Épisode n°7 : Parler Vrai en Supervision : Dire sans Blesser

[Music] -Martine Vole, hello. -Hello David. So, welcome to this seventh episode of the series "The Supervision" by Martin Vole. This seventh episode is dedicated to the following themes, "Talking about real things in Supervision", "Say without injury", or "The art of constructive and benevolent feedback". So, let's start with this theme. What inspired you, Martin? This theme inspired me enough to... I wanted to share it, so we'll see that we have a guest in this podcast. For my part, let's talk about the Supervision of Continent Space. What does that mean? That means that people will be able to express themselves, express what they need to say, what they don't dare to say. Sometimes, even now, they would be ashamed to talk about it, and because of this Continent Space, they will be able to do it. However, that's not enough. The Continent Space, when we talk about it, there is also a strong hope that the Supervision will show us something. Not just a mirror, but also to say certain words. These words, what are they going to be? Talking about feedback in Supervision, it's a bit weird, because it's not our vocation to give feedback when we are not teachers. However, it's also interesting to realize that the Supervision comes from a tradition with psychoanalysts who called the Supervision "control analysis". It seems that with this idea of control analysis, there was a surveillance, and therefore a capacity to observe a number of things. However, we will rather be in the reflexivity that in feedback. Sophie Bertrand will talk about it very well, because it's our invitation. I would also like to add one thing, it is that knowing how to say things in a Continent Space is not enough. We will also have to be supportive. And I will come back to this tension a little later. It's also the time to talk about the music that we have heard since the beginning of this episode. The music in the title is "Messy" by Lola Jung, which is made up of an album released in 2024. So it's a choice rather on purpose, because the voice of Lola Jung seems to have an intensity that puts in light the difficulty and the need to tell the truth, even when it bothers her. So why did you make this choice of music? Because this woman is fantastic. I also like watching videos that accompany songs. She is dressed in a way that we could consider to be vagant. She completely assumes herself. And it's the message that she expresses. She doesn't want to be changed, even if she is a bit borderline. Even if she could be sometimes too orange or too stupid or too fussy, she says. It's to be able to be loved too, even if we remain who we are. And suddenly, with the supervision, well, this entity fades. That is to say, it's a space where we can be loved. I rarely talked about love in these podcasts, but it goes well with the notion of support that I expressed just before. It's the holding in which he talks and explains how a child will also be able to grow up in a space where he will be supported because he has parents who are quite content and who support each other and who create love in the end. And I guess, well, I know where I feel that being able to support someone for a long time is love, even if this person is an unknown or an unknown, even if they are borderline or too orange or too stupid or too fussy. And I go back to the words of this song. So far, can we go into sincerity without crossing a red line, perhaps, according to you? So there is sincerity, there is what we capture and what we see also with the person in his capacity to capture or not, to hear or not, to be able to receive. Let's not forget that narcissistic injuries exist. And it's not because we are supervisors that we are going to allow ourselves, of course. I am quite sensitive to this notion of narcissistic injuries. And we no longer have the information on what could be perceived as unbearable by the person. So there is also the non-verbal language of the person to whom we begin to read topics. And sometimes, we can simply see that the body is closed again, that maybe we went a little too far. And this is where our next words will really be in the holding, in this support, to de-dramatize the fact that at some point, we can judge very strongly when we are a companion, regretted, certain words and be deeply accepted by his supervisor, even if there were things to judge very strongly. To see in the eyes of the supervisor that he was welcomed and that it could be put into work will probably allow for relief. And we can go back. If we feel that we went a little too far, it is then to take the time to talk to the person, maybe to ask him the words she would have liked, and it is also to be able to be in the listening to what is happening to the person, to listen to them. To listen to them, it is a conversation, a supervision. It is not a unique sense. Can we also consider that the alliance that is forged through the sessions with the coach or the therapist, the supervisor in any case, is also important to be able to say? Yes, projection and positive transfer on the supervisor can even be a repairer of a certain number of things. And when people speak the truth, it's like a note that opens and contains a pearl. So does the supervisor look at the pearl? Or does he look at the glass closed in a double turn? So it is through this look and this complicity that is installed, without concession, it is an demanding complicity in fact. Yes, I would talk about a dance, a dance to two, and I don't necessarily have more words to put on it than to live with experience. So, in the absence of a dance to two, Martin, I propose a dance to three, since we are going to put the word under the corner, who is part of the pedagogical team of IDSUPE, the Institute for the Development of Supervision, and who is talking to us about this important theme, "Speak truthfully in supervision, say without injury". We will find ourselves just after the synthesis of his interview. Sophie Bertrand, hello. So, you are coach, you are supervisor, and you are a member of the pedagogical team of IDSUPE, the Institute for the Development of Supervision. Could you share with us how you joined this team and at what time? First, I met Martin, I met him in 2017. And so, in fact, I was in these group of supervisors at the beginning. After that, I was a resource person and also a jury for the training of supervisor in 2022. And I recently launched with Valérie Baudouin, the training of supervisor 100% remotely, in which Roné David Adjaj intervened, and of course Martin. The title of this episode is "Speak truthfully in supervision, say without injury" and the subtitle brings a little more clarity. It is "Develop the art of constructive and benevolent feedback". So, I propose to you, Sophie, to start with a definition. What is feedback for you? How could you define it? It is particularly important to talk about feedback in supervision. In any case, it is my way of seeing it, that is to say that speaking truthfully in supervision and saying without injury is important. It positions in the first place. Why do we do it? What do we do as a supervisor? Why is it important to speak truthfully and why is it also important to say without injury? Well, at first, it is because it is the service of the supervisor. The supervisor, why does he come to supervision? He comes to learn and improve. He comes to improve the quality and security of his companions. Okay, I have clients. The goal is to promote growth both personally and professionally in supervision. So it's true that when we talk about feedback, if we take the exact terminology of feedback, and if I say basically "eat back", it's more about what I would say in relation to this definition. Because if we take this definition as we could have it in business, for example, from a director towards his team or a manager towards his collaborator, there is the positioning of this person towards his collaborator by giving him an opinion, by referring to codes. And so for me, the feedback in this definition, if we stay on this one, it could be, if I take for example Martin's Brussels, well, we would be on frame one in relation to everything that could be specific coach skills and then the code of deontology. Or there, in fact, we can as a supervisor, in my sense, make a feedback as such, as it can be understood in business. Because there, we have something to pose to guarantee the quality of the coach on his skills and on the way he understands the skills he refers to, be it a federation or something else. And why do I say that, it's because for me, for the rest, it's rather this intention of what I, as a supervisor, do to feed my client. And so suddenly, I see it more as the concept of resonance. I just allow myself to take Martin's book, which is on my side when I'm talking to you. When she defines resonance, it's in her book, there is a kind of glossary, so she refers to François Balthat, who says that we are actually a photographic film that has its own sensitivity and that we capture something that does not come from us. So we are like a filter that receives that with a kind of clean sound. I continue with my definition, with regard to what inspires me all this, it's that in Martin's book also, page 89, she writes, and especially that, it's in relation to the internal framework of the supervisor. The supervisor stays focused and his questions come from his center, in resonance with the story of the supervisor. This means that the supervisor works on him to differentiate his own emotions from those of his clients and remains distant for the exploration of the universe of the professional supervisor. Why do I say all this? It's because for me, in the feedback and in what we are going to bring as a supervisor within the supervision, to feed and allow our supervisor to develop, there is a framework to be set in advance. Because following the supervisor we are and following the sensitivity we have, we will not practice feedback in the same way. So my reading, or at least my way of practicing, is that the feedback in a classical terminology, I will rather use it on pure skills and on professional knowledge through medical skills or in the case of deontology. For the rest, I will rather be at the level of resonance, because who am I to say to my supervisor how it would be necessary to do it, or yes, it creates that at home, or at least that's what I think, and that's what I would have to do. So in fact, it's more how I send him something by staying in his universe, in his field, in what he is creating in his relationship with me, by talking about his client situation or by talking about his way of seeing his practice, and so he can grasp what he wants without it being imposed on him. Thank you for this precision or maybe this reformulation. I hear that you are talking more about resonance than feedback, in any case, if we use it in the classical exception that we all know in business. However, is it easy, even in the context of a resonance, to find an balance between a formulation that is supportive and sometimes the need to confront with goodwill, but still confrontations? From the moment it's at the service of our supervisor, for me it's OK, it's not easier or harder. In fact, what is important is to have your knowledge of why I do it and how I do it. So that's why I was talking about the framework. I gave a little bit of Martin's description in the book about the definition of the internal framework, but it's also the definition of the framework of the supervision that we propose. That is to say that when the supervisor comes, why does he come to see me? What did he project at home already? What did he do as an idea, if we can come back to a notion, for example, of transfer? What is it in mind and what do I represent for him? Because in fact, there, we touch on this notion of supervisor, so the one who is going to have a posture at a time when he has a power, okay, that gives him the supervision when he comes, well, in supervision. And it's in this place that it's played. What power do I decide to take? The feedback, it gives us a review, it gives us a reference. After, there are several types of feedback. And so it's true that for me, the feedback originally, this part of resonance, because it's going to be really based on this sensitivity or, in any case, detection of all that I put in the service of my supervisor to supervise him, to bring him material and lighting on his practice, on his acts, on when, if there are areas that are to be lighted, the feedback is not going to be direct. It's going to be either by hypothesis formulation or by resonance, but it's going to allow the supervisor to take notice of it. And it's a feedback, if you want, but with a different pedagogical form. Yes, didactic. How do you take care of the resistances when you perceive the resistances and, therefore, the supervisor's coach to welcome or, or possibly integrate, to understand the feedback or the resonance that you share with him? How do you take care of these possible resistances? The brakes or something like that? There are several things that come to me. The first is to be aware of, OK, there is a resistance, but what this supervisor has already been able to hear? What does it remind me of as a situation already experienced with him? Okay, and what can I allow myself? So everything is also in the relationship with the supervisor. And it's not going to be the same when there is a resistance or a individual brake, that when there is a resistance or a brake when we are in a group and that we are in a collective, and that, in addition, we have the courage to show ourselves to others. It's not the same thing that happens. So if, first of all, I put myself in the context of we are in individual supervision and there is a relationship with the supervisor, of course, the relationship will be tested over time. And as I was saying at the beginning, there is also a transfer. What is this supervisor projecting on me? So it's important to be aware also of the image that we see or of the image that the supervisor has made. Already there is that. And so if there is a resistance, if the image that he has of me and that the framework that I have put with him and that the conversations that we have already had before, that have put him into reflectivity or that have given him, in fact, an desire to make a move or to do something else, maybe that he is in the capacity to welcome. And that, therefore, I will be able to go through different paths. There is a path that we also use in coaching, which is the path of the metaphor, which allows to detach from what is happening, which also allows, compared to the resistance, almost to the supervisor to forget that he is in resistance, or maybe he is not even conscious, that is to say, okay? But going through something that will join what I would have said in classical feedback or what I would have said in words and in simple thoughts, the fact of transforming it into a metaphor by saying, "Well, it makes me think of that, or when you talk to me like that, or maybe even say, "Well, it comes back to this situation, there is this that emerges from what we had already discussed together." So it is also to take him on another record, or at least in another field, which would leave him the possibility to detach from this resistance, or at least to the supervisor, so me, to turn it around and allow him to transmit it, in any case, to appropriate it. Does that mean that you can call the imaginer? Absolutely. When we talked about feedback, what position to take to be able to bring a discourse that is both true and authentic, because in fact, it is important for the supervisor to be authentic. We are on the letter when we accompany in supervision. We have a whole practice, we have a lot of devices. And often, Martin also talks about faith in the method when we accompany a collective. But we are in our being, we are in this place. Okay, we are aware of the field that is creating itself. We could even manage to manage these gestaltist notions, these phenomenological notions. What happens in the field? What happens in interaction with my group or with my client? And that when we are in this real talk, in this notion of feedback to supervise it, for me, it made me think of the metaphor. You see what the supervisor could look like so that it speaks, so that we understand a little bit what makes the condition of the feedback and what makes it possible to adapt it depending on whether it will be positive for my supervisor or whether it will touch a resistance or whether it will take it as a negative so that in fact, there are positive ends because what are the reasons for bringing in a feedback that will devalue the supervisor? There is no interest. The interest is only positive and only to allow the supervisor to develop, to improve. It allows him to develop even more his thought. In fact, we are there to put him back in circulation if he has a blockage, to lighten the dark areas to put him back in elaboration and allow him to act differently or in any case to adjust and define his gesture. And the metaphor that came to me, it's a bit the metaphor of the Barbapapa, but you know the Barbapapa a little bit like in the old cartoons for those who have the old reference of Barbapapa. I don't know if you see the Barbapapa a little pink but we see that it is unlimited. There are limits that are set. Both the border, it's how in my feedback, both it is unlimited. So in fact, I still put a thought and I still have a form of... it's not closure that I want to say, but assurance. I put something. And that's what could perhaps go frown a little bit the supervisor or bring him in resistance because he doesn't want to hear. And that, it's in the invisible field. But at the same time, I'm Barbapapa so I have several forms and it will be able to be in softness. It's also how I bring it with softness so that it can already be received. After, there is the fact of integrating it, of listening to it completely, but that already it can start to make a little effect. I really like the reference in the cartoons of the 70s Barbapapa. I have the reference, Sophie. I have the reference. Especially since it has often been re-diffused by the rest. So I think that even younger people will have the reference a lot. So it also means that there is adaptability because it was one of the main characters of Barbapapa. It's that he could adapt, he could have a sort of corporate agility that could take different forms. Completely, and who goes, as you say, take different forms. At a moment, he will be completely discreet. We will practically not see him. Because sometimes, you have in front of you a supervisor who is able to develop his thought, to think, to think, to think, to think. There is emotion and then there is intellect. And at a given moment, there is something maybe that is blocked in the elaboration of thought or in the gesture of your supervisor that makes that as there, it's blocked. Well, maybe the gesture, he is improved or in any case, he is not in the right place or in any case, he is adjusted. And there is something to say. And so we will touch on resistance, okay? It's how with this softness and this multi-brother side, my dad, and who will adapt and who will take into account the world of supervising his way of seeing these filters, these glasses, etc. His vision of things, his referential, etc. Well, how are we going to be able to put it back into circulation so that it gets unlocked at home or in any case, that it brings a stone, in fact, in relation to his thought vis-à-vis the situation he brings or his speech or even his act that he is describing in his instinct when he is supervising, for example. I suggest you talk about your intervention and real talk centered on coaching posture. What could alert you on what a supervised client or a supervised coach shares with you when you have your coaching posture and so you are encouraged to sensitize it in this place? With the notion of real talking, in fact, it is perhaps more difficult to sensitize someone in supervision on something that must be adjusted to his posture than on how he will be able to manage the next session. That is to say that it is still something almost identical, the posture. That is to say, what you make me think when you talk about that, is how I define the posture that the coach must have because ultimately, that is also the school we have of supervision and then we are very multi-referential. There are coaches who are going to have a certain posture, even if we have definitions that are grouped and that we have federations that have skills that are grouped, and even if there have been skills that have been common even at the time when there was the CMAX that was created, etc. there are coaches' posture that are going to be different depending on the school they have had. Indeed, there is experience, of course, and maybe even supervision that they have had or the idea that they are supervision. And of what they have learned. For me, posture, it touches a lot of things. Now you are talking about singularity, it touches identity. Yes, we touch on the level of being. And it is important to say to yourself at what point am I congruent between my being, everything I am. We can see the notion, even you see the different notions that we could see with Jung if we take another referential which is that of the person, that of the ego, that of the whole month and then that of the others. Nameless, Anima, etc., my feminine part, my masculine part. Finally, all that. And it is true that all this contributes to the coach posture that I am going to be for my client with my referentials, with my training, with my practice. And that at a given moment, I may, as a coach, let myself take by my own reading of things, by my own referentials by forgetting the referential of my client or by forgetting the service of what I am here in my coach posture and therefore maybe even to get out or to be by my side. So here, for me, what is going to be important when I observe that there is something dissonant or there is something that is not right. And here, there is really this notion of resonance, I come back to that. That is to say that for me, what will start the feedback, it will be what it creates in terms of resonance in me and what it will do that maybe at a given moment, I'm going to say, oh la la, there is something that needs to be placed in relation to the coach posture. If I take concrete examples of what we can find with young coaches, you can, on the one hand, in their coach posture, you realize that they no longer adopt a coach posture, but a posture that would be the one of the saver who wants to solve the problem for his client and who is already limiting him to do the whole action plan and maybe even to make his place. Or you could have the coach who is not at all listening because he is walking in his head and instead of using it to translate it into questioning, he will immediately impose his look at his client and not let him choose. Here, there is a real problem with posture. What am I going to do when I observe that? I'm going to use different means. As I told you earlier, I'm going to refer to a situation that I had with this coach when he said, "When you bring that to me, I have the impression that you see this skill, for example, how does it manifest in what you are telling me? Or in relation to what you are doing here, if you were in relation to your reference, his reference to the coach, his skills, what would it be? I would say it's easier to illustrate in relation to young coaches. Now, if I go a little further in relation to coaches who are more senior, and then if we are in a collective, it's super interesting when you have a coach who completely comes out of his coach's posture because the others who are listening to him, following the supervision device that you have put into the work, either you are alone talking to your supervisor and you can make a little group intervene, either you use the whole group and then we are on different supervision, or there you, as a supervisor, you have delegated a part. So you have set a good framework to allow your supervisor to hear the feedback of others. What I like to say when we go back to others and when we have the perception of others on our practice, on our gestures, or even on our own coach's posture at this point, when it's the subject, because even if it's through a situation where we see that it's on the posture that it's important to stop, and there are some who will perhaps tell him some pretty hidden things, or in their own way, it's by having the chance to say "Listen, everything you want to hear now, it's not just gifts anymore, so now it's you, in fact, who is in autonomy and who is going to do the trick, you will take what you want and you will leave aside what you don't want somewhere." Well, there, the person, she will be able to take what she can take and since she can't take it, she won't take it right away, she will take it maybe later, or the words of the supervisor who is me will be able to allow her to go a little further, but already, I would say, by little touch, she will be able to take consciousness that at this point, she is no longer in her coach's posture. In any case, at least at her client, and that so suddenly, we send her back to her with the group, for example, because we observe, what we feel, what happens to us, and so there is like a protection, that's why I like this metaphor of the Barbaparapa because even with the group, in fact, there is even a screen, in fact, the supervisor is there to secure the group, allow the group to express themselves and to be authentic and to free themselves from the word, but also allow the coach, who maybe at some point is no longer in his coach's posture, to be able to integrate it as he can with his way of working with him. Are you attentive Sophie, just when there is this notion of speaking the truth, in non-verbal language, and possibly emotions that can be perceptible, that you can feel at the person you address, etc. And how exactly do you integrate this emotional part so that speaking the truth is audible, if I can say so, in any case, welcomed? So for me, if I am completely transparent about my path as a supervisor, I am a very sensitive person. I have captors, even when I have not decided, I have captors. I am extremely sensitive to what can happen, even to emotions that are not perceptible, but which are present. That is to say, for me, there is this notion of invisible. And that's why there is non-verbal and there are emotions, because emotions, you see, there can be an emotion and finally, there is nothing in the person's physique, in the non-verbal of the person. So you could say, well, here, an emotion, I'm going to understand it when, whether there is a weapon that passes, whether there is Christ in a place or something, but if there is nothing. And in fact, it's because at that moment, in any case, when I am in my supervisor's position, I am in a total unconditional welcome. And that's something that's not always easy to go to the supervisor, that is to say, I realize that this notion of unconditional welcome with a form of hypersensitivity, and while we are aware of which place it speaks of me, but which place, in fact, this little hypersensitivity, it will capture the other and in this place, it does not speak of me. It speaks of this capacity to go and capture it, but it does not speak of my story. It speaks of history and of what the city has supervised. And so, it's to be able to grasp that, to put it in words, because everything that is not in words, well, we could say, it does not exist, finally. So, how do I put that in words, with softness, because I have captured it, and that I am going to make it visible to the supervisor, or maybe even make it explicit, through maybe just a sentence or an elaboration of thought that I had like that, that maybe has nothing to do with it, but that it will have meaning to the supervisor, or because I'm going to tell him which story it brings me, or what it tells me, or what image it comes to me, or maybe even if there is a music that will come to me at that moment. So, you see, for me, it is really this unconditional reception of the other. It is that it is not that you forget everything as a supervisor, because you have a framework to maintain, you have a responsibility and you also have a power. But the power you have is that of being as close as possible to your supervisor to capture the signs to be in this sensitivity. And when you are in a collective, when you have a group, there are things happening between the supervisor. And when you have something emotionally that is going to be created because there is the presence of another who is sending you something, and that all of that is not said, and that it is barely visible, but that you have captured it as a supervisor, it is important to be able to use it, without necessarily naming people, without necessarily saying, "You see, you stopped there, but being able to use it in relation to what you will put in your questioning to supervise yourself, or even in the device that you are going to use to accompany it in relation to its practice or its problem or the situation that it brings." I was wondering about a point. Earlier, you said that in some cases you used questioning rather than talking about resonance or making a metaphor. At what point did you choose to use this questioning to perhaps help and invite the supervisor to take the path and to find the answers himself? When it comes to individual supervision, the questioning will allow you to open, in fact, at least a month, it will open up fields, maybe light up areas, because you see, it's also listening. You were talking about how you have an emotion or how you are going to be attentive to verbal names, but it is also how, when the person expresses himself, you are attentive to what she does not say. And the questioning will perhaps orient itself towards things she does not say. And I'm going to go progressively. I'm not going to go brutes de déco. We were asking a question about something that shows that I am talking about something that I want to clarify and that I do not say. After, there is also another thing, it is that when the supervisor is integrating new notions, that is to say that he is integrating something to his knowledge, something to his knowledge, which will modify his own practice, so modify in the right sense of the term, but you see that it is still fragile. And the questioning reminds him at that moment that he worked or reminds him of a prism of consciousness that he had. Okay, by putting, well, here, in relation to that moment that we had lived in this time, or in relation to what you said, I am doing the hypothesis, maybe there is that or what hypothesis you would put in, you see. So it allows, at that moment, the supervisor to make his own path and to maybe even make his own hypotheses, to be repositioned in relation to that and to integrate it even more. Do you have an example of a situation where you went through the questioning? In short, do I have an example? I rather had a supervisor the last time who told me, "It's crazy with you every time, so here individually, it's crazy every time, that's how I restore." She said to me, "I am bluffed by the hypotheses that happen, by the links that I can make between situations on which I would not have made links." So you see, that would be my questioning. He would have allowed him to make links in relation to different moments that he would have had in client situations, maybe with different clients, and that would allow him at that moment to adjust his gesture because it's precise in terms of what I have to improve or what I have to do differently, you see. What I also hear is that there is a lot of subtlety, there is a lot of adjustment, creator, in the way you practice. Yes, I do a lot with the emergency. That's why I come back with the unconditional care of the person and the fact of being in the world of the supervisor. Because with what I am going to perceive, with my hypersensitivity, the state in which my supervisor is, that is to say what he is capable of integrating or not for the session, because the person is not constant in what has happened, maybe she was hooked by a client at some point, she will not be the same when everything is going well, or maybe she is unconscious of what has happened, but that is also why it is important to act as a supervisor. And you see, you asked me an example also regarding questioning. There was a moment, in this example of this supervisor, there was something that was invited, in fact there was a kind of thing that was invited to his client, that was never invited and that was due to manage a fear that she had, and she invited him in her client's room and suddenly it disturbed her. So we could connect, for example, to an imposter syndrome, or I do not know exactly how it happened, but in short, it was invited to the client's room and it modified her companion. And so in fact, not only my questioning, she was able to take the consciousness of this one, and so it was also how you can act the next time, or in any case, what comes now, which could make that in the future, this thing there, or at least it happens in terms of consequences on you, of impact in your coach's posture, how do you do it so that it is not, but I do not like the negative side of the term, that is to say, how do you take consciousness and it does not make sense to invite yourself to the client in this place. - Do there are ethical and possibly deontological issues for a supervisor in this place of speaking the truth and saying things to the supervisor coach? - Me, it refers to the notion of authenticity, that is to say that it is important to be in all its being, okay, vis-à-vis of your supervisor, and if in the true speech you are authentic, and that in relation to what you have identified and evaluated in your relationship with your supervisor, it is something that will be beneficial to him, there for me, it's okay, where there is an ethical problem for me, it is that if there is a moment when I do it just because it is me that speaks, and that it is like that that I want to impose things, and that it is my opinion and it will not be otherwise, for me there, I have an ethical problem in the fact of speaking the truth, because that means that as a supervisor, I have not been questioned in a particular place, and I have not been questioned if really that is what is important for my supervisor to hear, and if that is what is important for him to develop, to secure his practice and secure his client. - What I could hear is that in fact, in Boussole, in this precise place, it is your true intention in the face of the situation and of the supervisor coach. - That's it, and that it would not be ethical if I forget that it is at its service that I do it, for me there, I would rather give my point of view or impose something on him, and I would no longer be in my position, and therefore I would no longer be in this place, it would not be ethical for me. And in addition, it also comes to question who I am for me to decide for my supervisor, who must be like that or who ... You see, for me, it goes deeper than that. There is a necessary reflexive dialogue, so it is more important that he comes to something that allows him to make him progress and modify a behavior, rather than me not being direct, it comes from me, but he did not have the time to integrate him, to develop him, to feed him, and therefore to put himself back into elaboration for him, and so suddenly, I will use my power and make him do something wrong, even if it is not intentional, but at this point, it will not go. And you see, it makes me think, I have a very concrete example of life, it makes me think, when I was looking for supervision groups, and I just supervised by some supervisors, in group, in collective. First of all, what you have to know is that when I came to look for a group, I knew that I was not going to find the same thing as when I was going to be an individual, when you are in a group, you look for a group, you show yourself, you put a visible part of yourself, and you send an image, and maybe you will not send the image you want, and when you have a supervisor who balances something, and who tells you, for example, if I am completely transparent, I have a supervisor, one day, who balanced me, you are that, and he glued it to my face, to my body, he told me, you are that. So I would not say that so that the person does not identify himself, of course. But me, as a supervisor, do you think that's what made me grow? Do you think that's what helped me for my clients? Do you think that's what helped me for my identity as a coach? Well, it affected me, it hurt me, it hurt me to hear a thing like that. And then it was not, you know, it was not necessarily negative, the thing about that, but it was imposed, it was forced, I could not get out of it, I could not get out of it. But for me, the position of the supervisor who spoke to me like that, he was not ethical. He spoke the truth because he spoke of what was true for him, or what he thought he should say, in relation to his case, but it was not at all suitable for what I needed. There, we touch on something, in that place. We use his power, and there we are not here. We use his power as a supervisor, the positive transfer that the supervisor can do to himself, and we can do a lot of harm. And so I had a lot of harm there. And then it made me think of another situation where you have supervisors in a group, and it's as if you already knew how it works. And well, if it's groups that are violent in the word or aggressive because it's their mode, but if you don't know everything, I'll do the link again. I'm hyper sensitive. So that, my supervisors, when they come, they know it. They know it's my party, they know that I take care of it. Precisely of the unconditional bond, I will take care of the bond, I will take care of the relationship we have, and it's a security framework, it's in security with me. If I have to confront him, he knows that I don't do it for nothing. But in fact, me, I arrived in a group, we didn't tell me anything, we didn't say anything, and we balanced my plan in the figure. Well, anyway, talk. I lived like that anyway. When you don't feel the security of the group, that you don't have the security of your psychic apparatus, etc., finally, the psychological security of the group, for me, there, you touch the ethics. So yes, you can talk true, but there, you touch the ethics because in fact, I lived like someone who was a monster, in fact. And that hurt me a lot. And then, in fact, at what point, me as a supervisor, I realized it, at what point I accepted that I could have my own thought, and take off from the thought that imposed me, and the look that imposed the group on me, while it wasn't me. And that, it wasn't at all helpful in my coaching practice with my clients. Not at all. On the other hand, where it was helpful to do good, is that I take more care of the link, I take more care of the field of supervision. I impose it in my case. I have my way of doing it, I have my way of doing it. Instead, from the moment when there is something to say true, it is important to take awareness of how it is received, what framework we have set up, and how we can read it. So there, for me, where it will touch, the ethic is there where we can't be ethical, it is from the moment when we stick something to the supervisor that we are not aware of the damage we are doing, where we may have the impression that we could say to ourselves, "Look, this dog, honestly, I don't even understand what he's doing, because I have the impression that in the end, he's not going to be this competent thing." Rather than putting him in the figure or showing him everything that he's not going to, maybe it would be interesting to already show how he can progress, how to bring him to grow up, how to take awareness of his incompetence. But staying ethical and not giving up. So I wanted to tell you another story, it's that it made me think of something else. It's a group that I supervise. And to tell you how much, there are sometimes moments when I don't even need to name or say anything, in my non-verbal, my feedback is already done. And in fact, there are groups that, for example, there was a supervisor who exposed something, and they said "Wow, look at Sophie, it's going to challenge you, you're going to be confronted." Well, that's it, the group uses him, it puts him in position, the person is ready, and if he does it with kindness, it's even done with humor. Well, there, we stay ethical. What I also hear is that you are particularly attentive to avoid any form of violence, explicit or implicit. To be aware of what we project and to be aware of the image that we can sometimes give, it's important. Can silence be useful in supervision? Can silence be propitious? Yes, silence can be propitious because at the moment, when a person is talking, a supervisor, for example, and you want to tell him something, but he's actually working on it himself, he might be able to do his own feedback or at least say what you want to tell him. So silence is propitious, that's it. And then, you were talking to me earlier, can you capture something that can have an emotion at your client or something that has a resistance? Well, silence, it allows that too. It allows you to welcome resistance, it allows you to welcome emotion. It creates a form of both content for your client so that he continues to elaborate or in any case, it takes up a form of circularity in what he's going to explain, etc. It's extremely important, in any case, for me, to be vigilant of what is going on, what is blocking, how is it going to be circulated, and at the moment, silence needs it. And I would even say that at the moment, just a movement, just a rupture like that, that I could propose to the group, will be necessary to take on a task that is going to be done to supervise it or supervise it at that moment. Can you distinguish a silence that can allow for a progressive introspection of the coach's client from an eventual "evident silence"? Yes. And when you say that, a "evident silence", you see it as the supervisor or the group that would be in an "evident silence" or you see it rather as the supervisor who stops in his story or in what he is telling and what he is doing. So I thought rather on the side of the supervisor rather on subjects that can be quite extended, there may also be avoidance, does it seem like a group? Yes, completely. Well, at that moment, it's supposed to be. That is to say that you can very well convey what this silence has been important or what it says, what it is actually saying. It can be that. And then, if it is a group silence, for example, which would be maybe uncomfortable, we could imagine that we are in a device where everyone will be able to express themselves or do, for example, a feedback to the supervisor and then finally there is a silence because there is an avoidance that is done. It is to help the members to express themselves maybe differently. And this is where you can use the metaphor or you can use other things that are happening or maybe even to use a feeling and to pose a feeling, it allows rather than being in the avoidance to pose what happens here now and then do something about it. I also imagine that this is the experience that allows you to have this maturity of listening or observation to identify and distinguish what is a situation or another. If you are talking about maturity, there is a form of, at the same time, I was in reflexivity on my own practice of supervisor. So I developed myself on it. I was able to take awareness of my shadow or what it has just awakened at that moment or what is happening to me because at that moment I avoided or I did not go or that I did not speak the truth. I was authentic but I did not speak the truth. And then how can I use it? Because when you are a young supervisor you already have so many things to be aware of that it is true that there will be our shadows that will disturb us at some point or our emotions. We will take care of it later and then it makes that the supervision accompaniment may be different or there is a chance that we will not go. What is important is to be aware of this place. So in this place we will not be relevant or we will not bring our value. So I think that what happens over time by maturing and becoming more senior, more experienced, it makes me think of the notion of learning that in the comfort zone, in the effort zone with the magic zone where we do not go into the effort because where there it disrupts us etc. But then it also becomes something that we know better and that we can prefer more. So this is a knowledge of ourselves and this is a knowledge of its being. As a supervisor we never finished developing. So from the moment we are aware of this place we avoided the silence because it was not a proper silence for our supervisor but it was a proper silence for us and it is important to be able to use it because it can also be a reflection. We can also say what am I living with now compared to the situation that my supervisor leads or even that the group leads or whatever it can also be a collective. And then I will be in the shelter finally. It will be a silence as you say that it will not be in the real talk but that it will be in the shelter that it will be in the failure of the supervisor. And then it will lead me to supervise. So it is also interesting to use it because maybe I am training myself to be taken by a parallel process or another. So it is also to be aware of that. Yes, by listening to you I am saying that the supervisor has a need to work on him or on her constantly and constantly. And you would say the same thing for the coach, right? Yes, but the responsibility of the supervisor is maybe a bit wrong at the place where he accompanies a coach for a collective or individual client. So there is a repercussion that is significant. You make me think about the fact that yes, it is important to be aware that we have a power and a responsibility. It made me think you know about this definition of supervisors especially in the United States or at a given moment it was very delicate because we could have processes. It shows how important it is to secure your client. I come back to the notion of ethics where it is important not to use your power just to please yourself and to break or supervise the coach because it just makes me happy to say that I have the power of the supervisor and I am a supervisor and therefore I am an authority, etc. I do not see the role of the supervisor but I have experienced it so I know that it exists. I know that it still exists. The supervisor has to have his own autonomy his own ability to distance himself from that and to say to himself "Do I leave this power to my supervisor or not?" Yes and take his responsibility and change the supervisor who is in charge. That's it, exactly. Because the supervisor has the right to make a feedback to his supervisor. Supervisors do not take it because that's why it's super important it's like in the company. We teach them feedback "Ok, but what is the role that we make and what services do we do?" From the moment these two things are not clear it can cause damage and that's where the supervisor will be more ethical. Thank you very much in any case Sophie for doing this "Tour d'horizon" this 180° on "Speak the truth" and this feedback and resonance notion What I hold is this notion of "you alone" of intention and that if it is at the service of the supervisor and the situation it will not manifest itself of violence and it won't be agitated. So what's interesting is to ask yourself "Am I lying when I say this or am I really in congruence with myself and with what I can bring to my supervisor?" Because there are some who can say that "Well, I paid attention to what he needed but in fact he is not at the place where the supervisor needed him. For me it's a real work on the sensitivity of the supervisor about what he is capable of stepping on and if I finish on this metaphor I'll take it back from "La Barbe à papa" from this multi-form from this agile side I am always me because I have my delimitation and I also put my limits and I put my camera and I stay ethical etc and it makes me think that when I tell you this another example there was a moment where I had to expose a device to start a group for a supervisor who was exposing his situation and the supervisor said "Well, you all know what you hear etc, like this, you're going to give me feedback about it, so I advise you to do this and that, and in fact he came to take the whole case about how it was going to happen and well, I gave him a feedback or I told him that it was not to him to tell others what they had to do we were not going to work for him, we were not going to do anything you see, this is also true it is also to rest your body and to give a feedback to the person in relation to the way you act in a case that you are asked and that she is finally taking your body so there is also the feedback on how your supervisor respects your whole supervisor's body this example is interesting to show that indeed it is necessary to be attentive to what is happening energetically and verbally in the case that it is necessary but in the drawing, the characters could transform their body to have a good science tool at the moment thank you for reconnecting with this series from the 1960s it is very logical thank you very much Sophie so Martin, we are at present at 2 and what do you feel when you listen to Sophie's interview we are talking about it and the investment that she puts to talk about this I know her enough to know that she has put her tricks and her intelligence so what I feel I am happy to have talked about it to listen to it, to see how it actually takes the elements of my book but to re-appropriate it and to do something more personal and it is a circularity of life and practice that is installed I think it is really the essential on this theme one thing too that I love I love how she pronounces it as a good frame because it is also enlarged to what can happen beyond an individual supervision understood in a group to have the ability to create a group that itself will be able to support since I was talking about holdings earlier it is this support that holdings gives us which will make that the word will also be released and it will be able to transform there again we come back to this framework which is that the supervisor will be able to stay alone with the group whatever it comes and stay in this posture of support Martin, now I propose you to talk about one of your creations entitled "The flower or autumnal leaf" so maybe I invite you to describe it to us, to present it for the audience, the audience a little touch very simple, very sober a few colors thrown on paper crafts and the color can be in the time of the craft paper there is a little white, a little yellow a lot of brown, it is extremely very light and we continue to see the paper that is under the paint so it is a work a little delicate in fact made in very little time more intuitive than thought I think that when we talk about without injury there is something of this order, quite delicate it is superimposed on something more powerful that exists below where we speak true what is true it is subjective by the truth in any case something that we would have caught as a form that could be drawn and that could be this leaf or a flower or something else looking at this creation I said to myself that the lightness of the trait could remind the need to formulate a feedback or at least say things with delicacy subtlety, does it speak to you to be subjective and sensitive? Yes, maybe I will enlarge my feedback at this moment we say in this podcast Sophie speaks about nourishing a return and what is this return? This return is the capacity of the supervisor to clarify what he feels to say it with maybe lightness or power in any case by seeing how he impregnates the craft paper below and yet a little intuitive it is not impulsive either he takes into account a time of reflection that would help to formulate a word in the most positive way and create less susceptibility or injuries at the other so we move on from something that is not a reaction it is more an elaboration The other element is that the craft paper is a fairly sensitive support fairly fragile to which you have to pay attention to avoid freezing it, damaging it sensitive to the surface which welcomes the trait which welcomes the word Yes, I have drawn a sheet that I see as an autumn sheet placed on a craft paper and the autumn sheet symbolizes also a fragile sheet because it can be put on top it cracks, it could end up morseling on this craft paper the idea is that it remains on this craft paper which is absorbed without too much of the paint, it is not a paper that drinks a lot we take a surface and then we let it act in any case, it is as if the autumn sheet was placed delicately on this craft paper it is as if each of the protagonists knew that your word could be welcomed, held and if there is a group present that the group will also be hurt Ok, I suggest you now to talk about a music that you have chosen to conclude this episode and open on other perspectives and this music is called "No California" by the Limousine group and it is from the album "L'été suivant" released in 2019 so why this choice, Martin? I wanted to finish on another a more sweet, more warm, more indolent note there is an image that goes with this music it is a camping car people gather around a fire it invites to holidays, to the sun so I talked about the autumn sheet but there it is something that is more warm maybe in the end something that is more warm what happens, what we say it is that the intention is to allow the person to also enjoy this time supervision to be resourced welcome, what happens with your sister it is a very flat piece very melodic, which evokes space and maybe also a certain nostalgia in any case, this is what made me live the theme of the episode was to talk about the truth in supervision, but in the end in what measure the silence can it be sometimes more eloquent than words? Silence after a work will allow the person to let the reactions that the words of the supervisor have more to see on her and let this time be welcomed there is no precipitation and sometimes we do supervision proposals and people catch them or not and sometimes they catch them right away and then we can talk about it and sometimes there is in slow motion, a few days later supervision is over and then there are things reminiscences that can happen and then there is a conscious work that is done and then the conscious takes can sometimes happen when the session is over so it is to integrate this time to recycle the effects recycle emotions it allows to access a certain understanding a certain acceptance of the evening and in the professional part it is very important since the experiences in professional situations can be very engaging very impactful they can be heard too so let the professional time come into supervision to absorb, to integrate what they have heard the more robust ranks when they are with their clients so we have we need time of contemplation, of dream in a society where the invention is still much stronger and more and more the rapidity of the developments of our current context it is a bit paradoxical to take your time in a world that goes so fast and it is therefore possible to contact with yourself and stay connected to others there is more than yourself I propose to you Martin to stay here for this episode on these words that open to other fields, to other possibilities thank you very much Martin with pleasure soon David [Music]