Equity of Experience: Rethinking Accessibility in Architecture with Suzanne Tate

Welcome to Accessible Housing Matters UK, the podcast where we dive into the world of inclusive and accessible housing. I'm your host Ruth Hunter, property investor, advocate and international speaker, on a mission to drive change in the housing industry. Each episode we explore the challenges, innovations and real stories behind making homes truly accessible for all, whether you're a developer, investor or passionate about inclusive living, you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hello and welcome to a new episode of Accessible Housing Matters UK. Today I'm joined by Suzanne Tate, founder of Studio T.O., which is an award-winning architecture practice. Suzanne has a real passion for designing spaces that work for everyone and she firmly believes that when you design inclusively, everyone benefits not just a small minority. For Suzanne accessibility, it's never an afterthought, it can be the starting point. So she is also judged for the civic trust award, specifically the Cell Wind Gold Smith Award for universal design, which recognises excellence in truly inclusive architecture. Through Studio T.O., Suzanne is quietly redefining what inclusive architecture can look like, proving that universal design and great design go hand in hand. I'm really excited to explore her thinking and approach today, and it gives me great pleasure to introduce you and say hi. How are you doing, Suzanne? Hi Ruth, hi. Thank you so much for having me. It's so interesting and super exciting for me. I'll put it out there. Suzanne and I are actually really good friends as well. We met, I would like to say, by the universe bringing this together. I don't know if you remember the moment we first met. It was in London and we were both at a property investor show, I think it was, and we sat chatting. It was as I was just starting my interest and investigations into universal design, and we just got chatting and then you said about how you're an architect and that you specialise in inclusive design, and I just thought what are the chances of meeting an architect who actually gets it and understands, and that was what three or four years ago now I think. We've been friends ever since. Absolutely. Got unlike house on fire. I'm thrilled to have you here. It's take more you just to get you on. It's been a long time coming. Yeah, we've done other podcast and webinars together, but we've never actually just had this conversation, the two of us. So as opposed to me babbling on, because I know we can talk for hours, could you please introduce yourself and tell everybody how you got into architecture and specifically what has led you into understanding and wanted to do more in the universal inclusive design arena. Well, you've done such a beautiful introduction already. I don't know if I can actually tell if it's beautiful. So Studio Teo has been in existence for over 15 years with my co-founder, Business Partner Joseph. We handle architecture and design of residential and commercial buildings. The way how I got into it, so I am trained in theory architect Joseph is architect. We complement each other's skills beautifully, and I think I always had this extreme passion for human potential. So even when I went into architecture, I did not go into it from the building perspective, but very much from the psychology, mental and physical health, trying to understand how humans used space and how the human potential can be enhanced by our build environment. So that's always been my passion, and that's how I problem solve in design space. And I would say that the universal design for me is just absolutely essential part of design. I think you and I talk about it very often when it comes to discrimination and how we see the spaces and how by design we discriminate certain amount of population based on based on the ability to move through the build environment. So when we take clients, design briefs, we always tend to challenge, ask the right questions about how universal the design ends up being at the end. What kind of a result are we looking at and who will benefit from the place itself? Okay. And was there something that you always got into? So because as you know, I'm also qualified into your object, although as many many many years gave last century, and I talk about the fact that we didn't really touch on it very much during my training, if at all really. And so it's not a natural thing for somebody to go into, we're not trained to design that way. So what was it that made you realise that universal design is something that you should, other than obviously wanting to design in a more human way, was there a particular project that you did originally where you needed to design in a more universal way or, you know, so how have you come to being in this situation? That's a good question. And you're absolutely right to highlight the fact that our education in architecture and interior design does not really cover the accessibility as much as it should. So as creatives, it's not in our periphery and we are often coming out of the school ignorant of this discrimination. So yes, it's not something that I have learned through school. I would probably say I learned it through a bringing and the people I was surrounded by as I was growing up, whether that was people of different ages, whether that was people in wheelchair, blind, I've got friends in all sorts of walks of life and I am very aware of how different abilities navigate space. So I think I was surrounded by people of different abilities from a very young age. So I've always looked at the inclusivity as just being something supernatural to me. I did not, I did not see as a problem, but you write schools, even in, I would say, even at my coursework, I think that was probably only one module that we touched on and yeah, I did not come out of the school cleverer and all more aware of the accessibility. I think it was through the people and my social network that I have this awareness. Yeah, that's so interesting because actually so I haven't been brought up with really any connection to anybody who has any mobility issues, who has any disability. So it really was, it's never been on my radar. It was only I've only come to this because of listening to a podcast through the supported living network with Lisa Brown and listening to the interview with Guy Harris and it was only from him explaining the situation regarding accessible housing. So that's the way that I came into it, but it's like I say to people unless you're in a position or you come into a situation where you need accessibility, you really are, we are really completely blindsided to it as a society and I think wouldn't it be great? Maybe like in an architect's school, you know, in a degree course where potentially the architects have all got to go out into a built environment in a wheelchair for a day. It would be amazing, absolutely amazing, or you know, try to navigate space blindfolded, see what that's like. I think now we have these experiences in a restaurant where you can go to the place and eat in a complete utter darkness. I think there is a place like that where you are served food by blind waitresses and waitresses and you are eating in a complete darkness. Oh wow, that's amazing. And how heightened would your other senses be? But that's a whole different thing. Absolutely, absolutely. I know that I did see a comma where I saw it. I think it was on the news actually where there were some sort of sensory spaces that were built into towns where you can go in and experience what it's like for those who might be on the spectrum, who have autism, neurological conditions. So there are people who are trying to incorporate that so people can have a better understanding of what others are having to deal with. But I think that is obviously one of the things we talk about a lot between it is and it's the term that you said to me that gave me the name of my talk. So and I credit you in my talk. So you are mentioned because it was it was literally that one phrase that you said which just clicked so instantly was we have designed discrimination into our buildings. Now it's time to design it out. And that was the moment when I realised that the issue lay with the people that designed the buildings. Me included in that sense of that's how we were trained. And people have designed that discrimination in by narrower doorways, steps, you know, all those sorts of things. So say firstly thank you for that because without that phrase I would have wouldn't probably give as much gravitas to my talk to be honest. And it's when I say that to people as well. You can see the penny drop with everybody. Yes. People genuinely just go oh my god we really have done that to our society. What's also really interesting is when I speak to people or when I do my talk people come up to me afterwards. And they've got to save all members within a family whether that is an adult member like a parent or whether that's a child. Yes. And as developers they've never considered developing accessible housing or universal housing. It's my invogling for me. It's amazing isn't it? And it's how people are so involved within their own bubble and their own life situations that they don't think that it's the same situation for the people or that this is something that can be dressed on a wider conversation. So I just find it really amazing how the conversation about accessibility just doesn't happen in a wider environment. Do you find yourself when you're with other architects or when you're speaking to other designers? Did they have a similar level of understanding to you or do you sometimes get frustrated when you speak to people who just don't have any clue about it? No I don't I don't think that deal awareness is widespread. I think it's quite unique even just coming across to you as a human being was an exceptional experience and nothing that's why we got on so well. Had a conversation for nearly eight hours and completely ignored the outside world. It was beautiful. I absolutely love it every time I think about it. So no I think I am super frustrated not just with architects but developers as well. Private clients often don't think about it for themselves either. So when they are renovating their homes they often don't think about designing their homes for life. And it's only when we ask those questions all of a sudden the awareness starts on the riverling or as you said the penny drops and they start realizing maybe this is something that we should be considering if we want to stay in this house long term. So even if you don't want to stay in a house long term what kind of legacy are you leaving behind when you move on? Who is able to come to live there? Who is able to come and visit just as you mentioned. I think where we are seeing the most progress it's within a commercial properties or work spaces. And I think that is because simply regulations don't allow it to be ignored. But even the code based design it's not sufficient. You know you can't think of it just from the perspective of regulations and legislation. You've got to really think about it. Not just from the guaranteeing compliance but from the sense of experience of the space. And it's not just a movement and a mobility. It's what you've what you've already touched on. It's the sensory. It's the vision. And I think we are as a culture so visual these days that we are very much focused on the aesthetic functions of design and architecture. We don't really consider it from any other perspective. Our education's not helpful because what it teaches us it's either sensory deprivation or sensory overload. So there is not that sort of middle ground where you are not just considering less noise less sound less impact but you're actually looking at what is optimal space and the environment for human functioning. What is enhancing human wellbeing? I think those are sort of primary questions that we should be asking at the design brief stage even if the clients are not bringing them up. It's up to us to raise that awareness. So this is one of the things which I find remarkable when I've spoken to other architects. And I asked them the question say so what are you doing as an architect to change the rhetoric? What are you doing to educate your clients with regards to what we should be designing and building? And the response I get genuinely is it's not for the architect to recommend or to suggest about universal inclusive design. It's basically for the developer to come to the architect to say right we want to implement this and it's again it comes down to the fact you don't know what you don't know. But if as an architect you fully understand that by designing inclusively you're designing for everybody it just makes more sense. And it was one architect who said well it's not conducive to the project is it. If I'm having to design inclusively or to an accessibility standard we're having to build bigger spaces which means we're not getting as many units out of this space which affects the bottom line. And I just thought that is just so short-sighted and when it comes down to the fact that it's profitability against the legacy and longevity of properties and how we all live as a society I just thought well there's the error there's there's the problem. I find that so triggering. So triggering. It's why I can see your face already. I know this is my favourite and it's angry. But that is the, those genuinely the conversations that I've had and I just thought well how do we even start to then educate the people who are responsible for actually the built environment. Now I want to bring you back to your work as a judge for the civic awards because I think it's so interesting what you said about how there is a much stripped of regulation with regards to how we include inclusive design and accessible design into our commercial spaces that has not filtered down into residential and it doesn't look like it's going to be done anytime soon. But it would be great to see or to hear about some of the buildings that you've gone to as a judge that have really sort of caught your eye that you thought were absolutely outstanding. And then those that also have massively failed and sort of is there a crossover or other ways that we can introduce some of the excellent design elements that you've already seen and bring those into residential? Yes, I think what I really like about the civic trust and that's why I decided to participate in assessing the submissions every year. It's a super super super exciting time of the year in September where we go around as professionals to look at what has been submitted and try to assess it, me particularly from the universal design perspective, obviously there's architects assessing it from all sorts of other different architectural merits. But the civic trust in particular, it's an award which looks at the building not only from the aesthetics perspective and the beautiful fissards and the materiality of it that we are always salivating over as architects, but also look at it from the perspective of how does the building serve humanity? What does it actually do for public? How does it participate in daily life? Does the public have access to it? And it's a great variety of projects. Sometimes it's out those spaces. We could, you know, last autumn, we were assessing gardens, which was really interesting because we were looking at places from urban planning perspective. Sometimes we assess offices, sometimes it's studios, sometimes it's institutions. So it's a really really great variety of projects and looking at it from the universal perspective, it's always fascinating because, you know, as an architect, if you're designing a monumental staircase in the central atrium and you sort of looking at the glass ceilings because it's a fancy library or God knows what, you know, where is the entrance and the experience for a family with a stroller or an elderly person that I've got issued with climbing up those stairs? Where is the equity of experience there? And I think this is what we are often missing when we are looking at design and architecture that we are just not designing the equity of the experience. But I'm really hopeful. I feel that moving forward in the next five to ten years, we will see the difference in terms of how we design the buildings. It's becoming a lot more prevalent. How we ask the questions, how we design the building and I think that all well-being and the equity of experience is happening. It's slow, but it is happening. In terms of civic trust, I'd say the most impressive one for me must have been the dance school in Brighton. It's absolutely beautiful building. It's run by the charity called South East Dams. It's in the centre of Brighton. It was a combination of public and private funding. It was a purposefully designed building, so new build from scratch. But the dance school was participating in formulating the design brief. It was very well researched and so inclusive from the perspective of disabled users, elderly users, children, staff that actually works there. Often we overlook the fact that we have users that come into the building for a couple of hours, but then we also have people who work there all day. We consider the accessibility or universal experience from the perspective of the visitors, but we very rarely consider it from the perspective of the workers. Is your office accessible if you need to spend hours in there? Can they employ a person in a wheelchair? Because they have facilities to accommodate here. This building covered all of it, and it was beautiful. The sizes of the lifts, the sizes of the corridors, the zone-out places, if you are having a meltdown or you are overwhelmed through the sensory experience, the disabled dancers, the elderly dancers, so you can have classes as elderly, the way how it navigates space for children, who experience world in a different dimensions. They are on a different scale. They're very much lower down. So what does that feel like? It was just absolutely beautiful from every perspective. I think it's probably still one of my favourites. That was the old winner. I don't think it won the award. That year was very tough, but it was one of the very rare cases that I recommended for the awards. Most of the time, when I write the reports, it's a no. When I think you online visiting some of the properties, I know, last year, you posted one, it was a bit more of a name and shame, wasn't it? I was just really surprised. Even I was like, how have they even put this forward for nomination? I don't know what the process is, obviously, but for them to even be considered as part of that award. Do you remember the property? I do remember. It was a central London. I'm not going to name and shame. I'm just going to describe it. It's a very old and famous residential block in central London. We have to give them a little bit of a credit. They're really trying. Obviously, it's an old residential block. There's restrictions and constraints in terms of what they actually able to do. But the part that we were focusing on wasn't the old part. It was a brand new part. So there was a new built extension to the existing block, which was supposed to facilitate the relationship with the public. It's an open space with the main entrance, reception, gym, café and a restaurant. Before you get to the residential part, there is this public space where you as a public and participate in. If you're a visitor, you could wait for somebody who is a resident, you could just come in from the street and have a coffee or a meal in a restaurant. It's very much geared towards that civic purpose and the service. Yes, as soon as I got to the front door from the pavement, I really realised that the wheelchair user is not going to get past the first two metres and so. There was a step. It was quite a large step and then some more steps going down as soon as the door opened. And it was absolutely necessary. It was so unnecessary, Ruth. We all just stood there, all five of us looking at this step thinking, why? What happened? This could have been level access straight from the main street. So they designed the new element to be universal, but you shouldn't get there. The front door was level with the pavement, the street level. But that was just the first one and a half metre when the door opened. And as soon as the door opened, they never noticed the first step happening. It was eye-watering. And then obviously there is two side entrances that a person in a wheelchair can use. But for that, you need to have a special card to access or you have to ring a bell and all of a sudden you are not having that experience of that central corridor or the central foyer where you are greeted by the reception where you can experience the water features. No, you're coming in through the side entrance that is awkward, you've got to ring a bell, you've got to say who you are, why you're coming there. It's not the same. And I think what you're highlighting and I don't, nobody else has ever really talked about this, is it comes down, it does come down to experience, doesn't it? And again, it's just a different way of us thinking about how we interact with our spaces inside and outside. Now I think the whole way through the podcast so far, all of the conversations that I've had with people is about regulation, you know, the proof document, and for, you know, tick box, exercise, kind of scenario. Nobody actually has spoken about the experience of space and the lived environment. And I just think, you know, putting it out there to everybody who's currently listening, that's one way where we can really start connecting on an emotional level with how we're designing our properties. We shouldn't just be thinking about, you know, how wide is the door, how wide is the corridor. It is that experience of how does somebody feel when they come into a building? Are they made to feel, you know, superior or are they made to feel inferior? And I think a lot of the time it is the secondary. I've seen on multiple different channels on social media where wheelchair users are really highlighting the fact that, you know, yes, there's an accessible entrance to the side, but it might be down a cobble road. Yep. Our next to the rub cupboard. Exactly. So let's sort of, you know, when we're thinking about design and architecture, the first protocol, as you've rightly said, should actually about how does somebody feel when they come into that property? Yes. And the message we're giving out is that they experience is less important than ours. Yeah. And that is just not, that's not right. Not acceptable for anybody. Absolutely. And I love that little comment you said about school as well, from a child's perspective as well. Yes, designing the children is so interesting. Yeah, this is something that I'm developing this year. It's a children-based place making. I'm super excited about it. Yeah. And I'm just thinking, but from the same experiences as a wheelchair user, invariably, the level of vision would be at a very similar height to a child. And so, yes, again, we're not designing our spaces for anybody who is shorter, who is in wheelchair, for children. We do concentrate a lot of the design elements higher up pictures on a wall, for example. We always put pictures high up, don't we? So again, it's just really, this is why I love speaking to you, because you always get me thinking about different things and what we should be thinking about. So, for example, we are working on our first project together. Yeah, it's very fun, really. Finally. Finally, get to say with a flipping line, I can't even tell, I think it's been seven months currently, that we are still trying to get this project over the line. It's the first one out of many. It is absolutely, and we've got already people who are wanting to work with us, versus investors, and he really are behind us on what we're trying to create. And I think after this, we want to have some more discussions actually, thinking about the design of the property, and really start talking about, okay, now let's look at the experience. Let's talk about how does it feel when you come into this property? How does it feel when we come into the large dressing room, in the master bedroom, and that on suite? So, I'm going to change the way that I'm going to think about the design from an emotional point, and I'm really excited to push that forward in that way, and our future projects as well. There is a question I do want to ask you, because I do think it is, again, it's a really interesting question. The term accessible design has connotations, and I know that when I do my talk, I put up a photo of a bathroom, which is bland, it's ugly, it's clinical, it's all of those things, might get people to shout out those words, how does this make you feel, what does it mean? I think, and then I show you them a really beautiful example of a university design bathroom, but the term accessible design, now you don't use that, you specifically use inclusive, which I think is better, but do you think the term accessible is actually one of the issues, and it actually is holding the sector back, and there's actually one of the things we need to think about is actually how we talk about it, not just about how we do it. Yes, I agree. I think it's creating a certain level of hindrance, and I think you and I spoke about it a lot, particularly when we are debunking the myths of what is the purpose of accessible design, and why we should have it, we come across that pushback all the time, whether it's like the architect that you mentioned, or whether it's developers, it's always that, is it going to be more expensive, do I really need it, and the maximum often we get to which we already consider success is that code-based approach where all we are getting is the minimum amount because it needs to comply with regulations, but I think that when we are using the word accessible, the way how we, you know, when I say accessible, majority of people will just imagine the grand pass. Yeah, that's where it goes. That's straight into the grand pass, right, or a ramp, that's it. Yeah. And that, to me, it just feels so detrimental to how the humans navigate space, right? And they have nothing against the grand pass. I think the fact that we don't consider them aesthetically pleasing, it's just mind-boggling for me, because it's helpful, it's caring, it's kindness, yet we call it ugly, and that just, you know, I think we need to reframe it as humanity, we've got to think about what is it that we are trying to describe with these words, and accessible, it's just so limiting, it does not cover what the building performance need to be, and I think we just need to expect more from our environment. Absolutely, I think one of the things that I have picked up from you is the words, are the words that I particularly use. So when I do speak to people in my talk, I tend to try and use the words universal and inclusive, more than accessible, so that when I'm speaking to people about designing, it doesn't put them off, because I do think that we have still got a huge mindset shift to happen in society, when it comes to that, I say gradually, slowly, slowly, but surely, we shall shift away. When you think about the trends, we all like to use the words well-being and holistic, and you know, we want to take care of ourselves, why do we not push that into the actual built environment? I don't understand, right? But you could say, didn't you, that by using, you know, support bars, or grab a, you know, don't. Exactly, grab a, isn't it? But actually, when you design in that way, we are designing in a more holistic way. So could we call it holistic interior design? No, there's so many different ways that if you were to just reframe it, it would be accepted so much more. And grab bar is a handle. It's a hand shake. Yeah, that's what it is. It's there to support you, regardless of whether you need it or not. If it's a slippery surface, you're going to feel more steady on your feet if there is one available to you. I mentioned this many times before about how much I love the invisible creations range, because. Absolutely. You know, obviously, they're hiding it as such into functional objects, such as the shower shelf. Now, and I've talked about this before, I know I'm repeating, but I do think this is so key. If we all had it, and we all had the shower shelf, right? Yes. The times where people slip and able-bodied people fall over in the shower all the time. I've had tenants fall over rip off showers off the wall because that's what we've got to grab. You know, they've fallen through the door. They've caused so much effort. They've hurt themselves as well. You know, so if it just was normal practice, and we just implemented the more the time into every day use, it would serve a purpose for everybody. And it's the same with accessible designers, isn't it? Universal design on so many different things within our lifestyle, like whether it's a car, the quarters kettle, you know, all the things that have been designed for accessibility, then just become the norm. Intuitively supporting our human bodies just so we can thrive. That's all it boils down to. When you're creating your home and your environment, why wouldn't you want to sit yourself up for success? You know, you're creating your space to support your daily routine. That's how you want to live. You want to eliminate distractions. You want to motivate yourself. You want to feel inspired in your place. I think supporting grab bar, it's a big part of that. So I think you're absolutely right. We just have a lot of work to do in reframing how we see accessibility and universal design in our environment overall. Well, obviously we're hoping that we're going to be able to show how we can do that in a beautiful and kind way. The whole point of working together is for us to start proving the model. It's something obviously I've spoken about now for many years, and it's taken a while to, I was hoping that obviously we'd have the project on the way by now, but it's taken its time. It had to be the right project, it had to stack as well. I hope to show that these types of projects and properties are commercially viable. And this is the whole point of working together is so that we have our first showcase piece almost to go, okay, this is how accessible, well, universal and inclusive design can look and be done in a beautiful way. That's our fundamental is that we're producing a beautiful environment for everybody. Yes. And this property, the property is redesigned, it's not just going to be specifically for people in wheelchairs, it's going to be for people to grow old in, it's going to be for families, even if you're not disabled, this is the whole point. Because I get people saying, well, can you be able to charge more rent? Can I charge more for the property? Because obviously there's this niche or there's going to be demand. And again, I say to people, I can't, I don't know the answer to that because I haven't got the model, we haven't got the model to prove to people yet because people aren't designing in that way. So that's the purpose of us working together is to start showing how we can design better. With regards to the elements of universal design in homes, what do you feel are the fundamentals that we should really be looking at? So if I'm a developer listening to this, wanting to design in a more universal inclusive way from an architect's perspective, what would you recommend to people with regards to what they should also be doing? So I think obviously you have that code-based regulations. So you've got the widths of the doors, widths of the corridors. I suppose those are the absolute essential basics. Having an understanding that maybe you might have an relative that is going to be in a little church at some point visiting you in your house, or that you have a family coming in with the prime, where's the prime going to go? How are they going to navigate the space? It's just being mindful, Ruth, having the wider doors is not going to throw your project over budget. So if there is a possibility when you are stripping the building and renovating it, to extend to just beyond that conventional thinking, then I'll just say do it. Do it because you are leaving the legacy behind. We know really state it's here to stay for decades. Whatever we are creating, it's going to be here for 50 to 70 years. We still love living in the buildings that are 150 years old, despite the fact that they are not fit for as most of the time. So I think it's about the legacy. It's not just about the here and now. It's about how us as an aging population, as our children grow, as we grow older, can use our buildings to have a better life, to thrive in. And that's going to come down to the education that's going to come down to the designers, that's going to come down to the developers, that comes down to us all understanding, as you said, what does it look like from a legacy point of view, and how do we feel about where we're all going to live in the future, all of these different things. But if you had a magic wand and can change one thing about the industry tomorrow, what would it be? I would change the mindset because I think that would give us the biggest scale and a shift that we'd so desperately need. So I think if we could change the mindset, that would get us so much further. I agree. Yeah, I agree. And I think that is, and I say it all the time, we've got to change the way that we think before we can actually start implementing it. Everybody has to be on the same page. So, fully concur on that. So closing up, four people listening, whether you're a developer, or a designer, or a policymaker, what's the one message that you want them to take away? If you are participating in building designs, then keep it in your mind that the building is just, it's not just for you and how, challenge yourself, how inclusive can you actually make it? You know, every single little change makes a difference because then it's a compounded benefit. So I'd say just explore it, ask your professionals, you know, ask them to support you through using creativity in a different way where the building can end up being more inclusive, where the result offers broader equity of experience for all humans. Absolutely. And a lovely message to end on. So that just sort of leaves me to ask you, how can people find you? Can they follow you? Anyone wants to learn more about working with you, StudioTO? Yes, absolutely. So they can follow us via social media. I am on Instagram as a StudioTO London. I'm on LinkedIn, as is untaid. We've got a website, www.studio-to.co.uk. There is a contact page through there. They can tap us up through you. Whichever way we are open to collaborations and even if it's just a simple question that people ask, I always have time. I'm very passionate about this topic. So any brainstorm, any advice, I always welcome the questions. Excellent. Right. Well, that just leaves me to say thank you for finally coming to feed me about this on the podcast. We genuinely have such big view visions with regards to how we are going to progress this. My vision and seeing viewers that we end up with our own sort of new build, company where we are showing people how we can design from scratch. So that's the big vision thing. So we're taking it step-by-step, proven model. But I'm saying genuinely excited to be on this journey with you. And here's to the future of showing people how to design 360. Thank you so much for so much fun. And yeah, I'm super grateful and very, very excited to work with you. So yeah, it's going to be great. Excellent. Thank you. Thanks so much. See you soon. Thanks for listening. And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure to follow the show, leave a quick review and share it with someone who cares about inclusive housing. It really helps spread the word. Also, if you have an idea, a story, or a project that showcases inclusive design, do get in touch, I would love to hear from you. And if you're interested in working on a project together, then connect to see how we can collaborate. You'll find all the ways to get in touch in the show notes. So until next time, take care and remember that accessible housing matters.