Episode 81: Heather Crank & Understanding Creativity In A World Of AI

My guest on this episode of The Right Questions is my dear friend Heather Crank. Heather is a designer and a generative AI designer known for translating complex technological shifts into deeply human creative insight. I've asked Heather to come on the podcast because of her particular sensitivities to life art design and the human condition. In her practice, Heather reframes Gen AI as a collaboration rather than a tool, helping designers, artists and organizations move beyond the fear and hype into a thoughtful and ethical creative practice. Together, we're talking about exploring creativity, consciousness, and a life in the AI-shaped world. Here we go. [music] [music] [music] [laughing] Here we go. Heather Crank, it is a delight to have you here. Thank you. I know you're very busy and I asked you on short notice and I really appreciate you being here. Thank you, James. I am going to start this with the question that I ask everybody, which is, what made you weird as a kid? Always been weird. I can't think of a time when I wasn't weird. I really wanted to fit in but it just never worked out. Always artistic, always creative, always a little bit ahead of the curve. What's the word? Would I take a little intense, I think, for somebody? [laughing] Yeah, I am weird. Yeah, I grew up with that question constantly, why can't you be normal? I'm like, well, besides a frontal lobotomy, I don't know how to do it. I feel that too. Heather, I've done some homework, done some research and one of the things I found out about you was this idea of being drawn to magic. Can you tell me about that? Yeah. I've always sort of had a sixth sense. Actually, when I was about 13, it was difficult for me and I had to learn how to separate my energy from other people's energy. I've always sort of had this awareness of something bigger and energy and a sensitivity to my environment. Magic is one of my favorite things. I have a connection to magic whether I want it or not. Obviously, I love magic, so it's not torturous, but it is something that comes with some challenges I've had to learn how to manage. Excellent. You also above your head, I believe, if you're in your studio, you have a large set of wings. Like human scale, like Icarus wings, tell me about that. Ever since I can remember, I love the symbol of wings and swords. I don't know where it comes from, it's just kind of been part of me. They kind of give me inspiration. They're a symbol for hope and freedom. And the sword for me is sort of like that cutting through, that feminine power kind of symbol. I'm really big on symbols in my own work, personal work I love to work with, symbols and things that represent the subconscious. That makes sense that you studied in school, you studied psychology as well as fine art and theater. So, the psychology part is that I'm just very curious about what creates certain scenarios in people's lives, belief systems, what's under the surface. And I'm also very curious about why we make choices. So for me, psychology was a way to better understand myself, but also as someone who has a humanitarian event, how to understand the motivations of other people. Fine art, just like you were saying earlier, it just kind of comes out. I mean, I didn't really have a choice. I am passionate and drawn to painting in particular at four years of life drawing. I studied the Meisner technique in theater, which is where you work from the inside out. You develop your emotional muscles and then you use that to create a character versus the Stanislavski, so hard to say, method which is the outside in, where it's the costume that develops a character. So I love, and this is weird because I'm an introvert, but I love theater, but I also feel like it's a great way to communicate to a large audience without having to interact with each person, which for me is a little bit exhausting. I think that, I think theater draws that personality. You do. Yeah, I think theater and comedy draws that personality because now we don't have to be ourselves. Interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way. It's so much easier to, you know, to put on a persona and be somebody else, right? Yeah. Sometimes actors are so much more comfortable, you know, in a role than out on the street just being themselves. True. As well as theater, you studied fine art and you put literature. I know that, you know, for me, literature and poetry are extremely important in my creative process as far as inspiration. I don't look around at other people's work. I don't look at design. I look at the American, the modern expressionists or, and I know that literature is important to you as well. You studied in school. You also studied dance. I did. Tell me about that. So I think theater was like the gateway drug to dance for me, the performance aspect of it. So I studied ballet and modern. At one point I did some choreography with the sword on my head, but the thing about dance, it's a way that I can express myself non verbally in a very deep way. And as someone who's an introvert to you, this was, it was like theater, but sort of more intimate in a way where I was really allowed to express myself. Yeah, and I love it. If I could smush all of those things together and make a career, that would be amazing. Speaking of dance, I know that, and you mentioned the sword. I know that the dance and sword were combined. Can you tell me? Yeah. So I worked with a dance company in San Francisco. And I had this amazing teacher, choreographer, and the last time I danced with that group, right before I went to design school. We gave a performance in downtown San Francisco and it sold out, which was amazing. And this particular choreography, I balanced a sword on my head through the whole thing, which it was amazing and very archetypal and very feminine power kind of environment. So it's something, like I said, it's one of those symbols that's near and dear to me and to be able to perform like that was it's something I'll never forget. Awesome. You know, the image of you as an archetypal, tarot card imagery with a woman dancing with a sword balancing on her head is fantastic and very apropos. Very odd ball question. Talk to me about seeing dead people. Oh, right. So this has just been something I've dealt with my whole life is just one of those I'm doing air quotes gifts. Usually it's when somebody passes, they show up in my dreams. And sometimes it's very abstract and I have to cut I'm trying to figure out what myself conscious is telling me. And then those dreams have a very specific quality. They don't feel like mental processing dreams and I've learned to distinguish the two. So when I have the dreams that are more abstract, I know to pay attention. And usually I can feel it. figure it out, or every once in a while, they're crystal clear and someone just is interacting with me, talking to me sometimes. If it's a violent death, they're sort of a shock involved, which is, those dreams are very difficult. Yeah, so it's just something I've always had, and it's a difficult gift. But I'm also grateful because it's allowed me to have a perspective that about life in the world and how we live that is very different. Yeah, well, I think that gift comes to folks who are incredibly sensitive to, you know, like, you know, an artist per chance. I've had periods of that. This is why I'm asking about that. Oh wow. I've had distinct periods of that and distinct places that I've lived that have had that. And I learned to stop kind of fearing it and stop brushing it off. And there was one point in my life because of the house that I lived in the point that I was in my life where I would just kind of look over my shoulder and I would just say hello and let that go and just wait for anything else, right? There's a presence, you know? And I'm like, hey, hi. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's important for us to, you know, to pay attention to those things. Just like paying attention to our gut or intuition or. Agreed. It's definitely, you know, it's one of those things. I didn't really talk about publicly until several years ago, then it was like, you know, there's no point in hiding this. People already think I'm weird. Yeah. I would like to switch over to questions about a subject that you and I are both near and dear, which is AI, of course, artificial intelligence. You recently spoke about AI and creativity with two distinct experts, Helena Edward, who are founders of the Artificiality Institute, which I think those qualifications make you an expert. So I would love to hear, you know, some of your thoughts about AI, okay? Sure. So you were an artisan designer like me, you started before AI. Were you an early adapter of technology in your work? Yes, definitely. I'm kind of drawn to technology. I'm drawn to kind of future facing things. I'm very curious about them. And like I said earlier, for some reason, I tend to recognize patterns and things a little bit earlier than other people. So technology has sort of been our trajectory for a while. And so that's kind of involved. The patterns I keep noticing. So yeah, definitely early. I'm curious about it. I'm a dabbleer at this point. And I want to be able to use it intelligently. Does it feel like a good collaborator to you? Yes and no. You have to be really careful how you use it. There have been some studies have come out recently around cognitive decline, which makes sense. If you don't use a muscle, you lose it. I think it's really important to not allow AI to think for you to generate thoughts and concepts for you. Or you come in as the sovereign person. And you have a conversation with AI rather than allowing it to do the work for you. So yes, I think it can be helpful. And I also think it can be dangerous. Yeah, I am just getting out of a period of using it rather intensely where I've realized I was using it wrong. And what that means is it made me doubt myself. Oh, really? Because I was assuming that there was quality coming out of this thing. And then I should trust it. And I very quickly started doubting myself. And it would spit out this information. And I thought, well, I've got to be an idiot. 'Cause now I'm spending a day and a half trying to turn that gobbledy-gook into fucking English and into what I think should happen. So I think I was relying on anything you lean on in move. And when it moves, then you fall. Right. What is something that you believed about creativity? Let's say five years ago. Then AI has either changed or broken for you. Ooh, wow, that's a good question. I think what AI has done is it made me really conscious about where creativity comes from, why the human component is so important. And that AI creates, from analyzing, asked, output. Humans create from what's called the adjacent possible, or everything that's happened up to this point that allows the new thing to occur. So we have the potential to create things in the future, which AI does not have that ability. And we also have the ability to break rules, which is part of creating the future. AI cannot do that. It's programmed to do very specific things. So I'm beginning to think about creativity as a decision, not just an output, as something that involves breaking rules, not just recombining what already exists. So the actual kind of tactical part of outside of the way we think, but actually how we approach creativity in itself, my whole worldview is beginning to shift and become a lot more specific in its definition. Interesting. Do you think prompting is a creative act or do you think it's just a new fancier version of art direction? Oh, that's a really good question. Okay, so the reason I like prompting is involves writing. And there's a part of me that loves postmodern literature and poetry and all that. So when I'm engaging, the part of me that loves writing and creating at the same time, for me that's, that can be a creative act. For the people who are kinesthetic, I think it's the devil and they absolutely hate it because it takes them away from what makes them creative. It's definitely a form of art directing as well. For sure, I use the exact same process when I'm art directing as I do with AI. Okay. Let's talk about the industry for a little bit. Oh, boy. You had brought up a point in something that you wrote on Substack recently about entry level jobs. Oh, yeah. You're telling me your thoughts on that. So we're trying to optimize the human condition basically. And what's happening is that entry level jobs are disappearing. They're being replaced. So we've got this whole structure where your entry level jobs come in and then eventually those people become employees. So what happens when that entry level rung disappears? How do people move from college to an internship to a junior role, to a senior role, this whole structure that we move in as far as our creative careers? It is a huge problem. It's already starting to happen. I think we have a potential to lose an entire generation if we're not careful. Yeah. I'm really concerned about this. Really, really concerned. I've got a letter from a young designer just recently and she said she was like James, my professor is saying if I don't get interested in up to speed with AI that I won't have a career, what do you think? What would be your answer to her? Right now, you're thinking, oh man, I wish James Victoria could be my mentor, my guru. Hell, I wish she was my coach. Well, you can make that happen. Go to yourworkisagift.com. There's a questionnaire that will probably help you out but it'll also give you access to a free call. So let's talk. Let's free you from overwhelm and creative frustration. Let's build your business and help you get paid to do what you love. Again, go to. your work is a gift.com. Let's talk. It's hard to see the future. This is a really difficult question because you see the future. Well, it's dangerous, but also the speed that were that were evolving. I mean, it's not like it's small incremental changes. This is like zero to 500. And it's hard for me to see where we're going. I mean, some people say we're all going to be out of jobs. Some people say you're going to train and do less. And yeah, I will take over part of it. You're not going to have the same employment structure. It's really hard. I would say to someone like that, I would say be aware of what makes you human. Do the things that create culture, read, listen to music, be creative because AI will automate and take over a lot of the entry level production type of jobs. But it's never going to be able to replace what makes us human. And and there's already a trend right now, kind of moving towards the anti-tech, you know, where it's working by hand and collage. And this show me where the hand touches something, show me the grittiness of the creative process. So I would tell her, learn AI, be aware of how functions and where the problems may occur just so that you can speak truth to power. And keep doing what makes you human, stay in the social sciences, stay in the humanities, stay in the arts because I do think there's going to be an inflection point coming up where there's going to be a split between two camps. And I'm not sure what that looks like, but I think if you anchor in what makes you human, you're going to be fine. You talk about the you talk about the split into camps. I was thinking about this earlier, I'm going to write about it shortly probably after this conversation, I'll be driving to get my kids and I'll be speaking it into my phone probably, I'll be so excited about it, but splitting it to two camps, if I make a mention of my attitude towards AI, which is holding it at a healthy distance. If I express that on, say, LinkedIn, there's a whole bunch of people waiting to jump on top of me as if I've insulted their mother. Yes, it's true. Right? Yeah. But that's, but, but Heather, see, that is, that is the beginning of a cult. Yes. Yes, I agree. The way I feel about this is it's really, it's very, there's a lot of black and white thinking, it's this or that, it's good or bad. And I think the conversation around this, especially the way it's already infiltrated society is really nuanced. Everybody has a right to their feeling and their opinion and I, the fear is real. I get it. However, I cannot imagine a time where I was able to change a tech bros' thoughts around what they were creating and how it was going to influence society. But I do think we can reclaim the technology and kind of be rebellious and use it to our advantage. The reaction from people, I think, is somewhere people have gotten stuck in it. It's also happening across lots of other different facets in our society right now where it's very binary. So I would just encourage people to have some grace, give each other room to talk about this and have nuanced discussions without attacking people because that fear, it's going to become an obstacle as things move faster in your left out of a conversation that's super important. Beautiful. I really enjoy your answers, Heather. Thank you for all this. Again, industry question. Who do you think is most at risk right now? With AI? Yeah. Kids. Oh, damn good question. Yeah, my kids go to a special school and it's somewhat, it's AI led, but it's not like they're being taught by a computer. They have a teacher. They've got, you know, they do a lot of outdoor activities and a lot of outside activities, but they know my attitude about it and even like YouTube is forbidden. You know, all this, there's so much. There's so much out in social media and we have a TV, but it's only Friday and Saturday, movie night with me there. Right. So it's I'm pretty tight on that stuff. And yes, I am afraid for their future because they're there and they're nine and 11 and they're going to be growing up in this world. It's to the point where they know if we go to the grocery store together, you know, I still am so pedantic that I point out, you know, the nine-year-old kid sitting in the cart glued to an iPad instead of walking around looking up and asking questions and my kids walk around and go, look how many balloons there are stuck on the ceiling. Oh my god, this is so cute. Yeah, yeah. Kids definitely. What about, what about in the industry? Do you think AI is kind of coming through like the grim reaper? Or is it just pointing out who was actually talented? Oh god, it's definitely not pointing out who's talented. I think that it's it's dangerous for the creative industry. The way it's been implemented, I really have issue with the way they scraped everybody's work and then use that to create a technology where people confuse the tool with actually being an expert. A tool does not make you an expert. It's a tool. It's an end to a means you are not a designer because you can create something pretty with AI. That's not design. I think there's a huge confusion around what makes something good and I'm really hoping the industry continues to hold standards and doesn't just collapse under the need to make more and more money. Well, I think one of the, you were talking about standards. I think one of those standards is that we as people need to have a level of discipline about it. I unfortunately think that we as people love our conveniences and love our ease and comfort and now that will kill us. For sure. I actually heard a quote from a CEO talking about how great it was to let go of people because people are so difficult and they can just optimize a machine to work 24 hours a day, no sick leave, no problems, no issues. But part of the beauty of being a designer or artist is that when you create something, you release it out to your peer group and you have a conversation about is this good, is this bad, and we set the standards based on centuries of experimentation. The optimization of everything creative will just kill culture. Yeah. And I think we take culture for granted. How much it feeds us. So I think that's a big problem. Yeah. Do you think professionally that we're basically shooting ourselves in the foot? Yes, I do. I think that I understand why this speed in using AI is so great. And I honestly not having to create a clipping path in Photoshop has been like one of the greatest gifts ever. There are ways to use it where it is really helpful. But we're not the way it's being structured is by a group of engineers. It's not being designed for creative people. It's not being designed for creativity. The way maybe other tools have been designed in the past. David Words of Helen and Dave he was one of the people who helped build Final Cut Pro and he talks about that a lot that when they were designing some of these tools, it was to help creative people be more creative. What's happening now is not that. What's happening now is about optimizing output. It's not about creativity. So I think that is terrible for our industry. Yeah. I mean, if I didn't know for a fact that the people who are creating these programs weren't just greedy bastards that would help, but I know that they are greedy bastards and that I know that they have also mostly expressed no interest at all in humanity, which you know scares me that we are we are willingly you know using these tools and giving them our money. Well, that's free right now, but the last thing that we got from for free wasn't so good either, it was called COVID. Yeah, now that that sucked. Yeah. What are people romanticizing about AI that just isn't true? So there's an idea about this utopian future and the way I think about it is there may be a utopian future, but it's only going to be for a select group of people. Yeah. I don't think people who have a lot of money given their track record are just going to suddenly give money to all of humanity and we'll have universal income. I think that's going to be a fight. Why would somebody who's wealthy not want to become more wealthy and suddenly be a humanitarian? It's just not how things work. So I think that is a I don't think that's a future. I think it's going to be a lot more there's going to be a lot more friction. Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. Okay, let's look at the other side. Before the revolution. Yes. Yeah. Before the guillotine's. Yes. What are the opportunities? So I think the opportunities are to what I would love to see. I would love to see designers and artists take this technology. Use it in a unique way, break it apart and reclaim it for themselves. There's a lot of historical references about people doing this. I spoke about this at Caldera. I spoke about hip hop as being a great example of taking a turntable that's supposed to play records and then suddenly it's an instrument and it was used to create an entire culture. I think that we have the capability to be really creative and really break rules and I want to see more of that happening because we don't know what the potential of this technology is outside of an engineer dictating how we use it. So what if we stopped saying yes to how it's being fed to us and think about what could this do? What's possible with this that could be positive because the technology itself is neutral. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm a big advocate for that. One of the, I mean the way I'm the way I see it and the way I'm using it and the way we'll continue to use it is I'm going to still sit at a desk with pens and paper and make and think and or I will go sit out under a tree and you know, um, ruminate on silly ideas and uh, make shit up for a living. Um, and then when it comes down to marketing it and needing needing newsletters and I, you know, I might start to rely and go, hey can you give me three ways to, you know, um, it's not me, it's not about particularly creative way to use it and it's not the way you certainly use it, which is actually directly in the work. Um, but you know, but I, um, I think we all have to go in, you know, at our own pace and find our own purposes with it and not just believe like that art instructor who was trying to, you know, lead this woman down a scary path, you know, that that it's not the answer. You know, I mean, I saw this type of thing when I was teaching the, uh, the school of visual arts when computers came into the, uh, into the classroom where would they would start bringing in work? I didn't allow any computer-driven work, but I understood from, from, you know, from spending a lot of time in the school that the students actually thought there were answers in that box. Mm-hmm. And not, not in answers in sitting out under a tree or having intelligent conversation with friends, right? Um, you mentioned the, the, the hip-hop. Oh, yeah. Revolution. Um, so what happens to the, um, quote unquote, original voice when everything is remixable? Mm-hmm. Oh, that's a good question. I think what happens is there's sort of a phase where everything kind of sounds the same for a little bit like everybody gets hops on a trend like everybody dresses the same or sounds the same and like there was that point when, uh, that, what is that called where they fix people's voice and it gives that robot sound when they're singing and then it became trendy and then it was in everything for a while. And then it's that adjacent possible like all the things that happen before that moment give you a set of new tools that you can use to create something new. So I think it's possible we may lose the original voice for a little bit and it's already happening where things are looking very homogenous, which is the big nature of AI. But then it'll also, at some point, open up a new set of tools or new way of working where there will be new original voices and what that sounds like. I'm no idea. I can't predict the future, but there is a historical context about how we come together and everything becomes the same and then all of a sudden there's another ramp of innovation that occurs. How is your, we're going to talk a little bit more about like a practical okay, sure process and whatnot. How is your day-to-day process changed because of AI? So my clients expect me to work a lot faster for a lot less money. So that is not great. Can you just hit a button there Heather? Yeah, you know, they don't want me to take a long time, they just want it done and there was some of that before, but there's a lot of pressure now. I'm also expected to be a designer, a copywriter, an editor, a marketer, you know, it's kind of insane. Yeah, it's funny. You remember when I was a kid, do you remember when I was a kid? When I was a kid, there was this over zerox piece of paper that would show up in different places. And I remember it was the garage I used to take my car when I was a young book and it was a list of three things with check boxes next to them and it said one was fast, one was cheap and one was good. And underneath it it said pick two means right, you can't have it fast if it's cheap and good, and it seems like that list has gone out the window. I really want it all fast and cheap and good. Yes, but it can't be good. It's just going to be homogenous. Thinking takes time. It just does. And that's the problem is AIs rec. it's a type of creativity where it recombines where it exists. And that AIs eating our lunch with that, that's a type of creativity that is becoming so common now that I would think if you wanted to step apart from other advertising companies, doing that repeatedly would be a detriment because you're going to get lost in the noise, thinking takes time. So if you want something good, I mean it doesn't work. The equation doesn't work. Yeah, yeah. I'm working on a series of posters right now of a series of prints for kids and I know what all four of them are going to say, but now I've got to figure out what they look like and it really takes me sitting down at different points in the day over a month and and and doodling and drawing and sketching and like until until that aha, you know, and until I find something. And what I'm looking for is something that I know AIs I can't do because I'm looking for the wrong answer. I'm looking for the worst answer. I'm looking for something that where people would go, you know, I'm looking for that double take. I'm looking for the, you know, the, when someone looks at something and goes, huh? And then a moment later they go, oh wow. Right? Yeah. Yeah. AIs not going to find that for me. The French poster designer Cassandra said a good poster enters through the eye and explodes in the brain. Right? Yeah. That kind of thing. I don't see that. I don't see that coming. It's hard enough to do in the beginning for anybody, let alone, you know, computer assistant or AI insisted. Where do you still insist on doing things old school? So when I was talking earlier about the brain, you know, and being aware of how certain technology affects your brain, I still, when I'm sometimes I'll use AI to sketch out an idea, but then I go in by hand. I will paint things, I will draw things because there's a handbrain connection that occurs. Yeah. I can't access certain kinds of thinking without it being physical because that's how we're hardwired. So, yeah, I do a lot. I do a lot by hand. So, craft still matters to you? Oh, huge. I'm huge on craft. I mean, I actually should not have even pointed that question to you. I just mean, you know, what happens to craft in an AI world? It becomes more important is what's going to happen because everybody's expression of who they are is based on their entire lifetime. And even though AI is learning, you know, and sort of optimizing everything we've put online, it doesn't have your specific touch, which is what makes something interesting. And craft is never going to go away. It's never going to become insignificant because less personal work is less impactful work. And we're going to get bored. Yeah. Yeah. Right now it seems like it seems like there's not more creativity. There's more noise. Right? There's just more stuff. Yeah. And it's going to get worse for a little bit. What do you think humans are going to need from you, from art, from culture in five years that AI can't deliver? Connection. Connection. Well, I mean, AI to a certain point, just like social media is kind of the opposite of that, right? Yeah, it gives you that false sense of connection. You can feel like you're having a conversation, but it's empty. And there's a lot of studies coming out right now about how people use it as a psychologist or as a friend or as a partner, but it actually increases the loneliness over time they're finding. Especially people who use it a lot. So I think connection and community. Those are going to be very big in the next five years. Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the things that led me down the wrong path when I was when I was using it the wrong way was the way that chat GPT would would interact with me. And it would tell me it was that's very you James. Let's, you know, I'm like, I'm like, okay, okay. Put with the fucking back slapping chat and let's get to the. Yeah, let's do the work. Yeah, yeah, it's a little creepy. Yeah, it's like one of these, you know, overzealous assistance who's just like brown nose and. Exactly, exactly. And then of course, because because. Anthropic was going against the the Trump administration or it's so, you know, so it's looked. I was going to switch from chat to claw. Did I tell you the story already where I was I was logging into clawed for the first time and then it was asking me a bunch of questions. Then it got to that question where it says, how shall I address you? And I'm like, oh, fuck no, you ain't addressing me. I'm done. I'm out of here, Claude. Thank you very much. Goodbye. This interview is over. I don't know. Looking for a fucking friend. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, how do you want to interact? I mean, that's, you know, that's the question. If you had one piece of advice to give to a struggling creative right now, what would you tell them to do or to stop or to, you know. I would tell them to make sure and read the studies coming out right now about how AI affects the brain. And to become more aware and conscious of how you're using it. It's not the studies are both good and bad. It can increase creativity. It can increase brain capacity. But only if it's done in an active, not passive method. So just become more aware. If you're working in it, I know a lot of companies right now are requiring that you use it. So be aware of how you use it. I would also say, make sure you're taking time away from AI to continue to work with your hands. Because that will keep those areas of your brain alive and healthy. And follow other artists connect to other artists and communities because I feel like this needs to be a broader conversation. Try to be open and try to listen instead of react so that we can. We can come at this in a way where we can work together to make a better solution for everybody. Is there anything that you're personally afraid of losing because of this world? Yeah, I'm very afraid of losing my voice. I'm very afraid of being dominated by a tech bro culture that doesn't have my best interest in mind. I'm worried about cognitive atrophy. I'm worried about what's going to happen financially to the creative industry. I'm personally like many people are really struggling right now because there's so much disruption. It's hard to know where to put your focus and finances are really volatile. So yeah, all of that. Heather Crank, can you tell me, this is the last question. Can you describe to me what a beautiful future is? For me, a beautiful future is one where we're inspiring each other, growing together, learning together, and creating an environment where people thrive instead of optimizing for the most money and for the wealthiest people to hold the majority of power. I love to see equality and power distributed evenly for everybody. To me, that's a beautiful world. That's awesome. Heather, thank you for this beautiful jam of a conversation. I really appreciate it. Thanks. Thank you for your time. (upbeat music)