Episode 99 - Officer to Victim - With Jordyn Gray - Part 1

This podcast is recorded on the stolen lands of the warringery people of the colon nation and I pay my respects to the elders past and present. I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening here today. Sovereignty was never seeded. It always was and always will be Aboriginal land. Welcome to Reclaim Me. I'm your host Madeline Heather. Reclaim me as a true crime podcast. I was told by those at the centre of those crimes, the victim survivors. The general public often hears stories of victim survivors through the lenses of perpetrators or the media. We're changing that narrative here. These interviews are raw and honest so a word of warning is necessary. Discussion and topics may be triggering or distressing for some listeners. So please use your discussion. If you need help or support, please see the suggested resources in the show notes of this episode or contact your local crisis service. Hello, fam. It is Maddie coming to you before the episode begins with a little bit of an update on. Hi, fam. I am just coming to at the top of this episode because it is episode 99 and I just wanted to let you all know that if you want to be a part of the 100th episode, you can be. So if you want to send me in a voice clip, if you want to send me an email, a message or anything like that, they would like to share with me or other listeners about what this platform is meant to you, what episodes have meant to you. Even if you're a guest or a former guest, what sharing your experience has been like for you, I really wanted to have an opportunity to kind of reflect and go back over the past couple of years and what it's meant. And I thought that might be a really good opportunity to do that. So please get in touch with me. Obviously, I will always say sharing those ways that you feel in the reviews, especially the written reviews on things like Apple iTunes is the best way to support me because that's what can get this podcast into the charts. But this episode isn't really about that. This episode is more about kind of celebrating this little community and the amazing listeners from all over the world that tune in every week. So yeah, please, if you want to get involved, if you want to have your voice on the podcast and you've never had it on send me a voice clip and I'll chuck it in. But just get in touch with me anyway and it's definitely something to celebrate. But I won't more for long anymore. We'll get immediately to this week's guest, which I'm so excited about. Hello, and welcome to another episode of ReClaim Me. Today, I am joined by Jordan, who is coming to us from Brizzy. Welcome. Hi, thanks for having me here. I'm Jordan. I'm joining it from Brisbane today. I am an Air Force veteran. I served for seven years and I'm medically separated in April of this year. I'm currently working on myself and working on a project called the Athena Project, which is designed to help female and women veterans who have been or have experienced sexual and gender based violence whilst they are serving. And that's serving not just in the Air Force in the whole Australian Defence Force, right? Whole Australian Defence Force. That's correct. It's such a wonderful thing and something that's so needed. There's your the first person that's come on to speak about their experience in the Defence Forces and to even be a part of them, I think as well. I think it's an incredible thing that you're doing because as you know, through the platform I've created a lot of people message me. I think about 10% of all messages I get end up coming on to record. And a number of people have told me so many different things about their experiences in the Defence Force and it's shrouded in such secrecy and there are so many, I think, reasons why people wouldn't want to join them because there is a bit of a bad reputation there as well. Is that kind of what led you to start that Athena Project? 100%. I think at the time when I went through my assault and the weeks that followed and the years that followed, it was expected almost that I was I had to stay silent. And that in itself was so isolating as a victim survivor because it felt like I had no one to turn to and as much as there are organisations in Defence that allow you to kind of seek help. Your own chain of command expects that you don't talk about it in the workplace expects that people don't know what's going on. It's this big secret that you have to keep from everyone around you and it absolutely breaks my heart to hear that people message you and I guess disclosing what's happened to them in the Defence Forces and they're not wrong. Like it happens so often but it's so under reported also in the Defence Force and we know as under reported across Australia. But what I'm trying to do and the Athena Project is really bring to light the fact that it's completely under reported in the Defence Forces. No one shines a light on it and most of the time because of the bureaucracy and the way that the politics work. Individual chains of commander are able to like sweep things under the rug and essentially things never get surfaced. They never get spoken about and the victim survivor is made to feel even more isolated than what they were when everything happened. So I just think it's an incredibly disempowering event in itself but then the Defence Force just exacerbates everything else and as much as I have such a love for my service and what I did while I was serving that part of it has tarnished my service career for me. And in starting the Athena Project my entire goal is to one support victim survivors who are veterans because it's such a niche that people in the Australian public eye and the Australian public in general don't understand. There are so many different things that I guess are specific to serving members that people who are and I hate using the term to like delineate but civilians with the people just don't get it. So the I felt that when I was coming forward and when I was dealing with everything and I was still in then there was no one who I could really look to to kind of admire and go that person made it through that one. That person was able to make it through the whole thing and they're still there because they're not it's not spoken about. So when Brittany Higgins actually came forward with her story it was it was a huge I guess momentum for me I was like if she can do it I can do it because she was also coming from an Australian government organization and I thought well holy shit she's paving the way like she's changing the way that we see this and the conversation in Australia and that very same day I actually sent an email to a very important person and a very senior officer in the Defence Force. Because I wasn't allowed to go to March for justice so I had to take things into my own hands and kind of decide to go forward and decide to start using my voice the same way that people like Brittany and Grace were. So powerful to hear like and I think for I'm not going to speak for them but I can imagine you know for Brittany what she's gone through you know the sacrifices she's made to hear the impact that that's had just on one person like yourself you know makes it it does make it all worthwhile and it is so important. And I do want to ask you to kind of go back to your story but I just wanted to kind of reflect on something that just popped into my mind first and that was also this culture with the feel of my friends that weren't specifically around assault but it was around mental health and what they were saying to me was like if you are struggling in you know some of them weren't even you know they were. They're boilermakers and the Navy and stuff like that like you can do trades through there so they're not you know active on ships or anything like that like it's it's really a part of training but it is very very difficult and what they were saying to me was like it's really hard even though you've got psychology services there. It's almost discouraged for you to go and seek help and feel bad because that goes straight and directly back to your command so if you're saying I'm feeling depressed I'm feeling not well that's actually going to be to the detriment to your career if you admit that with the appointed psychologist for your area is that right. Yeah so it's different for each service and then again for each unit but I think before I touch into the rest of what your question is I think it's important to note that no matter your position in the defense force you are still like a part of a part a part of the population of Australia that has decided to sign that dotted line and and sign your life to the defense force and and in doing that you're you're already like making yourself different and you're you're saying that I'm signing up for a lot of things. I'm going to work in an office and there's nothing wrong with that but the defense force inherently by signing that line and signing up to the service conditions you are entitled to as much of support as anyone else as the people who fly the planes as the people who like navigate ships as the people who drive tanks and are on the front lines essentially like everyone is just as important. I think you are right the defense force culture inherently has such a stigma around mental health we are getting better in that regard I say we because I'm so used to saying it like the royal we but the defense force is getting better and I will note like the Royal Commission has helped in that regard but what is what is stopping a lot of the change and the real change from happening is the fact that and this is what I refer to it as because it is the pale style males in Canberra who just refused to move with the times. So there are people who like myself who are young millennial go-getters, who want to see the change and who want to advocate for the change and lead that forward. But where we fall short is the fact that the high ranks and the chains of command are a different demographic and a different generation to us. So they don't see eye to eye in that regard. And I think that's across the board, not just mental health, but also when we come to talking about victim survivors, that's a huge thing. But going back to your question, circling back, it is such a stigma and you are right. It does go back to your chain of command. So if your chain of command chooses to address that in a negative way, it can definitely impact your career. And the medical system inside the ADF as much as it like used to be really good at the moment is there's, it's completely understaffed and completely undermaned. So there's not enough support for how many people there are in the defense force currently. And it's just not maintaining, I guess, the tempo that it needs to keep up with the growth that the defense force is experiencing and then in turn, the help that people need. So absolutely. And I think I really echo that sentiment of that people at the top being so out of touch, like so ridiculously out of touch. And I've come from an organization that wasn't like that. It was so incredibly amazing. So I've seen that it can be done, it's but even with male leadership, like it can be done well. But the thing that comes to mind, and I think, you know exactly what I'm going to say. When I think of a stalemate pale male being so out of touch with reality and not understanding anything and making it so difficult for victims to come through is the, what's he called? The leader of the defense force, the big dog of the defense force. Yeah, the chief of the defense force. Yeah, the CDF is the short way that he is referred to. Yep. Do you remember what he said in the reference to sexual assaults on what do you call? I was going to say on campus. It's not on. Yeah, it's at it's at Adva. He was referring to it specifically at the academy. So I think he used the term the four A's and it was like, you can't be or you can't expect to, like essentially victim blame to people going like four A's. I think it was attractive alcohol alone. And I'm forgetting the fourth A. But it shook me. I was absolutely livid the day it broke in the day. I heard it. I actually heard it before it broke in the main news as most of the defense force people would have. I had friends at Adva at the time and they knew that I was very vocal and very passionate about the victim survivors and about this space. And they messaged me as soon as they left that chat or that talk that he was giving. And they said, you'll never believe what just happened. And they have a baton said, what happened? And I said, you have got to be effing kidding me. And I was-- And it was a reference to a question made or a reference to how women can stop being sexually assaulted on the base by fellow servicemen. And the four A's are right. I think they start for attractive. So if you are attractive, you will more likely-- you're more likely to be sexually attracted. So that's sexually assaulted. That's your fault. Alcohol, so if you've consumed alcohol, again, that's another fault of yours. If you're alone, so this is like the defense force as well, which I think shook me as well. This is supposed to be a place of safety and care that looks after communities. Not a place where you are this microcosm of society with a higher incidence of violence against women. And then you're right. It's being alone, being attractive, having alcohol. And there's another A in there. And it was serious. It sent me to-- I really want to find out what it is now, because-- Alcohol, alone, attractive, and out after midnight. Oh, that was it. That was it. So you have to be a home at a reasonable hour. See, that's what took me. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, inherently, all of it was wrong. And I myself have been through the academy. And I actually was a witness in a trial that went to the Supreme Court for a sexual assault occurrence for a mutual friend of mine at Adva. So hearing that coming from who is meant to be the leader of the defense force was one of the most upsetting moments and just like in raging moments that I think I've ever felt wearing a uniform. And those comments were made after I had experienced my own sexual assault. And I was going through, I guess, the depths of not only the civilian judicial system and the criminal system, but the throes of the ADF system as well. And the man who's meant to be in charge of everything said a comment like that. And I remember going to work and my boss was like, it's OK. It's all right. I'm sure he'll make an apology. And I said, an apology isn't good enough. He needs to demonstrate that what he's saying is completely and utterly wrong. It's not on the young cadets and the young women who should and shouldn't-- it shouldn't be able to walk around and just have to fear for their lives, essentially. They should be comfortable to walk around and do what they want. It's a university campus. And I know there's a lot of stigma around the ADF for campus. But at the end of the day, it is a university campus. And there are, like, sure a lot of young people. But to put the ones on the young women saying, don't be attractive. Make sure you don't drink alcohol. Don't be alone. And definitely don't be out after midnight. What are we trying to say to the generation that's coming through our defense force? Why would people want to sign up if inherently they're going to be unsafe in training? And then there are people like me and many others who are going to come forward who aren't safe in the workforce. So what are we doing to recruit people? We're saying it's not safe at any point in the defense force. Is that what we're saying? And the defense force is supposed to or is a beacon of protecting freedom. That's such a massive part of it. And for women's freedoms to not be taken seriously by the head of the defense force to not be referred to as male violence, which is the issue. Women walking out after midnight are not the problem. Women being attractive are not the problem. And again, it's also not only completely victim blaming and just out of touch with reality, but it's just not true. Like whether a woman is attractive or not to an offender has nothing to do with whether they've got an opportunity and all of those different things. I can understand maybe by saying if there was a serial rapist on the loose that they were trying to catch, maybe. But even in that moment, I think we need to go away from the age old, let's lock women up and police them rather than saying men can't go out because there's a rapist out there. Women should be safe. Men can't leave the house kind of thing. It's all like these on women. And it's just so out of touch with reality. So out of touch because it's also such a comment on the gender roles that the defense force still tries to permeate despite the fact that we have so many incredible and powerful women in our defense force. So it's just it's absolutely shocking. We're trying to build the next generation at the academy to come through and to be empowered and to want to drive change. But then at the same time, we're telling them like the women need to be protected. And you know, like, and I think in the same speech, he actually said like the boys should make sure that they're always like supporting the girls and make sure they get back to their divisions and everything safely. Like that, that's not something that they should, that's not a prerequisite of safety. And not once in that discussion did he ever address the lack of education, the lack of understanding of consent, the lack of anything that the defense force at that time had failed to do. And it's just incredible that they would say, you know, men need to help get women home safely. Like who were they protecting them from? They're protecting them from again, other men, which wasn't addressed. And I know you and I could probably talk about this for ages. And I'm, you know, it's one of the things that I've really enjoyed chatting with you about as well. Because, you know, as a civilian myself, it is really interesting because so many people don't have any insight. But I guess like, I know that we're going to go into the differentiation between civilian courts and then the defense force courts and things like that as well. Because it's a very different, it's very different than the normal societal experience going through this in the defense force. Do you mind sharing, I guess, where you were in your life when this happened to you and kind of what happened? Yeah, absolutely. So for me, I was still relatively young and relatively junior in my job role when this happened. So as, in terms of influence, I had very little. I will say I did have like the benefit of being an officer at the time. And I do acknowledge that the people who go through the defense force system and don't have even that small benefit of having a commission and being an officer, they do not have the ability to speak out. So at the time for me, I was two years, not even two years out of the academy. I was in a very remote location. I didn't have a phone call. any family around me, I had very few friends, I was simply there to do the job. And essentially, I fell into what the CDF said at the time of all of those four A's. Essentially, I was out after midnight, I had been drinking alcohol and I was alone. And that's the start, I guess, of my story of where I was at the time when that happened. So, and I think it's really point at that point, right? Because again, this cannot be understated or overstated in any way. It doesn't matter whether you've been drinking or not, whether you're walking down the street completely but naked, none of it matters. You don't deserve in any way to be approached or touched or hurt in any way. But there was something before you continue, I wanted to clarify for the listeners, you referred to the fact that you were an officer. Do you mind explaining the difference between what an officer is and why that was better at that time? Because an officer is a higher rank, right? Yeah, correct. So, at the time, so I went through the Academy, which meant that I was going to be a junior officer. So, there is a difference in terms of the officers and the commissioned ranks and the non-enlisted, sorry, the non-commissioned ranks. So, essentially, it's like, there are the officers will be more senior. This is a shocking explanation, but the officer's hold seniority over the non-commissioned ranks and they're essentially all your technical trades. So, your officers are things like pilots for the Navy, they're like maritime warfare officers and a whole different way of things. Intelligence officers, like I couldn't even list how many things there are, but most of our technical trades are non-commissioned and in those ranks. So, there are still things called non-commissioned officers who are in the enlisted ranks, but what I meant by having a little bit more of, I guess, the ability to speak out was the fact that I held a commission. So, it meant that I was an officer at the time and essentially, I hate the fact that that's how it is, but what I said carried a little bit more weight and the fact that I could get closer to senior officers in the squadron, felt meant that I could speak up and say things and be heard easier than people who were in the non-commissioned ranks. Yeah, I think it's just really important to kind of highlight that because there's so much in there, the people that have never been in touch with the ADF just really don't know. And even if you're listening to this from different countries as well, different countries will have different ways that they structure these things as well. But as you said, like you've set the scene of kind of where you were, so you work walking home from like an event or something or like just a couple of drinks with your mates or. Yeah, so essentially, I was walking home and at the time I was living on base. So, I had chosen to live on base because I was living in a very remote location in Australia at the time and I didn't feel safe living in town alone. So, the town was about a half hour drive from the base and it also meant that being a young eager junior officer to be really good at my job, I was really close by work. And I took my job very seriously. So, I had a team of about 40 people at the time and if they needed me and this is probably something that adds some context as well. So, in the defence force, there's a lot of impact and influence in your day-to-day life. So, if you're getting divorced at home, you're also getting divorced at work. If you're having money troubles at home, you're also having money troubles at work. So, essentially, your boss or your supervisor or your chain of command know a lot about the intricacies of your life, which is very, very different to the corporate and civilian world, which I'm very quickly learning at the moment. But, so, I took it very seriously and I found that as much as it was really easy for me to be close to work, it was also a beneficial for me because I could be there if my team needed me for anything and that meant it all hours of the night. But, I guess, going back to me, I was attending a party on base with some peers and I had decided I had a fantastic week that week at work and I'd not that I needed justification for it, but I'd said to myself, "I want to have a few drinks and I feel like I'm going to celebrate myself. I'm going to celebrate the winds that I've had this week." And so, I did that and I went to the party and there were people that I knew there and there were a few people who I would have considered close friends at the time who were there. So, on all accounts, anyone would have considered that a safe place to be. And take away the fact that I was on an Air Force Base at the time that should have been like a safe place, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in any space we should have that assumption, but you would just assume and sadly, it's so sad that it's not the case that a police academy that the Defence Force, that these people who are here to help protect our country and protect us as individuals and protect our freedoms and society are the ones taking it away from individuals. Like that patriotism sometimes equals misogyny and racism as well and that is so horrible to have to experience, but also the false sense of security may be that you've got there. Like that really sucks that you've had a great week and you're in a place where you've relaxed and you feel safe. When you've gone from like I think attending the party, did that? What happened like, did you just leave? Were you just like, "See you guys, I'm going to walk five minutes and what is the kind of environment like when you're walking?" Yeah, absolutely. So, there is a point in the night where I cannot remember from and I can't remember until the next morning. So, there are a few details in between that I was told by friends who were around me or people who were around me at the time. So, those details, I don't recall specifically, but I have been told so I know the details. So, I don't remember from about 11 PM onwards. My friends told me I left the party at two. They told me I was walking back to where I was living on the base with a group of four men who were all around similar age, similar rank to myself. So, all peers is what we would have considered them. At that point, that group got separated and myself and one person were left alone and two of the other men doubled back. I think they dropped something. And what happened at that point allegedly is that I then somehow got back to my room with this person and then I woke up the next morning with bruises and scratches all over me. I was completely naked head to toe. I was in my room, back in my safe environment, but as I've kind of turned over in bed gone, this is not right. I don't remember how I got back here. I don't remember coming home. I don't remember anything that's happened. I've realised I was absolutely freezing at the time. I had nothing on. My air conditioning was blasting. I looked over in the bed that was someone I didn't recognise in there with me and I immediately went into like a flight trauma response. So, I couldn't get out of the room quick enough. I was absolutely terrified. I ran for the door, essentially ran straight for the bathroom and had what I now know to be a panic attack because I had absolutely no idea what was going on. But I guess circling back and I'm sorry that this is not very linear for the listeners, but circling back the environment that we were walking home in, we were on an air force base. So there were no civilians around the only people that would have been around on that base at what would have been 2am in the morning were defence families and military spouses and military families. So, absolutely no one else other than serving members, military families. And essentially just a very close knit community walking home. So, yeah, I essentially just have a complete blackout from about 11pm the night before until 7am the next morning and those details that I've just filled in about that walk home were all things that that group of people have pieced together and then I have since learned that. So, so sorry that that's happened and I really truly mean that because it's just horrible to hear that and to like to put yourself in your shoes waking up in that moment and having those feelings as well of being like so cold and so scared and being you know fleeing to the bathroom. Once you were kind of like having your panic attack and you'd kind of separated yourself from this person, what happened from there? From there that was the moment where I think the adrenaline really started like flowing and I started to realise how much pain I was actually in. There was incredible amounts of pain all over my body so I had bruises all on my upper body, my lower body, primarily around like my torso and my upper arms and I really didn't allow myself to understand that in the moment when I was fleeing my what was my bedroom and when I got separated like gave myself that space I'd kind of got a towel and I had to go back and grab some clothes and it was the quickest dash I've ever done to get clothes and didn't even look at the bed, couldn't bring myself to look at anything because I had no idea what was going on. I was trying to put everything into perspective and to gather my thoughts in that moment because that's not something that you trained for. That's not something that you can ever prepare for. And as much as people say like, "Oh, you need to do the right thing the next morning." That was not where my head was because at that point I still had no idea what had even happened. I knew that I was in pain but I had no idea what had happened. So in that moment I felt that the only thing that was going to make me feel safe and calm was to get in the shower. And in hindsight, like, that was one of the first things the police said to me when I ended up speaking to them was, "Oh, you know, you shouldn't have gotten in the shower." But in that moment, you're not thinking straight, like you're not thinking clearly. And for that for me in that moment, I just needed to feel safe and clean because I felt dirty and I felt disgusting and I couldn't understand why. I do now, but in that moment I just didn't understand. So I got in the shower, I showered, and then I came out and I'd heard, "So at the time I was living with someone, there were like split living accommodations. So there was a girl living with me at the time." And I heard her door open into her room and I left the bathroom and I didn't have to go back to my room for anything, thank goodness. And I knocked on her door and I said, "Good morning." And I looked absolutely disheveled and she said, "Are you okay?" And I said, "No, I'm not. Did you hear me? Come home last night. Did you hear anything?" And she said, "No, I was really drunk. I got home really late. Why? What's wrong?" And I said, "I think I've got a problem. I don't know how I got back here. There's someone in my bed and I'm not sure what's happened." And she said, "What are you talking about?" And I said, "There is a person in my bed. I don't know what happened." And she said, "Are you in paint?" She was a nurse. So I think she went into medical professional mode at that point. And she said, "Are you sore? Are you like what's happened?" And I said, "I'm fairly certain that like I've had sex and that I didn't consent because I can't remember a thing." And I watched her face fall and in that moment the panic just reented and the fear just reented my body. And I could knock it out of that building fast enough. So I ran out to where the cars were in the car park and I sat essentially on just like a step in the car park and I cried because I had no idea what to do. I had no idea who to call. I had no family, no close friends around me. And I was absolutely terrified. The first call I made was actually to my dad who was 3,000 kilometres away. And that's a pretty personal thing to say to your dad. But I felt at that point I had no one else to call. I remember saying to him, "Something's happened. I don't remember anything. There's someone in my room. I am like in a lot of pain. I didn't go into intense detail with my dad." And the first thing that he said was, "You need to call someone and you need to go to the hospital. Like you need to go and be seen by someone." And I just remember falling my eyes out, absolutely crying because I felt powerless in that moment because I had no way to go. I had no one to call and I like, as I said before, I didn't know what to do. I had trained for that so I wasn't prepared. I finished the phone call with my dad and I called one of the girls who I'd gone to the party with the night before. And luckily she was awake at that hour of the morning seeing as I ever wanted her to be night the night before. And she came and got me. And that was the last that I remember of essentially being around my bedroom that morning. And it sounds like so lucky that these first immediate interactions have been of belief. Like it's horrible that you don't have anybody close to you that you feel like you can talk to. But the fact that you've got the nurse and she's kind of gone into that caring mode and you've called your dad and he's kind of reiterated back to you about caring for yourself. Like they're so important in reactions to people who've gone through something like you just have. And I just wanted to touch on as well like it's really important that anybody listening to this really truly understands this. And sometimes you have to check your own bias, especially this pale style male fucking dude who thinks that it's women's fault when they get sexually assaulted. If you are showing signs of intoxication, you are too drunk to consent. That's it. There is no place where you should be that drunk ever. If you're showing any sign of intoxication like I'm saying above 0.05 which is the legal driving limit, then you should not be nobody would should or ever contest the fact that that is a sexual assault. Obviously it is. And the fact that you've woken up in so much pain in disarray as well like it just it for me brings back memories of listening to Holly Harris share her story. Of waking up in pain, looking beside her, being freezing cold and having that moment of panic and realizing that you know something horrible has happened. And it's just it's so unacceptable. But I really wanted to really harp on that point that even if you're at a point which you will well beyond obviously. But even if you're at the point where you've had a couple 0.05 that's too much to consent. And it's so important that you check yourself sometimes you know maybe if the head of the defense forces listening to this now which I actually would be surprised if he did. Sorry. Take yourself, mate. Your prejudices and your assumptions are fucking stupid. And there's no place for victim blaming here. I obviously what you've gone through is a horrible assault. Not only one that wasn't consensual but one that was incredibly violent. Yeah and it's just it was so hard for me to understand that at the time because being in the defense force and you don't want to think the worst of anyone. Right? Like we're meant to be and it's drilled into us like you are the best of the best and you're meant to feel safe in that environment. But in that moment I had absolutely no idea what to do. And the person I didn't even recognize the person so we knew of each other. We didn't know each other. I knew his first name and that was it. I had like the incredible amount of pain that I woke up in that morning. I have never ever felt anything like that in my life. And it was the fact that I couldn't even I wasn't safe in my own safe space. The fact that I couldn't recall anything of getting home that night before or that morning of. It was the most intimidating thing I've ever experienced. And I mean in in the hours that followed that and then even in the days after that. I couldn't tell you how many times I was asked by people. What were you wearing? What time did you go to the party? What time did you plan on coming home? Did you were you drunk? And people implying that I had been asking for it, that I had gone to the party, seeking that type of thing. And that that has been the narrative that even perpetuated in the civilian courts as well. So that it's it's absolutely incredibly frustrating. And I found myself in the week after having to explain to people who were in my chain of command at the time that asked me questions like what were you wearing. And to that effect what is in fact victim blaming. But people that that that wasn't a term that was common in the defence force discourse at that time. So the senior officers who were meant to be the people who were looking after me had no idea what that term meant. So they actually didn't know that they were partaking in that behaviour until someone who happened to be the victim survivor at that point called them out. And it's a job that shouldn't be yours. And it's just so ironic that people asking whether you're drinking or not is a factor in whether or not you're to blame. And a factor in whether or not he is to blame. So for man is drinking then it's okay because he did it because he was drunk. But if you're a victim and you're drinking you're at fault because you were drunk. It's a very interesting with those questions inherent flip of what the meaning is. And people don't realise that they're doing it. That's why these conversations and this education is so important as well. Like it should not be for you to have to fight this hard the whole way. You shouldn't have to you know ever tell somebody what's happened and have that hurt back. What you were wearing is what absolutely fuck all to do with what happened. And what happened was somebody took advantage of you and assaulted you violently when you were intoxicated. You know and it's again like on an Air Force Base this is a fellow officer. This is somebody that should be completely trustworthy. I mean that's what we're employed to be right. And that's what the Defence Forces is branded as a trustworthy organisation. We're branded as people who civilians are meant to turn to in times of crisis. So why is it that we can't look after our own people? I am still asking myself that same question. And in the weeks that followed I still had to fight for what were very basic human rights in terms of the management of my ongoing care, my ongoing welfare and my ongoing I guess existence on that base at that time. So I had to fight for my ability to eat meals in what is called a a messing hall so essentially just like where people go to eat food. I wasn't allowed there so I had to find other means to get food for myself in that remote location and just basic human rights that people really take for granted but at that point everything that I knew to be normal was taken away from me and not to mention that my life was in complete upheaval and disarray in like for me personally and what I was going through emotionally I was fighting physically to have rights on a base, to be able to go to the gym, to be able to go and eat food, to be able to go to work. I had to be escorted to all of those places so my fundamental human rights and my autonomy were completely removed. So that for me like at the time I didn't realise the impact that it would have on me and in hindsight that's where my passion for the Athena project has come from because as far as I'm concerned at that point in defence the term victim centric did not exist and people really didn't understand what that meant and what it meant to take lead off a victim and responding to what they needed in their care and their welfare and their ongoing wellbeing. So for me looking back that was that was the thing that kind of pushed it over over the cliff for me and I haven't really given it the credit that it did for me until I guess now and starting the Athena project so that more women and more victim survivors can have autonomy, can have true support and can have someone who's going to be in our life for them outside of their chains of command. Absolutely and it's so shattering that people that have been victimised have to be the ones leading this because people don't seem to care enough but you did say a lot in what you just said and I've got so many questions and I think it's really important that we go back and talk about some of this stuff as well because again when people are civilians and they don't live on a base they do not understand you know in like a mess hall I understand like it's a place to go to eat but you did say that you weren't allowed to go there and you had to be escorted places before we get to that maybe if I try and bring you back chronologically. When you called the friend of yours that was there that night was there a process between like you sitting outside and you deciding I'm going to report this I'm going to go seek some medical attention. At that point I wasn't thinking about anything except for just I was in a complete state of shock so even like trying to remember the conversation I had when that that that person came to pick me up from that car park I can't recall that I was in a complete state of shock I don't know what I said I just remember feeling completely distressed completely terrified but what happened from there is she took me from that location and you are right I was very very very glad that and very fortunate that people like their first instance was to believe me and to see the distress that I was in so she thankfully took me back to her place she was married at the time so she had a full house on base which gave her I guess a lot more space than what a single member like me had so she took me to her house and in doing so she actually before I had even had the opportunity to do it and I think that she could tell that I was just so distressed she'd called what would have been or what would have been considered a HR representative in the Air Force at the time it was called a personnel capability officer so essentially someone who was in charge of all of the personnel's admin and essentially their well-being so she had called who that person was for my squadron and by the time we got to her place that person was also waiting there for me at this friends at this friends house at that point they took me inside sat me on the on the lounge and I just remember I was completely sobbing and at that point I didn't actually realise that I was crying I kind of touched my face and realised that there was just water streaming down my face and I couldn't recognise where it was coming from and they just spent the next 20 minutes convincing me that the next step for me was to go to the hospital and I just remember being in a state of denial going I don't want to go I don't want to do anything I don't understand and that was the one thing I kept reiterating was I don't understand I do not understand what's happening I don't know where I am I don't know what's going on can someone just tell me how I got home where's my stuff I didn't have anything with me except for my phone at that point the clothes that I'd grabbed from my room very quickly when I'd had that shower was a pair of pajamas so I didn't feel like being out in public especially on a base where people and members from my team could essentially see me I felt completely vulnerable and I'd been taken away and all of my autonomy had had had been taken away so they convinced me at the end of that half hour period that the next step for me was to go to the hospital and I'd said to them I'm not going to the hospital in pajamas I just I can't do it I can't bring myself to do it I have no shoes I have absolutely nothing with me and at that point I had a boss at that point who was very adamant that young junior officers are to be presentable at at all times and that was the first thing that popped into my mind was to make sure that I was presentable not to look after my well-being which is so disheartening when I think back of it now because in that moment I should have been my own priority but what other people thought of me and if someone saw me in that state that was where my mind went to so they these girls who had taken me in and were essentially looking after me at this point they said okay well if it's going to make you comfortable we'll go and get some clothes from your like your bedroom and they got in the car they left me there with her husband bless him I think he made me a cup of tea I don't think I drank a lick of it I still can't even remember if you tried to talk to me they came back and what they told me was they had gone down to my room where I had just left they'd asked me to tell them what I remembered and essentially exactly what I described to them when I woke up in that room was exactly what was in that room when they walked in so they walked in there were clothes everywhere the bed wasn't turned back which makes sense as to why I was so cold and there was someone in my bed and they were completely naked and in that moment they opened my door to that to that room and they said get the fuck out essentially he left collected his things they went in got me clothes and came back to the house where I was according to them still absolutely just a mess so I got dressed they couldn't have picked worse clothes honestly they picked a very uncomfortable pair of jeans and t-shirt but bless them for doing it so I got changed and they forgot shoes bless them so I had to wear someone else's shoes which were two sizes too small and we drove to the local hospital which was a fair drive away from the base so for context on a base as much as the base does have medical services they're not accessible on weekends so for an emergency such as that and it was a Sunday morning that this was happening we had to go to the local hospital and given that it was a remote location we got there within 20 to 30 minutes the car right there I don't recall it at all we got there I got triaged at emergency they essentially took me back straight away they didn't make me wait in the waiting room they took me back straight away and they said hey look we're so sorry what's happened to you but it's going to be about a four-hour wait because the sexual assault specialist like the person who does the the kids is actually riding her horse on a property that's four and a half hours away so I sat there in the back of that emergency room in clothes that were drastically uncomfortable with people that I would not consider close friends in a very uncomfortable sterile hospital environment waiting for someone to come waiting for the specialist to come they didn't arrive until five hours later and after that after that point I the the hangover had essentially completely started to sit in so I was nauseous I had headaches I wasn't allowed to eat or drink anything but I did have to go to the bathroom and the nurses reluctantly let that happen because we were waiting for such an extensive period of time but then the specialist arrived and there was no room in the emergency department for her to do the kit and the assessment and she asked if I wanted to proceed with that and essentially the decision was made for me by the admin officer that was there with me so that was an executive decision taken away from me it's it's one I would have made anyway but just in that state of shock I was I was very glad to have someone step in and make that call for me and in doing so she took me she actually had to we had to walk through the emergency waiting room where three of my team members were So people had then seen me and known that I was in hospital. And she took me into this back room, which was actually a storage cupboard. As remote hospitals are, there were files and boxes everywhere. There was a tiny bed in the corner. She asked me to get up on the bed. She goes, "I'll just move a bit of this around." So we've got some more space to do what we need to do. And at this point, I just was completely disassociating. I didn't know what that term was then. I do now after years of therapy, but it was an out-of-body experience for me. I was in all but a broom closet, essentially, with a whole heap of file boxes and mobs around. On a bed that barely looked sterile. And the specialist was trying to talk me through what was happening. And bless her. I think she was trying to console me at the time. But she was also telling me what she was seeing as she was doing it. So she was like, "There's a lot of. I can see friction burns and I can see bruises. I can see scratch marks. I can see." And she was just narrating what she could see as she was doing the rape kit, essentially. And I had no idea how to react to that. I hadn't been privy to anything like this before. And as much as it was so uncomfortable. And it was. It was like, like I said, I was completely disassociated at that point. And it was just. She said, "I can understand this is going to be a bit triggering." At that point, I didn't even know what that could mean. But I just disassociated because I couldn't stand the feeling. I couldn't stand the sensation. I felt claustrophobic. I felt everything that you can feel in that moment and that all victims of fibres feel at that point. It was. You're so vulnerable and that person is seeing you in that position. But then take that alone and then add the fact that I was in essentially a broom closet. I feel so uncomfortable. It was one of the worst mornings of my life. And then she took me back through after she'd completed the kit and written all her notes down. She'd checked all my body and noted and announced to me as she was checking my body where she could see all the bruises. At that point, I didn't want to look at myself. I didn't want to really understand what she was saying because I just. I didn't want to hear it. I was still in denial about anything that could have potentially happened. She then after she'd finished, she asked me to get dressed. She let me back through the emergency room where members of my team then saw me again. Let me back through the back of the emergency department and back to where the two girls were waiting for me. And in that meantime, while that had happened, the ER, like the emergency remurses had called the police and the police had then turned up to the hospital and gone to the front desk and asked for me in front of my team members. So it was a pretty intense morning as it was. Yeah, I think that's that sums up that part of it. Just no no discretion as well. Like it is as much as like you said as well, like it's great that you had an advocate therefore you to say that that's what you want to do and you're obviously in such a state of shock. And I think like regardless, you know, you needed medical attention to tend to yourself and to make sure that you were okay. And to check for things like STDs and pregnancy and things like that as well, it's so important for your personal health. But to have it treated so flippantly and it sounds like she was trying to do the best that she could in a bad situation, but there should never be a situation where somebody who's experienced that is in a broom closet. And that could also impact future evidence as well. I mean, if you're taking this very very important evidence, DNA evidence from somebody's body in a room that is not sterile, in a room that you're characterising as a broom closet. Like you could kind of say that the chain of custody of that evidence is completely fucked. And yeah, again, like for you to not be the one to choose to call the police and to have that done on your behalf, like I just feel so sad for that part of you because this is all happening to you again. Like this has happened to you the night before you've entered a process now that you've got no control over. The people that you're supposed to be the leader of are now in a room watching you and hearing police come to try and collect you as well. Like it just feels so so degrading. Yeah. And it just felt as if I had no control over anything that was happening. And I do understand that where I was living at the time did have mandatory reporting of domestic violence and sexual violence issues. But at no point did any of the nurses did any of the doctors actually ask if that was something that I wanted to do. And it may have been a discussion that happened with the admin officer on my behalf who was essentially acting as my advocate. But for it's all to happen in such plain sight. And essentially it was all just kind of happening together and we'd waited there for five hours for the specialist to arrive. And then in that time in essentially the space of 45 minutes, I'd been taken to a glorified room closet, had my rape kit done, been paraded back through the emergency room, been sat back in the room with the two girls who had taken me to the hospital. A nurse had then come in and gone, can I please take your blood like we need to do all these other checks for you and all these other tests. And I had no idea what was going on. They didn't even ask the other two girls to leave. I was in such a panic kind of state that I didn't even ask for any privacy at that point. I was just going with what was happening around me. And then the minute I went to walk out of that room was the police were waiting for me. And they said, would you like to come back to the station? And I said absolutely not. And that was the first thing that I was actually able to dictate for myself. I said, I am not comfortable coming back to the police station right now. Can you please come later? Like, can you come and get me from the base? Can I talk to you tomorrow? Can I do something else? Because I was so panicked and so just overstimulated and just in a state of shock that I still hadn't properly processed what it actually happened. I haven't been afforded any of that time. So what then happened was the police said, no, we need to talk to you today. The best we can do is we can come and see you in two hours out of the base. And I said, you know what? I'll take it. So they took me, the girls took me back to the base. I showered. And while I was waiting for them, I said, I just need to, I need to sleep. I just, I need to be on my own. I need to not have people around me. And the girl whose house it was, she sent me up in her spare room. And I just remember making the room completely dark and putting the air conditioning on because it was quite hot at the time. It was summer. And I tried to get some sleep or just like, I guess, a moment of peace to myself. And as that happened, and as I was on my own, the person who had actually working up in that bed with me that morning had messaged me on a, like on WhatsApp. So on an encrypted service. I didn't have his number saved. I didn't have anything to do with him. So it came up as, like an unknown contact trying to message me. And the message was, hey, how are you going? Are you okay? Hi, fam. It's Maddie from the editing room. And we will be wrapping part one of this incredible interview with Jordan up here. Please come back next week and listen to part two. We will be dropping this next week in addition to our 100th episode. So please don't miss it. And as I said, at the top of this episode as well, please send me through any comms that you want, any messages, any voice messages. If you want to be a part of that 100th episode, please get in touch with me. It would mean the absolute world to me. And in addition to that, we've got all of the resources listed in the show notes of this episode. So don't forget to go into the show notes. You can hear about the Athena project, which was created by Jordan for veteran survivors. And it's an incredible, incredible platform that she's starting. And it's just so wonderful to work with people like Jordan. So thank you so much for listening everybody. Thank you for listening to this episode. If you do need help or support, please reach out to those crisis services or suggested resources in the show notes for this episode. Have a look after yourself and make sure that you're doing and taking the time that you need to process the information or to process anything that may have come up that was triggering for you. Lastly, I do have one ask. Can you please take the time to rate and review on Apple Podcasts, modify and any platform that you listen to reclaim me on. This helps tremendously with me reaching additional people and making sure that we get the word out there that there is no shame or stigma that should be associated with being a victim of these crimes. If you could also share this podcast with somebody you may know, as you may not be a survivor yourself, but you sure as hell no one. Thank you again. Bye.