone empathetic toward the hijackers having anything to do with it. And just like, be quiet. Fade into the background. Let the names be read. Let the rest of us who genuinely care pay homage to the victims. Let the news people who understand what they're talking about comment on what the day meant, what the legacy of it meant, what went right and what went wrong after the fact. The blood and treasure that was spent on the fields of Afghanistan and Iraq, for one thing, and whether that was worth it or should. gone on anywhere near as long as it did, and whether we've learned any lessons at all as we're over in Iran for some apparent reason to this day. But this guy has no role in it. He's, he's, the limited role he's played has deeply offended many of the victims and casual third party observers. And he should take a seat out of respect for those who have genuine grief on this day. You know, the problem is if he did skip it, I can just imagine the headlines, which would be New York's Muslim mayor. Snubs 9-11 Memorial Day. I mean, in a way, he's going to find a way around it. I agree. He didn't know. He didn't know. He could find a way around it. Yeah. But that's what the narrative would be. And I'm sure he's calculated that as well. But it's going to be very interesting what he does do. I'm sure he will attend. Interesting the reception he gets. Megan, I could always talk to you for about five times as long as you permit me with your wonderful time. Thank you very much indeed for coming back on Uncensored. It's great to see you. Well, joining me now is a very close friend of Charlie Kerr, the Turning Point spokesman, Andrew Culver. Andrew, thank you for coming on Uncensored, your first time on the show. Yeah. Thank you for having me, Piers. It's an honor to be here. You were, I think, listening to some of that interview with Megyn Kelly. Just on, obviously, we're a year on from Charlie's assassination. I can remember it very vividly, but not, I imagine, anywhere near as vividly as you would remember it. Where were you when Charlie was assassinated? Where were you when you heard what had happened? Yeah, I was in Santa Barbara, actually. So that's where I lived. Charlie had me guest host the show that morning so he could focus on his tour stop at UVU. And so we had a, we actually had Nick Shirley on, believe it or not. It was interesting, right there in the first hour. And then we had a prerecord with another guest in hour two that Charlie had already, you know, banked. And then, so I was, I was sitting at my, at my desk, at my, my home office. And I was actually texting with Charlie and our co-host now on the, on the show with Blake Neff about talking points about 25, 30 minutes before, before it happened, actually. The impact on you, on all of Charlie's friends, his family, all his supporters was obviously enormous. A year later, as I said to Megyn Kelly, you know, one of the things I found most repellent about the year has been the way that Erica Kirk has been treated. And it's interesting to hear Megyn, who obviously has enormous love and admiration for Erica, but suggesting that maybe she should take some time out from Turning Point. She should go and just have some time on, with her family and just away from it all. But by attaching herself to a political organization in the way that she's done, albeit very courageously, in this year, and make yourself a target. What do you think of that? Well, I appreciate Megyn's sympathies and her compassion and, you know, love for Erica. I would just say that, you know, if you were around Turning Point, you know, it wasn't something we talked about all the time, certainly, because we thought Charlie was going to be with us, you know, for another 50 years. But we all knew that that was going to happen. We all knew that that was going to happen. On at least two occasions, I was at the now infamous, you know, Aspen event where he was asked about it in front of donors. And he said that Erica would do a good job and, you know, she should take over. And I was, I'm also aware that that was how he informed the board that he wanted things to go should something happen to him. So he told his financial planners, I mean, everybody sort of knew that Erica was the person that was going to take over. And my viewpoint on it is a little bit unique, just because I see it internally appears that my opinion is she was the only person that could have done what she did in that moment. If you know anything about the inner workings of Turning Point, she knew everybody. Everybody loved Erica. Everybody respected Erica. And we would rally around Erica. There's a real chance that Turning Point unravels in those immediate weeks following Charlie's assassination if she doesn't step in the way she did. And yeah, she wants to honor Charlie's legacy. She wants to carry it forward. And I think that for them, it's part of their family legacy and for her kids. And Pierre is I would just tell your audience, you know, I think there's been, you know, I think cheap attacks against her that she's not taking care of her family or something like that. When I when she comes into the office here, we've got kids toys all over the place. Her kids are with her when she comes in. You know, we've got a great family environment now these days. And actually, some of our other staff have newborns and kids as well. So they're running around. So we do our best to kind of balance everything. But this is, I think, a calling. I would just tell people, you know, a wife of a husband, a high profile husband has one calling, a widow has another, and she's going to do what she thinks is best. And we have her back 100% on that. And that's, you know, if I'm in your shoes, and I'm hearing that, where almost she's almost saying you were in on this, on the assassination of your boss, your friend, and so on. I mean, I would be absolutely incensed. How do you feel about stuff like that? You know, I think your first reaction is probably right. Your assumption, you're incensed, you kind of can't believe it. But as time's gone by, I will tell you that, you know, I think people talk about peak woke, they talk about other sort of moments that reach a fever pitch, and then they kind of subside. And I would just tell you that I feel much better about the state of the country, state of the movement and the online discourse when it comes to children. you know, I think people talk about peak woke, they talk about other sort of moments that reach a fever pitch, and then they kind of subside. And I would just tell you that I feel much better about the state of the movement and the online discourse when it comes to children. And so the lines are clearly drawn. And I think that makes it easier. I think what made it kind of reach that fever pitch in the beginning was people assumed that Candace was with us or that she agreed with us on, you know, politics or ideas and ideologies or about who Charlie even was. And I think people have clearly seen just how insane some of these ideas are and some of the new theories and they constantly are getting debunked. And there's a whole army of people online. No, we don't pay them. We don't we don't even coordinate with them. They do this on their own because they feel like reality is at stake. Good and evil is at stake. And so they're constantly going back and forth. And, you know, we have a mission to do and we're going to focus on the mission. And that's what Charlie did. And I'm borrowing straight from Charlie here, Piers. You know, he didn't get in. And I think that's the example that we plan on following. Do you think Candace believes the stuff she says or do you think she just thinks of ever more outrageous conspiracy theories that will get huge amounts of clicks and a ton of money? You know, I don't want to speculate on what she believes, Piers. I don't know anymore. The person that I see online is, you know, not exactly like the person I used to know. So I don't even know where she's coming from anymore. What do you hope Charlie Kirk's legacy will be? I mean, it always seemed to me incredibly ironic. I interviewed him several times, but and I always enjoyed talking to him. But above all else, regardless of his own political beliefs, and he had very solid beliefs, which he believed, I have no doubt that he believed his beliefs. But I also have no doubt that there was this horrible irony that here's a guy. He goes into almost the opposition camps again and again and again. He goes to places where most people wouldn't agree with him. And he says, prove me wrong. Literally the mantra which he used to say. And people would line up and they'd ask him questions and they'd have open democratic debate, which ought to be at the bedrock of any democratic society. And yet it was Charlie who did that, who got targeted and assassinated by somebody who despised him. And his views and there's a horrible irony there, isn't there? What do you hope his ultimate legacy will be from all this? Well, you're the point about the irony, it's really important. I mean, a lot of people understood in the immediate aftermath that he was the best of us. He was, you know, some people described him as a moderate. You know, he was doing politics in the way that we should be doing politics as Americans. As. As Brits. That you actually discuss your ideas and you have this collision of ideas in the public square. It's an ultimate exercise of free speech. And Charlie believed that he could correct error and thinking and Gen Z, what they thought about politics, what they thought about President Trump and what they thought about America. And he was wildly successful. And ultimately, that's why he was targeted, because he was impacting a whole generation. He was impacting the whole country. Charlie was so excited to go. He was so excited to go back on tour in the fall of 2025 because he could see the movement and some of these fracture lines, you know, emerging. And he wanted to address that and basically be able to message to Gen Z. And yeah, the irony is that Charlie was such a wonderful person. And, you know, you see those videos online, Piers, where, you know, it's like Charlie Kirk destroys Lib or whatever, Campus Radical. 90%. I would say 95% of his interactions online. Campus were so calm, were so kind and decent. And he was so patient with people. And I don't know that those ones go so viral, but that was actually what was happening with Charlie. He was so willing to meet people where they were at. Now, if you were a troll or if you came in bad faith, he would he was willing to match your energy if he felt like that. But so often the crowd would say, you know, dunk on this person, dunk on this person because they couldn't believe something. You know, one of the questioners was saying and he would always say, calm down, calm down, be respectful, respect this person. And, you know, so it's a tragedy and it leaves an incredible void for our movement because on so many levels, he wasn't just the best organizer. He wasn't just keeping people together behind the scenes. He wasn't just an amazing communicator, but he was the moral compass for the conservative movement. And that's what we have to remember is that Charlie's profound faith in Jesus Christ, his profound courage came from a place of moral decency. And it was obviously inspired by his faith. And Erica had a great part to play in that. Becoming a father had a great part to play in that. But I hope that that's what we remember this week is that Charlie was fundamentally a decent man that did not deserve, obviously, what happened to him. And as a matter of fact, he deserved all the accolades and more in life. But but it is it is an irony and it is a tragedy. And I don't I don't know what else what else to say about it than that. Yeah, I think that sums it up. Andrew Colbert, thank you very much for coming on. Sensitive. Joining me to debate this is host of The Crucible, Andrew Wilson, of course, recently debated Candace Owens. John Mappin, a businessman, public affairs commentator, a former Turning Point insider. Robert Neal, the former U.S. Navy SEAL, who very appropriately this week, the man who killed Osama bin Laden. And Brandon Tatum, a.k.a. the officer of Tatum. Well, welcome to all of you. A stellar panel to debate this. Let me start with you, John Mappin. You were right in the Charlie Kirk camp, a friend of both Charlie, of Candace Owens. And of others around the Turning Point scene. You helped set up the U.K. wing, introduced Candace to her husband, George Farmer. And you're still friends with Candace. My question for you, which would be a question for Candace, but I haven't had her on the show for a while, is I've looked at all the evidence about Tyler Robinson. And it's pretty clear what happened here. Tyler Robinson murdered Charlie Kirk. He didn't like him. And all the conspiracy theory noise. Most of it driven by Candace, to me, is very cynical. It's just to create a lot of noise, a lot of clicks, and make a ton of money. What's your response to that? Well, I think if somebody watches Candace's show in sequence, there are plenty of anomalies that don't make any sense at all. And all I can go on is. My personal experience of what I witnessed personally as a friend of Charlie's and as somebody who helped, as you say, not just launch Turning Point in the U.K., but also introduced Charlie to some of his biggest donors and generated many tens of millions of dollars of donation to Turning Point. My wife and I are also friends with Erica Kirk. And I've paid very, very close attention to this. And I suppose the initial worry that I had was when one of Charlie's closest friends and executives at Turning Point, when I was arriving at the memorial, said to me, well, actually sent me a text to say, as soon as you arrive, we need to meet to have a conversation, no phones. And that immediately put me on Twitter. I was turning up to celebrate Charlie's. Charlie's life at a memorial. I certainly believed the initial story. I had no reason to question it. Obviously, I was distraught. I was actually supposed to have been with Charlie that week in Arizona, but I had I postponed my trip. Then I saw the most vitriolic attacks against Candace Owens really for stating things. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm going to be in trouble. I'm going to be in trouble. and Erika Kirk, and at that time we were guests, actually, of Imteritsu, which is the principal Zionist organisation in Israel, and we were their guests. And at that time, in March 2019, Charlie was completely all in and would have supported anything that Israel did. Over time, his position was changing, and when I was in London, he told me about a letter that he'd written to Netanyahu, and he told me, frankly, that he considered Bibi Netanyahu to be a psychopath. And that is a long, long way away from the narrative that was being pushed shortly after Charlie's death. Now, Candice started to point this out, and I saw her coming under tremendous attack, so I wrote an open letter to Candice, basically saying, actually, what you're doing is exactly what Charlie would be doing if the roles were reversed. After I wrote that letter, I had a call from one of the most senior executives at Turning Point, telling me that he thought my letter was fantastic, that it was extremely well written, that he supported it entirely, he thought it was great, and he asked me to give Candice a message to double down on his investigation, and to give her a very specific message. And I said, "Well, I'm not going to tell you who these people are." And she said, "Well, you're not going to tell us who these people are." And I said, "Well, you're not going to tell us who these people are." And I said, "Well, you're not going to tell us who these people are." And he said, "Well, you're not going to tell us who these people are." And I said, "Well, you're not going to tell us who these people are." And I said, "Well, you're not going to tell us who these people are." And he said, "Well, you're not going to tell us who these people are." And he said, "Well, you're not going to tell us who these people are." And I said, "Well, you're not going to tell us who these people are." And I said, "Well, you're not going to tell us who these people are." And he said, "Well, you're not going to tell us who these people are." And he said, "Well, you're not going to tell us who these people are." And I said, "Well, you're not going to tell us who these people are." FanDuel is now available everywhere in the US. FanDuel is now available everywhere in the US. slow down all the videos of the people he shot to see if their clothes moved well why are you able to assert your business because i'm gonna i'm gonna tell you how projectiles were he's not even gonna just i guarantee you this guy's not even gonna disagree with what i'm about to say if it is the case that you have energy and you have mass and the mass is moving in the air the air has to go somewhere it doesn't have a choice i think you're like you're totally psing right now man well rob i mean you're the one to ask um do you agree with andrew well i mean the thing with ballistics is any time any time you fire a shot is fired anything can happen and that's just how it goes and yes there's a shockwave that follows it uh the projectile and generally it goes into the body and it forms a temporary cavity that's actually what kills you not the projectile itself uh can it happen a different way yeah i mean it can happen a lot of different ways but the reason that i'm brought into this is because the first time i saw it it was i didn't know it was a i like it no one liked it it was sent to me my initial reaction as someone who has killed people within feet was i've been involved in bad shootings too my initial reaction was that didn't look right how are they going to explain this something's off i'm not saying i know who did it or what happened i'm saying the way that looked right there is not someone that got shot and that looked like an exit wound on his left the left part of his neck it just doesn't look like um you know i didn't know what was fired at him i don't know what hit him i don't know what killed him i don't know anything about it i don't know what hit him i don't know what killed him any of that stuff knowing later it's a 30 odd six i would say 99 out of 100 times it's going to blow someone's head off one time it might not and again your deal now you start dealing with the court where i wasn't there at the time i'm not uh particularly fond the case very closely i wasn't in the courtroom i wasn't as close to charlie clerk as as anyone on this panel i'm saying as a seal team six sniper who's been a sniper since 1998 and killed a lot of people up close when i saw it that's bad how are they going to explain it and then you i mean you get stuff because you conspiracies fortunately for all of us we've all experienced immediate response from anything you say or do and then when uh word flies israel's involved they say they didn't do it now you're saying well israel said they didn't do it then you they're in the conversation a lot and we know this too a lot of people get involved for clicks and that's how they make their money and i'm not saying anyone here is doing it it happens we've all seen it it does it i get involved my name is brought up because of my past the one thing i want to say to people is i was not there and i'm just saying what i think well what's interesting i'm actually enjoying everybody else i want to get their side you're being very honest about this and you're eminently qualified to talk about sniping obviously the authorities of ballistic data place the distance of the fatal shot at roughly 140 to 200 yards about 122 meters they have established he uses grandfather scoped bolt action uh 0.3006 caliber rifle yeah uh no evidence was presented that robinson was a highly skilled or trained marksman and i guess the conspiracy theories if that's what they are that's caveated because he's not being convicted yet but let's just talk this through the fact that he took one shot and was immediately successful in his mission to assassinate charlie kirk if that's what he did as people believe you know in your experience from that distance with that kind of weapon how likely is it that somebody with no specialist marksman training could perform that that's not a far shot i mean even when you get into the taking the gun apart or taking the scope off if you do take it apart and reassemble it and it looks the same uh your cold war shot you might not have the dope that you had at say 100 yards and for example if you're on at 100 yards but now you're not because you put it together you aim for the head you might hit the neck it could happen a minute of angle at 100 yards is one inch uh and you know and that's that's how you start to measure it so it's a a missed shot at 100 yards could be seven inches off right so again anything could have happened if i was not there filming it or looking and talking to people i'm just saying from my experience what i have seen i saw this on television which again is another false flight because everything we see on television you got to take 50 out of way andrew what's your response to that the yeah i mean he's right the other issue that you have is that i don't even think that that robinson took the scope off he brought a screwdriver with him usually the type of scope that you would see on that would have allen wrench um you would need an allen wrench to take it off what he likely did was he took the scope off and he took the scope off and he took the scope off and he took the scope off and he just removed the stock the scope was still fixed on the rifle and he just put the rifle back i'm just saying because i don't know the full story of how much he took apart i'm just saying that even if he took it apart well hang on to be fair yeah to be fair nobody does like we don't know if that's the case i'm it this is speculation but it's not a difficult shot even open sight at 140 yards with a 30-odd six not a problem at all um right if you have a scope even less actually he got lucky yeah hang on real quick just let me follow up with this i'll just i just want to follow up real quick the u.s army has done tons and tons of research into this particular caliber because we've been using it since world war one we used it in world war one we used it in world war two we used it in korea we used it in vietnam and you still have some 30-odd six rifles which are in service today i believe and it is one of the most research rounds around and it is in fact the case that we have tons and tons of examples of a 30-odd six full metal jacket which is not even a soft point round entering into a body and it's not even a soft point and not penetrating all the way it happens with a full metal jacket it happens with a soft point it also happens uh this is not unheard of it's just rare okay in the case of martin luther king he was shot with a 30-odd six and it didn't well that's a bad example because it that's a bad example because it entered into the jaw penetrated and then hit again that's why that you shouldn't use that example but there are two living soldiers right this second who have had that happened to them where they were hit with the equivalent of a 30-odd six brandon let me ask you let me explain i don't think it's a bad example because normally when you look at a 30-odd six being shot at somebody it'll blow right through you um and so the fact that it didn't over penetrate like one would expect even with martin luther king and then also with charlie kirk it's not that odd you know it's rare but it's not impossible and when you look at the forensic evidence that they extracted the round from his body and the shrapnel and they did you know all all of the investigatory things that they needed to do to determine that he was shot with with a 30 class uh well he also had hemorrhaging six they what they're saying is that there was also a lot of hemorrhaging around the chest area so it's likely that when this cavitation was formed and the round broke up because they pulled it out in pieces that tons and tons of the actual soft point round moved down into the chest area which is common in a cavitation like this so especially if you have a round uh that's a soft point so like all of the things that they did to him all of this is not only plausible and possible but it's even likely the only thing that's uh that you would even be able to say is a rarity is that there was no full penetration in the neck but that does happen okay well we're going to get to the bottom of all this i suspect um i just want to talk um back to you john officer tatum uh posted on x this you can't truly be charlie kirk's friend if you're tearing down his wife the sudden wave of hatred directed at eric is backwards why didn't any of these cowards have a word of criticism for her while charlie was still alive if we're going to honor charlie we need to show some respect to the family that he left behind and i feel that strongly that the way erica kirk has been treated has been disgusting frankly um trampling on the grief of a young grieving widow well what do you feel about it i think it's much more nuanced peers um my wife and i are very close to erica we love her very much indeed and so did candace and so does candace i've just spent a week with candace and she uh absolutely uh had no intention whatsoever to um be unkind to erica in any way um there are uh what what what are you saying can you can you speak faster i i what are you saying you're saying now or before you say currently when charlie was killed when charlie was killed you're saying before um what we where we see today yes for for nearly i think it was nearly a month after uh charlie was killed it was it was prior to the time at which they met they had a private meeting and in that private meeting something happened between charlie uh between uh um erica and candace and uh she tells the story better than i can tell it but um this is much much more nuanced candace is extremely sincere i mean you know this officer tatum she's an extremely sincere person and this idea that she somehow is pushing a conspiracy rather than genuinely trying to get to the truth about what happened to our friend uh is a total lie she is completely sincere she is not doing it for clicks She's not doing it for money. She doesn't need money. Her husband is more than capable of taking care of her for the rest of her life. She claimed Erica Kirk is complicit in Charlie Kirk's murder, man. She's claimed it publicly many times that she's complicit, that TPUSA is complicit. When I asked her what that means, what does complicit mean, she says, well, it just means that you believe that Tyler Robinson, who she thinks has a 0% chance of actually having murdered Kirk, that she just believes that. You don't use the rhetoric of you're complicit, you're part of this. You don't use that rhetoric. Frederick, if it's the case that that's your friend and you just want good things for them. Can I just make one point? Yeah. That's your interpretation of what she said. I have never heard her say that. And that is not, you know, you do have a habit of altering things. But I do have to thank you for something, Andrew. I missed the part there. You did pay for a fantastic dinner that we had in Iceland. You're saying that Candace, I wanted to thank you. She doesn't need the money. Hang on, remember she doesn't need the money? Hold on. Wait a minute. Are you saying that Candace Owens doesn't have any vitriolic feelings towards Erica Kirk? Not at all. You're lying. I talked to Candace. I talked to Candace. I talked to Candace the other day. She cannot stand Erica Kirk. I'm fully aware of your conversation and I'm fully aware of the content. By the way, not only am I aware of your conversation. She does not like Erica Kirk since the day they met. Not only am I aware of your conversation with Candace. Why are you not? Since the day they met, she had no, let me talk. She had no issues with Erica Kirk, and this is what she told me, until they met, and she despises her. She talks about her every day on the show. You should be honest about it. You don't have to lie. I'm very aware of the conversation. Candace will get on this show right now and tell you she despises her. Officer Tatum, I'm very aware of your conversation with Candace the other day. She had it when you, we were in. We were in Iceland together. She told me the entire contents of the conversation you had, and I'm not going to do you a disservice of repeating it, because you know exactly what you discussed. Yeah, yeah, we could repeat it. What do you want to do? Are you trying to say it's some secret conversation? It was not a secret conversation. Me and her had a conversation about this case and other things. No, it wasn't a secret conversation. It was a private conversation. But I'm just telling you that I know what you discussed. Hang on, hang on, hang on. You're here acting as if Candace loves Erica. Hang on. John Mappin, just to be clear, it sounds like Officer Tatum's perfectly happy for you to reveal whatever it is you're suppressing. So why don't you just tell him, just say what you're talking about? Yeah. No, I'm not going to, I'm not going to get into a private conversation. Because there's nothing. You're making it sound. What I'm saying is. You're making it sound like a joke, but he's telling you to reveal it. Is that Candace Owens. What are you talking about? No. As to what? She does not. And as does my wife. Is that why she made the documentary, Wife of Charlie Kirk, where she tries to link her to being a sex trafficker, John? Can you explain why she tries to link Erica Kirk to being a sex trafficker if she thinks that Erica Kirk is just, you know, it's just Christian concern. Let me put this in perspective. You hung out with her in Iceland. I talked to her on the phone in Iceland. Now, I'm not saying anything that Candace. Owens is not saying on her own show. And I love Candace. She's a friend of mine. I disagree with her, though. And I appreciate Erica Kirk. I talked to her not too long ago. She don't like Erica Kirk. It is very clear to you and to me. But you lie. And I'm telling the truth. And Candace wouldn't be mad if I said it because she said on her show every day. She said she needs to be taken to a precinct and investigated for the murder of Charlie Kirk. That means I don't like you. If Erica Kirk killed Charlie, I wouldn't like her either. But the truth is Erica had nothing to do with it. And there's no evidence presented. And you don't have to lie. You don't have to be fake on the show. You can just tell the truth. And there's nothing. People are entitled to their own opinion. Candace don't have to like Erica Kirk. She don't have to like Erica. That's fine. That's her. That's her decision. But don't get on here and lie. Obstetrician, I'm not lying to you. And it may be a little bit too deep of a concept. For you to fathom. But, you know, friendship takes many things. And being a true friend to somebody. She told me flat out that after she talked to Erica Kirk that she couldn't stand her because she lied. She told me that Erica Kirk lied about too many things about Charlie Kirk and she cannot stand her. She thinks she's covering up Charlie Kirk's death. What are you saying? Can I ask you a question, Officer Tatum, that I've been wanting to ask you? Why is it when you know that Owens has done everything possible to destroy everything that Charlie Kirk left behind, including TPSA, his wife, and then by proxy of that? Fan Duel is now available everywhere in the U.S. Georgia, Houston, Cleveland, Minnesota, Buffalo, Lincoln, Chi-Town, Arizona. Make this your most rewarding season ever. With Fan Duel. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. At his children. Why the hell are you still friends with this chick? Can you explain that to me? Because I actually don't understand that. Like what you're talking about her doing. Hang on, hang on. And what you say publicly that she did is literally evil. It's the epitome of evil from your view. That's a good question, actually. Good question. Why the hell are you friends with her? I think that's a great question. Hold on. I think it's a great question. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. The thing is, is that me and Candace go back a long way. So our friendship means more than her disagreements and her feelings towards Charlie Kirk. Charlie, she's not coming after me. These aren't just disagreements, though. No, no. Let me finish. Let me finish. You asked the question. You claim that this is an evil worldview. She's doing evil things. Let me finish. Let me finish what I'm saying. Go ahead. Me and her go back from 2017. I knew her before I knew Charlie Kirk. I knew her before I knew Erica Kirk. Candace and I have been best friends for a few years. For a very long time. She has been always good to me. So you're saying she's an insincere person. Let me explain. Are you saying that she's an insincere person? It's only until recently. But are you saying she's an insincere person? Hold the phone. Hold the phone and I will finish and then I'll let you talk. We have been friends for a very long time. It has been recent that she has come out and done this and I disagree with her. Two people can still know each other, be friends with each other, and disagree. Now, if she was coming at me, that'd be an insincerity. Are you saying that she's insincere? I mean, it just seems like bet hedging. Real quick, let me just get in. This seems like you're just hedging your bets. Like, you speak out of both sides of your mouth. I don't have to hedge a bet. Nobody's talking about me. Hang on, hang on, man. Hang on, man. This ain't got nothing to do with it. This does not have anything to do with me. How is it, on the one hand, you're like, this woman is perpetuating horrible evil on a family of a murdered man who is a widow, doing these horrible things to him. But she's my friend. You know, she's my friend, though. Because friendship don't mean you have to agree with people. Friendship don't mean you have to agree with people. That transcends disagreement. If I had a family member, if I had a family member that I disagree with, somebody that I think is doing horrible things or saying horrible things, they're still my family. I just disagree with them. Candace can change. She's not your family, dude. Things that she's saying may change. Yeah, but I don't understand this. The question is— While she's doing these supposedly horrific things to people you claim to love, you're just like, yeah, we're still friends. She's one of my best friends. I'm speaking out about it. You can just disagree. Your mind is not complex enough. And maybe you don't have real relationships. Maybe you don't have real friends and relationships in your life. Maybe I'm the only one who does. I can be your friend and disagree with you. This transcends disagreement from your view. What is the difference between me saying I'm her friend and not her friend today or tomorrow? Does that change what she say every day on the television? Does that change anything? It would. It would. It would. It would show us at least who you are. It would show us who you are. It don't show anything. I can say I'm not a friend. That don't change anything. It don't change the reality of what she's saying or not saying. Let me ask Officer Tatum. What I'm saying— In this phone call— She's super sincere, and you can trust her. And you're like, well, no, you can't, but she's my close friend. I didn't say that. This is a— You guys have debated this enough. So John Mappin won't reveal the contents of the call that you have. You had recently with Candace Owens. In the contents of that conversation you had, is her position still, as you've suggested, that she believes Erica Kirk has something to do with Charlie's death? She believes that Erica Kirk is covering it up or no more than she's presenting to the world. That's what I got from the conversation. And I'm going to be honest with you. I think she really believed what she's saying. Okay. And John Mappin— And John Mappin, just to be clear, is that what you were reluctant to put in the public domain? But now Officer Tatum has said it. No, there's other material that I wouldn't put in the public domain. But the truth of the matter is that Candace is 1,000% sincere. And what she is doing— Yeah, but she's still wrong. She's doing out of the deepest possible love. She is doing this out of the deepest possible love. Christian love for Charlie Kirk, for his wife, and for America. The consequences to the soul of America— I think she's wrong, and I think she's doing more harm than good in this situation. Well, that's your opinion. That's the facts of the matter. That's your opinion. All I'm saying is she's sincere. Did Candace tell you she's still my friend? Is Candace still my friend? Does she still respect me enough to be my friend? We actually didn't discuss that. Okay. Obviously, she is because we talked on the phone. But two people can be— That's the one thing I want people to understand. Two people can be— Some people can be friends, We go back way back like two flats. But I just disagree with her and she disagreed with me on this topic. There's been other things that I agree with Candace on. There's been other things that me and Candace have been through. We started a nonprofit together. We've done a lot of things together as two individuals who know each other. Our families are connected. I know her father. I visited him when he was in the hospital. We celebrate him on Father's Day. There's more to it than a disagreement on a certain topic. I know that. I know that. Well, that's why. That's why we still consider friends, but we disagree. All I'm saying is, Officer Tatum, all I'm saying is I acknowledge that you're sincere about your opinion. She is completely sincere in what she is doing, and she's doing it at the deepest level of patriotism for America. You know, the price that America will pay for incorrect behavior. And that's fair. Let me dive in real quick. No, no, let me finish. Let me finish. The Communist Party in the USA is super sincere, too. Let me finish. So what does that mean? That doesn't mean anything. Your sincerity doesn't mean anything. Oh, I truly believe the communists truly believe in communism. So what? I'm not interested in whether or not she's sincere. I'm interested in the amount of damage that she's doing to the right and the horrible things that she's conducting on people, which is life-ruination. I thought the thesis was that she was doing it for clicks and money, Andrew. I thought the thesis was that she was doing it for clicks and money. The thesis is both. You can be sincere and want clicks and money, can't you? Well, the thing I would say is for more, hang on, hang on, hang on, let me just say something. Andrew, Andrew, hold on, hold on, Andrew, but you did the most ridiculous thing. Andrew, you did, and I like you, Andrew, but you did the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of in my life. I don't like you. How in the world did you pay her $300,000 to do a debate? No, no, no, I want to say thank you to Andrew. Hang on, hang on. Andrew, Andrew, Andrew, Andrew paid. Hang on, hang on, I'll answer the question. Andrew, you paid for the most fantastic dinner in Iceland. Yeah, I know, I heard you the first time. It was a great joke, bro. We went out for the most slap-up dinner. I know. I know, it was great, I know, fantastic. You really did a great job. I'm glad that you had a wonderful meal for once that wasn't on the Lolita Express. Now, that aside, I would like to just talk to Mr. Tatum. So what? I get paid a small fortune to do debates all the time, all over the country, tons and tons of cash. Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. I don't have an issue with somebody requesting an appearance fee for a debate, and somebody who has one of the top podcasts in the world, that was never a question for me. I don't care about that. It's not relevant to me. What's relevant to me is actually getting at the facts, getting at the truth, and exposing that for the world to see. That's what was relevant to me, and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. Well, here's the thing. You say that Candace Owens is doing such evil and harm, but you gave her $300,000 to do more of it. Well, Andrew, let me ask, let me just. You're trying to criticize me of being her friend, but I vehemently disagree. Guys, if I can get a word in Edgeways on my own show, I'd appreciate it. You made her richer. Guys, guys, guys. Small price to pay. Let me ask a question on my own show. Small price to pay to reveal the truth. Let me ask a question. Let me let Piz speak. Guys, let me ask a question on my own show, if I can. Andrew, a couple of things. One is that there's a rumor that you were paid by Turning Point to do that interview, and that's how you recouped some of your money. Is that true? No. Okay. Secondly, you know, there's been lots of polls and stuff that came out of it. Some said you won. Some said she won. Whatever, whatever, whatever. I saw. You're both scoring points with each other. You became a subject of some memes like this one called the debate tricks. Let's take a look at this. This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill and you can just keep saying, so what? You take the red pill. You learn everything about the Tyler Robinson case. So what? So what? So what? So what? Positive evidence? So what? So what? When? Appeal to emotion? So what? Burden of proof? So what? So what? So what? So what? Appeal to emotion? So what? Burden of proof? So what? Positive evidence? Positive evidence? Positive evidence? Positive evidence? Positive evidence? So what? So what? So what? Appeal to emotion? What? So what? What did you make of that, Andrew? I don't care. People meme on people all the time on the internet. She has a much larger audience than I do. There's nothing that I can do about that. But on almost every exit poll before she was able to get the swarmers in while it was live, I won every single one of them in that debate. Also, any of the AIs. AI algorithms point out that she had nothing substantive to say. But she has a larger audience. There's nothing, there's literally nothing I can do about that. But memes, stuff like that, that doesn't bother me. That's part of internet culture. And I think it's healthy, right? That's a healthy part of criticism. It's a healthy, like, you can't laugh at other people if you can't laugh at yourself, Piers. Yeah, I agree with you. Now, Robin Neal, you've been waiting very patiently. But can I ask you something, Andrew? Andrew, why? Sure. Can I ask you something, Andrew? Why do you think that one of Charlie's most. most trusted friends and top executives at Turning Point and one of Erica's most trusted friends and top executives at Turning Point called me and asked me to tell us, John? Well, who was it? You're going to have to say who it was, John. Yeah, who was it? You've got to give us a name. I know everybody at Turning Point. Piers, you understand about. Come on, I want to know now. Let's do this. I don't think you can just say some anonymous person called you. Okay, but hang on, hang on. If you're going to make a serious charge on that. Hang on, let me just grant it. Let me finish the question. Let me just grant it. Why would that happen if everything was all hunky-dory? This person told me that there was a power grab shortly after Charlie died, that a group of people were trying to get hold of the control of Turning Point, and he specifically asked me to let Candace know to specifically keep on investigating. This is one of Erica Kirk's best friends. You don't think that there might be something going on behind the scenes that is slightly more nuanced? Okay, hang on. I'm going to grant that this happened and that your source is being legit and all this. What in the hell does that have to do with whether or not Tyler Robinson shot Charlie Kirk? Well, I think with any investigation, you start pulling strings and you start looking into things that don't make sense. That actually does not. Do you realize that that doesn't actually answer the question? Great. We want to pull threads. Great. Can you explain to me why, even if this top executive did call you, did say all this to you, what in the hell does that have to do with whether or not Tyler Robinson shot Charlie Kirk? Can you just answer that directly? I think what it might speak to, and I don't know, because I don't know exactly everything that Candace has discovered, what I do know is that she's discovered a lot more than she has already revealed. And I think the next few months will be very interesting. I think they will be. Can you just answer the question that I asked you? What does that have to do with whether or not Robinson shot Kirk? The answer is nothing, right? It has nothing to do with it at all? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Nothing. Yeah, exactly. So who cares? Who cares if a top executive called you and whined? I'm not saying Robinson. I'm not saying. Why should anybody care that a top executive called you to whine and cry and bitch about the inner workings of Turning Point USA has nothing at all to do with anything to do with your obfuscation? No, he wasn't whining. He wasn't whining. How about you tell me who it is? He wasn't bitching. Because I'm headed down to Turning Point USA tomorrow and I want to know who this person is that told you this so I can have a conversation with this person. And maybe Erica should know who this person is. Does she know who it is? I'm sure she does. I'm sure she does. Okay. Are you sure or you know? I'm sure she does. You know for a fact or are you guessing? Well, because this is the game I don't want to play. I really do believe in Charlie Kirk and his message and his legacy. I really do believe in Turning Point USA. And if there's somebody that's a rat or somebody who's doing something wrong in Turning Point USA, I need to know. Because I wouldn't support an organization. How about if it's a good person? How about if it's a good person that wants to expose evil? Well, come on, let's work together. I'll work with that person. Well, how about me and them get together and find out evil? How are you telling me we want to discover evil? Good, and that's what Candace wanted to do. But you hired the people that can disclose it. And that's what Candace. That's what Candace begged Turning Point to do after Charlie was killed. Well, to put it out there right now. That everybody work together. That they share truthfully the information that they have. Well, let's put it out here now. That's what she was begging for. That's what I've been begging for. So we can shut the place down. We'll shut the place down if they're doing something of theirs against Charlie Kirk's legacy. Put your cards on the table. Let's put all the information on the table. Good, do it. No, it's not my privilege to disclose. Okay, look, he's not going to give us a name. So, well, look, I respect you not revealing the source, it's fine. Look, I want to move on to one thing before we finish. And that's to bring Rob O'Neill to be sitting very patiently. Rob, thank you for your patience. Of course. 9-11, 25th anniversary. I mean, we talk about conspiracy theories. There are raging conspiracy theories to this day about 9-11 in all different aspects of it. You know, some about you, you know, that you weren't the guy that killed Osama bin Laden, even though you obviously were. What, Piers, where did you hear that? But how do you deal with that, though? Rob, I mean, on a personal level, when you know you're the guy that killed bin Laden and it's been verified by. number of the guys that were with you but you have some who say no no it wasn't him it was me whatever how do you deal with that well i uh andrew wilson just said you know it's part of it i don't really care that's that's just how it is i mean with me it's not like a story i'm just telling you what happened and with the truth it's like either believe me or you don't and something else with the truth it takes no uh there's no effort you don't need to you don't really need to prove over and over the truth when you're covering something up you really need to get emotional and fire stuff up and really really yell about things and that's just not that's not where i am you know and it's uh i know there's conspiracies everywhere and we see it with every major event from uh 9 11 to october that we had a years ago um you know everything from the gulf of tonkin there's always stuff like that and if you weren't there you don't know exactly what happened but the thing is with stuff like 9 11 october 6 or even going to war even if you don't believe in why it happened it comes down to who's next to you in combat we never lost a fight toe-to-toe and i was fighting for the man next to me that's it it wasn't about george bush it wasn't about barack obama it was never about that and the same thing with the conspiracies look people jumped out of the towers and all i'm saying is i would much rather have another 9 12 than i would another 9 11 because it happens it doesn't matter why we got here or how we just are here and that's where we are i mean even right now getting together and having having a lively debate but cordial uh that's what it's all about um um the one takeaway i take from all is uh i never travel or go to sleep at night angry with anyone in my family because you don't know what's coming tomorrow you're worried about in life never happens it's the random lockdown on a thursday when you're thinking about a primary in the in the 2020 election stuff like that so uh master the basics be good to your family and your community and just uh you know take it as fan duel is now available everywhere in the u.s so you can get in on the sports action no matter where you are including these places and georgia and houston cleveland minnesota buffalo lincoln chitown arizona make this your most rewarding season ever with fan agent location restrictions apply product availability varies by market see fanduel.com for eligibility gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER if it comes and rob if it's uh if it's ever the case that uh that we meet and we're able to have a drink i'm gonna buy you an asama bin laden you know what that is that's two shots and a drink of water the way the way we called it was technically three shots and a splash okay yes i appreciate that that's awesome i did quit drinking but i'd love to meet up and do that i'll think of something else that'll be lively and fun rob i talked to megan kelly earlier about the fact that new york obviously has its first muslim mayor mandani and there's a debate driven by rudy giuliani saying he shouldn't attend the memorial service on friday because of his you know alleged association with people connected to 9-11 hijackers that he's the mayor of new york and he was elected and it i mean again doesn't matter how we got here we did some new yorkers say well the new yorkers didn't vote for him yes they did he won the election he's a new yorker he's the mayor 25 year anniversary he should 100 be there and do you have any problem with him being there personally i don't at all no yeah well i can uh attest rob i've interviewed you many many times you were the hero who killed asama bin laden and on the 25th anniversary i'd like to once again i certainly work with a lot of heroes yeah and i'd like to just thank you and all the navy seal team six guys that did that i was on air i remember i was at cnn at the time went on there after it happened it was an amazing moment in american history in in the world's history and you did us all a massive favor when you it was the greatest honor to be picked to be part of that team uh nothing can nothing can take that away from any of us yeah we'll end on that on that very positive note a very interesting debate i have to say i thank all of you uh for today that was really fascinating to watch i have to say thank you all very much thanks man well joining me now is a true crime legend nancy grace the host of crime stories nancy great to talk to you likewise peers nice to see you it's been a while we used to have a lot to do with each other when i was at cnn you were at hln it's great to see you again looking so well um so much happening in your wheelhouse of expertise isn't there um on this huge story of the charlie kirk murder there are myriad conspiracy theories raging around many driven by candace owens and her followers what is your assessment on all the evidence being presented so far what is your assessment of this case conspiracy theorists will always be with us and i i wonder where that comes from i think people simply do not want to believe the facts because i find them very straightforward and let's just start with the fact that the alleged shooter tyler robinson um had access to his grandfather's mauser double aught six so what am i supposed to think that someone else got tyler robinson's grandpa's shotgun his gun and then sneaks to the event to gun down charlie kirk well who who would that be let's just start with that straightforward argument because very often and you and i've talked about this before when you get into scientific theories uh let's just go with top mom casey anthony for a moment a lot of scientific evidence was brought on that there was decomp decomposition air in top mom's trunk where the body was kept now that's hard to explain to a non-scientific person that the air itself can come out of the trunk and it got very very intricate and sometimes it's just too much for the jury it's just like a tidal wave but the thought that who else is going to use grandpa's mauser beside him it ain't the mom it ain't the dad so it's him and then of course there's the video showing him going up and down to the sniper's nest there are his confessions there's tons of evidence yet somehow there are still conspiracy theories that he didn't do it i suppose the the only unanswered question uh after that is well did anyone put him up to it and that's i guess one thing which may or may not emerge peers well i listen stop my view is right my view is there's no evidence of any of that put him up to it peers under the law that would be some type of coercion and he looked pretty happy-go-lucky to me as he was going up those steps to a sniper's den to murder charlie kirk and what about all those scouting trips where he would go and look around the scene and pick the location of the perfect sniper's nest who was making him do that who made him go get his grandfather's gun who made him say i had my chance to take charlie kirk out and i took it who made him do all that sounds like bragging to me not coercion it does and you know one of the problems here is it's interesting if you look at the early part of your career there was no social media right and you couldn't have this kind of group think flooding the airways of the internet because none of it existed now with all these cases we see it and we saw it you know with lindsey the lindsey clancy case right exactly the same thing where somebody starts a mad conspiracy theory and before we know it everyone's leaping on this and say well maybe that's that's what happened how problematic is that becoming do you think for example to the minds of of jurors or potential jurors when you have this kind of trial by by public jury going on at the same time well number one i like it i like social media theories because it gives me an idea where the defense is going to go and you know pierce when i would prepare any trial i would not only prepare my own case but i would try to anticipate what is the defense going to do so i can shoot it down before they even get it in the air and i always like to just hit them in the opening statement and shoot down all their theories and turn around and look at them and they look really like deflated balloons so i like to hear that i like to research what people are saying online i like to listen and read the live chats while crime stories is airing um so i can see reaction and where people's minds are going so we can be prepared for the defense it's going to be really hard to claim coercion or the sod defense some other dude did it when we got tyler robinson on video going up to the sniper's den there's ballistics there's just so much evidence there's dna and it goes on and on and on in fact the towel that was used to wrap the murder weapon has dna from the roommate lance twiggs and i'm not suggesting that he had anything to do with the murders i'm saying it came from their home so the some other dude went into their place snuck a towel got grandpa's gun and then planted the defendant's dna that did not happen sorry all you conspiracy theorists there there is evidence that this sort of what they call the candace owens effect is having an impact on the public polymarket so so the number of people who think tyler robinson will be convicted of homicide has fallen from 59 to just 30 today only a third of people according to these latest numbers believe this guy is guilty of the crime of murder what do you make of that not very much because they're not going to be sitting on the jury, so don't care. Simple. As simple as that. Just as simple as that. Come on. You know what I found out? You know what I found out, Piers? I found out that people were taking bets on the Clancy trial. That is sick. What ghoul is doing that? I mean, three dead children. Piers, this is something I normally would tell a jury. I don't really talk about it on air, but now I feel like I have been forced to in the past few days. Those strangulations of those three children, Cora, Dawson, and Callen, were so ferocious, partially because of the ligature itself. They were exercise bands, which are stretchy like a bungee cord. So, Lindsay Clancy, who admits she killed the children, that's not up to discussion, had to pull and pull and readjust tension, as experts call it. Translation, pull even harder, which means these children's necks had to be deformed. Shrunk down like that, with their head on top of a little neck like that, by the time mommy was done with them. I mean, let's just think about that for a moment. But is that the action, Nancy? And yet somehow, it's all about Lindsay Clancy. Right. I mean, I had that debate with Megyn Kelly earlier, because is that the actions of somebody of sound mind, could it be she was genuinely suffering from a psychosis, which compelled her to do this? And it remains just as heinous a crime. But did they charge her with the wrong thing? Should they have charged her with something which rather than first-degree murder, where you'd have to make a calculation if this was cold-blooded, premeditated, and so on, that actually she lost her mind, did this despicable crime, and should be incarcerated in some institution for many, many years, but not convicted of first-degree murder? Because, as you said, it's a crime. As it turned out, 11 of the jurors just wouldn't accept that's what happened. Really? Is that what you think, Piers? Because I have been listening very carefully to what the jurors are now unbundling. One of them said, well, we had to do not guilty by reason of insanity, or else she wouldn't get the treatment she so desperately needs. In other words, we were worried about the sentencing. That juror also said she would never get therapy in prison, irrelevant to guilt or innocence. They are not to concern themselves with sentencing. And so much more, another juror has just come out, the fourth juror, and says, maybe I still believe she's guilty. What? So my point is, yes, you're stating that, is it possible she was insane for 18 minutes? Because she Apple-mapped her husband's trip on the errands she sent him on. She mapped. How long? How long he would be gone from the home. She called the CVS store manager to make sure they'd have pediatric Miralax so the husband, Patrick Clancy, wouldn't call her in the middle of killing her children. But yet he still did call her, and she sounded perfectly normal, a tiny bit distracted because she was busy killing her children, but completely normal. That very morning, Piers, she had gone to Cora, her daughter's pediatrician, interacted with nurses and doctors, and they said she was normal. She took the children to the park that afternoon, just a few hours before murdering them, and sent pictures to her husband and her in-laws of them playing in the park. He spoke to her. He communicated with her, and she says, oh, yeah, by the way, when you go pick up the food, can you stop at CVS and get this Miralax? She had been researching that since 4 o'clock, but she made it seem like an afterthought. So to you, she was. The minute that door slams, suddenly, a voice comes in her ear and says, kill the children! And she says, oh, okay. She had never heard it before, never heard it again. That is not, in my experience, and I have tried, not guilty by reason of insanity before, how auditory hallucinations start. They normally start up to a year before, telling you to do this evil thing. You don't hear them for 18 minutes of your life, and then never again. Nancy Grace, so good to talk to you. I can't think of anyone better qualified to talk about this. Wait, we're over? Aren't you going to argue with me a little bit? Well, no, because I look at what happened here, and my view is not that there's any doubt that she committed a despicable crime and killed her three children. But 11 of the jurors were prepared to acquit her of first-degree murder, and one guy held out. And so the judge ended the trial as a mistrial. But if he hadn't held out, then she would have walked free. And my argument is, if they had charged her. No, they were going for not guilty by reason of insanity, not acquittal. Right, so my point, though, is. N-G-B-R-I. I understand, but my point would have been, if they had charged her with something else, not first-degree murder, they might have all found her guilty. In other words, it may have been a cleaner piece. Such as what? Well, in England, we would call it manslaughter on grounds of diminished responsibility. There was that charge, Piers. Yeah. They were charged. The jury had that option. They had murder one, voluntary, involuntary, N-G-B-R-I, not guilty by reason of insanity, and not guilty, a walk. They had the alternative to go with voluntary, and they didn't. And this morning, we hear a juror say, I still think maybe she was guilty. It's just, these jurors are all over the map. They should just stop talking. Well, I agree with that. We don't really get much. We don't get that in England. The jurors don't do media. Media afterwards. It's a very interesting American thing, which is always fascinating and quite unsettling when you hear them. I've been listening to the same interviews as you have, and it's unsettling. Their stories are moving around all over the place, and actually, I think in the end, quite a few of them felt really sorry for her. I don't feel sorry for her. I think what she did was a despicable crime that snuffed out the lives of three young children. It's just, I think the fact it's ended in a mistrial is extremely unfortunate, and there might have been a better way legally to handle this. It is. But one more thing, Piers, is in America, as you well know, because you've covered so many cases here, intent. Intent to commit a crime can be formed in the twinkling of a moment, the blink of the eye. The time it takes me to pull a gun and put a trigger is enough time under our jurisprudence to prove intent. It does not require a long, drawn-out plan such as poisoning Piers Morgan with a little bit of arsenic every day till he kills over six months from now. It can be formed just like that. And the time she slams the door behind, one hour later he comes back, all of his children are dead. He comes to her, she says, I tried to kill myself. She didn't mention the children. When she comes out of it at the hospital, her first words, some of them are, do I need a lawyer? And I need to call Patrick and see where we stand. Not anything about the children. That's disturbing, and that was no longer under the influence of the voice. Nancy, great to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed for coming on set. Don't leave us alone next time. Likewise, please invite me back. Bye, buddy. I'm a bit concerned you're giving my team ideas about arsenic in my tea, so I'm just going to go and change my mug. OK, bye, Piers. Great to see you. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. 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