Episode 99- Zinnie Harris

The persistent and nasty podcast is a series of interviews and informal discussions with inspiring women and other marginalized voices in theatre, film and beyond. From actors to activists, we aim to amplify these voices and invite the world to stay nasty. The persistent and nasty podcast has teamed up with We Edition to offer our listeners 25% off monthly subscription. Head over to We Edition and type in nasty all capital letters 25 at checkout. I have said it before, I will say it again. We edition really are the future of casting. And also you can make money while being a member on the site. You can be a scene partner for people and you can help with accents, you can just generally help each other out. And it's really important thing for us to do especially during these times and just a lovely way to have community. Our other offer for our listeners is still with backstage. Backstage are offering our actors 12 months free subscription. You heard that right, 12 months free. If you follow the link in the description box for casting directors, you can post free castings when you type in persistent and nasty at checkout. Hello you gorgeous lot and welcome to another episode of the persistent and nasty podcast. Elaine here, how are you all doing? I really hope that you are all starting to enjoy a little bit more familiarity let's go for it. I hope that you've had the opportunity to meet a friend or family in a beer garden or go out to a restaurant or just go to the cafe and sit inside or see a little bit more of your friends in your back gardens. I hope that you are all looking after yourself still though. Keep washing your hands, waiting your masks and being kind to yourself and each other. Another tricky week this week as I'm sure most of you will know in our industry and for all of you we just want to let you know as always we stand with all survivors and we have put in a lot of links in the description of this episode and for those of you who may have been affected and need some guidance. And remember we are always here for you please feel free to reach out to us. Today's episode is with the incredible Scottish playwright Zinny Harris. Zinny, myself and Misha have a really great unveiled chat. We discuss Zinny's first short film, A Glimpse. We also talk about what inspired this film and just a small trigger warning for people that we do discuss pregnancy loss and infertility as mentioned so it's just to let everyone know and obviously with this being Zinny's story it's very much from a heteronormative point but that we would just like to reiterate that always we know that this affects everyone no matter where you sit on the gender spectrum. So again please if this is something that could be upsetting for you we start discussing this round about the kind of 15 minute mark so if you feel the need to just skip on ahead. We also discuss Zinny's other work we discuss the old trope of the tortured artist and how that really needs to go. As always you can follow us on all social media Twitter @persistentnasty, Instagram @persistentanasty, Facebook, persistent and nasty. Send us a wee email to [email protected] and for those of you wishing to support us always so much thanks to those of you who already have. The link to our PayPal is in the description box as you know we are unfunded and the work we've been doing recently is "Oft" is really yeah I think all I can say is "Oft" so thank you it really does make a difference and it helps keep us going. So you are all wonderful. For today's episode I suggest I don't know why because I don't drink quite wine but I would suggest the wee glass of white wine or maybe a spritzer maybe a beer, fruit beer oh you could have a really lovely um oh we pint of orange and lemonade or orange and soda if you're trying to watch your sugar intake as always we know water is the best for us on the inside as well as on the outside and as always just a little cup of tea you'll do sit back relax and enjoy. One of the wee guys was like had a basket of 10 p items and so ended up buying this 10 p soup and a 10 p like thing a lettuce and it's like a honey roasted parsnip in Karen so it's delicious but yeah in my rush to eat my soup to get this podcast I burned my entire esophagus and he had something cold drink. Yeah I felt like one of those cartoons you know when they like swallow something they're like like fire comes out their mouth and then they just go out of water down it was exactly what I did and that's how we're doing this Tuesdays and it is so lovely to have you on the podcast welcome to the persistent and nasty podcast. I feel like everybody in Scotland probably knows who you are but I feel like it would be just just a little bit of fun for you to give us a pot of history of what you've been doing and how you got to where you are just a little. Blimey okay well um I've been the playwright primarily for 20 years and started my first play that I'm known for is called "Further the Furthest Thing" and it was at the Travis in 2000 and then I have worked for a number of years right in commissions for plays started writing for TV as well so I wrote for Spooks for a number of years and I made two 90 minutes sort of half drama half factual things for Channel 4 and then I started directing for theatre so I then was writing and directing and directing other people's work and and then just very recently wrote and directed a short film which happily we're here to talk about I expect but yeah so I've been a bit of jack of all trades mainly writing I mean really I'm interested in stories working with actors finding the right form for the right story yeah. How did you find it transitioning from like because obviously if you've been writing for like film TV before like how did you find it transitioning as a director like coming from theatre into film TV. Well I mean I think really the first maybe the first step was transitioning as a writer so kind of you know when you're when you're working as a writer you know on the stage you're kind of almost having to write from the position of the back of the stalls and see all your kind of orchestration of your story that there's a kind of public element that you want the main events to happen in space between people whereas when you start writing for screen you want the main events to happen in the kind of internal world so you're kind of right here with the camera so I think the process actually started as a writer that kind of almost like where I was putting the minds eye and then I mean I think there's so many things about that are different working as a director and obviously the you know what the product is at the end is very different but actually even the process and that you know in in in a theatre project I'm used to kind of making a lot of the decisions in the rehearsal room over a long period of time with the actors you know I sort of go into the rehearsal room with really a very very rough kind of idea of shape although of course you will have worked with the designer so some decisions are already made and what I found really interesting and different about film was how much was decided so pre production that you know a lot of the kind of hard lifting of the thinking had had already been done and really the the filming was kind of like tech and performance all rolled into one where we really just had to sort of capitalize it and of course the actors are joining they their process got to be really fast and you know and also every single decision in the shoot you've got you're making with kind of 20 people behind you kind of this sort of quite public element of it to the director actually whereas in a rehearsal room you've kind of you've got a bit more time to sort of chew it over or if you're in the tech you can kind of stand in the dark and ponder and you might have a couple of previews even to kind of keep evolving whereas you've got to be on it but I did find talk about kind of the adrenaline buzz and the exhilaration of kind of setting up a shot and and get Mwyn yng Nghymru, mwyn hynny am ffordd o'r llyfyr. Mwyn yw'n llyfyr yng Nghymru, mae'n sefydig â'r llyfyr. Mwyn byn yw'r llyfyr. Mwyn byn a'r llyfyr, mae'n sefydig â'r llyfyr. Maen yn yna, mae'r llyfyr. Mwyn byn a'r llyfyr. Maen yn yna gwybod yna, mae'r llyfyr. A mae'r llyfyr. Mae'r llyfyr. A'r llyfyr. Mwyn yna, mae'r llyfyr. felly, wrth wyg majori llyfaith. Milkwch deith? Forg recycled onto fel varithondu i unwrsmイnno. ép? Berithio a'r eraith githwy'n y p הם gwellewd hangyrair. Rhe tomato! Pстранarnio. Caw yng gluten ffran Unig Instit. Daaddianu fy bydd cael sut popanc, gadaeth таindauylld phethau. Denise Newsboy equatoriowaynau'r daetb'n gwaeth, aio lebl a'r statig o centaf o'r ân draws widerig unig. i'n gweithio i'n gweithio am gyda i'r gweithio. Sfyd i ddyeolom yn yw'r gweithio am gyda i'r gweithio am gyda i'r gweithio. A wrth mae'n gweithio i'r gweithio i'r gweithio am gyda i'r gweithio. Mae'r gweithio i'r gweithio i'r gweithio am gyda i'r gweithio. A'r gweithio i'r gweithio am gyda i'r gweithio. Mae'n gweithio eu no i'r gweithio. Mae'n gweithio i'r gweithio i'r gweithio. Mae'n gweithio i'r gweithio. Mae'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio. - Is this based round a mother? - Yeah, mother. - Yeah, yeah, mother with two small kids with a partner and they kind of living their life and she takes a bag up to the attic and when she's in the attic she finds a hatch and she's curious about it 'cause actually there's something a bit odd about the attic and there's something a bit odd about the hatch and she looks through it and she sees herself in a time when she was longing for children wasn't able to have them and she comes back to her life and she's so fulfilled as a mum and the kids are all over her whatever and she kind of knows the misery she'd been in and she just wishes she could be that, as I was saying a minute ago, that kind of future ghost waving the banner and there's kind of no way to communicate. So this is quite, comes from sort of quite a personal place in a way I had a sort of experience when I was in my late 20s I was doing a project at the RSC and I was staying in a bed and breakfast they put me up in a bed and breakfast and it happened to be 13 weeks pregnant and I was happy about pregnancy from my first pregnancy everything was fine and during the week that I was there I unfortunately had a miscarriage and all started a miscarriage and had to go back to the sort of rang, saw the jeets or local GP, had to go back to the bed and breakfast room and I rang my husband and said, I've started bleeding, can you come down a get me from Edinburgh so he got in the car and drove but I had this really sort of sad day waiting for him it was kind of eight hour drive till he arrived and actually we then stayed that night and I was kind of absolutely miserable I had had no expectation that anything was wrong with the pregnancy and I was just very, very on my own. And then he picked me up and we came back and kind of like went on and actually as it turned out I had a number of miscarriages I went on to have four miscarriages so roll forward probably about three, Mona must have been, I don't know four or five, you know, I can't remember, I can't think what would that be, maybe four years, three or four years when I'd by then I'd had my eldest Maliki and he was about two and I had another baby Jasper and we were back at the RSC, I was working on the play that I'd started writing all that time ago and I was directing the show for the RSC so I mean it was God a hell of a thing I had a nine week old baby first day rehearsals and a toddler but anyway there we go but they put us up in the house opposite the B and B and I just remember standing at the window almost every morning with this kind of toddler on my hip and this new baby and just wishing I could wave over the street to the woman that was so miserable lying on that bed kind of feeling like the world had ended just to say, you know, we're here and look what you get and I wrote a letter about, you know, how the guardian used to do that thing about a letter to someone and I wrote a letter to myself sort of five years ago and I just kept it as a letter and then the friend of mine said, you know, it would make such a good short film had you thought about writing as a short film and then I happened to meet John McKay, producer at a theatre event and he said, you know, let's have a cup of coffee and I said, well, I've sort of got this idea and you know, then SFTN had the scheme so it then sort of seemed quite easy because I think I'd sat with the idea for quite a long time and I think my friend who said it was a good idea was really right because it seems to me that when short films work their best, they're almost like exploring a single moment or a single idea, not being too ambitious but almost like a poem or something giving you kind of literally a glimpse of a moment in your life. So yeah, so that's how it came about. - It gives me goosebumps. I don't think I'd heard the foot like I kind of knew working on it that it came from personal experience but hearing you talk about it's any that's really moving. So thank you for sharing that. I know that's quite intense for a podcast. - I think the thing is that so many people will be listening to this and will have been affected. Myself included. - Yes, better situation. Had a miscarriage and then started a job like a week and a half later. - Yeah. - So you know, it's and it's something that our industry does really well. It's shown that and the process of it all but not the kind of internal dialogue that goes on as a female. - Yeah, I mean, I think there's so many things around miscarriage because it's so intensely private. You know, particularly in early miscarriage, you're not visible. A lot of people don't know you were pregnant anyway. And also I think I don't know about your experience but one of the other things I wanted to sort of touch on in the film is that actually men and women have a different experience of this. And you kind of, you know, you go into the pregnancy obviously having a baby is very much about kind of the couple in a way and you know, what they go on to and talking very sort of heterosexual terms but this is sort of my experience. And but what happens for the woman as soon as she gets pregnant is quite different to what happens to the man. And I think you start the process of being a mum, the minute you see the positive pregnancy test. Whereas certainly in my experience, I mean, he's now my ex-husband, that she is at happens but he, when we, when we sort of unpicked it right at the end of it all when we kind of finally kind of, we ended up with a baby and we were able to kind of sit and pick through the shit that was the time of the miscarriages. His, he sort of said that his experience was kind of like, it was a good thing that was coming but he hadn't really started being a parent yet. So we had this completely different, you know, my grief was really profound because I felt that, that, you know, I'd lost a child, whereas he'd lost, he'd lost the hope of something that was going to be great in the future. And, and I think it was the first time in our married lives that we were kind of on opposite sides of a river going, we're just not feeling this the same way. And there was a kind of sense of kind of, that he just wanted to cheer me up and wanted me to kind of get on and move on and even really wasn't that bothered whether we continued to have children, whereas I kind of felt really kind of, you know, that we'd got on the train with this having a baby thing and I wasn't going to get off the train until, until we'd arrived somewhere. And, you know, and maybe that was a bit sort of obsession of me, but I think that kind of, you know, that internal love affair with the child or a child had, had started. So yeah. The train thing is a great analogy. I mean, and it really is. Yeah. And I'm sure there are many people who can relate to that. I mean, I know that I certainly can. It's been a long time for us trying for baby 10 years. Yeah. Still no baby. Yeah. Well, yeah. Absolutely. And that's, but, you know, you talk about the hope and I think there's something, and I certainly know, and I know other women who have gone through infertility and or had problems conceive in and the hope is the thing that always is there. And that idea that somebody comes to you is a really beautiful way of looking at it. Like, even if it's not yourself or there's just that thing of somebody come, and even if it's not the picture that you think you're going to get at the end of it, but just tell you that you're going to make it. Yes. You're right. That's right. Absolutely. Something so important, and it's so touching, and it's so wonderful that this film is going to be at the mental health, infestible, because it's part of-- it's got such a knock on effect and so many other parts of your life. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that the way-- I mean, I was lucky, and I appreciate that, that I did go on, and it kind of did sold in the way that I wanted it to. But as you say, there are so many parts of your life, where actually the solution is the unexpected thing. And you don't know what the consolation for the desolation is. But I think the way that we can look at it is I do know there were other periods in my life that were bleak. And I do know that they solved themselves, again, not in a-- if you could go and visit yourself as a 15-year-old, what would you say? You kind of put your arm around yourself and kind of go, do you know this shit? It just doesn't feel like this forever. I promise you. And there is something about the kind of sense that there is the older, more older sisterly kind of version of you that goes, yeah, this all feels like it's really big and unsavivable now. But I promise you, with the perspective of a couple of years, it just turns into a different thing or you get through it somehow. You're all right. I think that's a beautiful way. I'm just thinking about it. Your film should be like the big sister that you need, like that moment, that kind of sisterhood. And I mean that, not just like if you identify as female, just mean that sense of like a community, is like your support and is there for you. And I think that's-- yeah. It's really exciting that it's being shown and it's being discussed because it will make people have conversations. And you know, somebody might see the film who's had a miscarriage or multiple miscarriages and maybe hasn't spoken to that many people about it. And they feel that they can. And there is something like you say this kind of secrecy about it. And we talked with Kirsten Annis about this as well, because she's had a IVA. for miscaligies and we talked about that in the podcast with Har. And we just kind of said this thing that a society's kind of almost made women feel the shame about it. And we need to demystify that. So things like a glimpse, yeah, are a step in the right direction. Yeah. And I think also the way that we see kind of pregnancy and loss in or a lot of the films or the sort of media is a kind of often a slightly male view or it's a bit romanticised or it's a bit, you know, and this kind of yucky bits that we don't see. And it's just kind of like, so it's turned into a slightly mystified thing that we pushed to one side as that's slightly women'sy and therefore not relevant or what, you know, and I suppose I wanted to bust that a bit with the film as well and kind of go, actually, this is really central to a lot of people's experience and it's time that we looked at it. We talked about it. I mean, certainly that was my experience at the time is, you know, a lot of people really didn't want to go that with me. And, you know, I think with any, like, with any sort of period of kind of that's traumatic in your life, it divides people, doesn't it? You know, there's the people that are on the journey with you and then there's the sort of people that that sort of back away. Yeah. I think what I really liked about it is, and it's going back a bit, but it is the like, the balance portrayal of that relationship. So it's Kirsty Stewart and Jordan Young starring in it together as this couple. And I just feel like there, like, it could have been so easy to have made Jordan the bad guy. Yeah. Made his character seem like uncaring and like just like, I just feel like there are ways, like I've seen this kind of thing before where like, the man can be demonized. Yeah. And what I loved about a glimpse was you could totally see that both of them were in, you could totally see that they were each on a different side of the river. Yeah. And I think that's really clear in it. And I think that's such a lovely thing as well for even men to be able to watch. Yeah. And something that they may otherwise have absolutely no clue about and not be able to understand, personally, that emotional journey. Yeah. But to be able to see Jordan's character, yeah. Feeling with it in such a sensitive way, like, although confused and although angry and although upset, like, in different ways throughout. Yeah. You can still see that they're both really just trying to muddle through. Yes. Yes. I think that's right. And there's a bit in the sort of present story where he says, you've gone somewhere, okay? And I don't know how to reach you. And almost that line kind of tells you that actually normally they're connected. You know, that he's noticing that she's she's gone. But again, that's my, that's your favorite line. There you go. It's like, I feel bad that my favorite line is the guy in it. But I just love the emotional intimacy of that. I think that truth of like their connection is so clear in that line that, oh, yeah. Yeah. But I think also that is, you know, as you say, something that I wanted to dramatize is I think men feel spare. Men don't know how to support. It is very much, you know, because it's so physical having either a pregnancy or a pregnancy loss, you know, they are one step removed. They can see partner in pain or grief or whatever, but it's hard for them to access and and articulate or ask what that, you know, and and sometimes men find it not all men, but a lot of men find it difficult to kind of go there emotionally and and that's a strain too. So, you know, I think it's why I'm interested in kind of using the sort of kind of domestic as a way to sort of explore how we communicate what what our kind of ability to be alongside each other is. And yeah, it's quite interesting kind of focus on to kind of explore those relationships, I suppose. Yeah. And it's also the thing that we can do so well in the arts, isn't it? That's the thing that we can actually do is give someone, let someone see themself on screen or on stage and know that they're not alone. Yeah. And that's really important. And even if you're the guy you've been in that situation, you don't know how to vocalise it. You might then see a glimpse or that kind of thing say to your partner, I didn't get it. And I can't ever maybe totally get it, but I'm still here in this goal with you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just moving away from a glimpse a little bit, what was the first theatre production you directed, Zany? Well, I mean, I was directing all the way through student years. I even directed something when I was sick form at school. So you've always been a director. Yeah. And then I did my degree and then I did post-grad and theatre direction at Hull University. So it was sort of old that I started writing because I kind of, my parents live in Edinburgh. So I came back from uni and sort of lodged with them and sort of arrived at the traverse and kind of knocked on their door and like, you know, I've been trained as a theatre director and then realised the bloody hard slog that was going to start to ever get it for anywhere. And so I kind of thought, oh, you know, this is going to be a bit hard. And I sort of realised that what you needed was a really good script. And so I thought, oh, well, maybe I could, maybe I could write a script. So I got a book out the library called How to Write Play and a wrote play and sent it to the job and they gave it a reading. And then I directed that for what used to be this festival called Fedfest and it went then to the fringe. And they commissioned me to write short play. The short play turned into a long play and Jack Bradley who ran the National Theatre studio who's drummer Turk, the literary manager at the National Theatre and ran the studio, came and saw the play in the fringe and he read the sort of longer version of the short play and he commissioned me aged 25. I've got commission from National Theatre studio. So I sort of, and he rang me, I remember the phone call he said, I'm going to commission you and you're going to need an agent and you're going to need a good one and I've lined up to speak to you know and and it was kind of, but it was a bit overwhelming actually because I'd only really written a play in a bit and I wasn't totally ready for it. He really took a punt and I kind of slightly then went bonkers. I mean, oddly, I do a whole thing. I'm the standard work I do on creative wellbeing and I really talk about the beginning of my career as this incredible up and down because I hadn't really worked out how to work with my piece of machinery that was my creativity and I suddenly had this really high profile commission and I just didn't have the experience of managing myself or have you know. So I didn't really succeed with that commission at all. I went slightly quietly crazy, wrote three plays rather than one because I couldn't quite work out which you know and it kind of went nowhere and I gave up writing, all disaster you know, all that great hope, but turned into nothing and it was only really then when I sort of felt that I'd blown it and I've given up writing was back working as a waitress that I thought that suddenly I wrote again and then I wrote further than the first thing and Jack Bradley at the National came back into it. They went into co-production with the Tron so it was all still there to happen but there was this kind of sense of it was easy to write a play or it was really hard to write a play and there was kind of nothing in between and I had to kind of learn how to dismantle the inner critic and you know I needed a bit more craft actually in terms of sort of understanding structure and I needed there were all kinds of things that I needed to put into place quite consciously in order to have a reliable creativity that would actually you get a commission and you know what you're doing but so it was young to get a commission and it was a slightly fraught route but luckily I persevered. I think that's really important for people to hear that though like that kind of you know because there's that thing of oh that's the dream national theater 25 and yeah but actually the reality of how that yeah in impacts use yeah so well I sort of quite often do this talk you know I'm often asked to talk about your career or whatever and and I've started to starting off a different way which is because you know so many people come in these kind of do a keynote speech on your career and and just tell the success story and I've done this and I've run this award and I've won that award and so I sort of do that and then I say right and here's the here's the shadow CV this production my very first production professional production closed after two previews at the Chelsea Center because the the actors were so pissed off with the director luckily not me that they walked off the set this was the show that you know I couldn't even get to the second act because I didn't know what it was about this is that you know and actually even a somebody's career that looks like it's been kind of plain sailing you just don't know what what it's really taken and actually the lived experience of a career in the arts is is well said by experience has not been from success to success those successes have been there but they've also been kind of accompanied by by quite sort of well actually I mean to go back to the story of the the miscarriage that project I was working on at the RSC the week that I was pregnant and all happy I'd written a first scene and they'd sent they'd set us off on this task go out to to Stratford and observe people come back and write a scene and I'd seen this grandfather and grandson playing really beautifully outside the RST and I came back to the bed and breakfast and I wrote this first scene and I think of all my work this first scene is one of the best scenes I've ever written it just you know kind of came out as a dollop there it was Then of course I had the miscarriage, went home. and all the plava. But the RSC loved the first scene. So they commissioned me to write that play and I became their writer in residence. So in a way I was kind of on this career high whilst internally kind of falling apart. And I had to write the rest of that play. And I just went on for years and years and I couldn't somehow get it back into the slipstream of where I'd been when I'd been 13 weeks pregnant, pre-miscarriage, writing that scene about the grandfather and grandson. And it went on two or three years so long that the literary manager changed at the RSC. And it was kind of slightly awkward. I had to keep dodging the old one when they were events because I just felt so awful. I tried to write. It wasn't that I wasn't trying. I was trying to write this play, but it was just terrible. And oh, God, went on and on. Eventually I had Maliki. And I remember I had Maliki sort of sitting on my knee. And the new literary manager rang Maliki's eight months, new literary manager rang and said, we still love that first scene, but we feel you're under pressure. So we're just going to say, take the pressure off you. You can write us a play anytime in the next five years and we'll be happy. And I heard myself say, just give me another fortnight. And he said, OK, I'll give you another fortnight. And I put the phone down. I thought, what the hell was that? And then I took Maliki. He was at a childminder's. I took him-- that was Monday morning-- and the play tumbled out by Tuesday lunchtime. That was it. And it was midwinter. And there it was ready to be written. Of course, when I now look at midwinter, it is this play about the child's position in the hearth. It was all about that little boy with the grandson. And it was almost like my creativity couldn't go there because it was kind of too painful while I was in that painful place. But with Maliki on my knee, at some sense of resolution and the play kind of appeared. So I'm a sort of great believer in actually that it's happening within the-- but what you have to learn to do as a creative artist is find a way to kind of tune in to what's going on and kind of give your spell-- we write from the emotional center. That's the place we do. And if it's difficult-- if there's trouble in the emotional center, then it's hard to write. So you need to kind of find ways around that. So almost like you need to let it go to let it come back. Well, maybe. I think for a lot of people, the big thing is the kind of inner critic that says, you're going to fail, why try all that kind of stuff. And one of the things I work with-- I do a bit of mentoring with people with their creativity and I work with my students. But one of the things is sort of identifying where the voice that's saying you can't is coming from. And does that have some vestige in a teacher when you're at primary school or is that-- who's voice are you hearing there? And some people say the best way around that is to kind of turn down the dial so that you're not hearing as loudly. And that can be very effective. What I've always found is sort of almost the opposite way, which is to replace it. So for every time you hear a voice that says you can't, you actually think about the people in your life that are telling you that you can. And you have more of them in your life. And I think we can-- as artists, we can be a great community to each other. You can have those people in your life that say, of course you can do it. And I'll wav in the banner for you. And I mean, it's sort of like the older you, isn't it, kind of coming back? And so who is it that's sort of good soil for you and find a way to be in the kind of good soil? But yeah, that's a snapshot of my mentoring work. I think-- thank you for that, Zane. Because I actually think it's so important that people hear that because there's this method, isn't there? You know, the torture artist. And you've got to be so tortured to be able to create the best work. And will you've just shown that when you were contained with Maliki or last? Yes, you're right. It all just poured out of you. That's right. And I think-- Yeah, I just want to say thanks for that. Because I think that's something that I think-- it's kind of bred within the industry, isn't it? And not just within the industry, it's everywhere. It's like, oh, you need to be the torture artist to make amazement work, and actually-- No. No? Or even you have to be the asshole. I mean, that's another thing that we could debunk. I think just sort of-- particularly with directors, that somehow you have to bully a cast to get a good performance. And it's actually-- it's really penacious and not true. And I think that as-- particularly directors or people that run buildings or whatever, as people in positions that are making choices about how to give people work, how to work with people, the kind of environment that you have on your shoot or whatever, we really, really need to start to think about that. There is no reason not to be a really reasonable human being. And because one of the things I think that people forget is that everybody else is also creative. So just as you have to work with your creativity, you have to work with everybody else's creativity, and that what's the best way of running that room? Is that how are you going to allow people to be playful, to feel encouraged to whatever? And I'm not saying that we don't want to be rigorous, and we don't want to be on it. We absolutely need to have that kind of rigor and forensic look at what we're doing. But it needs to be done in an atmosphere that is going to encourage playfulness and experimentation. It's a creative collaboration. It's always like everyone's in that room has jobs. Everyone has their role. It is like the bolts and a machine. Every part is an essential cog in that creative process. And just because the director's job is to steer it one way and create a kind of space that maybe makes decisions, that it is ultimately holding that space for creativity and allowing it. Yeah, absolutely. I also think you can always see it. Because I know a dance member, you can do it. When a cast has had a brilliant rare subject, and all genuinely, along with the creative team, are all working together. I always think you can tell. And I actually think you can tell and film as well. Yeah. Well, why wouldn't you want that? I mean, I always think, particularly, you know, rehearsing for stage, you know, we're in a room together. Certainly, I've changed my kind of casting way with working theatre. I used to, you know, just think it was about getting the right person for the role. Whereas actually now, I've so much more consciously building the team and think how are these groups of people going to interact with each other? Is that going to be something that-- but also, you know, you as a director, if somebody has a gold nugget of idea, you really want to make sure that they're going to say it. You don't want them sitting on their hands going, or I think I've seen the missing link here. But, you know, I'd then put my hand up, you know, golly. And, you know, of course, you need to stay kind of with the reins in your hand, and you are shaping it. But you need that kind of feeling of democracy that you're all making it together. And, yeah, so it's how you make great theatre, great-- - Well, great, anything, really. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Like in a kitchen, it's how you make good foods from the workmen together. - Yeah, I mean, it was one of the things I found kind of a bit curious. I suppose about the difference in film was that there was such a limited time with the actors. And, you know, I know that deliberately, we put in a rehearsal day with the two of them, because, you know, I'd cursed you to do it. I've worked a lot with before. I'd worked with Webit with Jordan, but didn't know him as well. And, there was a tricky technical moment that we needed to kind of get right that there was a bit of-- that we wanted to show a bit of the story, but we didn't want to show too much. And, it was all set in a bathroom, and which where was I going to put the camera? And, you know, we were in quite a small bathroom. And, you know, just sort of-- And, I kind of felt like I knew that if Kirstie and I had a couple of hours together, we would solve it as a sort of duo. And, you know, because John is such a brilliant producer and the kind of team, you know, including Misha kind of made that work for me. But I sort of needed that-- I needed the actors' performance there to kind of come along with me. And, you know, of course, Kirstie's so superb physically, as well as emotionally, that she kind of goes, oh, well, I could do this. Or, you know, actually, I could sit on the edge of it. And it suddenly felt like no problem. So I don't know. I suppose that might be if I have any influence at all on the way that I would run a second shoot or do something I would think I would always be pushing for a bit more rehearsal time, just because that's I think the way that I would get the best performance and best piece of film. I think the actors love that too when they get-- Yeah, sure. --their results. Yeah. Just that helps with all of it. Yeah. And particularly, you're not shooting in order. So they've got a kind of really head-fuck process going on in their head of this is like, this is two days after that. And that's three days before that. And, you know, I mean, to go through it a couple of times in order so that we understand the shape. It is such a different process, isn't it? I find-- I always found that really fascinating with film that you just had to jump in. I mean, film has a little bit more flexibility because you can kind of see as a director. No, I would like that time to work with the actors. The sort of like the speeds that Reverend Setty, for instance-- I don't know. That's just like-- You just need to have done all that prep work in your head and just-- The only thing is with River City is that the actors are so solid in their roles that they-- it's kind of like you kind of just have to make sure that you understand. that moment and where to put the camera because they kind of you know, sort of in cyclopeding. Oh, yeah, this this comment here finishes a conversation that was three weeks back and you know, so so they are yeah, they're so solid But yeah, carry on. What was just gonna say because you did a bit of directing on every set? I did. You just before I glimpsed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that was I mean that was I was so glad I'd done that so it meant I wasn't starting at nothing with with cameras, but of course it was was kind of in entirely different and but part of I think part of the thing that I had to sort of not get frightened of was it felt quite mysterious this kind of language of how you work with a camera and where are you going to put it and and I was glad I'd had that sort of with Rither City process where it was demystified and even all the terms are so different and a two shot and a dolly and you know you you I didn't know any of it so so that was good and I and to understand that the D.O.P. is is really you know the lighting is part of their world whereas you might that that wasn't logical to me at all and you know lighting is completely separate department in theater and so that there was yeah big big learning curve. I mean that I just with the glimpse you know I'm really really proud of it I think I'm sort of you know, it's one of the things that I'm so glad I made but now I also think I would do differently and you know I suppose that is the the role of a first short you know what amazed me in the edit was the number of times that we were using little shots that weren't with well after I'd said cut you know that we just happened to have a little bit more of either cursed to your Jordan sitting there with particular expression on the face and what it's like oh we'll grab that and and you know I remember John McKay saying to me you know be a little bit experimental you know get your take as you want it and then do a wacky one and I didn't don't think I actually really internalized that and heard it but now I understand what he means that you do want what you think you want but you're also going to be reaching for those those other things and you might be a bit short of of things to kind of piece the story together and you you know you might kind of look back and go actually we've only got storytelling we haven't got any moments you know there's something about the momentum and the rhythm of the the piece that you you might want moments where you just hang with the characters and just have a pause or you know and and quite often those other moments you you might be looking for but also me sure I don't think we could not talk about the doubling because you were in it you were sitting around the table everybody was piled around my sort of kitchen table and we were talking about you know because we had two of the of the character Kate played by Kirstie the older and the younger and she's visiting herself and Kirstie has this kind of very wonderful curly sort of slightly ready hair and we were getting these wigs and we were talking about actresses and whatever and then I can't remember how or whose idea it was maybe it was your idea and there was a kind of moment where we all looked at you and we just kind of went huh hang on a minute she's the right height she's got the right color hair I'm sure we could put a bit of frizz in that and maybe we had the perfect solution sort of sitting in front of us and it was just brilliant also that because you knew the film so well and you'd been on it right from the beginning that you were able to kind of slot in and know exactly what was needed but how was it for you it was hilarious I think it was that kind of thing where I think we were like going through the wigs and actually the new end and the hair color kind of like niches and then we all went oh I was like well I'm an actor so you know it's not actually I don't know if I don't know if I said this to you actually because it was all like so intense shooting but it was harder than I imagined it was going to be really yeah because I and I I realized this more like just processing myself like cause I've got this kind of dual career of like I've got an acting career and then I've got my producing career and and it's quite interesting because I think that those two don't often get seen together it's quite obviously actors, writers, actors and directors that actors and producers yeah and so for me being in that kind of production role like organizing things like being there to help people on set and like just being a kind of useful body but also having like things to organize yeah but then having to step into like a very different space as me as an actor although body doubling is again different from acting which is an interesting kind of course you are being sort of back of shoulders and head aren't you but just the time and anytime we glimpsed around saw your faces like now we can't use that it's such a bizarre it was it was a really like I actually think like I had a little cry one day on set because I was so overwhelmed I was like I'm doing so many things and clear and mighty the costume woman had put me like just they just talked to me in a room and they were like just take a breath and I was like I mean it's just because it's so it's so separate and so different and exactly that like you're kind of like being moved about you're doing things but you're like still thinking as an actor trying to remember exactly what Kirstie had done to like ever yes yes yes I mean you know we said I didn't work with with animals but I did work with children I think to work with children and that doubling sequence in your first film I had kind of no idea what I was you know having to sort of setting myself to achieve and you had to finish the edit online and then I had finished the edit online I mean Misha said it at the start a proper baptism of fire yeah I think it was I'm kind of ready to make another one now in kind of calmer circumstances I was going to ask you that I was going to say so are you oh my god absolutely well I don't know I mean yeah I just put in a thing for to write a feature script which would be wonderful if we got funding for that but I think in the meantime I would also like to make another sure I mean I think I I felt like I learned so much and I kind of want to have the chance to sort of capitalize on that learning because you know I think it's in many ways we got away with it and we did use those bits you know that were kind of dotted around and we kind of coupled it together and I'm really proud of it but but how I would approach it and it is I think quite maybe quite different I mean I now kind of understand what the the levers are that you can pull and you can push and you know I want to have a go at playing with them a bit more I suppose yeah so what have you got coming up next and he's obviously hopefully 101 Dalmatians musical yeah yeah and what am I doing and I mean I don't think I can say anything that's been announced yet but I'm we're planning that the autumn season for the for the Lysium and I will be directing in that and so I've been writing actually through through lockdown and so there's quite a few scripts there sort of now ready I wrote a children's novel which I'm just trying to send out and hopefully get a bit of traction on that but so yeah so I mean I'm always one for exploring different things just because I've never written a book before let's see why not but theatre's a quiet what am I going to do I'm going to twiddle my thumbs but so yeah so I'm always busy I'm a little bit kind of manic that way but I like to be busy yeah oh great really so much to look forward to from Zeni Harris and be your thumbs here I want that to be about to fall on my bum with some of these but you never know you try you try will put all the links to everything that you're up to because I know that you're creative workshops have you got any more lined up or and with workshops nothing so I've started a piece of work with I did a creative well-being talk online and I'm and I'm sort of seeing how that will go and taking I'm starting a pilot project of mentoring some people and I'm thinking that that's going to turn into group work I'm just doing a bit of training on how to run groups of working with wellness and so so that's a kind of little sort of side burner but but really writing and directing I think will be be my main sort of focus over the next year but people can find you on Twitter yeah yeah yeah what's your handle for Twitter just in EH bringing H love it we'll stick it in the I always point down as well as if we're like on some youtube channel and we'll put the discreet the bell we share and the links are here here and here so just to recap a glimpse will be on at the mental health festival dates are this it'll be screening from the 17 to the 23rd of May and there's also Q&A with Zinny on Saturday the 22nd of May at 2pm so you can book that an event right as well put those links in the description box but we'll be in the description fantastic just before we finish Zinny we like to ask our guests what the phrase persistent and nasty it means to you oh persistent and nasty well I mean I think you know some of the things that we've talked about in terms of persistence isn't it you know keeping at it never giving up I to think that so much of a career in the arts is about being persistent not going away but combined with nasty it's it's not not sitting back you know saying the difficult stuff not not being polite um let's you know I think all of kind of art and humanity is about about looking at the difficult, hard things to look at, the unpleasant places, you know, what does it mean to be a human? And some of that is, we have to be quite unflinching. So I think it's a really good combination of things persistent and nasty, yeah. - Try, we try. Are you too related to each other? - No. We look so alike. - I know it's so funny, we think it as well. - I think, amazing. - Oh yeah. - I was like, they've got to be sisters, yeah, amazing. How do you, did you meet? Did you think my god, we're twins? - I actually taught Misha. I taught her at your theatre. - Wow. And then, - And did you think, well, that's clearly my relative sitting there, I better go and say. - And the first time I was like, "She kind of looks like me when I was younger, but yeah, and then, but the older she's getting, "more she's getting more, more, more, "going into my lane." - Also, we've got to have red tea at the moment. - Yeah, yeah. - That's probably him. - Be sounded like as well. I mean, there's this modern, and mannerism. I mean, there is really something going on here. There's a few that can't see this. It's a pity. You should, you should load them up. - I'll take a couple of years off my age. You can add a couple of years. - This is Valentine's Day. - It'll be fabulous. - Thank you so much, Jenny. It's been so long. - No problem. - Have you on the podcast and to be able to chat you and thank you for sharing everything? - No, thanks for having me. Great. - That's a treat. And thank you, lovely listeners, for joining us on this wonderful episode. And until next time, stay nasty. - That's the last day. ♪ She's so nasty ♪