Episode 8: What Would Our Students Say? and Building Relationships

(upbeat music) - Hello, welcome to episode eight of Lesson to the Bang Row with me, Ben. - And me Laura. - And today we are going to be talking about how we would like to be seen and how we think we're actually seen by students we teach. And we're gonna be reviewing the book, Building Relationships in Schools by Omar Akbar. And as always, we will be looking at a never education issue and then reviewing an issue in the news. So let's get started. So our question for this week, Laura, is a kid sees you on their timetable and asks, "What's that teacher like? What do you hope they'll say?" And what do you think they'll actually say? - I hope they would say, "Oh, she's really good teacher. Like she helped me make progress or she is hilarious and really entertaining that I'm supportive and I should think of positive things." So I hope they'll say, "What I think they'll say is, oh, she's that red-headed witch from the corridor." (laughing) Which is actually how I've been referred to in a number of occasions. - That's just quite the stuff. - Yeah, that's just the stuff. Like honestly, I've overheard a kid saying, "Oh, who's that teacher?" And then somebody has said the exact words, "Oh, that's that red-headed witch that lives in that office when I was in English." - I love it when you hear kids say, "Oh, that's gonna be a separate question." - Go on then. - The funniest things you've heard kids say about you. - Well, I don't know what the-- - Or to you. - Yeah, I wanna say this is the funniest one, but I have had a student once who was kicking off. - Yeah. - And we had to try and sort of contain them into an area of the school. So I was told to stand by a door. And I didn't, like, if she wanted to get through, she absolutely could have got through 'cause obviously, we're not supposed to. I just put my foot by the door and she was, it was just the way my shoe was caught on the door, but she couldn't open it. And like, she wasn't trying really, because she was just trying to get me out the way rather than anything. - Yeah. - And, and just, 'cause I'm now worried, but the safe guarding team were there and coordinated to get to what to do. And she just turned around to it. She couldn't answer all this big grin on her face, 'cause this is what she was like. Just went, "Why are you so fat?" (laughing) At which point, I just turned around and went, 'cause I was just like eating so much. She's like food so much, which is the truth. So yeah, I love it when kids stay. Just when they just tell you what they really eat. - Yeah, I am. I, yeah, I've had all, any number of, 'cause we should preface this, but this doesn't happen in our day-to-day class - No, no, no, no. - This is, we used to, but kind of-- - Extra-all-rested situation. - Our roles were primarily pastoral in the last year or so. And so we dealt with a lot of really high, what was the word for it? Really difficult behavior or unusual behavior? - Challenge behavior. - Challenge-and-hawaging behavior. So I have over the course of that year and a half had many an insult thrown at me. Often to do with being ginger. - Red headed witch. - Red headed witch, also not just witch. - I've done other words too. - The right rhyme with witch. - Yeah, the rhyme with witch, also the sea bomb. - Okay. - The cap before. - Oh nice. - Have you ever had the sea bomb? - No, I don't think so. - I don't think so. - I don't think so. - I don't think so. - I don't necessarily as much with men. And I too, and this, you know, if you know me, this is quite funny, I too have been called fat on a number of occasions. - Really? - Which is quite a small, woman. But that, that, what that one was quite funny when a kid called me fat and another naughty student turned around, looked at her and laughed. But yeah, all of them. - I've had it once I challenged a student who was pushing into the, to the queue. And I said, you could get back, like it's not fair for you to push in front of all these people. And it was a cold day. And clearly I hadn't blown my nose. (laughing) - Oh no. And they did say to me, I'll go away, Bogey Batlin. (laughing) - What I had. (laughing) - Oh, those ones are horrible. They're like, oh man. - I thought, I couldn't have thought I could do. - Yeah, oh man. Yeah, 'cause going back to our conversation last week, my reputation for students that I teach versus those, I don't teach is very different. I've had a lot of kids who have hated me from my policing of the corridor or the cafe queue. And then I've come to teach them and they're like, oh, she's all right. - You're not actually massive witch. You're all right, really. - And then they learn. - And then they learn, I don't actually know what I'm doing. That's probably it. And they would probably say, oh, she knows what she's all right. - So I think for me, I would hope that they would say, I usually could teach her, passionate, I don't say a passionate, funny, 'cause I think I'm hilarious, which is pretty much a clear sign that I'm not. (laughing) I suppose every teacher would say, firm but fair, we all want to be firm and fair. So yeah, that's what I'd hope. I would they really would say, will I remember, rate my teacher? - Oh yeah. - Yeah, remember my teacher. So I had one rating on rate my teacher. So I kind of know what they'd say. And I had to look it up, I didn't know what it meant. And the only rating I had said, it was, it said, he is an, oh, it was a complete, an utter, he is a complete and utter melt. (laughing) And I had to look it up. And I thought, oh, I don't know what that is. And melt isn't good, melt isn't not good at all. - I can't remember what they said, but I had a few on that rate my teacher. - Did you? - Yeah. - And then they all got shut down, 'cause it was basically bullying. - It was bullying. - You still see him on TikTok. Every school has like TikToks, don't they? - Oh yeah. - Like we've had a few. - Yeah, we've had a few. - And I don't know if I don't have a reception on that was. - I don't know if I don't have a reception on that. - I appeared on the most annoying teachers list recently. - Oh, and I think I was on that one as well. - Yeah. - Yeah, so quite with that. - But then I did have a couple of defenders in the comments. - So I think my students would be mixed. I think there are some that would say, I think would say what, I think it would definitely sound passionate, 'cause I'd like to think I get that across. I think someone would definitely say he's really grumpy. - Because you do have resting grumpy face. - I do have resting grumpy face. - And you're quite, we were talking about this the other day. - My emotions are very thinly veiled. - And you're quite a, so it was like that to me the other day that my emotions are really obvious. - It was me. - Yeah, but I don't like, (laughing) - I'm gonna say that in meetings, I think I'm doing a really good poker face. - I do apps. In meetings, you are absolutely not. - You don't do it, I think I'm really good. - No, but you are what I would call, and this is another love island. - Oh God, there we go. - Like a bit of slang, 'cause that's where love island, a melt comes from. You're a slow burn. - Okay. - Because when you meet you, you do appear to be very reserved and very quiet. - Very professional. - Very professional, a little bit cold, a little bit distant, but it doesn't take long, well, it does take long. It takes a while, luckily, to turtle coming out of your shell. And then suddenly, you're really the opposite of that. - Yeah. - I take a while to warm. - I take a while to warm to people. - Yeah, you really do. But once you do, then you're really good. - Once you're in my circle of trust. - In the circle of trust, and then the humor comes out. - Yeah. - But otherwise, before we've talked about this recently, before we worked so closely together, our opinions on each other will almost be the opposite of what we're doing. - I learn very quickly. That's, so my, the best man, Rich, if you're listening, best man at my wedding, and I've told him this, the first time I met him, I hated him. I thought, "Oh, God, this guy." He was a drama teacher. He was very over the top. - Yeah. - And he just, I was like, he's trying to shoot, shoot horn himself into our little friendship group. I probably play grounds, and yeah, you are right, because he ended up being literally my best friend. - Yeah. - And was best man at my wedding. You'd win slightly when I described someone who's been my best friend then. (laughing) - So again, that was my other post-base coming through like, "Oh." - And yeah, so, it often, often my first impression of people is very much wrong. I think I've probably got an almost a hundred percent success rate. (laughing) - Failure rate. - So basically, if I first I meet you and I don't like you, I can, that usually means we're gonna be good friends by the time we get. - And then if you like them, it's tense that you're full. - Yeah. - So yeah, there we go. That's what we think they say, and we would hope they would say about this. So we'll take a little break, and when we come back, we're gonna start talking or reviewing the old relationships in school. Oh, actually, before we go, I did wanna share, you're saying about your often your name calling has come about because of your hair color. - Yeah. - So I got heckled by a Coffent Garden Streep Showman. - No. - Or being ginger. So I was walking past where they were performing, and he was tying a rope to one of the pillars. I think it was gonna do a bit of trapeze work. I didn't stay around to watch. And he made a contact with him, which was a mistake. Made a contact with him. And he went, "Hello sir." And I was like, "Hello." And he went, "A balled-down ginger, you've not done well at life." (laughing) - So no wonder you didn't stick around, though. - Oh, kind of an entertainer. - Oh, the rush. - You're gonna draw the people in. - Because the rushes. The crowd absolutely loved it. - I love it. - I just went off. - To be fair, I carried on laughing and then turned the corner and cried. But I was also many crying 'cause my wife stopped me from going to the mole skin shop and cover garden. - Yeah, but that's probably 'cause she wants to be able to pay bills this month because you would spend ridiculous amounts on notebooks. - Yeah, I, yeah. - And the fountain pens. - So I get it. - I'm more obsessive. - Because she spent a lot of money on books as well, you said, didn't you? - Yeah, money I don't have. - Did you spend it before? - Yeah. - She stopped, well there you go then. So why do you ask a question? Husbands, why do you ask a stupid question? - For your bookshop in London, again, not sponsored, is my absolute heaven. I think it was very bad bookshops being my heaven. And there's actually a deep psychological reason why bookshops are my, my paradise. - They're a piece of safety. - But for your bookshop in particular, I just love it there. And I can spend just, my wife goes and sits up in the cafe and I wander around for about an hour and a half. And I had ten books in my arms that I was gonna buy. And I came away with four, I thought that was quite good. - I've never seen those challenges where they, it's usually for a husband and a wife, where the husband says to the wife, right, you've got like one minute or whatever, whichever books you can carry, you'll get, I'll buy you. - But then they say, I would just go to the philosophy section or the religion section. - Well, you've got to have a game plan. You've got to have the, so right now, because I fixate on the things. So there are two categories that I would go to, obviously thinking about the podcast 'cause I'd always put the podcast first. I might go to the teaching and learning section. But if I wasn't put into podcast first, at the moment, because I'm teaching ancient history, I'd go to the ancient history section. And I would just swipe my arm across. What, do we spend the bit at the moment? - The Rome, Rome. And literally, yeah, so I bought two books on Rome, two teaching and learning books. Yeah. No, sorry, three books on Rome. - We're just so different. - Two teaching and learning books. - And I bought one reading. - Sun and ancient Greek books. - Habit, 'cause I'm not, nonfiction is not me. And you can read several books at once and I cannot do that. - Right, so we messaged about this this morning, 'cause when you said about the book. - 'Cause we're actually friends, so. (laughs) - Yeah, when you said about this book, 'cause I'll need to finish reading it, before we record the podcast. And I said to you, I've got these books on the go. And I'm dipping in that. But I thought about this. And I think it's easier to do with nonfiction. - Oh yeah, 100%. It's not easier to do it. - There's no way I could do it with a single fiction. - But I don't enjoy nonfiction. - But maybe there will be something one day that'll grab me, but I just don't like it. - This is the most nonfiction you've read. Maybe since you need your reckon? - Yeah, and even I didn't like it then either. And I find it really difficult. I've got loads of books about curriculum that I've been reading and it's just, it's like another chore. - See, I feel like that with fiction. - But you know why? 'Cause I run out of voices, the characters in my head. And once I've got, so Game of Thrones, I love Game of Thrones. And I started reading the book and I was like, I love this book, this is brilliant. - It's a Game of Thrones. - Dragon's Knights. And then there were about character number 504. - Why don't you just have all the other. - And we've only got the chapter three. - Although your commute isn't long enough to listen to the books. - My commute's not long enough. And also, I don't think I'd listen. I think I'd tune out. - Tune out. - I think I'd have something else. - Yeah. - The songs in your head would start again. - Yeah. - Voices in there. - Yeah. - I've stopped. (laughing) - Yeah. So. - God, how do we get there? - I don't miss you. - Oh, Cobb and Garden, - Cobb and Garden. - Moll skin, - Yeah. - Foyles, - Appearance books. - Yeah. - Okay. But now we are gonna break. Go and get a cup of tea or coffee or whatever. And when we come back, we're gonna start looking at building relationships in school. (upbeat music) - Okay, welcome back. So, this is Building Relations and Schools. It's another one of the series, A Little Guide for Teachers, which the SCND School in Schools by Amjad Ali came from. This one's by Omar Akbar, it's published by Crown. And this book is, well, it's pretty exactly what it says on the cover. It's all about how you build relationships. So it goes through building relationships with an entire class, which I'm gonna talk about. Building a relationship with individual pupils. Building relationships with fellow teachers. Relationships with school leaders, teachers, sorry, and teaching assistants. And other supports, sorry, yeah. That I thought was a really interesting chapter. And then how to build a relationship with parents and carers. So again, structures very similar to the SCND in Schools. There's like little note sections at the end, which I like Laura doesn't. - Here was you to see how I feel about being a cop out, but I do appreciate again, we talked about this before. This probably, this isn't necessarily all us as longer teachers. - I think there are some bits. - But there's a really good, like little pocket books for what you, when you're starting out or. - Oh, if you're a trainee or an ECT, these books are amazing. - Yeah, because that's amazing. - Absolutely, mate. I mean, if I, if for ECTs and trainees, this is a five out of five. - Yeah. - Because there's everything you would need. It talks about how you'd make a phone call, talks about everything I won't get to do. Because which one of the relationships are you talking just about? - I don't need anyone. - You haven't decided yet. - No, well, you're gonna start, you're gonna talk about, - I'm doing chapter one. - You start with that one and then I'll do a little bit on the other ones. - All of them. - Well, I've got a few notes on all of them, but they're not massive. - They're strapping, guys, 'cause it'll be a lot of Laura. - Nothing to say. Okay, come on then. - So, the old age relationships in schools, and this one is the Bern-Raiships with a whole class. So, there's an excellent quote to start this chapter off, which again, I think this bit is important for any teacher at any point, where he says, "There is no such thing as the perfect classroom." And I love that, because actually, often we would think, "Oh, they're a bit chatty today, or I had to stand there, wait for them to be quiet." Even as experienced teachers, you get lessons like that, and you're thinking, "I've really struggled with them today. "I couldn't, they kept talking over me, whatever." And that is normal, unfortunately, for every classroom. And there are gonna be days where you can have a series of lessons where you think, "I've cracked this class." And then you have a series of lessons where you feel like you're back to square one, and again, it's perfectly normal. You're dealing with a room of 28, 30, 31, or more teenagers. - He's horrible. - So, it's perfectly normal. So, I like that. He talks about, again, another quote, "Do not lower your standards to, in fear of being just light, "as it leads to a poor teacher-class relationship in the long run." So, he says about the difference from being light and disliked, and says that actually, we shouldn't try to be like to such, but also we really don't wanna be disliked. - Yeah, none of that don't smart or Christmas. - Yeah, he's very critical of all of that. He says that there are some teachers that actively seek to be disliked, because they think that's how to be strict. And he asks you to reflect on like a teacher that when you were at school, you had a really good relationship with and think about why, what was it that they were like that gave that, and also, again, another one that you really struggled to build a relationship with and why, what might have done that? And he talks about saying things like, "If you're marking assessments, you say, "I'm giving you assessments back, I've marked them already, "'cause I couldn't wait to see how you all did." Using phrases like that, again, as an indication to the class of, "I care about you, and I care about your learning, "and being excited about it." And he goes through some different things that you can do. So, he says, "Tell a story when you're teaching, "but don't overreach or overshare." So, you might tell a story, I come in the example he uses, but you might say about, so relating it to, when you say rugby at uni or whatever, but don't relate it to when you were at uni, when you went out and got drunk, for example, that would be oversharing. And just making sure your story doesn't have to be wacky, doesn't have to be zany, doesn't have to be any of that, it just needs to be relevant to the thing you're teaching. Again, you're letting a little bit of your personal, our personality, sorry, out with the students, which again, we find it easier to build relationships with people who let us in of themselves. So, yeah, then he says, "About making it relevant." Now, I get a little bit critical of this idea, making it relevant because this is a lot in education of, you've got to make it relevant, you've got to make it relevant. And I do agree that you have to try meet students. So, like we said, we've shared experience our last episode. If you can make Shakespeare a little bit relevant for them today, they'll see the point of learning it. That I agree with. But at the same time, we can try and, or we can come across as really quite negative when we assume what is relevant for us students. - Yeah. - And that's a bit cringey. - Yeah. - So just very fine line between building relationship with being cringes and that. - So, it talks about relating it to the real world. Use a good example of maths, for example, 'cause when we always ask, "What has this got to do with, "why am I gonna need this other than for my, "making maths relevant in the real world?" The authentic, and again, another quote that I wrote down here, 'cause there's quite a few little quotes that I liked. And this one was, "The Belish you carry "will be depicted by your words, actions, and body language. "Believe in teaching, believe in the teacher, you." And I liked it, and he says about how you have to be interested in the students you're teaching. - Yeah. - Because that will come across to them in the just the way you are, and therefore they'll build a relationship with you because you're showing an interest in them. So therefore they're gonna show an interest in you. Be passionate again, I thought I was pretty self-explanatory, but I think that's so important about the subject you teach, gotta be passionate about it. And if you're not, you have to ask the question, why you're teaching, why you're teaching that subject? - Yeah. - I think that's a harder one maybe for a primary school teacher because they have to teach every subject, and there are inevitably going to be some. I had a conversation with a primary school teacher not that long ago who was really honest and said like said hey, I really hate teaching I really find it boring don't like it and obviously that hurt cut me deep because it's my subject but again is that so I get as a primary school teacher that that's tougher maybe than for a secondary have a sense of humor and that was interesting because when he asked the question of what teacher did you build the best relationship with that was the thing that I had about the teacher wasn't they were funny but I think that that some of that is to do with your own sensibilities and it's not you value and what's important to you but he does say in that isn't he that showing you have a sense of humor shows emotional intelligence yes so yeah it's really important absolutely be approachable and again he talks and I wish I could get this through to to teachers everywhere really about the importance of the meeting greet he says how this a simple meeting greet the classroom door and you don't have to shake hands I know some people say you do like Paul Dix talks about you have should shake hands some people that I don't really get into high fives and stuff but some people do some people don't but just meeting a greet and giving each student a good morning at the classroom door gives them that sign of oh you care about me you care about me coming into their classroom and they've you become more approachable to them straight away and they also talked about how we don't really get thanked anymore or anymore or we don't really get thanked to teachers unless it's the end of the year but if a student comes and finds you at lunchtime or they come and finds you at break time or at the end of the day they stop and have a chat on the gate that is their way of saying thank you enough to call was that why did they all see you out yeah because they're going out of their way to come and have a conversation with you whatever it's about they are coming to find you and if you're on duty you know for well and you need to believe it that they know you're on duty there yeah and they're just walked past you they've come looking for you and again I think as a as teach we need to remember that especially when we're having a bad day and we're thinking oh it's so tough if you've had one of those conversations with a student in passing in a corridor on duty whatever is remembering that that's their way of saying thank you and I like that and then the last one gives sanctions reluctantly yeah and he uses the phrasing of I come over the name it's our usual name it says like Laura you aren't giving me no choice here but I'm going to have to follow this up with a saying like using phrasing like that rather than get out go stand out there whatever it's that yeah you're giving me you're leaving me with no choice yeah and I but I like that phrasing because I'm a big believer in teaching students that their consequence is a result of their choices and again phrasing it like that is putting it back on them of you are giving me no choice you you are doing is leaving me no options yeah I've got to follow this up and yeah how your some teachers can give away negative we use class charts class charts points or whatever all the time and they lose their meaning and often it really hamper's relationship building that doesn't mean to build a relationship you start letting students off with everything that they do that's wrong because that is the that is going too far the other way and also doesn't help with relationship building they don't value it because they know what's good for them children don't they they know and they want that and all and even if let's say and this is this is purely hypothetical let's say your class is covered but I remember this is scored by a cover teacher who's come in there's an anything is cover teachers I'm thinking of a teacher that you as not know they might even be in the school themselves and you're allowed to get away with doing whatever you want you're allowed to be on your phone whatever and that's going to be great fun from two weeks max yeah then they hate it and then they hate it and then they go what's the point I don't learn anything in that lesson yeah and then they so again it's that where you could be careful don't go too far the other way so yeah I thought there's some good some really good some good tip bits in there so good information and so I've got some stuff on on all of the other sections but I'll see how I go so the first the next one is on students as individuals rather than as a whole class and it starts with a reminder of how much of an impact we can have on their lives so some really simple tips that you can do make sure you engage in chat with them and have a talk about you know football team they like and when you do this try to lose your teacher voice so kind of I'm not saying be like hey kids and start using the same slangers then although that can be quite funny when you do that because they do appreciate it as if if you're doing it tongue and cheek not because you really think that you should be using that slang but whilst you do that you have to be controlled and have clear boundaries and expectations with them so they know where the line is because they you know they really value that giving them warm and sincere praise or noticing things about them that also comes into the other sections to do with other staff a lot of things to do smiling or you know for example I guess this depends on your relationship with a kid and it's actually harder if you're a man but you know for instance there's a couple of girls in my teaching history where they've potentially hidden behind makeup or they've had really low self-esteem and I know that and they've come in one day without eyelashes or without foundation and I've been able to say oh my gosh she look amazing today your skin looks great that lights up their work they're like so number one that you've noticed something different about them their hair has changed they you know they've got new coat or something really like that we love that as human beings if someone complements you we don't do it now kids are no different to adults with that kids love a phone call home a positive phone call home even a negative one first they'll be really annoyed with you but when you go and then you make a positive one afterwards that'll really turn it around I like this idea of requesting a meeting with the child and someone from pastoral to help mediate and sort out you know where things are going wrong not waiting till it goes really really wrong in your relationship but seeing okay something is is going wrong here and addressing it and I found in the past where I can see where my relationship with a child is deteriorating stopping and going to the kid what's happening here yeah because we usually get on really well but in the last couple of lessons things are going wrong and then escalating that if you need to having that other professional adult there to kind of mediate between the two of you and here or apologising when you just go wrong yeah what yeah it's really really important to feel Rogers talks a lot about that about the idea of follow-up conversations restorative conversations with another adult president yeah really helps yeah because it also helps you as a teacher feel a bit more confident because you're in that room with another professional there obviously safeguarding reasons as well but it just makes you feel a bit more relaxed yourself and sometimes that other person can translate both of your feelings for you because sometimes it's hard to explain and they can say well oh I can see why you thought this and why you thought this and another one that I think really goes unnoticed and underrated is school clubs and trips because we often like I don't have time to do that thing but it makes a massive difference I've done two residential trips in my time as a teacher one on ski trip and one two bus lane and both of which required us to be on a coach for 24 hours which was very difficult to keep you when they won't stop singing or talking it took off the morning and they don't stop but they don't stop you think oh surely they're going to go to sleep surely and they don't well they did after I went down to the back of that coach. I did that. I need to sleep but I built I would you know there were kids that I didn't really know they were quite quiet or just I don't ever encounter them in the corridor and I just got to build and you can see why if you go into any school it's the p staff that have the best relationships with kids because they have all those opportunities where they're not behind a desk in a really formal environment where they can build those relationships and they can be seen more as human beings rather than teachers but if you ever get the opportunity to go on a residential 100 because the funniest things that you get to do things like I remember myself on a ski trip a p teacher like hiding behind a corner to jump out at kids and like and they just thought that was really funny catching them doing silly things or say like just really funny memories. But there were also other benefits because I went to the year eight one to Normandy and I always want to see the Bayo tapestry and I saw it for free. Yeah well I got to go I got to have free ski and I hated skiing. But I got to go and I will never ski again I will tell you that now but yeah really really good. There are the other sections about how to make relationships with teachers is a good bit about the types of teachers to avoid being like the busybody the martyr the man. Oh awesome. But you can hang on I'm going to find a book because of the book. You can see all of those when you when you hear those the busybody the one that gets involved in everyone's business or when you have an immune about a kid they come along and they go they're not a problem for me at all. All the one the martyr the person that's always got 500 jobs on is so difficult. So there's a book by it's called oops by oh no it's Welsh. He will. Why did you say it like that? - No, it's the name. - Nothing against wires. I have absolutely nothing against wires or the Welsh. It was only because I don't want to butcher what is, I'm sure a beautiful name. It is, and he talks about, I'm sure it's in this book, where he talks about radiators and drains and that there are some staff who are radiators and they radiate positivity and all that kind of stuff and there are some that are just drains and they take all your energy and enthusiasm out of you. I'm sure it's this book, I can't find it now, but I'm sure it is. If I'm wrong, I apologise, but I think it's that one. - Okay, but a lot of these are basic things like smile. I think I found this but difficult because if you are an extravert or somebody that is quite comfortable in social situations, some of this seems like a given, but I can see if you're new to teaching or in your new inner school or you are quite introverted, this being particularly powerful for you, things like smiling, looking at support staff, like making sure you know all their names, showing them their value because they are the most, they are the most overlooked people ever. People just, the school could not function without them. And people don't know their names, they don't know anything about them, they are not mindful of their deadlines. - The best one of the best piece of advice I've ever given was the first person you wanna make friends with when you get into a school is the front office stuff. - Yeah. - The first ones because when you're in a rush and you need some photocopying down or anything like that, often they're the ones that do all that for you. - Some of the place where I'm, they're like, I've got you. - Yeah. - And it's not, let's not say you only build relationships with people because you're gonna need something from you. - No. - But they are, like you said, they are key to everything that happens in a school. So you need to go on with them. - Yeah. And so there's loads of things in there as well. The section on parents is really good. Basically, he's how to get over your fear of talking to parents just. - But I like that he acknowledges the fact that it is scary. - Because you don't know sometimes how those conversations are gonna go, it's deeply personal. You know you're talking about, you know, they're child and they can be quite defensive. But he says, make sure you are being honest because even when you're saying something negative, they appreciate honesty. Make sure you're available, share the strategies you're gonna do, tell them I'm going to do X, Y and Z and I'll let you know in a couple of weeks if that helps or I'm gonna do this, can you do this so that we can work together and making sure that you respond immediately but also be mindful of their time. So a really good tip that I had once was to say to the start of a conversation, hi, I'm Miss Sutherland calling from blanks. I just, have you got a moment to talk about Ben's progress in English? Because that gives him the ability to say, no I don't. - Yeah, I'm not emotionally ready right now or I'm in the car or whatever. - Exactly, rather than going, well, this is happening because that can be really frustrating and actually they need that space too. - Yeah, there's a bit of advice I saw again coming up where which I always applied to parents as well, which is that as human beings, we are willing to accept unfavorable outcomes if the process has been followed up there. And again, as a teacher, it's making sure that you can communicate that. So if you are passing a difficult message onto a parent, as long as you know you've followed a fair process, then the parent is far more likely to accept what is an unfavorable or unwanted outcome. When they are not happy is when they are being told to accept an outcome and they don't think the process has gotten there as fair. And most parents, although they can, you know, parents will be and rightly so defensive of their child. - It's an actual instinct, isn't it? - If you have built that relationship with them, if you've shown them that your process is a fair, that you are going to also call when they've done great things, they will be your best asset in getting kids to make progress or supporting that child. Because once you've got them on board, you've got that kind of pints or a private haven't you? - Some of the best relationships I've built as a teacher have been with parents. And it's lovely. I mean, we don't do it anymore. When the old days when he used to go for a parent's evening in sports hall. - When you see them. - And you see them. And even though you didn't teach their child now, you just have a catch up anyway. I used to love that. I think genuinely some of the best relationships I've built with people I've been with parents. - So yeah, I think it's a really useful book, particularly if you're early in your career, or if you've started at a new school, and you don't really know where to start in terms of building relationships with people, or you are particularly introverted, and maybe you are a slow burn as well. Maybe you're a little turtle creeping out of your shadow to make friends. You need this book. - And I've convinced that a lot of this building relationship with teachers is how Ben got me to be his friend. - Yeah. - Well, that's not really how it happened. I just went, hello, I'm here. - Yeah, if I'm a turtle, then you're a limpit, a barnacle, and you just go, bam. - I'm your friend now. - I'm gonna be your friend. - That's it. - And you follow them around until you wear them down. - Yeah. - It's just so much fun. - You don't even have to sound so worn down and defeated. That's what my husband sounds like. - So, we are, yeah, so what's that gonna say? - You're gonna take a break, I think. - Yeah, it was, yeah. - So it else then. - We'll be back with some of that. - We know we need to score it. - So I think we're gonna give this two scores because we both agreed. We had a quick conversation about it off. And we both said, if we were scoring this for an ECT for an AQT, 100% by that of five. - Yeah, by that of five. - Yeah. - For me, three and a half, four, three and a half, four. - See how we're going for half scores now, would you? - Well, I can't help it. It's five. - I'm gonna go for three points, seven, five. (laughing) - They're three and a half, three and a half. - So we're 0.82. - I can accept three and a half is fine. I was leaning more towards four, but my worry is, we've got so many books that we're giving four out of five. - Four out of five. - And for example, if I'm comparing it, it's totally different. Like a four out of five to Ross Morrison McGill's book, only because I know that he's, I prefer some of his other books, which are definitely five out of five, and I love the man. I don't think this is on the part with that. So we're just why I'm gonna go three and a half, rather than four. - Awesome. - All right, so we're gonna take a break, and when we come back, we're gonna be, I think it's my turn, isn't it, to pick the thing we're talking about. - Yeah. - So come back and join us when I've decided what that is. Well, I'm making cup of tea. I'll see you soon. (upbeat music) Hello, welcome back. So in this section, I thought we would discuss a movement led by an artist called David Shrigley to introduce the arts into STEM subjects. So it would make it steam rather than STEM. And yes, the idea of this is big emphasis in schools at the moment on the STEM subjects. So, prison, science, technology, engineering, mathematics, and yeah, that has been detrimental to subjects like the arts. So our drama, music, art. - Well, we're seeing a lot of fewer kids selecting the arts subject for GCSEs and A-levels, aren't we? We're seeing massive amounts of students selecting triple science or science and math at A-levels. - Yeah. So this movement is to try and, I suppose, bring the arts back. So I suppose the question is, are the arts important? 100%. - Why? - Not just in terms of culture and beauty, the way that we experience the world and we navigate our understanding of the world and deal with complex team and issues and emotions. A lot of that can be done through art and it's really important, right? - Yeah, confidence, I suppose, as well. - Yeah. - Building up people's ability to talk in front of a crowd is important. - Well, without art, where's the enjoyment in like, if you think about everything that we, everything that we do outside of work, outside of living, working to live. So it's kind of what we're doing at the minute. It's a lot of space, right? Like the media you consume, even if you are a massive gamer, a lot of that is artistic. - It's beautiful at working. - Yeah, exactly. Film, TV, books, graphic, not like everything we do for enjoyment is from the art. So if we don't invest in that, then our pure sources of enjoyment are gone. - So where does it come from then, the idea that the arts are not there? 'Cause it's the old one isn't it, is, oh, we go to school and get a drama, or we go to uni and get a drama degree. What are you gonna do with that? - Well, well, - Where does it end up? - In an amazing English teacher and blog author is what you end up. - So where does it come from then, the idea that the art's not valuable? Because it's harder to see a guess a career path from the art, doesn't it? It's like, you know, it's a challenging environment to be in. It's really competitive. It's, your wages are untenable. You're kind of, it's hard to be middling, I guess, and have a living wage, isn't it? You can't, you have to be really, really good. And it's difficult to get into. So therefore, guess with a high, I don't wanna say failure, right? But in terms of what people perceive to be success, being making a difference. making a lot of money from a career, it has a high failure rate and therefore it's not a safe bet so it's not a successful career and we define success by how much money you make and if you are a job being actor or an extra or do you know what I mean, there can be very little game design unless you are working for the top design studios or you know your lead designer, you're paying me quite a little. Do you think there's an emphasis in the arts or an assumption in the arts of natural ability? Yeah. And the idea that to a certain extent it can't be taught. So for example, my dad is an amazing artist, he's just naturally very good at it. I'm okay, well we've had this conversation, I'm okay, I like a happy thing. But I remember in my art class at, I did AS level art and I remember in my art class that you sit there spending hours on this picture and I'd be thinking, that's alright you know, then you get up and go around the room and you see someone else's that is just miles better. It's interesting, isn't it? Because it's what we program to believe about ourselves. I remember from an early age knowing that I wasn't very good at art, I couldn't do it, I wasn't as good as other people, but knowing I was good at drama, I could do that, I could perform, I was a performer. But I think that came from my parents and my dad, they're making me every kind of gathering, seeing my old man said follow the van and a cock the accent from about the age of two or three. So I used to do the Gune show. There you go. Doing shows and things, I think it comes from your parents. But then that also all trickles down from society, doesn't it? Because if you're living in a society that doesn't value the arts, your parents at a certain point will stop encouraging you and shaping and molding you. We've both got children. A lot of what they do outside of school, although it's shaped by what they're interested in, is also shaped by us. It's a very much a performer in my eyes. She loves doing shows. She loves singing. So I'm like, okay, we'll put you in a theatre like school. We'll do a musical theatre thing every week, but I value the arts. And if I didn't, I probably wouldn't have pushed her into that. And therefore she'd have not that exposure. And you will, Max says like football. And it is football all the time. Almost every day of the week. And drums. But also, we're in a luxury position in the sense that we can afford to do those additional things. But they don't get them in school because it's not value. Sure. They get that exposure from. Yeah, I actually, actually that point. But do you think so? If you want to be so you tend to stick at things you feel successful in. So you, the point that you've just said there that you didn't go so much with art, but you did with drama because you felt successful. If we're saying that it's incredibly difficult to teach someone to be good at these things. But we're only talking about certain skills though, right? Because there are so many aspects. Okay, so if you look at drama and performance, there's so many aspects of that where you can train to be good. I remember there was a boy at school who was in the year above me and it was terrible, terrible actor, really not good. And we always go, oh my god, he wants to go and be like a professional actor. He didn't have the raw talent. But then the whole wheel like idiots, because he did it. He just like grafted and got better and better. He's like saying, you've got no aptitude for maths. No, but that's but that is the point of making. So the point I'm making is that we are in a position where we're fortunate that if you're more likely to stick to something you feel successful at. Yeah. And we're saying the arts are something the more exposure you get, the better you'll be there for the more successful you'll be the more likely I'd stick with it. They're we're fortunate in the sense that we can afford to send our kids to these things. Exactly. So what about those that can't? Yeah, well, it needs to be built into schools, isn't it? We need to be looking more at how we can develop that love and passion. It's hard as well at primary school because it's it requires specialist teachers, which there might not be a lot of because again, a lot of people, it's not a lot of money in it. And yeah, yeah. I think it's interesting as the ways that we secondary with more of a wealth of specialist can support primary, I think, and doing that. Sure. I mean, there's a there's a big strain on curriculum time as well, isn't there? Yeah. Because you have to be taken into account, I suppose. And often because because schools are measured by or parents certainly value how well a school that educates children in into STEM subjects, English maths and science, in particular, I know the reason for English and STEM, but the core subjects. But more time is given to those subjects because they're considered more valuable by the system the schools in. So I don't think this would happen unless there was a change in, like, well, culturally to a certain extent, but also how schools are judged based on their performance. Yeah. And that would be, I mean, that's a big change, isn't it? A massive change, isn't it? And the arts being a prerequisite on a curriculum and not an additional and add on, like, oh, we better have some drama in there somewhere. Actually, it's thoughtfully built in and given that the time it deserves. And not just an extra turns into an extra English lesson. Yeah. Because that's really how often happens, doesn't it? Yeah. In lots of schools. So when I went to school, as I said, we did, we did drama. And we had a really good drama department. And it was valued. So therefore, it was a really popular course both GCC and A level. But I know, I mean, I went to uni with friends who did drama and they went to uni to do drama and they were in classes of three of them at A level. Yeah, that was in my 13 class, there were three of us. We had, I think we had seven or eight in year 12 and then that dropped down to three. So I think there were like something like 15 or 16 of us in New York. Really? Yeah. But I think it's interesting, isn't it? Because I had a teacher say to me at the end of post 16 in the year 13 when I was applying and I was applying for the eternal performance. I was very specifically not doing like a performing arts degree. I wanted to do more and more academic degree because I didn't think I wanted to be just a, not just a performance, but I didn't think I wanted to be to focus on just acting. It's just, I don't mean just as in like it's not a worthy career, but I didn't want to be an actor. Yeah. I didn't, I think I wanted more options than that. And I had, I remember my teacher, she was a geography teacher say to me, I don't think you should do that. I don't think you should perform five-thit from performance studies. Why don't you do English and drama at university? Because you're not going to get very far with that. As a teacher? As a teacher and I said, but I'm doing a degree because I want to do a degree in a subject that I love. Something that I'm really interested in. I'm not only doing a degree for a career path. I hadn't even necessarily considered that. It's because I wanted to continue education and I wanted to continue to learn. But if I'd have only narrowed it down by, you know, what was a feasible career path, I probably still would have ended up in the same place because we've talked about before I wanted to be a teacher forever. But I would have missed out on doing practical community theatre where I got to go to a prison and do drama for the female prisoners and do a workshop with them. I wouldn't have got to do theatre and education where we created a show for children and had the children come in and watch us perform. And then I wouldn't have had those experiences had I not done that degree. Yeah. Well, there you go. But yeah, I really want to know about this concept is how, what's his proposal for how this would work? How would they get the arts in there? Because I guess there's like, we talked about one of our advanced learning days before where we'd pair subjects up to do some more cross-curricular match up and I'd had ideas about doing like the art of science. Yeah. And we do do that. There was an AOD that we did before, wasn't there, Advanced Learning Day, where they did art with science and they got together and they looked at like the cell structure of leaves and plants didn't they? Yeah. And they drew them. Yeah. And they were like, "I think it's in that way or I want to know what he's thinking." Yeah, it'd be interesting, wouldn't it? It'd be interesting because it is the building of the skills that you need in any career. Because I think that's what I said earlier. I think one of the good things about drama is it does build up your confidence. I mean, drama. I think any art does anyway. It builds up your confidence because even if you're painting a piece or you're drawing a piece that is then going on display, that's tough. That takes a lot of courage to do that because you are literally putting something you spend a lot of time on, a lot of effort on. Sometimes you need an hours with a sketchbook work for putting it on display for somebody to critique. So even if it's not drama or such, it builds that confidence in you which I think is a key employability skill. Talk about that, don't we, like the Gatsby Benchmarks and stuff. There are employability skills that we need and that our students need. And I do think the arts are good for that. There's so many ways in which I can see, and obviously this is more of a drama head on where you could see that element of performance. being such a good route in so many subjects. Obviously in English it's obvious where we do we do plays but even in text like today we were doing my last duck chest with Year 11 recapping it but actually performing the poet poem with the students having them hot seat characters, having them you know do their own dramatic monologues in response and you could see it in your subject as well having them you know like do thought tracking or writing, sort of debate like all of those things being so powerful in our subjects. Yeah I mean I think it goes back to like you said you don't have to pick an art subject because you want to be that because you want to be an artist because you want to be an actor like you can and there's not enough space I think on the curriculum at the moment for students to just to pick something they want to do because they love to do it. Yeah but that speaks to our entire framing of an education system as being only way to create like a workforce but it's not the point of education is to be a lifelong learner to you know find an interest to find a passion and learn more about it. Where is that I mean we never had it because our education systems built for the industrial revolution to make good workers and that's the crux of the problem. Do you think so I don't know enough about the American system but they have like electives don't they in courses so they have their core subjects they have to do. I think if I understand it right from what a college purely from from your American from my American TV shows. Yeah. Is that they then have electives and things that they can do a worth extra credit. Yes so if we're talking about college or university. So college they have a foundation year there are degrees of three years there's a four they have a foundation year in which they have to do science and maths still they have like prerequisite and then they can kind of specialize but they still have to have a certain like level of classes in each of in those kind of core subjects. I think at high school it's different because they do have electives and they do have things that they can choose but they still have specific subjects and they have the I don't think it's that different in terms of what is valued because I don't think the arts are any more valued. I just think in whether you could have a you could have assessment I think is more interesting than what we do. Or whether you could have a curriculum system that has that element of electivity in it. Yeah. Where you can maybe choose right for this term I'm going to do this unit in drama or art and then at the end of that term you get a credit towards it and then you can move on and then the next up you can even choose to stay and do the next bit or you can choose okay I've done that now I want to go move on. I want to experience something. It just keeps all of those subjects open to students as long as possible and you can you know I don't know if you're like RE for example if you if you know that this unit is on medical ethics. For example and you're somebody does want to be a doctor. Maybe that would be really useful for you. That could be a really useful unit and you could go and do that for a term and then the end of the term you get your credits and then the RE elective I don't know goes on to Christianity beliefs and practices in which case you go I don't want to do that but yeah it's a really it's a really interesting idea Ben. It'd be a nightmare to time. Oh my gosh yeah but it would be so powerful it kind of goes back to like the old it's a bit like not entirely it's like short course and then they got to pick so we used to do a drop down afternoon every week where kids would get to pick an an area of topic that was interesting to them and it reminds me of being at primary school you'd have that and you'd have like wait I'm gonna do cooking this time but it's a really interesting idea and it would be amazing and an ideal world to give them the opportunity to go I do want to be a doctor but I also love playing a musical instrument so I still want to do that too. I'd love a term just having to go at learning a musical instrument yeah and if I like it I want to continue learning a language I don't necessarily want to do it at GCSE but I still want to learn the language and it'd be good if I'm if I'm good enough at it to get some credits for that for my work that I've done there as well yeah well we're just redesigning maybe they need us on that curriculum review they started off talking about steam rather than stem and now we've redesigned the whole curriculum yeah but I think you're welcome ultimately we are behind David Trigley yeah but I'd like to I'd love to see more like a model yeah I'd love to go I'd love to visit a school that was doing it and see how they were doing it and so more research more research please Dave bring it out okay there we go so we will take a very short break and when we come back I say I always say we're very short break but all our breaks are the same link yeah because it's the same piece of music we will take the allocated time that the music requires before we then come back and talk about our item in the news very briefly before we end this episode so I'll see you in a moment in a minute welcome back so our topic in the news is something that I heard on the drive into work this morning they were talking about and it's actually from a survey conducted by Save the Children in 2022 but I it was on the radio and I thought it was interesting so the headline is only one in four children play out regularly on their street compared to almost three quarters of their grandparents generation well that's not surprising is it with the rise of technology sure so have another option when before you get started maybe some of us give you some of us statistics so as there's only one one in four children play out regularly on their street compared with their grandparent generation where almost three quarters said they played outside a few times a week children today have reported being told to stop making noise playing ball games and climbing trees when playing outside and parents say they fear irritating neighbors if their children play I think they're worried that they will irritate neighbors if their children play outside on the street so they're the stats and the reasons that were given from this survey right so here are my thoughts straight away well yes of course because technology has advanced so much that when you get the kids grandparents I guess are parents if they're the children's grandparents yeah we are right when when they were younger they'd have an option they had to go out and play because they had nothing else to do they didn't really even have I mean technology has has you know improved so rapidly that within one or two generations what you have to do in your spare times completely different so that's a reason obviously but I just I think it's obvious that there's a whole interesting statistic of like the map of where kids were allowed to be out we've seen that like our your grandparents were allowed to go at like eight years old walk like three miles down to somewhere else and then gradually the the radius in which we allow our children to be out it's much smaller because there's a different kind of culture of fear and concern isn't there for children I think that prohibits a lot of parents from letting their kids out to play doesn't it so the right and the I'm not on this article one the radio they were then talking about the how a lot of new houses that are built yeah a built with no gardens or very very small gardens so they're not even playing outside in the garden because there's no because there aren't gardens yes and although where we live I think that it's almost the design of the of the city living that there is always a park for like you know certain it's it's very very small I want to say it's less than a mile less than half a mile at all times away from it is something like that it might even be less than that whereas there are lots of developments in cities and towns where that isn't the case so parents if they do want to and they often do want to take the children to parks and green spaces they can't because it's too far or it's yes they have to travel a long way so there's there's that issue I think there is the thing about safety as well I think we're more a more frightened society yeah that's interesting isn't it so I wonder why that is maybe it's the advent of social media and media being more yeah available that we see everything that could possibly happen because when I was growing up it was when the lights come on you come back in yeah I just remember playing out all the time I would be out all day and then I'd come home I had a PlayStation as well you know I'd play a PlayStation 2 saying you're a Mewderyte yeah but you're out but it's different kind of thing isn't it because social media is sure more gaming on mobiles and things like that yeah and just talking to each other on that was you'd have to ring up your your mate's parents and say they do go and hang out in the park now off to school yeah but yeah but they'll often say to each other we're going out after this but not as many as but they but they go to the park to sit in the park and go on the phone sure but even then not as many as we know as used to as the as the server well I suppose when you get to teenage age you we probably did go out and just hang out in the park and not play but when you were younger you were able to you would play sure so what what are you saying so well on the on the on the radio they were then talking about what kind of a role the schools have to play have to play in we're not have to or could play right or what else we've got to do now improving children's playing yes well social learning it's the idea so they were talking about the idea of what what are what is the danger of of students well the danger of children not to play in outside as much as they used to and it's the idea was it's a massive decrease in social interaction it's that I mean for me it was things like time management I think I first learned to tell the time because You needed to know the time. I needed to know the time. I needed to know when it had to be home. Yeah. Exactly that. And I think that's kind of those sorts of things that you learn that you don't. Is that independence as a man? Yeah, that you take for granted. Like it is having your pocket money and walking to the shops with your mate and spending it there and knowing without your parents telling you, you're being able to do those things. As you said independently, you should, it is, I think when your parents first say you can go out on your own with your friends, it is that first step of independence of. Yeah. But you know, I'm growing up. And I suppose you're going to get to that point with my younger age playing outside, meeting up with friends, et cetera. So I think they were talking about what do you lose by children not playing outside? So therefore what can schools do to fill the gaps of children not playing outside? But I mean, my initial reaction was, so when I first had it on the radio this morning, I was like, yeah, no, we should be doing more to get children playing outside. We should make it safer for them. We should make it more, we should return it to being a norm again. But then when it turned to the schools bit, I then started getting angry thinking, well, we can't, it can't be down to us to fix everything. We just can't do it. We can't fix everything. I also think as part of the problem thinking about it, make it socially acceptable to allow your children to play out because I believe that there is a certain degree of judgment from other parents if you weren't to allow your 10-year-old out to just play out on their own. - And you weren't there. - 'Cause you look at them and people will go, oh, they just let them out whenever you want, just out there playing with this football, they don't care. Or what would you like them to do differently? You want them to, and I really do think there is that social stigma of that now. It's like you don't care about your kids, you just let them run them off where they are. - So I've remembered why, I remembered why the connection to schools was there as well. - Oh, okay. - So was that side of it? And then there was the fact that the decrease in playing outside has also coincided with, coincided with break times and lunch times - Beings short. - Being shortened in schools so that children have even fewer, even less time. - Yeah. - Socializing. - What tell us what to give then? - Well, it goes back to our previous conversation, doesn't it? - We pulled every which way, right? - All of our time is spent. - You need to give them more time on this because they need to get better outcomes. Do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do you also need to give them more social time and teach them how to play and how to apply for a mortgage, apparently. - Yeah, well, you know what's gonna end up happening with just lengthen the school day. - Lengthen the school day. - I say you get more time. (laughing) And the school term as well, Chris. - Oh, God, he's seeing that. - Oh, there'll be no, I just, I'd clap, I think. I wouldn't mind if they took time from the summer holidays and brought them into the half terms. - We spoke about that last time, wasn't we? - But I read a thing about the holidays, somebody saying, oh, well, we should shorten them. And the prices for holidays would be even greater for parents because you'd have a three week window as opposed to a six week window. So then it's even more competitive to get places. - Yeah. - And then even more expensive. - We won't rehash that conversation. - Oh, I'm just furious about it all now. - Yeah. So anyways. - So will you let Max play out? - It's a good question. So we are very fortunate that the house we're currently living in is a stone's throw away from a park. - So yeah. So when he gets to that age, because a minute he's only eight. So when he gets to that age. - But how about you and you were playing out? - On the street on my own, I was an eight. - What do you mean with friends though? - Yeah, with friends. I don't think I was eight. Me and my sister might have gone out. - I used to walk. - But my sister's two years older than me. - I used to walk. Oh, good. I mean, my road was my ice to walk probably three quarters of a mile to primary school from about the age of 10. - Yeah, so that's two years. So I would have been probably paid out on the street at eight with my sister who was two years older than me. She said, so that's probably what it is. - So where we live now currently, I wouldn't let it win out. It's a main road and it's not a nice, it's not a safe place to be. But if we lived in an area like you, - So you are one of the cities. - Right now, I put it right on her own. - And that's what they're saying. - But we live on a main road. And there are, there's nowhere that I have to. - Yeah, we have a back-border. - So she can play out there. - That counts as playing out. - Yeah, she does. - And I will move by the, I'll send her off by the max. - Yeah. So we got, yeah, so that's the news topic. And I just thought it was interesting. Because I was, I said, I was like, yeah, no, those children should play up more. And then it was like, so schools need to do more. I thought, what are we supposed to do? And again, it's one of those things that you just know, the onus on that is gonna fall onto primary schools, ultimately. - Yeah, do you know how I'm playing? - And, you know, those-- - But also make sure they can read and write and do much. - Exactly, primary school teachers are absolutely miracle workers anyway. So quite how they're then gonna fit all of this in as well. I don't know. But anyway, we've reached the end of our episode. We keep pushing the hour mark, Laura, every time. - We just put too much to send. - I know, we need to, we need to stop. - We need to be able to-- - We need to be able to-- - We need to be able to-- - So what we will do is, what will we do, Laura? - I don't know, stay tuned. - Oh, that's what I was going to say. - You're gonna tell me the book for next week. - I haven't decided the book for next week, so that'll be a big surprise. - Ooh, we better to wait, so we're gonna-- - Well, I've got one in mind, but it might be-- - We'll figure it out. - Yeah, we'll figure it out. - It's not in state for the listeners. - No, sorry. And, but please, as I said last week, if you are enjoying these episodes, then please do share with as many people as you can and let them know about lessons from the back row as well. And we shall see you next week. Bye. - Bye. (upbeat music)