6. Equity in Community Colleges and Beyond: A Conversation with Pamela Eddy

Welcome to the EDUP Provost Podcast, a proud member of the EDUP Experience Podcast family, America's leading higher education podcast network. Brought to you by the Association of Chief Academic Officers, ACAO, the EDUP Provost Podcast Office of Platform for Sharing Best Practices, Discussing Current Academic Challenges, and Promoting the Educational and Organizational Interests of Chief Academic Officers. I am your host, Kregor Tusswitner, former president of ACAO, and special advisor to ACAO's board. Today I'm joined by Dr. Pamela Eddie. Dr. Eddie is the Associate Provost of Faculty Affairs and Faculty Development and a Professor of High Education and Educational Policy, Planning, and Leadership at William & Mary. Her research interests include Community College Leadership and Development, Organizational Change and Educational Partnerships, Gender Roles in High Education and Faculty Development. Professor Eddie serves as a consultant for campuses, system offices, and on funded grants regarding strategies to support community college students success and to promote leadership development. Dr. Eddie has authored seven books and edited six others. The most recent book with Kim Van der Linden is titled "Building Equity Driven Community College Leadership," which is hot up the press, so congratulations on your latest book. Dr. Eddie is also the editor-in-chief for new directions for community colleges and serves on the editorial boards for Community College Journal of Research and Practice, Journal of Women and Gender in High Education, and Innovative Higher Education. She received a 2023 Mentoring Award from the Association for the Study of High Education and the 2024 William & Mary Flourishing Award. Professor Eddie was recognized with a 2021 Outstanding Faculty Award from the State Council of Higher Education for Virginia. Additionally, Dr. Eddie received a 2011 plumbery award for faculty excellence at William & Mary. She was a Fulbright scholar in Dublin, Ireland in 2009 and continues her research on partnerships there. Dr. Eddie received her PhD from Michigan State University, her MS from Cornell University, and her BS in Economics from Allegheny College. So welcome to the Adapt Provost podcast, Pam. It's great to have you. I'm happy to be here, thanks for inviting me. Well, let's talk about your most recent book, which is really hot off the press. So again, congratulations. That's a major achievement. And your latest book is entitled A Blueprint for Equity-Driven Community College Leadership. So what are the key elements that define equity-driven leadership in community colleges and how can provosts leave these efforts? Great. Thanks for that question. The blueprint that we developed is part of the outcome of the research we had done with community college leaders has three main components. And the first component is really looking at some of the internal investigation and development of a transformative leadership identity. And some of the features of that really focus on the idea of equity-minded leadership. The second component of this blueprint begins to zoom outward to start looking at context. And there's a real focus on contextual competency. And some ways leaders are often doing different kind of environmental scans or looking at culture. And the piece that this provides that expands beyond that is looking both at internal context as well as external context. And then the final piece of the model looks at taking critical action and really argues for becoming an advocate for equity and moving from in some ways the idea of performative ways we think of we're putting on one workshop, we're doing something that is going to attend to a certain affinity group, which are all important. They sometimes don't move to the larger context. So this idea of trying to take action to move practice and to especially look at some policy changes are really critical there. When I think of the work that Provost in particular can be doing to focus on this type of equity work, I think a real key opportunity is looking at inside the classroom. Because faculty have really an opportunity to meet with students on a daily basis and ways that many of the rest of us on campus do not. So having the opportunity to put in place different kinds of training for faculty development on inclusive teaching practices, culturally relevant pedagogies are really important steps for that. I think the second area that Provost can really make effort on this is doing some data analysis to be able to look at where do we see equity gaps. How do we understand them? It's one thing to come in and say well of course everyone is successful in this class or in this program and it's another to look at the data to say well that's not the case. One of the vignettes that's in the book I think highlights this well and it was a Provost at a community college that relate this story saying that there had been an impression that students were coming from certain communities and not being as successful and because he was able to do an analysis of the data he was able to debunk that math to say you're assuming for example athletes have a certain way that their experience in the classroom having more or less success or someone from a certain high school is more successful than another and by surfacing some of those assumptions with the data you're able to paint a different picture and then also put a spotlight on places that are really having good success because then that gives you an opportunity to say what are the things that this program or this area is doing that we could replicate in other places. So I think and maybe it's my economics background I'm not sure but I love the idea of trying to think of what stories are the data telling us because they can tell a story and we can help others understand what the situation is as a result. Very good, very good. Now you've talked about some opportunities that Provost have but what about some of the challenges that the Provost and community colleges have faced with when they foster when they try to foster equity and how can they address those challenges within their institutions. I think some of the challenges is trying to get to this point of having individuals realize they actually have to assess and look at what biases they may be bringing to the table and what we can often see in some instances is what I will call a colorblind ideology where people will come in and saying of course I'm equitable I treat everyone the same when really looking at equity means giving individuals what they need and it may not be the same for you or for me and so breaking down that's a typically one of the first challenges trying to be able to say on an individual level why is this important and how do you identify the the type of work you need to do and to move forward on some thinking with that. I think another challenge with this that we're seeing increasingly is from an external perspective so that colleges around the country depending upon their location are able to talk about equity in a more open way or not so that if you look at some of the DEI trackers looking at legislation going on around the country there are states that are put in legislation where it really has put DEI efforts under the spotlight and not a great way so I think a challenge for Provost is trying to be able to think how can I do the work of equity abide by my state legislation and not get my campus in trouble and still really support students and the faculty on campus. I've seen some strategies with this where college leaders are looking to change the way they talk about things so I've had some of the leaders that have been both Provost as well as presidents use language that focuses more on social mobility. We're looking to help everyone from a social mobility perspective. We're looking at this from an inclusion perspective because we want everyone to succeed and so operating some of the same kind of programming that's going to help reduce some of these equity gaps and then using different language. Those highly committed to the work are going to do the work. It also needs to be something that is infused across the fabric so in the instance of some of these states that have really targeted of the elimination. of DEI offices, if a campus has relied on a person or a small team to say, well, you're all on church equity. You got that covered. When you have that elimination of that unit, then there's a bit of rudderlessness that people are trying to figure out, well, how do I do this? I think what it also surfaces is that DEI directors and leaders can't do this work a lot. This is really a responsibility of everyone. So as a provost would be looking at trying to figure out what are the things I can do in practice, it's that idea of how do I infuse this in a larger way? So one of the components that we discuss in the book is this idea of building communities of practice around this. So it's not an individual, it's rather a larger community that's doing the work, and everyone feels responsibility towards doing that work. How are these communities of practice helping this gap that now exists without having these offices, without having these individuals who were championing DEI efforts on their campuses? So if you see leaders getting together in communities of practice to learn from each other, is it not work that is happening in academic affairs and in student life or what's happening? I think one of the things that you see happening in practice is the conversations are still working across social networks that are established on campus. And one of the ways to do this, I think of trying to break this down to unit level. So if we start looking at departments or programs, you can see leaders at that local level being able to say, well, what are we doing to support our student success? And in particular because many states have performance-based funding, there are elements of that funding that are linked to completion rates or progression rates and sometimes based on subpopulations within there. So there's an argument to be made that this is helping the whole because we're working on supporting student success for all. So if that is the case, then bringing it at that program level, you can do investigation of saying, where are sort of these pinch points for our students that they're dropping out or that we're having a tradition? What kind of supports are most helpful for doing this? And then bringing that as an exemplar to the larger community, a provost could be able to say I've got these three departments that are doing some really great things. They're going to serve as exemplars and be able to then conduct trainings for other of their peers. So you start seeing almost a substitution network in place that is going to be able to still do the work that is needed. You can see this through a lot with faculty development so that if you're looking at faculty development on campus is looking at inclusive teaching practices is a very common area that you have covered. So while that may now be called equity work per se because it's not under a DEI office, it's still working towards advancing equity to help others. One of the things we found in the survey with leaders is that they were often recognizing instances where things were not going as well. Like, or that they saw some form of discrimination either a microaggression or something that was really overt and not stepping in and saying I'm advocating for that person in this instance. So you see that level of personal advocacy also helping to spread what are the norms within the institution to be able to say this is not acceptable behavior to do this. This is how we're going to move forward and that begins to have a little spread of what I think of innovation spread as well. I think some of the work of equity is being connected to some of these other efforts that are ongoing on campus. I was recently doing a talk at a local community college and one of the points that I made to that group is that one person can have a difference for a student and so when we think of that it shows that we have the power irrespective of what kind of offices exist on campus to have that kind of impact for a student's success in their progression. And it may be something as simple as saying hey there was a great job you did on ABRC and recognizing something positive. Now equally words matter if they're negative. So trying to be conscious of the power we have all as individuals to have either that positive or negative effect I think is part of it. There are on many campuses two different forms of faculty learning communities that form really nice pockets of these communities of practice that can work. I would argue that leaders like Provost can foster these as well with some intention. We're working on our campus to put together a series of what we're calling faculty huddles. You could do this where you have these smaller groups either a faculty, mid-level leaders, top-level leaders and by having that opportunity for learning together and being able to try out and practice things then you're able to see some of the outcomes and the actions that occur. It's hard for someone to deny that. No definitely. So Pam, if you look into your crystal ball and you look into the future how do you see the role of community college Provost evolving in the next decade especially when it comes to equity and student success? Yeah I think one of the things that Provost are going to need in their toolkit is certainly work with data and that is something that we see quite prevalent right now. I think the other piece that's going to become increasingly important is the role of partnerships and that partnering is going to be important not only internally but with external partners. We see with our really scant resources that we have in higher ed now we need to think differently about how to get things done and by doing that we're going to have to rely on collaborations and partnerships to be able to accomplish some of that. I think looking at ideas that can be regional partnerships with institutions of higher education and sharing of information is one way to do that. I think looking at that in terms of career pathways with local business and industry is another way to consider that and I think the need is going to come down to saying what are we going to really focus on even though we've done this for years and years that may not be the best place for us to put our effort or our funding for it. So I think the in the near future especially we're going to be needing to make these kind of decisions on where do we put our resources and how do we think differently about that because we really can't do things like we have because we don't have the luxury of doing it anymore. I think the other thing that is going to be important and we're thinking about leadership development is how do we begin fostering this development of the next passing of the torch. So what are the skills that we need to be looking at and the competencies to develop in leaders moving forward. And so trying to in the position of a provost to sort of look over your shoulder and say what have I found most helpful for this skill set is I've been leading in this position. How do I foster that in others and give them the chance because there are many that are bowing out and saying no thanks. I don't want to do this leadership role. And so how do we change the role in some ways to make it more attractive. A barrel of phrase from my provost and she's very sincere when she talks about this is where's the joy in the work. How do we think of the joy we have and think in some ways of what drew us to this. What motivated us. Why were we excited to say yes I want to be the provost. And I get joy out of seeing the success of the people that work with me. I get joy out of the success my students are having. So I think that focus on joy and wellness will be increasingly important as well. Yeah so I think you have a major point there. It is so important. Now what advice would you give to provost for your institutions who are seeking this type of partnerships that you were alluding to. to collaborate with community college provosts. So so they can create smoother transfer pathways and foster equity across institutions. There's certainly a heightened interest from for your universities, especially as they're looking at some of this enrollment cliff coming. How can I hand on ramp into programming? I think we can do a lot to improve the transfer pipeline. As in other areas, there's an equity gap in transfer. And so how we start thinking of what could foster better alliances is important. One of the pieces I think sometimes we don't give enough attention to is the role of the faculty at the two year and the four year in terms of cross institutional conversations about curriculum and alignment. So sometimes a barrier can be that for your institution may say, I'm sorry, we're not going to accept ABC credits because we need to teach them or we need to do it differently. When you see the faculty having the conversations across, it can usually resolve some of those differences. So I had a student recently do a dissertation on a high transfer partnership that existed with a community college and regional for your universities and one of those keys to success was that faculty conversation and building of relationship across. There was also a transfer advocate that really helped push the work of that. So the alignment of curriculum is going to be certainly a huge issue. The other piece is trying to provide these opportunities for students that are at that community college in the pipeline to spend some time on the four year campus before a transfer. So that there's not a surprise in terms of either the size or the processing that that goes on there. So having those kind of pathways and opportunities is helpful. The community college can work on developing transfer capital and students to be able to give them sort of a boot camp. You know, before you get to the four year college, here's a decoder ring. When they say this, this is what really they mean compared to ours because some of that unknown is what stops students and what they see. Shule Wong has a really great book on transfer pathways called on my own that was published in 2020. And what I like in her book is she has four profiles of transfer. Those that are seamless, easiest pie, those that stop out, those that are taking a longer route. And she puts in these pillars of the profiles real student voices. So you get an appreciation of what is actually that experience of it. I would argue that the last point I would make on that is it's good to have what I think of is the secret shoppers. Like if I wanted to think about transfer, I would get five students to try to go through a process to how do they find out information to be able to surface. Where are these holes? Like what are the barriers along that way? Yeah, I think that is so important to talk about challenges that students face right when they transfer from community colleges to four year schools because oftentimes faculty four year schools are completely unaware. So maybe doing panels panel discussions with transfer students to educate the faculty and everybody else on campus could help. And other things that that provost could do at four year schools but also with their colleagues with community colleges in working together so they can address some of the common challenges such as closing achievement gaps and then improving retention and graduation rates for underrepresented students especially. Yeah, I think in those cases it's always helpful sending back some of the successful students that have been at the four year institution to the community college that they came from to be able to say I was successful by using these strategies you two could be successful with that. I think the the unsung hero sometimes in this is the the role faculty play in easing that transfer process. So being able to even identify from a provost level which one or your faculty got a start at a community college because they then turn into advocates on campus and can really be sources of a resource for students that are coming in to say you know this is what I did. So we have several faculty on our campus who openly talk about the work they did first at a community college or the struggles they had at four year institution so then they went back to the two year institution to get a fresh start and coming back. So the more that that can be voiced in regular conversation on a four year campus it starts to demystify it and to show where some allies can be to be able to say how how have I done this. Increasingly we also see them for your campus is the institution of first generation programs or different kind of resources that are available. And so often we see several of those first generation students may have had a start at a community college even through dual enrollment. So we we see this as possible pathways coming in as well. So trying to understand what are some of the the challenges students have when they're coming in and how to sort of smooth that pathway I think is an important piece. I would like to go back to something that you've talked about a little bit before and that is the role that community college provosts play in fostering partnerships with local industries. What can they do to promote equitable access to career opportunities for their students working with potential employers and local industries? So I think in some way some of industry and employers depending on the size of them are really ahead of higher ed in terms of valuing diversity in their workforce because frankly it pays off and they're able to see better outcomes as a result of it. I think one of the ways that can be really useful is looking at chances to either do internships or co-ops and bringing some of the applied learning back into the classroom that students are able to make that connection between oh I'm learning about this in my math class. I see how it's going to work when I'm going to be on the job. So when a student can make that kind of connection and it can be through having panels from industry come in saying what is valuable or not having that connection is enables them then to see some of the positive ways to do that. In terms of trying to get students to envision too especially in career pass that typically are less representative. One of the strategies I've seen especially in the STEM area is the use of a strategy called scientist spotlights and scientist spotlights take what might be a woman in a traditionally male dominated career pathway and spotlight here's a woman that has done this work and you too could do it. So it's a matter of saying I see myself in this career opportunity and there are real people that are spotlighted there. So you could use a similar strategy in partnering with businesses to be able to say who on your workforce can tell their story to show them the students on the front end oh it's possible. So I work with geoscientists quite a bit and they like to joke the typical geoscientist image is you know white man in a flannel shirt you know with a picker and axe in their hand and so being able to highlight a variety of people in the role that that really challenges that traditional conception it helps and so I think being able to do anything to help the students visualize that there are possibilities with this and you know coming from a generation where women had fewer choices it's really evident to me how that's quite a powerful practice because you can then say I guess I could do that and you would see that I would argue in the way provost represent on campuses as well because the provost is a power authority also is representing the possibilities of leadership and people watch leaders like this and they're going to be watching you know how inclusive they are how they're treating others what what is the way they're they're acting with multiple stakeholders. from the custodial staff all the way up to their board of trustees because that matters as well. - Oh, absolutely. And speaking of leadership, how do you think community colleges can serve as models for equity-driven leadership? And what lessons can four-year institutions take from their efforts? - I think one of the things I hear often, especially from students that have done this transfer into from the community college to the four-year, is that the community college creates an environment of care around the students in that many of the faculty are there because of the teaching focus of it. And student support services are very readily available to try to help through challenging times, tutoring, especially with home insecurity and food insecurity. There's programs in place that are able to help that. So there is a sense already, hence the name too, with community colleges, that there is a community within the institution and it is connected to the local community. So I think that's probably a big difference that we'll see between community colleges and four-year institutions, not all, but you'll see some of that. So I think one of the lessons learned is how do we put students at the center of this decision-making, so that a student is not feeling like I'm a number or no one cares about me. So that whole sensible longing, I think, is a real critical element. Where do I feel I have people that are caring about me? And going back to my other comment, how comments from faculty or staff matter to the students 'cause that will help them feel connected. Knowing students' names, like as a minimum, ends up starting to be a real important point. So I think that piece of it is a part of it. I think the other is that you see a larger span of the way we think of teaching in the community college with some more opportunities for applied learning. So that there is this chance to be able to test drive different pieces you're learning, having this opportunity to think about how is this gonna be useful for me. You see that's certainly in the vocational aspect of the community college curriculum because students are doing the hands-on. I've interviewed probably a hundred students with one project that we did in the sciences. And almost to a student, the thing they commented on that they liked the best that enhanced their learning was hands-on learning. So the more experiential learning opportunities can be done, and we're seeing this at four years. It's not like four years don't do this kind of work. It's a more common practice, I think, in the community college sector. So the more we can do some of this experiential applied learning, the more a student is gonna have that click in their mind that, oh, this is not just dry textbook material. I can use this, and it'd be important for these reasons. And I think finally that care for community is part of it because you will see a lot of events on the campuses that involve community members. And so when you feel that you're part of the fabric, it can make a difference. And it's something like 60% of community colleges are in rural areas. So when you think of the role they play in communities, it's really outsized, like they're in. Cultural Center, there are all of these other things. - Right, yeah, we sometimes forget that, but that's such an important role that they play. And that regard as well. Now, you are a data person. And so my next question has to do with data. What role does data play in driving equity initiatives at community colleges? And how can robots use this data to make informed decisions, data informed decisions that benefit students from all backgrounds? - I think it's critical. It's probably be the number one element that I think drives some of the equity work on campus. Because if you don't understand the data, which helps explain some of the student experience, you're basing this somewhat on assumptions or anecdotal information. So the more we can look at data writ large, and a looking at progression is one way, have accepted 100 students and only 50 of them progress to the second semester and then 25 to the third. Then we know we've identified some issues then with the pipeline. So we can see that on a macro level. And on a micro level, looking at course level student outcomes is really useful. You're able to look at, like if I looked at my course, I could say I've got 50 students in this course. What I'm noticing is a great distribution that is correlated in some ways to other student markers. It could be SCS, it could be race or ethnicity, it could be gender. And then I can take a backward step to say, well, what do I need to do to change some of the practices in my classroom to be able to make all students successful? And so in that same way of the leaky pipeline, looking at data is going to be helpful for that. And oftentimes we think of data as the way where identifying equity gaps and things that are not going. Well, which certainly it's a tool for that. I think if we think of also, how does it identify what's going really well? It also begins to tell a different kind of a story with it. I like the idea of complementing some of the quantitative data with qualitative. I was just at a board of visitors meeting here on our campus. And a board member was asking, how might we address this particular issue or a concern? And my response was we have to ask the students, like we can't make an assumption of what they need or what their experience has been unless we've had this conversation. So trying to be able to understand that part of it with data can then open up a range of possible solutions versus you may think, oh, I've got these two solutions. When, in fact, you have 20 solutions that could be applied, depending upon what the data is going to tell you with that. So in all of my work, one of my first questions is, well, what is the data to support that? And early in my career, four-year institutions, I would get questions about, oh, those community college students. So of course, I was quite vocal in response to that. I was like, well, what do you know? Have you ever gone to talk to a community college student? What have you just assumed? So I think if we think of the tropes of this, if you go back to the sitcom community college, it's like, oh, these people are these people not bringing a full academic rigorous background in, they're not, they're not, they're not. Instead of saying, well, what are they doing? Isn't this amazing they got to see in that class when they've just worked the midnight shift and they've also then gone and taken care of siblings? So how do we have a recognition of the success the students are having along the way? So the data stories coming from students are just as important as what we're going to see in the markers. I think the markers in the quantitative data are going to point out areas that need further investigation. You know, why didn't I go from Cal Quantum to Cal2? Like, what was it that prevented me? And so you're trying to understand, it could have been, well, you scheduled it on a day of the week that I had to work my shift or something that is not related to my ability at all. So I think with Provost looking at that kind of data, they're going to be able to make a very different decision. And they're going to be able to challenge some of the myths around this. I think we come at some of the work on equity from a student deficit perspective instead of saying, well, what are the student assets that are here? And often, those of us working in higher ed have been successful at school. So we're like, well, gosh, isn't this everyone's experience? And so trying to understand how others can experience higher ed is really important. That is so interesting and such an important reminder, too, that we should really celebrate the successes and look at the positive things. We sometimes in the academy, we're trained to look at the negative, right? We are trained as critics and that that's all good. That's all important. But I think it's also so important to look at the positive and to go back to what your Provost says, looking really at the joy, why am I doing this job? Where's the joy? And I think when you focus on those success stories, you will experience that joy and purpose and vocation and what have you because you see that it's working, that education that community colleges, [BLANK_AUDIO] schools are providing is transformative. And then sometimes we have to remind ourselves of that. Yeah. And I would say you focus on that. And then you still do the hard work to fix the things that we need fixing of. And if we can help frame this in that way, it's important. I would say with some of these challenges, higher eds, facing, it's constantly important for us to think of what's the value proposition we bring to the table. And how do we articulate that? How do I pass my neighbor in the street and talk about, well, the reason this is important is I should have an answer for that. I should have an answer for why is it important a student has had that experience at my college. And what is it that they're going to gain because of that experience? So here's where a provost plays a real critical role is in framing that conversation. To say this is, this is all our jobs. You know, it's not just the provost that's out there trying to be positive about the outcomes of the academics. It's everyone. And I would argue, and I've seen this at community colleges as well, we need to get this all the way down to the level of custodial staff and frontline staff because that's often who's encountering students for the first time. And I've been on hundreds of campuses and there's a campus that sticks out for me for the effort the custodian made when I drove on to that campus to show me where I had to go in a way that I have I felt welcome on that campus. And he didn't know I was coming as a potential student if I was coming. And so that level of care and welcomeness down throughout the institution is important. And the provost can set a role model for that. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I think that is so important to recognize and realize and remind ourselves that everyone regardless of who they are, whatever their role may be on campus, everybody is there for the students. And so everybody contributes to student success. And if leadership, if senior leaders acknowledge that, then they will have a different attitude, a different relationship with custodial workers, you know, physical planned workers who, you know, you name it. I think that that team spirit needs to be present on every single campus. Yeah, I agree. Every more, you know, I wish we had more time, Pam, to talk more about these issues. And it's been such a great conversation. But unfortunately, we're out of time, almost out of time. But we have time for one last question. And that's the question I get to ask everyone who comes on at a provost. And that is which book you've read in the past year has had the greatest impact on you and why? This was this was a tough choice because there's lots of good books out there. And the one that came top of mind is by my colleagues, Rosanna Carducci and Jordan Harper and Adriana Keesar, which is higher ed leadership, challenging tradition and forging possibilities. I was a reviewer for this book. So it was nice to see an advance copy of it. And the piece that struck me in particular out of this is that they lay out the landscape of leadership in general. And they really have a critical lens that they're applying to some traditional theories that we may think of with leadership. And really spent a lot of time focusing on some of the ideas of libatory leadership. And what does that mean? How does that look in practice? And giving away for us not to accept the status quo. And instead to say, how do we ask these kind of questions that really ultimately will increase an inclusive leadership cadre? And so I really had a lot of times during reading the book that I was like, oh, okay, I have to think now. And so anytime you have a book that causes you to have to think is really a good one. And this is following on the heels of some of their prior work where they had a book out called the L and leadership, which really was challenging who gets to be a leader. And is it positional? Can we have informal leaders? And how do we think of an expanded concept of leadership? So I really liked a lot of the underpinnings of that. And probably the best thing was, is it was a chance to think. We don't, we oftentimes in our busy roles, don't have enough time to do that. So something that really makes me stop and have to contemplate to me is a great sign of a book. Absolutely. And could you remind us again of the title of the book? Sure. It's called higher education leadership, challenging tradition and forging possibilities. So I think they hand me at forging possibilities. I should tell from some of my comments today. That's awesome. That's awesome. It's definitely a book that's on my reading list now. And thank you so much, Pam, for being on edip provost. I really enjoyed our conversation. Oh, thank you for having me. I really hope that some of the comments are going to be valuable to those that are listening. Well, I'm sure about that. You've been listening to edip provost. I'm your host, Gregor Tussaudna. Until next time, keep leading, keep learning, and stay inspired.