Epstein Survivor: What Really Happened Inside Epstein’s Mansion, Strange Blind Date with Senator, & Katie Ford | Lisa Phillips

Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you. This was the one where it got put on the schedule that you were going to meet with him? Mm-hmm. Okay. And you were already at Ford at this point? Yeah. No, I was a Ford model. Now you're at Ford, so he had made that call. Mm-hmm. So you see his name on the schedule. You know, you're like, well, I guess I got to go. What's your initial reaction though? Like, oh, fuck. You were like, ugh. Well, I just remember calling my agent to say, like, I didn't want to go. And what'd they say? Well, I think she made a call to probably Katie Ford just to see. But I remember her saying, oh, I have to go. You know, he has connections with Victoria's Secret and things like that, so I think you need to go. And remember, at the time, I didn't know how close the agency owner was to Epstein. I had no idea they were sending each other girls. I just thought, well, that's funny. Why would I have to go see that guy? Right. But I went. I went to that Upper East Side mansion, knocked on that big door, and walked right in. There wasn't, like, a moment where you're like, ugh, I'm really about to do this? Or were you just kind of like, they told me I have to do this, I'm going to do this? Of course, there was that thought, you know. I know what happened on the island, so I was nervous about it. But I just thought, oh, well, he helped me to get into the agency. They said he was great. You know, and she said, oh, I love Jeffrey. You know, he's a good guy and all that stuff. So I thought, okay, he's a good guy now. So now in my head, he did something for me. He's a good guy. And so I went and met with him, and I had a really, really great conversation with him for about an hour. I talked to him about all sorts of things and, you know, laughed and, like, you know, talked about my real goals and ambitions again. And gave me— Did he answer the door? No, no, no. Someone else answers, right? No. Like the butler. The butler. The butler answered the door. Juan Alessi? Probably was Juan. Okay. Probably was Juan. If not—I mean, I can't remember who answered the door the first time. It wasn't—it was probably one of the maids. Okay. But they let you in, and they seat you in the room until you're ready to go up the stairs into his office. Okay. So they take you up, escort you to the office, and that's where you have this hour-long conversation. Mm-hmm. The second you walked in there, before you have this good conversation that I do want to hear more about, like, you see him for the first time. What's the— What's the feeling like? Deep breath. He made me feel really comfortable right off the bat. So I felt comfortable with him, I think, again, like the initial meeting. Just had a really good conversation with him just about life again, goals, you know. Thanked him for introducing me to Katie. Thanked him for introducing me to Katie and becoming a Ford model. And he asked a lot of questions about that and, you know, what kind of events and things I was going. Did I know a lot of models? And he definitely wanted to know, like, you know, how much I networked and how many people I knew and how, like, deep I was in the modeling business and knew people, which I knew a lot of people then. And so I think that was kind of exciting for him that I knew a lot of other young girls. And we just had, like, a really good— I just remember a really good conversation. And he was on the phone with a really important person. And so he made it a point to let me know, like, who he was on the phone with. I could hear him talking and— And you're not going to say who that was. Well, he was, like, a billionaire at the time, and I knew who he was. He recently came out in the files. Ooh. You know, so I heard him talking to him. Hey, guys, three quick things. Number one, if you haven't subscribed, please subscribe. It's a huge, huge help. Number two, if you'd like to join my Patreon for early, uncensored releases of the full episodes, you can join via the link in my description or in the pinned comment below. And number three, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make content from the show and make money, you can join via the Discord link in my description below. And then he told me, like, a little secret about him. And so he was trying to make me feel, like, really comfortable, you know? Kind of like I was in, like, one of him, one of his people. You know, he was really good. So it was just a really good conversation. So I thought at the time that that was going to be it. I thought that was it. So I kind of, like, got him. You thought you'd never see him again after that. Well, I don't know. I just thought that was it. I thought, well, that was great. Thank you for everything you did for me. Wonderful. Like, just wanted to get out of there. And then I just kind of, like, got my bag and stuff all ready, and I tried to, like, get out of there. And he just was like, no, where are you going? And then does it clock back, like, oh, shit, this is now going to be. He was like, let's do a massage. Just like that? Mm-hmm. What goes through your head when he says that? Didn't really have time to think, because he was right out the door to the massage room. So there goes the next massage. So that's when I have the next massage, which was exactly like the first one, without the girl. I can't really. This is one of those situations where you want to try to, like, put yourself in the shoes of someone like that. And I guess I'm happy to say I can't. But, like, I wonder if just the fact that you walked through the door, considering it was four months later, he had already abused you. Now he's. He's. He's. You had a job because of him. He was put on the schedule, and you walked on your own volition to his place. He was like, gotcha. Like, I can't think of another way to. Is that how you describe it? The only thing that I know is the fact that I saw someone really important. He was not allowed to let me out of that orbit. I was not allowed to be. Free without me thinking he was a good guy, that I would never turn on him or talk about him. You know? So I just feel like there was a reason why he keeps you in that orbit. And so the massage, whether he was getting off on me or not, I think has to be done. Because that's the way of keeping you silent again. Because I don't understand why he wouldn't just let me leave. Like, why would he have to? I mean, we know now that he abused. The exact way I'm explaining to you, six to eight times a day with different girls. Six to eight times a day. He was jacking off two girls six to eight times a day. And that's what he liked. So. I don't really know why he wanted to do those things to me. I really don't know why. He didn't always do it. But that time, he definitely. Did. So. Same thing when it was over? Just kind of like, we're done? Yeah. Grab your stuff and leave. When you walk out of there, is it the same kind of. I don't know, frozen type feeling you had the first time? Like, just literally right over again? Or is there anything different this time? Well, it's just confusing because it's an actual, real massage. Right? It's not like, let me just pull this girl in here and just rape her. You know, it's like an actual massage. Like, he's really teaching you how to do a darn massage. Like, he really needs a massage six, eight times a day. And then he has to. Like, it's his thing, you know? Yeah, but I mean. That's just like. It's something entirely different, though. Like, it may start that way, okay. But then he's turning that into something that's not a massage. It's pure. It's pure rape. But you're not. There's something in your head where you're kind of, like, normalizing the fact, well, it is. No. I definitely know it was a violation of my body. But it just. I can't even answer to you why. I couldn't feel like I could leave or scream or do anything. You know, I just was just hoping I'd never have to. See him again. That's always what I was hoping I would leave and never have to see him again. And it's crazy, too, because, you know, as a podcaster, too, like yourself, I've interviewed a lot of Larry Nassar survivors. And, my God, their abuse is the exact same thing. Jewish guy who treats them like, oh, you know, this is, like, our little secret, you know. You know, I'm helping you out. You know, here's little snacks, you know. He's, like, trying to get on their good side while he. He lays them on a table and abuses them the same way. He's a digital abuser. He never had sex with them. He uses fingers and tools in their body, you know. And they were just as confused as two. And the Epstein survivors say, oh, is he doing these creepy massages to you? And the Larry Nassar gymnasts are like, is he doing the same medical procedure to you, too? You know, that they can tell is creepy and not right, too. But everyone knows it's creepy. Everyone knows it's not right. Everyone knows he's violating you. But nobody says, like, this is an assault. This is abuse. Nobody could even say the word. those words i never did they never did you know and it's like it's the exact same type of abuse they get away with because they get off on that they have control over you um but nobody knows how to identify it and it's it comes with massive confusion yeah so when i leave i'm like confused it was the guy talked to me for an hour he's like a mentor he shared little secrets to me about so and so like he got me with an agency like i i like all these things and then i'm like well maybe maybe it's not so bad you know and and i would just justify it like well fuck i mean that's just what we have to go through as women you know you know that we don't have autonomy we don't have we don't have like anything over our body to say like no leave me alone get off me it's like almost really really difficult to say something like that when you're in those situations you one of if not the most common dms i get on instagram are many of you asking me what my favorite books are well today's your lucky day because if you use the link in my description below to join my newsletter i'm going to give you my top 10 book recommendations right now also if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make money producing content from the show you can do so via the discord link in my description below and finally you can join my patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes via the patreon link in my description below as always please take one second to hit that subscribe button if you haven't already i really appreciate it and i'll see you in the next one bye bye appreciate that also the like button's a big help and you can join my newsletter via the link in the description below but you're pretty quickly like i don't want to say not rationalizing but when you're trying to like understand what's going on you that's a thought that's coming in where you're like well i guess i just don't have control exactly yeah i think most of the time you feel like when you're groomed you don't have control i feel like if you just dragged me off the street yeah i think that would fight back and things but i think when after you're groomed for an hour and then it's a massage and then it's the assault then it's like this whole thing of like wait a second what just happened yeah yeah and that's his mo that's how he abused you know the majority of these girls you know one of the things we don't know a ton about to this point and maybe some people out there if you've unearthed it you can share evidence in the comments i'd love to review it but we don't know a hell of a lot about jeffrey epstein's childhood we know he grew up in coney island he had two parents and only had a brother but we don't know of any like life experiences he had and stuff like that so if i assumed for a second that he was not someone who himself was abused a bunch because there are prolific abusers out there who weren't abused they just get off on this kind of thing and do it where do you think that ability to psychologically manipulate people like that comes from it's a really good question i would i would think he would have had to have learned it from someone i don't know if it's a family member you know or something you watch on tv i don't i just don't know i mean it takes years to get to that stage i don't think it just happens overnight you know but probably you know a little bit here a little bit there seeing how you can get over people how easy it is to manipulate and then you know just working your way up the ladder you can manipulate someone at you know the high school then you can manipulate someone in finance then you can manipulate someone in government you can manipulate you know young girls are pretty easy so um he used to always say like 25 26 you know that's when the brains developed so he never went over 20 25 26. you know oh he would say oh yeah like yeah young yeah yeah girl's brain develops at 25 26 he would never ever even because you can't have any it's very very difficult to manipulate a woman when she's hit 26 years old they're just you know have a different way of thinking and a worldly view and it's harder unless you had pre-existing manipulation with them i mean you can manipulate anyone at any age you can be 50 60 that you can manipulate we see that happen all the time i understand but but it's just easier when you're younger obviously because it's you know you look up to adults you want to believe you want to believe them and you trust them and and if you're making an assault on you look like it's nothing you know uh then sometimes it just becomes like oh it's nothing and in that one hour conversation he really did make you feel like oh he's like kind of a mentor and i'm a specialist and you were special what what about not even necessarily something specific with what he said but what about how he was talking with you made you feel special well the fact that i was even able to become a ford model made me feel very special that was very it was super not easy to become a foreign model um you know i had worked so hard many many years to even get to that stage and he's no idiot he's not sending off some girl at random girls to ford modeling agency you have to actually be able to get signed to that agency it's special enough to sit in front of him for that hour you know and get the best advice in the world basically he advises you know billionaires and the tops of government and i'm getting the best advice you know really really good advice i still use to this day like what well just business you know i was able to form and build businesses and um be successful and everything that i wanted to do probably from a lot of things that he taught me i mean he sat there and taught me things it wasn't just like surface conversation do you have a not to put you on the spot but do you have like a specific example maybe with as it relates to running a business or something like that that he taught you um well i guess i could but i'll tell you something that he used to say to me with men he used to because he used to send me on auditions and when i would come back from the audition i would disappoint him like if i didn't do anything with the director or i didn't get the part and he would say oh that's just the way hollywood works you have to just um you know let the guy think you're going to sleep with him you don't have to actually sleep with him but just you know you know you know flirt with him a little bit put your hand on your on his knee you know be a little bit like aggressive but don't have to go there because they can't sleep with everybody you know what i mean so he would say oh you fucked up because uh like a lot of times he would send me on these auditions and he'd want to know every little thing every little thing that happened or was said you know because he wanted to have these things on people and how they operated and how they were were they straight up like invite you to dinner and then slowly assault you or do they straight off assault you like he wanted to know everything so he would try to tell you how to be with a man but also to get ahead like in your career and in business and things so um also he would tell me about businesses that were coming up that women could um whatever you were interested in he would tell you you know how to manipulate those situations to get uh your career like i had friends that were in the art world and friends that were wanting to be like tv hosts and things like that and he definitely showed them how to like manipulate it so they could become successful that's why there's many women today who are extremely successful who are very successful in their own way so i think that's why i think there's so many people out there who are very successful in their own way so i think there's so many people out there who are very successful in their own way so i think there's so many people out there who are very successful in their own way so i think there's so many people out there who are very successful in their own way i don't even really know how to say this but like so evil just as like an aside to all the evil he did he did he did would give people like you something that you would give people like you something that you would give people like you something that you might actually still use to this day might actually still use to this day might actually still use to this day evil yeah as you can see in the files evil yeah as you can see in the files evil yeah as you can see in the files you know there's a lot of evil you know there's a lot of evil you know there's a lot of evil uh going on um uh going on um uh going on um i'm not sure if he was giving me evil i'm not sure if he was giving me evil i'm not sure if he was giving me evil advice advice advice i think it was just like business i think it was just like business i think it was just like business business advice you know i i don't know i business advice you know i i don't know i business advice you know i i don't know i see it as just business advice i don't see it as just business advice i don't see it as just business advice i don't think there was anything like think there was anything like think there was anything like and then just as a part of his and then just as a part of his and then just as a part of his manipulation tactics on the periphery manipulation tactics on the periphery manipulation tactics on the periphery he might happen to throw you a bone of a he might happen to throw you a bone of a he might happen to throw you a bone of a good piece of business advice good piece of business advice good piece of business advice he told me if you go for any job the he told me if you go for any job the he told me if you go for any job the fact that you're a four model fact that you're a four model fact that you're a four model you'll get called in every time so you you'll get called in every time so you you'll get called in every time so you make your resume put at the top that make your resume put at the top that make your resume put at the top that you were a four model he said every single you were a four model he said every single you were a four model he said every single um job that you go for with your resume um job that you go for with your resume um job that you go for with your resume you'll get called in right and it's so you'll get called in right and it's so you'll get called in right and it's so funny that it's so funny now funny that it's so funny now funny that it's so funny now because i'll look at resumes from because i'll look at resumes from because i'll look at resumes from people that i know knew him i'll look people that i know knew him i'll look people that i know knew him i'll look at their resumes that have come up in at their resumes that have come up in at their resumes that have come up in the files it says they were a four model the files it says they were a four model the files it says they were a four model right at the top so he was giving this right at the top so he was giving this right at the top so he was giving this advice out advice out advice out you know so you know so you know so just little things like that you know just little things like that you know just little things like that you know that i picked up on you know that you that i picked up on you know that you that i picked up on you know that you would listen to from any mentor would listen to from any mentor would listen to from any mentor right you know does it have to be a right you know does it have to be a right you know does it have to be a mentor that's abusing you a mentor of mentor that's abusing you a mentor of mentor you know is giving you life advice mentor you know is giving you life advice mentor you know is giving you life advice because he's not going to speak on because he's not going to speak on because he's not going to speak on anything but real anything but real anything but real things you know um things you know um things you know um yeah i don't know if i'm like proud of yeah i don't know if i'm like proud of yeah i don't know if i'm like proud of any of that but i mean i'm no stupid any of that but i mean i'm no stupid any of that but i mean i'm no stupid girl if i'm gonna sit there for an hour girl if i'm gonna sit there for an hour girl if i'm gonna sit there for an hour with somebody i'm gonna get like the with somebody i'm gonna get like the the best information. because that was the part of making me feel comfortable enough for an hour later to do what he wants to do and also the point you make about putting the billionaire on speaker someone you would know and like showing you hey i can't even tell you about this guy you can listen in on him what do you think i can tell it's like psychologically what do you think i can tell about you to other people and you know what's so crazy too in the files some of the secrets that he told me i i could see it's like validation yes in the files like okay wow that was true and that was true i don't believe there was anything that man said to me that wasn't true anything no i really don't believe he was bullshitting on anything i think almost everything i think everything he said was true yeah i don't really see why he had a lie i mean the manipulation but the manipulation wasn't in the lies and manipulation was just like he always came through you and what he said he would do for you i have girlfriends that went through four years of university through him you know got their jobs through him things like that so he would keep his promises on stuff like that because he can because he can yeah he's not like let's take let's take like the the mediocre pedophiles and predators out there they they give you false promises right and they get you in and then they can't keep you much longer because they're always false promises because they have no leverage and no power this man had all the power in the world you know to get what he wanted that's why he could get these beautiful young women right you know and make all these things happen for them and then you know the leverage of the underage girls in florida i mean what was their leverage they're in high school so it's just money you know for their family two or three hundred dollars for their family goes a really long way and you would go after poor girls around there too yeah who had parents that were in jail or drug-addicted parents i know a lot of them you know and they have like major trauma from all this horrific trauma i mean i can't even i think the trauma comes worse for most girls when it had to do with glaine because it was a woman oh because it was just because it was a woman because you can expect you know someone like jeffrey epstein to abuse you you're it's older man what else does he want you around for but the older woman like what is she doing why is she pulling in young girls why are you doing that to young girls not because she's a young girl she's a young girl she's a young girl she's a young not many women do that you kind of have to be a monster she's a monster yeah to go looking for hundreds of girls and then you know giving it to him giving giving you over to him and then also participating you know yes there's a big difference that's why i said then as sarah cullen in my opinion someone who's probably in her 20s who was abused you know who turns and maybe made wrong choices of course she made wrong choices but galen is on a whole other level and a whole different level yes you know yeah and and it's you know it's also all the people around though because it's a similar type of psychological question to ask like what i asked was sarah but did you ever hear the two podcast series that tarapel mary did back in 2020 one was like the the other one was epstein so virginia went around with her yeah and in one of the podcast series it's literally like like a documentary just recorded but they go to usually the gated communities of different people who were associated with jeffrey epstein and say hey it's virginia robert chufre with remember me and i'm with this reporter tarapel mary can we come in and a lot of people wouldn't let them in yeah like the chef adam perry lang was like oh i remember you virginia threw an emissary but i can't meet with you the guy juan alessi let them in the driver the i guess he was like the housekeeper i i it's been a while people go i actually do need to go listen to that podcast again because i cited a lot so i will do that after this but he'll not only let them in he agreed to let tara record it and i always say it's one of the most difficult things to listen to from a human perspective because you feel a million emotions for this guy you feel anger that he didn't say anything you feel empathy for the fact that he was an immigrant who signed this crazy nda with these powerful people and then felt pressured to not say anything you feel weird that he's sitting with virginia who he clearly not only remembered and knew but liked a lot and viewed her as a real person and yet you're angry at him because he turned a blind eye to this stuff i mean there's so much going on yeah but what power did he have to say anything back then that's my question it's like wound up dead or like nobody would have believed him that's what i wanted to ask nobody listened to to anyone back then yeah so when you look at people like that the gardeners the housekeepers the people that were around him working on like the staff you kind of look at it like and correct me if i'm wrong here what were they going to do what could they do i feel bad for them because i'm sure they have a lot of guilt and shame about it i'm sure they do yes i'm sure they're seeing you know eight girls a day at a house young girls coming in and out the doors i think they're they're not stupid to know what's going on they have to clean up like dildos and things out of his room they know what's going on but they have no power to say anything you know i mean obviously we wish they would have i wish there were some fbi files that says they made a report or something but it wouldn't have done anything they had reports from hundreds of girls you know you see this latest video of the other butler that they interviewed in 09. i still have to look at this all the way but like it's on tape and he was telling them like what was going on i think they arrested him recently yeah no it's from the file steve can we pull it up on twitter epstein butler i want to make sure i get it right this was like just coming out oh that was coming out in the files yeah okay good yes and the fbi it's on it's in like a gray tape if we can find yep that's it can we pull this up on the screen and see what what's what so this is this is a formerly secret video of jeffrey epstein's butler trying to sell a copy of epstein's little black book so i guess it was like yeah then he got in trouble for it why is he doing time you know oh i'm not laughing because it's funny i'm laughing yeah i know i saw i saw this one and then he gets in trouble for it that's insane is this i even had the words for it he goes to jail for that and not the actual people that were doing things yeah well you know the famous line from the 08 case alex acosta who later became labor secretary he i was told he belongs to intelligence he was told that jeffrey belongs to intelligence yeah yeah that's what he was told so and that means hands off yeah that would explain the 80 cameras in every room but just because you belong to intelligence doesn't mean you have the right to like abuse all these girls it's insane it's like yeah it's like this god-like thing i can do whatever i want to do because you know i have immunity and nothing's ever going to happen to me you know yeah like that's the thing that guy alex acosta has daughters i believe we can check that so many of them have daughters i know i need exactly but like but i think that somebody their hands are tied they can't even do anything that's the problem he's running that whole case though it's like i don't know i don't know either um i think there's just a crazy amount of evidence out there so lisa real quick i just have to go to the bathroom yeah yeah come right back okay okay all right we'll be right back all right we're back so god i have so many questions here but i we did get off from the second half of like after you left the second time from from his place and you were going back like where did you go back to that day you said you had a full day scheduled out for you did you go back to the agency right away or do you not remember i don't know similar kind of like have to compartmentalize it though again i don't have no idea i mean i've not even thought about where i went after that when was the next time you saw him so during those years like i would travel a lot for work so um i always had the excuse of like not being um available as much and i tried to avoid him as much as i could so there was there was a few times that i saw him over the next couple years um and it was pretty much the exact same thing i i described in the second scenario the second time i went there so he talked to you for a while yeah somehow make you feel good again yeah and then then the massage it didn't happen every time but it happened most of the time um and then from there it was mostly just uh i don't think his thing was to have me do these massages i think it was more so i have an audition and he would send me on a plane to go to los angeles for an audition and that person a big director is in the files so and then i found out many years later that other girls were sent to that same director so it was things like that and then there was an episode where he told me to go to uh it was after a movie premiere and i went to a like a hollywood after party um after premiere party and the owner of the ford mauling agency was also there with some girls and then uh there was this like celebrity that was like all over me and i you know kept saying like get away from me he was way way way older than me um and like gross or coked out or whatever and i was just like leave me alone um and i was complaining to um my bookers and stuff from the ford agency you know that this guy was bothering me um and then i just we we left you know that restaurant we went to a couple other parties and then i found myself with you know katie ford and some other models back at this actor's house at a suite at his hotel on the upper east side um and i was in there for a few minutes they left i was in the bathroom and i was there left alone and then from there um i was assaulted by that big that celebrity very well-known celebrity in that room so i at that time i just thought well like dumb luck you know on my part that it ended up that way but i ended up finding out years later through like now we're on 2020 and i'm deposed for cases and i'm telling stories of what happened to me and my attorneys are like oh you've been trafficked and then they're like who did what you know and then all this stuff started coming out um and um i found out during that time that um that katie ford had been in on things with epstein and that she epstein had sent me to her but she was sending girls to him and so i just started getting really upset about it because now here i am thinking i worked my way you know i'm becoming a ford model and now to find out you know there was some nefarious you know ways of me becoming a model had to do with this these agency owners and then they were like in cahoots with like bringing these young girls to parties around these older men and kind of like pushing you off to these men while you just think you're special or just hanging out with these people you know um and there was a much darker reason why they were bringing you around to these places and so that was that was really hard for me to to like comprehend and know that that's what what was really going on in those early years when you're a ford model and this stuff is intermittently happening you know you had said you'd always wanted to be a model and everything like that were you able to ever have fun doing your job too or was the joy taken away no i did of course like i loved i mean we would travel on shoots to exotic locations different countries you know i really enjoyed the actual job of modeling um i mean it's pretty strenuous i wake up really early i have to take really good care of your skin and your body i mean it was around really creative people you know um i love the artistic expression of it but you know there was all sorts of things going on where you were constantly around these creepy men who you know predatory men and um also finding out that a lot of the women were involved never really sat right with me it never does when these older women are putting you you know around these older men um basically it's basically trafficking you to these men without without you even knowing it absolutely and i feel bad for a lot of these girls who are just trying to live out their dreams you know like i was and put in these situations where they never really should have been in so that episode was really weird um didn't find out what was really going on with that until just two years ago um there was also agents who you know weird things were going on so these model agencies not only were sending girls to epstein they were also bringing you to these parties around other older men and they were also in with a lot of politicians and like senders and things like that so you would see those people there so i'll tell you about this this i don't think i've ever brought this up i had time to really tell this story but so now i'm a ford model you know feeling good you know living the life having a great career i would go out often with katie ford and her husband andre balazs now andre was very handsome and charming um and the girls didn't really mind him being around um because he was very good looking uh but it was always this thing of like it's kind of weird like she's with this guy you know and then we would start seeing him a lot around a lot with whenever she wasn't around there would be uma was around you know with her men the actress i think he later married um so there was these things that were just right in your face um that didn't really make sense why these adults who were married were right having their mistress or whoever right in front of you they were just weird things like that so one day i'm at the agency and one of my bookers and katie was there and some of the old the other agents were there and were like you know we had a guy in the other day who was like checking out comp cards and was like oh who's lisa phillips like she's really cute and they were like um he's a really important person and you know we think you should go on a blind date with him and so i was just like are you serious like i've never gone on a blind date and they were like yeah you know you should go out with this guy and they were like you should go out with this guy and i was just like hey whatever and so you know they organized this blind date for me and so i remember being with my girlfriends by this time i lived in the upper east side and um i had got ready uh for this date and they had told me to wear like a really nice dress because we were going to a really nice dinner party and so they had their hand in all of this for the date and so i didn't think anything of it because i just thought i was gonna be some young hot guy it'd be fun you know it's so like it's so stupid but i'm like i'm gonna back then you know like who thinks about this kind of stuff and so um you just trust your agency and so i get all ready i'm in this like pretty dress and then i go running out i remember it was a range rover and i go to open the door and i'm like are we picking up your grandson and he's like no i'm like your son and he's like no and i'm like i'm going out with you and he was like yeah like get in it'll be fine just and i'm like i'm going out with you and he was like yeah like get in it'll be fine just and he's like no i'm like your son and he's like no and i'm like i'm going out with you and he was like yeah like get in it'll be fine just and i'm like i'm going out with you and he was like yeah like get in it'll be fine just get in you know i know and he get in you know i know and he get in you know i know and he names the bookers and stuff like that i'm like names the bookers and stuff like that i'm like names the bookers and stuff like that i'm like are you serious like i just couldn't believe it are you serious like i just couldn't believe it are you serious like i just couldn't believe it because the guy looks so old because the guy looks so old because the guy looks so old like like a grant my grandfather white like like a grant my grandfather white like like a grant my grandfather white hair he was old and i was just like i hair he was old and i was just like i hair he was old and i was just like i didn't understand it so didn't understand it so didn't understand it so i get in the car you know and he ends up i get in the car you know and he ends up i get in the car you know and he ends up being actually really nice being actually really nice being actually really nice he's a state senator oh they always are he's a state senator oh they always are he's a state senator oh they always are yeah yeah yeah he's a senator so i'm just like okay he's a senator so i'm just like okay he's a senator so i'm just like okay this man takes me around the corner this man takes me around the corner this man takes me around the corner upper east side near madison and 70 upper east side near madison and 70 upper east side near madison and 70 something around the corner from something around the corner from something around the corner from epstein's house epstein's house epstein's house we go into this house up into an we go into this house up into an we go into this house up into an elevator elevator elevator into this this beautiful dining area into this this beautiful dining area into this this beautiful dining area and where he seats me down for dinner and where he seats me down for dinner and where he seats me down for dinner and i'm sitting next to al gore and tippy and i'm sitting next to al gore and tippy and i'm sitting next to al gore and tippy and i'm just like and i'm just like and i'm just like this is your this is your 2000 2001 this is your this is your 2000 2001 this is your this is your 2000 2001 and i'm just like huh and i'm just like huh and i'm just like huh and i remember like you know i'm pretty and i remember like you know i'm pretty and i remember like you know i'm pretty excited about and i remember after the excited about and i remember after the excited about and i remember after the dinner you know so i just hold my own dinner you know so i just hold my own dinner you know so i just hold my own after the dinner i was like why did you after the dinner i was like why did you after the dinner i was like why did you bring me to this dinner i was like bring me to this dinner i was like bring me to this dinner i was like aren't you embarrassed to be there with aren't you embarrassed to be there with aren't you embarrassed to be there with me me me you know you're so much older than me he you know you're so much older than me he you know you're so much older than me he was like no was like no was like no it's no big deal and i'm like are you it's no big deal and i'm like are you serious serious serious and i remember asking him like i had no and i remember asking him like i had no and i remember asking him like i had no idea what they were saying the whole idea what they were saying the whole idea what they were saying the whole time and he was like oh if you just read time and he was like oh if you just read time and he was like oh if you just read the new york times every day you'll the new york times every day you'll the new york times every day you'll understand everything understand everything understand everything you know and i was just like this is you know and i was just like this is you know and i was just like this is just the weirdest world just the weirdest world just the weirdest world um um um and then he dropped me off at the at my and I remember running upstairs and telling my girlfriends, "You won't believe what just happened." I was like, "The. " -So, he just did dinner and dropped you off? -Yeah, it was just dinner. It was really nothing. Um, dropped me off. Granted, I never went back out with him again, 'cause now that I know how it works, probably would have been abused at some point. But I didn't-- I never went back out with that guy, 'cause I just thought, "How weird is that?" And I remember going back to my agency, like, the next day, or whenever I went in there, and being like, "You know, you hooked me up with a, like, a 70-year-old man." Who was sitting next to the dude who, I'm guessing by the timeline, had just lost the most contentious presidential election ever. Just casually. And why would you bring someone like me, you know, someone so young, with you to such an important dinner, with all, like, political people there, you know, the climate, everyone that was around, why would you be so, like, candid? Not to think that that's kind of-- I even said to him, "Aren't you embarrassed?" And he was like, "I'm embarrassed of me to be there with you." You know, there's probably, like, a 50-year-old-- I mean, a 50 age gap here. No, it was just nothing. Now I understand why it's nothing, you know? But back then, I just was like, "You guys are weird." And that was my model agency that put me on a blind date with this guy, knowing full well. And didn't even say to me, "Look, he's gonna be a little older than you." You know? Didn't even, like, say anything to me. like they just use and abuse you. You know, just like a little pawn in their whole little game. You know, they just don't really give a shit. They probably wouldn't have cared if I was assaulted by that guy that night. No, I don't think they would have. Yeah. I think that's probably part of the expectation. You were having enough fun doing the job of modeling and, as you said, having these other experiences around the world and whatever that you were able to kind of separate those two. But as someone who spent years as a model and then spent a lot of years working in the industry, as a modeling scout, like looking back on it now and knowing what you know, are you kind of like this is such a gross industry? Yeah. I mean, this was – yeah, I mean, that's the reason why I tapped out about two years ago. Yeah. I was like done. What was the breaking point? Well, I mean, all this stuff was coming up and I had been through these depositions with Virginia Giuffre. I was deposed for her case and with the J.P. Morgan. I found out lots of information. Bookmark that. We'll come back. Yeah. It's just so many things. And I was just like also sitting in the offices at one of the most prestigious agencies in the world and still having girls and boys come in saying, you know, this person touched me and this person like tried to hit on me and this person assaulted me. I'm like still – like this is still going on? Where's the protection? You know, and I just was getting fed up of it. So I really decided right in that moment like I'm getting out of this business and I'm going to go right into podcasting because that's the thing to go into. I'm going to start a podcast and I'm going to talk to survivors. I'm a survivor. I'm going to start telling my story and I'm going to listen to survivor stories. And I just ended up just doing it very quickly. About two years ago, I just went right into it and started doing it. Good for you. Yeah. Oh, I also have to hook you up with Sarah Edmondson as well. Yeah. I had her in here and she was really – her story was really amazing too. You guys would do a great podcast together. Yeah. But, you know, I – I think unfortunately when you now see something so blatantly made in the open and people not going to prison, you know, you ask yourself, wow, this stuff is still happening? Why? Well, here's why. Because other people look at it and they go, well, look, even those guys don't go to prison. Exactly. They were doing cannibal shit. Exactly. That's why someone like Pam Bondi had the responsibility to at least acknowledge people who have been assaulted. Acknowledge them. The fact that you don't even acknowledge them just spreads like wild fire throughout all survivors everywhere. Don't speak up. Yeah. And she's a woman too. You're not going to get anywhere. She's a woman too. That's really like double. You don't have – you have no idea how many people in the modeling business have been abused. I mean most models will be like me, two times, six times, ten times. It happens so much. You know, with young ambitious women, not just modeling, entertainment world, music world is even worse. You know, but anyone who's working their way up the ladder to, you know, have a successful career, you know, this stuff happens. It goes right back to the manipulation he did in the first conversation where he said he asked you about your dreams, your family and all the good stuff. You're talking about the most preeminent industry examples of places where that is. When you talk modeling, when you talk entertainment, when you talk Hollywood, it's like only a select few make it. You really want it, right? How bad do you want it? And they prey on that. Yeah. And unfortunately, that's how a lot of the sex trafficking rings today. That's the foundation of them. Yeah. You know, they prey on those dreams and that's how they say, oh, we'll come to Vegas, come to Vegas. And we're going to introduce you to the right people, whether it's the music business or whatever, and they come to Vegas. And then they're right into the trafficking ring. How did you, you said you got married in 06? Yes. How did you meet your husband? Do we have to go into that? You don't have to. No, no, no. Sorry. If that's not something. We're divorced. Your ex-husband, I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, I was in Malibu. It's a nice place. We don't have to talk about that. I had a beautiful, you know, I just, it wasn't. I didn't, I hadn't, I hadn't confronted my trauma. I hadn't gone through therapy and stuff. So I brought a lot of that into the relationship, chose someone who didn't end up being a very good relationship for me. And so I ended up raising my children all by myself. Wow. Yeah. You said you had two kids? Yeah, I ended up leaving him and moving to New York again in 2011 to. Two young boys and just realizing I have to do it all myself. Ended up going kind of back into the modeling world and many of the people that I knew helped me out and I started a scouting agency and protecting models, finding models and managing them and placing them with big agencies. So I was pretty successful working in that business and I had two little babies at the time and, and then found out a few months later that I was pregnant and that was really difficult for me because I already had two kids. Yeah. I had two young babies by myself and, and realized now I was pregnant with St. Father, but didn't even know, hadn't even shown or anything, you know, and I was three and a half months pregnant. So I ended up raising three boys, three young boys on my own. That's amazing though. Yeah. That you did that. Yeah. I can tell you through my thirties, entirely through my thirties, never was in any relationship. I raised my boys early from my thirties to, to, till I was 40 years old. Raised my kids all on my own. It was the best years of my life, but the hardest years of my life, you know, here in, in New York city. Yeah. It wasn't until 2017. I moved with my kids. I always promised my kids like mommy is going to make it. She's going to take care of you and we're going to move to Los Angeles and we're going to have a view of the ocean and we're going to have like the best life. And in 2017, I made that dream come true for them and moved them to Laguna beach. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. A little different than New York city. Yeah. I just wanted to be near the ocean and, you know, have little surfer babies and have that beautiful California life. And so, you know, I was able to give that to them, you know, um, yeah, but it wasn't until I was 40 when I started dating again, my kids were a little older. So when you're, when you're raising them on your own for all these years, though, like you said, you weren't confronting what had happened to you and everything. Did it change? Obviously like you're, you were. You were robbed your whole life around your kids and made unbelievable sacrifices for that. And they're clearly a great mom. Did it change at all? How you look at your kids from like a protective mother standpoint, once you went back and thought about the things that had happened to you and then kind of looked at them like, Oh my God. Oh yeah. I'm a very protective mom, but I mean, I want to have, I want to have independent children, you know, and I want them to think for themselves and do whatever they want to do in their lives. And I will always support them 100%. But I'm very protective. I'm very protective of them. I mean, as any parent should be. But through those years, it was just them and me, you know, and it was really, really beautiful. So I didn't have any relationships and I didn't want to, you know, I had a failed marriage. I just chose really the wrong person for myself. We had nothing in common. He was Norwegian descent and, you know, didn't really bond with them and basically kind of gave them up in a way. And so, you know, I was in survival mode, I think, through my 30s, building a business and basically in survival mode, just all by myself, living in New York City, which is not cheap, you know, and really did it all on my own. And it took me about two or three years and I, you know, had a successful business and I managed tons of models and, and really enjoyed it and then was offered a position, you know, at women management and the industry, industry models. And then I started traveling around the world again as a scout for a Japanese agency. And that's when I started going to all these countries and, and, you know, doing the big scouting work. You get to take your kids with you? For some, but not really. They were young. Yeah. I thank God for my mother-in-law. She, she would come and stay with the kids and stuff. Thank God for her. I would never have been able to have, you know, the career that I had without my in-laws, you know, taking care of the kids. Oh, so they're great. They stayed. They stayed in, in your life. Yeah, it was. Yeah. I mean, um, it wasn't so great in the beginning, you know, when I left their son, but, you know, after a while they, they love their grandkids and they were there for them. And anytime I would leave for, you know, a week at a time to take care of business and travel the world, you know, for my job, they would take care of the kids and I'm so grateful for them. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't mean to step into something personal there with your husband. The only reason I was asking. I just never, ever talk about him, so. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely fine with me. The only reason I was asking about that in general was because I was trying to figure out what, you know, mentally got you to a place to be able to trust someone enough to date them seriously and then marry them in the short years after, you know, you're being abused by Jeffrey. Like you said the last time you saw Jeffrey was 04. Is that right? Yeah. And I, and I left straight to Los Angeles. I was an actress. I had, you know, one of the best managers and talent agencies. I was auditioning. Thank you. you know um you know i i loved i love being actress and a model i really really loved it i just never really liked you know what i was really up against right which was you know it's a nefarious business it's not a very upfront and honest business um there's a lot of people that just want to take advantage of you and i could clearly see that um because of the level where i was what i was working at and the friends that i knew um i could clearly see what was going on and i didn't like it so you know my husband you know he was norwegian descent um and it was a sweet man and he was in commercial real estate and i really believed in him and i really thought i was you know going to marry him i mean let's face it i was pregnant but i i was trying to make things work with him you know i really wanted things to work and be with him but um you know found out very quickly that you know wasn't going to be a really good relationship so it wasn't really my choice you know not to be with the father of my kids but it just um just you know the way it happened yeah now you had talked about like over these years you see jeffrey very intermittently and sometimes there's abuse other times there weren't would there be something like in a time where you went and talked with him and had a conversation where it didn't end in abuse would it be because it's in a public place or something like that is that the only reason it wouldn't happen or i think the only reason why it didn't happen was because there was someone else there that he could abuse oh like for instance i was brought to his house for a couple parties he would call me like i'm out with my friends i'll bring your friends you know that kind of thing and just naively just being okay like thinking it's another like party to go to um but then you'd walk in and you go up until like the the i guess it was the the library with a big table and there was just all these old men sitting around like these nerdy old men and it's like okay why are we here you know stuff like that you know galane would be there sometimes you know but there would be a much older man did you ever talk with her at length i mean i met her yes yeah um well i mean she was from or went to school in oxford and i lived in oxford growing up you know when i was young and so you know had some conversation with her and what did you think of her oh she was very charming and eloquent and you know beautiful and stylish and definitely was charming and you know just that's all i thought about her i didn't really think anything else um i didn't really know anything back then about her like like we do now so um but she was very much interested in getting to know the other girls you know and she was definitely an organizer of the only woman there with a bunch of men um so definitely like the organizer of of the girls being introduced to the men or a couple friends like sitting on their laps and things like that and it was definitely a flirty environment i mean i found out years later i one of my friends was brought into the room a room with one of the other men and assaulted and things so um how did that make you feel when you found that out well it wasn't it didn't make me feel good you know since i had brought them there um it made me feel really bad about that but i i didn't know then really what happened this was years later i found out about it so i wasn't really told like we weren't really like i said right nobody really said anything about it back then what when when you would be invited to a party like this and then they'd say bring friends and then you do and you've had bad things happen to you but then you also said you had that other side of the relationship where he's like oh he's kind of a mentor and helping my career is that like kind of looking back on you as as as a young very young woman when this was happening is that kind of what made you be like yeah it'll be fine if they're there with me it'll be fine like is there that thought in your head that like nothing will happen if it's all of us there no well not really i just i just knew that anyone who knew him benefited from it i would say that they got kind of what they wanted so it's a lot of times they wanted to meet him so like a lot of times i didn't want to introduce my friend but it's like oh your friend helped you get that out can i meet him it was like that kind of thing you know and so these are my really close friends it wasn't like i went and right picked somebody off and in the street and they're like okay i'm gonna meet coming in it's my really good friends like what you know you got to go to nyu you know or you got to do and it's like oh well okay if you want to meet him like knowing well well he does like these creepy massages and just so you know you know like it was kind of like that you did say that sometimes you know um but i don't think i ever thought or knew that they would be assaulted sometimes you and a lot of survivors say this like a lot of times you think it's only you because they're not saying that it happened to them you know so um i didn't really know the extent of these assaults until you know modern day i didn't really know then what was what was really going on with them i mean sometimes you would ask them and they would say no so i didn't you have to understand the way we think about epstein today is nothing like we thought back then a lot of people just didn't really talk about him so much that's right you didn't have this top of the iceberg scraped back then yeah until it became a conversation that was that wasn't until late 2003 to early 2004 when it became a conversation i think it was even after that right well not me five well well he was still involved with a lot of my friends and other people to oh five oh six but for me i was out early 2004 okay and it was only because a girlfriend of mine came to came to me and said that she was abused through jeffrey you know and she said she said she went to go see him on the upper east side apartment i guess a mansion um i guess it had never been that bad but there was a situation where he had told her with that demon look in his eyes like you need to go in that room right now and you need to have sex with with him and she was scared and she did it she went into the room and somebody came in had sex with her just dismissed her and left it was a kind of this quick thing which fucked her up you know because that wasn't what she was wanting or expecting and then from there that's when that's when everything opened up because then she was the first one to say this man made me do something it's like what he like he made you and then we started questioning like well i wonder if like when he would call us to go maybe that's what he wanted us to do you know but this was this was like a forced thing with her like virginia jeffrey explains in her book go do that you know um and so when she said that she was just like you have no idea who jeffrey is and like what are you talking about like what do you mean and so we called the friends over and we're all talking like what do you mean what did he make you do what's going on here so it was more of like this oh my gosh are you serious this this type of conversation that we never had before so this is three to four years in um now you hear it from other people yeah and things are unraveling yeah so it's a completely different um way of thinking about this man did you guys at any point in that conversation when this is coming out did someone suggest to call the police or something like that or was it assumed that it's like yo this guy's powerful we need to stay away well we talked about it um about contacting the fbi there were there was definitely talk about it but nobody wanted to do it we just wanted to to what we talked about was just the best way to get away from him so we didn't have to see him again that was just what we spoke about i know i'm not quite sure if she ever saw him again after that i've been thinking no because she moved away after i moved away we all just try to get away from new york where he knew that he spent most of his time and he would before this though he would like call you you were saying too so that would be a lot of the contact where he's like go meet with this person in hollywood or go do this audition then ask you about it afterwards that was a lot of your communication with him right well in person yes or maybe a phone call that's when he was pretty serious because he's right to the point yeah um but sometimes it would be the secretary's calling for things and you would you would have the chance to say no or i'm out of town or tell him i'm out of town you know but i think it's a good thing that maybe they would just try to hound somebody else to do something you know um i never really thought that those horrible things were happening i just kind of thought okay if he sent me for an audition and i was assaulted or somebody tried to have sex with me that it was that separate situation between the two of us i had no idea that it was because of he was sending me for that reason thank you guys for checking out this clip if you haven't already subscribed please subscribe and hit the like button on this video it is a huge huge help and if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode that link is in the description below or right here and finally you can follow me on instagram and x by using the links in my description below