Episode Revisit- The Tragic Case of Molly Bish & Morbid Chats with Heather Bish

Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alayna. And this is Morbid. This is Morbid. That felt like the old times when I would say it. Yeah, it did. Yeah. I don't know what it was. Just a little more simplistic than I usually do. Yeah, it's just something about today. Yeah. Well, it's nighttime and we don't usually record at night. We don't. It's something spooky, something nostalgic about it. Yeah. It's like the first time that we recorded. And you know what? Speaking of nostalgia, I just had to say, in case, I just wanted to let everybody know that there's a few episodes in our back catalog that I'm like, we always talk about how we were underwater and our sound quality was terrible. You all know, you all loved it. I'm not going to, don't worry, because people, I remember I mentioned it once and people were like, don't take out any of the old episodes. They're like, redo them because they like show your growth. Yeah. Which is awesome. Like, I love that. I love that people said that. That's really cool. And I'm not, I'm not going to like remove all these episodes or anything, but we are going to be like trying to remaster a few of them and make them sound a little better. Just so new people who come to the podcast aren't hearing that as their first gateway. Just so new people want to stay. Yeah. Not everybody is as forgiving, you know, like, so we just want to like try to make it better. And there's a couple that like, I was listening to them. Not only is the sound quality bad, but like, I was like, you know, I feel like I've read more about that case now. And like, I didn't include these details that I wish I did. Yeah. You know what I mean? And it's just like, it's, I just want to do it better. So if you see things getting moved around in our back catalog or like, you know, updated at all, don't be like, oh my God, where did that episode go? It's coming back. It's just, we're going to be like, it's being tweaked. Yeah. We're going to be tweaking some episodes here and there and we'll let you know. Because guess what? You didn't need to know about my vanilla chai. At the salon. I almost just said the exact salon we worked at. There's a few episodes where I was listening back to them and I was like, yeah, we went on like too far of a tangent sometimes. I think it's just like for our own, like, it just doesn't represent what we want it to represent all the time. So I just want to let you guys know, just in case you were like, where did that episode go? Or why is that episode suddenly slightly different? Excuse me, ma'am. But don't worry. When we update episodes or, you know, remaster them, redo them, I'll let you know. So unlike the whatever episode I do it the next week, I'll be like, hey, by the way, guys, go check out that episode because we redid it. Yeah. So you won't be in the dark. You'll know. Love that. But I just want to let you know. So you're, you know, we're all in this together. We are. So I wanted you to know what's going on behind the scenes. Well, I'm just trying to make it a little more palatable for everybody in the back catalog there. Yeah. Well, and because we're all in this together, let's talk about the fact that some of you are like, why the fuck did you refund my show? Why did you just give me money? What's happening? Basically, what we're doing right now is that almost every single venue and like show that we had, we're still going to do them. But right now we are refunding you because we have no idea when it's going to be acceptable to gather in large crowds. Yeah. And these places don't want to hold your money hostage while we try to figure out. No. What dates are happening, you know, like when it's going to happen. Yeah. And you know what? Maybe we'll do different venues in those same places, but find like maybe like a fun cemetery. Yeah. We're going to make it a little like, or like a dark creative about it. So if we were coming to your city and you had tickets, please don't worry. Like we're not like, we're not coming like, sorry. That would have been fun. Bye. No, we're going to, we just, we don't want to, we don't want those venues like hanging onto your money while we try to figure out what dates this is going to happen to. Cause that's not really fair. And also we, like Ash said, we're trying to like change up the venue a little in the same cities. We want it to be a little more of like an experience. Yes. We have ideas. We've had a lot of time with COVID to like really talk about it and like really conceptualize some fun things. The amount of Pinterest boards that I have. Yeah. And then, um, the only one that you're not going to, you're not going to get refunded. No. The only one where you're not going to see a refund is Boston because we still plan to do that show. Yeah. The Wilbur is happening. Not on that date. Most likely. Yes. Not this month. In fact, When I say most likely, I mean at all. Absolutely not. Yeah. That's going to be rescheduled. So that will be rescheduled. So just hang on to that because we will update you as soon as we know. The Wilbur is just like a little up in the air right now when this can all happen. And we don't want like 1200 of you to like gather and have us be the reason. That's our thing. It's just, I don't, we, we really don't want to like encourage people to gather too soon. No, it seems a little hypocritical. We're getting to a place of like, we're getting to a place of vaccine. And a place of herd immunity. Yeah. And we want to just let that ride out for a little while so that everybody can feel safe. Yes. Everybody can feel comfortable. So that I don't have to hear a single one of you sneeze during my fucking set. That's it. That's all it is. Is that Ash doesn't want to hear a sneeze or a cough during it. No. No. I'm totally kidding. It's because we care about you and, you know, we care about ourselves. I don't want to get you sick. And we don't care about your babies. We don't want anybody getting sick. So, and we don't want to encourage it. No. Before it's over. It's okay. So, we can't wait. Like, trust me. Oh, I am craving it. Can't wait. Yeah. But, again, we just want to be responsible. We want to be fair to everybody. So, if you see those refunds coming in. That's what that is. That's what that is. And look out because we'll let you know as soon as we're coming back. Oh, my God. That just scared the shit out of me. Oh, it's a ladybug. So, it's on, like, we have these little, like, sound things so that we're not echoey and it's in front of me. And all of a sudden, I just see this creepy crawly going up the side. I'm like, what the fuck is that? And it's a ladybug. And I was just like. It's a ladybug. Yeah, it's just a lovely little ladybug. Hi, girl. Hi, girl. So, I think that was all the business, right? I think so, yeah. Yeah. And, like, even if there's more, like, too much time, bye. So, let's get into it. I had mentioned last week that, you know, we weren't going to do Venus Extravaganza quite now because. Yeah. Not the right time. And then, so, what I did was I went back on the Patreon because it was the Venus Extravaganza was a Patreon pick. And I still wanted the Patreon to feel like they got their full month's picks. For sure. So, I went on the original post where everybody was, like, picking their things. And I was like, what cases were, like, super, super requested? And the two that were the most requested were the Molly Bish story and Dominique Dunn. So, what I'm going to do is the popular vote. I hate to even say that. Was Molly Bish. And so, I'm going to do that today. And then, next week, I'm going to do the Dominique Dunn story. Woo! So, without further ado. Molly Ann Bish was born on August 2nd, 1983. Her parents are John Sr. and Maggie Bish. Adorable names. And Maggie is Maggie with an I. Her full name is Magdalene, I believe. Oh, I love that. Or Magdalena. I wrote Maggie for most of this. So, yeah. She had two older siblings, Heather and John Jr. And the family was originally from Detroit. But Maggie and John decided that it just wasn't the best place for them to raise their young kids. And actually, something that made a huge impact on their decision to move was the abduction of a young girl who lived close by. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yup. So, they moved to a quiet Massachusetts town called Warren. Have you ever been there? Ever heard of it? Yeah, I have been to Warren. It is literally like, it's like a different world. It's so quaint. It's like Oklahoma, I feel. Yeah, it's so quaint. Yeah, it's very quaint. It's like beautiful. Yeah. So, John Sr. actually worked as a police officer. And Maggie was able to stay at home with the kids until her youngest, Molly, started kindergarten. And Maggie said that there were two sides to Molly. She could be like really shy or she could be super shy. funny and she compared her humor to like Lucy from I Love Lucy. Oh, I love that. She was like, that was Molly's kind of funny. She's Lucille Ball. That's a great icon to be compared to, humor was. Yeah, huge compliment. So good for her. She sounded like she must have been hilarious. Yeah, hot shit. Now, Molly was the kind of girl to include everybody. Her mom said that she never wanted anyone left out and that people were just naturally drawn to Molly. She had one of those like faces, personalities, energies that people wanted to be around her. She did have one of those faces. She is. Because every time you see a picture of her, you're like, oh. She's like drop dead. Like she was beautiful. And you just want to know her. Yeah, she just like, you know how like you can tell somebody is a nice person. Yeah. Like there's no way you're mean. Yeah, just radiates. Yeah, I don't have that face. So Molly was not only a kind, funny kid. She was also a talented athlete. She played softball, soccer, basketball. Damn. And on top of all of that, she was also an honor student. Wow. And she was an honor student that hoped to someday work with children. That was like what she wanted to do. Stop. Yeah. So she was outgoing. She was popular among her friends in high school. She had a boyfriend that she had recently gone to prom with. And this was summer now. And everybody was going to be heading into their senior year that fall. So in the meantime, that summer, Molly wanted to work as a lifeguard at a nearby pond. And her brother, John, had actually worked as a lifeguard at Cummins Pond too. And he was the one who got her set up for working. Yeah. I think he had worked there for like the three years before she started working. Oh, wow. So it was almost like not like a family gig. Yeah. So she was like, I'm going to work there. I'm going to work there. But like her brother passed down his job. Yeah. So he showed her how to set up for the day. He laughed remembering like teaching her how to look for snakes, which I thought was adorable. And he showed her. Terrifying and adorable. I know. I hate snakes. He showed her just like the ins and outs of the job. So Molly had been working for a week and she was enjoying it. And then on the morning of June 27th, 2000, she got bad news. Her mother, she was like getting ready for work. And her mother had to tell her that one of her friends that she played soccer with was going to be a lifeguard. And she was like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't was actually in the hospital in critical condition, and she had been hit by a car while she was riding. her bike. Oh. Yeah, it was like very serious. So Molly was obviously super upset, but it was too late to call into work, and there were going to be swim lessons that day, and she didn't want to miss them. She was like excited about them. So she made like a super responsible decision to go in for her shift. Wow. Which at 16 years old, I feel like that was the really like mature decision. It really was. I think that says a lot about her. Yeah, it would have been much easier to make the other decision. For sure. So Maggie drove Molly to the police station to pick up the two-way radio that the lifeguards would use. They would like use it to contact the police if there was an emergency. Yeah. And they also stopped to grab a couple of water bottles. When they got to the pond, Molly told her mom she loved her and ran up to her post to set up for the day. So by 10 a.m., the swimmers, who Molly was like looking forward to helping and looking after, they arrived at the pond, but there was no lifeguard on duty. Hmm. Yeah. So the parents of the swimmers were like, that's weird. And one of the moms took the post herself for the time being because somebody had to do it. Yeah. And she saw that there were flip flops in the sand by the post and that the two-way radio was there. A first aid kit was there and there was a backpack. And actually, the first aid kit was open. So it's very clear that there was a lifeguard there at one point. Yeah. It's very clear that Molly was there. Yeah. And had set up for the day. Like I said, it seemed like somebody had been there to set up and then just vanished. I hate this case. This case. I'm already just like, ugh. I know. I'm literally wrapped in a blanket right now and I have chills. So Molly's boss was informed that she was nowhere to be found. So he contacted the police when she didn't show up. Which is like, okay. I'm like, why didn't you also call her parents? But whatever. Oh, yeah. I didn't even think of that. Yeah. So the police immediately assumed that Molly had ran off with friends, even though there was nothing about her character that could have aided in that abrupt decision. That she was suddenly just abandoned her job and run out with friends. She'd been working for a week. She'd never done that before. Yeah. It didn't come off like she was the. I mean. I mean, she's 16, I guess. I don't know if that's just like. That's literally in my notes. Of course, she's very responsible and she seems like a more responsible 16-year-old. But they don't know her. She's still a 16-year-old. So they're probably just like. And that's how they looked at. Literally, I wrote like the stereotype of 16-year-old girls. They were like, she ran off. They knew. I think they knew that her friend had been in the hospital. They're like, maybe that's what happened. I don't know. But that wasn't Molly. She wouldn't do that. No. So when Molly still hadn't turned up by one o'clock, one o'clock p.m. at this point, the police contacted her parents to let them know what was going on. So it's been three hours since Maggie's dropped her daughter off and she has no idea that like. That they can't find her. Two minutes after she left, like something happened. And it happened so quick. Yeah. Because the first swimmers arrived like a little bit after 10. Like a few minutes after 10. Yeah. That's the part that really gets me about this. Somebody. Is how quickly this happened. Somebody had, in my opinion, somebody had been watching her for a little while. Knew the routine. Knew the routine. Knew what time she got there. And we'll see later on that there's like a point where like they could have been hiding and like Maggie wouldn't have seen them and neither would Molly. Yeah. Absolutely. So we'll get into it. Yeah. So they contact her parents to let them know what's going on. But they still believe that she would turn up and had just gone off with her friends. And Maggie and all of her family are like, no. So Maggie called Molly's older sister, Heather. Now Maggie's the mom. Just I think the M's get a little confusing. Yeah. Maggie calls Molly's older sister, Heather, to let her know what's going on. And Heather promptly heads over to help her mom search for Molly. They knew something wasn't right about this entire situation. And they were like, if nobody else is going to investigate, then like, fuck it, we will. Yeah, of course. So they started contacting Molly's friends. They went to her boyfriend's house. They checked to see if she had visited that friend in the hospital. Nope, nope, nope. She wasn't anywhere that they looked. Nobody had heard from her. Nobody said like they heard that. Nobody said like they heard that she was in the hospital. Nobody said like she was going to go here or there or anywhere. Yeah. Like this wasn't a case of she just checked out. Now, the police proposed that maybe she had drowned, which they were like, her family was like, I know. Like, first of all, it's a pond. So like, yeah. And she's a lifeguard. She's a lifeguard. And they were like, not that lifeguards can't drown, but it's like, of course they can. But they were like, no, she's a very strong swimmer. And it's not like there was weather that day or anything where the water, like the pond water would have gotten rough. When would she have drowned? Well, that's just. That's just arrived at her post. Yeah. It didn't really make any sense. I think that they just. You got to think of anything at this point. Right. You want an answer. You're not going to immediately be like she was abducted, which you're going to hope that's maybe you should like that. But I'm not a police officer. I feel like you should just overreact. Yeah. Always overreact. Yeah. You know, but so her brother, John, even got in the water to search for his sister himself. He was diving all around trying to find any sign of Molly. The investigators actually made him come out. So that they could bring in their boats and divers. They looked and looked and looked. Molly had not drowned. She was not anywhere in that water. And then Maggie remembered something that would haunt this case for like the next 20 years to come. A white car had been parked in the lot that in the lot the day earlier. So the previous day. OK. And the man sitting inside really freaked Maggie out so much so that she actually didn't leave Molly alone until the car left. Oh, yeah. She said that she saw a man. She saw a man sitting in a white parked car smoking a cigarette and she saw him staring and actually most of the articles that I read said glaring at Molly. What the fuck? Yeah. And she said there was immediately this horrible feeling in her gut while she stared back at the man like a self-proclaimed mama bear like like trying this with my daughter. Like so he stared right back at her and then finally drove away. Oh, that would I'd be way too horrified by that. But I think she was like, well, John worked here for like three years. And like, I mean, you're not going to think this person is like, no, going to come back. Of course, not your immediate like hindsight right now. I'm like, oh, right. But it's like in the moment, you're going to be like, he's gone, right? He's gone. That was weird. That was gone. Yeah. And actually, the morning that Molly went missing, Maggie was relieved because when they got there, there was a sand delivery truck. So she was like, OK, Molly. She was like, I wasn't going to leave her alone after that happened that day. But now I see that there's yeah, there's there's workers here. There's other people. And she actually. Molly had arrived a little bit late that day. Like, I think she was supposed to be there before 10. So she was like, they're the swimmers are going to be here any minute. Yeah. She's not alone. Yeah. And so the day before, she had actually walked Molly to her post and hung out for a while until she was sure that the creepy man had driven off. And she was able to give all the details of the man's features to a sketch artist. And a composite sketch was made showing an older man with a large mustache, dark eyes and salt and pepper hair holding a cigarette. Yeah. I'm just picturing it. And I'm like, yeah. So the first one was done and she was like, cool. But they actually had a second sketch artist come in named I believe it's Jean Boylan. And we'll post that one because that is like the most well-known in the case. Like if you're Googling it right now. I was going to say, I know this one. Yeah. That's the one. I believe it's Jean. That's so horrifying. He's terrifying. I hate it. Yeah. So by this point, the police, the Warren police are realizing that they have a missing persons case on their hands. And they decide to bring in the state police. Because Warren didn't, Warren's like we said in the beginning, a quaint little quiet town. Like nothing like this happens here. Exactly. And that's the other reason why I'm sure it wasn't the first thing that popped in her head that this guy is going to like come back and do something. It's like this. This is a quiet town. It's a quiet town. Where nothing happens. Like it doesn't happen a lot here. That is a thing. Right. But I mean, I was like really happy to see that the Warren police were like, you know, we don't have expertise in this area. Let's bring in the state police. Because I feel like we have talked about so many cases where they're like, nope, we can handle this. When the egos get into the, in the way. It's so nice when, because we've had a few that have done this, which it's like, thank goodness. Yeah. Because it's like when they let the egos go and they're like, we need some help. We can't handle this. Right. Yes. Like not to say that there weren't mistakes made during the investigation. For sure. There definitely were. But, you know. But at least they handed, they, you know. Gotta give credit where credit's due, I guess. Exactly. So the first night came and went, obviously without Molly's return. Molly's father, John Bish, said, quote, it's hard for me to describe that sinking hollow feeling you have as divers are looking for your daughter, as dogs are combing through the woods, and police officers are searching and interviewing people. And I almost immediately began to think that something really horrible had happened. I never, ever can put myself in that state of mind. No. I can't. And anytime I hear it, I'm like, I don't, I just want to like hug these people. I know. Well, this like makes me actually want to hug you and we're not even huggers because I like almost started crying when I read this. Molly's sister, Heather, remembered how surreal. That first night was. And she said that she kept going outside, just like thinking maybe and hoping that her sister's kidnapper was just going to like drop her off. Because you think like, it's like when you've done something and you're like, crap, why did I do that? Can I rewind? Like, you know that feeling? Yes. But in like this case, she's like, maybe this will happen. Like in a perfect world. Yeah. Maybe it'll just happen. Right. And Heather and her sister had started to become like, because Heather was a little bit older. And so they were starting to get closer because now Molly was getting older. And they were kind of, Heather said, like having. Establishing a more like adult sister relationship. Yeah. It's always fun when that happens, actually, because that happened with like, you know, with us. Yeah. And then it also happened with like me and my brother, like eight years apart. Yeah. And when we got to that, like, point where you're like suddenly at this good place. Right. Where like you get each other's humor now and you're like cool and like you can hang out. Because the older person is like, oh, you're like a real person now. Oh, I can chill with you now. Like, it's I'm not just making fun of you all the time. Like, I can actually hang out with you. Yeah. You're just like a little tag along. Yeah. Like, I remember. that point with JP and I was like, I know that is the best. remember that point like even with my little sister yeah yeah it happens in every sibling relationship it does so the next day there was a massive search there were helicopters search dogs tons of people heading out promptly at 6 a.m to find molly businesses printed out missing persons flyers neighbors joined in on the search people tied yellow ribbons throughout the neighborhood i remember that and oh my god this broke my heart i saw an interview with maggie or it might have been a quote where she said like the yellow ribbons floating throughout the air like later on they they discover some remains and she was like it was almost like molly's hair like flowing in the wind oh yeah and she was like it was like she was there before we knew that she wasn't there oh that just gave me like full chills it gave me i don't know why it reminded me of the lovely bones but no it does yeah 100 it does yeah yeah because you're seeing like the family's grieving oh yeah this case really because i remember when this was all going on it the family you were just like your heart shattered and we're from massachusetts so there's that other like always you're my like you're my family yeah you're my massachusetts family yeah it's like i feel like i i feel so empathetic this family actually reminds me so much of our family just like based on like things that i've seen and i'm like oh yeah it's just oh it's horrible so yeah but nothing turned up so this excuse me the scene back at the beach was essentially demolished because number one nobody thought that like it was it took too long to become a crime scene in the first place because they were like oh she ran away and even before anybody knew anything there's already like swimmers that are coming for the day and the day is beginning the mom set up at the lifeguard post because she didn't know what was going on of course not so you know it was just demolished so they tried to get what they could get but the other thing is so compromised it's a freaking beach there's sand everywhere like what are you gonna get really oh yeah i mean outdoor crime scenes forget about it anyways it's always harder but then you add like a lot of like a lot of like like next to the water right with you know you're next to the water it's windier right there's moisture around like it's just it's a nightmare but something that really bothered the investigators working of like what they had of a scene was that the first aid kit was open like i said yeah why was it open like it was just some like a little detail that will become much bigger yeah when you said it at first i was like that's strange it's just a little weird yeah well and what they wondered was maybe somebody approached molly and gained her trust by like leading her to the to believe that they were injured in some way like ted bundy oh you have a band-aid or do you have this and got her to like grab something hop down from her post and help them and then they probably just scooped her up and that seems so likely it absolutely does because it's like a ted bundy thing they prey on somebody who will help them right and i mean she's a lifeguard like and she's like and she's like that's my job and she's a sweet girl so yeah she's a kind person of course she's gonna help she has a first aid kit right and it's a perfect way to help her and she's like i always thought that too was like the lifeguard post you're like oh well you're high in the air that's like a good place to be i guess if you're being attacked because it's like they have to get you down right but to get her down that's a perfect way to do it exactly they knew it's much harder to get them down right so that's they prayed on even worse they prayed on her kindness yeah now right off the bat so they're thinking that's weird but obviously they have to clear the people that they know exist of course so her boss and her boyfriend were the first people looked into as like people of interest but they both had either alibis or passed their polygraph test so they were quickly like no it wasn't them now with the news of the lurking man in the car there was a roadblock set up and a tip line established so people were obviously calling in to say all kinds of things obviously we have like the people that just want to call because they're born on a tuesday and they're like i saw molly in like wisconsin or i saw her here like they were just saying like all parts of the country i hate that people do that acting like she was a runner away it's like don't get a life just don't do it get a hobby seriously like a different hobby like can you for one second but like understand that this girl has a family right like you're destroying every time you do that like and here's the deal she could have still been alive while you're calling in that tip that she's halfway across the country or something like that and then they're looking into that and that's precious time wasted exactly where they could have potentially rescued her i don't know what happened that's that's the thing it always derails the investigation because it sends it sometimes on a wild goose chase right and it's like and while they're looking into this some shit is going down over here exactly it's just so aggravating i just don't understand like what you gain from that i don't get people's mentality that do that shit no it's like i really don't that's some shady shit and i'm i just can't imagine like sorting through the tips and being like being the one to determine what we're going to go after and what we're not yeah that's like a really hard job that's the thing yeah so yeah some people are saying she's but other people reported that they had seen that white car at the cemetery a few days prior with a man in it who looked similar to the sketch and then some people say that he was near the pond just a couple minutes before maggie and molly arrived oh yeah and there was actually a trail um on the beach leading to that cemetery i think it was like one article i read said it was like a fork in the beach and like one side of it led to that cemetery and he's a the sketch is like very like you would know yeah you would know that guy he has a very he honestly looks like matilda's dad he kind of does like a little bit like tanny devito like tanny devito i love your work he he has a very distinct mustache he has very distinct eyes very distinct the eyes really yeah and like thing that are like even like the forehead wrinkles and the very specific nose shape i don't if you saw him you'd be like yeah that is him yeah like i definitely definitely saw that guy it's not just a guy with a mustache it's a very specific guy it is and we'll post it yeah and then that trail actually police ended up investigating it but they came up with nothing oh really there's nothing there again it's outside so it's so hard well that's the thing exactly it's so easy to lose evidence i mean the only thing that i guessed that like they could have gotten was like tire tracks but maybe there just weren't any yeah i mean and who's to say that he was in the cemetery that's again just a tip sorry i'm just throwing things i was gonna say i just slammed into my microphone i'm sorry way to walk with the hands i do so yeah like things were being investigated nothing's turning up they are um like sex offenders in the area were interviewed they were polygraphed actually a few of them did not pass their polygraph tests huh but there wasn't really there was like a couple people that didn't and there was nothing to hold them on really and no i mean they don't have a shred of evidence so what are they gonna do yeah what are you gonna do you can't do much with just a polygraph yeah you can't be like i think you lied yeah and also it's weird that like multiple of them lied like yeah strange i think maybe it's just like nerves yes that could happen i feel like i could never pass one of those i think i would just be like yeah and if you're coming in as a sex offender already you're probably already pretty nervous nervous which you should be don't sex event don't do it so the next big tip would not come until may of 2003 three years after molly bish went missing wow yeah a hunter from the area had seen a blue bathing suit in the woods in a nearby town called palmer which i've actually literally never oh yeah i've heard of it oh all right it's massachusetts um when police went to investigate they did find a piece from what they determined to be molly's bathing suit not only did her father remember buying that bathing suit with his daughter it was like this very specific blue and white color they said like he was like i know that was it but dna testing confirmed that it was molly's oh that's horrific now once the bathing suit was found there was another massive search and actually it was the biggest search in massachusetts state history oh yeah yeah um this was everywhere absolutely every i was in high school when this happened it was everywhere yeah i don't remember it because i think i was literally five years old i was pretty young you were really i mean in 2003 you were what like eight years old yeah i was like in 2004 i was eight yeah it doesn't matter but you were young but i don't remember this at all because i was so little and i think probably if it was on the news somebody was like let's not let's just turn that all this five-year-olds in here yeah um but yeah so the huge huge huge search massive search biggest in u.s in u.s in massachusetts history um and then the first week of june there were multiple grim discoveries partial remains were found in palmer in an area called whiskey hill um a lock of hair and a tongue ring were also found all confirmed to be molly's oh yeah and i just thought this was like a really cute story because like i think it's like i think she's so badass for like convincing her parents to get a tongue ring i know i was gonna say what a badass right and john senior remembered taking molly to get her tongue pierced the previous spring and he was like the only like reason that i did it is that she promised she quote wouldn't get any tattoos or any other piercings until she was 45 at least and i just thought that was like a cute like story well and she seems like she was such a like a good kid yeah and like pretty responsible they were like was it rebellious what you want to do cool and if if your kid is that good and they're like can i just get my tongue pierced like it's not permanent no you know like especially in 2000s like yeah i remember even in like when i was in high school people are still getting their tongues pierced oh yeah but like and i feel like back then it was like such a thing it was a huge thing then yeah so i thought that was just like a cute story like father daughter yeah they just seemed like they were like and honestly the bond between them was something like really special and it's sad yeah her parents just seem so cool like they seem like really just like down-to-earth sweet people Her mom, like I said in the beginning, her mom was saying how Molly had, like, an I love Lucy sense of humor. And her mom in the interviews, she has, like, this smile. And obviously it's, like, she's smiling through a lot of pain. But you can tell that she's, like, kind of goofy and silly, too. Yeah, like, she just gives that vibe off. They just seem like really fucking awesome people. Yeah, it really sucks when this shit happens because it's always to these kind of people. Exactly. You know, I hate it so much. Now, only 26 of the 206 bones that make up the human body were found. Wow. 26. Wow. Maggie and John actually had to wait to collect their daughter's remains and wait to hold a funeral service so that everything could be analyzed. And then they were advised against cremating Molly's remains in case, like, any new testing or anything like that came about. Yeah, I can understand that. So Molly's remains were buried along with her prom dress and a ton. Of letters from, written by friends and family. Wow. That's, like, with the prom dress, it's like, ooh. Because you forget. She's 16. She literally just went to prom. She was fucking 16. Like, what? Ugh. And this is really just going to drive the point home, like, how horrific this case was and how much this poor family suffered. Molly was buried on what would have been her 20th birthday. Wow. August 2nd, 2003. Like, it's just horrific. Ugh. So let's get into, like, who the heck did this now? Who the fuck did this? Right? I was, so there's, we're going to get into suspects. And I'm, like, reluctant to even say suspects because so far in the past 20 years that this case has been ongoing and open and everything, no arrests have ever been made. Which is crazy. Nuts. It's been, I mean, 21 years now. I know. And it feels like 2003, you're like, oh, yeah, that was a few years ago. Yeah, in 2000 when she disappeared. Yeah. But there have been a lot of different persons of interest along the way. Now, the first person was named in February. This is a man named Rodney Stagner, I believe is how you say it. He was arrested in Florida for the murder of his girlfriend, Crystal Morrison. He stabbed her 39 times and nearly decapitated her. Jesus. So that just goes to show you what kind of guy we're dealing with. Crystal's sister, Bonnie, actually came forward to give information that she thought might be helpful in the Molly Bish investigation. Wow. No, she said that she and her sister hadn't spoken for, like, almost 20 years. 20 years. And then out of the blue, Bonnie got a call from Crystal. And Crystal told Bonnie that she was sure that she was going to be murdered by her boyfriend, Rodney, that night. And the entire, it's, first of all, the conversation starts off like that. And then the rest of the conversation is just, like, very bizarre. It was almost like she was speaking, Crystal was speaking to Bonnie in some kind of, like, code. Wow. And she, you don't talk to her for 20 years. And that's what you call the set. She's like, I'm fairly certain I'm going to be murdered tonight. I mean, like, what the fuck? Right? So she also, Crystal also told her sister that she needed the phone numbers for the FBI and the Massachusetts State Police. Now, remember, they're living in Florida. And she was like, I don't need Florida police. I need Massachusetts State Police. And she wanted both parties to come and talk to her and Rodney about murders. Murders. Oh, that's weird. Yep. Now it's going to get weirder. Because Crystal actually commented a couple times. And seemed to be making a point. She made a point about asking Bonnie about her bird. Like, I guess Bonnie had this bird that was, like, squawking in the background. And Crystal, like, kept commenting on it. There was multiple phone calls. And she's like, one day, Bonnie told her the bird's name because she asked. And she was like, oh, okay. And then the next night, she asked the bird's name again. And she's like, how did she already, like, the article I read, she was like, how did she already forget? We just talked about this. And Bonnie reminded Crystal that that bird's name was Molly. And then the phone went silent. And Bonnie. Realized that there was a reason why Crystal was making a point to mention the bird. What? And, like, I guess she was like, it's Molly. And then there was silence. And then Bonnie was like, oh, my God. And Crystal was like, yep, like. Oh, my God. Yeah. Did Rodney look like the sketch? Oh, okay. We'll get into that. Oh, my God. I'm stressed. Now, Rodney, believe it or not. So, remember, they're in Florida. But believe it or not, he had actually lived in Southbridge, Massachusetts. Stop. Which is only. Only about 15 miles away from Warren, which would be, like, a 25-minute drive. Yeah. I Googled it. Nothing. He was in. It's crazy that I don't remember hearing about this. Really? This is nuts. Really? This is, like, actually new to me. This is in 2008. Wow. I think there was just, like, probably so much about this case. Yeah. So, yeah. He was an experienced hunter and fisherman with a known background of violence against women, obviously. And that was exactly who the authorities were looking at at that time. They said it's probably somebody just like that between the ages of 18. We can't narrow, like, the ages down more than that. But they're a hunter. They're a fisherman. They know the area. Yeah. For sure. And they're definitely violent. Now, Rodney was, quote, familiar with Commons Pond and Whiskey Hill. And if that's not enough for you, this guy lived, quote, three-tenths of a mile away from the YMCA in Southbridge, where Molly got her lifeguard certification. Shut up. Now. Shut the front door. Shut the front door. Shut the front door. Shut it. Molly's dad worked part-time at a hospital in Southbridge, so he would bring Molly to her classes and pick her up when they were done. But there were some days where she got out early or, like, he had to stay late, so she would hang out around the area. And there was a local coffee shop that she would usually hang out at until, like, her dad would come get her. Now, one of the private investigators who worked for the Bish family, his name is Tom Shamsack, I believe is how you say it, he said, quote, It's very significant because it's a possible explanation of where Rodney Stagner may have first encountered. Molly Bish. This is not a heavily populated area. It's quite possible that the two of them met there. She may have been chatted up. He may have extradited information from her, namely that she was going to be employed at Commons Pond. This. Yeah. Yup. Like, there's so many pieces that fit here. Oh, absolutely. So, and Tom felt that way, too, the private investigator. So, he actually went to visit Rodney in prison because, remember, he's in prison for literally murdering his girlfriend. He went to go speak with him, and he showed Rodney a picture of Molly, and he said that Rodney wouldn't even look at the picture, like, glanced at it and pushed it back across the table, like, didn't want to look at it. I feel like Rodney did it. Mm-hmm. I, I'm, like, shocked right now. So, you're going to be even more shocked. Now, going back to Crystal's sister, Bonnie, she was the one who had to go into the home where her sister was murdered to gather all of her sister's belongings. Oh. And it took a little while. I think, um, Bonnie was experiencing, like, some health issues. But, so, it took a little while. But when she got there, she found Rodney's wallet with a copy of his firearms license. And she said, quote, What? So, and I'll post the picture of his firearms license, which is from Massachusetts. It is essentially identical. Like, when she says that he could have sat and posed for it, that it's not an exaggeration at all. I need to, I'm, like, okay, stop it. Like, right? Stop it. It's insane. Now, Bonnie also found, and this is so creepy that we, like, recently covered a case where something similar happened. Bonnie also found a bag of hair accessories, like clips and barrettes that she was, like, these definitely did not belong to Molly. She, like, she was, like, these belong to a child. Like, and there was, like, a whole thing of them. A bag of them. What? In the home, yes. And then here, here's one more thing on Rodney. I hate this. His, uh, his brother Randy owned a white Chrysler. And both of them moved to Florida together pretty shortly after Molly disappeared. Okay. Hello. Mm-hmm. Oh, my God. So, because we talked about Rodney, we also have to talk about his brother Randy, the white, the white Chrysler-owning brother. Yeah. He was actually connected to a missing person's case himself. Oh, was he? Do you know about the Holly, um, Purin, Purinan case? That sounds very familiar. I literally looked up how to say it, and I wrote it phonetically. Purinan. Purinan. Yeah. So, Holly was a 10-year-old little girl, and she went missing from Sturbridge, Massachusetts in 1993. Um, she had been, I believe, vacationing with her grandmother. And she and her little brother Zach took, like, a short walk to just a neighbor's house. They were checking out, like, some new puppies that the neighbor had. But somewhere along the way, they got separated. And Zach came back without her. And when the adults and everyone went back to look for her, all that was left of her was a shoe by the side of the road. Oh, my God. And this little girl must have been, like, absolutely, like, super, super smart because she had just gone to a camp, and they talked about, like, what you should do if you're, like, being abducted or something like that. Yeah. And they said, like, leave something behind. So, her family thinks that she, like, probably kicked off that shoe as to leave behind a sign at 10 years old. Ripped my heart out of my chest. Ripped my chest. Yeah. Now, again, this is really horrible. Three weeks later, Holly's body was found in the woods of Brimfield, Massachusetts, right off of Five Bridge Road. Oh. Now. I've been to Brimfield for the antique fair. You know who else? They have, like, a huge antique fair. You know who else had been to Brimfield? Who? Also, that's a great antique fair. It is, but that just, like, bums me out. Randy had been in that area. Oh, I'm shocked. And actually, he was living in those same woods in a tent where her body was discovered. Stop it. Yeah. Coincidence? I think not. No, this is too much. Mm-hmm. Now, people who hunted with both brothers later said to the authorities, that they were pretty close to Five Bridge Road when they were hunting like and they had like seen it before the brothers had like pointed it out to them and been like oh like there's that over there now Holly's little brother had flashbacks later on of like images of this man that he thought he saw in 2005 these flashbacks started happening and he was able to talk to a sketch artist and the man that he described looked a lot like Randy and he had never seen Randy before like he'd never seen a picture of him or anything and then in 2011 DNA from Holly's crime scene was actually able to connect to a man named David Pouliot I think is how you say it and he that DNA connected him to the scene so like he was at the at the crime scene but he wasn't named a suspect and he passed away in 2003 huh yeah now um I didn't look too deep into it because this is mostly about Molly and maybe we'll cover Holly's uh disappearance at another point in time but I don't know if you've seen it but I don't know if you've seen it but I don't know if you've I'm pretty certain her case is still open and there was actually somebody's body was exhumed that was that they thought was like in connection with the case yeah oh that's horrific so it can't even it's wild and so bad the connections between Molly and Holly's case are like very eerie and that's to say the least and it's not only the suspects involved because they were both 10 years old in 1993 the year that Holly went missing and Molly actually wrote Holly's family a letter because she was so touched by the case stop and she told them that she hoped that they would find Holly soon oh my god so literally like the this is so strange it's I don't even know what to say about that it's so I don't even nuts wow yeah and I do feel like it's worth mentioning that these two girls had similar features like blonde hair they did blue eyes their abductions were sort of similar both having been in like pretty secluded areas where there was not like a quote-unquote adult yep weird that is very weird yes but Rodney and Randy were not the only people of interest there was another man named as a suspect by another private investigator on Molly's case and this was Dan Malley this man named as a suspect uh by Dan Malley was Gerald uh Badassoni Gerald is a disgusting like monster a pedophile just the lowest of the low ew yeah he's horrible and he had some shocking connections not only to Molly's case but Holly's as well both cases now he was named a suspect by the PI in 2011 when he was already in prison for raping a teenage girl in the 90s disgusting yeah and the girl who he raped was the daughter of a woman that he had been dating oh yeah this woman that he raped this young girl said that he she excuse me he had assaulted her oh sexually assaulted her over 100 times oh my god yes and it seems that he was like quite literally obsessed with her he told her there was like multiple police reports regarding this case he told her that he loved her in front of the police who were called when he broke a restraining order just to go see her what so it's not unlikely to think that Gerald may have been stalking this young girl and here's what's weird about that when Molly Bish went missing in 2000 the rape victim was actually living on Commons Pond uh Commons Pond Road stop so he ended up doing what he was doing yeah happened to find and happened to find Molly and like let I mean I don't even want to and also I just looked up a photo of him he looks like those eyes yeah those eyes right those eyes that's the same fucking eyes from that but the scariest thing is I mean Rodney looks like him too like it's it's but I'm gonna be honest Gerald looks more like him those eyes I agree with you those are very specific in that sketch yeah and looks like that guy he absolutely does slap a mustache on him and he's like oh my god I don't want to see him well he has a mustache just wait oh and the photo well in the photo I saw he didn't but yeah there's a reason for that yeah I can't this case is stressing me out yeah so I said he also had connections to Holly's case um the woman that he'd been dating the victim's mother was a real estate agent who had a home listed right near Holly's grandmother's house and like the woman uh the mother of the victim her name and picture and everything was on that sign so it was I don't doing it in an area where the mother was because he was upset with her I don't know but weird that yeah those two cases are connected to that man as well very strange yes very strange and also the day that Molly went missing Gerald was working on his wife at the time her car which was a white sedan okay and I mean come on he told her that he took it for a spin out in Warren where Molly went missing yeah and his wife said that was weird because uh he didn't have a license at the time and that once the news of Molly's disappearance broke he shaved his mustache and stopped going places like stayed at home most of the time I I truly when I looked at that photo of Gerald I was like that's the guy oh just those eyes yeah those speedy little fucking eyes specific they are so specific in both of those sketches that is him yeah it's it's it's compelling now but then it's like Rodney was very compelling too I know a lot of it's very compelling those eyes man I can't get past the eyes don't lie they don't the windows to the soul yes yeah there you go well Gerald also loved he liked true crime he loved to watch court tv and he would talk about true crime a lot he talked about the cases he also would apparently like cut out like brutal newspaper clippings and just leave them around the house fun and be like this is how I'm gonna kill you like to his wife so quirky yeah super quirky it was super quirky um but for some reason when his wife brought up the Molly Bish case to him he didn't want to talk about it at all and he told her quote sometimes there's just no evidence yeah I I literally come on and by the way Gerald had been known and it is cited in police reports he had been known to impersonate a police officer so like we said like the first aid kit was open sure maybe that meant something maybe it didn't or I mean maybe she thought she was helping a police officer 100 so maybe that's how he got Molly to trust him and he lured her away when she tried to help him Gerald looks good for this man do we know if he was a smoker I don't know I was gonna say it's probably not oh wait no no that's a lie I do know actually sorry sorry sorry um his wife because I I didn't find this anywhere I saw it in one article so I'm not sure if this is the absolute truth but I guess Maggie like made it a point to um when she was doing the composite sketch to like say how the guy was holding the cigarette or like he's holding it a certain way in the picture yeah I didn't think it was like any specific way like I feel like that's how most people hold it um but his wife said that there was like a certain way that he would hold a cigarette and she said it used to like piss her off really and she noticed that that the man in the sketch is like holding it similarly and she said it used to like piss her off and she said it used to like piss her off or Maggie had said that he was because he was a smoker he's holding it between his two fingers like very like but his fingers are very like rigid yeah like pointed out like almost like somebody would be like parodying someone like smoking like moo you know like I'm smoking a cigarette yeah it just looks like you would be making fun of someone smoking a cigarette yeah I'm so cool because most people like hold it's a little sideways or they'll maybe hold it like between their fingers just like very casually but this he looks very rigid like to a point fingers yeah it is a very specific way to hold your cigarette so I mean there you have it I'm so I'm I Gerald so there's that and then it is also said that he used to buy drugs in Whiskey Hill where Molly's remains were found so he knew that area well too and then the smoking gun Elena this is really gonna send you all the way home he attempted suicide when news broke that he was probably connected to Molly and Holly's case he tried to slit his own throat but it didn't work he was taken to a hospital and treated he did it however I feel like he did it he died in prison in 2014 without confessing to having a part in either case damn it but he is a pretty strong suspect he he to me yeah feels like rock solid he feels pretty solid and it's killing me that he's oh that kills me that kills me I know I remember hearing like bits and pieces of him yeah but I don't remember like following this like as closely as I thought I would have but I didn't see now I'm like what the thing is like obviously I think in like uh Rodney and Randy's cases like there's very like creepy stuff and like honestly there's more creepy stuff about Randy in regards to Holly's case than there is Rodney in regards to um to Molly's case yeah for sure but the thing about Gerald is that there's like a lot of weird shit like first of all like why would you try to commit suicide if you had nothing to do with it exactly why would you shave your mustache when you like obviously that composite sketch went out pretty quickly you put a mustache on that dude it is an exact and he had a mustache he literally shaved it exact and like just all the connections to that he was working on the white Chrysler that wasn't even his that day and then he took it for a spin and fucking Warren and that he's like connected to it because he already is in prison for raping a girl he smokes and he smokes weird and that Molly's mom was saying like it was a very specific way he held this up and he was like I don't know I don't know Right. Which, again, I'm not sure if she said that. that but i did see it in one source like there's so many things on top of so many things and the fact that the woman or the young girl that he raped was living on the same road as the pond and that he was like stalking like obsessed with that girl it seemed like he was yeah it seems like if you're around the area yeah you happen to come around molly and you're probably like angry and annoyed he's probably he's a predator and a disgusting exactly he's a monster yeah go and read more about him because there's more i got to he is just he like used to make his wife wear like children's underwear oh my god get the i can't when i said he's a disgusting monster i didn't want to like say that he is like but oh whatever is happening wherever he is i hope it is like nothing we can imagine no is it stonzie on tiktok who does yes like she like pretends to be the devil in hell i hope that she is like his his hell i was his version of hell i love stonzie she's the best she really is i think isn't it stonzie patenza i think it is i think that's what it is on tiktok she's hilarious go follow her if you haven't side note she is great but so yeah back to this now in 2013 construction started close by to where molly's remains were found and the construction was for a racetrack in the area that was going to be used for um like quote driver education motor vehicle testing demonstration and competition so just a bunch of and the bish family was actually hopeful that some evidence might be discovered during the construction yeah absolutely and maggie gonna be digging around everywhere right exactly and it's a huge area and it's right where her remains were found it's like right there and maggie said quote they and i like i'm so happy that it was like dealt with properly she said they were very very conscientious and took it very seriously about what they could come across good they also said that they'd be very happy and very willing to put up a memorial for molly oh okay so there is a memorial for molly it's like this big yellow sign i i don't know if it's like by her house or if it's the memorial that these people put up i tried to find to figure out where exactly it is but i can only see a picture of it like not where it is oh really yeah we'll have to find out yeah um but i was happy that they like they're yeah they took it so seriously exactly now it's unclear if ever if any evidence was found there like i didn't find any follow-up of any evidence being found when they built the track but i felt like it was worth mentioning yeah for sure and if they did find things maybe they aren't saying it just well and i'm gonna get into like a little bit of that you never know because a year later in 2014 some new evidence was found a partially buried bag was found across the street from where molly's remains were discovered and the bag contained plaid boxer shorts that were similar to the ones that molly had been wearing over her bathing suit oh okay that day she was wearing like just like little shorts and um ink tank top okay so this this bag that was found had shorts that were similar to the ones that she was wearing now that again i haven't found any updated information regarding that discovery like if it led anywhere else but it seems like there's been a few discoveries in recent years that the investigators are holding close to the chest like you would say yeah um it makes sense yeah i couldn't find you don't want to let everything out because no and it does seem like they're kind of getting somewhere like it did yeah for more information i'm not sure if it's true but i'm not sure if it's what i could see it looks like they there seems like there's something yeah maybe something but i mean it's been 20 years so they probably have to go over everything like over and over again oh for sure now some more like pretty big news broke during a 2014 campaign that molly's family put together it's called the just one piece campaign uh excuse me just one piece campaign now the name comes from the hope that people will realize that like just one more piece of evidence could solve this entire case or help the investigation and it serves as a reminder that the investigation that no information in this case is too small yeah like if you know even just an inkling of something call and say it yeah for sure if you really know it to be true um but so they put together this campaign and people can come forward to make confidential statements during this that may help the investigation awesome so in 2014 they had this and four people came forward to identify a new person of interest apparently there was a man staying at a campground nearby and he was gone like one whole day and he was like oh my god i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry whole entire day and it was the day that molly went missing and he came back the next day and his face was like all messed up there was like scratches and his face was bloody and he was talking excuse me he was yelling about quote something bad that happened in the woods the night before what yes and then apparently again he's not named but in recent years he has allegedly been bragging to people that he knows he's a person of interest and they still haven't like come around to interview him what yeah so strange now his name like i said still hasn't been released but that does make me slightly like hopeful that they might be on to something here yeah if they're not releasing his name that's interesting that's pretty big i think that's interesting now another piece of information that came out during the same campaign the just one more piece campaign was about a white car that may be buried at old sawmill campground in west brookfield i'm not sure if it's the same camp campground that the unidentified man was staying at but i couldn't determine that yeah um the property isn't a campground anymore and it's owned by a different person than it was at the time of molly's death now the new owner gave permission for the property to be searched and ground penetrating radar was used to search the ground for a car that is supposedly buried beneath the campground oh my god and quote compelling anomalies were found during the search stop yes now i haven't seen any update about this since 2018 like the search for the car i don't know if they found the car i don't know anything because like mama i was looking like trixie mattel mama i was looking for this and looking and looking i spent like an hour just trying to find out any update on the car situation i am dying i haven't found one i haven't found one but again it gives me hope that like maybe they did find something and they are just not saying it right now or they're really like tread and walk like they're treading on the road trying to make sure they do everything right because they do know that like things are connecting i hope i hope i hope i hope so they went out there one day and they said that like they found some stuff and then they came back a couple days later and like looked around some more now an unnamed man who looks a lot like the composite sketch actually still lives in the same area which i don't he could be the man that people are coming forward about he's a known fisher and hunter and he was friends with the original owner of that campground and heather bish molly's there was construction equipment at the campground that could have been used to aid in burying that car oh because i was gonna that was how you bury a fucking car i was like damn that's a lot of work to bury a car but then if you're friends with the guy that works there and there's already equipment you can just dig a giant hole stick the car in there boom like put it in neutral you're good to go oh my god i gotta know now heather bish seems to be the one who is really taking things over for the family right now um john seems to be the one who's really taking things over for like they're definitely they're not like old at all but they're older now and i mean they've been through a lot in their life so for sure i think heather is like really like almost like the spokesperson and like really like keeping this alive but everybody in the family has done like i'm gonna get into it in a second but she heather said that she will fight until her dying day to find out who this person was and what happened to her sister oh my god i want to like help her are you too this this is making me crazy i'll let you on to something at the end of this so molly's memory is kept alive in some really beautiful ways the entire family like i just said i'm gonna get into it now they have done the most incredible work they've provided thousands of families from massachusetts connecticut and new york with like thousands and thousands of identification kits for their children you know how like when a kid is little you like fingerprint them you know i don't i don't even know what goes into it but the reason that they did this is because they didn't really have they had like prom pictures and stuff of molly yeah it just wasn't a thing back then but it wasn't exactly what she looked like so they had trouble finding a recent picture of her yeah so they helped other families so that like god forbid they were ever in the circumstance they would have all the things right there to be like here's all of the things you will need to find them yes yeah which is like so amazing so like scary when you think about it but it's something that needs to be done unfortunately which is horrific that it needs to be done right they also set up the molly bish foundation and they have traveled for years to different events all about protecting children against crimes like the they helped bring the amber alert to massachusetts amazing they worked on like countless different legislations that are like all about protecting children all about like crimes regarding children abductions and they also set up another foundation uh the molly bish center for the protection of of the children and the elderly my god so they have just like essentially dedicated their lives to getting just not only getting justice for molly but like preventing this from ever happening to another family well and to take that kind of tragedy and that kind of grief and turn it around like nightmare situation and turn it into something like so positive right so like to reach out to other families and like that's just like because literally like your world just implodes on you like oh no one imaginable no one would blame anybody in that family for just like going to bed and like never like oh being becoming ever again yeah like never wanting to talk to another person ever again i would not blame anybody in that family for just like going to bed and like never like oh being the same ever one soul of them, but to see this is like. Wow. They dedicated their entire lives to this. And Heather has gone on, like, different, like, podcasts. She's, like, talked to different news outlets and everything. Like, Heather really wants to get this case solved for her sister and for her family. I want this for her so badly. I want it for her so badly. So this past year on June 27th, for the 20th anniversary of Molly's disappearance, Heather asked that neighbors and people along the drive to Coman's Pond leave their porch light on or a candle in the window. And also that people leave a kindness rock at the sign near the Bish House, which when I read that, I was like, is that the sign? Like, the yellow one? But leave a kindness rock there, she asked them to do it, so that Maggie can use them in her garden. I want to bring a kindness rock. Dude, I literally, in my mind, I was like, I want to drive there right now. I want to go and leave a kindness rock. I know. She drove her parents to the pond that day to remember Molly, as they always do on June 27th. Oh. Yeah. Now, District of. Attorney Joseph D. Early Jr. recently said, quote, The Molly Bish case is turning 20 years old, now 21. But the tips still come in every week, and every tip is followed up on. We have had many items tested for DNA over the years, and we continue to do so. This case is very active, and a tremendous amount of work is being done. I am hopeful it will be solved. And investigators ask that people come forward and share their DNA, especially now that familial DNA is becoming really helpful in cold cases. Yeah. Like, they're really asking for people to do that. Now, this is so important. If you're listening to anything, listen to this. Anyone with information about the Molly Bish case can call the state police tip line at 508-453-7575. Again, 508-453-7575. Amazing. And Heather Bish said, just to end this, quote, If the person who did this could have a change of heart and tell us what happened, it would give us a certain amount of peace and closure, just as far as justice is concerned. Ugh. So that is the really, really, really tragic case of Molly Bish. You did such a good job with that. And also this case. Wow. I really hope that we can, like, deliver some kind of update, like. I hope so. As soon as possible. I swear, I wish. I, like, want to help. I know. I do, too. I just want to help. It's one of those cases you always feel so helpless in. These, like, this particular case just. It's. I think. Resonates. Yeah. The fact that it's a Massachusetts case. Yeah. The fact that it's, like, just the. The fact that it happened so quickly, it was clearly, like, somewhat planned. Yeah. It just. Yeah. It's definitely. I know it definitely. Part of it is, like, Massachusetts family just feel like you're just like, I just want to help you. One, like, watching interviews with this family, like, I watched so many interviews and just, like, different, like, reading different things that they said, they're just, like, your typical family. Like, they're, like, your friends. Like, your best friend's family or, like. Yeah. They're just very relatable people. I just want to give them what they deserve. Yeah. I want to give them. I want to give them some kind of closure and some kind of peace. I really do. Well, if you go to the Molly Bish Foundation website, they have different ways, like, where you can help. Like, if you want to get involved in this, that's the perfect place for you to go. They have different resources where you can. Because sometimes you just feel, like, so helpless listening to a story like this. Like, I have on, like, on different things and I'm like, I want to do something, but I feel like. You're like, I can't. So. Go there. Go there and figure out how to help. At least try. Yeah. And it's seriously, if you know something, call that number that I said. Yes. Yes. Only if you know something, like, for real. Yes, please. But, like they said, like, no matter how little you think it is, it could be make or break. You never know. Yeah. Because it could connect to something else that you don't even know exists. Yeah. So, if you know anything, if you heard anything, if you saw anything, anything. Jog your memory. Yeah. Just think about it. Think about it, mass holes. Come on, mass holes. Come on. We're good at this stuff. We are. But, yeah. Wow. So, that is that. Thank you for that. And thank you, Patronuses, for choosing that case. Because that was one we always intended to cover. Absolutely. But you guys just sped it up. So, thank you for finally getting us to do it. Moving that to the top of our list. Yeah. We just got off the phone with a very special guest. Yes. And I'm, like, hyped that we got to do this. Yeah. It was amazing. It was. So, in episode 214, we covered the case of Molly Bish. Molly Bish was a 16-year-old lifeguard who, on the morning of June 27th, 2000, was essentially abducted from her lifeguard post and really just, honestly, go back and listen to the episode if you need, like, a refresher or anything like that. In plain daylight. Yeah. Because in plain daylight, she was abducted from her – it was literally 10 o'clock in the morning. Yeah. Terrifying. It's so scary. But we – before, actually, I – we did the episode, I actually reached out to Molly's sister, Heather, who's, like, very active in trying to solve Molly's case because this is an unsolved case. Yeah. Which is crazy. It's, like, 20-plus years later. It's so crazy. And it's so sad. It's, like, a very tragic case. And we're from Massachusetts. So, it's, like – Right. I feel like everybody from Massachusetts feels like they have some kind of, like, personal stake in this case. Like, you just – you want to see this. And, like, you'll hear in the interview, we love the Bish family. And I just feel like they are, like, our family. Yeah. And we want to – we want this case to be solved for them. They're, like, our Massachusetts brethren. They are. So, before – I mean, I read a ton about Heather before I started – or while I was researching the case because she's so involved in trying to figure everything out. So, we actually reached out to Heather and said, hey, you know, we're going to cover Molly's case if you want to come on the show for, like, an afterwards kind of interview to tell us about the work that she's been doing to really get this case solved. And then tell us what we can do and the numbers that we can call and reach out to to help her get this case solved. Exactly. Because this is unsolved, which is nuts. So, I'm so stoked that Heather was willing to do that. And she joined us for an episode. And you guys are going to love this episode. She's amazing. You're all going to fall in love with her. Heather Bish is an icon. And what we talk about a lot in this – I just want to put it out first so that everybody can, like, start Googling it while it's beginning because it's important – is she's really starting to – or starting – she's really in the – deep in the process of trying to push forward the bill, which is S-1595 in Massachusetts. And she will – I'll let her explain in the episode what it's all about. It's basically to help push forward DNA that was found in Molly's case and also can help in other cases for rape cases. It's – it has tons of implications. So, go look that up real quick before the episode starts because I think you're going to want to know what's in there. Yeah, definitely. And then after the episode is over, whip out your cell phone and just start calling everyone we said to call. Yeah. We'll take a look at the show notes. I'll make sure I put all the information in there for you guys to – so we can get this case solved. It's time. It is. It's time for Molly and it's time for the Bishes. It's time for this all. So, I think without further ado, here it is. Enjoy, guys. Enjoy, guys. Well, thank you so much, Heather, for coming on the show. We're honestly really honored to have you as a guest and we appreciate you even taking the time to talk to us. Oh, that's so kind. You guys are really – I'm appreciative with what you're doing and sharing these stories and sharing Molly's story, especially, you know, that's so important, especially with these older cases. I mean, this is – this podcast phenomenon has just been so interesting. It's been so interesting to me and I'm just, like, cheering all of you guys on the sidelines. I love it. You know, for every case that's getting pieces of information coming forward or even arrests happening, I'm just in awe of the work of all the – excuse me – creators that are out there, you know, really sharing these stories. So, I am honored. Oh, thank you so much. That was so sweet. We were both just sitting there like, oh, my God. Thank you. Already off to a wholesome start. I know, right? Well, like you – I mean, like you were saying, this case, Molly's case specifically, it captivated, I mean, the nation. Yeah. It captivated everyone. And we got requests to cover Molly's case from all over the world. Like, before we covered it, people were like, please cover this case. And we were always waiting to do it because we wanted to do it really right because we're from Massachusetts, too. So, we were like – We felt like a connection to this. Yeah. We feel like this is, like, one of our family members because, you know, here in Massachusetts, we're all just, like – We're all just, like, feeling like we're one. So, we were like, we got to do this right. And I think when that happens, it can be, you know, it can be great because, like, information is getting out there. People are behind this case, wanting to solve it, wanting to move it forward. But I imagine it must be kind of hard, too, in a way, for family members because you have memories of Molly as a sister. Your brother has memories of Molly as a sister. Your parents have memory of Molly as a daughter. She was a lifeguard. She was a friend. And she was a person. She's not just Molly Bish, the murder victim. And I think sometimes that can get lost in translation, which I imagine can be kind of difficult for you guys at times. It is. And, you know, I think there's some, you know, there's some – I don't know. I think when there's, like, a benefit of being able to talk about Molly, I think when you lose someone you love, whether it's a sibling or a spouse or your best friend, you know, people can – kind of get weird and they don't want to say it. anything. And sometimes they'll even avoid walking down the same hallway as you, you know, just to not be in that awkward position. And I think, and so, you know, people don't get a chance to talk about the person that they loved, you know, and sometimes people are afraid to bring it up because, you know, that loss was so sad and so devastating. But having the chance to talk about Molly, you know, and share, you know, the work that we do is really a reflection of Molly's love and her love for the world and people. And it's kept us going. And I guess that is a really special privilege of all this craziness and all the ugliness is that we do get to talk about my sister and think about her and share how our special memories and our moments of joy and how we were proud of her. And sometimes my brother and I will, you know, have conversations after we, you know, I do these podcasts or, or there's a, you know, a news article or something. And we'll talk about like, what do you think she'd be like, or who would she still be friends with from her friend group? Or what would she think of this particular situation? Or, you know, and, and it's, you know, it's, it's kind of, you know, fun for us to do that, to imagine what our life would be like to have her with us still, because we miss her. I mean, that loss is still felt every single day. You know, I miss calling her when something good happens. I really miss her on my birthday. I hate my birthday without my sister. It's, it's still awful. 20 years later, I just, she should be there with me. And every year that I have to face without her, it's just, it's like, you know, ripping that, that scab off and, and bleeding again. So it's, yeah, it's hard, but there's, there is, you try to, I guess, when there's hard things, always look for, um, those moments, uh, that offer, you know, the good and, and try to embrace that because I don't know how we would survive all this terrible stuff in the world if we didn't. Seriously. I can't even imagine trying to navigate this whole entire thing, you know, on top of everything else in the world. So, right. You have such a healthy way of looking at it. Of coping. Yeah. That I think a lot of people would have trouble doing. Can we plug mental health? Mental health and taking care of our emotional health right now and be not afraid to go to therapy for 20 years. Absolutely. Because it's so important to continue to unwrap how you're responding to the world and, and how your family culture, um, sort of trained you to respond to the world and how, you know, either continue that or, or maybe think about a different way of doing it. Exactly. Yeah. We're Irish Catholic over here. So we know all about that. We grew up in a big Irish Catholic family. So we're like, maybe we should talk about our feelings. Right. I just, I love the generation. I, again, I work at a college, so I have the privilege of working with the younger, um, generations and I just love how they're growing up so much more inclusively and talking about feelings. And I just think it's going to make a better world someday. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. For sure. I know. And it's really up to us at this point to teach the other younger generation. To teach the older generation how to do that. Cause I think our, our parents' generation was like right at that point where they were like, kind of ready to tell us to talk about our feelings. Telling the line. Right. It gets better each time. Yep. Exactly. Yeah. Well, going off of that, what is like one thing about Molly from a sister's perspective that you want people to know about Molly or even like a specific memory that you guys have together that makes you smile? Uh, I think I, I, I always talk about Molly's love for the world. Molly loved people. She loved animals. She loved babies. She loved being outside the sunshine, a beautiful day, getting an ice cream cone. She loved living. She loved life. She loved being a part of what was happening around her. And, um, I think, you know, when I think about Molly and I, I guess I'm always most proud of, um, how she welcomed people. She, when she had, um, an art class, she had some special needs. And I always tell the story of how she would write them, um, a note and kind of like encouraging them to be a part of the class and welcoming them and making them feel at home because they weren't in the other classes with the rest of the students. They weren't like a sub-separate classroom and, you know, just her empathy and her ability to think about other people, that thoughtfulness. And I, I try to carry that out with me in my life and, and think about different perspectives and turn things over all the time. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and she was my baby sister, but that's what she taught me in my life. And, you know, I, I hope that people know that the work that we do is because of that, because Molly cared so much about people. She cared so much about the world and, and, you know, making people feel safe and comfortable in their environment. And that's, you know, that's sort of, you know, the premise of everything that we want, um, to see happening. And, you know, I guess when you have a case that's 20, almost 21 years old, you're like, where is this guy? And has he hurt other people? And you, you know, you, you know, you guys explore all these various cases and, you know, there's a lot of bad guys out there. There's a lot. And it's so scary. And you can go from, you know, being a narcissist to a murderer in, you know, a short time. And again, you know, that mental health is so important. But, um, you know, I think just trying to, um, you know, live in a way that we're, we're trying to make the world safer because of Molly. Um, and, and so, you know, recently I've been working on this familial DNA, um, legislation in Massachusetts, which they have in, in like, I think 14 other States. And it's just really just a process to test the, uh, DNA or unidentified DNA from an older case or an older, you know, maybe a rape case or, or a murder. Um, and be able to have a larger, I call it a net to sort of get the bad guy. Um, and, you know, we have this coded system that, um, has all of our, our, um, felonies in their, um, DNA profiles, uh, theoretically. I know you guys know this. Oh, no. Yeah. No, go ahead though. Yeah. Cause this is, this is Bill. Um, is it S 1595. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Cause we were, we were going to ask you like, by all means, tell us as much as you can about that. Cause we want everybody to know about that. Yeah. So, so it just really, what it does is it allows law enforcement to put this unidentified DNA forward into CODIS again and test for a partial match or familial match. So it might, you know, touch on someone 56% or 37%, but that will lead investigators to say, Hmm, someone in this family committed this rape or committed this murder. And they can go back to the drawing board and sort of figure out where the players were in that family that day. It narrows the field like unbelievably. And I, and what's interesting to me that I found out is that 50% of the people in CODIS have a relative in CODIS. So. It's so funny. Cause I came across that too. And it shocked me. I know that's a high number. But then I thought like, okay, well, there's a lot of teachers in my family. That's my family culture. And I guess it's, you know, you're in a family culture that, you know, rape or molest each other. That's going to continue. And so they want to have, you know, people getting arrested in the same family network that are experiencing that trauma. I mean, we all know that these behaviors aren't, you know, coming out of the blue. Most people are turning to crime and, and these horrific things that they, that they do to other people because of trauma. Oh yeah. Nurture is a huge part of it. Yeah. So, you know, it's that, that's a sad societal number story for us. But if we look at it in a law enforcement perspective or a victim perspective, those are, I mean, those are, those are, those are odds I'd put money on at a casino, you know? Oh yeah. Yeah. Seriously. For real. You know, we're going to get the bad guy and we're using science and it hasn't, you know, you know, we're going to get the bad guy and we're using science and it hasn't, you know, unidentified, it identified the wrong person, you know, it's actually used by the innocence project in Michigan as a way to exonerate people. So really it's just for that, for this bill, it's just setting up a protocol and how we would do it in Massachusetts. And I'm just really, really hopeful that, you know, we can get this through. We have an 8,000, about an 8,000 rape kit backlog in Massachusetts. So we would need to get on top of what's happening. I mean, we're leaders with MIT and WPI. There's no reason we're cranking out forensic scientists in Boston and, and they're all leaving the state. We need to, you know, sort of put some resources together for our forensic, I think. Absolutely. Definitely. Yeah. We need to nourish this. We have it here. We're building it here. We need to nourish it here. Right. Exactly. And, you know, we have a lot of, you know, Worcester County alone has 40 to 60, unresolved cases. That's so crazy. So sad. back to the 50s and you know technology might be able to identify this by now you know so it's just i think it's just so important to use what what scientific you know resources are available for law enforcement i mean in in today's society i mean there's you know good cops and bad cops just like everything good teachers and bad teachers and we want to give the good police all the tools available to get those bad people off the street so you know there aren't like there aren't a thousand rights happening yeah right because i think that's that's one of the huge things about this is this bill can not only help cases like molly's and families you know that are going through the same thing that you're going through but this can those rape kits that are sitting on the shelf it's like this can get rapists off the street like this is something everybody should be invested in and everybody should be behind absolutely 100 and you know some of these rates are are violent yeah you know like like i keep trying to stress and i you know i know i'm preaching to the choir with you guys but you know it's a hair's breadth away when when someone commits one crime to go to the next level of course you know it is in a state of sort of paranoia or psychosis to go you know further deeper i think we just you know we need all our tools available absolutely because some of these can connect to more violent you know uh offenders offenses yeah like you know somebody raped someone and they could have escalated to something else and we have no idea right yep exactly exactly do you think oh oh sorry go ahead oh i so i was just gonna say i i you know i'm just really hopeful this time that it will go through because we started this about two years ago um i had talked to my my law enforcement um detectives and they had they had a lot of questions about you know what's going on and they had a lot of asked that you know how they if you want you want to work on something we could really use this familial dna and i had no idea what it was at the time i'm just like okay let's do it sure you're like anything let's do it you know being in massachusetts they're like every other state has done this as a policy and massachusetts is like nope we want a law and so it's just a higher thanks mass but i'm like i will climb every mountain i will scream from the mountaintop until i'm done with it and i'm like i'm gonna do it i'm gonna do it i'm gonna do it i'm gonna do it i'm gonna do it i'm gonna do it i'm gonna do it i'm gonna do it i'm gonna do it i get this guy and who care how far it takes me i am bound and determined and you know now it's you know when you're in that club you know that everybody talks about that nobody wants to belong to like this um you know you really start caring about all these other victims particularly the ones at attention like i constantly talk about patty gagne who was murdered in worcester her brother found her the next day you know people didn't search for patty like they did for molly you know and they she didn't get the national attention that molly has gotten and you know i just hope that maybe this will help solve patty gagne's case too absolutely it's important as as all these other victims um that i've seen on the news and and in podcasts and um you know so yeah we're all in this together and and you know i'm just really hopeful that this will go through this time because we during covid um it kind of fell apart and i i was on the mathematics person's task force so we were kind of looking at legislation that was floating around in massachusetts and trying to um put a report together to encourage the legislators to just pass this kind of no-brainer so yeah and they they said why don't we uh why don't we send your bill heather over to the forensic oversight committee and you know being an educator i'm like yes i i am used to working with like you know when i have a problem i'm working with the autism specialist and the you know the fourth grade teacher and you know we're all kind of coming up with something together and i literally did this bill myself but you know a special ed teacher not a forensic but here we go you're like i am putting on another hat seriously so um it worked out really well because they provide the feedback where we were able to edit the bill really um to fit our logistical you know structures and systems in massachusetts and i think it's going in really strong and i've been spending probably the last two months calling legislators and just asking them to support this and so i'm really excited about it and i'm really excited about it and i'm you know most of them will will see me or or see me over zoom and and have been really supportive but you know some of them won't meet with me because i'm not in their jurisdiction so i've been trying to start doing tick tocks um and and whatever media i can use to sort of get people who are in you know just people to react to reach out to their legislators and ask them to support this bill um and be the voice that i can't be in their jurisdiction to possibly get this passed um you know it's just it's important for victim families it's important for law enforcement and it's most important for the justice where where all these victims that we have a hundred percent definitely do you is there anything else that people can do like people listening other like call legislation obviously yeah i would say that would be the most important thing if people could call their legislators and just ask them to support us 1595 um in massachusetts and we have a list of legislators on our website oh great um mollybish.com um so people if you don't know who your legislator is or turned over you know things are kind of crazy this year with covid who knows what who's who but that's good you have that right there for people to find and we'll share we'll put that the link in our show notes for this so people will have all the places they can go yeah we can even picture of it yeah thank you so much i really appreciate that oh absolutely i think this is like huge like i'm we are fully like yes let's do this when we stepped into this case and just kind of started going through everything i think because we are sisters it yeah almost gave us that extra edge that like we want to help you we feel so connected to this yeah it felt like molly was like we felt like your family reminded us so much of our family our big massachusetts family like we just your parents just like i remember us in the episode we're just like oh my god i just love this family and i want them to get justice so badly oh thank you so much i just you know i feel like that's you know molly's love signing down somehow because when i started this it's so interesting i there was like a you know a little article in the cape cod times i live out here in cape cod now and um so this man um emailed me from california his name is um rock harman and he's actually the dna expert that travels the world training law enforcement and prosecutors and defense attorneys on using dna and the different tools and i didn't i don't know who i'm talking to but he you know he was very nice and really coaching me and helping me really understand the science part which was really imperative for me to do this yeah huge so turns out he was um a former prosecutor on the oj simpson case oh wow so um touched by you know what had happened in that case that that became a sort of a mission for him and you know retired in california and he's been you know sending me articles and explaining things for me going to meetings with me talking to district attorneys to explain and the little nuances between like ystr profiles and familial dna and what is this what are these little differences um so he you know to me those are like when mr roger talks about look for the you know look for the helpers yes look for the helpers yes that's the helpers and that's um you know the those are the things you hold on to in life and remember all the good and the good people that are still out there um because we're much stronger than than you know these people who are really sick and and committed horrific acts right and there's been a lot of people of interest it seems over the course of the past 20 years is there anyone on the suspect list that or anyone on uh as a person of interest that you think is a good candidate for this or do you think that it's someone we maybe even haven't looked at yet yeah i wish you know i i wish i could just feel like you know that sisterly connection that that's the guy but there's so much circumstantial circumstantial evidence so much some particular people that have been out there in the media and um you know i think that's a good candidate you know there's always that wild card that was this just someone that happened to go smoke a cigarette asked before he went to work or after he dropped off you know his mother asked at an appointment or something and saw this lifeguard there and then came back the next day and grabbed her yeah you know i i've never really been able to identify the guy in the white car he's never come forward so could he be rodney stanford could he be daryl daryl bastoni could he be um you know any of the number of other people that have been brought up right possibly possibly because we know witness you know um testimony is kind of tricky and my mom you know saw the guy but you know it's hard to say that's the guy that's the guy that's definitely the guy they all look like the guy yeah they all do in some specific way it's true it must be so frustrating too because i'm sure you get this really giant feeling of hope every time a new person is introduced absolutely i do and you know you you just you know you try to make sense of who who would um how would they exist after and who you know who could possibly do this after 20 years and just sit you know what are they doing now I mean that I think what gives me the most anxiety is where is this guy and what is he doing if he's in jail great if he's dead great if he's one of those two guys and he's either dead or in jail then okay but right and so it's hard to rest you know oh I can't imagine know that and um uh you know I I wish I I wish I could you know know I you know we talked to psychics I mean when Molly first disappeared I had a an 11 year old baby and I would have her on my hip and I'd be running through the woods with these psychics and I mean I didn't know if I was going to find my sister's body or or something you know it was so terrifying but you didn't know what to do and you're just trying to do something um but you know no one's ever been able to say exactly and point me to the evidence I mean I've worked with some really really great psychics I think are you know meaning well and authentic but still have not been able to break down you know who did this and and you know so I've tried I've tried every avenue for sure I mean we've put up billboards we've taken out ads in newspapers we've um I put up posters in 351 towns in Massachusetts and um you know I've actually hired producers to document a YouTube movie video um so so that I could keep my you know parents story and and and sort of a summary on the story and and be able to share it because of the time lapse and people not you know necessarily remembering what happened right um so you know we've tried everything and you know this the results of the familial searching and across the country are just so phenomenal and really hopeful and you know that even the genetic genealogy work they're doing um I'm just so hopeful that Massachusetts will really grab onto that and and and demonstrate you know the the leadership that they um should be having in this field I think yeah because it does feel like it's like it's like right there like it could be hidden in there somewhere why are we not doing this I mean the stuff they're doing in California is is unbelievable yeah I mean we have this controversy right now with these YSPR lists um and um some of the district attorneys are keeping what what the forensic lab in Massachusetts is calling rogue lists but I would I would probably just call them unregistered regulated yeah that makes sense so they would get like a profile back you know they might get a crime scene um DNA or or sometimes they they're even they they're even using voluntary DNA but they're you know putting it through the lab it doesn't have a hit then they're keeping the the profile um separately I'm not really supposed to do that but they're saying nothing saying that they can't do that and Bristol County was able to solve a case um with Plymouth working together um on that the thing is YSPR only gives you father-son profiles so it's a little more limiting oh okay but and so if you did like like if you like if I was in charge of the world or the you know you do the first CODIS search right and then you do the because that's gonna catch the wire net you actually don't need the YSPR profile if you do the familial kind of negates it oh that makes sense right yeah so but I mean if they're not in CODIS it's I mean I you know there's value to it if it's regulated um Orange County uses it in California and they basically will like let a guy off on a misdemeanor if he gives them their DNA and then they test them for a rape you know three months later I mean they're dealing with a probably a different population you know gang life out there and stuff but um um you know it's an effective tool and certainly has demonstrated to be effective here and I think that maybe it's just maybe a separate bill that needs to be um put forward differently but I always try to like explain it because you know it's on the news and sometimes the reporters don't go into the whole story of what's really happening here and you know I get why that the DAs are doing it again they want to solve these 8,000 rates that are backlogged at the lab they're definitely committed to getting the bad guys off the street it's just you know you know again I think we just need to update our 22e law and and make these um you know changes to our protocols so that we can do these tests and um you know have these tools and see what happens definitely one of the things that we actually talked about in our episode was um at the old sawmill campground that you guys use the ground penetrating radar and I didn't really see any update on that after like 2018 was that any did anything like useful come of that or anything at all oh no that's that was a good one so I you know have have worked with a number of different private investigators over you know since I guess when my father had a stroke I kind of took over the investigation in 2007 so I worked up for different a couple different ones bringing different people forward um we had a volunteer in our foundation who who you know was volunteering in 2003 when she was getting her degrees in um criminal criminology and forensics and stuff like that she ended up getting a doctorate and moving back here um you know a few years before that um ground penetrating car thing happened and she was trying to help me because I you know again I'm like running out of ideas okay I put up you know posters I put up ads I put up um you know all these things what what else can I do and so we came up with an idea of doing a tip campaign and she was going to use her students from college where she taught to collect the tips and then we sort of organized them and then present them to the police and so that's how this third person of interest sort of came forward um that she sort of identified through these um this tip campaign um because of that she felt really strongly that there was a car in this campground so she arranged with someone from the University of Connecticut to come out and use this ground penetrating radar however our state at my daughter's um she was just starting college orientation um and so we were you know I was available and it turned into sort of this media circus and I was kind of upset because it was supposed to be like you know I like to work with the police you know again I recognize all the issues I'm literally have a book ready to publish on my relationship with the police and how it's impacted my life oh wow congratulations on writing a book that's a couple letters to do but you know I still try to work with them I try to um encourage best practices and and have the hope that this institution is going to um you know someday get the get the concept here that's great lightly enough but um so so I was kind of upset that she you know had it turn out this way and so so I was kind of upset that she you know had it turn out this way and so I was kind of upset that she and um and she just kept pushing she ended up having a um a press conference without my my our knowledge acknowledgement oh no he said so it really and I was like you're you've crossed my boundaries now yeah absolutely let's stop this now and so I never found out what happened with the car I don't think it's I'm certain that the police could get that information um and they were so irritated and so close to like charging her that um it never so I don't think that there's anything to the campground or the car okay that makes sense yeah that's so frustrating yeah and then she wrote a book after oh oh my goodness yeah are you kidding me that is not okay but you know what she did it would have been fine if she had done like a case study on molly yeah again she had the education to do that but she put my parents speeches into the book and like put herself into our story like she was part of our life oh no oh that that honestly like gives me like a pit in my stomach yeah I was good I was gonna say my stomach just flipped so gross literally like she wrote letters to molly in this book like if you read this book holy smokes oh hate that see that's the thing that's frustrating like yeah to go through that yeah very betraying very violating yeah that's the thing violation is what it feels like right yeah yeah yeah very very much so oh so um yeah I mean that's where that went so I'm kind of just um doing this on my own but um so appreciative of these you know podcasts updating about the case and and you know the work that we're trying to do to keep it going and um you know I'm not sure what I'll have to do after after this bill but I'm sure there's there's more work to be done too um support these cases um you know I was talking to a producer the other day and I said if I told you um that I was in a relationship with someone who you know gaslighted me and projected and um you know and I kind of gave her some specific situations that happened and she's like oh yeah I would say you're in an abusive relationship and I said what if I told her that was a state police and it wasn't a man oh my god that was the perfect way to do that that's awesome no the drop yeah oh she's like hold on a sec does that change things or and I told her I said and and then I'm a white woman with a sister who's blonde and blue-eyed and we know those cases get more attention yeah and I have and I have a doctor I'm educated and I'm still treated this way so how do you imagine and my father was in law enforcement he was a probation officer so there's a you know they're a little nice about my dad but you know if they're treating me this way how do you think they're treating patty gunn's family yes absolutely that's that's I think for probably a lifelong work that all of us victim family members are pushing and sort of trying to figure out how to um you know get our points across and get them to understand our perspective without being sort of labeled the crazy victim family matter of course right well and I feel like that's something we can all take from molly and who she was and who you know you knew her as and who everyone who knew her knew her as which is like empathy caring about the world caring about other people like putting yourself in somebody else's shoes what everybody should be learning is like it it's not just about mine it's about everybody else's too you know what it's like be molly in art class yeah exactly right that should be everybody's thought it should right I love it I'm so happy you shared that with us that made me honestly like choke up a little bit I know that's great oh thank you guys I really appreciate it oh yeah absolutely one of the other things that we had spoken about in our episode and I was just curious as to your opinion on this is um the holly perrinan case I know it's like heavily compared to molly's case and some of the suspects or persons of interest were looked at in both cases do you think that maybe those cases are connected or what are your thoughts on that I think it's a good question I think it's a good you know I think that there is certainly um lots of room to look at the connections I think that's really incredibly important but I don't necessarily think it's the same person but I do that you know my father used to say if you lay down with dogs you're gonna get fleas yeah watch who your friends are right absolutely I kind of think that there's a group out in that area again these generational trauma you know same kind of history of violence history of family violence history of beatings history of law stations history of you know uncle marion the cousin sister's brother you know like that kind of stuff and they're all connected in these weird ways and that's the stuff I talked to the detectives about because I'm like do you understand this I know when I walk into your office it's not going to be like um you know like the tv shows where you go and you're like oh my god I'm going to be like oh my god I'm going to be like oh my god I'm got the all the guys and the strings connecting people and you know we always talk about that literally don't even have data systems that talk to each other barely right so so to even look up a guy you know that from a while ago is is difficult for them and then to get the larger perspective of um sorry oh no it's okay I have a dog too so I get it and so to have those nuances and know that this guy was best friends with this guy or their cousins or their they used to um I don't know ride motorcycles together like those little nuances I'm afraid are missed yeah um they don't know they're not from you know Warren Massachusetts or Sturbridge Massachusetts so you don't necessarily know that you know and I'm making these names up the Smiths are related to the Johnsons or whatever they they don't have that kind of network information so that's the stuff I'm afraid gets lost and that those are the key pieces that I think could possibly show that there's a tie in between Holly and Molly's case yeah I mean different you know ages different situations and how they were certainly different times and again I keep trying to say I mean I think it's so easy to want to believe that it's one bad guy killing all these girls in a specific area the sad reality is that there's a lot of different bad guys and they're all killing different girls or exactly it's like indicative of like a darker pathology as a whole right in the community you know that like a subculture isn't looked at yeah yep exactly exactly and that's what's so scary and and that's why it's so important to continue um to look for ways to protect um you know our children and our women and you know our our society and you know sharing these stories and and working on legislation and and um encouraging the mental health component I think I just yes you know that's um important pieces to continue to talk about and and discuss and and provide reasons why yeah definitely exactly I think I mean oh sorry go ahead I'm just gonna say real quick I think one of the really um transformative moments for me was when that little girl and I don't know if you remember well maybe two years ago now there's a little girl abducted in Springfield Massachusetts yes and burlar and he was recovered I mean I'll bet that she had been through some pretty bad trauma but he was recovered alive and I called my mom and I said mom that was your state because we always when we started the foundation we were always like we don't know if we're really helping you know we don't know if we're saving children like there's no you know data system saying oh this kid wasn't abducted because you know Maggie Bish helped bring Amber Alert to Massachusetts or started missing Children's Day or you know started talking about child identification kits um so when that happened and my mom did um work on the Amber Alert law coming to Massachusetts and um talked Ted Kennedy into um signing that bill and and so I felt like she needed that she needed to know that that little girl had been saved because of her work and her efforts and I think if we continue to do things like that you know other little girls will be saved and and you know maybe we won't have to um you know experience these kinds of tragedies and traumas anymore and again if we continue to look at trauma and and understand it and and try to support people through it um you know maybe things will look differently for everybody absolutely I think that's like the main message there right there right and also your family is there's you are such badasses you have done so much for me and I'm so grateful for that and I'm so grateful for such incredible work all of you together it's unreal oh thank you I mean again I think it's just um you know an outlet to love my sister and and you know share that love and and that's really all you can do when you're faced with something like this yeah no it really is I think kind of just to end all of this what can what what is one last thing you can tell us all that we can do to help you and your family get through this yeah I think that's a really good question and I think that's a really good question and I think that's a really good question and I think that's a really good question and I think that's a really good question and I think that's a really good question molly's case solved well I think the best thing anyone could do right now is to go on mollyvich.com and find their Massachusetts legislator and if they're in Massachusetts and reach out to him or her and ask them to support s1595 to be passed this this year if you're not from Massachusetts um you know continuing to share molly's story continuing to share the results of familial DNA analysis across the country I mean right now we only have about 14 15 states that have it and there's 50 states in this country so we really get on get on this because there's certainly molly's case and you know isn't the only case I mean whether it's friends in Minnesota and um Florida who have experienced um equally traumatizing abductions in their family and you know having these tools are are important for all of us to have um in this country and to keep us all safer absolutely and I think I want to encourage everyone to go to the molly bish foundation web page which will we're going to link all of these things in the show notes so everybody can get to all this also if you want to read bill s1595 um I'm going to link where you can read that too because you can go on the mass legislator.gov website to find it uh but I think this is it's important everybody should know that this is like so far reaching this is so necessary it's so important to know that this is like so far reaching this is so necessary it's so important that this bill goes through so everybody give your support yeah as a true crime community let's come together and get this done absolutely thank you so much I really appreciate it no thank you yeah thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us and everything you shared was just like so so eye-opening yeah it really was this was such an awesome conversation thank you I really appreciate it and I just really appreciate you guys and your um support and your um you know being from Massachusetts yeah thank you so much and we'll absolutely stay in touch and if anything else that anything else comes up that we can do to help like we really want to help work with you yeah we feel like very strongly about this case about you guys your family about molly we would love to push this forward in any way we can awesome thank you so very much i will definitely stay in touch absolutely you are welcome anytime here you have our number now so text us anytime or call any updates we'll have you right back on okay thank you thank you so much heather take care you too bye so we hope you guys enjoyed that episode yes i think it was awesome and you can go to the mollybishfoundation.com or excuse me mollybishfoundation.com to contact your legislators and ask them to support bill s 1595 yeah and we'll put all that in the show notes so just look at where you look at the details and we'll see you in the next episode of mollybishfoundation.com for the episode and we'll have all those all the uh links in there that you can follow but do it i think it's it's good for everybody it's going to benefit us all so it is and thanks again to heather for joining us thank you so much heather you were a gem so guys we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird but that's everything you don't call about bill s 1595 and i'll see you in the next episode of mollybishfoundation.com you