Eric Goode (documentary filmmaker)

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Monica Padman. Hi. This guy is among the most interesting human beings I've ever spoken to in my life. Eric Goode. Colorful character. He, immediately what you'll know is he directed Tiger King and we all saw that. He also directed Chimp Crazy. Ugh, a favorite of ours. A huge favorite, Tonka. And his new documentary is on HBO. It's streaming now called Monsters of God. I love it so much. And I thought we were just going to talk to a documentarian. No, no, no, no, no, no. Eric's had 26 lives before being the biggest documentarian. He owns all your favorite hotels in New York City. It's wild. Crazy history with nightclubs. Biggest turtle conservationist probably around. This dude has done every single thing. He's so punk rock. I loved him. Please enjoy. Eric Goode. We get support from Quince. You know what I think about a lot? The stuff in my closet, I actually wear. Like, not the trendy pieces. The sweater that goes with everything or the pants that fit perfectly. The tee you kind of just throw on without even thinking. That's what Quince does. They make those pieces. That's right. They have 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters starting at $60. Organic cotton, merino wool. Quality you'd expect from a luxury brand. Luxury without the luxury price. We love that. They skip the middlemen, go direct to ethical factories, and pass those savings to you. We're talking 50% to 80% less than similar brands. I'm so excited for fall simply because I love my cashmere sweaters from Quince. And I also got to add that right before I left Nashville, I was assigned the task of putting all the bedding back on my children's bed. And I got to fold first the Quince sheets and comforter, then unfold them and put them. And the entire time I was spreading it all out, I was like, by God, they really are so soft. It's crazy. They are. I also have a pair of sheets from Quince that are really, really good. And honestly, what sets Quince apart is that everything feels intentional. These are timeless, versatile pieces designed to be the dependable stuff you reach for day after day. You're not buying something just for right now. You're buying something that's going to be in your rotation for years. They've also got hotel-quality bedding and bath, kitchen essentials, even furniture. So if you're doing any kind of refresh at home, too, same quality, same prices across the board. Quince just gets it. Find your next fall. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash DAX. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash DAX. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Honestly, if I could just flip a switch overnight and be better at one thing, I'd want to be better at handling stress in a healthier way, like not letting the small. small stuff snowball into this whole thing where I'm tense for the rest of the day over something that didn't even matter. It came to mind immediately because I know I do it. Someone cuts me off in traffic and somehow I'm still thinking about it at dinner. Two seconds, that's all it was. So yeah, that's what I'm working on. And that's where BetterHelp comes in. You know how I feel about therapy. It's just necessary. In fact, sometimes I know I'm not supposed to say this. I judge you if you've never tried it. Better is a feeling defined by you. And for BetterHelp, it's a BetterHelp therapist who really gets you. It's a focus on global, emotional well-being with thousands of therapists and millions of members in over a hundred countries. It's progress. And it's getting better at letting the small stuff stay small. That's my better. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com slash DAX. That's BetterHelp.com slash DAX. BetterHelp.com slash DAX. I thought it was four. I've been saying four my whole life. My mom corrected me the other day. You've only been back to the homeland once. Well, no. And then we went with Bill Gates a couple years ago. But we didn't get to go to Carolina. Oh, that guy, Bill Gates. That guy. That guy. We went with him for his foundation. I'm so glad you guys didn't talk too much because I have the most exciting things to reveal to Monica about you. And I want to start this by saying we don't generally interview directors. I can't say why. We've had a handful. But in general, we don't. Well, I'm a fake director, so keep going. But I was so obsessed with Chimp Crazy. I can't imagine I got back to you, but I bet that's all I talked about for the entire time it was on on this show. Of course, I love Tiger King. And I love them so much that I was like, I actually want to meet this guy because these docs are so crazy. And I want to talk about animals. And then when I started reading about you today, I was like, oh, my God, you're one of the most interesting human beings in the world. I would have wanted to interview you anyways. You've had like 25 weeks. You've had so many different lives. And some of these lives are going to make Monica's head explode. It's very exciting. You must be talking about someone else. Someone sitting over here, maybe. No, no, no, no. A new guest coming in. No full humility. But let's start at the beginning. And when she hears these, I mean, this is a very exciting. What, like you like we're on Friends or something? First of all, don't believe what you read on the Internet. Wikipedia, Google, even peer review is inaccurate. I'm just saying, even scientific peer review is not accurate. So let me hear this fiction that you've read about me. We're now throwing out peer review journals. How many years I did in prison? What did you read? Well, let's start. You have the best birthday in the world. Our daughter's birthday, December 19th, 1957. Oh, God, you must be talking about the wrong guy. I was born in 77. Okay. And you were originally born in Rhode Island, but then you grew up in New York City till eight? My formative year is mostly Northern California, in California. But yes, I had a stint in New York. And was it zero to eight? I was born in Rhode Island. I left. I left when I was so young, I don't remember. And then we went to California. Then we went to Westchester, New York, not New York City. Okay. My father was a teacher. And he moved around a lot because he couldn't hold jobs very well. He was an artist as well? He was an artist and not terribly successful, but I learned a lot about art from him, yeah. And then I grew up high school years and a bit earlier in Marin County and Sonoma County in California. And for folks who have not been, it's on the other side of the Golden Gate Bridge. It's Redwoods. It's so beautiful. Very privileged part of the country. I moved to New York in 1976. And spent over 40 years in New York City. Wow. Okay, but mom was a naturalist and a conservationist? In what capacity? Listen, you know this. You know this probably. Everyone has crazy families. I always think mine's the craziest, but it's not. I had an eccentric mom who taught me to love creatures no matter how small. If someone squashed a bug in school, I would tell them to eat it because don't kill something unnecessarily. My father was an artist and a professor. A professor? And gay, which I found out. Much later in life. So I had this kind of father that was like anti-sports. He started his own high school. It was very artsy-fartsy. And I didn't really find out about his sexuality until very late in life. My parents had a very odd relationship. As a result of the hidden five kids. Did she know? She didn't know until very late in life. My mom just was attracted to guys that had kind of an effeminate side. Yeah. Like art and museums and botanical gardens. Yeah, those guys are great. I think all girls are attracted to those kind of guys. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why you guys have girl best friends. What's not to like? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's what all girls are. Maybe the SCX wasn't too exciting. Yeah. That's her lack. But he was able to sire five of you. I think he just wanted to keep my mom busy so he didn't have to engage in that kind of stuff. I don't know. It was the 50s and 60s. That's a very hard time to be a gay man. That's true. Yeah. Stonewall happened and that was one of the big gay breakthroughs in New York. Yeah, you couldn't say you were gay in those days. You said your mother? Your mother was eccentric. Can you elaborate a tiny bit on eccentric? That can take a lot of shades. Yeah. I always sort of compare my family to the Royal Tannenbaums or something because we grew up with a lot of animals in the house, tropical fish, rats, snakes, lizards, you know, dog, cat, five kids, dysfunctional, fighting all the time. I went to this thing called Est when I was really young. You know, I don't know if Warner or Airheart. That's a precursor to Landmark. In the 70s, exactly, when I was 16. So, you know, new age. Can I quickly ask what you thought of that Est experience? Because their proprietary approach was like confrontation therapy, right? It's a self-help organization. Yeah, but the guy, Warner Earhart, was like a used car salesman, you know, probably from Detroit or somewhere near there. And he then had an epiphany and he said, I'm going to indoctrinate this thing. And used car salesmen can be pretty convincing. And so then with Esty, he was pretty convincing. And he had his minions. And my mom thought, oh, my brother and I are fighting. We're 15 and 16. You got to go to Est in San Francisco and spend two days listening to this guy. I didn't know what the fuck I was listening to. All I remember was at the end, they say, get on the floor. Everyone gets on the floor of this big, giant auditorium. And they say, relive your birth. And I'm lying on the floor with my brother. And we hear everyone agonizing yells and screams. We're like this primordial ooze. We're like, what the fuck is going on here? And we left. And then they say to you, did you get it? And we go, I don't know. And they said, you got it. And I was asked. But did it cure your brother and you in that you had a shared moment where you're like, oh, they're crazy, we're not. I guess. We didn't know what was going on. You don't have that kind of intellectual. I didn't. I was dyslexic. I was bad in school. I was like, just going through the motions at Est. Although today, I might even do a doc about Est. Comes full circle. Did you watch the Americans? No. Incredible show on FX with Matthew Rhys and Keri Russell where they're playing Russian operatives in America in the early 80s. And she falls in love with Est. Oh, really? Yeah, so there's lots of scenes set in Est. I mean, Est, they always keep wanting you to go back. It's like Scientology a little bit. Like, it went from Est to actualization to the forum. Yeah, Landmark Forum. And they keep wanting you to get to the next level. I did it once. I grew up in such a New Age crazy world in Northern California in the 70s. We had Joseph Campbell come and speak at our ranch. We had everyone you can think of in the New Age movement at that time. And so I kind of rejected it. Sure. Because I was just so indoctrinated. My dad was sober. And he was into A Course in Miracles and all this stuff. And I was like, what the fuck's going on? Did Mom go to Esalen? Oh, my God. Esalen used our ranch every summer. So Esalen, the first time I think I ever had sex was the kid of one of the Esalen leaders. But yes, of course, Esalen, you know, all of that stuff. Jim Jones was in San Francisco at the time, but I didn't drink the Kool-Aid. Thank God. You know, but there was Synanon. There were all the communes. It was what I grew up in. Synanon's great. Yeah, but of course, Esalen. Did you watch that doc, the Synanon doc? I did watch. I watched some of the Synanon doc. I do remember vividly when the head of Synanon put the rattlesnake in the mailbox to try to kill the journalist unsuccessfully. And of course, anything with rattlesnakes perks my ears. So yes, I lived in California when that happened. Okay, so you end up going to two different art schools, right? You go to one in San Francisco, and then you ultimately go to Parsons? Yeah, I got kicked out, though. There's already a vibe here, right? And I find it fascinating that you are a documentarian and interview people. You're reminding me of Keith Morrison. I'm like, you don't want to talk, man. Yeah, but whatever. Yeah. No, but what? Right? A little bit? Yeah, there's a little bit of that. These are all interesting things. I mean, listen, it takes one to know one over their decks, because you have an unorthodox career path, if I might say so myself. For sure. Just looking you up very briefly. Yeah. And going from Detroit suburbs and the car world into anthropology and studying that. And how the hell do you land where you are right now? Yeah. So we all have a weird. Well, no, we don't all. Well, some of us do. Yeah, some of us do. I'm always very interested in folks, because there's a lot of underlying things within that, right? I, too, was dyslexic. I've come to learn, I'm probably ADHD. Probably me, too. I get passionate about things, and then if I've done anything for a while, I'm like, okay, what's the next thing in life I can do before I am off this planet, which is coming quickly? But you do go to Parsons. Which one did you get kicked out of, Parsons or the first one? Both, both. Oh, nice. I was really good at getting kicked out of school. Really good job. Well, I got kicked out of my father's high school, which was called the School for the School of Arts and Sciences, for cheating on a geometry test. My father's. He started the school. It was an alternative high school that was called the School of Arts and Sciences. Thank God for that, because I know you've had Malcolm Gladwell on, but thank God, because I could achieve in that environment, because I excelled in art, and I sucked in academics. I got kicked out of my father's school. I got kicked out of Parsons after the first foundation year, because I was going to night clubs in New York, and that's where the art scene was really sort of germinating at the time. What was your infraction? At the art school? I just think I wasn't good enough, because there was a certain level of academics you had to take in the foundation year, and I was studying more at Studio 54, and not night clubs, at the Mug Club. These are places that predate you guys, but they were big clubs in New York at the time. This is where we start with the mind-blowing stuff. Ooh. He's excited. This is incredibly exciting. So, Eric founded with a couple other folks, right? Or just you? I like to say everything's just me, by the way. Soul of credit. Never give credit to the others. It was all just me. You were a founder of, or if not the only, of Area, this nightclub that fused or conflated nightclub life with art, and among the collaborations at Area, it was, like, wildly popular for four years. Is that how long it was going? A little less, but yeah, yeah, yeah. A Warhol collaboration. Dang. Basquiat collaboration. Keith Haring. Wow. Is this contemporary to Studio 54? Post the real part of Studio 54. My two friends that own Studio 54. Studio 54, unfortunately, went to prison, and when they got out of prison, Area basically opened in 1983. Studio 54 went from, like, 76 or 7 to 1979 or whenever they went to prison. Yes, okay. And they got out of prison, and they really helped promote my club, because they were like, we're fresh out of prison, what do we do? What's next? What's the new club? Yeah, they're like gangsters that got out. They're trying to figure out, like, what's the next heist at JFK? But, you know, in New York nightlife success, I guess, if you measure it, four years, three years. Four years is like dog years, so that's like 50 years. Yeah. Yeah. Clubs are ephemeral in New York, so if you have a run that's three years, you've done pretty well. Yeah. Because none of them last, in New York City at least. Okay, so I'm trying to do the math on your age. What age were you around that? I was in my 20s, and we were all in our 20s back there. Andy was, Andy Warhol was kind of like the older statesman in the art world, but Jean-Michel Basquiat and I used to do our birthday parties together a lot. Oh, my God. By the way, we're not to the part that's going to make your head spin. That's so exciting. Well, Keith Haring, Jean-Michel, all of us were young kids in New York trying to find our way. Had you met at Parsons or just around the village? No, no. I just met, everyone I met was in the nightclub scene. There was no cell phones, no internets, no social media, no nothing. The only way you could connect with people is go to a place where other people were, and it was sex, drugs, and rock and roll, and art, and they were kind of like laboratories, these clubs, for ideas and exchanging ideas and cross-pollinating, and so I met Jean-Michel and Keith. All of us met in the late '70s, and we just started trying to figure out how to make our mark like everyone. Madonna was a bartender back then at this place called Lucky Strike in New York, a different Lucky Strike than the one you may know of, but we all would come to New York because we're misfits from all over the country. You seem to have done some research on me, so you're aware of the fact that I'm an addict, right? Yeah, yeah, but I was an addict, too, and I'm still an addict in a different way. Oh, yeah, right. So when I read this little passage about area, all I can think about is how many drugs, was it awash in drugs? The drug scene always kind of morphs and changes. In those days, it was cocaine, Quaaludes, and heroin were the three. Meth was more of a rural drug. It wasn't an urban drug as it is today, and it wasn't like what it's become, but yeah, it was those three drugs and alcohol. And were you participating in them? I was a late bloomer with addiction. In the early days, I had no money, and so I was just survival mode, and so I would do it opportunistically, but really, I was so focused on— Trying to be able to survive in New York City, and New York City was a very different place back then, much cheaper, but nevertheless— Was area not hugely profitable? It sounds like it would have been. Clubs are rarely hugely profitable. That's sad. I'll never forget when Andy Warhol said to me on Andy Warhol TV, he goes, "You know, gee, Eric and Andy Way, what are you going to do with your money?" And I said, "I'm going to get cool tortoises I could never afford." He was like, "What?" But you know, listen, we made money. We poured the money back into the club because we had these elaborate themes, and we would try to outdo ourselves. Your production was expensive. Yeah, so in the end, we walked away with not a lot of money, but we walked away with confidence that we could do it. Yeah. Gave us that thing. When you're young and you get that confidence— Yeah. And it's a success. Fuck yeah. And a cachet. It's like Michael Jordan winning the game shot in college. He does that. He'll always be able to win the game winning shot. Speaking of Michael Jordan, you have a talent that he has. You can talk and chew gum at the same time, but he has one other thing he can do. He can stick his tongue out and dunk, because I saw Michael. On the floor at the Garden one time, talking trash to everyone at the Knicks, his tongue wagging out, his gum still in his mouth, and dunking, I was like, "How the fuck does the gum stay in?" Well, he's a coordinated human being, if we know anything about him. Yeah. No, we know. Unbelievable. He scored 50 points in that game against the Knicks. Whoa. When he came back from baseball. But anyway. Were you at any of those Pacers games back in the day? I was at that one Michael Jordan game, because Naomi Campbell took me. We sat on the floor, and I just remember— What is going on? I'm parsing this out. I remember being able to listen to every word Michael said. It was amazing. Wow. Okay. I'm going to get right to it. If you had to pick your favorite place to be in New York City? The Rose Store. No. Oh, okay. Oh, man. No, no. Okay. Don't do that to a poor mother. No, no. She's going to pass this. What is your favorite place to post up and be and spend time at in New York City? I mean, I spend a lot of time at the Bowery. This motherfucker started the Bowery. You did not. He started the Maritime. Maritime? I'm just saying quiet Okay No, you were shaking your head, and I didn't know he did it. Because he's embarrassed. The Maritime. He's incredible. The Waverly. The Bowery. Dude, I was at the Maritime when I shot Baby Mama. I think it was the summer of 2005. The restaurant downstairs. I'm going to bore you with this. 2005, okay. Okay, I want you to know how your things actually have touched people. It seems like you don't do well taking that kind of compliment, but I'm going to tell it to you. It's good. I'm glad. Your ego isn't what it should be. Well, we'll try to get it there over the course of this next two hours. Okay, so I had been with a girl for nine years. We broke up. I was very in this doldrums of like, man, I don't even know what my life is. We were supposed to have a baby. I go to this movie, Baby Mama. I barely worked in Baby Mama. I have to work one, two days a week. And I just developed a bunch of New York friends, and I'm staying at the Maritime Hotel. And I go down by myself, and I met La Bottega. What is it called? La Bottega, yeah. La Bottega. God, you have a good memory. Yeah, Italian restaurant. Italian restaurant with outdoor seating. It's summer of 2005, I think, in New York. And I'm sitting out there. And the weather's perfect. And I eat this fucking beautiful meal. And I have this wave come over me. It's such a strong, visceral feeling that I remember so much. And I was just like, you know what? Life is fucking good. And I'm going to be okay, man. And let's have some fucking fun in New York City this summer. I had this moment. I left that restaurant. I was like, we're going to have a great time in New York City this summer. And we had a great time in New York City. That's nice to hear. Yes. It was a big part. The environment. The context. The context that you created. And the taste of the food and the weather. And I was like, yeah, man, fucking life is still going to be good. That's cool. Yeah, it's funny how I never thought owning clubs and restaurants and hotels that that would somehow give me an advantage making films. And the thing that I realize now, it all kind of weirdly connects because there are people that I've met through the years that were involved or stayed at my hotels or ate at my restaurants. I have a Rolodex. And then there's people like Ted Danson who lives right across. Yeah. But he also did a film in the Maritime Hotel where they shot this film. And it's just funny that one degree of separation and the connective tissue that later helps because I can pick up the phone and call Alan Cumming to be in Chimp Crazy. You know people. I know people. One more Maritime story. I'm staying there. Every morning I wake up, I want a coffee, right? And so every time I call, the operator answers. And then I have to give her my order. She then talks to the kitchen, right? So one of these mornings, I've been there for three weeks, right? And I say to this woman who I've not talked to every single morning, I say, listen, I just want you to know I think it's bullshit that you have to deal with my order. And then I can't call directly to room service. And she goes, oh, you think that's bullshit? That's just the beginning. And I go, what do you mean? She goes, I'm in a fucking basement right now. I go, no shit. You're in the basement. We start chatting for a very, very long time. And then she goes, this is fun, but I got to go. I want to have my cigarette break. I go, okay, I'll come down and join you. I go out in the front of the hotel. I start talking to this woman. And I learn she's a writer for Vice. And she tells me she has a book. And I get the book. It's called Dear Diary. And then her hero is Amy Poehler. So I bring her book to set on Baby Mama. I give it to Amy. That becomes a connection. She then ends up writing on girls. She then created her own TV show on Netflix. This woman, Leslie Arfin, who's incredible, who was the operator. She was the operator at your hotel. Who I developed this life on. It turned out we were both sober. And yeah, another crazy thing. Well, yeah, I had Zoe Cassavetes working down there. John Cassavetes' daughter for a while. Yeah, it's funny how that works. And they are working in a basement. Yeah, it's really, I'm so inhumane to my staff. Bowery Hotel offices are also in the basement. Well, for real estate, it's a premium. Where else are they going to be? Okay, sorry, let's talk about the Bowery. Oh my God, I just, I love it so much. I was just there. A couple weeks ago, I was just there. That's my home. That's my hotel. That's her home base. That's my home base. Well, I can hook you up next time, Monica. Oh my. Oh, we had a whole. I want to tell him. Okay, great. Okay, so I have to apologize to you, I suppose. Sure. I have an apology to make, an immense. So the keys at the Bowery are amazing. The fobs. They're legendary. Yes, exactly, the fobs. For people who don't know, they're this big tassel. Your number, hotel room number is carved onto the brass. It's beautiful, okay? I like items. So you stole the fob. I did. I didn't, I didn't. I kind of did. Okay, so I was in room 1111. Very, very auspicious. Very, very. That's my lucky number. I'm always seeing 1111. I get that room. And I was like, I have to have this tassel. Like, I don't know how I'm going to get it, but I have to. Now be careful, because what happens at the Bowery stays at the Bowery, Monica. So don't say anything too. Well, I've already said it. Unfortunately, this whole story is known to all the listeners. Unfortunately, everyone already knows. I'm not good at keeping secrets. But I'm also not good at stealing. So I did. I did go up to the front desk, and I said, how do I have this? I will buy it. I would like to buy it. How do I do that? And they're like, they're not for sale, but if they are taken, we charge this amount. Some ridiculous number. Yeah, and I was like, thank you for telling me that news. This is the last you'll ever see of this key. And I took it. We try to trick people into taking them so we can charge this enormous. So it's a real way we profit on the Bowery. That's where the margins at, isn't that key? It is. I'm shameless right now plugging my other hotel. I have a hotel in Ojai called Hotel El Roblar, and we have these brass cowboy hats on the fobs. And everyone wants the brass cowboy hat, and they do take them all the time, and we do have to charge. Yeah, I'm going to do that. You have to. I do want to go there. You have to. That's been on my Instagram algorithm. I was looking at it this morning, and it's gorgeous. And my wife has stayed at your tortoise place. Oh. Oh, the conservator. Right? Is that not yours? It is. Yeah. I have a hotel for tortoise. I have tortoises in Ojai as well, and I'm much better at tortoise hospitality than human hospitality. They get pampered really well. You are not. The hospitality at those hotels are incredible. I can't believe this. This is very cool. This is great. But let me just tell you one last thing about hotels. Owning hotels, the thing that you learn is what do you do when someone commits suicide? What do you do with all these weird things that happen in hotels? So there's this whole thing we don't talk about when you own hotels. When do most people have sex? It's Friday afternoons when people are cheating on themselves. They're cheating on their wives in between the hours of like 8 p.m. and midnight. You can hear the cacophony of sexual activity when you walk down the hallways. And so there's all these sort of things that we, and I shouldn't be saying it. No, this is fantastic. I'll keep my mouth shut about what happens in hotels, but it's very interesting. My grandparents owned the roadside motel on the border of Indiana and Michigan growing up, and I would go there for the summer. It was called the Colonial Motor Inn. My sweet, sweet grandmother, who was very tiny, the amount of dead bodies, she found in her tenure of running the Colonial Motor Inn. Like, every time I saw my grandma, I mean, how many dead bodies have you found since I saw you? Because people do go to hotels to end their lives. And it's a whole thing, by the way, because your housekeeping won't go into those rooms until you have someone come, usually a priest, and bless the room and cleanse the room. And there's a whole thing about, you know, the shining, kind of like that kind of thing. Like, oh, is this hotel haunted? You can get that rumor of a haunted hotel, the Maritime Hotel. Maritime. You just have that, and it's like. I'm staying there for, like, a couple of weeks, and people just start telling me these ghost stories about the Maritime. And one of them was a woman woke up, and a ghost was having sex with her. Oh, my God. I said, what was your reaction? She goes, I was terrified. And I'm like, I would be so fucking delighted if I woke up. Well, that's one of the amenities that we offer at the Maritime. The ghost sex interaction is one of the most popular. Wow, what a life. So, yeah, that chapter was pretty long. What are the borders of that chapter? Where that was your full focus before you really started getting into conservation and stuff? Yeah, like you said earlier, I like to figure something out, and, you know, you kind of crack the code, and you do it, and then you don't want to just keep doing the same thing over and over again. So the progression was the hotels were great. It afforded me resources to do other things. I made some money. Clubs are ephemeral. I didn't really make money, but it was fun in my youth. And after a while, I had a few hotels, and then I started thinking, what's next? You know, life is short. And I kind of always was a closeted reptile guy and turtle guy in New York and never really spoke about that love affair that I would have. Did you have a bunch in your apartment? I did, and girlfriends would always be kind of like, oh, my God, what are you living with? Why is most of the apartment filled with these reptiles and tortoises? And do you not think there's a little bit of a smell when you have those aquariums? Yeah, I started feeling a little bit like goats in the apartment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The tortoises were big, and they grew. But, listen, that was an indelible love affair since then. I was a kid. Did you have any hijinks? Like, did any reptiles get loose ever? Yeah, of course. Yeah, it's their nature. I mean, listen, I don't recommend this to people, but in the early days, you know, we had themes at this club I owned in the early 80s, and we would have natural history theme. Any chance I got, I would try to figure out how to incorporate animals into the club. I had a great horned owl. I had bats. I had a 15-foot python that escaped under the floorboards. I only found it years later when we took the club apart, the skeleton. No! No, no, I shouldn't even admit that. No, you're right. I like your honesty. Yeah, we like it. Yeah, I'll regret it later. But snakes escaped in my life. You know, I used to sleep with a lizard when I was in high school. I called it Tegu, a big black and white South American lizard. Wow. It wasn't the best creature to sleep with because it couldn't control itself. You know, its bowels. They're in common. Oh, boy. Anyway, anyway, but yeah, I did the hotels. I still have them. I just opened one in Ojai last year. Open one here, please. In L.A.? L.A. needs better hotels. old friends with Andre that owns the Chateau Marmont. and that's a whole other story. We love that, but that's far away. Yeah, if you know of any, Monica, just tell me. Dax and I would maybe like to get in the hotel business again. Yes, I think we could really diversify. We could have a fun little, another chapter. Not for you, but for me. We need an east side hotel. I'm putting that out there. Oh, and then just quickly, because you said, but did you have a little addiction? Did it ever get a little questionable? Oh, yeah. In my life? What are you talking about? Yeah, it's good. I'm like living in New York City. I like the dopamine rush of everything. Career dopamine rush, drug dopamine rush, the euphoria of having a success, and then the, you know, then what? You always want more and more and more, of course. And I think my father was really an alcoholic, to be fair. I think it runs in the family sometimes. Yeah, yeah. You know, look, Jean-Michel died of a heroin overdose. Jean-Michel Bosca. I was with him the night he died, and I've seen a lot of casualties along the way, obviously. It's like the opposite ends of the spectrum, in the most dramatic way possible. Well, we always, we always have euphoric recall, right? We forget the bad stuff, right? And then we go back, and then we forget, oh, shit. No, it's definitely taken a toll on certain periods of my life, for sure. So then you must love Monsters of God. I mean, we're getting to deal with a lot of drugs, which is fun, because we haven't had that in your first couple. Well, no, that's not true. Tiger King was very meth-heavy. Yeah, I try not to go deep into the meth, but yeah, there was a lot of meth. I kind of didn't include as much as I could have. But it would be crazy not to acknowledge it's such a powerful force within the stories we're witnessing. It's like when you wonder, well, why is Joe Exotic got these young guys? What's the leverage? That needs an explanation, and the explanation is drugs. Yeah, I mean, it's a little like that horrible saying, a little pooch gets you a lot of cooch. A little tiger gets you a lot of boys. Nothing better than a little tiger. Sorry about that. No, we love it. But, you know, like the little baby tigers were a good gateway drug into the drug industry. We love you getting boys for Joe, and then sprinkle a little meth in with the tigers, and then you have a threesome and a foursome. Yeah. You got these cute little monkeys on top of it that you can sugarcoat everything. He had a pretty good trap to get his victims. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. But all of that was going on. It was a cocktail of baby tigers, baby animals, meth, and boys. But I guess what I'm saying is I think it's helpful. Like, we'll go into 7-Eleven, me and my family, and we get back in the car, and they're a little bit, like, what was going on with blank, blank, blank? And I'm like, okay, so that dude was on meth for three days. That dude was nodding off from junk. I know what's going on immediately. I know what the fucking scenario is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that is a useful skill set when navigating a world like that. I have offices next to MacArthur Park. Oh, yes. My hotel's on the Bowery in New York. I can tell when I see someone walking across the street barely able to stand, I usually go, like, oh, I want to feel like that guy. I know what that feels like. He's barely teetering, and he's on dope. And then the meth addicts are over there. I don't know if I want to feel like that. I'm an anthropologist. I can tell what's what. An urban anthropologist. Yeah. I can tell who's on what. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking your teeth before walking into a meeting. You smiled at six people in the hall, confidently, full teeth. You felt great about it until you caught your reflection and realized you'd been carrying a piece of spinach like an accessory since lunch. Yeah. Checking first is a good idea. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. We get support from YouTube Premium. Okay, I got to tell you something. I just got YouTube Premium. This year. And it's completely enhanced how I use YouTube. I already liked YouTube for obvious reasons. Watching all my car stuff on there. Everything. Everything's on there. And thought, how could YouTube get any better? Well, Premium has awesome features like offline downloads. Just use it on a plane ride. So I can download my favorite automotive shows and videos to watch when I'm on the go. And that means I don't have to wait when I don't have Wi-Fi, which is especially great when I'm traveling and don't have guaranteed Wi-Fi on airplanes. Speaking of not waiting, and this is a great question, and this is my favorite part. YouTube Premium is ad-free, so I can watch uninterrupted whenever, wherever. Background Play also comes in clutch because I can lock my screen and keep the audio going. This comes in handy when I go out for a walk or when I'm in the middle of a great podcast. Plus, it has a ton of other features I didn't even know about. Like, did you know, Premium automatically downloads videos from channels you subscribe to? So even when I forget, my content is still right there for me. So if you're like me and you already like YouTube, you're going to love YouTube Premium. Try it now for two months free. Trial eligibility varies. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. We get support from HERS. If you're on a weight loss journey, you know the appointment is the smallest part. The real work happens between visits, the side effects at 9 p.m., the dosing question on a Sunday, the food that isn't sitting right. That's where most care just stops. The new HERS care experience is built for those moments. Your provider, AI-informed by doctors who've guided women like you and your care team all in one conversation, all working toward your goal. No repeating yourself. No waiting on an appointment for a quick answer. Weight Loss by HERS gives you access to FDA-approved GLP-1 medications, including the Wagovi pill and the Wagovi pen, with a care experience built around you, right at your fingertips in the app. Everything happens online. Connect with a licensed provider who will determine if treatment is right for you. If prescribed, medication is delivered right to your door. Ready to see what weight loss care can actually look like? Visit forehers.com slash armchair to meet the new HERS app. That's F-O-R-H-E-R-S dot com slash armchair. forehers.com slash armchair. Weight Loss by HERS is not available in all 50 states. Prescription required. AI responses in the HERS app are AI-generated and do not constitute a medical diagnosis. AI can make mistakes. A licensed provider is always available to answer questions or discuss next steps. AI support is a new feature that is rolling out to eligible customers over time. Wagovi is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk AS. HIMS, Inc. is not affiliated with or endorsed by Novo Nordisk AS. For important safety information, Wagovi clinical study information and restrictions, visit forehers.com. This episode is brought to you by Peacock with a new season of The Paper. The documentary team that immortalized Dunder Mifflin has found a new subject, a Midwestern newspaper and the ragtag team trying to revive it. What they lack in journalistic experience, they make up for in heart. But the issue is, the issues just keep unfolding. The Paper is streaming now only on Peacock. I think it's a great skill set for navigating in the doc world because you're dropping into these things. You're getting a fast pass to what's really going on. Dax, I was filming in Vegas, another project I'm doing with Netflix right now. And we were filming this guy who was smoking fentanyl and meth. And my camera, my cameraman is sober and he blew it right in his face. Oh, God. And contact high, you know, I'm okay. Freed me by a cameraman. Literally, absolutely had to take a pause, a time out. But we've been filming a lot of people that are in that state. Would we call that a hillbilly speedball? Meth and fentanyl? I think we call it like death, right? Well, apparently it's a good blend for a lot of people. Well, it's a speedball. I don't understand fentanyl then. I thought if you had just a little bit, you died. So how are people, you know, doing it and. It's insanely, insanely powerful. But you can get the right dosage. You're getting it at the hospital. They know how. No, they did it great on 60 Minutes when they had an expert on. They had this little kilo and then they had a penny and on the penny had a little amount of fentanyl and said, this is enough to kill a 10,000 pound elephant. And then the little bag that was next to it said, this is enough to kill like the village or something. You know, it's insanely powerful, but it obviously could be, as the doctor said, the doctors do dose correctly. But a lot of these people, they're even smart enough to have Narcan. A lot of these people just have it already. So if you go into a drug den house, which I've been in recently in Vegas, where there's 20 people in there doing meth and fentanyl and everything, they have Narcan. But yeah, Narcan doesn't always. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so you also dabble in the 90s. And again, there's so exciting research in you today. You did the Nine Inch Nails video. Pinion. Pinion! I did two Nine Inch Nails videos. But they were more like making short films in the early 90s. I see, oh, he directed a video. I wonder if I ever saw it. And the second it starts, I'm like, oh my God, this is one of the most indelible. You know, this is a very memorable video. It starts with these three toilets, black and white, in clearly like a New York bathroom. It's not inviting. You follow the swirl of the water down a pipe. You're going through all the pipes in the city, following it for a while. There's machinery. All of a sudden, the pipe is linked to a person in a rubber BDSM outfit. Wow. And it's just spilling out. I mean, what a visual. It was funny. In between clubs and restaurants in New York, I thought, oh, it would be fun to make some music videos. Someone came up to me on the street and said, do you want to write something for Nine Inch Nails? I didn't even know Trent Reznor. I didn't know Nine Inch Nails. And I wrote a treatment, that one. And they said, we love it. I did some drawings. And I made that short film. They gave me 10,000 bucks to make a music video. And this is when David Fincher and Mark Romanek and all these guys were doing music videos before they were big movie directors. And we were all sort of writing for the same artists, Black Crows and Nirvana and et cetera. But anyway. I thought it was really fun because the band wasn't even in the music video. So I basically could do whatever I wanted and make a short, weird, Boone Well film. So I did a second one called Help Me, I'm in Hell with a guy in a padded cell eating a steak dinner, shaved head, with just hundreds of flies flying around and landing on him and landing on his fork. And that was it. And then it goes down a little bit of a dark rabbit hole. You're almost like artsy John Waters. Oh, you know, John and I are old friends. You are? He's coming to Ojai in October. Oh, okay. John, I'm talking about you. I've known John Waters for 40 years. I love John. I interviewed John in Baltimore at his house not so long ago for a different project. But yeah, it was like making short films and making those music videos. Yeah. It was fun. Okay, so you do the hotel thing. Now it's like what next? It's conservation first, then into docks, right? Yeah. I reached a point, like I said, where I was successful with the hotel world and restaurants. And I had the resources. I had the resources to start thinking about other things and maybe things that were more important to me and maybe also things that were going on with the world at the time. And this was in the early 2000s, late 1990s, when I became more aware of the extinction crisis. Serious topic. And there was a great book by Elizabeth Colbert called The Sixth Extinction, which is the first man-made extinction ever, which is also called the Anthropocene. The current extinction we're in right now is because of us. Climate change, us. You know, the impact. On the planet, 8 billion people on planet Earth. When I was born, there was 2.5 billion people. All the things that we've done have created this extinction crisis we live in today. And so primates and turtles and tortoises are the two vertebrates that are the most threatened with extinction because over half of each group is threatened with extinction. So I said, I want to do something about that. I want to help with these turtles that I love. So I started getting involved with turtle and tortoise conservation, but conservation in general, working with different groups around the world. It's interesting because I'm watching last night with my family. Episode two, you know, of course, my wife and my children are horrified. There's some very horrific things about these very, very rare animals dying. And I'm just admitting my own shittiness. I don't have a major connection to reptiles, right? So it's not hitting me. I'm more fascinated by the culture of the dudes. And then there's a bit of footage where they're talking about like, oh, yeah, he had everything. How do you get a baby gorilla? Now, my specialty or my focus was primates when I majored in anthropology. That was my interest, right? And I'm immediately like, I'll tell you how, motherfuckers. They killed all the family members of that little baby gorilla. That's what happened. That baby gorilla represents six probably dead adults. And I was like, fuck, fuck these motherfuckers. And I was like, oh, yeah, that's just the power of that really affects me. And I've done the gorilla track, the majesty of those things. No, no. The old school way of getting menageries into zoos where you go to wherever and you shoot and kill the adult hippos and you bag the baby. You're not going to be able to get a giant hippo onto a boat or onto a boat. You're not going to be able to get a giant hippo onto a plane. And so the old way was you shoot the adult elephants and you get the baby. The gorilla, you shoot the silverbacks and you get the baby. That was what menageries did back in the day. And so it was really horrific. What are menageries? Are these traveling like animal shows? Getting a collection of animals. Oh, okay. That's called a menagerie. So to get all these animals into zoos, they would do precisely what you just said. They would shoot the adults and grab the babies. Today, that's not the case. Gorillas now are being bred in captivity. And we're not going and killing adult gorillas to get the babies. Yes. But definitely in the Diane Fossey days, that was an epidemic. Yeah. Okay, so you start first, I guess, the turtle. The turtle conservancy shameless plug. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. You donate $30 million of your own money to this. Probably more at this point. At this point, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're right now, this comes out after the show series, right? So I can, no spoiler alerts, right? Yes, right? There's only three more weeks, right? Yes, yes. No, but at the end of Monsters of God, there's sort of an optimistic ending. After a lot of dark, you know, history. Well, and yeah, just things that will be really surprising. When you see all five episodes of Monsters of God, there'll be things that you would not expect. But at the end, we successfully breed at the turtle conservancy, the rarest tortoise in the world that's never been bred before in the Western world, ever, in any zoo. And it was auspicious that when we basically finished Monsters of God, we got our first hatchling of what's called a plowshare tortoise, which is a tortoise that's functionally extinct, in the wild in Madagascar. It only comes from a tiny part of Madagascar. But we're sending our young, now we have 30 young baby plowshare tortoises back to Madagascar. So there's this kind of optimistic, really cool ending to Monsters of God that's sort of beautiful. And it was just, like I said, really auspicious because we've worked with this species for over 20 years. And I got to give a shout out to Leonardo DiCaprio right now. Let's do it. Because he's helped us with some funding and he's doing this thing right now with Bezos. That's incredible. That's helping us basically. Save a lot of really, really endangered species right now. Oh, wonderful. He should probably come on and talk about it. Leo? We should probably. He should probably just. Well, I got to just say, people always say that actors shouldn't be doing anything other than acting and they shouldn't do philanthropic things. They shouldn't have any opinions. They shouldn't have an opinion. They shouldn't be political. People always say, Sean Penn, stop, you know, doing anything but acting. Stay in your lane. And I know Sean. And I have to say, Sean, you went and met with Chapo Guzman. That was fucking unbelievable. And I felt like that when I met with some of the characters you're going to see in Monsters of God. Like, it's dangerous. And Sean, he understands, you know, drugs. And he understands that just putting Chapo in prison isn't the answer. And he went to Mexico. And I got to give Sean a lot of credit for that. But anyway, I'm sort of digressing or diverging. But I will say, just because of the community you're involved in, it's great when people speak out and do something. Whether it's political or conservation related or whatever it is. Whatever your thing is. You're pretty busy. I would imagine doing that work. And then how do we get to directing Tiger King? A friend of mine, Fisher Stevens, who won an Oscar for the film The Cove with Luis Savoyos, I was talking with Fisher about doing something on the reptile world. And there was a book called The Lizard King, written by a friend of mine, Brian Christie. And I said, Fisher, read this book. It's a great story. And we met at the Bowery Hotel at JAMA one day for lunch. And he said, I read the book. It's really good. But how do you make this documentary without getting killed? And that kind of discussed. Discouraged me. Because there's a lot of scary people in this story. My favorite character of the whole thing is Mario. Mario. Well, wait until you meet Anson Wong in Malaysia, who's the kingpin. Yes. The Pablo Escobar of the, you know. Yeah. But anyway, I was discouraged. That was in like 2012. And then Fisher did a film with Leonardo DiCaprio called Before the Flood about climate change. And he was trying to sell it to CNN. And CNN passed. And then Fisher goes, well, you know, my friend Eric Goode has this footage of this weird guy, Joe Exotic. And then I did a CNN pilot. They were interested in that. Really quick, how had you met Joe? I just started filming reptile people in the beginning with these guys, the Safdie brothers that you may know. Josh Safdie, who just was up for an Oscar with the Party Supreme. And he's a producer on Monster. Yeah. So 12 years ago, we started filming in South Florida. We were filming some reptile people, Mario, Josh and I, and his brother. And one day, a guy drove in with a snow leopard in his van. And we were like, wait a minute. You can just buy a snow leopard. So that got me focused on big cats. I got off reptiles. The CNN thing didn't work. Jeff Zucker, who was running CNN at the time, didn't want another old Anthony Bourdain. Anthony Bourdain was still alive. So our CNN pilot didn't work, which was about our relationship with animals. Anyway, I got into Tiger King accidentally because I just fell into it. You followed that snow leopard. Yeah, I was really doing a story about reptiles. Tiger King got in the way. Jim Casey got in the way finally. I finished Monsters of God. But yeah, Joe, it was a lot of fun. And Oklahoma was a lot of fun for me. So this is my question about Tiger King. I'm not conflicted. I don't mind loving bad people. I think I grew up with a lot of bad people that I love, right? So I am at both times judgmental, obviously, of Joe Exotic's terrible treatment of animals. And I don't think people should have any of these animals. But also, I am very attracted to him. He's a very compelling person. And I'm attracted to him, right? I do wonder what your tension is when you're making these. Do you fall in love with some of these people that obviously you condemn their behavior, but do you fall a little bit in love with them? Yeah, there's a lot of lovable things about Joe Exotic. And, you know, all of us have our good parts and bad parts. He had some really bad parts as well. I think him being gay really helped me. That's a rough road in Oklahoma where he grew up. And he's kind of twisted now because of. That gay extreme narcissism was really interesting with him. But, you know, I think what I'm interested in is often we think about. New York, L.A., London, Paris, whatever. These are the places where everything's happening. And the truth is, in flyover states, Middle America, places that you don't think anything interesting is happening. In fact, there's a lot of interesting, weird shit going on. And if you start turning over the rocks and looking, you find these really interesting characters. And you mentioned John Waters, or you think of Errol Morris and Vernon, Florida, a really great film he did in the panhandle of Florida. Or you think of Todd Solons, another director who. kind of looked at that landscape. He did that film, "Welcome to the Dollhouse." But I'm really interested in worlds that aren't so obvious to all of us. So Joe Exotic wasn't really what people were thinking about. Same with monkey moms. Who knew that there were all these monkey moms across the country? Women that need and want to have a baby forever, and it becomes a monkey. And so, yes, back to what you said earlier. I think that it's the characters that are really important. But in the end, watching these stories, the silver lining is, of course, We do something. to prevent having a chimpanzee incarcerated in a basement in solitary confinement when they are complex social animals and you know about primates. You know, can we do something about that? Can we make change with people keeping 200 tigers in a zoo and basically killing off the adults because they are expensive to keep because you have to feed them a lot of fresh meat? You walked the line so well. Tiger King got a lot of criticism, but at the end of it, what's this act that was passed? The Big Cat? Big Cat Public Safety Act, which banned people from having big cats in the private sector. Wow. And creating big cat puppy mills. Yeah. Yeah, that's incredible. And so this movie that had its critics did get legislation passed and changed. I never thought in a million years Tiger King would be what it was. Well, no one on the planet. 39 million people watched it in the first 10 days. Yeah, but who could have imagined that COVID hit right when it hit? It was a good time. I had a captive audience watching Captain Tigers. When you have something like that, there's always going to be criticism and jealousy and all these kind of things happen, but in the end of the day, it did change a really important piece of legislation, or that legislation was passed to stop this abuse of tigers and big cats, lions, and jaguars, et cetera. And we also donated money to tiger conservation in India, and that's why I was in Kerala not so long ago. A lot of money. So there was a lot of things that I think came from that. And of course, more importantly, and it's a cliche to say this, but you don't want to make films that just preach to the converted, right? Because why make a film that, and everyone already knows the issue, and I'm going to show it to a small group of people, and we can talk about tigers. You need to cast a wide net and obviously preach to the unconverted. And I think Tiger King did that to some extent. That's why I think you're a very special face of conservation because I don't find you to be preachy or saccharine or pretentious or sanctimonious. And that is what's off-putting about a lot of these movements. We need a lot more, I think, level centrist-y people attacking these issues because the other thing is, other mouthpieces are just very polarizing. Yeah, for sure. And I was on a call yesterday with someone from an animal rights group that wants me to speak, do a keynote at a big animal rights conference that's going to take place actually in Mexico City. And I was saying to them, listen, you're not going to want me speaking because I'm not as polarized as you guys. I'm more of an animal welfare person. I kind of walk the line of trying to get everyone together. I work in a lot of red states. Thank God. We need that. Yeah, but I have to talk. I have to talk to everybody. And if I walked in and just was like, I hate what you do. Don't do what you're doing. You're fucked up. You're morally repugnant. No one's going to talk to me. Exactly. Because listen, I'm watching Monsters of God and it's like, again, what they're doing is terrible, clearly. But I'm also seeing a story of manhood unfold too. I'm seeing Tommy who starts this reptile pet shop and all of a sudden bikers are hanging out there. And all of a sudden he's getting invited with the big boys to biker stuff. And he's feeling like a man. And a lot of these guys, it was their past. It was their pathway to feel like a man that the nerdy guy who reaches out to Tommy, the reptile dude, and he even says in your doc, he's like, that's the second time I had sex on that trip. I'm also quite empathetic to like this masculinity journey that kind of directionless men are feeling and whoever embraced them. Yeah, they ran towards the motorcycle gang and they ran towards the drug dealers because they were invited. And so there's a lot of stories being told and I'm very, very empathetic and sympathetic to those men and their weirdness. It's a weird journey of trying to be a man. There's a lot of sadness I have for them. Yeah, nothing is black and white. When you continue with the series, you'll start to see that a lot of best intentions, a lot of laws that are out there about what you can keep in this country, pythons or this or that, a lot of them actually don't work. So there's a lot of unintended consequences from best intentions. The Endangered Species Act doesn't fit all. So there's species right now on the endangered species list. There's species that should not be. There's species that should be added on. They need to be. But U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in this country is understaffed, undermanned. They're trying the best they can, but it needs to be better. The zoos need to be better. I've gotten a lot of criticism from Monsters of God, from the zoo community, that I showed some of the skeletons in the closets that the zoos have been responsible for. You know, the Bronx Zoo in 19, I don't know, 15, 20, had a human being in a cage in the ape house called Audubon. They had a human. A guy that was captured in West Africa, you know, sort of a small indigenous pygmy with these teeth that were carved like shark's teeth, and they put him in a cage in the ape house at the Bronx Zoo. There were people that were kept in zoological institutions on exhibit in Europe. There were Native Americans in tents at the Lincoln Park Zoo in Chicago in the 50s. So we've exploited humans and animals, and zoos have a long history, but we as a culture have a long history that isn't very good when you look back. Yeah. Women couldn't vote and gay rights, and you mention all these things. So anyway, zoos have evolved, and they need to get better even still. But we show some of the skeletons in the closets, but not just with zoos. We also show law enforcement's not perfect in this story, and you'll see something really revealing in the fifth episode. And so the conclusion at the end of Monsters of God is we're all complicit. There isn't necessarily one clear bad guy. But let's walk through it a little bit, because I think a lot of people will have not yet started Monsters of God. So in a nutshell, we meet these two guys who are pretty much pretty infamous reptile traders, and they're mostly in the 80s, right? Yeah, yeah. Tom Crutchfield and Hank Mould. Right. And Hank, he's a very specific archetype, and he's a very intelligent guy. And by my non-expert judgment, he seems a little sociopathic. No, no, for sure. So Hank kind of starts this thing, right? He publishes this list, and you can buy these different reptiles, and some of them are super rare. And then some of them become endangered, which ups the value enormously, and he's willing to travel the world and gather these things. Most of his heavy-paying clients are zoos. The San Diego Zoo, the Detroit Zoo. So we're in a murky territory, right? These zoos want these animals, and who's going to go get them? The zoo doesn't have anybody to go do that, and so this guy fills this niche, and he starts making a lot of money, and he's now hiring people, and this Tommy guy's fascinated, and he then gets into it. And so that's kind of working out, and then what happens, though, to Hank? How does he go to prison? There's a shipment that comes in from Southeast Asia, a big shipment, and the customs agents at the time, it's sort of before U.S. Fish and Wildlife was really doing this stuff, you know, were, like, suspicious of that shipment. And then ultimately, one thing led to another. It was illegal animals coming in. A law had just been passed called the Endangered Species Act, and another law that was called CITES, the Convention of International Trade and Endangered Species. They both happened around the same time. So he was in trouble, and he did some time for bringing in animals without getting, obviously, permission, and those laws were, in fact, that went into effect in 1973. So Hank started a little earlier, before the '80s, and then Tommy came into play in the early '80s. So when Hank goes to prison, Tommy just picks up, basically, his price list. Now he's the Hank, and Hank hates him for it. So now we have the Carol fucking basket and Joe Exotic war, right? Which I don't know how you keep stumbling into these crazy feuds, but this is one of them, and so they kind of hate each other, and then Tommy becomes incredibly successful, and it's funny 'cause he just starts doing the exact same thing Hank did, and now he kind of gets rich, relatively rich in his world. - Yeah, yeah. - So that's simmering so far. That's episode one's kind of simmering. - Then Hank gets revenge on Tommy and puts Tommy in prison for the Fiji Island iguanas, and then episode two, yeah. - So episode two, we meet Ray Van Nostrand and Mario. Tell me about those two guys. Tell us about those two guys for a second. - Mario was born in Cuba. His father was in the Bay of Pigs and worked for the CIA. - CIA operative. - They migrate to South Florida when he's very young. Mario has this affinity and love of animals that his family doesn't embrace, and of course, you do what your family says no to, and he gets into the animal business, but he also starts to realize that the skills that his father learned in Cuba from the US government, what do you do with those skills? And they became very valuable. - He's Miami cooking cowboys, had been in the Bay of Pigs. - And they hated John F. Kennedy at that time 'cause he didn't go through with what he had promised, and the US backed out and left these guys high and dry. Anyway, they turned that skill into smuggling drugs. And so Mario was part of that culture. His father obviously had those skills. In Little Havana, they own a jewelry store where everyone would hang out, and drug dealers like jewelry, as you see in the show. And Mario got into both bringing in animals, parrots, monkeys, snakes, and drugs, cocaine and marijuana mostly. And ultimately, at the time, Janet Reno was, I think, the district attorney of Florida before she went up to D.C., and they basically were looking at the big drug kingpins in Florida. Mario and his father were part of a group that was bringing in tens of millions of dollars worth of drugs. They targeted him, and he got away a few times, and then he made a fatal mistake of killing an undercover informant, tried to bury him, but in South Florida, all you hit is coral, you can't dig, so they burned the body. And that's what started everything. And ultimately, Mario did get caught, sentenced to 100 years in prison. And Mario's life, the footage of this guy's life in the '80s, before he gets arrested, he has this compound that probably would only be rivaled by Pablo Escobar's town in fucking Medellin. - Or Scarface. - Yes. He's got lions and tigers at his house, and he's got monkeys running around, and he's got all these crazy reptiles, and he even says, - It says in this doc, My addiction is animals. I sold drugs to fuel my addiction for animals. And you're talking to him in this doc? Ultimately, he's warned the whole doc, right? He's talking to this DA agent. He's like, just even be careful the way you're talking. And every one he interviews about Mario, a husband will walk in and be like, hon, don't say more about that. It's clear from the beginning, no one wants him to talk about Mario at all. He's still very dangerous. The DA guy said he's the only person I still fear. Don't even talk about him. And Eric goes to his fucking house and sits with him. You know what's funny about, I don't know anything about profiling and law enforcement, but I was told to call his lobbyists in D.C. These guys have lobbyists to make sure they can keep their animals off their roadside zoo. I called this guy, he had an Italian name, Frank something, Perillo or something. And he said to me, there's a hundred reasons why you shouldn't talk to Mario. And he listed some of them. I can't think of any reason why this would be positive for Mario. So I struck out, and then I finally ambushed Mario one day and just went in there and got my foot in the door. The first thing he said to me, and I was with Josh Shafty, actually, the first time we went in with Mario and Josh, he put on these spy glasses that were so obvious, like, wow, Mario was showing us why that was filming. Of course, in the end, the footage didn't even work. But the next day we went, Josh goes, oh, fuck, Eric, I got to wear the glasses for continuity. He's going to think it's weird if I don't have the glasses. So he had to put the glasses on again, and they're not even working. Josh is, like, wearing these glasses. But Mario, it was almost like the cliché of that film, Analyze This, with the mafia guys and what's his name, Place the Shrink. Billy Crystal. Billy Crystal. It was almost like that in real life. Mario, first time I went there, I kid you not, because maybe we're similar age and I'm not really a journalist, I had nightclubs. He confided in me, with me, the first day. And he says to me, you know, I go to a therapist once a week or twice a week, but really, I'm screwing this girl that works for me. I go to a motel down the street. And his wife's standing right over there. But he confides in me, and we have this sort of simpatico situation. He would tell me the most intimate things, and we got on this level that was so unbelievable, way beyond just someone coming in and filming. It was almost cathartic for Mario to have someone to talk to, and there was a certain sadness with Mario. So I had this very mixed feeling about Mario to this day. There's honor among thieves, and he has this certain moral code that's really unbelievable. He has pride. He has principles. It's really interesting. Yeah, yeah. Well, all the guys, one guy's like, I'll steal the animals, but I don't want to do guns. I'll do the drugs, but I won't, you know, they all kind of- Everyone has their boundaries and limits so that they feel okay doing it. He saw episode two, though, and at first he was pissed, because he was like, I didn't ship cocaine in with a cobra. And we were like, Mario, we're not really saying you necessarily did it, but people did. And then at the end of the show, he goes, oh, I loved the sex scenes. I love that I'm still such as, you know, such a dude, a hero, and he loved that. Yes, of course. Loved that. And also, Monica, you're watching, it's like, he got sentenced to 100 years. He's out in 12. This is a big mystery. It's one of the only things he doesn't want to talk about. Yeah. He says something very innocuous, like, you know, sometimes the government needs people who- So you get the sense that they've let him out to do this. I don't know. Who knows what happened? No, that's crazy how you can get out of prison if you have information. Yeah. Yeah. I'm always fascinated, like, these guys have insane amounts of money, right? Did you ever read Killing Pablo, that great- No, no. I'm terribly illiterate, but keep going. If you're ever gonna read a book, that would be the one. You know, these guys, they're burying money, they forget about it, it rots. Their big problem is the cash, they couldn't ever convert it. And you always wonder when these guys go away, it's like, well, surely they had some somewhere. And when I at least see your doc, I'm like, yeah, somehow that guy still has, he's still in a big compound driving a G6. It's so interesting, 'cause when I had nightclubs in the '80s, it was cash. There was no credit cards. Yeah. It was a cash business. I remember having so much cash at a certain point in my life. Yeah. They didn't have cash. They didn't have cash machines back then, and counting millions of dollars in cash is so tedious. Yeah. And Mario used to tell me, again, confiding with me, like, you know, $10 million in cash, and to count it and to figure out where you put it. Yeah. And, you know, back in those days, you're trying to get banks to take, you know- Yeah, you can't really use it. I buried some cash one time. It was the biggest mistake of my life. Lost? I came back eight years later, and it turned into mud. I never wanna touch cash again in my life, even though it's so fun to have cash. Yeah. But when you're making that much money- When you're making that much cash, it's a liability. This is Pablo. It's like he had no problem getting the cocaine in and out of places, but he couldn't do anything with his fucking cash. It's this weird- Yeah. Paradoxical- You know, South Florida in the '80s and '90s really was like that, by the way. The only time in my life I ever was shot at, randomly shot at with guns, was in Florida, in Miami, in 1993 or something. I was going to a nightclub at night in a rented minivan with some friends. We didn't have cell phones. We got lost. We were trying to call- Fab Five Freddy, who was telling us to go to some club in New York. "Freddy, where's the fucking club?" I say to one of the girls I was with, "Go and call at this phone booth." And the next thing I knew, these two guys were walking at night towards us and started shooting at our van. Blew out the back window, blew out the side window, and I suddenly- I was like, "Listen, you guys, we're going home." Went back to the hotel. I had long hair back then. I woke up in the morning with all that little glass ice cubes from the- Yeah. You know, in my hair and everywhere. But South Florida was like the wild, wild west. People were shooting everybody. The emergency rooms were insane. We get support from Instagram teen accounts. So, we talk a lot on this show about how the world is different now than when we were growing up. And one of the biggest differences is obviously social media. And I think a lot of people wonder, "Okay, what's actually being done to make it safer for teenagers?" Which is a fair question. Yeah, so Instagram has got something called a child protection service. And the child protection service is like an app. It's an app for parents to use. It's an app for children to use. It's an app for adults to use. It's an app for kids to use. Maybe if it comes off bad, I still want to go to the battery. But in all your docs, we're following people and we're like, these people are crazy. But you're a little crazy. Like, you are a little crazy to be going to these people, to put yourself in these positions. The danger is so high. And do you get, like, off on it? What's the draw to the danger? The honest answer is I'm not, like, some tough guy by any stretch. And the honest answer is it's like back to Sean Penn meeting Chapo Guzman in Mexico. Bad guys kill people for a reason. Drug routes are a big deal, and they kill over drug routes. They kill if you stole their drugs or whatever. I'm walking in, I've done nothing to these people. So I'm not really worried about someone coming and killing me unless I wrong them. Where it gets scary isn't when you go in and first meet these folks. People don't just start killing you unless there's real reasons. And so it's. It's when they've watched the show. Of course! And then Mario sees, oh, you passed a law that means I can't have my tigers anymore. I need my tigers to make a living at my zoo. Or they feel used. So that's when I've talked to law enforcement and people about, are the people that are really threatening me online over and over the ones to be careful with? No. It's the ones that never say anything. I'd be stupid, and I'm probably stupid even saying this right now, but, yeah, it's more later down the road when you impact their lives. Sure, that's. Not when you walk in the door and are interviewing them. Right. 'Cause they don't know. They're not serial killers. They don't get off on just murdering people. That's not the incentive. I'm not interviewing and talking around with serial killers. Yeah. Back to the crazy part is, like, I often say this about when I was smoking crack, which is, like, a lot of it's crack. It's great, but a lot of it's going downtown. I have to interact with this 17-year-old dude who's got a handgun, and we got to go into this house. Like, that is very dopamine rich. Yeah. It's half of what's. What's going on and the addiction to it. Yeah, of course. That's kind of what I wonder. Like, when you're walking up to the door to ring the doorbell. And everyone's told you, "Do not go near this guy." Is it a high? I mean, it's a high to get in and then get that comfort where you realize you did it. -Yeah. -It's nerve-wracking getting to that point of ringing that doorbell. Once you're in and you have the fluency that takes place, whether it's drugs or whether it's my knowledge or reptiles, and they realize you're one of them, takes one to know one, then you get a comfort. But here, sure, it's a high to get the access. Because documentaries, at least the ones I make, it's all about access. And so people think, "Oh, I'm gonna go out and make a doc." Good luck getting to that person. It's not so easy. Okay, so I can't wait to watch the next episodes because I would have begged for you to let me join you meeting Mario, right? Like, that's a no-brainer for me. The person that I probably don't ever wish to meet nor be in his world would be Anson Wong. Anson Wong is kind of this. This mythical guy, sort of the Pablo Escobar of the wildlife trade. He's in Malaysia, Penang. He has been operating for 30, 40 years, at least. He used to come to the United States and be able to go to the Bronx Zoo and all over the country, and people knew him. Tom Schultz at the San Diego Zoo knew him personally, the curator of reptiles at the San Diego Zoo. So Anson Wong had access to everybody until he was wanted for smuggling into the zoo. Then he became bad guy number one in the wildlife trade. He became this sort of mythical figure. He was not allowed back in the country, or he'd get arrested. Ultimately, he was arrested. They managed to get him, which happens in the story. He did one of the longest sentences for a wildlife crime ever in the '90s. I think he did seven or eight years in prison, which was a big deal back then. But Anson Wong, the government spent millions and millions of dollars to get him, five-year undercover operation to get Anson Wong. They finally did. He was released, went back to Malaysia, never to return to the U.S., not allowed to. He got arrested again in Malaysia for smuggling reptiles, which was really incredible, 'cause he had connections to the royal family. You know, he had high-level connections. Getting him and knowing who he was, I had pretty good access in the animal world, and know people, and I knew people that knew him. And I would try to get inroads to Anson Wong in a number of ways and failed. Ultimately, COVID became a problem. I couldn't travel to Malaysia when I was filming this. When COVID broke, I literally, literally just went there. I couldn't get to him, and I had these fixers in Malaysia that I was trying to use to get access to Anson Wong. And they kept saying, "Oh, you know, we know his cousin, his brother, this person." When I finally got to Penang in Malaysia, I realized, oh, they never really even wanted to reach him 'cause they were scared to death. And so when I said to them, "Hey, can you call Anson?" I got his phone number with a Malaysian number 'cause he's not responding to a U.S. number. They were like, "We're not calling Anson Wong for you." And then I realized, okay, -I'm scared of this guy. -Yeah. So I just kept calling and calling and calling. And one day, you know, I was in a weird place in Malaysia, and he answered the phone, and then I got access to Anson. -Wow. -But, yeah, it was scary. And he says something in jest when we were driving one time about how his driver was killed. And he says it in such a nonchalant way 'cause his driver turned on him, and he obviously made sure his driver isn't with us anymore. -Yeah. -So, you know, he's a heavy guy. Well, man, I just think you've made, like, three of my top. -Oh, my God. -Ten favorite documentaries of all time. -Jim. -Jim. We were obsessed with Jim Crazy. We actually, just so you know, again, how your hotel affected us. -Yeah. -Tell Eric. You gave us a gift. Tonka is a huge part of our lives. We talked about Tonka nonstop on the show. And mainly, just, like, we loved him, and you know how he would throw poop at his cage. He'd be like, "Clean it up!" And he'd try, but it made it worse. -We were obsessed with that part. -We were. -And then. -Somebody had a little. Okay, there was an incident. There was an unauthorized evacuation incident by me. -That's all I'll say. -While driving a car. -Okay, well. -That's important. Yes, that's important. It was a bad situation. And Monica didn't want to actually say what she did. Yeah, I was so demoralized, but I had to share, right? I had to tell Dak, and then I also, I guess, had to tell everyone. I was like, "I'm an animal. I'm Tonka." Like, I felt like him. Just, like, disgusting, just an animal. Just animals. I'm Tonka. So now if anyone poops in their pants, we say they Tonka'd. And the listeners know. Like, people write in the comments, like, "I fucking Tonka'd at work." -So now it's become a verb. -It's a verb. For shitting your pants, and I just want you to know. Well, we just want to thank you for giving us that. Yeah, we do want to thank you. It's the cutest way to say it. I couldn't start Chimp Crazy because that's my obsession, right, is primates. I knew I couldn't police myself. I've gone too hard. Some people do have, they're like, "I can't watch it." "I can't watch those because I love animals too much." It's like, then you should watch them, I think, even more. Well, we try to not show too much suffering or battering of animals. 'Cause otherwise people turn the channel. We try to keep a balance, but if we go too into that realm, and we could, we don't, and we try to keep it fun, -even though there's serious shit going on. -Yeah, you do. Just 'cause people don't have the stomach to watch brutality. I would say because I know so much about them, this weirdly parallels Monica and I have talked about this several times. Us addicts in recovery, we have a very specific way that we feel and react to when other addicts die. And for the non-addicts, it's this crazy heartbreak. And then, sadly, and this isn't nice, but for us, it helps confirm, "That's right, man. That's what happens when you're not in the past." So for us, it's weirdly a little bit of like-- -It's a reminder. -It's a reminder. And it's a moment of gratitude. And it's a moment of like, "Oh, right. That's right, man. And thank you for that reminder." 'Cause that's where we end up. We're dead, institutionalized, or incarcerated. And so when it happens, it's like, "Check." We have a different feeling about it. I would say in the same way when I was in Afghanistan and, you know, I watched the soldiers deal with people that were getting killed around them. It's like, you see it a bunch of times, and certain predictable patterns happen, and there's a way, and it's just kind of like, "Yeah, and that's--" And when you light a cigarette, that happens. You know, it's weirdly comforting to go, "Right, that's how it works." I don't know. But similarly, from the second it started, I'm like, "Well, I know where this goes. I know what happens." I don't know what happens when a male chimpanzee gets fertile. What a lot of people don't know, when we were doing Chimp Crazy, I was communicating with some of the world's top primatologists about Taka. Craig Stanford, who's here at USC, and a good friend of mine who's actually in Madagascar right now working with me, Russell Mittermeier, I don't know if you know him. Now that we don't have Jane Goodall with us anymore, bless her heart, Russell Mittermeier has described more species of lemurs than anyone in the world in recent times. And so, anyway, I was communicating with them about this, this chimp, and asking them, you know, should I do something now, or is Taka okay, or can I wait? And the reason I waited, a lot of people don't know this, is 'cause I thought Tanya Haddix, who's now in prison, would lead me to more chimps, which she ultimately did. It's sort of like drugs. You want to just get the little guy with five ounces of cocaine. I wanted to get the source, and so I kept waiting. But a lot of people thought, "Oh, I'm exploiting her. I'm not doing anything about Taka in the cage." But, of course, we were very sensitive to Taka's well-being when we were doing -Chimp Crazy. -Yeah. The craziest part of that entire doc is when those knuckleheads fucking drag that cage up the stairs at a holiday. Like, a lot of times, when you look back on your addiction, like, the times you go, "This is the most absurd I ever got." It's like, if they're looking at their weird addiction, it's like the time they drug a fucking chimp upstairs in a cage at a holiday. I'm like, they must go, "How did I end up in this situation?" Keeping these animals and hoarding and the obsession. And, by the way, I like the word "obsession." I don't think being I think you wake up in the morning, you have something to do. People that have no interest, I work with them. about. But when it goes into addiction mode, addiction isn't only drugs, alcohol, you know, sex addiction, gambling. It's also shopaholics. And in this case, it's wanting these animals so badly that you'll do anything and ruin your life. And what happened to Tanya after Chimp Crazy wrapped, you know, she went and got another chimp in her basement and now she's in prison for it. And I really worked with her after Chimp Crazy, trying to counsel her, help her to sort of just have some contrition. Don't keep doing the same thing. The owner of Travis tried to get a baby monkey. Well, she did. She did. She did get another chimp. I mean, how on earth? It's so deep. I mean, that's like the sadness of it. It's really trying to fill a void. Yeah, for sure. Yes. And whether it's like she was never loved, it's like, I'm the chimp lady. Look at me. It gives you some kind of self-worth. Purpose, yes. Purpose, validation. But another day, if you come up to Ojai, we can trade Crazy. Crazy drug stories because drug addiction, the shit you do when you just said that, oh my God, the shit you do. Yeah. Like the stuff I've done, crawling on the floor, trying to get the crumbs or trying to snort the floor or whatever, the stuff you do. We can go down a drug rabbit hole, but it is crazy. But the stuff you do, even these animal people, they're addicted. Of course. You know, every using dream I have is the exact same. I've had over the last 22 years, many, many using dreams about cocaine and all of it involves me getting the coke out of the carpet. And there's so much. There's so much coke in lint and carpet in the coke. And I'm deciding, do I snort all the lint? I have those too. Why do we still have those dreams? I don't know. But why? And they're panicking dreams. Yes. Yes. I'm like, it's there, but I can't get it. But I can't get it. But why still do we have those dreams? Yes. Yes. Those are indelible. Yes. I want to shake those dreams. Every using dream is that dream. I wish my using dreams were about getting a rare tortoise or like, you know, I used to have basketball dreams, hoop dreams of like me being able to do things like Michael Jordan. The drug dreams. It's hard to shake those. But maybe it's good for you. It's like because then when you wake up, you're like, oh, I'm so glad I'm not doing that. Oh, my God. Waking up is the best part of that dream. The dream dash is said waking up. You're like, oh, my God. Thank God. Because they're really intense. Yeah, they are. I'm so glad I agreed to interview a director. This was fantastic. Oh, Eric, I love meeting. I don't know what I am. I just fell into it. I'm the biggest dilettante ever. No, I think you're. Anything. I can't wait for you to keep doing more of these because they're really important, I think, but also so entertaining. I have a really crazy one that we're just finishing. It's three episodes. You'll love it. Oh, I can't wait. I probably have the same feeling about you as I have about us. It's like, I don't know, we're eleven hundred in or twelve hundred in. I keep thinking, why are we going to run out of famous people? And then someone sits down. I guess there's another famous person. When I watch your shit, I'm like, what's left? A guy with a dolphin he's making love to. Oh, that's not so bad. We know about those guys. Yeah, the scientists. Well, that yeah, there's people that have fallen in love with the horse, live with their horse, fall in love with their dolphin. That's more of an A&E show. Fatal attraction. You're really good. Both of you do really work well together. It's really cool. Yeah, thank you. Sorry, I hog so much of the oxygen. No, that's why you're here. It's to take up the oxygen. If you haven't watched Monsters of God, you must. I know you've already seen Tiger King and Chimp Crazy, of course, is great. You're so talented. And if you haven't, I certainly hope you'll come back. This was so fun. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Thank you. He is an armchair expert, but he makes mistakes all the time. Thank God Monica's here. She's got to let him have the facts. I would like to officially introduce you to a new friend of the studio. His name is Peter. Peter loves knowledge. And Peter's a crow. Okay. And Lincoln made this. It's beautiful. Isn't it great? Yes. Doesn't Peter look friendly? Somehow my kids, when they draw pictures, I don't know how it happens, but they're able to, they always look friendly. Yeah. Right? Doesn't he look like a particularly friendly crow? Yeah, he's really cute. I can't really see him now. You can't see him here. Now your head. Oh, now my head is there. Yeah. But he, you can tell he has really pretty feathers. Uh-huh. Yeah. And he's holding cherries. Yeah. She's very good at drawing. It's kind of crazy how good she is at drawing. She did a glass the other day, like a pencil drawing of a glass, like a pint glass. Oh, nice. And I'm like, I don't, how did you get all like, you know, it's 3D. She's really good. And she just lets it rip. It's cool. Oh, there's a really funny thing happening. Do you know Delta's new life path? Well, I know she was learning sign language yesterday. Yeah. So on her own instigation, she said, I'd like to learn sign language. And Kristen through Disney, of course, as an artist, she said, I'd like to learn sign language. And an employee of Disney, she knew that Disney had this project where they had used a lot of ASL consultants. So she reached out to that production, found this teacher. He came over. He's so sweet. Yeah. Um, she's learning at the craziest speed. I can't even, he is like, this is bonkers. He gave her a card on like maybe their fourth session. And it said, um, Delta, welcome to the ASL community. We've been expecting you. Oh, isn't that so sweet? That's really sweet. So she's bonkers good at it. I can, but she knows like 300 signs already. I have a question about her teacher. Yes. Um, is he deaf? He's deaf. Okay. Okay. Which became its own funny hijinks. Cause when he very first came to the door, Kristen kind of opened it and she was in the middle of 19 things and she has her back to him. She's like, oh yeah, come in here. You can sit over here. And she's realized she's just giving this whole stream of things. And then she just hears a noise come from the door and she's like, of course, why wouldn't have I assumed he was deaf? So then she turned around, you know, made it very clear what she was saying and he can read lips. Great. I've talked to him. I know. So yeah, yesterday I walked in the house during the lesson cause I wanted to say hi to the kids. And, um, I, I then didn't know what to do. Right. You know, you just have to look directly at him and like speak, don't mumble your words. I was like, is it rude for me to be trying to talk to someone who like, I don't know if he can read. Right. But he can. He can. Um, so at any rate, it's just this bizarre. I mean, I've really not seen anyone learn something so quickly. I'm like, wow, this is fucking. And by the way, before this, and I think the reason she wanted to learn ASL is she loves mime. I can't stand it. She'll be in bed and she wants to like mime what she needs. And I'm like, I like charades. Yeah. Like some version of, and then in some weird way, her and Kristen have worked together for, you know, a lot of hand signals that they just made up. So she just really wants to communicate that way. Yeah. So, um, we're driving in the car the other day and, um, she's just talking about how much she loves it. And I'm like, yeah, maybe you should do something career wise with it, you know? And then we're talking about the different things you could do. Like, you know, you can sign at events, you can sign, you know, DTF, you could sign on the news. And then her other thing is she wants to be a therapist. So then we put it together. And so now her new dream in life is to be an ASL therapist for kids. Great. And she told her teacher this, and he said, that would be so great. There's not a lot of therapists who can sign. I think that would be amazing. That's so sweet. Yeah. Great job. I was such a piece of shit. Like I want to glory at her age. I want to be evil Knievel or, you know, like I want it to be some kind of world renowned hero. Yeah. And she wants to do sign language therapy for children. Well, I hope she does. Yeah. Cause she'll be great at that. But anyways, yeah, they're both, it's so fun to watch them both have these crazy skills. Yeah. That's so awesome. Your sister taught them sign language both when they were little. Yeah. Her and Kristen really learned sign language and they could talk to the babies. I learned like this. I brought this up in my defense yesterday. Cause I said, I'm scared. I'm not going to be able to communicate with you guys. Like you, Kristen's also learning that pretty quick and they're talking a lot. And I'm like, I'm, I'm afraid I'm going to be like left out. Yeah. And then Kristen said, well, you could learn. And I was like, I, I mean, I don't think I can, I'm not trying to be lazy about it. I'm not lazy, but remember we, I put a lot of effort into learning when they were kids and I knew like five things, you know, more and water and stuff. Yeah. You knew some, you picked it up about as good as I did. No, by the way, no, I came in when everyone had already learned and I was like, okay, I guess this ship is happening. Um, but yeah, so maybe their brains are like, since they've been doing it since they were really little, maybe they're more like adept. Yeah. Um, and if I were listening to this and I didn't have kids and I was in my twenties, I'd be like, why did you teach her? Why wouldn't you try to teach her that? I mean, parents, right. So this is the thing that I doubt if you had kids, you wouldn't know about, which is like, they can't, they're not going to develop their speech for a long time, but they can learn signs much quicker. And it, it alleviates so much of their frustration when they're babies, when they want to tell you they want water, but they don't know how to ask for it. And they can, or they want more of something or no more all done. Yeah. All done is make you sad. Remember Kristen took Lincoln to universal and they were on the tram and they, she didn't realize it went through like, you know, like a gorilla, like a King Kong exhibit. Yeah. And she was just a baby and she was doing all done. Yeah. - Hmm. - But yeah, I mean, I, I kind of, maybe this is an excuse, but I think it's in the, it's in like the foreign language department for me, you know, as you know, I had to take it at like four, three different college, three, three different colleges to pass. Yes. We've discussed this. We both, I had to struggle. I've taken eight. I took eight. I took four years of in high school and eight. Four in college? Four semesters. Semesters? Or eight semesters. Four quarters? I had to do a lot. For the theater department, they required you to do a lot of foreign language, which like, okay, I guess. Anyway, I was very bad at it. I was very bad at speaking. I was good at reading it. Okay. And I could write it, like, like make sentences. Yeah. Because I got to choose the words to put in. Yeah. But the communication, I just could not do. This will not surprise you, but I was okay by the end at saying some stuff. But once people were speaking to me in Spanish, I was like, I don't know. I don't know what they're saying. It sounds so fast. Yeah. I can't even grab it. It is so fast. I also think I'm just uniquely bad at that. Like, I was telling Ryan, we were in Nashville for Labor Day. Uh-huh. And my very favorite song of all time, which is, this is the play slash naive melody by Talking Heads. Uh-huh. I have listened to this song more than any other song in the 10,000 range. There's been weeks where it was on repeat. I don't know one word of that song. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, how could this be? Like, I can't hear what he is saying. Yeah, same. I have, we, again, we have discussed this. Yeah, we know this. We have holes in that part of our brains. Weaknesses. That's a big weakness. Yeah. Knowings, lyrics, and language. And I do think they're in the same space in the brain. I've just decided that. I think they are, too. And it makes sense that they would be. Yeah. Yeah, symbols, converting symbols into whatever. Yeah, it's like an auditory. English is rough. I'm not good at auditory because you like audiobook. Like, you retain audiobooks. Yeah, I retain whatever I do here. Yeah. Also, I'm great at, like, rap lyrics and country song lyrics. If they talk slowly. Right. I can get it, and then it's in there pretty deep. Huh. Yeah. I got to tell you, we had the greatest four days in Nashville. Tell me. It was crazy hot, too. I just keep going from heat bubble to heat bubble. It's hot. All summer I did it, and now. It's hot. It's hot. It's hot. I just did it. It was blazing hot there. It was like 98, and you know the humidity. But we were on the boat mostly the whole time, and what I discovered, my pontoon bow, I was swimming under it early part of summer this year, and I could see I had LED light strips under the deck of the pontoon. But I don't know where any buttons are for this thing. Thank goodness Ken Kennedy was visiting, and he likes nothing more than going through the menu of a screen. Yeah. And lo and behold, he figured out, I have disco lights on my pontoon bow. Oh, that's fun. So now we're in a habit of going swimming at night with the disco lights on and loud music. Oh, is it fun. And you're floating in your dipe, which is an upside down life jacket, and it was just boating after boating. But the thing that I most want to talk about, do you have a favorite breakfast spot in America? In America. Because, like, I have so many. I have so many favorite lunch spots and dinner spots, but I have only one favorite prior to this breakfast spot. It's in New York, Bubby's. You ever been to Bubby's? Yes, I've been to Bubby's many times. Love it. Yeah. Love it. I don't, I mean, I guess I don't know. Are you about to say Waffle House? No, that's fine. Oh, I do love Waffle House. I love Waffle House. It is, it's nostalgic. It is. It's fun. It's damn affordable. Hash browns. Yes. It's, weirdly, they built one in about five seconds by my house. Yeah, great. But I discovered this through chat. Oh. Last, right before I left for the end of summer, I discovered a place in Mount Juliet. And, Monica, this is my favorite breakfast spot I've ever had. Ooh. Anywhere in the world. What do they have? Oh, my God. They have this thing called Piggy Benedict. Okay. It's a biscuit, freshly made biscuit, a big round sausage patty, poached egg, hollandaise and gravy. Nice. Fuck. Then they have a chicken and waffle that will put it up against Roscoe any day. It's unreal. They have this banana bread that is like bananas foster almost. It's impossibly good. And then you get like the basket of mini biscuits. Yeah, that's yummy. I don't think it's a low caloric breakfast. It doesn't sound like it. Well, I guess we should tell people you're eating cookies. I've been eating gluten again. Yeah. Yeah. I have. Post that Akkermansia probiotic. The one that Pendulum, we had an episode and she gave us these. I'm not endorsing anything. I'm not a doctor. I'm not saying it'll work for you. I don't know. I've been eating gluten. Yeah. And it's been going well. That's amazing. And I enjoy it. Yeah. Boy, is it fun to eat biscuits. That's so good. But we were only there for four mornings and we went twice. Nice. And fucking just. What's it called? I crave it so much. Do you want to shout it out? Paper Mill. Cute name. This town is so tiny and it has in it now my favorite breakfast spot I've ever eaten at Paper Mill. And then the best Thai food I've ever had in my life, Smiley Thai. Yeah. This is crazy. Yeah. It's great. You're meant to be there. Yeah. Meant to be. Motorcycle rides at night. There's a little mix up. I know he's listening. It was really sad. Ryan had a little mix up. What happened? On the dirt bike. He fell? He had a fall. Oh, sorry. Yeah. We were out in the go-kart and the dirt bike and he really let himself have it over it. He really, really abused himself. He was so mad that it had happened. Oh, I'm glad we're talking about it then. It really made me sad. Tore up his hand pretty good. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. It's dangerous. It's okay that he fell. That's why they're fun. Yeah. They weren't dangerous. They wouldn't be fun. That's not true. Spades isn't dangerous and it's super fun. I'm not saying something has to be dangerous to be fun. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What makes motorcycles fun is that they're dangerous. That I can see. You have your adrenaline up and you know the stakes are high. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is why I don't like them. That's why you don't do a lot of motorcycling. I wanted to say Shailene Woodley from Paradise Season 2, which we talked about, she won the Emmy. Well, she did. Yeah. And I had put in my endorsement on this podcast for her to win. Might be why. Can you explain the Emmys to me? Yeah. I don't know. What happened this year? I am confused. There was only Emmys last week, but then there are also next week. Creative Arts Emmys were last week and then this week. But doesn't Paradise, like winning for best supporting actor or whatever, that feels like that would be in the normal Emmys? I agree. Maybe because the TV has expanded so much. Yeah. It's too much for one show now. I think they've always had Creative Arts Emmys as a separate day, but I do think some of the categories got moved over. They were all kind of technical, right? Yeah. Yeah. They all felt more production-wise, but now, I don't know. Anyway, she won. Congrats. She deserves it. Yeah. Incredible performance. But yeah, the real Emmys, I mean, the. Oh. The traditional Emmys. The other Emmys. Yeah, yeah. Emmys Part 2. The Monday night Emmys. Yeah, or on Monday, which is also weird. That's weird, right? Wasn't it normally on Sunday? Yeah. What have they done? I don't know. I don't know. I present every year. I know the Emmys are coming up because I present every year at the Prop Master Awards. Oh, yeah. Are you doing that again? Of course. When is it? Saturday? I go support my best friend, Jeff. Their Saturday evening, yeah. Oh, that's fun. Mm-hmm. Wow, cool. And he said, how about for a bit you carry me out because we carry you actors all the time. And I said, I'll carry you anywhere you want me to carry you. You mean you're going to lift him up? I'm going to carry him out on the stage. Oh, wow. Yeah, we usually do a bit, Jeff and I. Oh, you do? Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Who's Jeff? Jeff was the Prop Master on Parenthood is where I fell in love with him, but then he was the Prop Master on Chips. Oh, fun. He came and did my movie, which was so fun. He's the greatest of any crew member I've ever met. I just love Jeff. Yeah, you like a lot of people. And I think he's the president of the Prop Masters Union or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How big is he? Seven feet tall. No. No. How big is he because you have to carry him? Oh, he's not a large man. Okay. He's a good size man. Are you going to carry him piggyback? I'm going to carry him piggyback or are you going to carry him like a baby? I'm going to carry him like a baby. Yeah, like a baby. Right. Or on your shoulders. That's cumbersome because I've got to get him off while we're on stage. Well, you want to do a bit. You might as well go all the way. You want to go big. Yeah. What if I had him on my shoulders and I came out on a pogo stick? Wow. Now that would be- That would really be something. Evil Knievel legendary status. So it would make sense. We would have a prop. That would make sense. Yeah. Last year, he was making a speech and I had his prop bag. Oh, kind of like- Superversal. Like that amazing speech that Julia Louis-Dreyfus made. Like she won an Emmy probably, an Emmy, ding, ding, ding, for Veep. And then Tony Hale went up with her. Oh, and whispered in her ear the whole time. Yeah, that was so good. That was so funny. This episode is supported by Helix. So I've had my Helix mattress for- for a few years now, And I still love it just as much as the first night. That says a lot because a good night's sleep is very important to me. Sleep is everything. And what's great about Helix is that it's not a guessing game with finding the right mattress because they have over 20 models. So you can find the one that actually fits how you sleep. And with that summer heat upon us, Helix has cooling upgrades that can get you the best rest even on hot nights. I have a Helix Midnight Luxe mattress. I really like the level of firmness it has, but that might not be right for you. They have so many options and you just go take the quiz and it is perfectly matched for your needs, which is incredible. I also highly, highly recommend the cooling upgrade, especially in the summer. It makes your sleep so much better. If you're still tossing and turning on a mattress that's not working for you, just trust us on this one. Go to Helix. Sleep.com slash armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. That's Helix. Helix. Sleep.com slash armchair. Um, I do want to say, I don't know if this was a wink, but Tonka was awarding connections some days ago. It was interesting. And was it in reference to the, well, we don't know. No, we do. Tonka trucks? Yeah. Oh, because was it truck toy related or something toy related? It was like toy, yeah, toy brand related sort of. I want to do that one. Well, now you know. This happened to me. Jess always spoils things on accident. It's like his. Superpower. Yeah, but it's not a superpower. It's a kryptonite. It's like Achilles heel. Evil power. Evil power, yeah. It's so bad. He cannot help but spoil things. Wow. And. What did he spoil? Well, he spoiled that. But then, you know, because he plays connections at the gym with his trainer. And then we were in line. That's not what you should be doing with your trainer. You should be lifting weights. He does, listen, I don't know. He's a master of distraction. In between they do connections sometimes. Anyway, and so we were in line for a restaurant. And he was like, have you done connections today? I said, no, I'll pull it up. And I said, but don't tell me he's like, no, I only did one. And he was like, starting to, I know, I was like, yes, stop. And then he was saying like, no, it's just, and I was like, don't say any other words. That's me in the F1 races when people want to start talking. And I'm like, oh, I haven't watched. And they're like, oh yeah, yeah, no, I know. Um, but, and it's like, no, no, there's no, there's nothing more to say. If I've said I haven't watched. Some people just love to spoil. They don't even know they're doing it just as happening. It's happening. Anyway, he spoiled the talk. He spoiled talk. And, uh, it was exciting to think that maybe when, uh, had talk good that like, oh, you know, maybe she was letting us know. Yeah. She was communicating with us. Bottom of pants. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Um, speaking of F1, there's a very exciting thing happening right now in F1. I know I've already talked about him, but Kimi Antonelli. Oh yeah. He just turned 20. He's won seven races this year for Mercedes. I think the record is Lewis winning maybe 11 in a season. So he has lots of season left. He could break at 20 years old, this Lewis Hamilton record. Wow. And Lewis's car was actually more dominant over the competition, that iteration of the car than Kimi's is. And Kimi last race, last weekend, he had to start at the back of the grid because he had an engine penalty. So he started in 19 and he won the race. Oh, this is like a Max Verstappen drive. This is impossible. And his teammate is up there in the lead in the exact same car. And he makes his way through 18 other cars, passes Max Verstappen in third and, uh, and wins the race. And he's 20 years old and he couldn't be cuter. Yeah, and he's so nice too. And it was the Italian Grand Prix. And he's the first Italian to win the Italian Grand Prix in 60 some years. Oh, that's such a happy story. It's a really triumphant race. It's a triumphant season of F1 right now. I love it. I'm going to be really conflicted when Max has a comparable car. Because obviously Max is my deity. He's my God. But I love this Kimi kid. Oh, do I love him. Have you seen him? Are you going to flip flop? It's going to be tough, man. I don't know what I'm going to do. Because I love Kimi, but Max is dangerous. You know, if they're in the same. Okay, that's enough. I just don't know what you're going to. No, I just like. Have you seen him? Have you seen him talk, Kimi? Yeah, you showed. Look at him. You showed us the video. Oh, yes. Of he and Lincoln talking. Yeah, he's so cute. Oh, he's so cute. He's got a great body, too. This summer, on the summer break, he posted a lot of photos of him doing different water sports. Oh, yeah. He was with Toto and Susie. Susie had a great bathing suit on in those pictures. I would serve them. I did not go looking. Oh, really? That came across? Probably because it knows I posted about them. Oh, maybe. The algorithm is very smart. We came up with a good idea yesterday that we should urge. It'll happen again in the episode, but I want to get it out there as quick as possible. We think you should be able. Like, you can send your playlist to people. Yeah. Like, your liked songs. You can do that. Uh-huh. We want to be able to send our algorithms back and forth. Oh, yeah, exactly, yeah. On Instagram. We do. It'd be fun to be able to use other people's algorithms for however long you want it to. I agree. But I'd really enjoy having your algorithm for a couple days, because it's just. It's closed, right? Is it just closed, closed, closed? Should I tell you what I see right now? Yeah, what's that? It is closed. Oh. Susie in a bathing suit. Yeah. It has Susie. Okay, first thing that pops up is Megan Fahey. Then Aziz. I'm just going to read everyone, okay? Okay. Then Aziz. Okay, now see. Because I just said. Oh! I just said Shailene Woodley. There you go. I got to pop up. Is this about Aaron Rodgers? Okay, listen. It is, and it's a page six. I don't follow, so it's just serving. I know, I don't like when they serve me gossip. Tabloids. Yeah, it's almost irresistible to not read. Yeah, I just read it. Yeah. Ugh. I didn't click it, but I hate that. That's why I don't like when they put threads in my timeline. Yeah. Because threads is all trash. It's all like. Threads is. It's all sticky gossip. It's like Twitter. It's all inflammatory. Yeah. Yes, it's just like Twitter. But. And they never deliver, too. When I get suckered into clicking on a threads thing, and it takes me to that frickin' app. Yeah, I don't have it. And I read it, and it's never as good as the first two sentences, and it almost negates itself immediately. Yeah. I mean, they figured it out. I know. Yeah, you can have AI go like, make me a very sticky sentence, and it can do it. I know. We're all so. We're so predictable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we are. That's why you just kind of can't have it, because if you have it, we're clicking on Clicking it. Or also, if you enjoy it, that's great, too. Right. I get a hangover from it. I go like, oh, I read like three. Because then that app's open, everything is terrible, right? And then I get sucked into four or five of them. I know. And then I'm just like, ew, I don't like how I feel when I consume this. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty good to have during fashion week, though. Is it? Yeah, because I can see a lot of fun stuff. A lot of fun stuff popping up. A lot of fun stuff. Anyway, all right, let's do some facts. Yes. Okay, facts for Eric Goode. Great episode, just fun guy. I mean. Wow, we loved it. I have to put him at the top of the heap for most interesting person we've ever interviewed, and I'm just obsessed with him. I think I told you, I sent him a text that was like, hey, next time you're getting into any kind of tricky situations and you need a co-pilot, I'm there, whether that's for work or just otherwise, like, bring me along. Yeah. Yeah, he's getting into all the. Tricky sitches. He really is getting into the tricky sitches. I don't think he can bring you along to some of them, because I think it's going to do the opposite of what he is hoping to do, which is kind of just be under the radar and be one of them and be kind of, you know. I'm not that famous. I mean, most people. But even if you're not famous, you're large. Okay. You have a large voice. Okay. And a lot of tattoos. Large nose, yeah. And stuff, so, like, I don't think people. Are at ease if I'm there? Yeah. Interesting. Okay. At first. Okay. At first. I'm pretty good at winning people over, though. I know, but there's no time for that in some of these situations. Okay. He's got to get in and, like, you know. I think I would have done great with that drug trafficker, Mario. Oh, yeah, but you even said you didn't want to meet Anson Wong. You said that in the episode. I don't want to meet him. Yeah. You have to be low status. That's exactly what I'm saying. Yeah, but how status is determined in that. In that world, which is all toughness and intimidation, really. So, it's like, an actor is just, like, he's not threatening at all. No, an actor. It's not like. Okay, well, I almost said someone, and I'm not going to say it because I was mean. Okay. It's not mean. He's very. Good actor? He's a great actor, and he is. He puts people at ease. Everyone can just guess who I'm thinking about. I don't even know, and I'm. Steve Buscemi. Oh, my God! That was obvious. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know how he crossed your mind just now. This is what I'm saying. Okay, whether you're an actor or not. not you have a presence okay and that thank you shows status like how many times i have to say you're big but what i'm saying is in the drug trafficking world they're like an actor he pretends to be tough it's so easy to write me off like they're they've been in gun battles like it's a different i know but i just don't think okay okay ding ding ding this is funny the other yesterday at dinner i don't remember how it came up but we were i think discussing maybe we were discussing the incident in palm springs maybe um and we were talking about how everyone reacts differently in these situations and confrontation and blah blah blah and just said he's didn't mean it in the way that it's gonna sound but he was like yeah no the only reason you're super successful is because you would fight with dax in the kitchen and what he meant was i'm not afraid to have a debate or or meet someone intimidating yeah you and lincoln exactly you should be you should be grateful you know one time you don't you probably don't think this anymore but at one time when i was babysitting you did tell her you said i hope you grow up and you're like monica no well she yeah i feel that way and she is yeah so when she's not intimidated by at all me yeah it's good of course it is that's what i want i know yeah so anyway that's what i hope to raise some a woman who's not afraid of anyone of her dad yeah and i'm a as you the aforementioned size and this and that exactly and she could give a fuck and i love that exactly yeah yeah so that doesn't make it so easy for me all the time but uh i know that's part of the cost yeah it's part of the cost yeah but yeah he um so he all to say i am not like those drug dealers i don't find you intimidating i know but uh they do or did we tell people that we do have an answer to the fact that remember when you pretended to be dead on the railroad tracks or passed out and i was trying to move you off the railroad track in your dream no here you were laying down on the ground we were we were role playing yeah if i were on railroad tracks if you're on railroad tracks and you were dead weight passed out would i be able to get you off the road railroad tracks and i said i would get superhuman strength but we can't practice superhuman strength and it's dangerous to rely on the notion you'll have superhuman strength when you need it i know but then we got the answer because i had to end up breaking into my house and it required a level of strength i would not have had on a regular day do a pull-up or something no joe my um uncle uncle contractor he was very impressed okay great he was very impressed that i could do that and then i was like oh yeah i can definitely roll decks off of the tracks right despite yeah you can't practice you can't practice yeah um all right now is the creator of est warner erhart where is he from and was he a used car salesman um yeah he all of the above yeah he worked as a car salesman and encyclopedia salesman before creating the self-help program est which like you know i bet a ton of people got a lot of great stuff i'm sure it couldn't have been so successful yeah i'm sure he sold both new and used cars in pennsylvania and california oh sometimes using the alias jack frost oh fun nipping at your toes but in a nice Chrysler Imperial. Low mileage, all highway. This thing's never been on an arterial road. Ew. My dad told me he used to sometimes stand in front of dents. Dents? When he was just first starting off, yeah. Oh. And he was a large man, so he could. When he was a used car salesman. Yeah, yeah, when he first started. Yeah. Oh, no. But then he graduated, and I know I've told this before, but he graduated, you know, he was the best car salesman at Avis Ford. He won two free cars. Yeah, that's great. There's like a national, whoever could sell the most Ford trucks, he won that. Incredible salesman. Yeah. And he kind of got so good that he had a helper who turned out to be my first stepdad. Carly's dad. He worked at the dealership. So wild. Basically, Greg would set up the deals, and my father would close them. And he mostly closed them across the street. At the bar. Oh, he said, like, let me take you to get a drink? Exactly. Oh. And on a couple different occasions, this is in the 70s. Sure. Where my book takes place. The people who bought the new car got so drunk with my dad at the bar that when they pulled out of the lot, they got broadsided and smashed their brand new car. That happened a couple different times. That's bad. That's really bad. So this is before your dad got sober, obviously. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah. No, that was when I was a kid. How big was my father? Like, probably 6'1", and always 250 or more. Okay. And how tall is your brother? I think my brother's 6'1", as well. Okay. You're a little taller. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. A couple inches taller. I'm writing that down. You're going to have a suit made for him? For later, yeah. Okay. You said in The Americans, she falls in love with Est. But it wasn't her. It was Philip. Who got really into Est. Sorry. Big mistake. It's a big mistake, but it's okay. Philip is the Matthew Rhys character. Yeah. They both just slayed those performances. They really did. What is the most profitable club ever? Nightclub. Okay? Okay. XS Nightclub at Encore in Wynn, Las Vegas is widely recognized as the highest grossing and most profitable nightclub ever, routinely pulling in between $103 million and $105 million. And it's a lot of money. Oh, it's so upsetting. They're a terrible advertisement for the drug. It does not look like they're having any fun. They're a perfect advertisement for it because it makes, I mean, they are the face of dare. Yeah. You know? Yeah. All right, that's it. That's all. Yeah. Fuck, I loved Eric. Me too. What a dude. I can't believe he owns the Bowery. I mean, become the biggest documentarian and the best hotel. Best hotel. And the biggest turtle conservationist. Yeah. And it was really, I did say it in the episode, but I didn't put too fine, I didn't like scream it or emphasize. I've been wanting to go to the El Roblar Hotel in Ojai for a while. And we drove by it on the way to the wedding. Oh, cool. And I was like, fuck, do we have time to swing in there and have a tea? Oh, a tea. That's nice. Yeah. We didn't, though. Oh, okay. All right. Love you. Love you. Bye, everyone. Bye, everyone. Not checking that your keys are actually in your hand before you close the car door. Have you ever stood in a parking lot full of sun staring at your keys sitting right there on the seat four inches away and completely useless to you? It's a very specific kind of humbling. Yeah. And for fast, reliable help when you need it, add an Allstate roadside plan today. Potential savings vary. Insurance and roadside assistance plans are subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Insurance provided by Allstate North America Insurance Company, Northbrook, Illinois. Roadside assistance plans provided by Allstate Motor Club, incorporated in Allstate Affiliate.