Episode 8: Student Engagement

(upbeat music) Welcome to our podcast, Student Success Pod. I'm your host Stuart Norton and here we discuss the core thematic areas of student success. Please do remember to follow this series to make sure you stay up to date with new episodes and activity related to student success. Today we have three fabulous guests from across the sector. Talking to us about student engagement. I'm delighted to be joined by my co-host, Senior Consultant, Vick Stevenson, who I shall hand over to now to introduce our guest, Vick, over to you. - Thanks, Stuart, and welcome everybody. So we are joined today by our three colleagues from across the HE sector. We've got Tom Lowe, who is the principal lecturer and assistant's head of school at the University of Westminster and his work focuses on student experience. Tom's been involved in researching, designing and implementing initiatives aimed at supporting student engagement for over a decade in a number of UK universities. He's also advised higher education institutions internationally on a range of areas, including student voice, retention, employability and student partnership. Tom's also published two books on student engagement, both of which are available from reputable booksellers. So welcome to you, Tom. - Thank you, thank you for having me on the podcast. - Great, and the next guest is David Galani, who is the head of student engagement and advocacy at Middlesex University. And David's interest in student engagement and student voice dates back to his early career as a student union officer. David founded the Student Publication Association, which supports student journalists in the UK and Ireland, and he founded that in 2012. And he also leads the Association of Higher Education Professionals, Student Experience and Engagement Network. And that is a mouthful, but welcome to you, David. - Thanks for having me. - And our final guest today is Inca Hyde Wright, who is a Warwick graduate management trainee. And she is currently on placement at the student union at Warwick. Increase a recent graduate from Warwick and is the lead, the student lead, rather, on the University of Warwick's belonging project. She's contributed to a publication on co-creation and has also contributed to a number of student engagement initiatives with advanced HE, including being part of the student panel at the 2024 Teaching and Learning Conference and sharing her insights on her experience of assessment as a neurodiverse student, as part of our assessment and feedback symposium. So a warm welcome and a welcome back to you, Inca. - Thank you. It's great to be here. Thank you so much. - Listeners by now will be familiar that the first thing we do is to discover whether our guests are dunkers and what their favorite biscuit is. Listeners new to the series. This is the famous Edu Biscuit section of the podcast. So while today is serving up fresh takes and crunching insights on student engagement and higher education and talking about what it really means to connect, involve and spa, it wouldn't be the podcast it is today without our biscuit fact to get us started. And of course, finding out our guest's favorite biscuit and if they're a dunker or not. Regular listeners will know that the chocolate hobnob remains the academic's favorite, at least of our guests. But in a recent, extremely unscientific but heartfelt student poll, the most popular biscuit was the chocolate digestive with a hobnob actually coming in fifth place. I'll leave that fact there, but perhaps we're a reminder to all academics and professional service staff listening to have a pack of both in the office drawers. Regardless, both of these are easy to dunk and seemingly hard to hate, just like a well-designed seminar. So stick with us whilst we explore what true engagement tastes like and no crumbs are left behind. Now I do have an apology to make to my co-host to Vic because I had monished Vic last time when she gave her Kit Kat as her favorite biscuit because the Kit Kat is indeed a biscuit although I do still find them in the chocolate aisle rather than the biscuit aisle. So Vic's a heart-out apology for calling you out in the last podcast incorrectly. I did, so it was 90% wafer. There's no problem with the chocolate biscuit. But then you really did make me doubt myself. Well, I'm going to come back to you, Vic, so I'm going to push you for a second favorite as you're back on the floor, but Vic start us off, why not? Okay, so obviously a second to the Myty Kit Kat, I recently rediscovered the V&E's biscuits, which I don't know if I hadn't seen it for years and my son came back from school with a packet and they are the ones that are like two oblongs of shortbread with a kind of chocolate little bit in the middle. And I don't think I'd had one for about 35 years. And it took me back and I thought that instantly I thought that is my biscuit of choice for this particular podcast. There you go, and can I ask, did you dunk it? I didn't, no. I don't know that shortbread has got any place in tea. I don't know. Tom, I'm going to come to you next. Your favorite biscuit and are you a dunker? Thanks so much to it. I was not prepared at all for this conversation. I hadn't heard this part of the podcast. However, I was definitely going to say the chocolate hobnob that is definitely the best biscuit because it's durable and of course you want anything with chocolate on top. And I'm definitely not a donker though. I don't even need a plate. The biscuit's gone before I even got back to my desk. So I'm very impatient. So I don't mess around with it all. Perfect, thank you very much Tom. Inca, can I come to you next please? The other kind of thinking it would have been interesting to do this podcast when I was a student last year 'cause I'm like, would I have chosen Digestive? 'Cause now I'm thinking hobnob. So I'm like, what's changed in the year? But yeah, I'm also with the chocolate hobnob. But I think the tackling in Tom's problem is you have two biscuits, so you can eat one on the way to then wherever you're going. Love it. I also see the differences I do like to dunk it. Yeah, that's fantastic. Let's be honest. Everybody, when they open their biscuits out, they get one from the top, eat it there and then grab their ones for their plate. Yeah. It's the journey biscuit, the journey biscuit. I'm just pausing, I'm thinking, if only I could just take two from the packet, that's probably where I'm going wrong. It's certainly more than two. But when we swiftly on David, are you a dunker? And what is your favourite biscuit? Oh, if you thought Bix contribution of the Kit Kat was controversial, I'm afraid I need to push the boundaries for us today because I don't really do sweet treats. I'm a savory kind of person. So I've been pondering what does the savory alternative look like for a second, I think it's fine to be like. And the closest I come up with, and I didn't think you were going to be happy with either of these, the cheese twist, dunking, not in a tea that'd be weird, but maybe in some hummus or some sort of-- [LAUGHTER] Here we go. Yeah, he's throwing it. Or even some pushing boundaries now, aren't we? Could we agree that pretzels are basically at heart a biscuit? I think we could maybe have a discussion. OK, yeah. I think the pretzel, we can open that one up. The cheese twist, I think, might have to draw the line. I mean, hummus still is a liquid because it forms the shape of the shape it's important. It is, and I don't think any of this security. Does it replace a tea break? I don't want a brew. I'll have a pot of hummus and cheese sticks and said. I think that's quite drying, actually. Yeah. You need a lot of tea to wash that down. Well, I honestly thought we were never going to get any more controversial than the jaffa cake for an episode one, but here we have the cheese twist and hummus. And I think, on that note, it's probably time that we talk about student success. Today, we're here talking about student engagement. And we typically like to start with a definition. So I think a round robin is an order. And if we could ask you to sum it up, what does it mean to you? What does it mean to you in your context? David, I'm going to ask you to kick us off. Yeah, sure. The one where that comes to mind for me, when I'm thinking of student engagement, is motivation. It's understanding why students at university, what they want to get out of the time at university. It's about the ways in which that is intrinsic. The pleasure they get, just from the process of participating in their learning, and how there's also various bits of extrinsic motivation, kind of the value they're placing on the degree, the value they're placing on what they're going to get at the end of the journey. I think the better we can understand students' motivations, the better we're going to get chance to make sure that their aspirations for engaging are matching up with what we're trying to get out of them as people supporting students. Fantastic, yes. I like that. Tom. So this is a really interesting question to fit it into one word. But the word I'm going to go for is relevance. And not that that defines student engagement, but that is the word that's coming up again and again and again, when we're holding discussions around getting people and those people are students to engage with something, which is the university. And we're in a world that's full of communications, full of ways we can engage with things on our smartphone for our devices. Everything is well as trying to engage with us. And therefore we choose what to engage with, based on what's most relevant to us in that busy space. So relevance, I'll probably come back to that later on as well. I like it. I like it. Yeah, it's a really important way to start thinking about things at Inca. The word that I thought about was power, because I thought about how powerful it can be when you feel like you can or you're encouraged to or you're unable to be engaged as a student, but also how powerful it can be when students disengage. So yeah, that was kind of the word that jumped to mind. It's nice also to hear the different words because I can understand why you said each of them. And I guess it just shows just how multifaceted it is in that there isn't just one way of supporting student engagement. But yeah, so I kind of thought of power. OK, and Vick, you're not going to escape. What did you come up with? So I really struggled because I sort of came up with the sort of image of what I thought engagement looked like rather than really being able to kind of pin down a word. And when I was trying to think of a word, I realized I was actually coming up with synonyms for engagement participation and that just is a synonym. So I think I would like to frame it as kind of what I think it isn't. And that, because to me, there's a very clear word which is attendance. And I think for me, yeah, I find it easier to define an engagement by what it's not because it can be lots and lots of different things. But to me, it's not about attendance, which is kind of an issue, I think, I've come across where you're looking at initiatives. And there's lots of things, but it's measured by, did people turn up? Kind of are people there? And there's that kind of that sense of driving students back on to campus. And if they're on campus, then they're engaged. And I just, I think that's possibly problematic. So an opposite answer to your question, which is a great start. So the question, well, I'd like to kind of really pick up on that point around attendance and whether or not, when we talk about engagement, it obviously means lots of different things to students, to staff, to institutions, and to them individually. And but institutions are really keen to capture student engagement as a kind of measured metric. And I'm interested to see whether you all think measuring engagement is a possible and be a worthwhile endeavor. I don't know who wants to go to that first. I'll go to Tom, because he is nodding. Thank you. So there's lots of ways that we can judge whether a student is engaged or not. And some of those are where when we're physically in the room and some of those are digitally. So there's different categories of student engagement. And the one you've referred to there is attendance, which is probably the most commonly used and most historically used measure of engagement. Of whether a student is engaged or not. And then we make judgments off the back of that measure of engagement of whether they're more likely to succeed or not. So for example, the child in school, if they turn up each week, the school is reassured that they're doing OK. And if they stop turning up, the parents going to telephone call or the child gets in trouble or so, because there's a legal requirement to be in school. So therefore, we take that as a standing to university, even though there's a move from students to pre-18 education in the UK, you legally have to be there without, or you have to apply not to be there for homeschooling. And then all of a sudden, the students go to laissez-faire education, which is completely voluntary, where students can pick and choose what they want to engage with, unless they're an international student. But we inherit those worries or those, let's say, stereotypes or biases towards, if you're in the room, you must be engaged because you're in the room. And therefore, you're more likely to succeed. However, as human beings, we've all been in-- or as professionals on the call, we've all been in meetings where we might have been in the room, but it doesn't mean we're engaged. And also, even if we're actively listening, so we've all been in the room, too, where we've been nodding that yes. I'm very clearly listening. But it doesn't mean we're necessarily engaged. So there's other areas of engagement that aren't just behavioral. And I guess the attendance one is based on present years. So I'll just quickly say, we can talk about engagement, yes, in regards to behavioral, which is whether you're coming to campus, whether you're going in the library, whether you're attending class. We can also look at behavioral in regards to digital engagement. So that's where the students are clicking, downloading, where the students are submitting their assessment. There's perhaps other ways we talk about engagement, too, which are just as important. And I perhaps would challenge listeners and those on call to say, how do you behavioral is perhaps only a third or 25% of the cake of engagement? There's other areas, too, such as emotion engagement. That's how students feel or the invested or not. Do they feel like they belong or not? Do they feel like they're the opposite of those things? Do they feel alienated or that they don't belong or they're unhappy? Then there's cognitive engagement. So how much students learn? And whether they understand the learning outcomes, we do measure that for assessment, but not always. And then finally, we talk about student engagement a lot in the UK in regards to student voice. So I think by highlighting how many ways we can assess whether a student is engaged or not, all the ways we're talking about engagement, attendance is perhaps the easiest one to measure. Because we've traditionally always measured it. And perhaps it's an easy go, too, because you think, well, that's where the learning takes place in the class. But these days, learning and knowledge happens in all different spaces. So I'll stop now. I'm keen to see what income David thinks. Yeah, thank you, Tom. Some really interesting points there around international students and requirements and expectations for them as opposed to home students and the different types of engagement. Absolutely. And in terms of measuring them, I think the critical issue I have is that some of the student engagement initiatives that their success is measured by data people, join them. Did they-- and I feel like that's, as you said, only part of the picture. Because people can turn up, do the breakfast club leave. It doesn't mean they've learned that that's kind of developed their sense of belonging or anything else. So I think it's-- yeah, it's a really interesting one. I'll pass over to Inca there to see what you think about in your experience. How do you find the institutions are very keen to see it as, like, yes, we've cracked engagement because we got x number of students to join this or am I oversimplifying? No, I think it's really interesting. And also, Tom, when you were talking about digital engagement digitally, I got flashbacks of doing seminars in COVID and online and no one had their cameras on. So, you know, and that could be that they're disengaged. But actually, it might just be they're engaging in a different way. I know that during COVID, I had to have my camera on to keep myself engaged because it was like that accountability that someone can see whether I'm doing something else otherwise. If I had my camera off, I would be doing something else because I would just-- I wouldn't have that accountability. So straight away, I was like, oh, my word. Yeah, bring back those memories. But I think also, I think what I find really interesting is, yeah, OK, we can measure it in terms of attendance or participation, but it's like, why? Why have they engaged or why haven't they engaged? And I think so often when students haven't engaged, people say, oh, we must put on something else. And it's like, no, actually, maybe look at what you are doing. Why some of it else? Because actually, if you're just putting on more and more and more, it's only enough. Students are just going to get more and more overwhelmed. It's kind of like Kong's channels. It's like, oh, right, let's try and access them this way and this way and this way. And it's like, hang on. Maybe think about toning it down a little bit because there is such a thing as overwhelm. And also, that's even more work for staff. So I do think it's possible to measure it at student engagement, but I think it also touches upon saying that has been said earlier in terms of, I guess, it's what category of engagement, what you're specifically looking for, why you measuring it, how are you measuring it, and what's that going to be used for? Don't just measure it for the sake of measuring it, use it for a purpose. And also just don't rely on numbers. Have a conversation with your students. If you're trying to reach those that aren't engaged, still chat to the ones who are engaged and see if they know why maybe some people might not be turning up or try and go to them. If you know that I'll actually, what they tend to use this space more, go to that space. Don't necessarily expect them to come to you, especially if there are part-time students. It might be that what they do come to campus or they come online to do the seminar than they leave. So making the most of that time, making the most of the time that you do have them with. Yeah, those are kind of my thoughts as people were talking. But yeah, I find it very interesting topic because I think also it's, I know the times when I haven't engaged and why. And it's not an essay because I haven't wanted to. It's been because I haven't felt included or it's been, I remember, before I knew I was dyslexic, they would give a set like reading in the seminar. And well, I couldn't read fast enough, never mind digest the information quick enough. So therefore, I couldn't engage how I wanted to. And luckily, I was able to actually speak like raise it a student staff liaison committee and say, please, can we have this beforehand? And then they changed it, which was lovely and great. But if I hadn't been a student who felt able to do that, you know, you're gonna have a lot of people not engaging when actually they really want to. So yeah, lots to talk about, sorry. Yes, absolutely, and there's some great points I want to come back to around engagement. We've looked at the thought about engagement and attendance, but I think engagement and belonging, as you just mentioned, part-time students there and kind of does the thing you're engaging mean that they belong, do they want to belong? Is it, you know, there's lots that we can pull apart there. But I'll come to David on that, the original question, which I hope you can repent, but (laughs) - I can't, just about that. But I think we also might even lead us potentially into that connection between belonging and engagement. Even better. - So to go back to the original question, is it possible to measure engagement? No, is it worthwhile? Yes. So I think any attempt for us to really measure engagement will always just capture proxies. And the thing, as Tom said, you'll get things which are easy to measure. And therefore, the biggest risk is that we think we've got the whole answer when really we've just got a piece of the puzzle. So I think there's something about recognising that and therefore not resting on our laurels, but seeing it as something as a continuous improvement of understanding what the experience is really like for students. But I do still think it's worthwhile. I know that when we've done analysis of just attendance, like not even looking at other engagement touch points like the digital usage of our virtual learning environment or the student app or students taking out library resources, but even if you just look at attendance, there is a very strong correlation between student attendance and those who've progressed through their years of study. And that, I think, is something which is, therefore, a good reason that it's worth looking at that data, not as an endpoint of the student's good, the student's bad. But as Inca said, you know, asking the questions once you've got that data, what are the conversations that you can start with the students you aren't intending to work out why that is? And, you know, the research that comes out shows that there are a myriad of reasons why different students will choose to spend their valuable time in other ways than going to a particular session they've got on their timetable. But I think, at least if you can start to work out who to ask those questions to, you get a better chance to be able to do things about it both in terms of the big structural changes, some modules which have just been set up on a way where the content of the material to just complete isn't as engaging as students as finding on other modules to individual delivery of sessions, to just personal things that are going on in one student's life, which means that it just had more important things to prioritize at that point in time. So, I think it is still really valuable, but kind of as, I think both time I think, we have seven different ways. It's an easy starting point. So we've got to keep that in mind as well as it can lead to in terms of helpful conversations. But I know that from our context and middle-sex university, there are plenty of ways to then have valuable conversations based on that data. And it's about being able to then help focus and target those personalized interventions which are either had through academic advisors or, in some cases, peer-to-peer work or other professional services staff, hopefully in a way where they're able to, you know, know how to start the conversation a bit better than just knowing you've got this many tens of thousands of students in the overall population support all of them equally. So I think it is helpful as an initial guiding tool. Can I just come in there, David? She says I wish really resonated with me, which was in terms of students having to prioritize different things, you know, what's important to them at that time. And I think this ties into our next question really, which is, there is no single student. We know that a range of students have a huge amount of responsibilities whether that is working, you know, one, two, three, four jobs, whether that's care and responsibilities, whether it's a home student or someone that's commuting and traveling. And there's so much that kind of wraps up into that. Alongside that we have part-time students, full-time students, distance learning, hybrid, high-flex, all these different variations. So what you see is the opportunities and challenges around student engagement. As you say, you've got 10,000 students. It's not the same for everyone, but we do have all those different pockets within that. So where do our listeners go? For me, I think that the challenges is to not see that being something problematic about, on the one hand, appreciating the widening participation efforts of higher education in the fact that we have more diverse populations. And on the other hand, still recognising that community's only work, if there's some form of shared values or complementary characteristics, we've got to do something to be able to say, yes, in this particular module or program, we have a wider variety and diversity of students than we've ever had before. And that's brilliant for the benefits that brings. But at the same time, if we don't talk with students about some form of shared expectations of what it means to contribute to this learning community, then I do think things start to fall apart. When we were doing some research around student belonging and student engagement, one of the things that came through as a theme in some of the comments from students was how disappointing it was when they were still turning up and engaging, but they noticed other peers stopping engaging. It kind of devalued their own worth of putting in that time and effort in men at the when they did go along to classes. There wasn't that same rich discussion with lots of students contributing. So I think there is something about the social contract, perhaps, if you want to call it that. Communicating with students, what we're expecting of them, recognising that everyone is going to have a different set of barriers, which means it's not the same for everyone. The ability for a student who lives in halls of accommodation just off campus, who was well-supported by their family financially, so they don't have to work at part-time job, we know basically a full-time job in terms of the hours they do it for. Versus a student who is doing that part-time work and commuting a long way. The challenge to say to both of them, we expect you to turn up for classes and contribute is very different, and so we do have to be able to recognize that, but my fear is that as a sector, we pull away from having those conversations with students and putting the, I suppose, what is the expectation? What's the responsibility that we're giving to students? If we don't have the conversation, my fear is that we'll just leave it to each student to work it out for themselves, and that's where you want to use that social connection. - Well, yeah, we'll come to Tom, because I was going to make a point around the earlier point Tom made around international students and the requirements for them are different, and that can lead to, as you say, if they turn up to an empty room, that's not the student experience that they have come into the country to experience. So, sorry, I'll pass over to Tom, so they're looking to pick up. - And I know topics we're going to get later on to what has changed with higher education. And I think I really like David's point and Stuart, what you've said around, there's not one kind of student. It's so easy for policymakers or even staff to homogenize students, like they're all one kind of individual or being, and they all behave in the same way. Essentially, when you look in England, for example, 45% plus or 49% plus students going on to higher education, this is just half the 18-year-old population. They are not all the same person. They're just as diverse as wider population. We would never say all 50-year-olds in the country behave the same or the same individual. No, they're not. So, we are really guilty of homogenizing this whole group of students and assuming they're up to the same kind of activities and they engage in a certain way. For example, there is still a really historic perception that stands in universities where staff will say, students aren't turning up, they're all lazy or students aren't turning up, they're all working. They're probably more the latter in terms of their more of those students are working. Actually, these are human beings and people behaving in ways in a hyper-engaged society where there's so many things pulling on their time. And as the Advantage research has recently highlighted in the student experience survey, or the academic experience survey, those students are working more and more. So, we do know that from big studies. I think the opportunities are we've really got to do what David said and look really hard at ourselves as universities as well. Because if us, and so the National Studies looking at prospective students have said, would you prefer an online education or an in-person education? And those National Studies, I think I've seen about five different ones have all come back saying, students want an in-person education called tick. Students are coming in, huge numbers to university still tick. So, we're doing something right. So, students are coming, but then what's happening by October and November time, student attendance is going down and down. And actually, that negative of one student on turning up then another starts to catalyze because the point David said is right, I've come to class and no one else is here, so I'm not going to bother coming next week either. So, this is really urgent, actually, that we look at what are these engagement preferences changing, because you're right, International Students Vicar in this picture. But they're told, legally, if you don't attend, you're going to risk your visa status. So, I think we've got to have a really hard look at ourselves of what we're asking students to come in for. And if it's still relevant, so often the language can be, how can we support students more, how can we ensure our timetable is better for students, how can we make sure students are motivated to engage. Sometimes we've got to flip it and say, well, what are we asking students to engage with? So, I don't like saying our students are consumers, but they are engaged and it's got to be relevant and worth their time. So, I think it's quite interesting to say, well, actually, well, students aren't engaging, well, how can we get them to engage more? Actually, what are we trying to engage students with? And is this even deemed relevant or worth their time? Or are we being engaging enough to engage students? So, I think it's tricky. Assuming that we are, and just to come to David's point, and I'd like to ask Inca, the point you made there around some kind of social contract, you know, you've signed up, you've agreed to be a student, you've been granted a place. Do you think that would be a viable thing? And how would you feel about something like that, Inca? Do you think it would help sort of clarify expectations and requirements across the board or do you think some would respond, you know, quite, quite fiercely in the opposite direction, as Tom said bearing in mind, they are consumers and kind of being told to do something as if it's a school environment. It's a really challenging balance to find. So, I'm just interested in your perspective, Inca. Yeah, I think, so I remember sitting next, like in first year, so 2019 thinking, sitting at a lecture, I'd hear maybe someone going next to me going, "Oh, I'm not interested in this." And straight away, I'd kind of think, "Oh, I was interested, but I wasn't not interested." And so, definitely being influenced by other people around me, or, you know, say, someone's having a snooze in the corner, it's like, "Oh, okay." But then I think that's why almost I'm freeing about COVID, was I didn't, I was literally not sat next to anyone. So, I was like, "Actually, you know what, I'm just going to be interested in what I'm interested in." And I realized that's only my experience, so don't, you know, generalize, obviously. But, I found that really freeing. And I think also with being diagnosed with dyslexia, I was like, "Oh, you know what, I can pause things, I can rewind, I can make proper notes and take time to digest information at my own pace." So, that enabled me to engage a lot more there, and the equally, maybe panic a lot, when we went back to face-to-face, 'cause, like, "Oh, my goodness, I've faced my whole degree online, how am I going to cope with in-person lectures?" But then that's where, like, having things in advance really, really helps. I could look at the lecture slides, and then just during, I can just make quick notes, and it means that I can still engage. But I think then, for my masters, you know, it's very, very fortunate that I got the Warwick taught scholarship scheme, which meant that my tuition fees were covered. Otherwise, there's no way ever I'd be able to do a masters. So, it's very fortunate in that regard. But, at the time, the reason why I got that scholarship is because I've ticked a huge number of wine participation boxes. So, I was a commuting student. I was a disabled student. I had caring responsibilities. So, I had a lot of things. And I think the thing is, I knew going into my masters, that my masters, I wanted to see make the most of it, it wasn't a priority. And the nicest sense, you know, caring for my caring responsibilities were my priority. And I remember, I tried to kind of hide the fact that I had really heavy caring responsibilities. I'd come onto campus, I'd do my seminars, and I'd go home. And I'd do my uni work around what I needed to do at home. And the adaptment of the weekends and all those kind of things, which, fine, I did what I needed to do. But I remember later on when I was working on my dissertation. And so, one of the teaching staff, I'd just been really frank. Finally, being really frank and just saying, in all honesty, this isn't my top priority. And they were kind of, they were a little bit concerned by that, like, oh, but, you know, but you want to make the most of it. I think, no, I will make the most of it. I am making the most of it. It's just these are my priorities, and that's okay. And, you know, it might be that, oh, okay, I don't necessarily get the top marks in everything, but you know what, I'm going to make the most of the experience. And so, I think, and that looks different for everyone. And I think what makes me sad is when people want to engage, but there's so many kind of systemic or structural barriers, or social barriers that mean that they can't engage, and they're really wanting to, but because they're hitting that wall after wall after wall, then they just kind of give up, and that makes me sad, because I think, like, with some of the blind work that I've been doing, it's like, right, okay, we've done loads of work in terms of practice, which has been fantastic, but it's like, right, let's all, like, let's keep supporting the practice element, but let's also really look at those underlying structural issues, because we can do all the practice in the world, but if we're ignoring the other things, we're not going to make those lasting changes, we don't want to keep slapping classes on things. So, yeah, I think I've definitely gone off on a tangent, but I think it's just such a complex beast that is student engagement, and I guess one of the things that I think is a massive opportunity with how students are accessing resources, accessing their education is the opportunity to learn. Students have an opportunity to learn, staff have an opportunity to learn, to adapt, to try new approaches, new technology, develop new resources, work with a more diverse audience. I mean, I find that really exciting, so it's like, oh, you get to hear all these different perspectives, all these different experiences that I have, I don't know about, but it means that I get to grow as well as, and they get to grow, but yeah, I think, different priorities is a challenge, but only maybe a big challenge when it's not spoken about. Do you think of the use of a pre-arrival questionnaire? Well, you know, there is a lot of work around kind of the pre-arrival questionnaire that came out of the University of East London and Michelle Morgan, and that work. Do you think that gives valuable insights, or I'm just wondering if kind of institutions have kind of established approaches and initiatives and ways of working, that maybe it needs to be constantly adapting based on, kind of what information you're getting about, who you're coming in, who you have coming in, because it can be quite difficult to put these things in place while you've got a cohort going on, you know? Sorry, Tom, you wanted to. Absolutely. Any information. The more information we have on our students coming in in regards to their motivations, as David started talking out, I'm talking about, as Inca's just talking around, in regards to what Willing's students are willing to share about their personal lives, is all really empowering. And I think that information shouldn't just be at the top university management committee. If appropriate, and obviously if people have signed the right disclosures to have that shared, that information is really powerful for an educator. So if you're an educator in the room, and you know what kind of students you have in front of you, not to make negative stereotypes, but to make empowering stereotypes that can say, "Well, I know, for example, I have X amount of students who are commuters, or I know that I have certain students of certain learning needs in my room, or I know the motivation." So one of the prior pre-enrollment study questions are often asked as part of career services, why have you taught, why have you picked this degree, or what do you want to do with your degree? So the more we know in beforehand, we'll make as far more empathetic educators, because we'll be essentially pitching to the audience. So I would say absolutely yes, but write down to the lecturer level. So we know who is in the room, because historically in universities we've done so much after-experience feedback, so we do end-of-experience evaluations like the NSS, or end-of-module evaluations, which are helpful, but I find they're more moving towards performance evaluation of staff, actually, or module success evaluations, as opposed to improving learning. And so I think absolutely anything we can do, but not just pre-arrival, that information, if we can have that. And I'm saying that a lot to staff when I talk to staff about belonging is get to know your students. I mean, we say that anyway for relationship building and rapport building. But when you understand who you're speaking with, who you're educating to, the more you know the better, and you can build your rapport up, yes. And be more engaging, be more engaging. Yeah. And sharing it with students, as you're saying, you're kind of making sure that students who complete that pre-arrival survey, then get to know that actually 40% of this cohort are working or are commuting. So they kind of see, and that's why we've designed it in this way, so that we can accommodate this. So maybe it's sort of the transparency there, but also, you know, it goes a long way to building community when students don't sit there thinking, "I'm the only one who's in this particular situation." So. I think my worry with that is I can see the power of it, but my worry is that people are like, "Right, okay, I've got the information at the beginning, therefore that's me set." And it's like, you've got to leave room for emergence, because there are going to constantly be students who find out, you know, they're going through a diagnosis process, or, you know, they find out during that module, or that year, or whatever, or, you know, something awful happens, and they suddenly become a carer, or, or. Yeah, so I think I can see the power of it, but it's also leaving room for emergence, and understanding that you still don't know everything, and being open to that, and I think also it does so heavily depend on the staff and how they interpret that information, and you're not always going to have empathetic educators, you're not. So I think it is being careful with that information, like, yeah. And you know, you said being sensitive with it, and it's not only if people disclose, which obviously is massively important, but I think, yeah, it's. I guess some of it also comes down to how psychologically safe are we making the learning environments as well, because, yeah, because then if we are creating those spaces, in terms of, you know, each learning space is a space where you can come up to the lecturer, or have it all contact them afterwards, and say, "Hey, I'm really struggling with this." Yeah, so I guess creating space for that emergence, yeah. You're absolutely right, Inca, and it's so dependent on the individual. And when I talk about student voice, I say student voice doesn't start survey, or the student representative, it starts with the ability for a student to come up to you and talk to you. This is so much easier in school, or in the workplace, because in school, you have one teacher, let's say, primary school, for a whole year, so you can really build up rapport and support because you have so much contact time. And then in the workplace, you have one line manager, so it's easier, because you've got that consistent university, you might be exposed to eight plus academics in one semester. So it's really hard to build that up. And absolutely, all of these recommendations we're making, we have to do it scale. So myself, David and Inca, or university staff members who really care about student engagement, I hope we do a good job, but we've got to expand that over thousands of staff at our university. So that's also a challenge. It's not just the scale of students, it's just going to staff we're working with too. So I'll come to David, because I know you wanted to come in there. If you can sort of elaborate a bit on how can we support staff then? Because we know that this is critical. It's that it's in the top five things that students care about. And we know it has a massive impact on student centre belonging and the importance of that on student experience and outcomes. But exactly to your point where you've got huge numbers of staff who are working under various conditions and the various contracts, some of them apart times, some are working for multiple institutions. How can we support staff in forming these kind of positive, supportive connections with students? David, welcome to you. Yeah, I mean, as the following sort of the previous conversation, I think free arrival question is a great enabler for that. I think from our experience at least, if you're asking students to fill out a free arrival questionnaire at that point, that is a point they are very highly engaged. You know, we get 70 plus percent response rates for our pre-erival questionnaire, which you don't get for questionnaires later in the students journey, necessarily. Obviously, what's then really important is that you're showing this unit that that first investment of their time was useful. So, and that doesn't have to take a lot of staff time, necessarily. Like, obviously, the presenting of that data takes a bit of time to build up whether it's the right dashboard or how you present that data to programme staff. But we've set up automated action plans that can go to students so, based on how they fill out the survey, they've got questions where they're saying, "Oh, actually, I would like to get more information about how I can find a part-time job while I'm studying." Or, actually, yes, I would like to get involved in student-study and society, you know, whatever it might be, tailoring that in an automated way. You know, it doesn't take the most expensive system to be able to do something like that where students are getting some immediate evidence that the time they invested in that survey is worthwhile. They're getting something useful for it. I think that is kind of really, really important because the worst thing we could do is, which I think, unfortunately, this happened a bit in the sector, is we see gathering student voices something which has to be done through, like, originally, very long academic-y survey, which takes a long time to fill out, which then gets amalgamised in terms of what was the top themes that came out of it across the whole student population, which take a long time to be worked through. And it means that individual students just don't really see the value of their time they committed. I think the more we can challenge ourselves around how much we're asking of students in those processes in those surveys, and kind of almost trimming out bits to just ask the questions we can really do something about in terms of evidencing what they're giving us, and then dialing up the actual action that takes place after they fill out those questionnaires is really, really important. So, yeah, automated action plans is a good way to start with that, and that's something which can be done in scale. You know, that doesn't take each individual staff member going through that data and responding. The other thing I suppose then going back to the question, which I think was the specifically one you asked me to come to. Around support, yeah, support how we actually, you know, support. So, it's tough, I've got that information, but not all of them will do anything with it. So, how do we, you know, how can we support staff in making sure that they have the information, they know what to do with it, and that they are, you know, feeding back to students and making, you know, as you say, showing that there is value in them, giving their voice. You know, because otherwise lots of other initiatives may kind of fall by the wayside, if the kind of messages we ask you to give us all this information and we do very little with it. So, how can we support staff? Yeah, absolutely. So, for me, I think there's something about trying to demystify big concepts like engagement or belonging has been, you know, the one we talked about earlier in the session has obviously been a huge buzzword in the sector over the last few years. I think there is something which we have a responsibility for in taking some of the scaryness out of it being such a big multi-faceted, multi-dimensional, dynamic, individualised concept, and just breaking it down to some very practical things that we can all do in any interaction that we have with students. And challenging the idea that we present things like belonging to our professional services, academic staff, students that perform part-time work to support the student community, and yeah, move away from the idea of the complicatedness of it and to practical, tangible things we can do to make people feel like they matter when they are showing up so that they feel like it was worth it. And the main things that come through for me over and over again, when students talk about this, are things about being accessible, having ways for students to communicate with you, to ask questions, and to then respond when they ask those questions, you know, to reply to the emails, basic stuff like that. It's valuing the voices the students have, so it's being able to appreciate when students do make contributions. You take the time to thank them for that and say, "Okay, well, I'll get back to you later this week on that point, I need to lift that up." And it's care, it's having high expectations for students to expect stuff from them, and to show that we care about their goals, kind of their motivations to studying. I think there's actually something really assuring we could say to staff, which is at least in the research I've seen, students have a very sensible understanding of the things which are outside of individual staff members control. Students don't tend to blame staff for things like strikes when they don't get to see a staff member for a lecturer, or when they're going to just come to the natural end of a semester, and the fact that they won't be able to necessarily have as much contact time with one staff member who they built up affinity with. They talk about those changes as sad moments, you know, I've built up a really good relationship with this staff member. I loved having them as my tutor for this, it's a shame I wouldn't have them for next semester. But they understand that's not something in that individual staff members control. They even in some of the research I've seen understand that when some classes have a very high number of students compared to some sessions which are much smaller, it's not going to be necessarily possible for a staff member to know every individual students name in a huge lecture, but they really appreciate it in the modules where there are those smaller numbers. So I think there's something reassuring about helping staff to understand you don't have to take responsibility for these systemic things outside of your control all of the time, just focus on the bits you do have control over, which is valuing students' contributions, showing care for their goals and being accessible to their questions when they want to ask stuff. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that, I don't think at least. Yeah, Tom, do you agree, Enkel? Doesn't need to be more complicated than that, I think that that. No, I think the point of care is really, really important. So I think we want staff who's heart is in their education or staff who want to teach. I think it's a brave conversation for us to have as academic managers that actually, you know, this is part of the gig as being an academic and higher education. And it still is, we're on a still on a journey there in university sectors and I go and speak on student engagement in other nations where maybe they're not a student centred as a university sector. And there is a lot of separate the week from the shaft and students drop out and that's fine, students fail because they're not good enough, you know. In the UK, we're not allowed to practice in that sense where we just let people drop out and if they can't hack it in our rigid way, then they're not good enough. Actually, that's not okay, you know, we've had a good 20, 30 years of looking at accessibility, celebrating diversity and looking at learning and teaching and good assessment feedback. However, there is still in some perhaps more research-oriented universities or research-oriented teams or research-oriented individuals where they don't see this as a priority of their role. So again, I think there's more work that's needed and maybe that's less work for the educating or so the educators on who are listening but it's actually the academic managers who are listening to have brave conversations and saying this is actually a huge portion of your job. For many of us, it's the priority of our job and actually it's the reason we are there in our role. So actually, if we aren't going to put the effort in to being engaging and I get it that is harder and harder to be engaging in this very noisy world, but we do need to care about our students. And so the practices are as simple as David highlights, but ensuring people are motivated for that and that we have a culture that's just as focused on student success, students learning graduate outcomes. As much as REF is easier said than done in some contexts. I'm sure some listeners will be thinking, "Okay, I get it, but in this context, I've got staff that I'm moving very slowly and this is a tricky context." Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I think possibly contributing to that, we've got academics who have come through the higher education system decades ago where it was more akin to the situation you were talking about. You did an assessment, you didn't get feedback. There was no conversation with an academic. There was no questioning, there was no follow-up or having an informal conversation. It was office hours and you better have a very good reason for going and so a shift in mindset there that that's not what higher education looks like today. Yes, and it does differ nation by nation, and I'm not stereotyping of a nation's higher education system. I get asked a lot, "Why is there so much work going on in the UK relating to student engagement?" It's because we're in a phenomenally pressured sector. We're pressured by tuition fees, pressured by funding challenges pressured by student outcomes, B3, in England, competition, all of the pressures, if you want to improve learning, close awarding gaps, improve belonging, satisfaction, all centres on, we've got to make higher education engaging. That's why we're focusing so much on it. I think I would hazard a guess that majority of nations out in the world do not have a higher education sector that's as pressured as ours. Now, the good thing of that is loads of good practices happened off the back of that, but it's interesting, right? I think it's a really interesting point. So there's colleagues who may have been to perhaps institutions where engagement was less of a focus, or they may have been educated in a less pressured higher education system, where they may have seen those practices where you don't need to care about students too much. So they feel they're doing nothing wrong. But actually, I think our sector is something we should really celebrate that's come out of that pressure that we've got to be, that we should be celebrating, saying, "Well, this is part of what it is like to work in our sector, and that is being student-centered." Yeah. I think, sorry Stuart, did you want to come in? I was just going to ask the next question around given that we are under that, it is a huge priority, is it? It is an emphasis enough, because as it should be, are you aware of, maybe you can either take it as, do you think there are initiatives and approaches that are being kind of tried out, that are kind of not really, that just don't really work, or are there areas within your own institutions that you think, you know, this is making a really positive impact, and this actually, this is what we should all be doing. Kind of, because I know there are, there's a lot of kind of people trying out lots of different things, and they try it for a term, or a semester, and then they go, "Oh, that didn't work, they tried something else." Kind of, it is a real challenge, because everyone's trying to find the, you know, like a solution, when perhaps there isn't one, but if there's anything you can share of, if your own institution, what really, what works, or doesn't, so nobody else replicates it. Sure. Well, I'm happy to say, I've got, go ahead, can you go first, please. I was just going to say, drawing upon what people have said, and actually, David, what you said speaks a lot to what I'm about to say, but say, the building-blowing project that I've been co-leading with Dr. Tom Richie at the University of Warwick, and also had Lee Mankarini, and Adam Olcock, as leads last year on it. So the project began last year when I really, as a student, I was like, "Oh, who don't feel included or able to access things?" And I'd really like to support other students in, like, well, understanding this and supporting a sense of belonging. It then grew massively, and we joined the Advanced H.E. Building Blowing Program, and we developed a framework based on people's, a lot of what you said, David, in terms of belonging, it's such a multifaceted, most-dimensional, it's individual. How I experience belonging is not how you're going to feel like, experience belonging, and how I experience belonging is going to differ, like, every day in different contexts, based on lots of different things. And so we deliberately have not defined belonging, because then we'd exclude people, and we don't want to do that. Yeah, it's exactly, and it was really interesting. We worked for students and staff, and we found the themes were the same across both groups, which maybe isn't surprising. But speaking to what's being said, the core themes that came out were originally autonomy, which then got changed to empowerment, because autonomy felt lonely, and didn't speak to what we were trying to do in terms of building belonging, maturing, connection, and inclusion, and all of it underlined by trust. Because, well, without, how are we going to build meaningful connections if we don't trust each other? You're not going to, how are you going to feel included in a space if you don't trust the people in that space, or you can't trust that you can get to that space? You're not. And I think something, say this last year, we, Tom and I have been co-leading a Warwick International Higher Education Academy Learning Circle, very long, lots of words in higher education. And it's been intimidating, but also incredible to see it grow. So we've got over 80 students and staff parts of that, and they've been testing the framework. We weren't going to go, right, so we've done this. Now everyone take it on, because it's perfect. No, we really wanted to test it, and see, does it work? Does it not, like, is it going to support you in kind of stripping that back, that abstractness and feeling like it is a little bit more tangible? It is a little bit more doable that you can actively support sense of belonging. Yeah, so that's been, and so from feedback from the students and staff who are testing and using the framework within their spaces, we've developed resources, which I've loved so much, because people are like, "Oh, it'd be great if we had this." It's like, "Okay, right, leave it with me." Let's develop it. They go and test it, they give me feedback, they're like, "Oh, actually, it didn't quite work in this way." "Okay, right, let's review it." And so it's been a lot, but it's been amazing. And so it's really exciting to people like, "Right, we can't stop now. We've got to keep going." It's like, "Okay, bro, let's find a way to keep going." But, yeah, I think something that was cool and is cool to the framework was considering the different participation types as well. So, like, trying to strip back this idea that co-creation is the be all on that end all, and that all we must always be co-creating, but really just putting value on doing things for others, doing things with others and doing things that are led by others, because, yeah, it's not always like students may want to engage. Like staff, they may want to engage, but, you know, we've got so many time pressures, it may actually just be that they want to engage in a quick conversation, and that's all that they can give. Bro, that's amazing. And maybe at other students, they want to lead on things. Fantastic. Support them in doing that. But, yeah, those were. So, when everyone was talking, I was getting really excited, 'cause I was like, "Yes, this is kind of what we've been working on." And I think that's why it has had such a positive uptake, and we were actually shortlisted for a Social Inclusion Award, which was really just lovely. And it was just, yeah, kind of threw it back at the community in the nicest sense of just like, "This is all your work." Like, "This is everything that you have confused to." But, yeah, I think something that maybe is a theme of today's conversation is you don't necessarily have to overcomplicate things, and it's okay to still ask questions. And to keep asking those questions, even if you think you might know the answer, but talk to people about it. So, yeah. I think there's a lot there that seems to be resonating with both Tom and David. So, as we sort of start to move towards a close, anything that you would add to Inca's kind of guidance there around student participation and the need for framework and simplicity and kind of adaptability. Tom, can you? So, I'd say, just to add, the question was kind of saying, "Is there anything really out there that doesn't work?" And is there anything out there that we're seeing working at the School of Finance at Westminster Business School? In terms of what's not working is, I think, exactly what Inca's just said, is just not talking about it. So, there's a lot of denial of just saying, "So, my main endorsement is you've got to talk about engagement. You've got to talk about attendance. We've got to be curious about what's going on here." And so, I'd say, by ignoring these changes and engagement preferences that are going on in our society and washing up at our universities, you can't just say, "Well, I do hear people still say, "it'll all be better after we get the COVID students through, "but you'll have to wait so long for COVID students to go through." I'd say the second thing, which, again, Inca, you said, "But I've seen a lot, anyone who's been involved in "freshable services or student unions will agree with this, "is we shouldn't just try something once, "and if no students turn up or only a few stones up, saying, "we won't do that again. "Sometimes you have to try things several times to build them into community, "people may have seen them advertising, "I'll go to the next one." So, and I found work in pressure services and in universities, in student unions, that you sometimes need to do things about five times before you start to see the payoff. So, I'd say, don't be obsessed, don't write initiatives off just because you've tried it once. I'd say also, don't write off a lecture because only 5% of the people turned up or if you ran an extra quick opportunity only five students turn up. So, I'm saying to my staff, if that's the case, you give that those few students a really good session. They should get a better session for turning up. So, not being so obsessed with the numbers, I'd say avoid a blame culture. And these are we developments. And this is part of our culture collectively. So, blaming students, blaming staff, blaming certain offices of the university is always not good. I think we can't achieve community with a we culture. And then the final thing I'd say to avoid, and I'm hearing this a lot around the sector is many universities are looking at mandating assessment. I mean, sorry, attendance again, mandating attendance. And I would, I'm up for experimentation. If it's highly relevant and if it makes sense to the student, but if you force attendance, you know, kind of like you just, you will sit there and we'll strap you in and we'll hold your head to look at the TV. I don't think that's gonna go in a good direction. So, I'm up for hearing how those challenges go and how you can make them relevant such as weekly assessment or portfolio based practice. But I think we're kind of failing if we get to the point where, you know, what you just have to attend, tough kind of thing, you know. I think what's working is we're, our approach we're going for is we're talking, 'cause the majority of our students at Westminster and in our school are commuting students, 85% plus. So we're saying, well, I don't say to staff you need to be entertainers. There are people out there saying, staff need to be entertainers. I don't agree with that. I don't think that's fair. And I don't think that's respectful to our academics. But I am saying you do need to run sessions that are worth coming in for. So I am saying we'll design your class. So it's worth traveling across London for and we are seeing, so that's increasing the relevance. And some of that is active teaching and that can create community in the class. And also, we are in a business school so we do have career-orientated students, highly career-orientated, so linking what we're teaching to the job market or to their career is really starting to pay off. So, and I have seen that in recent research as well that if you link career motivations, career journeys, job exposure to engagement that just seemed to pay off in certain contexts, not in all disciplines. Yeah, I think I was actually going to give a nod to what Inky was saying about some of the frameworks that they've been doing at Warrick. I've been lucky enough to get to read about some of the projects you've been doing there, including we are chemistry as an example. And I think you guys are done a fantastic job at linking the engagement activities you've been doing there to showing how that's been not only well received by students, you then want to take up leadership roles running those activities in future years, but also really tangible connections to improvements in the student outcomes retention rates as well. I think, you know, not everything can be measured and there is a risk that we kind of oversimplify things. But I do think if you've got an initiative or a set of initiatives, a culture that you've developed within a department that has shown really significant increases in outcomes, I think knowing you can show that is a really powerful thing to know it's worth investing in and continuing. And as Tom said, you don't want to get to a place where you're just shutting off things immediately. But being able to evidence that is what gives you that bind is to hugely to keep results in these types of things. So yeah, check out we are chemistry. It's a good example of some of that work and how that's done well. I'd also say I've seen some brilliant stuff across the sector in terms of putting priorities around social community building for engagement in, what do you call them, academic societies. So rather than just taking the broad spectrum of student societies and groups, thinking about how we build those communities within students' actual academic departments and so helping students to connect together around their course on the topic that they are actually attending university for. I think where those have popped up, we've seen some really good feedback from students and reports from staff that have been leading those types of initiatives. I'd say the one thing I would avoid goes back to something you said at the beginning, which is just when students aren't engaging, running something extra to try and give them more. So you know, be cautious of the pile on strategy, the layering on of engagement activities. It just makes it hard of students to know what's really worth their time and effort. And what I hear all the time from staff is that it's just really demoralising because it means you're spending all of your effort running these additional activities, which then also get that much engagement or attendance, which is then just really disappointing for all the effort you put into it. And the final thing I'd say goes back to the previous point I said, which is we should be talking with our students about this, setting expectations around the beginning. I think the idea of these sessions you can run, whether they're led by staff, whether they're led by other students talking about their experiences at university so far, right at the beginning of the journey, what we learn through this process, what you should be able to expect of each other, what the university expects of you. And having those conversations earlier, I think just gets everyone onto a closer page if not on the same page. - I'm gonna have to move us on in a minute, but I just want to say a touch on a couple of points, just sitting there and listening to this fabulous conversation. One is around intentionality and Tom, you mentioned something around telling people that it's important and it's part of your role. We've got to be intentional around it. But the other was something which really struck me and when you were talking about your experiences and actually the ability of when it was hybrid to pause, to listen, to reflect, to engage with things differently. And I guess running through the back of my mind is the challenge we have, the fiscal challenge, that the pressure the sector is under at the same time. And is there something where actually what we need to do is hampered by that? So rather than what we can't do, is it too expensive? Because we think about it, just listening to this conversation, student engagement is not a fixed outcome. It's a dynamic process. And it responds to how the learning's delivered and different delivery modes face-to-face, online, hybrid, hybrid open up those distinct opportunities for connection, flexibility and interaction. But making the most of those opportunities isn't automatic. So designing for engagement across the models and that comes back to that point around intentionality, deliberate choice about pedagogy, technology and the support. So is there almost the elephant in the room around the challenge here which we need to have that high quality multi-modal delivery? And there's that real demand on time skills and there I say it, investment. So it can be resource-intensive to do this, particularly when aiming to reach diverse learners ensuring that's equitable, which we must be doing. Yet, as we're learning, as I'm certainly finding out, when I post strategically and I'm very delivering, it's this powerful tools for that inclusive and that meaningful learning, that really struck me what you're saying. So I don't know if there's really a question there and I've gone slightly off script, but I felt that it was necessary to say. So yeah, I'll leave that one there. - Well, I think sometimes we fall into a trap of only where this work lets apply everywhere. Maybe you can try and apply everywhere if you want, but don't expect it to succeed. Like, it has in that one context with that one audience because actually, and I think that's where I come back to kind of emergency experimentation and listening to your audience and working with them because the audience, like, so for example, whether it's students or staff, that's what I mean by audiences. So you're students that you're going to find and say your history department. Of course they're going to be diverse. They're not a homogeneous group, but they're going to have very different needs and wants, and reasons, and motivations, and relevance compared to say chemistry where there's labs and there's those time pressures. So I think, yeah, okay, you can get inspiration from other people's practice. And, oh my word, that's work in this context. And by all means, try it. But don't necessarily feel like, oh my word, okay, it hasn't worked the same. Why hasn't it worked the same? Or, capitalise on that, reflect on that. Why hasn't it? Speak to the, like, how they come back to having those conversations because, yeah, I think, and also that point at the very beginning of don't try and treat all students as the same. Or all staff members are the same, like, enabling and celebrating that kind of individuality and experimentation. And also, I think, saying, when Tommy was speaking earlier, I was thinking about the importance of making time to reflect as well. 'Cause I think so often we go from one thing to another to another and we don't actually pause to ask the questions or we ask the questions, but then we're like, oh, moving on to the next thing. We don't reflect on the answers to the questions and give ourselves space. It is, and I think a lot of that, we can feel like we are beyond capacity. And I think, like, there are a lot of people who are working beyond capacity students and staff. But I think, yeah, having that time to reflect and think, how could I do this differently? And am I working with the students or am I working with the staff that are supporting this? Because everyone has something to give. And everyone is there for a reason. So, yeah, I guess that's my answer, but I don't know if it fully answers your really massive question and thinking. - No, no, no. - We're ending with a really simple question. (laughs) - I don't know if that's the elephant in the room. It's a very challenging question. I was like, Stuart, did you want to come in? - No, no, I think my museum is really more around the resource inside of it. And I think there's something that is also a challenge there, really, as well. I really value your response, and thank you for that. And it's like, I didn't want to diverge completely, but yeah, it is the resource, a real challenge here. I mean, I need to know if that's the elephant in the room, as you know. - I really like Thom's articulation about earlier, though. I think you're right in the way. The pressure that is on our sector has pushed us to get so much more thought around this. Yeah, it's really pushed us to think about it. It's pushed us to care about student continuation, even if it's because some people care about it from a financial perspective. It means it gets talked about boarded up in the meetings. It means we care about our valuation, because we need to get evidence of what's working, which allows us to then have continued some improvements. So, yes, obviously, it does bring lots of challenges, but I think it does mean that there is a focus which is for us with good stuff as well. - Fantastic, thank you. Well, to draw our podcast to a close, we always ask our guests for their top tip. So what would you like our listeners to take away from this? And I mean, there've been many top tips throughout the whole recording. But you may have something for someone that's new to this, you may have something for someone that's more research-orientated. Maybe for something for someone who's pushing at the boundaries. What's that one take home you'd like our listeners to consider? - Habitico, first, everybody. I'd say don't look at the university classroom in isolation, or even how the student, let's call the student a human being, is engaging with the university. Look beyond to wider society and how engagement with other things, whether that's our bank, whether that's our health service, whether that's our friends, whether that's how we shop, how we stream everything, how we search everything on the black mirror, our smart phone. That is all changing towards an approach of how can we do it quicker, how can we do it easier, how can we do it cheaper. And all of those engagement practices that are seeing the high street change, that are seeing how we engage with even our family differently through voice noting or video calls as opposed to meeting up in person. That is all that engagement preference that we're seeing changing substantially in the workplace is washing up at the modern university. And we're expecting universities to be the same as they were in the 90s. Of course, it's going to change. And we're all guilty of that. We all love Netflix over watching traditional TV now. I don't think it's going to be the same again. So respect the changing world that we're in in regards to engagement and then we'll adapt to make sure the university remains relevant. Brilliant. David, next. Yeah, sure. From me, I think I'll go back to that point around shared expectations with students. I think it's within all of our gifts to better understand why students have come to university, what their motivations are, and to be able to, therefore, based on those goals that they have, share with them what our expectations are of them, what their responsibilities are, the part they can play in it. It's going to be able to talk to them about the benefits of whether it's attending in their classroom or taking part in the broader student experience, whatever that might look like, at different institutions. To be able to have those sometimes brave conversations, to be able to recognise their intentions there, that it would be easier for some students to engage in some ways and difficult for other students to engage in those same ways and to recognise that there is attention there. But it's not hiding away from it, to not think that we're ever going to be able to do student engagement to the students without them doing it. It has to come from the student. And so I think having those conversations, whether that be a lecturer at the start of a module, standing up and talking about what they expect, to what they've seen other students benefiting from in the past, or current students talking about what they wish they'd known at the beginning of their journey and sharing that wisdom on them and passing it to others, or a professional services staff member who just helps the student to link in with their servants by linking it to whatever's relevant to their career motivations, linking back to students' goals and having those conversations with them wherever we can. I think that's something we all can do and I think it'll make a big difference. Brilliant, thank you. Inquire. Short and sweet. Top tip. Yeah. One thing I thought ironic that what Tom said in terms of spaces for education, trying to stay the same when we're supposed to be spaces of learning and development. So I just thought that's quite ironic and made me laugh. Top tip, go to your audience. There you go. Mm-hmm. Excellent. Can I give a top tip to it? She can, then. So I was giving one for the sort of thinking about the academics rather than the students because I think we need to be mindful that we've got diverse student bodies, but we've also got diverse staff. And we need to be really clear with staff and provide guidance that explains it about what engagement means, what it looks like, how we can encourage it, and what they need to do and what's within their gift. Because I think academics can feel responsible and exactly as you're saying, David, we can do all of these things. And we need to be sort of met halfway, but we do need to provide some real guidance and support for staff because it's not always their priority or it's not always their area. It doesn't naturally come naturally necessarily. So we do need some proper resource and time and space and guidance around, how can we enact really positive change around student engagement? No, absolutely. Well, it does leave it to me to close this episode. A heartfelt thank you to all our guests to Inca, David, and Tom. To my co-host, Vic, thank you so much. All of your insights have been invaluable. Before we go, I wanted to remind our listeners that there are wealth of resources on our website. Indeed, we have the student needs framework and the company and user guide that was published recently. We have the student engagement framework. And just listening to our guests, employability's come up, inclusivity. There's frameworks in both of those as well. We know that these nodes of intersect are so important in terms of enhance and student success. Next month, the podcast is on employability. Much more will begin to be unpacked. What promises to be an equally exciting episode. Until then, stay curious and do tell your colleagues and friends. Hit that share button, hit that like button, and then do follow us. [MUSIC PLAYING]