Episode One: Medical Misogyny: "At Least it's just a miscarriage" with Keira Rumble

[Music] Welcome to the Miss Codulean. I'm Sam Payne, CEO and co-founder of the Pink Elephant Support Network. And I'm Stacy Dune Lewis, Councillor Psychotherapist and Broadcaster. This podcast is where we share stories of many Australians who have lost their babies to early pregnancy loss. With evidence and empathy, we unpack the shame, blame and stigma and the lack of support that many face. This is a loss that has been silenced for too long. We deserve better. We are here to normalise the conversation. And we're here to make lasting change. On today's episode of the Miss Codulean, we bring in Kira Rumble, founder of Crumbled Food and the long time support of the Pink Elephants. She's a strong advocate in this space, often sharing her experiences of early pregnancy loss, medical misogyny, fertility challenges and HG. She's had a huge journey. She shares with so much empathy and understanding that comes from her lived experiences. She's a strong voice advocating for change in this space and we're really grateful to have Kira here today to share her experience with you, our community, our listeners to the Miss Codulean. Thank you, Kira. Welcome to the Miss Codulean. Kira, I've followed your story and we've connected over the years of watching what you've gone through and you too have a beautiful ability to share your experience to hopefully make it easier for others. And we've intentionally brought you on here because there is part of your experience that really, really for me speaks to this medical Miss Codulean. And the way that women are patronised and told it's meant to be like that or minimized in their experience, it's just like a painful period, all of these things that we hear. And it's not okay and I think that your story highlights the danger in when we are met that way and not taken seriously and we're not giving agency over our own bodies. So for the experience of the listeners of the Miss Codulean, if you could take the time to take us through your pregnancy loss journey experiences. Yeah, and I think that it's really important to note that my experience was in 2019, I think. Is that how long ago it was? Anyway, we'll fact check that. I do think that we have come leaps and bounds in the medical world with loss. But we've got so far to go and I think that even just recounting my story the other day to somebody, it was a topic awareness day. And I spoke for it for the first time in so long because it's in my past but it's still so much of my journey. And it just brought back this total body sensation and I was shaking after recounting it because I had so much anger that that still actually happened to me. I guess for the topic of today, you know, I've I've had nine pregnancies and I've got two beautiful living babies and my journey was long and hard and to even get my daughter who's a newborn. It was, you know, through IVF and through loss in between my son and my daughter. But I think the losses that were the most profound that really catapulted me on my journey to actually be an advocate for loss was when I had my ectopic pregnancy because it was the first experience that I've ever gone through where I was led to believe that I was insane. And it started out just after news, I felt pregnant. I saw, you know, a really, really strong line. I was so ecstatic. And then literally the next day. I just felt like something was wrong and I had had pregnant miscarriages before so I sort of knew what to expect. And I knew that just something was off and I remember we went up to the local shops and I was walking around and I had this physical pain. So I had a left hand-sided pain. Like, like, so right. I think I need to go to the hospital and it wasn't excruciating. I just felt like something wasn't right. And the partner was like, what are you talking about? And I just, something's not right. And then I started getting shoulder tip pain. And I'm like, something is really off. And so over that day, I started getting the pain, starting getting worse and worse. And I went up to the hospital, I think the next day. And by that time I in my head had researched and seen that the symptoms that I was having was an ectopic pregnancy. And I went in and I said, I think I've got an ectopic pregnancy. And the eye rolls started straight away. And I remember just sitting there and the doctor came over and he's like the chances of being an ectopic pregnancy are really, really rare. You know, we'll just take a blood, some more tests and see your HCG. And I really had to go, no, I need a scan. I don't think that this is right. I've had I've had mischaridges before. And so begrudgingly he decided, okay, we'll give you a scan. And I was too early in my pregnancy for them to really know what was going on. Because they couldn't see a heartbeat. They weren't really sure what was going on. There was a pregnancy there. You know, it could be a ruptured cyst. It could be, you know, we don't know. Could just be growing pains. Could be implantation. We don't know. It was just all of these words that I really didn't know much about. And then he was like, okay, well, keep on tracking your bloods. And so we kept on tracking my bloods and my bloods weren't rising. And they started plateauing and then all of a sudden they started dropping. And over the course of four weeks, so four whole weeks, I had gone through excruciating shoulder tip pain, left hand-sided pain, bleeding. And it got to the point where I was so unwell that I went up four times in the space of four weeks. And over each time they're like, it's just a miscarriage. Just a miscarriage. Take some panadol, go home. And so I went home and I kept on bleeding and I still had all of the shoulder tip pain, the left hand-sided pain. And in my situation, it was quite a unique situation because I actually was indeed miscarrying. And that was it. It was very much, okay, bye-bye. You don't need to be in emergency anymore. You've just having a miscarriage. And I just felt like something was still off. And I just knew deep down that I had to keep on pushing and I had to keep on being like, I need to go up to emergency. And my partner was at the point where I was like, you know, what's going on? You know, if it's just a miscarriage because that was the language that he heard. We went up on the third time and they turned around and they said, oh, you might have an SDD. And then looked at my partner and I'm like, well, I'm in like a 70 relationships. I shouldn't have an SDD. And then, you know, that break between our relationships started to strain. And then they said to him, pulled him aside and they said, she's clearly not dealing with this miscarriage very well because she's having these physical symptoms. I would suggest going, getting her to see a psychologist. And so over this time, it was different doctors, different nurses. I then was swabbed for an infection. And at that point, there was the most beautiful woman that held my hand and said, you know, I've been through this before. And, you know, I really hope that this, you know, you get resolved. But still, I was still going, I need a scan. This isn't normal. I've got an extra big pregnancy. Please just scan me. I feel really unwell. And they're like, oh, it's an infection. It's an SDD. They just weren't listening. And they were looking at me like there was something wrong. Mentally, not physically, but mentally wrong. This girl is delusional. The pain, you know, I was like, I need endone. I need something. The pain is excruciating. I was screaming. I had a heat pack. They made me wait out in the waiting room while soaking pads and pads and pads fall. And it was just horrific. And then I said, on the third time, I said, on the fourth time, I said, I'm not leaving here until you scan me because this is absolutely ridiculous. I feel like I'm dying. And they said, we don't have enough staff to scan you. But we'll give you a referral to go get a scan. And in my head, I'm like, oh, God, you know, I'm going to have to go, you know, get a scan. And then they're going to, you know, prove me right that, you know, we'll prove themselves right, you know, that there's nothing wrong with me. And I had been conditioned to believe that there wasn't anything wrong with me for so long. And for me to think, oh, you know, miss in even if I didn't in the end have an act of pregnancy. And miscarriages horrific. and they were making me feel like and this carriage was not signed. something like it was such a normal thing. Oh, yeah, a common cult. And it was just the most embarrassing thing to go through because you felt like you were being so dramatic. And so I went to the scan, my partner stayed at home because he had been conditioned to think that, "Kira's movie." This is the, yeah. And then I remember the stenographer scanning me and she was like, "I'll be back in a minute." And I'm like, "Okay, you know, great. They're gonna find like a cyst or something, you know, minor, even though I have now gone on to have a ruptured cyst. It's not minor or a birth cyst." And then she got a doctor come back in and then they said, "Look, we've called the hospital. They're expecting you." And I'm like, "Why? What's going on?" And they said, "Oh, your stomach is filled with blood. You've got fluid in your abdomen." And they're like, "We can get an ambulance for you if you want." And I was like, "I'll be right, you know. I'll go home." And they're like, "Pack your bags because we don't think that, you know, you will be going for a short stay." Got into the car and I just started shaking and I instantly just picked up my phone and started recording. And I just, I haven't, I haven't been able to bring myself. I put it off on YouTube, I think. Yeah. And I just broke down. And I still was in denial. Like I look at that and look, I've, you know, can physically remember just feeling like there's still nothing wrong with me. This is gonna be so embarrassing. They're gonna be reading wrong scans. Maybe there wasn't even my scan. And I get up to, I go home and I say to my partner who was packing for his trip in Bali 'cause he had a box party that he was leaving to the next day. And I said, "I've got to go up to the hospital." And he's like, "Why?" You know, "What's wrong now?" And you know, there's nothing wrong with him. Like he's the most supportive person. And he was so conditioned to thinking, you know, there's nothing wrong with her. And I said, "Oh, they said that I've got blood or something in my stomach. I don't really understand." And he drops me off the front and then parks the car. And I walk in to go to be like the normal triage. And they were like, "No, no, no, are you Kira?" Yeah, we're waiting for you. And there was probably 10 doctors and nurses standing by a bed and they're like holding my hand to go into the bed. And then my partner walks in and he's just like, you can see the faith, like the look on his face, going, "Oh God." But it didn't stop there. The nurse or the doctor who ever said this to me, I will never, you know, it really impacted my healing a lot. And I remember I was lying on the bed. And I was feeling lightheaded at that point. Like I was so physically unwell. I felt like I was having contractions the day before. I couldn't breathe. I had to sit in the bath. I'd be like screaming in pain. It was just the most horrific experience to go through. And I do liken it to birth because it was very similar. Like I felt like something was getting ripped out of me. And it was then that I sat there. And one person said, "It could be a heterotopic pregnancy." And I'm like a hetero- what? And they said, "Oh, you know, you've had a missed carriage, but now you've got something elsewhere." And I'm like, "Okay, so an ectopic." And they're like, "Yes, possibly." So we'll probably have to give you surgery. And then another person came through to me a male and he said to me, "The chances of it being a heterotopic pregnancy is so rare. It's probably just a birth cyst that's causing a lot of free fluid." And then I look at my partner and he's like, "Do you want me to stay? Do you need me?" Like I've got a, I've meant to be on a plane in like 10 hours. What do you want me to do? And I was like, "No, go. This is not going to be an ectopic pregnancy. You go." You go. And I on the back of my head was like, imagine when he gets in there and it's like a tiny little cyst because that's the way that they were making it out. There's a tiny little cyst in there and he's gone and stopped going on a trip of a lifetime, with his best mate, for his bucks. And so I forced him to go. And I now look and I'm like, I wish you'd never, I wish you'd just said, "Please stay." And he kept them saying, "No, no, no, I'll stay." And I was like, "No, you go. I don't want you. I don't want you. I'll have help from my mom, from my brothers." Like, "You go. There's nothing wrong." And it really breaks my heart because he really is, you know, like my security blanket in that respect. And yeah, I had emergency surgery and yeah, I lost my tube and I had an ectopic pregnancy and you know, sitting in that room, begging for painkillers and not getting painkillers and just the whole treatment of the hospital that I went into was just horrific. And I had, you know, nearly, I can't remember how much, but over a liter of blood in my abdomen. And I could have died. - Yeah. - You've had all the classic symptoms of an ectopic, which should not be dismissed. I'm so furious and angry right now because I hear your story and everyone's hearing this story, but I know that you're not alone. I know that there are many, although we mean that we hold space and support, that are having similar, maybe different, but similar experiences and they're being minimized perpetually by emergency department staff. And they're being told it's just a miscarriage. Medical misogyny, the way women are treated within medical systems, namely the frequent misdiagnosis can be attributed to explicit gender bias. And if your story doesn't exemplify that, I don't know what all the story would. But it was absolutely not okay how you were treated in any way. - Yeah, and I'm so sorry, Kira. Regardless, as you said, of what the physicality element of that actually turned out to be, there was just so many things that were just a complete lack of care in so many other elements that weren't just the physicality. And I just wanted to really put a couple of terms to that treatment. I mean, I'm sure many of our listeners are aware and I'm sure you're both aware that hysteria was actually a medical condition up until I think it was the seventh, it wasn't long ago that we were still treating a version of intuitive or advocacy of our bodies, particularly as Sam was saying, gendered information about our specific bodies. And so there is an element of you absolutely being treated for hysteria without it actually being acknowledged, which is, it's gotta be illegal 'cause it's no longer a term. So to be somewhat subliminally treated for something that no longer is an actual medical condition and then obviously we've become more familiar with the pop culture idea of gas lighting, but there is absolute complete examples of gas lighting behavior from medical staff in your story. So I just, I wanna kind of give those real terms so people are aware that they are actual terms that are happening and whilst you say that your experience happened a few years ago, they're still happening. They, you know, I have people coming into my clinic and we are working through that from a mental perspective but also a confidence and advocacy, some worth perspective, every single day. It's probably one of the most common things I'm treating, not just because of fertility patients, but autoimmune and domestic triosis, it goes across the board. So I just really felt I needed to kind of, whilst we can't give the physical medical take, we can absolutely also identify the mental issues with your story and the titles and the conditions and the labels because I think that sometimes can give us clarity on what's happening if it's happening to you. Absolutely. And that was the biggest thing is the reason why I started documenting this was I was Googling what does an ectopic pregnancy feel like? What are the symptoms? How do I push to get noticed? How do I push to actually get scanned? And I was Googling all of this and I couldn't find a real life account, you know, it was before TikTok although I don't know when TikTok started but it was before you could find all of these like real life stories and I looked to YouTube and I just started documenting it and I'm so glad I did that because the amount of people that contact me that go through this and the reason how Jade we connected because she sat in the hospital bed and found my story and she's one of my best friends now. It's just horrific and it's given me the confidence to go and advocate, you know, during my IVF journey and during my endometriosis journey. It's really given me this ability to know I was wrong. I was, you know, done wrong. by that's the right term. I really was, you know, it was a horrible thing that happened to me and I did pursue it legally, but legal reasons I can't say what the outcome was, but I pursued it because I knew that there was something significantly wrong with my treatment. And if I didn't listen to my, you know, person saying, no, you need to go get that scan, I could have bled to death and my partner would have been on a plane and I could have died and I could have been, you know, incapacitated to call help for help at this serious issues. And it's just, you know, being conditioned 24/7 over four weeks, there's nothing wrong, there's nothing wrong, it's just a miscarriage, it's just, it really has impacted me. That conditioning also stems back to that hysteria. So that's societal. So, you know, back in the day, women that would come in and say that they feel something that couldn't be proven from a medical standpoint didn't exist. And so we're still conditioned very much to doubt ourselves as well as then you are having that care directly given to you and directly being gasslet in our system. You know, particularly if you're a person that goes through fertility treatment, there is this real, there's this real shame of this doctor Google. So there's, we've gotten this absolute influx of information, which for many women is such a power source because we may not be getting the care and the attention and the conversation we deserve. And so I just wanted to also add that whilst we aren't medical professionals, it is really important that we understand the power of collaboration when it comes to our health and that information is one element, medical professional advice is one element and your take is one element. They are to be collaborated. So I think this kind of doctor Google shame thing that happens when you start to look into your case is I understand the reason for it, but I really also wanted to add that information is power. Yeah. It doesn't have to now then be shamed upon because you go looking to look after yourself when you think that you may be met with the kinds of things you work here. I want to unpack the partner side of that because what I heard as well as he heard, it's just a miscarriage that much that he started to question your mental health, whatever he was raised as. How's that played out for him on the rest of your journey? And because you've gone through IVF afterwards pregnancy after loss and to meet the officers and he said, "Hey, she's had a huge, huge journey." But how do you think that language that was used at that point has impacted him and how he's managed to be either support or how does it change things do you think? Massively impacted him massively. I mean, I have not had an easy journey and I presume a lot of people that have been listened to this know some of our currently going through a really hard journey. You know, from pregnancy, a topic to IVF, to HG, every step of the way, I think my partner is so numb and he still is. And it's just the way that he and I truly think, you know, you know, some aspects of his childhood where, you know, he didn't really have a mother but was present so he didn't really get to have this education around periods. And you know, all of these, you know, I think that there is a lot of, you know, education and, you know, his childhood. But him sitting next to me while I am vomiting, cold over in pain, screaming, going, please give me something for the pain. And they're like, we don't understand why she's reacting this way. You know, that's essentially what they were saying. When he sees me in physical pain, he's very good at handling me and not handling me, but, you know, looking after me. But as soon as that physical pain goes, he can't quite understand how it's impacting me the way it does. And I think that he's very numb to it all. And it's just, and that was really hard for me, but I've learnt to realise, you know, that that's his, that's his way of coping with things and think to him to be like, what the hell's wrong with her for so long. And then for him to even get on the plane, even though I was like, no, you know, you need to go, you know, there's nothing wrong with me. And then he came back, you know, with, he literally stayed there for one night and then came flute straight back when he once I got out of the surgery. I was like, no, I'm not great. And he's like, I can't, I'm getting on back on the plane. But it's really impacted him. And you know, to the point where they were like, oh, you've got an SDD and then I turn around and go, who have you been, you know, sleeping with? It's all of these things that then just completely rifted our entire relationship. And then, you know, going through the tried to conceive and, you know, like we're broken humans that are just trying to survive at the moment. And it's an absolutely symptom of a patriarchal society, you know, I think a lot of people really identify patriarchy with a man. It's actually a system. So we're, you know, when he, when you've explained his personal situation as one factor, but then it's also our own education that we all have. It's us doubting ourselves. You saying get on the plane. That's probably nothing because we're doubting ourselves now, even though our, our, our, our intuition, our takes or whatever you want to call it, is telling us something else. Yeah. And, and that is, yeah, a real symptom of the system that we, yeah, unfortunately, still live in. Yeah. And I want to go back on that, that medical system again. And I think what also needs to be on and discussed here is the responsibility that medical practitioners need to understand around the language that they use. Because when they were the white coat or the scrubs, there is, we, it's, it's in our bias already. There's an, as an understanding that their superior, they've done their seven years medical degree. They know more than us that should be trusted over intuition. And while in some cases, medically, that might be right. But then there needs to be, there's this gap that needs to be bridged of them, them having an understanding of, while there's a medical and a science management side of this, there is a language. And the language of the way they tell us these things and the way that they dismissed you so much of, it stays with us and it impacts us. So I guess from, you've had that, that was awful. What should have happened? How should you have been treated in your words? What do you think should have happened? The moment you presented at hospital with the symptoms that you said? I often think about this. And at what point would I have been okay? You know, at what point should they have gone? Okay, well, now you're, you know, at this week gestation, we need to get another scan just to make sure that nothing's going on. And you know, just to make sure we hear you. And I understand, you know, they see so many people, but they've got to understand that their words and actions have significant long term effects. And I am still so triggered walking into that hospital. And I have to, I have to walk into that hospital for my HG and I actually did have a really positive experience with that, but I, I walk into a hospital and I say, I have PTSD for medical negligence. I need to be handled differently. And I have to say that each and every time. And I've once been to sold someone's like, okay, and you know, like I went in and they're like, oh, sorry, we're two, is it you need to go sit out in the medical in the waiting room? And I said, I can't sit out in the waiting room because I remember soaking and having blood dripping down my legs, I can't do that. If you look at my file, you'll see that that's, you know, going to be a really big trigger for me. But I think what needed to have happened is for them to go, we understand that you're having significant pain and we're here to help you. And I think just having that more delicate approach would be so helpful just to be heard. And also for them to turn around and say, you know, to my partner, saying, you know, miscarriage can have significant physical and mental impact. Rather than saying, oh, this is normal, you know, you need to go home and have some paladol. I think if they acknowledge that this is going to have a significant impact on somebody, that that will set that foundation up to help heal you. And it's two simple words, you know, I hear you. We're going to do the best that we can and we need to help you set your system up. So, you know, you can heal from this. It comes back to again, validation, empathy and connection or handing out a pamphlet to pink elephants. Sam and I, we talk about that all the time, you know, and you guys are just doing such incredible work. But it needs to start. The doctors need a training in this bedside manner. The hundred and then there's that connection piece of a referral because it comes back to what I said earlier, they have a position of responsibility. They're wearing those scrubs. They are the doctor. They are the medical professional. They need to understand that by then providing a referral for support after an experience of a pregnancy loss, they are validating that this is a traumatic experience or can be for many women. And you are worthy of support. And it's okay to go here and get support because what happens when we don't do that is we then start to second guess, are we going crazy? Are all these feelings afterwards normal? I'm the only one that feels this way because no one else, there isn't anything. There is no support. I can't find anything. And then to your points, Daisy, we land on Google and then we get judged for going to Google. I do want to unpack a little bit more around the mental health side of this for you. And you mentioned PTSD and lots of term that's used a lot and I'd love stasis take as a therapist on this as well because I'm not a therapist I resonate so much personally and what I see every day as well about that medical measure and returning to scenes where things have happened for me It's scums And then it just it is it triggers you and you need a different approach But yeah, how is that kind of PTSD presented in the rest of your journey for you? so I Because it was over of significant amount of time It's what they constitute as complex PTSD and I also have PTSD from childhood trauma too So I'm very much predisposed to depression and anxiety. I've been on any depressants for a very long time But I think the way that the medical negligence and The gas lighting has presented in all avenues of my life Especially around the fertility side of things You know how many years on and I'm still going through it I'm still I walk in I went into spontaneous labor with my son and I walked into the hospital and my labor stopped completely because I just went And I just couldn't breathe you know, it's just there's so many different elements I withheld I Didn't go to hospital Early enough with my pregnancy with my daughter because of my HG Because I was petrified of going there. So I actually you know Was preventing treatment to help me and it took to the point where I passed out and hit my head when I was pregnant to actually go to the hospital And it's just this constant avoidance. It's you know the flashbacks the you know It manifests in so many different ways in my life still And it really breaks my heart because What if it could have been prevented and how much money have I spent on psychologists and how much I don't have to do all of the work And if it was just a simple being like we hear you, you know what you're going through is really traumatic Or you know can we refer you to somewhere? I've been could have made a massive difference into how I now Sfunction as an adult. Yeah, yeah, we see this we call that issues like domestic violence And we know not to put the owners of responsibility onto the victim yet We've not woken up to that perspective with facility struggles yet. So you said there I have to do all of the work. You shouldn't have to do the work when you're in this you should have a whole team of different people Offering support right and I think that's really key there in a lot of this Yeah, and when we talk about trauma as the society there's only there's certain things that we deem acceptable to be under this banner and unfortunately for a lot of this it will be a pregnancy loss after 20 weeks and Anything before particularly fertility treatment seems to almost innate this lack of trauma word and that's not to say we're not going through trauma, but it isn't necessarily identified so then when that isn't acknowledged as you have So beautifully shared with us we then find later down the track the PTSD starts to check in because of the lack of acknowledgement of the original trauma so there's this kind of really Frustrating preemptive care that we can give because Trauma informed practice whether that is in hospital whether that is in a workplace. I mean goodness You know now I see yoga teacher trainings are trauma informed, you know There are things every day that are now adding this trauma informed Approach to their to their particular skill set yet in the place that we go to receive help for our health It is the one thing that seems to be really missing in these cases and the DSM which is an assessment tool for therapists and mental health workers to be able to assess will have so much lack of specific conditions for Gendard so so a lot of lack of women's particularly mental health illnesses or issues and We really do need to start looking at more research into exactly how This is now panning out over a long period of time and the costs Not just necessarily of us as individuals, but of us as a society that we're now Giving in something that potentially in some cases many cases can be treated very differently preemptively And so yeah, I think if you feel that there is trauma to your story Then you have experienced trauma because it's yours It isn't for anybody else to identify or to label other than you You do not need a medical professional to tell you what you feel They can give you a diagnosis But they can't tell you what you feel like So what right? There's just there's so much of this that still needs to be opened up understood better Change can't come unless we understand oh more this and that starts with us and our experiences and hearing them and every part of it I am I can't thank you enough again for showing so much Generously as you do in this space time and time again you've shown off the pink elephants and on your own socials And just shared just to make a difference so that other people don't have to go through it this way And we're asking everyone that comes on the miscarriage rebellion is around Insighting embassy, but it's also about invoking action like we've had enough like we really have had enough of this not changing I will hear stories like yours every day in our online community still today and it's just not good enough Where we do get some amazing medical management and some beautiful stories we have to admit that we have to say those as well But we still have too many that are not being met the way that there is earth And so with your experience of your ectopic or heterotropic I have struggled to say that for an outside word Um, oh, what would you change if you could change anything so that another woman who goes through this Doesn't have to be met in the way that you are what would you change to make it better for that person? Oh the next generation Well, I look up my experience and I pushed as much as I could And so I would like to say you know to just trust your instincts and trust your guts, but I did And it still happens. So it's not on us. It's on the medical Professionals that were that are treating us to have a level of understanding that There are actions and their words and language have a significant can have a significant long-term Impact on not just the woman, but also the partner and then that can lead to you know trauma generational trauma And it can be a significant snowball So I think that If I could ask for one change it would be you know to have that understanding and to have that recognition that You know while you are doing you know your job you also have a job to long-term to have a long-term impact you know positively And Like I said before it's not you know berating every single medical professional because you know I've had some incredible experiences and IVF was such a beautiful experience for me because I got my babies in the end And you know the way that I was treated By one of my surgeons the endo was incredible and you know there's so many incredible doctors out there that really want to do well But I think that the medical system is also understaffed Overworked You know they're not trained in this way. So I do it's not their fault Most of them it's not their fault, but I think it really starts with the education around this and you know I think the best the one thing that needs to change and for people not to be afraid of speaking up because I got contacted by so many people that say you know I didn't have the courage to stand up to them And I didn't have the understanding to know what they were saying to me was wrong and till I listen to your story until I listen to this story And I think to understand that your treatment if you're sad and buy it Is probably not the right way that you were treated And what you're going through is horrific So yeah People don't talk about it but it's happening Behind closed doors Hidden behind smiling faces There are so many people suffering in silence right now Unable to access the support that they need and deserve Simply because they don't even know that there is support available The pink elephant's community is made up of people from all over Australia Some come from the big smoke Others from the bush Some of us have heaps of friends and family around Others have none Some have lost babies at five weeks Some had ectopic pregnancies Some had multiple ultrasounds. Others only ever saw the two red lines on a positive pregnancy test. But we all have something in common. We have all lost a baby. We are all bereaved parents. There are estimated to be over 100,000 of us across Australia, every single year. Please help us connect with these people to give them the support that they deserve. No one should have to lose a baby and be left on their own to navigate their grief. Help pink elephants support more bereaved parents. Visit pinkelephants.org.au Sadly, that's not a story that I hear alone. We hear sorry, similar to Kira's many, many times. But I think it's really important that we unpack some key aspects. From that medical misogyny, that dismissive language, the partner impact and how that leads to what this pomental health outcome and PTSD and what is that. Perhaps we can start with you, Stacy and your thoughts on that. I want to offer the clinical definition of PTSD. Because I think when we often think of that, we think of those stereotype ideas, somebody that's gone to war, somebody that's lost, maybe a spouse. But when we start to actually break down what it is required, what symptoms are required for there to be an official diagnosis of PTSD, you will start to see that exactly as Kira explained, plus so many other people that are going through this, that it really is something that we are dealing with a trauma and in times a complex trauma. And that this PTSD element can really find its way into our day to day lives, even out of infertility or maybe once a baby does come along, that we still are seeing the effect. So essentially you need to be able to fit a certain criterion and need to be suffering from one of the symptoms. And some of them, for example, would be an exposure to actual threatened death. Now that could also mean that you're experiencing a traumatic event directly, but also that you're witnessing it, whether it's witnessing it from an experience that you feel disconnected from or potentially even apart in the woman going through that particular infertility or pregnancy loss. There are other options that we look at that where women can or people can avoid stimuli associated with a traumatic event. So this now when we actually read it, it's beginning after the traumatic event and evidence might look like we try to avoid distressing moments, thoughts, feelings that are closely associated with that traumatic event, and avoidance or efforts to avoid external reminder. So people place these conversations activities. Now what does this sound like? This sounds like an Instagram post. It sounds like there's another pregnancy announcement at work that we need to avoid. There's a baby shower we're trying to get out of. And we just don't look at PTSD with these pictures. We don't often see the impact that these these experiences of pregnancy loss or infertility are having on us as this clinical diagnosis. So this isn't necessarily to suggest that everybody out there experiencing these are people that are suffering from PTSD. But what we did hear from Kira's episode and from her sharing is that there are severe, severe effects from experiences of pregnancy loss that need to be, need to be seriously considered. And I think sometimes when you actually hear that direct definition, it does start to have you move away from those stereotype ideas of the word like PTSD, that stereotype kind of pop culture idea of it. And it starts to really think about it from a serious level about not only getting support, but also about acknowledging the depths of the pain and the depths of the trauma. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that flows on really nicely to the point that I wanted to bring up around how important this is to kind of join these dots and provide the education or awareness to health professionals. There's two layers to it that PTSD of the woman who has perhaps had an awful experience and has had a trauma and remembering those things is maybe she's in a subsequent pregnancy now and maybe she's going through that health system again and maybe she's having to have a synography scan in the same places where she was told she'd just lost her baby. Here is point, she cannot sit in that waiting room again. It's to her that triggers her. And then you brought up the social situations that are often not bought about in terms of a friend's baby shower or another work colleague announcing their pregnancy. We can't protect women from all of these, but what we can do is we can put some consideration around them so that hopefully we have more awareness into the potential things that can really, really hurt us when we're in the depths of going through these experiences. And that's what Pinkalifert's hopes to bring by working with clinicians and health services and ensuring that there is more education and awareness into the true impact of how we provide support or lack of support and our trauma to a woman's experience in the health system. It's so much there, right? Absolutely. And I think it also is really important to understand that when we don't start to look at these types of everyday symptoms as connection to clinical diagnosis or clinical assessments, we're moving back into that idea of hysteria. So where hysteria comes from, you may have heard of the term, we spoke about it a little bit in the episode. It goes back, you know, 1700s, 1800s, but the more recent ideas of hysteria is just crazy, the misdiagnosis that was used, the misogyny that was used in this type of assessment. And it was only in the 1980s that hysteria was removed from medical texts as a disorder into itself. So essentially anything that fell under instability, fits of rage, anxiety that actually is now clinical, you know, clinical symptoms of an official diagnosis was looked upon as, you know, a woman that is losing her mind, that is, you know, needs to be on bed rest and kind of shut away from society, shamed into this silence, essentially. And so what we have to understand is there is still such an undertone of the way that we see women show up their symptoms. So, you know, we go into that clinical definition to show everybody or to everybody to hear what actually practitioners and medical experts are going through to find a diagnosis. But often because women paint these, their symptoms in colourful, more lived experience ways, you know, the way that we tell stories, the way that we experience our symptoms, the way that we feel them so deeply, there can be this disconnect between the two. But in fact, it's as clear as day when we, when we really put it out like that. So just being really mindful that the way that you express or present your symptoms or the things that you're feeling, very much, it doesn't need to be kind of connected to this black and white idea that with a good practitioner and a good mental health expert or support, you will be able to find that that support that you really, you really truly need. And just being mindful of, you know, that, I guess that background of hysteria and where people sometimes are coming from that may not necessarily be in the modern kind of world. Yeah, I don't know that we've also brought on Maggie and Danielle on this podcast and part of what they say when they, they appear support companions with pink elephants, but part of what they talk about as well is that that those women who just had the loss and might jump on a live chart and have a conversation with them, some of their fears around how do they communicate what they're going through to health professionals and not feel like they're being dismissed, not feel like they're being questioned or to that point of hysterical hysteria. All of those things play into how we present and that shouldn't even be a consideration at that point, but it still is very much one that gets asked every day when we have live chart or peer support on. It was a really, really big episode. So aware again that those of you listening may need support, that's ultimately why pink elephants exist. There is a link in the show notes to all of the support that you can access if you are someone going through this. We're here for you. You're not alone. Thank you for your time. I'm thanks Dacey again for today. We'll see you next time. Today's episode may have brought up some feelings for you that you need some support around, but it's totally okay. Head to pinkelephants.org.au to find access to our circle of support, your safe space where you can be met with empathy and understanding throughout all of your experiences of early pregnancy loss. We're here for you. You are not alone.