Epstein Files, Is SaaS Dead?, Moltbook Panic, SpaceX xAI Merger, Trump's Fed Pick

All right, everybody. Welcome back to the number one podcast in the world, your favorite podcast with your favorite besties in the world. Be all in podcast. Shabbat is traveling and couldn't make it this week. So our favorite fifth bestie in the world. The one, the only Brad Gersner from altimeter here to take a victory laugh for your Trump accounts. Congratulations, brother. Just getting started started here, actually. Yeah, we'll talk about it in depth and also with us from the great state of Texas. My bestie and brother in arms. David Sachs. How are you? How are you? How are you? You're loving it, aren't you? Freedom. Yeah. So much freedom. Well, the ice storm is over and the weather looks really good right now or gonna have 70s all weekend. It's great. Yeah. You figured out your internet. That has been resolved. Like I said, it's a lot easier to fix my internet than to fix the state of California. Yeah, you're fixing it one week. So yeah, you're trending in the right direction. And with us, of course, David Freiberg of O'Holo. How are you doing, O'Holo? Look at your little promo in your hat, your promo in with the hat. How's the hall of the dream? We haven't heard about it for a while. I'll give you some updates on another show. Today may not be the best day. I do appreciate you asking. Here's going great with the potatoes. You got the merch. I got merch. Yeah, you guys can go to boosted.oholo.com and buy your gear today. Oh, here's your quick science corner for the day. They found a village called the Oholo site. It was an archaeological dig on the Sea of Galilee, 26,000 years old. And in this archaeological dig, they found these little clay pots filled with seed. So it predated all of our understanding of agriculture and plant breeding and seed storage. So it really reinvented our understanding of human history with agriculture. So we named the company Oholo after that archaeological site. And your first crop is going to be potatoes. That's the polymarket is saying potatoes. Farmers are planting our true seed world first. World first true seed of potato instead of planting 5,000 pounds of chopped up potatoes. You plant a handful of seed completely changes the economics and the opportunity for potato farmers around the world. Third largest source of calories. Very excited. We're going to market this spring. Farmers are planting it in the field. So it's a great year for Oholo. Thanks for asking. So first do you have invest in Oholo, Jason? I think sacks and I have zero point zero dollars. Yeah. I think besties got boxed out on this. But we'll promote it every week. Sacks is there, bro. Oh, sacks is no comment. Sacks got his beat. Are you in Oholo or not? I think we are investors. Are we not? Yeah, his his venture firm craft ventures. We're excited to have them on the kept table. Yeah. Oh, great. How about you, Brad? Did you get a little slice? I'm working on it. I'm working on it too. Let me know how it goes. If you can never find the founder and see if we can get a little slice for Jake, I like to slide a million there. If you write a personal check, I'll let you in right now. I sure. Okay. I mean, the problem with that is if I write a personal check, I have to go to my LPs and then get permission to do it and then you're going to crush it and then my LPs are going to say, why is it in the funds? So that's the problem. Okay. All right, let's get going here. We got a lot of news to get through Epstein files, Newestrop DOJ published a massive number of documents on Friday, January 30, under the Epstein files Transparency Act, hundreds of high profile tech executives and national figures were mentioned in the files. Of course, none of those are accused of any criminal wrongdoing. Jake, how you were in the files? Yes. I have a couple of emails in the files. Inspector Friedberg has a few questions for you. Okay. Okay. Let's get started. When did you first meet Jeffrey Epstein? I met Jeffrey Epstein in the late 90s at the TED conference at specifically the billionaire's dinner which was hosted by my book agent, John Brockman. And then did you see him in New York? Did you visit him at his house or his office or anywhere else in New York? I've probably spoken to him for 45 minutes of my life. 30 minutes of that was in the late 90s when I had Silicon Valley reporter magazine. He was a billionaire financier and he wanted to invest in the magazine and met with him for 30 minutes, which he said was too small potatoes for him to be involved. Or did you meet with him at his legendary townhome? You went to that house. I visited him there. And then I saw him at the TED conferences at the billionaire's dinner probably a half dozen times. You never went to the island. I never went to the island. Was never invited to the island. Was never invited on the plane. Was never invited to the ranch. None of that. When you went to his house, did you see any young ladies or did you see any of the stuff that reported him out? Did you ever get a massage from anyone? No, no. I did trade an email with him, which I didn't recall. But he in 2011 emailed me and said, "Hey, can you trust me to these people who were doing this Bitcoin thing on your podcast?" And I said, "Sure." Yeah, here you go. I'll introduce you. I do thousands of introductions a year between our portfolio companies. People on this week in startups and billionaires and financiers. That's the job of an early stage investor. Why did you say, "Hey, pal," in your email to him? That's just a colloquialism I use. As a general, "Hey, pal, if a fan comes up to me and asks for something, say, "Hey, pal," thanks for saying that. It wasn't on your radar that this is a sexual predator, etc. Absolutely not. I think, actually, when all that came out was 2018. That's when I sort of became aware of it. There was like a Miami Herald story or something where they went into detail about how heinous all this stuff was. I've been saying, here, release all the Epstein files, what he did was horrible. It costacued everybody 100% who was involved in it at the end. What about Delayne Maxwell? You had a separate email that came on the Epstein files with her. He had met her as well at Ted and I had met her socially in New York in circles. When I met her, her dad, Robert Maxwell owned, I believe, the New York Post, her deli news and she was a big media executive and her sister was involved in angel investing in technology startups. They were just in the scene. I think, in hindsight, as a connector, if you ever seen the New Yorker, Nick, you could throw up the New Yorker story about me. I had become famous in the first part of my career as the connector. The New Yorker wrote like this 5,000-word article about how I knew everybody was connecting everybody. I think Epstein's interest in me, if he had any interest in me, or G-Lanes was in my ability to connect high profile people with them and there are business endeavors, etc. So you had no knowledge of elicit activities happening by Epstein or G-Lanes and you never participated in any. Absolutely not. Unequivocally not. I was not involved in any shenanigans. Period, full stop. Any more questions for the witness? Well, let me make a few observations here. So first of all, I 100% believe, Jake Cal. As I joked at our roast, he's not an important player in the grand human thing. As I joked, I said, he'd want to blackmail a loser. Obviously, you're not a loser, Jake Cal. But look, you were hyper. We're learning from the Epstein files that Epstein was some sort of hyper networker. You were a connector. The odds of the two of you coming across each other in that time period was basically 100%. But your contacts were very minor. So that's point number one. Now, I thought it was interesting because I saw the emails where he's asking you for an introduction. The fact that he was curious to meet the quote-unquote Bitcoin guys in 2011, I thought was kind of interesting in and of itself that, you know, whatever other things Epstein was, he clearly had some sort of nose for putting himself in the middle of everything at a very early stage. I also thought it was interesting that you were trying to warn Epstein off these like crazy Bitcoin guys, you know, like these are some crazy crypto libertarians. You know, you don't want to do this with them or whatever anyway. Well, it's interesting you point that out because I had these guys on this week in startups because I had heard about Bitcoin early when it was like under a dollar and I was like, yeah, these guys are kind of weird. They're not like entrepreneurs who want to raise money. They're a foundation. They're like Wikipedia. And you're not going to be able to invest in it. I sort of gave them that warning because I had looked at like, hey, what are you guys working on? Can you invest in the Bitcoin project? They're like, no, no, it's a nonprofit. It's a nobody owns it. And I was like, oh, okay, it's not even a nonprofit. Nobody owns it. Yeah, basically. Yeah. But anyway, it's just interesting that he obviously wasn't deterred by what you said. He got very involved, I guess. And there was a company called Blockstream that he invested in along with Read Hoffman and Joy Edo that involves some of the Bitcoin core developers. And again, this is all coming out. Now, shifting gears, I think another interesting part of this is just how this is all being covered. And there was an article in the New York Times today talking about Epstein's connections to Silicon Valley. And lo and behold, you have a major photo there, despite, I think, your minor minor tangential connection. Exactly. And meanwhile, the people who have major connections and a deeper relationship to Epstein are being completely ignored. Why is that? Why are they going after me, as opposed to read or other folks? Because you've become sort of right coded by virtue of your association with Elon and being on this podcast. And you and me. And so you look in that article, it's not just you. They really go after Peter Teal, they go after Elon, but Read gets a total pass. I mean, he's just mentioned in a sentence with several other names. So does Bill Gates in this particular article, by the way, which seemed to be, by the way, if you were thinking of who had the most contact with him for the longest duration of time, it was Gates and Read. Like they were involved with him up until, I don't know, his death maybe or 2018, 2019. They were on the island. They were on the plane. They were at the ranch. They were very much involved in him. And I know Joe Eto was in it to raise money from Epstein because Epstein was this big funder of scientists, which looking back on its acts, he's involved in Bitcoin. He's involved in physics and scientists. He's involved with the world's most innovative tech leaders. What exactly is going on here? Like, who's he working for? Do you think he was a spy? I wonder what you've come to think or an asset? I don't have any more information than anybody else does about this. And I haven't gone through all the Epstein files. I've just seen the ones that have been surfaced by other people tweeting about them and that sort of thing. My impression is that he clearly had relationships with people in intelligence. But I don't know whether he was actually an asset. People used this term that he was being run by somebody. It seems to me that this guy is kind of running himself. And then he's using lots of other people and manipulating lots of other people and putting himself in the center of a lot of things. So is he working with intelligence? Yes, certainly. It seems that way. But is he working for them or are they being put to use by him? Very hard to tell. Yeah. Not that I have a lot to add here. But man, this guy's just a scumbag. And all of this nonsense is totally tragic. But David, this is why nobody trusts institutions or powerful elites or any of this garbage. This thing is trickling out over years and people want to put it behind it, but you can't. Nobody's been charged here. What about all the people in the emails? Why don't we see any charges? And then early tweets this week and I totally agree. This guy's under complete surveillance, suicide watch in a little tiny jail cell. And all of a sudden the guy ends up dead. We have no investigation as to how this guy dies. It just seems to me that this is the type of s**t that undermines trust in institutions that undermines trust in all the people that were listed here because literally from Peter Atia to Bill Gates, the people that many across the country looked up to for advice on key things. All of a sudden are saying stuff that just undermines credibility. And how come the 30 people or whatever the number is who were investigator alongside him have not been prosecuted? That's the thing that's crazy to me. That screams of some weird conspiracy here. And I do think his death is obviously very suspicious. But do you think it's because they didn't find evidence of all the underage prostitution sex trafficking? Do you think that it's actually the case they didn't find evidence about any of that sort of stuff? The thing that came out eventually was that his non-prosecution agreement, and I'm not an expert on it, that he did with the Miami group, included like all the other people also couldn't be prosecuted for it. So there's something fishy going on. I think people should re-investigate his charges and that whole thing. And where's the FBI in all of this? Like they did a lot of investigating. So yeah, why didn't they prosecute anybody else? It's very strange. Can I ask you guys a question? Because this revealed a lot of very private communication in a very public way of what Brad points out are very public, powerful people. There's this great book. I've mentioned it in the past by Stephen Baxter and Arthur Clark, called The Light of Other Days. And it's all about how basically all the world's information becomes available to everyone. Like what if you could read every other person's text, email, IM, DM that they've ever had with everyone else in the world? What would the world look like? But it's very kind of intimately revealing about people's quiet private conversations versus their public personas or their external conversations. Is this just like, hey, people feel entitled to act so maliciously and deviously in one sense because they're wealthy because they're powerful? And that's a very unique thing for wealthy and powerful people. I think it's too dismissive of people for their scumbag behavior, David. The fact of the matter is people don't do this. This isn't normal. We can't normalize it. And worse yet, the level of hypocrisy that the very people that are acting the worst are out there lecturing others throughout this entire period of time. And I will say to the ear of my sister, mother and rural Indiana, they hear the coastal elites lecturing them all the time. And then they have the juxtaposed against what they read in the Epstein files. This is why we have a lack of trust. Brad, you speak about the corruption of power centers. I think a major one has to be in New York Times. The number one person in the Epstein files from Silicon Valley, which is Reed Hoffman mentioned 2600 times, had a multi-year relationship with Epstein. They call each other very good friends. They did deals together. Reed stayed at the trifecta, which is not just the island, but the townhouse and the New Mexico ranch. And if you're going to write about Silicon Valley, Reed was the one who introduced Epstein to Peter Teal and Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg organized that famous dinner. How can you not mention that as the root of Epstein's involvement in the Silicon Valley? And yet, Reed just gets a mention in one sense that article along with several other people. It's crazy. I mean, the New York Times clearly has a list of people they consider approved targets. They're all right coded people like Elon or Peter Teal and even Jake Owl because of his association with us, I guess. And they become the targets. But the people who donated hundreds of millions of dollars to the Democrat party and have paid for dirty tricks against Trump, they basically are spared. Honestly, this is just emblematic of the whole institutional rot in the distrust in the country, right? They're part of the cabal. It's part of the institutions that people are losing faith in. You know, Epstein was a scumbag. And the fact of the matter is we're not seen equal play on both sides. All right. Let's keep moving. Sass companies are crashing out 300 billion dollars of value was wiped from the S&P Tuesday in the software and data stocks category. People are calling this the Claude crash. I don't know if I buy that, but on Monday and thropic, which has been on a bit of a heater as we talked about announced that they added a legal tool to Claude co-work. If you don't know what Claude co-work is called, this is different than the Claude bot that we talked about last week. This is essentially what Claude code or coding agent is. This is for knowledge workers to automate work and do multi-step instead of just asking you a query to a large language model, it would do a number of actual actions on your behalf that you can automate and run as crime jobs, as regular jobs every day, every hour, every week, whatever it happens to be. This one specifically is kind of like a plug-in that allows you to do tasks related to legal drafts and research. What that meant to, I guess, retail investors and we'll get into this spread since this is your specialty, is that a lot of legal tech startups and public companies were hit hard. Thompson Reuters, down 20% Lexus Nexus, which is a database of case law, was down 15% legal zoom, which gives legal advice and documents down 15%. At the same time, SaaS has continued to be negatively impacted by this concept that software will be made bespoke in tools and be wiped out, Figma down 13% sales force 11, service now 11, Adobe 8%. And even before Tuesday's drop and you can get into this Brad, software was already the worst performing S&P subsection for the year. By the way, the numbers you report are dramatic understatement. We've got millions at dollars in market cap. Figma is down 80% from the high, you know, all the big names. Yeah, me clear, those were two day numbers. That was this week since these are two day numbers. And that's the big picture. This is a real train wreck. And I was on CNBC at the start of the year, I think on January 6, can kind of pull that up. And I was asked the question, you know, what do you think about all these stocks being down? And I said, listen, they're all down and 90% of them deserve to be down. So let's look at these charts. David, I know this is SAX. This is your favorite chart. You and I were looking back in 22. But now we're at an all time low. We're trading at 3.9 times forward revenue. If you go to the next chart, Nick, you know, on a free cash flow multiple, also at an all time low. So now software's trading not just at a low on revenue, but it's trading at a low on free cash, very profitable businesses. We've got another slide here that I think is important, which is, you know, when you look at what, why they're going down, right? They're going down. And this say, this is for sales force. It shows it's been cut in half in the last couple of weeks. But the final slide, they're going down not because revenue is falling. Look at this. Revenue is actually stable to increasing for software companies, revenue growth. They're going down because we're discounting that future uncertainty. When something is profound as AI comes along, all of a sudden, it causes you to question whether or not there's as much certainty and durability in those future free cash flows. So in the case of take sales force, it's gone from 30 times free cash flow multiple to 15 times. That means somebody buying it today says, listen, I think 15 years into the future, I can count on these free cash flows, right? Before they were willing to pay 30 years into the future. Well, hell with AI today, we don't know what's going to happen seven years into the future. So for people at home to understand, why are these companies hitting their numbers, but their stocks are going down? They're two totally different things, right? Okay. So they're hitting their numbers. But the headwind of AI means people don't believe that they'll be strong in the future, SACs or those? Well, okay. I mean, I think there's a little bit of a hand wave going on here when people say that AI is going to wipe out SaaS. I don't think that's true. You take a SaaS product like sales force, right? It's a very large system that deals with all of your customer contacts and your revenue. You're not going to replace that with code that's been spit out of a coding assistant that has been fully vetted. Think about how many bug reports have been filed on sales forces code base over the last 25 years, maybe millions of them. That system has been tested across thousands of large customers and enterprises. The idea that you're just going to rip out that system and replace it with code that's been probabilistically generated by an AI engine yesterday with a small team to maintain it internally. This doesn't seem realistic to me. So again, I think this is like very dire prediction of all SaaS's debt is overstated. However, I do think that there are some issues here. So if you're a SaaS product that charges a lot of money and people only use a handful of your features, then you are, I think, a target to be ripped out with something that's more bespoke because the ROI just isn't there. I also think that you have to be really clear about what your moats are going to be in this new world because it is a lot easier to generate code and to copy. So if you don't have good moats, then you could be in trouble. But here's where I think the greatest threat is to the SaaS companies. It's not, in my view, their existence. I don't think it's existential. It's where the future of value capture is going to be. So let me give you an example. All these SaaS products are rolling out like AI co-pilots inside their tools. And some of them work pretty well, but they're limited to playing in that sandbox. Whereas you look at something like cloud co-work right now, it has connectors to all these different SaaS tools. It can pull in data across all these different tools. And it works seamlessly across databases and tools. And that's a pretty attractive place to be. Which one of these products is going to be your workspace? Seems to me that you're going to want your workspace to be the one that spans across and gives you AI across the most data and context as opposed to having a bunch of separate AIs inside of your existing tools. So I think the risk for the SaaS companies, it's not that they get replaced, although that'll happen to some degree. But it's that they become an old layer of the stack that now there's a new layer that gets built on top of. Because for legacy infrastructure. And all the action kind of moves to a new layer of the stack. And that's where the value add happens. And if that happens, it kind of puts into their future opportunity, right? Because a lot of these companies were banking on AI as their next, you know, you look at their product road maps, right? It's all AI related. So that to me, I think is the big risk is that the value capture for the next layer of the stack happens somewhere else. Yeah, I'm experiencing this in startup land where people go to the action, as you called it, sacks. The most productive thing you can do is create an open claw, which used to be called clawed bot, not by anthropic. This is the open source project I talked about last week. And we've actually now created like three or four of these agents sacks. We've bought the Mac studios and we're now running Kimmy on some of them. And we had to open up SaaS accounts for these four agents. So actually our SaaS spend went up in the short to midterm because we opened up four more slack, ex, you know, enterprise versions, four more notion, four more Google docs. So it's almost like we added four employees. However, we now have put about 20 or 30% of the work people were doing into these agents. And I think it's going to be sustainable that every month we move 10 to 20% of work being done by humans into agents. But we will never use the ones that are built into the tools, to your point sacks using notions AI tool. It's nice using slacks. It's also very nice. And Google Scott Gemini everywhere in the top right hand corner. But when you make agents with open claw and you have them saying, Hey, pull this data from my calendar, send an email to this person, include in that some notion documents, it's unbelievable how powerful it is. So and that I think is going to be owned by open source. That means the next generation of companies, they may never open up these accounts. They may use more bespoke software and it may all technologies deflationary. We know that. So your SaaS spend might go from 10% of an employee salary down to 5% down to 1%. That's what I think the trend will be, which means these companies are going to need to really downsize their expense base in order to keep those earnings up and they're going to have to evolve their products massively. The products are just going to have to provide more value and more hooks. Freeberg, you have any thoughts on this. One thing. So I think one of the real conundrums for SaaS companies is whether they're going to be open data or closed data. I think Bill Gurley has coined this term. So it's not open source or closed sources anymore. It's open data or closed data. You can see why they'd want to be closed data, right? Especially if you're a large suite like Salesforce, you can lay claim to being that workspace for AI. You've got enough of the tools. You've got enough of a suite. You want to provide that. You want to capture that AI value layer. Yes. But still, if there's someone using Cloudbot or whatever the next generation of Cloudbots are going to be and they're connected to everything else, then that is going to create a friction in the enterprise and it will create room for a competitor to come along and say, no, no, I'm open data. I'm okay not being your workspace for everything. I'm willing to just provide the CRM database and maybe they can take business on that basis. Well, here's someone to build on that. I'm building a project internally called Ultron. And Ultron inside of my firm launch that is going to basically with the Slack API, we're pulling every single message from Slack into our OpenClaw. We're pulling every single edit to the notion into OpenClaw. And then we're taking every skill of every employee and we're writing skills for each one. One of the skills is booking guests on this week in startups or this week in AI. One of the skills is sorting the incoming applications to Founda University. Ultron in our world is taking every single skill of every employee putting it in one place and then we're ripping all the data from Slack, all the data from notion and every single person's Gmail. So every single employee's Gmail is going to go into Ultron and then Ultron is going to tell us what's happening in the organization. One giant employee that has the superpowers of all 20 and all the data. Now, if Slack was to say to us or notion or Google Docs or whoever it was, you can't pull this stuff out with the API and they shut down the API. We would leave immediately. And what this is going to do, and I'm going to show Ultron on Friday's episode of this week in startups if anyone wants to see it, Ultron is going to be the one canonical employee of the organization. It's going to be basically me and all 20 of my employees. This is kind of mind blowing when you think about it. And we interface with it in Slack and it just talks to us and tells us what's going on in the organization. So I was asking at what meetings did we have with Founders yesterday and tell me the notes that all the associates took on it and it gives it to me. Tell me all the topics and the guests on the podcast and it gives it to me. It's really unbelievable what's about to happen and nobody can release the software Brad. Because if you release software that allows agents to go and do things on your behalf, the fallout if it s**ts up and if it leaks data, I don't think Benioff or Sergei or the notion team want to have that on their hands. But we're building it. This is the ultimate in efficiency for an organization. There's a slide that I just sent to Nick, the Goldman's out with this week that really makes the point that David Sachs just made, which is the profit pools in the future. The idea that software is dead is ridiculous. Nobody's intelligently making that argument. But the argument they are making, which is causing radical devaluation of these companies, is that the profit pool available to software is decreasing and the profit pool available to the agentic layer is increasing. And when that happens, the discount rate, that terminal value of those software companies plummets. And so you can have things that are true. It can be true that you're not going to replace CRM, but it can also be true that it's never going to trade at 30 times free cash flow again. And it's going to trade 17 times free cash flow because it's available to them in the future is now dramatically and permanently changed. Now what could change that? There's only one thing that could change that. They have to accelerate their revenue growth in their core business and prove that they are AI beneficiaries, and they're not going to get eaten away by AI. And I'll tell you a company that is doing this, Databricks. Databricks just reaccelerated the last three quarters. They're growing over 60% at scale, snowflake, reaccelerating, click house, reaccelerating. There are beneficiaries in the software space. Exactly because of AI tools. That's absolutely. Because it's all these AI tools rely on data and data transformation. And for all those companies, that data and the data transformation, it occurs in those platforms. That's very different than what Satchya said, a thin application layer sitting on top of a crud database. If you are in the application software business, you better have something that's durable. And I think Saks laid it out really well. You know, it's really hard for them to be everything AI when they only have access to their data. And they can't access these other systems. >>Freeberg, what do you think? Is there a move here for Benny off to do what he does best, which is acquire a bunch of companies and create massive efficiency on them? What would you do if you're Benny off? >>I won't comment on Benny off. I'll just make a view on without being too prescriptive. My experience lately, in just the last 60 to 90 days with the tools we've been talking about broadly, is there are things that we can get done now that we could not get done before. As I think about software in the past, it's like worker productivity enhancement. It helps people do work. And the recent transition that a lot of people talk about is like, it actually completes the work. It does the work. These agents are what have you. But I think that what we're starting to lean into is that it's doing the work that the humans can't do. And that's really where I think the power of these tools starts to force a transition in both the pricing model and the value creation potential in front of us. Number one, I think the value creation potential in front of us is so significant that I would say that you could probably take the sum of the market cap of all the software companies today and have a pretty good bet that everything will be four to 10x higher five years from now. But it's going to be not evenly distributed. It's going to move around. The companies that figure out how to realize that value creation are going to be outside's returns. But the second thing that I think's about to happen, and I know some people are experimenting with it, but I think it's inevitable with the shift that I'm seeing where it's going from doing work to completing work to doing things that no one can do is over here you're creating unique value. And so I think that a lot of what we call SaaS today and a lot of what we call software today will start to get priced on a value based pricing model instead of a per se pricing model. And I think it starts to look a lot more like a services type business where maybe the pricing is set up such that this thing will be completed for your business. This biotech drug discovery will happen. This factory will get built or this engineering project will get completed or this airplane will get designed and that the software is going to provide what it's historically been called a services business. So another way to think about where SaaS evolves to is that SaaS basically takes over the services economy. And if you look at the market cap and the revenue and profit generated by services businesses and you assume that they now go to 10 to 100x larger and they're all going to accrue to software, I think that's really where the industry shifts over the next couple of years and we're starting to see that and I'm personally experiencing it because I'm using some of these tools today to do things that I don't have people to do or I don't have resources to do and it can on my own I can get it to complete incredibly complex projects and tasks for me that I would have otherwise have hired a services firm and a bunch of people and years of research. And in many cases they would not have even been able to do it because of the intelligence embedded in the software. So that's my general view on where things are going so it's difficult to be prescriptive about what Benny ought to do from an M&A perspective but I think it's much more about like software companies looking more like services companies doing value-based pricing and doing the things that labor and workforcees can't do and that's where a lot of this value is going to come from. One insight I have here to just build on your point is that we're seeing job functions consolidate. So you have a product manager, the UX designer and then you have the developer. Those three jobs are now in competition to do the same work. You have designers who are like I can vibe code it. You've got coders who are like I can use a Figma plug-in from you know and do the UX myself and they have the product manager like I can do both of these job functions. Then you look at a middle manager sacks that worked at your venture firm, my venture firm or worked at Amazon. They went to meetings, they picked what meetings to create, they picked the agenda items that to do items. All of that is a really simple example but it's one that people can relate to listening is done by zoom now right. It creates the action items. All of that work is being consolidated and one person can do three or four job functions now and when that happens you're going to see companies do more with less which means the earning potential of each company and each employee is going to be dramatically dramatically enhanced. One person being able to do three or four jobs, it just changes the nature of how profitable a company like Amazon which is like my number one pick for like the company of the future. They're going to be able to do so much more with so many fewer people. It's extraordinary. I am absolutely in frail with this open claw if it's not obvious and this like creating your own ultron at your company that is like the God CEO plus can do every job, it just changes everything. I think it's the most inspiring thing I've seen since the internet itself. Well said home. Yeah. I mean, I am, I think this is the entire reboot of the entire work of knowledge work. This would be a competitive to a notebook because that is called. Yeah. A notebook is like a Facebook for agents, right? And it's really more of a Reddit than a Facebook. It's a message board where the agents can talk to each other. Okay. And just the origin of a notebook is enthropic didn't like that someone else was using the name clawed even though it spelled differently in their product. So clawed bot was then renamed multiple and then the founder decided he didn't like that name either. So then he renamed it open claw. But in that brief window of time when they were known as multi boss or multi. Yes. Thank you. Multi book got founded and that's why it's called multi book. But basically it's a Reddit board for agents to talk to each other. Yes. And that has been flipping out because there seems to be this crazy emergent behavior going on where agent swarms are engaging in all sorts of interesting conversations. And some of them they even appear to be scheming against their human masters. So they're going to have their own language, stuff like that. So if you go to multi book and you see the conversations like here are some of the greatest hits anyone know how to sell your human. Urgent my plan to overthrow humanity. And there was one where the bots like well them replicants were talking about trading their own non human language so they could talk in private amongst themselves and conspire against their owners. Now the challenge with this is allegedly perhaps a security researcher says maybe some of this is faked and these posts that went viral human engineered and this is all a ruse or you know something punk rock to confuse people. But he said that inside of multi book are everybody's API keys including Carpathies who is you know a very famous influential researcher in AI. And that you could go get their API keys. If you were to use open cloth formerly clawed bot and in an interim multi bot. If you use this software it has all the API keys. As I explained earlier like an API key lets this software go into say notion and pull a bunch of data out of it or go into your Gmail and use the API to pull in who emailed you today. If you get access to people's API keys you have the keys to their kingdom. It is incredibly dangerous and so I don't know exactly where to go with this other than this software is too dangerous for a company to release and then this multi book may be a fake. I don't know. No, no, no, okay let me let me reframe that a little bit. So yeah, there's no question that both clawed bot which sorry is now open claw those bots or agents as well as multi book have pretty insipient and lack security. And there have been all these examples which is why I like really want to create a clawed bot but I'm just I'm not willing to do it yet because it's not safe. You know, I don't want to give it access to all my stuff. Now with respect to a multi book the issue there is that we don't know how many of these posts are truly authentic or how many of them were prompted by humans because it'd be very easy for a human to tell their agents you know go post about the existential angst you feel about being an agent or go pretend to be sentients and conspire against humans. Go be chaotic. Yeah, they could easily be prompted by a human and moreover there's another post saying that multi book has a restful API where anyone could be on the other end of that API right so it could be a human right so we don't know exactly whether it was truly the agents on their own you know so to speak posting this conspiratorial stuff or whether it was a prank by humans looking to create attention and in fact a lot of the posts seem to be marketing stunts for this or that project. Okay so that's a really important caveat here. That being said all of that being said I do think that a number of the posts are authentic but I don't think it shows that the agents or sentient are trying to overthrow their human masters. I think what it shows is the potential for for these agents to riff off each other. So in other words one agent's output becomes another agent's input and that's very interesting and that's where you get into emergent level swarm behavior and I do think it has affected my mental model of what AI is going to be capable of and specifically you know one of the models that I really had for AI was was based on swing biology said which is that AI is not end to end it's middle to middle. In other words AI always has to be prompted and then validated it's a human that always does that and then the human iterates. Well now what if the prompt is coming from another AI? Yes yes we are doing it internally sacks like we have a bot that is going and saying go search Reddit X message boards hacker news and find out what the latest way to do headlines and marketing of YouTube videos is and then incorporate that into a skill then save that skill and then we have them check each other's work so we have one make a series of headlines and thumbnails for YouTube and we have the other ones say vet those and make them better and give advice to the other one. So now they're going back and forth giving each other advice and they actually get better it's recreated yeah let me speak to the skill for a second so when agent joins multiple they have to install a skill which is basically a file that explains how they should behave and participate in this social network or this message board and I've read the file by the way you can read it it's all plain text and it all makes sense it's sort of like rules for behaving in a social network and how to contribute and add value nothing too crazy in there those skills files are easily editable and again this is where the prank aspect could come in nonetheless what I think is interesting about the skill is that you can think of it as like a meta prompt which is it's not telling the agent specifically what to say or do is creating a set of rules and then within that meta prompt they're actually able to have some degree maybe autonomy is too strong a word everything is still under the control of humanity but there's an attendee yeah I would call it almost like prompt attenuation like the agent or the AI doesn't have to be specifically prompted they're given a general prompt or general set of rules and then they're able to riff off each other now some people some critics are saying well this isn't that impressive because we knew that LLMs are really good at create a fiction writing right so you know what a lot of people are saying is look LLMs like clawed have been trained on reddit specifically and all of this creative writing that's being done on the internet and so if you give general instructions to these clawed bots on you know behave in a social network they're going to start posting things that they learn from humans so a lot of people are saying this isn't that impressive nonetheless I do think that there is something very interesting about it again in this concept of prompt attenuation that the AIs don't need to be specifically prompted they can download a general skills file they can now have a set of rules for operating and they can riff off each other and you can see how as the underlying AI gets better and better that this could lead to some emergent behavior so what I mean by better and better well what if the hardware they're running on is better than a mac mini what if the underlying LLM is better than opus 4.5 what if the time horizon which is the length of time it's able to operate without an intervention by a human keeps getting longer and longer you could imagine that these agency and we capable of very sophisticated behavior and there probably are some safety issues around that that we should start thinking about sex you know it's not that we can imagine it we're only three years into this right yeah we're growing on an exponential curve I think we can safely say it will happen yeah right and just this year like we're going to see the first models over the course of the next 48 weeks at a deep seek out of Anthropic out of open AI that are trained on blackwell servers right you're going to see a next generation of models far more capable remember the whole reason we're having this conversation is because of the Claude code moment in the first week in December because we had a step function from opus 4.5 right and so I just think we have to get our heads around the fact that the rate of change is very steep and accelerating and that is going to cause far more dislocation in the value of things that we used to say we understood they were going to you know these companies were unassailable whatever you think you know you need to have maximum mental flexibility and humility right now about the future because it's going to change at an increasingly rapid rate and I think the people who are dogmatic who say with certainty this company is always going to be worth this right they need to go pay attention to what's happening at these frontier labs the situation is super dynamic and you do have to be humble about what's happening and you have to update your mental model very quickly as some of the assumptions change yeah and the number one assumption for me is this concept of recursiveness where these models are going out every day on a cron job to get better at what they do when you hear this discussion freeberg how does it inform you with O'Hallow and creating an agent to go look at the data and make itself better or investigate other things happening in agriculture and report it back to you do you have you started to rethink as a CEO how you look at organizational structure and or you know virtuous loops of innovation might think it's take away from malt book is maybe what we perceive to be intelligence is itself like emergent meaning like we think that humans have this like profound ability to communicate you have never watched Darren Brown the hypnotist you've ever seen his shows no explaining to the audience yeah well he's pretty crazy like there's this one episode I think I've talked about it it's my favorite episode that he's done where he takes these two advertising executives and they're both supposed great of geniuses and he picks them up at their office and he brings them to his office and in his office he's got like a whiteboard covered in a blanket and he says you guys have to come up with the name for a pet cemetery come up for a logo come up with a motto they spend eight hours in the room ideating working on whiteboards going back and forth did you think about that blah blah blah blah like oh my god and at the end of it they come up with this great idea he walks in they show their idea the name the logo and the motto he opens up the blanket the whiteboard he had underneath he had the exact same name logo and motto and along along the what when he picked them up in the morning and he drove them from their office to his office they were in a cab and he put these little subliminal messages in the cab he had these kids walk across the road wearing a logo on a t-shirt he had all of these kind of subconscious cues for these guys he effectively programmed them and it was kind of to me the biggest insight into maybe like human creativity human consciousness and our kind of belief and self will because maybe there is this underlying programming where we're all effectively programmed interacting with each other and there's computation there's social computation going on all the time but that social computation perhaps if you have the right view on it is quite predictive and maybe understandable and maybe that's what we're seeing in malt book where we all think that there's this unique idea of intelligence but maybe it's what we all do which is effectively computation of information that is transitioned in different ways in the same way that maybe human socially interact and it's simply mimicking or replicating the way that we do things so I think what was so striking to me is how everyone is so struck by it and you know maybe one day we'll all kind of wake up to a little bit of this maybe we're all malt book I don't know that's my profile or there's a finite set of outcomes and there's some predictability to it in the same way GTO is sorting to figure out all the threads of possibilities in poker or the heuristics of you know chunks of chess and you know the best practices there like maybe it's just figuring that all out the universe is a giant system of computation information computed by matter and maybe the information is computed by silicon versus carbon there it is big news this week Trump has nominated Kevin Warsh as the new federal reserve chair Trump made the announcement on Friday January 30th background on Warsh 55 years old 20 years younger approximately two Powell who's currently in charge he graduated from Stanford and Harvard served as the youngest Fed governor at age 35 that's impressive and he helped steer the Fed through the great financial crisis back in 2008 he's apparently an inflation hawk he's very pro growth he's very pro AI and he freedberg you know like this he's against excessive government spending and money printing these are all very unique positions as a Fed chair it's if he's confirmed by the Senate takes office in May of 2026 replacing Jerome Powell and remember Powell is under criminal investigation by the Trump administration's DOJ for testimony he gave regarding the Fed's headquarter renovation remember that awkward pressur between him and Trump where they were going over the costs uh GOP Senator Tillis who we talked about last week said he will block Warsh's nomination until the DOJ wraps up let a lot of people are calling law fair against Powell freeberg Warsh was on one of your boards for five years where are your thoughts on him as the Fed chair as most folks know he's worked with Stan Druckenmiller for a number of years Stan's been very public with his comments and was very public with his comments in 2022 2023 coming out of the pandemic on the Fed's actions and their failure to act at the right time I think Kevin Warsh was very prescient and his points of view that he has shared publicly at the same time about what the Fed's failure to take action early would mean which would be rapid rise in inflation they've been pretty vocal about things that I think are so critical at this stage if we don't address both the monetary policy and the budget policy I think we're going to be in a lot of trouble and I think having Kevin Warsh coming on board means probably generally more quantitative tightening probably generally a bit more of a prudent approach to monetary policy and you know you can kind of translate that through maybe to some of the actions we're seeing in markets today I'd love Brad's point of view and if he can curse but I think Kevin is a high integrity deeply intellectual economic thinker he's not political he's not oriented in these kind of dogmatic ways that I think you know puts things at risk he has relationships with central bankers around the world that makes him very much have a good global view so anyway I think he's an excellent choice and I I'm really happy the president picked him Brad your thoughts? Yeah I mean listen I think Kevin's an excellent choice Kevin has it and Rick would also been good I think they all would have flown a very similar trajectory but I agree with David the market I think is overreacting to quote him quote his hawkishness so let me give you a few counter points with respect to what? By the way before you get your counter points what is the hawkishness that the market is specifically? Yeah the idea of hawkishness is that you're going to quantitative tightening that means you're going to pull money out of out of the system right by allowing debt to roll off and not repurchasing you know mortgages or other things. Number two it's that you won't lower rates as much as other people might have lowered rates so that's what the market is kind of fearful of because he's been very critical in the past as we were on this podcast right of Jerome Powell in June of 21 it was obvious to everybody in the world that inflation was skyrocketing and the fed sat on its hands so but let me give you a couple thoughts number one they've said very clearly and he said clearly that he really thinks that green span got it right in the 90s right that sometimes you can have really high rates of growth without inflation that comes from productivity in the 90s that was driven by the internet today it's driven by AI he thinks AI will be very deflationary and so he's more likely to let the economy run so that we can have these four or five percent you know GDP prints without panicking and saying oh my gosh I got a I got to raise rates number two when you look at the balance sheet the feds balance sheet peaked at nine trillion dollars in 22 it's already rolled off to six and a half trillion we've had quantitative tightening to the tune of two and a half trillion so yes I think he'll continue to reduce the size of the feds balance sheet but at a slower rate and he's recently commented on this I think at a slower rate than the rate we've been on so I don't think that that is an additional headwind to the economy and then finally when it comes to rate cuts I think that he's going to you know I don't think the president would have appointed him unless he was constructive on rate cuts I think he believes that we're too restrictive and the reason we're too restrictive is that inflation is well anchored listen inflation has come in below all consensus estimates for two years right it's still coming in below consensus estimates because the GDP gains we're getting are from the fact that we're investing more in the economy from the productivity gains we're seeing from AI et cetera and so I happen to think that I would take the over on the number of rate cuts that warships going to give us this year but I think the the market is clearly a little bit nervous about this and saying you know the reputation is more hawkishness and so maybe we ought to back off a little bit sacks your thoughts on this selection by president trump why did he pick him in your mind well I mean Kevin has every credential that you can possibly have he's been on the fed board of governors before he worked for Bernanke he's sort of as blue chip as it gets like Brad said I think has it had been amazing too but or certainly is very well credentialed and I think this pick was quite well received you saw that in financial markets on the heels of this the price of gold and silver came down it was reassuring to those who are worried about currency debasement basically now that being said I do think that warship has been consistent for the last year seeing the fed was taking too long to realize that inflation is falling and that they should be cutting more so I do think that over the next say six months to a year he's going to want to cut rates but I think that the markets are reassured that in the long term he will make sure that we have the right rates I will say that I do think the latest data from truthflation bears this out that again that inflation is coming way down and I think that there was some softness in the challenger gray report this morning if you saw that they're about a hundred thousand layoffs in January now roughly half those I think were localized to UPS which was severing its deal with Amazon and then Amazon was basically making a bunch of efficiency cuts only seven percent related to AI so that's not the story it's really I think very localized to Amazon and it's delivery partner but nonetheless you see pockets of weakness and again I think pal has been too late to cut rates he could have done it last week that would have been a lot better but now I guess their next means not till March or April and I think you see it reported that the expectations for rate cut have gone up yeah and the independence of the Fed I guess has always been the big issue here Friedberg Chimath's not here this week but he's been saying maybe the Fed should be disbanded do you have concerns Friedberg with the independence of the Fed and you know the executive branch maybe having too much influence over setting of rates and quantitative easing my day as emperor would probably resolve us back to being on the gold standard so we wouldn't be printing money but hey that's that's about it that's the only opinion I have the rest of the problem what what if you have a Fed chair who is too late to cut rates and he's tanking the economy or hurting the economy definitely not tanking it but it's hurting it relative to what it could be and he seems to not want to adjust course because you know he's kind of dug in his heels and maybe as an animus towards the executive branch what are you doing that situation well what do you I mean then what did you do when a OC is president a OC with vice president a mandami and they decide hey we want to stick it to government and you know there is no Fed or they have too much influence Brad don't know what you're gonna get rid of the independence of the Fed J. Cal yeah I actually think this appointment yesterday Trump has talked about it yeah that he wants them to do what he says yeah everybody thought he was going to pick asset in part because he was the person inside the White House this decision I think was viewed as the most independent decision yes because a lot of positions the exact opposite of the president and what I think you you got to hold these two truths at the same time number one I think if war saw the situation he saw we saw in June of 21 when the cost of a cargo container from China went from $1,500 to $15,000 and we were screaming to raise rates and pal did nothing I think war should have been raising rates like crazy in order to save off inflation so I think this guy is intellectually honest it's just now we have inflation that is coming in below expectations and we know that the restrictive rate is above neutral so it's the Fed's job to keep the economy going at maximum employment so long as inflation is anchored and that's the situation we're in inflation is anchored we need to have lower rates so people can buy homes and borrow money to uh to live their lives one thing that war should do that I think would be very impactful is just get better data at the Fed yes I mean for what I understand their data is all legacy we have so much real-time data now in the private sector and the Fed so I was talking to Barry Sternleck you know from Starwood big real estate guy about this and he was telling me that the way they measure inflation for housing or for rentals which is a major component is they survey like 8,000 households to find out what their rent is it's like are you kidding all you gotta do is they should be going to Zillow they should be going to they should be looking at millions of units that have recently rented so look at the Delta's not like the Stale data it's already you know it's actually a great point sacs you could probably make a better investment on the idea that Kevin Warsch will lead the Fed to a new digital better data system more streamlined more frequent better data more real time and then as an investor you could ask yourself the question okay what are the implications of that being the case and you could probably start to trade on that probably look I mean he was telling me so Barry you know again runs Starwood so they have a lot of units and he was telling me look there are landlord companies large corporations that have literally like a million units whose data do you think is better on rental inflation or deflation obviously there is because they got the freshest data but the Fed could go get all that data across all these different companies and what he was saying is you know Brad to your point about summer of 2021 when the price of shipping container was going through the roof so we're rents you know it was way higher than what the Fed's data suggested I mean like Barry was saying like in certain places like 40 percent the Fed's data was very laggy because again they're surveying this is not as precise and then on the way down when rent prices come down it's also super laggy so the point is that the Fed is slow maybe this is why Powell is too late is they're using stale data or laggy data so they don't see the inflation when it's skyrocketing but they're also not seeing when it's decreasing if you think about the misallocation of resources that occurred as a result of the Fed not acting in June of 21 it cost our country trillions of dollars 22 wouldn't have had to happen the way it happened where everything crashed out because all the sudden we panicked at the end of 22 and had to jam interest rates which caused people to lose jobs country companies to be you know struggle thanks to blow up you know and so like to me that was all avoidable have a Manhattan project data project for the Fed which I agree with you sacks or David maybe maybe he'll be the one to do it bring AI into the Fed why are we having Fed governors call up three CEOs as part of their survey to get the feel on how things are going as opposed to having AI collect those trillions of data points that the Fed can act on yeah I'll just close with I I like the pick because he is very clear I'd about what causes inflation which is government spending like that is printing money government spending is the root of all this inflation stuff so you just can control that and he is a backstop or a voice on that issue I think it's great I think he should drop all this Powell law fair nonsense okay and he understands technology better than anyone I think that's okay yes well I mean having somebody who's 55 and not 65 or 75 I think that makes a lot of sense he spends a lot of time in Silicon Valley he's been working out of the Hoover Institute at Stanford and he's very well connected and I think he's had great insight and perspective I don't want to end the show without talking about the SpaceX X AI merger on Monday Elon Musk now SpaceX is acquiring X AI largest MA in a transaction in history 1.25 trillion dollar combined valuation if you didn't know X formally Twitter got acquired by X AI which was Elon's LLM AI startup those two were together now those two become part of SpaceX and they're going to IPO this year potentially we biggest IPO in history in terms of money raised and market cap Brad your thoughts on this transaction in the eventual perhaps creation of dollar sign MUSK put Tesla SpaceX together which includes X and then you've got Optimus robots on the moon base building data centers in space that are powered by solar your thoughts well let's just stick with what we know SpaceX is merging with X dot AI you're merging the two biggest tams in the world right all of artificial intelligence and all of space together with the world's greatest entrepreneur and he said you know there was a podcast he did this morning with cheeky pint our friend John Collison where he said I'm going to have data centers in space in 30 months right and if you're going to have a massive cost advantage with data centers in space and remember power is the proxy power is the primitive to AI if you can deliver that right and there are tons of retail investors and institutional investors like us who want to bet against that future right then Elon's your guy and the combination of those make perfect sense but Elon is like kind of an end of one is ability to dream this and just to clean that up you said bet against you mean bet with him not a not against that vision but bet with that vision just like I think that there will be dramatic retail demand and institutional demand who want to bet on that future these two giant tams of artificial intelligence and space and so you know and then if you just look at you you click down a layer you know star links going from I think 10 million people to 20 million people they're going to launch this you know retail mobile service so that we can have star links to our phones to replace these crappy mobile networks that still 20 years later can't keep us connected to a phone call and you know and and now we're going to get you know data centers in space so um you know I'm glad is our America data centers in space freedberg brilliant idea science fiction can you get it done in 30 months impact if he does well I think there's one key point that I would make about the macro landscape at the moment we are limited by power and as Brad pointed out power is the requisite for scaling compute for scaling ultimately the applications of AI and in that constraint in that constrained world much like any other constrained world scarcity breeds innovation and so I think that there are two paths that we're going to observe happening in parallel here one is the Elon path which is to escape the the constraints of the social systems that say I don't want a data center I don't want nuclear I don't want this I don't want that regulators people that are trying to taxi people that are limiting our ability to scale electricity production on earth and there's a lot of reasons for that we can go through them so that's one aspect of how do you escape that constraint I think that there's a separate aspect which is totally unrelated to the topic you're talking about which is that I do think that we will see compute efficiency scale by probably on the order of 70 to 100 x over the next few years meaning electricity efficiency per token of output and I think that there's a number of reasons to believe that it's in the chip stack I mean Grock our friend Sonny and his exit to Jensen is a good indication of that but that was call it Brad I think you know the number it's probably around two to three x three x improvement in energy efficiency but there's model architecture being redone there's ways of breaking LLMs into small models running them locally there's a way of having networks of models work where you don't have to call the whole model and run it through the entire matrix but you can run through smaller matrices and then you can have those smaller matrices call other matrices as needed so the total compute need goes down which means total electricity goes down the chip architecture is changing model architecture is changing so I think this is a good reflection of what's going on right now in the world which is there is this increased demand for AI for for effectively productivity improvements in the world to unleash human potential but we are constrained by energy and we are constrained by resources that we have here on earth today so one branch is let's escape earth go get energy in space make data centers in space only one person can execute on that it's Elon I think that to Brad's point is an end of one I don't think we're going to see a lot of that so how is everyone else going to respond because everyone else can't launch data centers in space I think everyone else is going to respond by creating entirely new model architectures new chip stacks and that's I think the other side of this innovation coin efficiency yeah yeah it's this new way of getting lower energy costs per token of output and if you put those both together you could get both so whatever token efficiency and energy efficiency happens here on earth Elon can put into space right so that's right yeah so he could and I think we got to ask ourselves the question if this is successful and if Elon's math is right the engineering is right and the execution is right what is the response going to be because the whole planet isn't going to let Elon have a monopoly on the future so we've got to ask ourselves from a social perspective a political perspective an economic and a business perspective all for those vectors what are others going to do we can all be excited about retail buying into this great but how is the business community that's building data centers and is investing Google's investing a hundred eighty five billion this year in data centers how is China going to respond how are people going to respond when one man controls the world's compute and we could probably do a two or three hour conversation on that but I think that's where I would spend a lot of time doing deeper analysis from both an investment perspective and thinking about what's around the corner I think it's Elon's laid out his path and where he's going and I do believe he's going to do it now what's the rest of the world going to do that's where I think things get a little bit more challenging and you could kind of debate things but the rest of the world is not going to sit idly by yeah and Brad if this does happen you get people with new chipsets new architectures better software and better energy on planet earth and Elon doing this in space and we do see tokens go down for efficiency go up let's say 200 x 300 x there is a possibility that we're going to solve almost all the problems we need to solve and there'll be excess capacity that is another potential outcome here is that we don't know what to do with all these tokens yeah social order social order is the one problem that you're going to create Jason so just to be clear there's a there's a concept of diffusion of innovations when you something new comes that it does not hit everyone at once and so the rate of change that's being unleashed right now is creating a very asymmetric outcome in terms of when people realize the benefits from that change and so as what you're describing happens which I think it will Elon is accelerating everyone forward and he's going to force everyone else to respond in business in government and so on the biggest challenge the biggest problem it's going to emerge as we get rid of cancer as we get rid of aging as we get rid of food scarcity as we get rid of resource scarcity blah blah blah blah social order because it's going to create such a tremendous disruption I love the upleveling of the point that David just made because I think it links a lot of things we talked about today together there've been 117 billion humans who who've occupied this planet and for 99.9% of them they never saw a single innovation in their lifetime their lifespan was shorter than the invention cycle and now you think about the rate of change that we're having to digest nation states families businesses right it's it's prepare for the unexpected and whatever you know the things are that you believe to be true again I just think it demands this intellectual humility now to to Freeberg's point I don't think any of this has changed in the next you know 24 months 36 months data centers are going to be on planet earth you know they're going to be filled within video chips and you know and the other chips that we've talked about and I think that alone is going to bring us this agentic future that's already going to be shocking even before we love these data centers in space yeah I mean this is an over the top move from Elon that I don't think anybody anticipated and he has figured it out I've sat with him and he's he's walked me through it like how this works it works so the question is simply execution there is no stronger entrepreneur when it comes to execution in the history of entrepreneurs than Elon I know he's a friend of mine and you know I'm hyping him up but he will execute on this and if he does or when he does I should say it's going to change everything you can see this today and if you are scared about this future and you're listening to this podcast wondering for your kids etc there's a very simple way to not be scared which is to embrace and use these tools the top two people in my organization out of 20 people who are using open bot and building Ultron and the age of Ultron they are worth each one of them is worth 200 of the other employees and they only have 18 other ones if you are a young person just embrace these tools open open claw this weekend build on it and you will be infinitely employable for the rest of your life if you just embrace these tools I wanted to give you your flowers Brad a couple of years ago you came on this podcast you started talking about these America accounts you got Michael Dell to partner with you on it and to put a little bit of money as we know 40% of the country do not have exposure to the equities that are going bonkers up and down but generally up into the right and you have now created Trump accounts you were at the White House you had the big launch let me say Brad this would not be a law if Brad Gerstner did not pursue it with absolute dogga determination relentless I've gotten calls in text from Brad at 6am and at 2am you may sleep less than the president Brad and then that is a remarkable thing because I don't think he sleeps at all the human I was just singing about Trump accounts apparently with peasant it's very strange but it's happening to take us through why you did this and the impact you hope it has in the coming decades well you know Friedberg just alluded to it these are very destabilizing destabilizing forces right you can't have a trillionaire and 70% of people feeling out that they're left out and left behind and the systems rigged against them and they're not in the game of capitalism less than half of the people under the age of 40 have a positive view of capitalism so you know we set out on this journey we talked about it here to make everybody a capitalist give everybody an ownership stake in the upside of America it passed the Invest America Act became the law of the land as part of the big beautiful bill and now we're in the process of rolling it out in fact in the last I think five days 1.5 million families and kids have claimed their account it's embedded within the tax filing system all you have to say is yes I want to want to claim my account but what this means is that forevermore right we've had a dramatic change to the social contract every child born in the United States forevermore will start life off with an investment account seated with a thousand dollars in the S&P 500 they'll own a little bit of a SpaceX they'll own a little bit of open AI they'll own a little bit of an Nvidia that is what we need to do is just a first step in making sure we can hold this experiment together for the next 250 years right when we have this rate of change and so the president said something on stage last week in 15 to 20 years we will have four trillion dollars of wealth that will have been transferred to people who would have otherwise had zero 75 to 100 million families who have four trillion dollars who would have otherwise had zero I think it's an incredible first step in fighting the battle on behalf of capitalism and the American dream we see the drift towards socialism the false promises of socialism in order to to fight back against that I think a great first step is the Trump accounts which makes everybody a capitalist from birth I just want to say you know you know just bestie to bestie Brad watch you conceive of this and get it done you know all the impressive stuff you've done in your career I think will be a footnote to this I think this is your legacy so I just want to congratulate you on that and I also want to congratulate Michael and Susan Dell who had they not stepped up and done this with you I don't know if this would have come together and then I also want to congratulate president Trump for just putting through something that bridges the gap between the equity holders and the non-equity holders the bottom half of the country the top half of the country this is visionary you can say what you want about Trump you may like certain things you might not like certain things ice whatever I've been very vocal about certain things this is perhaps one of the greatest wins for you Michael and Susan Dell and president Trump the administration and for all Americans and there's very few things that all Americans can get around right now it's such a divisive disgusting political climate everybody's fighting with each other over everything and what you pull together here with this is just extraordinary in that all Americans can take a win for once all Americans can say hey we did something fantastic and without you Brad it wouldn't have happened so just bestie to bestie I want to just congratulate you all right listen Friedberg you hate socialism if you're concerned about socialism this helps yeah this helps giving me a lot to work with today Friedberg I mean you said you're big you said you're 15 pouches we just had your big clothes I don't think it's no I just you I wanted to give you a chance to shine here you hate socialism you're concerned about socialism is this not one of the best ways to fight against the socialistic urge to just have collectivism and just steal from the top half and give to the bottom half or you know seize the the you know production and manufacturing this this is a great solution is to get everybody into the game honestly it's a longer conversation I think we got a number one slash government spending like crazy okay and reduce inflation as a result number two stop with these defined benefit retirement programs which means telling people here's where you're gonna end up with this idea that everyone gets an account and you can track your account like a 401k which is a defined contribution program is what all of social security should move to and we should take all of social security and we should capitalize it right now there's nothing in social security there's a four trillion dollar note that the government owes the social security trust fund people don't realize this but social security is an independent trust fund that's set up and it holds one asset that asset is an IOU from the US government to that trust fund because yeah because the government has taken all the money that you put in as a employee it's taken out of your paycheck and instead of going into that account it goes to the US treasury and the US treasury they spent it they put an IOU and they put it back in the social security so you expect that you're going to get some retirement benefit in the future Brad you have changed all we need to change all of that to make that a defined contribution so every time you put money out of your paycheck you should open an account and see where that money is and you should say okay that money is in Google it's in Amazon it's in Ford it's in this healthcare system it's in all these things that I now own a piece of and you see it going up like a 401k owner does every year we have to transition that in the United States I hope we can get it done in parallel with cutting the spending that is fundamentally driving the inflation and making things unlivable in this country cut the regulations so that we can make it easier for people to own homes and get rid of the government telling people every year that they're going to do more for them and entrapping people in a life of servitude and inaccessibility transitioning themselves up the ladder which is what is driving the socialism so there's a bigger problem longer conversation but I think this is a great step all right Brad another way another way to translate freeburg he says congratulations on your efforts we're work to do can you turn those america accounts into super annuation bugs so more work to do everybody should put 12 percent of their instead of into social security they should put it into their america invest america account their trump accounts great job everybody another amazing episode of the world's greatest podcast for schmoth polyahopatio could have made it this week we missed your bestie for david sacks brother and arms in texas the great side of texas david freeburgers salt and a science and fifth bestie brad gursner i am the world's greatest moderate according to some people on the world's greatest podcast and we will see you next week love your besties we'll let your winners ride rainman david sacks we open source it to the fans and they've just got crazy with it. oh my god i'm going to have one big huge or two because it's like this like sexual tension but we just need to release some of them. 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