Episode 75 w/ Tony O'Reilly

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It means your boy-foil walks in every room on every device, no dead zones, no black spots, and if it doesn't walk wall to wall, they'll give you back 150 euro. That's a guarantee. So graph the fence, switch a guaranteed speed, guaranteed reliability, and guaranteed prices for two years. Very jamid. It's played on. Go Light presents the Talking Bollocks podcast. Bill, episode 74 of the Talking Bollocks podcast brought to you, boy, Go Light. It's me, Tari, Flea. It's me, CLB. And this week, what join, boy? 20 euro really. That's your kill, Tony. That was your kill to go. And this week, we're not going to blow me any zingles, any suggestions, I ain't looked at. We're on the clock, but also this amount of serious podcasts as well. It's something that we're passionate about. And we want to get in there. And Tony, you're the perfect guest for that. If you want to give us a short brief, about what you're going to talk about with us today. I suppose today I'm going to talk about my gambling addiction and give a snapshot of how it started off as a recreational activity, small one pound bet. And then where it ended up, totally derailing my life. And suppose I'll just talk about the, I suppose bounce and back after it as well. I suppose that's an important part of it too. Yeah, so this is something that we've actually talked about. Numerous amount of times on this podcast, Tony. And in more recent weeks, it's going to rare to talk to you head again. And I'm like, you know what, we need to actually get someone who's been thrilled to meet with this. And then come out to you that so as well to talk about the the dark sort of gambling and how it's a invisible addiction. You know, because we talk about addiction a lot and this for substance abuse. And you see the physical there, the physical aspect of that. But what you don't see with gambling is the physical what's actually going on mentally. Sorry, you can't really see it physically. And what it's actually done to somebody behind the us. So that's why we wanted to get somebody in. And I think you had a perfect guest for that. So we both have our own personal experiences for gambling and we will touch on that. We've told him before, but it's been a long time since we actually got into the detail. So we'll come around to that. But if you want to take us back to the Saratowni and talk about just maybe a short intro where you grew up and then how you got to do your force back. So it was born in Cardo, banging this center of the town and live the normal life. Family of three, myself and two sisters growing up. I suppose you're normal every day happy, glad we're out playing soccer in the fields, doing knickknacks, knocking people's doors and running away. Stuff like that, just a normal happy toilet. But I always felt I was kind of, I also had a bit of insecurity in me. I always felt under peripheral group groups and trying to find my own. I suppose place in my group of friends and I often kind of drifted between groups of friends. I suppose my first ever kind of experience of gambling would have been when my dad brought home and we're not really gambling. I suppose it was probably seen that my dad brought home and I'm strut CPC464 if I need to remember it. In old kind of style, home cure, something like the Commodore 64 that was out years ago. Definitely show my age. And I was 10 at the time and some of the games that came with it were free games. You know what I mean with the cassette. And one was a fruit machine game. And what I'm even doing some of the talks nowadays are my some of the school talks, I show a clip of it. And even like 37 years later, I can still hear the sound and see the visuals of it. So even back then, it kind of grabbed my attention. And I suppose growing up as well, I would have surrounded myself by nice things. I would have bought music. And as you're saying today, I was in tower records by and stuff as well today. And to kind of combat the insecurity, I used to surround myself by nice things. And in my room, best of telly's, best of stories and a lot of music and everything had its place. And that was the way for me always to kind of settle myself. And my first probably experience at gambling wasn't really until I was 24, which in today's world is very late. It was 98th to work up for five to 16. It was a different landscape back then. For me, it was a lot of the gambling or most of the gambling was done in bookie offices. Online wasn't really a thing like smartphones only come in nine years later. So it wasn't really a thing. And it wasn't a thing like circle of friends, whereas nowadays, you know, we work with people or 17, 18, 19 when full blown addiction from gambling. Yeah, my life grew up, I suppose I left college. I went to the local IT for a young whom William Sirve went to the local IT, left college and went out working at an early age. And probably the sign of things to come as I really liked having money in buying things. And that's always been a narrative throughout my life was buying stuff. And even today, I will end up like I'm just buying stuff like that. And even though I haven't gambling in nearly 11 years, I would definitely cite online shopping and shopping as something I have to be very mindful of. Like an impulse thing. Impulse control is all the gambling used to be. Yeah. But definitely that compulsivity, a few times we never knew band. And I kind of heard wonder songs. I nearly have that feeling of I need to go on by all around. Yeah. Just to have them. I really kind of even now today, like in while I'm in good recovery from gambling, it's something I have to be very mindful of and something that I kind of constantly am working on or battling against as well as obviously being in recovery from gambling. You still get that impulse to like you still feel like you could slip even though you're 11 years. Yeah. Like for example, like I've wouldn't have had it for about a year. But I was over at the Liverpool Everton game couple of weeks ago and you know, I was walking on the centre Liverpool, I think it was about quarter to 10 in the morning and walking past the ladbrook. So I can't really remember which book he was English ladbrook send. The door was open, real inviting kind of not like here would be a small door like the whole thing was open. And for two seconds in my head, no one knows me here. I could actually go in and place a bet and no one knows me. So even I always say when I work my clients that if enough things line up, I'm very much could go back. I just have to be very mindful of that, especially with the shopping and with the other impulse that I have, I'm very mindful of every day, for me, the day kind of walking on recovery. That's mad. I kind of hung up on the fact that you were 24 day on your fourth bet because I was definitely on the red day day when I was in a book he spent and that was just a casual thing which I made to use to do it. You got a full of our tenant, you didn't accumulate on a Saturday, hoping that you'd get served and knowing in terms of what 10 you did. And then because you're down there and often enough, usually your own behind the hill would know you. You'd have no problem getting served. And then you said about the smartphones, making it easier, you thought made them more difficult because you had to verify your account in or a smartphone. Yeah, well, I've done TY talks this year and I remember asking a group of 20 lads, I made them gumbled and half of them would do a brilliant class and were very honest. Half in terms of the online accounts and they said how do you manage getting online account open? And they said because we manipulated that on our phone. And one of us had party parties in 28. And I think it's more so when they try to take the money out. That's when they get through. But they can get the accounts open and get the bets on. But it's when they try to take the money out. Yeah. That's where we need more or we need some kind of legislation regulation which hopefully is it's on its way. So take us back to 98. You said it was to walk up. Yeah. So talk us through that experience. What made you at 24? So you know what? Actually, I'm actually going to go into our bookies now. Something that I could have done probably six years ago, but now I'm going to do it. Yeah, I was working in a bar called Scragg's Alley which is in my hometown. Very busy bar back in the day. A friend of mine was sitting at the counter having a few points waiting for the match to kick off. It was around lunchtime. And remember, he just very innocuously said to me, "I'm going to place a bit in the match." And I just said to him, "Mommy, lunch break, I'll go down and have a look." So I went down and the bookie office was actually the backstairs over in the car park where I used to work and went in. I was blown away by the hustle and bustling. I was mainly old remaining and kind of famous, dockets on the ground and pens. You know, you said, "What book do you snow?" I didn't say the bookies. I was taken back by the energy in there. And I decided I was going to place a bet on Patrick Labor to score first. He was odd, it's about six or seven to one. And I didn't carry cash with me when I was in work. I had a couple of loose coins in my pocket. I know a lawyer's point. Yeah. And I decided to place a pound on them at six to one or seven to one, whatever. And to to frame the score first. And just as well as about to do, I noticed a special on the board for him to score first and Holland to win to one was forty-five to one. And I said to me, "French, why not I do that one?" He said, "Do you be mature?" You know, three or four things have to happen within the match. And my exact words to him were like, "It's only a pound." Yeah. And he flicked the pound and he said, "You're probably a beginner. Stick a pound on for me as well." And we put the bet on, went back up to watch the match and he did score after 12 minutes, clever. And then I think Lopez for Argentina equalized after 17 minutes. And then for the next 73 minutes, we headed every ball, we kicked every ball, it was, and we were telling everyone about the bet. So like, you know, everyone's congratulate. Yeah. And you're a vegetable, but also people are congratulating you even when you haven't even won the bet yet and saying, "How did you even think of that?" Like, you must be good at this. And in the 80-90 minute, the Burkham goal, the famous World Cup goal, Burkham goal. And I often say when I'm doing the talks and schools, it wasn't just the fact that we won forty-five pounds. Like, at forty-five pounds back then, probably about a third of a week's weight is for me, like probably the equivalent of one tree of four yards one today and one hundred and twenty-hundred and fifty or something like that. And which is a lot more money for me at the time. Yeah, definitely. But it was also how it happened. Like, you know, the ball was taken out from the sky and he's right for the past to keep her. So it wasn't just the money it was, the balls they got from the way it happened. Like, we've all watched. Like, even watching the Premier League over the weekend, you know, you see, city come back to win tree two. It's how it happens is because it's more of a loss. Yeah. And I remember everyone was congratulating us and I often tell the story as well that we were, you know, we went drinking for the night, buying people a drink for the night and and later on that night, you know, because I worked in Skrags, we were getting lemons from behind the bar and reenacting the goal. We were, you know, and everyone was congratulating us. Yeah. And going to bed at night, thinking this is easy. This isn't easy with me. Yeah. And most of you thought, yeah, you thought, like, this is going to be like in your head, you know, probably think only going to be a millionaire. Every time I make a bet, I can just pick, I can pick it out because I don't have luck or I know something about football. Yeah. Yeah. Are you thinking of something or football? And, you know, it stayed at that level for about five years because I very much like what you described, you go in at the weekend, you play your football bet, five or ten or a year, it was entertainment, it was the way I used to work every Saturday afternoon. And it was very much, you watch soccer Saturday and the bet come in brilliant. No more so, not it didn't, but you had a bit of crack with it, a bit of entertainment. It was only when I opened the online account in 2003 that kind of changed, that changed everything really. And at 24 and 98 was that your first time ever even walking into a bilky? Yeah, I remember even as a young lad in my uncle's house, he was always kind of into the harsh rest and I was just thinking like, how could anyone have any interest in this? And I remember even, you know, a couple of times in the bookies afterwards, that first time I was in it, thinking like, why do people gamble on these greyhound jokes? Like, it's over 20 seconds, like, what's the point? And then when I saw the virtuals, I was kind of thinking like people are gambling like cartoon racing. Yeah. Let me know that probably ten years later, I'd be putting a hundred euro each way and every 14 to one shot. And that's how, you know, it just mad how you kind of think it's the maddest thing in the world and then suddenly you're in the middle of it. Yeah. It's like the money almost doesn't become money anymore, isn't it? It's like, it's like, you're just thinking numbers, like, like I feel like, if we're in betting on knowing, so it even sometimes like, so you're even more bad gambling when I used to drink, you know, it'd be up at six in the morning, there's nothing to bet on. But like, sit there on virtual horses, all night long. But the money in the corner didn't really bother me. You know what I mean? Like, I used to just think numbers, like, and then it's only the next day when you come around, the following day, I was like, "Oh, it's bleeding. Far away from the quit there. Sit in the gap betting on virtuals." Yeah. So that this connect, isn't it? You're not physically handing over 50 quid. Yeah. Just a numbo on the screen and it's gone. And you're like, "Ari, 40, 50 quid." The online thing happened. I got a 50 euro voucher from my girlfriend's brother for party power. And I got for Christmas present, but I didn't try even cashed at Intel February. So like, 50 euro sitting there. So like, I wasn't even bothered about it. And so I wasn't a big, and then I went into the bookish shop and said, "Can I use that to play as a bet?" And I said, "No, you've opened up an online account." And I went, "All right." So I had to deal with the old, the old Dell PCs and in a bedroom, like, I didn't even have a laptop at that stage. I went home, opened up the account. And now exactly what you said, like, it didn't feel real, because I had to associate my credit card to make large amounts into it. So now you're coming in with free money, essentially, because if you win a bet, you put off the minimum repayment of the credit card. And then that's just, it's like if you're going and spending money on it, you don't rationalize, you just kind of keep spending. And it's only when it gets to a certain point, you kind of go, "Oh, no, I may try to pay off some of this." But also the ability to play as a bet from the comfort of your own bedroom, without actually driving to a car, going down and filling out a dark and get money, hand it over to the counter, or coming back. So it made it a lot easier. And for me, there were the two elements that really kickstarted my gambling kind of slowly creeping up. Yeah, you were saying. So did you, you thought in our tree, so you know, about four years in the gambling then? Did you ever think like, this is an issue? Or you just like, "No, I'm already, it's not affecting me. I'm coping with this." No, a law tree, when I, like, I have the whole, my whole betting history. So from our tree to 2011, eight years of my gambling history is in a document, one thousand one hundred and six pages long. Now the first page of that document shows the bet I was doing. I was doing a five and right key and it could send off two-year-old Michelon to score the first goal. I think we first bet online that one, I think it was a tenor and Henry Clarkson to score the first goal in the Celtic game. So the bet I was doing, it was very much like still your regular gambling. But because it was online, I was starting to live more regularly. So instead of just doing an unissarative maybe odd harsh rest, I was now going on every night. And you might be gambling on, as you said, stuff in the middle of the night or the next available thing. But also the amount of money slowly started creeping up as well. So it was like a progress, I suppose, or a continuum. Yeah, and I suppose the big thing here is the fact that it impacted your life, your employment life. So your career, do you want to take us into that? This is the big jump now. Yeah, I suppose, before maybe jumping into that side of it, there was one bet that I always had changed everything. And it was 2005, it was two years into my online gambling. And it was to find if you have a cup now or the Europa League and CSK Moscow playing sport in Lisbon and CSK Moscow were one of the down and a half time. The match was on in sport in Lisbon's ground as well that year. So that's probably added to the price, but there were 10 to 1 to win the game. And I thought it was a really good bet because they've been watching them choke the tournament and got home, had laptop at this stage, sitting in the sitting room. I got home a half time from work and my partner was sitting beside me. I remember even just turning the laptop slightly so she couldn't see which money was going to put on it because she knew I like the bet. So she knew I went down the Saturday and I always said I'm only one of five or ten or but now I was kind of gambling in 50s. And I remember putting 50, I was going to put 50 or one or two, a 10 to one, two to win five hundred Euro in. And just as I was about to press bet, now I know it's the West Hammer player in Ipswich in the playoffs, semi-finally into Premier League. And I decided to put a Bobby Zamore in as on the bet as well as for our score score. So it's the 50 or double push down the laptop, cover went up to have a shower, came down and within 11 second half minutes, Bobby's a more score to first goal and CSK Moscow gone two on up. No, he left big shower with me and herself comes in and says what's the story? Liverpool playing and I said no, that's next week, Champions League final. And I remember I said to her just like I have a tenor on, I have a few water bets in and but if this team wins, I enjoy to win five hundred Euro. And she saw that square and I said even better, I'm going to give you most of it towards, no, but we're getting married a couple years there. So listen, put that towards the wedding and then the score at her goal and she was kind of invested in it a little bit as well, she coming in now checking because obviously, you know, it was because it was a lot of money. And when the bet did come up after CSK Moscow on 3-1, again, I kept the laptop away as you can see it, but when I logged in, it now showed 4,950 Euro. So within a space of an hour, I'm already 5,000 Euro. Now instead of being delight with that, I was kind of going, why didn't I put 100 Euro on it? Why didn't I put 200 Euro on it? I put it on the price of a wedding price for a new car. Now we did take the five hundred Euro out and give it to herself. I kept the 100 Euro, probably bought a couple of CDs or something for myself as well. I put 1,500 Euro there, but it's back onto the credit card as paying off some of the kind of loans or loan repayment. But I left 3,000 Euro in my online account to gamble with and you kind of see this free money then. And what happens is I start doing bets of 100 Euro, 200 Euro. And if you're doing 200 Euro, 100 Euro bets, it won't take land to go through 3,000 Euro if you're not winning. And it's hard to go back then to the 10 out of 10,000. Exactly. So then what happens is you lose to 3,000 Euro and last of all, it's around the Champions League final in 2005 with Liverpool. And then you went chasing it. And then I started chasing that then. So your whole psychology nearly flip flops and you start chasing 3,000 Euro, because you don't think that I'm about to start with 50 Euro, you think I'm about to lose in 3,000 Euro and then you chase. And then you start chasing the 3,000 Euro, and then you lose 5,000 Euro on your credit card. And then you go to the bank, get a loan, top it up, start a whole process again. And fast forward on two years later when I get married, I'm about 25,000 Euro in debt before I get married, all gambling or late. So very much, very quickly started impact life. And as an union of family, you have an inkling kit that this is going on. Not until it came to light in the weekend, 29th of June, 2011. People knew you liked the bad news. Only afterwards then people said, oh, that's why you were so withdrawn. That's why, you know, even the night you're stuck part, you went missing for three hours because you were down to party powers. We're not all ads and we're in celebration, you're stuck part. That's why you're more stressed that you're wearing. That's why, you know, you were just a shell of a person for lots of times. And like people know as a change in my persona would never put it down to gambling, but there was changes within me. How about that bring him mentally? Very loyal, like, you know, for him, which at the end, they'd say, "Ladiation." You know, like, again, I can chat about that later on, but like, I was in a hotel room in Karek, Fergus, Tingen, they can take me on life. So like it starts off as a one-on-bat, and then it builds up to that. So when, so this is, oh, he jumped ahead of us. So when does this jump happen? What year are we talking? Oh, hey. So seven was when I got married. So two weeks before the wedding, I'm 25,000 year on debt. We're supposed to have 6,000 year on my credit card to pay the balance of the wedding. And my wife, to be, had been giving me money to pay off the credit card. And I wasn't, I was trying to win back all the other money. So any money was going in with gambling. And then I was, I remember even, you know, a couple of, about a week before the wedding thing, how am I going to get this money? So I went into the credit union and I said, can I get loan of 6,000 year for a wedding? And I said, no, we can't give you money. You've got too many top-ups in the last 12 months, and they go into my bank. They say the same. So I'm kind of weak for the wedding and kind of going, how am I going to get this money together? So what I do is I start selling all possessions trying to win, you know, I'm putting it online and reporting money onto the count, trying to win the exact amount. And then like, you know, we got a present of the, we got a present of the wedding, the balance as a present. And so I thought I was going to get no trouble here. So I arrived over to Cyprus, like Eddie, if I went to order for the wedding. And, you know, I'm sitting there, I had an old knocky, 32-10 at the time, like, smartphones running going in. So I was there, I used to ring in my bets. So like, even when I was ringing the bets, I used to normally 16 digit credit card and we're off by heart, I was ringing it in. So I knew that I couldn't ring in bets over there. I didn't ring my laptop with me. So I'm thinking, I'm over here, I'm after getting, I'm after getting out of jail as a, as such with the, with the present. Yeah. Sitting or thinking, I'll be fine, I fixed it a bit when I get home. But part of me was always thinking as well, my, you know, my fiance, I think there's another 6,000 credit card. So she could ask for extra while we're over there. And so part of me was always thinking I need to get this back quickly as well. So I'm over in Cyprus, and 40 of us arrived the first night, drinks and arrival, dancing, singing for the night. Going to bed at night, I noticed a couple of PCs in the foyer at a hotel with internet access. So my thing was, well, maybe a kind of a few bets from him here. And then you're also thinking, we're off again a bit of cash as a present. So I can, I can use some of that to pay off the hotel and use someone to credit card. So I start gambling. And you know, the first morning, I sneak down, put in the sip of your pound, and lose a couple of hundred euro off the bat. And then you start panicking again. So then by the afternoon, you're down a thousand euro, then you're down two thousand euro, then you're down four. And then couple of days before the wedding, like put two thousand euro in a horse to trade with it all back. The horse gets beaten by a neck. And I'm there sitting in the hotel by thinking, show you what I'm going to do. There's two days before the wedding. My friend even came in and said, are you okay? I mean, best man, are you okay? So you're having, you know, yourself, since we arrived. And of course, I found myself just wedding nerves. And then I remembered I went online, triggered a free bet. And I remembered that I had not going bet that I've forgotten about. And two of the, two of the parts of the, the four part of the cum laude are already won. Derby County, we're playing that night in the playoff final. The barely won one, ill. So three parts of the cum laude are four had won when I'm going into celebrate my wedding. And I know there's a harsh rest two days after the wedding. That horse has to win. If that horse doesn't win, I have no way of paying for this wedding. And I was stressed during the day at a wedding, like I was, I didn't, I didn't enjoy it for what I should have, what it should have been. It was tarnished. Of course, yeah. And, and then two days after wedding, I'm sitting in the hotel room, and my wife part around me, how many oblivious the fact that I needed, this horse, arteries, written by Frank Ditori to win the derby for me to be at pay for it. I think there's about two and a half thousand euros going on to a six to four shot. And that he wouldn't know we came for, I remember watching a race. I didn't like, I didn't understand the track. And he came from way back to win. And I'm sitting down and I went to the bathroom and point me, fist trying not to kind of yell with just pure relief. And I get off jail as such. And the moly comes under the credit card and I pair the wedding. But you're kind of left at that top. I shouldn't be wet on a bed pair of running, let long be wetting. And you kind of go, well, I'm going to try, I may try to fix this. You know, we get a moment of clarity. The problem is I'm sure you'll agree, like if you've had many guests on, you know, same, but Tom, alcohol addiction, you can't, it's commonly, except you can't drink an alcohol problem. You have to go for support or help. But the gambler believes he's got one better way to fix everything. And that's why doing a couple of months later, I went back to the bank, got another couple of grand, came up with this big plan of how I was going to win it all back. Because now I had to win 31,000 euro back. And I started that whole process again, roll on two weeks, two years later, sorry, and I'm 45,000 euro in debt. But how many do you reckon even? So I think, do you ever get that moment when you have a big bet on and you think if this bet wins on never gambling again, did you believe that if you had it, if you had it got back to even money, you wouldn't have gambled again. It's a great film called, Mr. Cippie Grind, and it spoke gambling and the window jackpot in the end, and probably ruined it for a violin, hasn't seen it. Boy like that at the end. Yes, boy like that. And there's a moment at the end of it where he just, he goes in, he goes, sits back in the car and you know, you know, he's sorted everything out, he's going, he's going back out because about being in action, it's not worth the money. Yeah. If I got all that money back at any point of my addiction, I would have started again. Like there was one point where I won 10,000 euro, I think it was the half-time full-time's and start of, it could be in the 2006 World Cup, but it was before it was really a problem. And I could have cleared all the debt and I wasn't gambling that at that time. I could have cleared everything and had a thousand euro left for it. And I said, right, and I remember I was on a high day that night and think, right, I'm going to go book a hall in the morning and it was a Saturday night, I'm going to book a hall and maybe one tomorrow and the money comes into the count. And then I was just thinking, I don't need a hall, I lose a thousand euro. I was the guy over there, it was the guy over there, and I lost a thousand euro and none of my chasing. But at the end of the week, the 10,000 euro was gone. So it was kind of like, it was never, it was never going to stop for me until I hit that rock bottom. And that's the thing, that's like the worst thing for a gambler can, like that, they can, they always win. Because once you get that hoi, you know, if I won once, you can do it again. Yeah, you chose last chance, wins. Constantly. Yep. And it's sad because there is one of the biggest hois you can get in life, probably. Some of the biggest hois you've ever felt was, weight on one horse and you've treble on it. When you're watching a match and you give a bet built on it, you have the four skulls skull at that chain, this is in, this is in your weight. And that last thing, that hoi is unmatched. But that law, when you lose a new quit that you don't have is, is one of the worst that you can go choose, you get me? You were fast forward a couple of years and I hit a 14-team accumulator on the Wednesday night. It was the English league cup, Scotch league cup, and Belgian league cup. And there's one team called Locke and I thought you know 14 of the bets up. I knew it were up in the accumulator. Yeah, and I would have won three hundred thousand euro to get me back. And that would have got me back. And Locke and we're one, I look on the 79th minute. Sorry, did you say you were three hundred thousand down there. No, I would have, yeah, I would have been, I would at this stage, I would have stored in three hundred thousand euro. And this would have got me back as to that zero point. So I never forget like it was a 14-team accumulator. And that one, I look on the 78-minute year old crowd equalized. And I never forget that pitted the stomach stuff. And I was on that way. What did you got now? It was small, I think it was 1,700 euro. I had enough. It was small enough, 7,700 euro. But compared to putting 40,000 under Norwegian ladies football team, no, 14, 14 of all the accumulator, like if I was to deal with 40 of all the accumulator, I'm for a scar, no, maybe like, yeah, the games of scars a bit more than I supposed to when they do say no, small amount. Yeah, but I suppose in comparison where it went, it would be smaller. That's a thing, that's what I'm saying. It's hard to go back when you start getting bigger and bigger. It's hard to go back to the 20 euros. You can't. You can't go back yet. But I couldn't for two things because of the excitement, but also because I had to win all this money back. It was always about trying to win the money back and get back to zero. Now, would I have stopped when I got back to zero? Definitely not, though. For a week or two, I bet you would have. Yeah, but I did for, yeah, I did for at various points. I did because you got such a shock from it. Yeah. But then the old edge comes back and you kind of go with it. And it was always about like, it was from earlier, it says, especially when I started taking money, it was always about trying to win that back, trying to win that back. So let's get into that, where you start taking the money because you said that, that you are stealing the money. So a lot of people don't actually know you're at your store because if they see the name, they probably won't realize who you are. But let's get into that then. So suppose getting a new job, I got the job of branch manager and Gory and probably 2009, which was seen as a huge thing for someone my age to get it. I moved up to the organization. I was about 45,000 euro in debt at that stage because of my gambling. And I remember even thinking I'm not going to be able to take up the position because I had to buy a set, we had to buy a second car. I had to go in and bake the credit for a thousand euro to be able to buy a run around the car to take up the position. Went into the job. Again, it was another moment that was tarnished by gambling because I couldn't even enjoy the fact that I got this big big job or promotion. So I went in and the credit junior said this and don't come back to us for anything once we were nearer. You won't get anything. So my, my gambling kind of stopped for a while. I threw myself into my work and now I would have then would have been doing the 20 euro on 15 team equipment. It was a try. I wasn't I was trying to go back to 20,000, 40,000, whatever it was. I was doing a lot more lottery. I was kind of doing kind of, you know, a hundred euro lottery week trying to win the jackpot. And then I remember I went into the party power one day and I saw a lot of money over the counter further online account. And I was just thinking I can start doing this again because I was always very mindful of doing bigger bets in the office because I always felt someone would question it, whereas online it's completely anonymous. So I started selling stuff again, starting to bankroll my big plan again to try to win all this money back. And then I remember my wife came home one and said she was pregnant. And again, I should be the best news. And was the best news I ever got because we were a lovely daughter but I remember thinking crap because I knew that she wasn't going to be getting maternity pay. Yeah, because I knew that she would, she, in her job at the time, didn't have maternity pay. So she would back on social welfare for the duration of the pregnancy. Yeah, so it was a huge drop. And I was dependent on half her, the money for half the mortgage, half different bills. So I was thinking, I only have five months to, five or six months to try to get all this money back before she goes on maternity leave. So then the pressure really hits you. So like again, in the, in the presentation for the schools, I show a picture of someone getting sick into a toilet. So what she was getting sick and in mourning sickness and one batch of most injured batch from each morning in sick with stress. And you were saying you're on that, you know, there's not a physical sign of gambling, but there was a definite physical sign of stress on me. I was blown out of its stress. So it was comforting to stay in the spare room probably drinking. I wouldn't say, you know, problematic, but definitely like a hollow abuse, you know, going to frightening just forget everything. And I remember not a fraud conference a couple of years ago and I said for, for fraud to happen three elements, half of your presence, pressure, opportunity and rationalization, pressure was under as huge, the opportunities there because I'd access to the saves, but they also knew the systems of unpost and I started rationalizing what I started to because I started stealing money. And it started off as calling it the start and manipulating the coin bags and you let it go by weight. And once that started, when it started stealing more money, like I suppose, I was stealing hundreds at the start and it went to a thousand and then two thousands. And then when it went to about four or five thousand, again, I was convinced, you ever see that? I always say no, a dumb and dumb or a light Christmas, you find the briefcase full of a towel or a million. Yeah, it feels like oil. Yeah, that was kind of, I was convinced that I would win it back. I just don't know you, I'll win it back. And that's what you rationalize each and everything. And I remember I started stealing notes. So the notes for the pensions and social welfare will come wrapped in buttons of 50,000. So it would be 10 buttons of 50s, wrapped in plastic. So you just slice down on both corners and using the needle nose pliers, I take out two or three thousand from each bundle, seal it back up, mark with a black American port at the back of the safe. So I think by the time I got me first started, I'd stolen 8,000 euro and he came in cash out of count to 12 bundles, 600,000 euro, but in fact, it was only 592. And then he kind of turned on and said, yeah, that's brilliant. Tony cash looks good. And then I remember when he left, I had another one of those moments of clarity where I go with this is wrong. You know, I'm stealing money and it's not me as a person. I'm not that kind of person. And I kind of around my mom. And I just said, instead of saying, mom, I've got a problem with gambling. I said, I've got a problem with money. And that's what you do. You see, there's a problem with money, not a problem with gambling. And I asked you to get a loan of 8,000 euro from the credit union. And to beg your not to tell me that. And I talked me a few weeks to get around her, you know, the blue eyed boy at home and the manipulator to get loan. I said, I do the repayments. I don't guarantor. Remember getting the check for 8,000 euro. And I went to the evening and I couldn't get cash in the credit union. And I went back to the office. And I couldn't put the check into the safe because the order was usually coming to the doors in the morning. So I knew I was due to the main order for it to come in and take over the office for the whole day. And I sitting at the check said I can't put this in because it wasn't endorsed with savings and investments. So if they did come in, they know that was a personal check. So I just had to hope that it wouldn't be there to fall on there. And then you could put through the safe and it'd be flush through the system for next week. So I'm standing against the red air half air to fall more and I see the five suits walking through the hard drops. And at any stage, like Russian who led at any stage, they could have opened up any of the ones that were those tree-borns that were missing money. And here was a solution to be pocket. So then they got through the whole order and hand money out, but didn't go when to check the cash. They must have put back in the ones that were missing money back at the back. And half five that her own said everything's perfect on. Didn't see it. They didn't open up one of the ones that was missing money. So again, I was, I was absolutely emotionally busy, draining the chair. And then it's like a scene of a film, not a camera panning so many can really see what they're thinking. And then kind of going, they're not going to be back for one hundred six months. I've already got through it twice. If I just leave that there I can use this eight house in order to bankroll on my new plan. I started getting off your map. So I cashed it in and started gambling on that. It's the equivalent of what happened at the wedding basically. Yeah. They don't see transferring paid it already. I started gambling and I lost within my last within four or five weeks. And then of course you start stealing more money and more money. My daughter was born a couple of months after that. And by the time she was born it saw on 68,000 euro. And again, I just hit that while I was out in return to leave another big moment, ruined by gambling. And I remember even in the hotel, even that, sorry, not the hotel in the hospital, ringing everyone a half, two in the morning in good news. And just tears rolling on me face. And not tears of joy. What it should have been was tears of sadness, anger, regrets, giving out to myself, how did you get to this? Like, you know, how did they get to like 68,000 euro was it was kind of and I hadn't been able to gamble it back or win it back at all. 68,000 euro at all. But also to 48, 50,000. I had to try again to be on. So it's just pure pressure. It was just it was horrendous. So personally over your head does what she does well, 50,000 euro. Yeah, legally. Yeah. And then you had to rob and 68,000. Yeah. And you're robbing to try and win back to try to get back to that zero. And it was all like, I'm very, even when I'm doing the presentations at schools and stuff and I'm always very conscious. That's all I keep saying it was always we're getting back to zero fixedness, always we'll fix in the broaden. And I got back after three weeks, man, but currently, if I didn't even want to take time off with me, don't worry more because I wanted to be there to try steal more on you to fix it. And I just kept stealing money, stealing money. And we're doing the same technique every time. Yeah. I remember you're forced home stealing. How much was the forced amount that you steal? It was a hundred euro. A hundred euro. Yeah. Two bags of two bags of two euro coins. And then just gambled that and then it would have been actually ninety euro because it would replace with a bag of ten cents. And that used to bring the way back. So that and then it was in a cloud, pink cloud bag. So I knew that they picked it up the node that it was and even the way that we're very similar in weight. So as you speak experiment with all this. The tar process just didn't get the money like. Yeah, but see, it's like any addiction. It's like any kind of special kind of you'll find ways to get money. Like you'll think of in in jeans like I just don't even taught me to sit at it. It's someone like I remember getting a tip for a horse on the day I was going on my holidays. I was going to lands right here at ten o'clock or something that evening. I ate a thousand euro on my pocket, spend the money. And got a tip for a horse running for party. I think in the Scotch ground, actually 25 to one was told each way I bet you got you got your money back. Went to the bookies now or before the race kicked off. And I'd lost nearly all the money because I was gambling on cartoon races, gambling and everything. And they just went on that kind of chasing. The horse beat Ruby Walsh and the favorite who was six to forwarding by a nose. And I just about won the money back. Just before that race went off, I was down nine hundred euro. And I was thinking it was right. If this horse doesn't win, I'm going to go to say I'm going to start beat me head off the wall, go home with cuts and rails, throw me water when I say I was moved. And that's the level you go to. You'll find ways to navigate anything. I think I lost me wallet three times. I'd never touch wood. I never really lost me wallet. I'd be there. I'll do it now. And but I used to find ways to navigate and to navigate your different situations. But that was one of the ones kind of looking back kind of going like you were willing to put your head in a true wall just to cover up this game. It's really isn't it? And I think most people as well have a story about gambling where because many times we left the bilgis and thought we'd rob a car now at this stage. I remember years ago, we were forbidden fluid enough, we were supposed to go there, me and all the boys. And today, before forbidden fluid, we were all in the bilgis, we were having a few drinks. Tomorrow is going to be great. And I'm not the hell much of a reason. No, you're going to really, really bad death. But when I remember, I had six hundred quid. I mean, and I wanted to be three hundred quid. So I was up to knowing hundred quid or something. And the end of the video was not running the space until I three hours. All of it. I remember leaving. I was walking on the road. I was like, looking and cars and all that was saying, we'd looked bright and we'd now just take money out. There was something now. I never did. Thank God. But I remember thinking like, what am I the fucking all that way there? Can't go out tomorrow. Can't go out today. So I had to be in buzzing all day. And you're thinking about all sorts of things to try and get money up just to go out there. And like even that, like that's not that's a tiny portion of the MLDO ended up losing. Yeah, but I think it's relative. I think the stress or that feeling is the very same. Like it's it's the mountain money. Like I will I worked with numerous people on a professional in professional sense for years and 90% of their stories, 90% of my story, 90% is what you describe. Or I describe you can go, yeah, parallel zeroes. It's the exact same really. So it kind of it's relative. Like is that desperation feeling of like in that moment, you're willing to do anything. The difference was maybe that you did, you didn't do what night did do. But given any other situation, you could have ended up like I get off in the people's eye. I never would have stole like, you know, your your district or you know, like online, you're always going to get online to be used like your scumbag or district or whatever. But I would all say like if you're back as against the wall, you're a desperate man. So if you're if we're in the middle of something and and you can't feed your family, you'll end up sealing to feed your family. Like we'll do things in desperate situations. No, I'm not, I'm not kind of trying to condone what I don't because what I don't was wrong. Like I should have or could have asked for help. Like looking back now, I would I do that's what I do now. But in that moment, like fear, pride and ego, stopship from from looking for help. And then, you know, you don't want your friends can turn on, what do you mean? You can't build 300 euros for them. You need to do what? Like what's wrong with you? And I doubt that's what's stopping. And then like I never knew how to ask for help as a younger person because I always felt insecure. So like it was nearly like it was always layering up towards them. And it's just like I just I'll fix it. And you're convinced you'll fix it. Yeah. So you said you were up 68 and then you're about 50,000 in there anyway. So that means if gambled over what you're talking about 120,000 euros, give a take, you have the gambling. That's what you've lost. How many years span would that be? So what year would have been that you really should drop 68 grand from the post office? 2010. So suppose you're looking at you're looking at probably first online, but I suppose the stealing part was done very, very quickly. Yeah. It's normal very, very quickly. Yeah. So probably if you look at my gambling progression under my online account, you'll see that it starts for you. It's a slow burner and then suddenly just full goal. So I think it's from the first minute I stole money and probably got 68,000 probably a matter of a month or two. No one said month, probably two or three months. And then fast forward in September, October, November, seven fast forward, two and a half months after that, just an extra two hundred and 30,000 euros on top of the 68. Thank you Rob. Yeah. So with time to turn it out, I can't wait to stolen two hundred and ninety three thousand euro. And I wasn't surging, moving cash at this stage. I was just changing figures on a thing called an AR, which is an account per receipt. So when people, you know, when checks were more popular back then, so the people coming pay checks for their savings, investments, bills, you would get the checks off the counter. You'd total model up and do a check lodgement each day. So you'd have five of those lodgements each week for the cash account for the audit. Now I was just open up a figure by nearly three hundred thousand. So I had a pencil and change. I didn't know where, like even looking back now, the rationalization, like I, even trying to rationalize an hour, like it was just, I was just changing the figure. Like it was always going to get caught, but in a reminder of a convention to get away with it. And I remember, like, there was a time with the banking crisis, so there were a lot of people moving their money from the banks into the post office because it was stay guaranteed. So for us to have figures of half a million on checks wouldn't have been on usually. So I remember the audit team arrived, and I think it was the 15th of December that year, it was time in the bad snow. We had pretty bad snow around that time. And they had in the common November, and then the usually wouldn't come in December because it's so busy. But they came on the 15th. I'm sitting against the radio. And I always used to sit here on the Thursday morning, looking at the cameras, and I saw them coming through the alleyway. I mean, hard just dropped. I ran out to the toilet, got sick, changed the figure, brought the AORs, just fired with a slips of paper, text my wife and said, I'm sorry for everything because I was convinced that was the day I was getting caught because you don't have like 300,000 off. And the office balance will be probably on 8 or 900,000. So you're nearly a third of your office balance is missing, went back in, put them back into safe, and just waited to be caught. And I remember he took the, he took the AORs out of safe, went over down the figure, and was kind of looking at them, and put them back in. So he didn't question the figures there and then. Again, the left that day and said everything was perfect on the office going great. But I always left that, I was also left with that and thought that at any given time, the figures, the proper figures in the bank will come true to their office. And they would kind of say, where's the show up somewhere on A balance sheet over there. So again, you start panicking. Like four days later, we had that really bad snow that we had in 2010, like the whole country came to a standstill. I remember getting up four o'clock in the morning and driving to work, took me four hours to do a forty-five minute drive near the crash to car four times. My wife begged me not to go because because it was, you know, it was good. It was, and I remember I got into the office in the area office trying to say, what are you even doing there? And I said, I'm so dedicated, you know, I'm brilliant. Yeah. And we're all laughing at the phone, but little didn't know I had to be there at the height of this test. And there's people who live five minutes away from the office, couldn't get out of the driver to come to work, but I was after a drive in four hours near the crash to the car. And I remember I didn't care. I was potentially going to miss my daughter's first Christmas because I had to be there. And over that Christmas I was just stealing more money trying to fix it. I got back to that Christmas and it was horrible Christmas for me because I was so stressed because you can imagine what's like, you know, you know, just that mental madness. And I believe I lost my mind from January to June to fall on year because I stole 1.4 million to fall on six months. So 1.4 million I stole it in six months. So in the space of what? So three years you took 300,000 and then in six months you took one point. No, in space of space, we're about six months, I took 300,000. All right. So you're only robbing the money over the car. At the very end, at the very, yeah, about a year, maybe a little bit over, maybe 14, 15 months. So why are you talking about 1.7 and total then? 1.75, that was total figure, yeah. In 15 months. Even I said, like, it's like, just to show what that looks like, I suppose, it's kind of, it's, I'm stealing 15,000 euro a day. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know for presentations. Yeah. 75,000 euro a week. Yeah. And I'm physically taking 50s and putting into my backpack and walking out. And I'm like, even when I say it now, it's like, just still shivers go down back to me spying when I say the money. And when I'm doing the presentations, because I can see someone in bed, so he's doing, like I was doing as a Nigerian football, Peruvian, Nepal, second division, Australian, Nepal, whatever it was there. And it was just the next available thing. Like, it wasn't that I said right now, I can wait a little weekend till I do something that I might have an idea about. Yeah, like, we know football, I know these are a good chance when you're like, no, that's on. I'm going to buy a half to do now, because I have to get that money back straight away, because it's just, it's pure panic. And yeah, it's like, and it wasn't that I was driving around every single paddy power in the country. I was, I was, I was, I was lodging two counters, one and Gory, one and Carl, and I was never questioned where the money was coming from. But that's more your question, sorry, that was more your question. So, I was asking about your progression in betting. So you wouldn't be in betting small, then all of a sudden you're betting, what, 10,000? 10,000, 20,000, like I said, 40,000 in the Norwegian, that is football team. And no one has questioned that. There's no one somewhere in an office click and saying, Jesus, this fella is a bit, his betting heart is a bit irregular. We better step in. The war, but the war and stop in it. What would he do on that? There were, I've heard since, I suppose, Aaron Rogen, a great book called "Punters" around the rise of paddy power. And there's obviously a section around why he's storing, because it's a big part of their story, I suppose. Well, again, I admire their business acumen. They don't start it off very small, and there are multi-billion-pound operations now. But they got it wrong with my story. And probably, in some ways, probably maybe still getting wrong in order to predict addiction. Complexion is still a relatively new, I suppose, in comparison to alcohol or drug addicts. It's there, but it's not only really being talked about. So, like he was saying that on some days, on quieter days, that I would be doing as much as my account and rest of the paddy power put together, I would be, my account would be, I was doing huge amounts of gambling. The Google map, my house, see where I lived, because the mountain money I was putting on, they thought I was not a bar on the car, because I was going to catch them for millions, because my betting habits were so erratic. And he wrote about that in that book. It's really worth a read, if you ever get a chance to read it, but it was kind of, it was just totally off the scale. Everyone was aware of my account there. There was people set their toll to stay on late at night to monitor the account, to make sure that I was at get bets on or whatever. And it was never a question. It was never. Don't treat it into vain and say, "Where are you getting this money? Can you afford this money?" Cameland addiction was different landscape back then as well as Cameland at the race, as I was saying the start. So even from a money laundering point of view, I was never questioned. And I'm sure that would be different now, but back then it was just. Well, what do you think would have been the best thing for somebody in paddy power? Someone in the building is still there with you back then in terms of questioning and preventing? It depends on timing, like at any given state, like at the start, if someone had intervened before, I suppose it may be before he even started stealing money, or large amount of money, I might be more open to someone and say, "Listen, we think you're my problem, you might be more up to listen to someone saying that." By the time I got past that point in our turn, no matter what anyone had said to me, it wouldn't have made a difference because I had to get the money back. And that was another question I have here, Tony. Was your end goal always there? I'm going to win this amount of money and I'm going to put it back into the post office. You were always going to put it back into the system. Yeah, 11 years later, since my you know, since my gambling came to light, I'm still paying off my own personal debts that I'm talking about from my run. I didn't take any money at all, I didn't pay off my debts. I won a lot of money as well as lost a lot of money. How much did you win? I won over 9 million online, and I lost 10 and a half million, so my account, my total online losses, and I noticed from the documentation, I got my total online, I lost 4.417 million, and I would have lost about three or 400 thousand euro, physically in the bookies as well. I don't have about over 10 million at the losing a lot of gambling, basically. I don't mean to say I'm real, but have you got anything to show for that? Did you ever win a big amount and say, I'm going to pay off the mortgage? No. I was asked out in the infuse and I was interviewed by the guy, I said, "Look, we're going to make bettens." She said, "You won, like I won 462 thousand euro one weekend." I said, "You've hired nearly half of me in your account and you never put the top penalty mortgage." He said, "No, it's my gambling money." He said, "What do you mean?" I said, "I got about a thousand euro in my pocket." And anyone who might have a gambling addiction listened to this would definitely relate to that. I got about a thousand euro in my pocket, and the car would run on fumes. I wouldn't go in and put 20 euro of petrol in it, or I wouldn't go back and chip so I was hungry in the way, because that's my gambling money. And I said, "I'm still paying off the loans to this day, the loans to different financial institutions, but I never took any money to pay off everything." I'm still driving and running around the car. I still owe lots of money. I'm not in the show for it. I lost my house through it all, I lost my marriage, I lost my freedom. I lost a lot, but again, a lot more back to put. From material wise, I lost a lot, so I've not been in the show for it, but I do have a good life, and I'm happy. You're a gambling player. They're in your lesson. Yeah, they're lessons to that. Yeah, materially, I've not been in the show for it, but other than that, I have a lot more. Yeah, come out the other show. It looked like it could have been a more tragic story than it is now, you know, for, see the 460-telegrams you were talking about there. It was that cash online. Online. It was all online at that stage. You had 460-telegrams. So I started off with a five thousand euro bet on a Friday evening, and it was one of those weekends where everything just went right. You know, not everything. I kind of, I was betting online. I got a bit of a win. I think one of bets, I won 68,000 euro on, on a cumulative later, and then lost it all, but then another bet I had gone, got me up again. I had two big wins, one for 90, something thousand euro, one for 115 thousand euro, and I was on a roll. So I had 125 bets that weekend, and 46 winning bets. And the reason I know all the figures I do wouldn't be presentation, is because you think I'm like ran man or something. So you have, what was 460-telegram? Yeah. How much did you out to the post office then? 900,000. So just to give you an example, like that weekend, I 180,000 euro on Karl Spotser who won the Masters. I haven't already bet 48,000 euro on Tiger Woods. I'm gambling 40,000 euro on a tennis pair, one match. I'm not talking about tournament one match, and her career earnings, today at that time was 45,000 euro. So I had nearly gambling all her career earnings, and I was even gambling 5,000 euro on the result of one game. So 5,000 euro, this game is going to be 40, 15 or 40, 30. You're gambling on, you're just not frenzy. So over the worst course of the weekend, like you know, like people say, like you're gambling, how long a gambling? I'm probably gambling 80 hours a day. So you're checking results, you're checking systems, you're making plans, you're gambling, joining night, you're checking results. Yeah, I wake up to choose Mariner's, 46,000 euro on my account, and I'm buzzing. I'm kind of going right there. I'm halfway there. I'm like, even if I got the money back at that stage, it would have been cut. But in my head, I'm halfway here. And I get into the car that morning, I have to pull up the laptop. I used to gamble while I was driving. So the reason why I used to gamble when I was driving, it's just settling me. So like, it's very akin to, I worked in alcohol treatment centers and drug treatment centers for a couple of years as well. The lads would often describe that in the morning, not at the DTs, you have to drink to settle themselves. I had to have a bet to settle myself. It felt like someone trying to use a sledgehammer to beat away all my head. And I bet you used to just settle me. That would calm you. Yeah, yeah. So I'd be there, I'd be placing bets online, quite a driving, I'd have the phone there. So I'd be driving. And days that I wasn't gambling, there was no money in my account. I'd actually be looking at DVDs while driving. So I'd have the DVD rammed up into the dashboard. I remember I think I watched the whole series of prison break while driving to gory. It wasn't enough that I had to drive, but my head had to be, it might be hard for anyone who might not have a behavioral addiction. Some days, if I have people to wrap their heads on that. And when I'm in the schools, I laugh and say like, it's like the panic that it's setting if I say to anyone, the students, I'm going to take your smartphones for two weeks. You don't have panic, what, what if, and it's like that to head. No, maybe not the same, but and that morning, like the systems were down at Paddy Power, so I couldn't get a bet on it. So I sped into work, I sit in there, put the laptop on desk, cup of coffee, opened up, logged on, make sure I wasn't dreaming. Checked it again, couldn't place a bet. And I remember looking over at the safe, 900,000 kind of gone right, just tubeless up. We're back and fixed everything, and I'll be able to be happy. And next thing I look up and see, three audit members, three, three, the audit team walk into the office. My heart just, I had no, at this stage, you're not even changing, changing figures or anything, I just kind of, I'm done. I just come back here on the chair like that, and the walk, and I didn't recognize them, and I said, "How are you, Tony? We're here from the Dublin office. We're here to check security." And I just, I handed them the keys, the safe, and said, "No, no, we don't need to check that. We're just here to check the viability of putting a drop box number to put the suitcase into a wall and drop the money." And I kind of got all right, and so I'm sitting back down, and I get a phone call, for that very moment, and I get a phone call, and the number's not with hell, it's a mobile number. And I answered, I said, "How are you, Tony, speaking who's this?" And I said, "Patty." And I said, "Patty who?" And I said, "Patty power." And I said, "Yeah." And I wasn't patty power, the organization was person from the ads, the person from the Delhi. "Patty power?" And I said, "Patty power." And I said, "Patty power." And I said, And he said, "As the exact words we were, you may have noticed our systems were down. What if you need to get a bet on this is my private number? If you need to ring this morning, I ain't going to go cheat. You wouldn't get a couldn't make it up." And I just said, "No, you're fine. I hung up at the phone because I was very mindful of people in the office." I mean, like from me to you, from me to you, I ain't going, "What's happening? You sit back down. You're going to go, "This is mad." And I was asking Aaron Rogne what afterwards. And they said, "I wouldn't have been unusual for that to happen." And they kind of went, "That sounds very unusual. The head of our organization is ringing you to this bed." But my snopsies of it is that they were worried about me. That I wouldn't be that way again. That was it. I had the ammunition to go even bigger. But the need of worried because the other team left it half 10, I think, or 10 o'clock. I think a nice system, we're back online. A nice start, Kamlin. And then 31 bets over 12 hour period, 31 bets, 31 bets last. I had one big win of 115,000. But I lost 30 bets and 10 o'clock down. 9.57 that night, the balance of my account is zero. I lost all over. 4.62? Yeah. And then I started a whole process again. I had one money on, you can see it on my online accounts. I used to bet maybe 1,000 euro, 1,500 euro in the bookies. And I wanted 1,800 euro. And I put it back on my online account. And I started a whole process again. Oh, that is drain. Look, we can feel that I'm way ahead for years. Which can relate to it from gone through it. But I wouldn't say I've even gone through anything. Then compare it to that. Look, that is actually horrible to think about. Look, my head is spinning. Thinking about that. Look, he used to complain about losing. Say, 'till grant or the grant. And that be over. So, you know, you used to drink good. Because we don't want a till day. And a three day man. Didn't matter where I was. I was copying a gaff part. He showed me where I was. Fuck, I'm here. I tried 50. I made an virtual horse. Didn't matter. And then, Tony, a couple of days later, he had looked like a guy. He had a plane. He had a couple of tracksuit in this. And now, over the course of the few days, you'll be at the level of the grant. That hill. You're talking 460,000. And 12 hours. It could have been 4,600. It was what it meant. Yeah. It was that thing of, oh, I was nearly there. And like I remember, I remember about 30,000 euro on a horse attend to trade. And it's madly giving them. I'm talking about as if it was just a tenor. Yeah. Like, it's just because I'm so used to the figures. Like, I'm not trying to dismiss them. I was like, I remember I was 30,000 euro on a horse attend to trade or 130, whatever. And I was never going to sit up in the bedroom when we had to become a small tally in the wall. And I had to race. I had to pipe up. And, you know, herself was called me to come on. And I was like, I'll be there in a minute. And like, I think she wants to tie a diary more. And I'm done a minute. I'll be done. Yeah. That's where I spent most of my time. Yeah. And I remember the horse romped in by about 20 lengths. And I remember just thinking, oh, fuck. It wasn't like, I won 100,000 euro. And it didn't even, I didn't even flinch watch and race. And the joy had gone out of a well gone out. Because for me, it was kind of, I have to go again. I have to try to use this. I was nearly like a boxer against the ropes. I was just, I was just nearly gone. And this was just like that one reprieve. And I went, I don't want to go into the next round. Would you rather just lost the money? You know, often heard of a ton of people at the stage. When it gets to gambling addiction, it's nearly, there's nearly your leaf when you lose because you can just kind of, as you think of one of your saying around that the mist kind of, the mist kind of rise and you kind of see it be clear. And you kind of, no, it's when the mist rise and you kind of go, oh, Jesus, I still have to get this money back. But you know, often hear people saying that that moment, the respite is worth anything when you don't have any money to gamble for that. It's then you know, yeah, they don't have to go again. But then the panic sets in. And then the scheme and sets in. And then the manipulation sits in. And then you start again. So it's like this constant, I don't even talk about normal singing. It's stressful. It's like constant. Rap lace. Yes, exactly. That's the verse. It's just, it's just, it's just constant. Hamster on the wheel. Yeah, and sometimes you fall off. But then you kind of go on, yeah, I want to stay up. But I have to get back on. Half the ground. Yeah, because I have to fix this. And it's horrendous. So tell us about today where I'll go wrong. All those hits up, the blows up and you guys found out. 29th of June 2011. I arrived in and I went to the morning was a surprise audit. I didn't go into the office, thankfully. Because that was always a big fear of me. It might have just been there. And being caught in right there. And being kind of like trapped. And I remember I drove into the car park at the back like I did every morning. And I saw the poor leash-wrench car. So I knew it was the area of the office. And I had, I just had an inkling. You know the way you just know, I think what happened a couple of days previously. I had been at one of the girls who worked there on Mamaday. And I was at the funeral in, in Bray or something. And I think when they went back to collect the cars, that they noticed that my car was back there. I was doing the cash account before. And it would get in the office in the morning. So I could be ready. So I arrived in and I saw them. And it was like that rush. It was just like adrenaline. It was just kind of like, you know, I went into flight or flight. And I just got, I went. I got into the car and I drove. I was speeding out of glory. I was tracking the voice for a tighter kidnapping. It's not like the voice. It took that part true to the window while I was driving. I took a part of my mobile phone and took the SIM card. It showed out to the window. It was like a scene from a film I was expecting. The guard, the helicopters, people flying. And I hit a home-packed bridge coming over. I nearly bounced over the bridge into the river. I was going so fast. And I eventually calm myself and got in. I think I stopped and drove. I don't know. I can't remember. And my whole idea was just go as far away as I could. And the first way was bad fast because I was kind of going. I just get the bad fast. It's a different country. I just changed a bit of sterling. And even going into the changing starting up, I went into a shop. But I never got me curial night. I had that on me. So I couldn't, you know, I was so paranoid. And I went into the shop. I went into the bank, changed whatever I had into the starting. I got 600 sterling and drove into bad fast. And I just kind of calmed and just kind of got right. I was like, what to do? Straight into a party power. I know what it was. I wasn't sorry. It was a lab. I went in and started calming. Why did I run the road? And it was just, it was that kind of, because that's where I was. I felt, I was in that bubble. That was your coldness. That was my safe place. Yeah. So five races in, five hundred sterling down. And I kind of go, I've no money here. I want to end up sleeping on the streets of Belfast. And I put a hundred sterling on the last race. A horse, a six to one, a horse won. And I got the money back. So I went and tried to walk into a place in Belfast. They were looking for ID. So again, paranoid. I didn't want to book in with my passport. Because the guys were flagging stuff. And they just got in the car and drove our Belfast. And the first time they came across us, it was Kari Furgas. So I stopped in the Kari Furgas, booked into a hotel called Dobbins. Under my friend's name. Got them cash. And that's where I stayed for a couple of days. It's still gambling during the day. I used to go down and start gambling. I want to forge them while they're in the physical bookies. I was on the roll. I was winning the money. I won a couple of grand. I lost a couple of grand. And still gambling online. Even though I knew the teft, they come to light. I was still gambling. I had a few bets still going. And there was a couple of Wimbledon limousade at times. There was a couple of tennis matchups that were delayed because of rain. And they were pushed out. And I was still gambling. Still thinking, I can still fix this. Even though I know I'm the teft. It's too far gone. Yeah. It's too far gone. But at least if I can fix this, it's something. And that's where your skewed thinking comes in. So I know your wife and family and all that. I didn't care. At that point, you don't care. They know where you are. No. No, no. I left in the Wednesday. All I told was I sent my coworker who would be in the mail manager. I sent him a message. Saying, I might be involved in the car crash outside Tolo. Yeah, I'm all care. But the ambulance is on the way. So it's just because I knew they were in there. So I was just trying to buy time. So I'm in carry for it. It's my. I suppose that the Friday night. I was there from the Wednesday. And again, from the outside, it was like someone who was on holidays. I was kind of like going on a few drinks during the day. I was kind of going into. Going into kind of have meals. Very pointedly, I suppose I went in to get tattoos. And I had a tattoo on my arm. I was just super looking like a Chinese kind of symbol thing. And I got that covered up. It was like, and I got my daughter's name on this arm. So it was like, it was like, I don't know what it was. It was kind of like. I don't know. I wanted to have her with me, but I wanted to forget some of the past as well. I was getting ready for. I don't know what. I didn't know what was going to. I was just getting ready for something. I knew this was big. I knew that whatever happened was going to be big. Whether it was me taking my own life or me not being me. What was going to happen. I remember everything really changed in the fright. I lost all the money online. And I drove into Belfast because I had one of those dockets with about 10,000 euro. One of the other ones I used to do was join the day. And again, I was waiting on the tennis match on that. So one went down. The online bets went down about 7 o'clock on the Friday. And the other one came up with about half seven. And I was there right. I need to get this online to stay. It wasn't even that I could wait till the Saturday morning. I had to get in there. It was like trying to get in, get your fix. So I had to get in. So I drove into a random paddy power office, handed in the docket and said, "There's a bit of money in that. Can you put into my account on 2010?" And he's a general problem. No, he's on his own. It was very busy that evening. And I remember that transaction was usually about 40 seconds, 40-50 seconds. And he went into the back. And I knew he'd have to ring glory. Paddy power. So he kind of got into the feelings. And they were obviously going to have will have been contacted by the guards. Because we would put two and two together. But I didn't care. I had to get this fix. And I remember looking at me. And I've heard sense that they had pictures of me behind the counter. And they had pictures of me under a system. And they were told to take my bets, but not to spook me. But I was panicking. Because he was in and out. And I was just going to, this is not right. So I just spun him some year and about to the cars double parked. I'm going to go outside. And I went up to the industry. And I remember looking around the corner. And the police car was flying down. Pulsed up outside. And I kind of got a car up to here. And to start on to people outside. And the left after a couple of minutes just flew off in a direction. Now the rational mind would kind of say, listen, just leave your door. And get the hell out of here. But no, I needed that money. I had to have it. Because they're only a bit startling after as well. I had to get that docker back. I had to get back online. Win all this money back and fix something. And I went back into the office. And Paddy Power Office. And I went back in. And I remember going to the counter and just saying, I told him, I said, my exact, I think my exact words were like, can I get the docker back? I'm staying in Curry, Fergus. But I cashed in across the water. I'm going across the water. I didn't know what I was saying. And he just looked me and said, yeah, you're going to a problem. And I kind of remember. I was really running up the door with it. And I just, I turned around the way out. And I just said, by the way, what's the story? The police car. And I said, I was hitting run here. A half an hour ago. I just checked and see if anyone saw anything. And I thought we were there for me. And I just had to get out of the office. And that's when I went back and started drinking in a hotel. I started drinking really, really heavily in the hotel. And I remember when I was drinking with a fellow with a ranger. I just had to when I saw you in his head. And he was always in recovery for alcohol. But he wasn't in recovery that night. But we just drank. And we just, he was telling me I was saying, again, I was like, I was like a tourist. I was telling where I was going. And he was saying, maybe stay away from this area or that area. And we just drank for the night. He was telling me, we had some great stories. And I remember, I kind of fell off the bed about four o'clock in the morning. Meanwhile, down in Carlo news, it started to filter in about my friend. I think the male's manager attacks my wife looking for me. And she, and he said that I said I was in the car crash or something. She contacted me. Her best friend, Nile, who contacted me. Her friend, who was his father was next detective in the expert. He rang up. Said there was no accidents. He rang the ambulance service. And then just the news started to filter true. My friend started his next detective. Said there was no accident. But there was a surprise audit. And he paused the office this morning. Yeah. So news started filtering true. I was, um, well, I was drinking in the hotel at night. My dad was in the, was in the guard station because they hadn't heard from you. As you percent for four, three or four days. And, and he was there when the CCTV footage came in of me leaving the Paddy Power Office. And that's when I was, I wasn't a missing person anymore. And I remember he got a glimpse of it. And he just saw there was cobblestones outside the Paddy Power Office. So he made a mental note of that. And he went back to the house where there was a big meeting on, in, in our house, or my, my house at the time. And my friend was also me and a friend of his who worked on Paddy Power. And he was giving him a full roll of down. And no one knew about the government. I mean, like, people knew I bet, but no one knew my best friend. No, he would often said that the one thing he kind of questioned afterwards was when, um, I, he rang me one day and they answered the phone. I was in the books, but I came out of the book. He sang the phone because it was so paranoid. And I didn't hang up when I went back in. He heard me going back in. And he heard the bookies. He just said, why is he lying to me about being the bookies? Like if it's your partner wife, you might lay, say, I'm not in the bookies book. So why would he lie to me about where he was? Like, he'll keep this life from everybody. Yeah. A friend. Double life, double life. It was like, it was only afterwards. Again, he's, he doubt, he questioned that. And then he kind of said, the notes that I wasn't myself in certain situations. But also, like, you know, he was also, and I remember it was going to match. He said, just start talking with German second division football. I was going to go, why did you talk to people? So, like, there was signs there, but no one ever put to. It was John Rayley, man. Yeah, I might have to shoot me a shot to go. Yeah. And that's what was, yeah, especially with Gamlin. So that, and he'll always tell the story as well. He would, he'd, he'd, they'd fear the worst. So he'd gone around all the beaches and becks were expecting to find my body washed up on it. Cause the new door here in the extent of it. That night when he arrived back to the house was 15 family members were 16. They were all in the house. Apparently, it was a very heated house. They were trained as what we could do. And I would come in and say, listen, he's actually in spotting in bed fast. Do you use Google Maps to find that party part? One of the cobblestones and got the address. And the side we're going to drive up the parliament to drive find me or get some information. My best friend, now he came back and I remember he, he, Mrs. Rolars, tell the story that he called her outside. Was telling her the story and she just clapped me. Wife clapped on the, on the lawn when she heard it. Like, and it was just a pure shock of it. The amount of money, the, the fact that I'd stolen, the fact that I was, day I thought I was tired of getting up and at the start because there was a couple of them around the one post at that time as well. So meanwhile, they all left for bed fast to fall on morning. I got up fairly groggy about one o'clock and went down to the book office. And that's when I had my last ever bet. It was a horse called bed day and two thirty five in new breeding. And it lost the course. I had a hundred starling and eleven to four I think. And I remember when I was way off the race to start. I opened the newspaper and because it was the media silence was over. Now I was, it was a picture of Gordon post office. Headlines, post office manager steals one point seven five million. And I don't remember any of the article only that family and friends are looking from the Wittler mountains. So I kind of, it's the first time in Wittler mountains. Yes, they were looking for me in all the beaches and mountains. They thought it was dead. So I kind of, I just said, so I made contact because I hadn't spoke to anyone. So I went back and I had a laptop. I didn't have a phone. So I started emailing my wife. And I was getting the meshes back straight away. And I was kind of, the meshes were getting darker. So I was in a darkened room in Carrie Ferguson room number six in Davins in hotel. And my mind was getting darker. I was, I was emailing and saying, I'm sorry for everything to my daughter. I was lover. And when I, and I was thinking to take my own life, I was thinking, you know, I can't, you know, I can't, I was so overwhelmed. I can't deal with the shame, the guilt, whatever else was going to be common with it. And I can't even deal with prison because I knew that was common. And so I was just thinking, I just want, I just want an ease of wellness. And also, I just want the madness that's in me head to stop. That was quite in everything. Because your head is just totally spinning. So I just thought, this is the only way I can quite in this. And I'm sending these emails and they're arriving to the paddy power office and both fast. And it's luckily the same that was on from late before. And after a bit of gentle persuasion by my friend, because he wasn't going to give any information. And he saw for how upset everyone was. I told him that I said I was doing a cardiac fergus. So they were all fluent in the cardiac fergus and the cars. They arrived in and my car is down with the sea front. When they arrived in, I just had to move in the morning from the hotel room. Total coincidence to my car was out. I was on the hotel room, writing emails. And my, I said my mind was getting very dark. And they got the PSNI involved because they were worried. And they couldn't find me in any of the hotels. So they got the PSNI to go into the hotel. And I got a phone call from reception. And half of them said, do you want your room cleaned? No one rings a half of them. I got my power and I looked up the window. But if I looked a bit more to the right, I would have seen all the family members. We're up by the Witter Spoons. And they got knocked in the door two seconds there. Two PSNI officers were gone and stand at the door. And one of them stepped in. I heard they were fellow rundown stairs telling them we found them. We found them. We went down to homey family members. Because they thought I was at the brink of just about to do something. And so it was very much there were panic. And we only have a certain amount of time. And did a fetus study. And I never forgot. I can still picture me studying. And he leaned against red air. And I just broke down. I fell back and I just broke down. And that's my first every experience of psychotherapy or counseling. Because of poor, poor, complete stranger got everything. I just opened up everything to him. And he just sat there and listened. And it felt good, it felt relief. And yes, my family members filtered in our room over the next couple of hours. All I wanted to do was see my daughter. I was very distraught. All I wanted to see her. And yeah, we left about fast. About half 10 at night. Stopped into a petrol station. And they were down to get a bottle of water and walking the petrol station. Very surreal moment. I actually walked in and I could see my picture on the front of all the newspapers. And very paranoid. And get the bottle of water and get back into the car. And then I heard the news bulletin radio. Apparently it was on the 6 o'clock news. 9 o'clock news. But it only really hit me when I got home. And I saw my mom for the first time. To look, she gave me. I never forget to the day I died. It was just pure look at the disgust and disappointment. And that's when I really knew that the impact I had on other people. And yeah, I didn't even have to house for three weeks. And then I started. Went to treatment done three weeks later. And that was just started recovery journey. When were you arrested for it? I went into treatment. I actually presented myself. I was so paranoid about bringing around the town. The guards were brilliantly trope the whole process. I was saying detectives like they met me in my slister's house. And it took a lengthy statement. And I said, just hand it off. I mean, me dad had already hand up the passport. And I just said, I'm going to treatment. I said, this will talk to me to get out. Make sure you get yourself right. And then when did the treatments. And I got out on a 7th of October. And I was asked to present myself to Gordy Garden Station on the 7th of December. I think 2011 I was arrested and charged. With 46 counts of theft and falls. Accounting interviewed for 12 hours. You know, the lace is taken off. It's a bell taken off. You had a mug shot. The fingerprints. And that's when it really hit you. Locked in a cell. Eating your burger and chips. Between interviews. And you kind of really. And I've never been trouble for it. This was an alien to me. But they were bringing me. Even when they dropped me home that night. Like my friend was going to let me drop me up the road. To detect the vein. His was absolutely brilliant. He said, listen. We don't want people to be talking. He dropped me so it wouldn't seem getting over Garder Carr. Because I was actually going in to get in the needle and all his players as evidence. And before that day, I'd come in and done tree search. That's tree search warns. They were looking for. Looking for journals of how I kept it. But I kept all the figures of me out. And I never forget that day as well. I just sat in my parents alone. Hello Kitty bedroom. And five lads going on the house in the interview. It was horrible in lots of ways. But then I was arrested that day. And I was told the core case would take about a year. Between the book of evidence and everything. So yeah, I was a year later. I was in the core room in Wexford. And I've sentenced to three years in prison. Now I was told it could have been. I was told expect between five and seven. I was going to say we're happy with tree. Yeah, because I think because I was able to prove that I hadn't benefited financially as such. The people say, oh, your benefit. You got the trailer to Gambley. But you don't get true. I didn't have a car. I wasn't the house wasn't changed. I wasn't going to Hollis. Like, you know, from for 13 years to all my gamlin. I was never in an infield once. And all the money in the past. I'm a big Liverpool fan. I've been over a couple of times since. I was over a couple of times before. And all the money that passed from my hands. I never went to any Hollis or went. So that was very much one in the mid again circumstances. That I hadn't financially benefited from it. And I was still paying back the money. And so that was on the lower end of what we expected. But I never forget. I was standing in there. And I remember talking to someone in Coonvera. And he was always saying, you know, if they talk about the, if they talk about the negatives first you're okay. Because the top of the positive is going to be on the lower. I remember I said, well, it's just time with the negatives. Right, should we? And here I am saying the memorari and the, the surrender prayer and everything. And the car and my whole family to the right. And you can see me. I heard her saying the word six. I just looked over and we just went like that. And then she said six. And then she worked backwards. And she got four years of one suspended. And even, you know, I was led away. And just for each other on, you know, it's one of the documentaries that they don't call fena. And you see me getting to the back of the prison van and going across the way. There's tears rolling on me face, but tears of relief. Because I knew what I had to face. And I knew that that was the worst part of it over. And I got kind of mentally strong. So I knew that I could face whatever prison was to throw on me. But yeah, it was tough. The unknown was really tough. But like I hands up from the start, I didn't try to blame. I know I took full responsibility of it. It did, it had, it did come to light in our arrogance book that Paddy Power paid the money back. The 1.75 million. They got on post the sign. Paddy the back. Apparently so yeah. We had, I remember around the time when I was being interviewed by the post office afterwards. I agreed to, you know, go in and give them everything about how I done it. They said, would you mind kind of workments to try reclaim some of the money back off the insurance? Because the money was insured. I think there was an excess of court of a million but the rest was insured by an English insurance company. And I remember, yeah, no problem. I'll do whatever it takes. And then they just didn't ask them. And my solicitor thought that was a bit strange that when he tried to contact them, he said that he was the case for that that had been pushed up. So apparently, anyway, what we believe is that shortly before, they offered a court case that the money was paid back and was non-disclosure signed by my post. And I remember Aaron Rogen asked me how I felt about it. And I felt very mixed when I came out on the book and I remember reading, it was in the business post, the article that stayed. And I remember I felt conflicted. I felt angry. I felt a bit relieved that, you know, in some part, even though they hadn't come on and said, "Yeah, we had failings in this case." Because they never commented on the case. That show that part, they took some sort of responsibility. Like I take full responsibility. What I do was wrong. I should have asked her, I should have whatever. Yeah, for so much to be stepped in somewhere. Yeah, it's like I worked in bars for years. And someone's physically drunk. You said you don't deserve them. Yeah, it's still listening back tomorrow or listen, take a break. But with the gambling, it kind of really puts all the onus on the person's take or on break. Like, you know, I need to say for a gambling match, it's our take time to think when the phone stops. Stop. It's different lengths, you know. I know that there is change on the way, but back then it was just like, you know, a double-restrictor count to be a win too much. Yeah, so this is what I wanted to get into. I've heard stories where they put a lot of people. So were you put it up? Were you given like these special exclusive deals and offers and offer trips away? Like, I've heard a lot of people have been brought to Champions League finals. Yeah. So I was VIP. So VIP, we had to be biggest losers. We had to lose over a certain amount. I think it's over 30,000. I don't know exactly much it was. So I was brought to the Europa League final in Dublin. I'm wine and dine, silver, silver, stick. I was brought to the Budweiser Starbeek. I know that if I'd asked for a box seat in Premier League, I would have gone. I was told if I'd asked for a round-world trip, I would have gone. I would have got tickets for the World Cup in Brazil or whatever to keep you a gambling. And that's, so I was definitely brought it up, but I think. So that's what I'm saying, you know, where they fall back on this like, "Oh, when the phone stops, stops, Campbell responsibly." But you know, I think they should have more due, you have care for their clients. Definitely. And step in there, especially when you see the regular penalty. But to have the technology to do it. Exactly. Because as you said, this is what I wanted to touch on was, if you win too much, they step in and be like, "Listen. Because all you hear is someone who never thought this was a myth. You know, this is bleeding, rain man, fairy tales of both. You know, there's professional gamblers out there who are banned. From every book he's open down the country, they can't set up an account. But even if someone does win 100 grand, they use this as a marketing thing. Oh, look, we're after getting cleared out. And it's worth the way it goes because they get more people gambling because of that. Are you going to ask at the start, "Do you think there's a word of arrogance to gamble and being like, "Look, all you knew this was going to happen?" And that's what I'm at the point in this whole story. It's about protecting the future, isn't it? It's about kind of, like, I believe. And for me, it was ego-like, you know, kind of like, I'm brilliant. And in that moment, like, if you get all the losses in that moment, like, you're, I feel like I'm after winning all this money. I'm brilliant, I know what I'm doing. And then at the start, when you're sharing your bets, you know, what are people telling you how brilliant you are? And if you're anyway insecure, not quite yourself, you know, like that kind of. Yeah, this is kind of great. And then there would be arrogance, though, as well. Like, you know, like, there would be. I think anyway, I think there is a little bit of arrogance in that whole scene, anyway. And that's what happened to me. I got really triggered by the numbers overall. You know, statistics and everything. I remember I lost 50 quid on there. The Super Bowl won you betting on how long the national anthem would be. I was like, this is actually ridiculous. This is stupid. Like, why am I even betting on this? Where I bet on it for the sake of saying, like, usually it's over 10 minutes, but this time, it was under 10 minutes, and I lost. And then another time, remember, I'm a Gregor van Mayweather. Yeah. I had a hundred quid on. I had a point to be trying on in the fours, ten seconds. Am I a star? Yeah. He drew a point in like six seconds or something like that. And I remember jumping around the house chaired when a point was trying on everyone. I was like, "What's wrong with you?" I said, "I had a hundred quid on there." And that's when I was kneeling. This is fucking stupid. It's hard to see if you're pointing a hundred quid on, like, you're not yet to win on Saturday. But there's no even buzz out of that, you're getting ten seconds and you're either going to be on a holiday or on a lot. But to think about what you're in play betting is you're going to get ten seconds. But then you're going to do it again. Yeah. You're going to do it. You're going to be saying about one of the ones I had before, just from my moves. Like, Champions League final and Barcelona and many like that. I'd be a bit of a Barcelona fan as well. And I had Rooney and Messi score a ball to 90 minutes. Rooney scores. And Rooney scores. Yeah, Rooney scored. And I jumped open. That's why you don't celebrate that. No, no, no, no, no. Forget myself. And then Messi scored. And then I jumped open. So why you don't? So I had to tell him, I think I had 500 Euro at 8-1-14. I told him I won 500 Euro. I always took the zero off it. And I bought drinks for night and you were great. How would you pick that? Again, the arrogance, the ego. But it is one of them. Like, when you click a big bell and say the boys are down and everybody plays it. Yeah. How would you deal with that? Like, that's what I believe in. Well, it's not. It's just a conflict. Look, everyone. There are many markets like, you know, like, who someone to score after a left foot, after you realize ours wins the gold. You can gamble on whatever you want nowadays. And that's the scary bit. Like I wasn't even talking to someone around it. It's like, just markets are there. And you're kind of going, it's a copy of 150 markets on a football game. Does not need for 150 markets. No, no. But you will find something that will resonate with you in that moment. And the backers have, you know, like, for that one to draw a punch in the first 10 seconds. Like, it's kind of, look, how does anyone even think of that kind of thing. Yeah. And the other one, the other day, it was a bit, a friend of mine don't. And it was a bit builder. And, you know, it's like, so many shots, so many goals, so many cards. And he was way, he had like, four out of five up. And for something like a 10, I was getting back to 50. And I have told him he had four of them up. And I think the next one was like four shots on Tiger. But I have to know there's already three shots on Tiger. So he's waiting for 45 minutes. And then the team was down to 10 men as well. Yeah, waiting 45 minutes for one shot on Tiger, right? So with that 10, I was getting back to 50. The cash out was 200 quid. I know he was thinking, "Dear, we're holding 25% of that bet." No one quite well. Like, there's going to be another shot. Yeah. You think they'd just say, "Right, look, there's the money." Because then they have 45 minutes to bet. But they didn't. They would hold it. And then the shot came in. And anyways, after that. It's all psychological. Like, that thing wasn't there. And I was gambling that cash out. Or a reversal of a draw or a draw reversal. So no, that stuff was there. If you cash out early and then it does come in, you're kind of thinking, "I should've had 250, 225 or 200." So you start chasing the other 50. The whole psychology is mentally behind you. Well, the money takes a second. They go from your account that there's. It takes three days to come the other way. It's all up in their favor, isn't it? Yeah, and. Well, it is always starting to favor. If you win too much, they reduce what you can bet. If you win a lot, they end up going back in. Yeah, like. I know we're kind of like bookie-bash now. But I'm not anti-gaming. Like even what I've gone through, I'm not anti-gaming. But I am very much anti-gaming in harm. And like, we're still seeing the same failings in our service of. You know, there's still a lot of failings. The legislation and regulation is nonexistent really. And we need that to be kind of changed. But, you know, the problem is that there's. You know, there's no appetite for change. You know, we're supposed to have regulation. The heads of the bill were published in 2013. It's still not enacted. The previous record was the alcohol bill was trained in half years. And it was heavy-loving against that. So we need to see those changes so that it is regulated. Like what. Like how it is in the UK. Where there are fines, where there are failings. And I think like it's. It's so set up. Like it's marketed as this entertainment. And that's fine. Like, but if you went to the cinema, or went for a nice meal with your partner, or went to a concert, you wouldn't ask for your money back in the way out. Because you see it as I'm paying for your entertainment. The problem it currently goes very quickly from that to I expect to win my money back. Or I'm doing it to try your money. So like, if you're going to, you know, go to the harsh rest for a day. You might go out of budget of 100, you know what I'm saying? That's my money for a day. If I lose, I'm getting the experience of the harsh rest. And so it's a bit of entertainment. Like my best friend, he texts the week off every year. He has a budget separate. He'll go a few times. And he's not an expression with money. It's his way of enjoying the race. And if he wins, okay, if not. But I think for a lot of people, gambling becomes that way of I expect to win, or I'm doing. Yeah. And that's the psychology. And then if you lose a bit down your chest. And so there's so many of that in builds. That means that it can develop into something a bit more sinister. Yeah. And then if you look at the ease of access, it's often talked about mobile phones. 24 hours a day, you can play as a bet. Gambling on. And it was flicking true sky sports. And the other time I go one up, play mistake on that race. And they come back over. I saw Hong Kong race in the 7 o'clock in the morning. So you can gamble on anything. And you have access to watch it as well. Whereas you'll look back when I was looking at the results coming in the Saturday for noon. It was the old video. A video printer. You know, you see the result coming in a quarter to five. But now, even watching soccer, it's an immersive experience if you have a bet on it. Because you're you're hearing about your show. And there's just something that happened. You're getting that bulls and rush. The whole time true. So it's just something we need. I think it's great that we're having the conversation. And it's great for it likes yourselves. Just showing the light on it. Because it is something that we need to be talking about more. In the same kind of way as we're talking about our own drug. Yeah. I think a praise on a very vulnerable part of society. And because you can bet any amount. And like I have a 10 out of 10 year was not in both. A 10 out of someone else who hasn't got it. It's a lot. It's all relative. Like it's, let's just say it started. It doesn't matter if it's someone spending their pocket money or their sports link. It's, it's relative. Like it's someone spending all their social welfare. And there's no food being put on the table. It doesn't matter if it's 10,000 euro or 10 euro every day. Like it could be only someone saying that's just only five or a day. But the five or a day could be the nappies for the baby or the food. Yeah. So it's relative to how it impacts the person's life. It doesn't have the huge figures. And that's why I'm even when I'm telling the story. I'm always kind of, I think, you know, we talked about that. There's figures thrown around there are huge. It doesn't matter. It's, I've seen, I've, for the last 10 years I've worked in a space. And I've heard horrendous stories that mind doesn't even come close to it. And that they're probably the worst one I've ever heard. It's when a 19 year old student took his own life because of England. 19, just at the legal school, a couple of years. Obviously, developed a problem. True is younger years. Got to the point of 19. It felt the only way he could sort this or fix this was to take his own life. And I wanted to look a few that come out the far side of that. And put so many more. I think there's great charity in the UK called Gamma of the Lives. And the start day I always say is that, you know, by the time we all go out to bed tonight to be one gamma of the suicide in the UK. And that's happening over here as well. So we need to destigmatize it. We need to talk about. We need to look at it from a public health point of view. Where we have to stop people from getting to the point of where I got to. And burning that you're able to pull out or get out. Because I'm sure you'll say your experience watching sports is even more better now. It took me two years to enjoy watching the match again because it was so. Tarnished by Gamma. So it's brilliant that we need to get to a space where there is a place for Gamma in society. But not at the level is that now it's flooded. So Tony, where do you want today now when health teams are just up now? I suppose I work in an area. I work with extern problem in Gamma and our service helps people who present for their own Gamma issues or family members that might present for loved ones issues. I do school talks. We were funded by the HSC2 number of school talks this year. I've been to over 50 schools this year. I'm sharing a story, sharing kind of some education on Gamma. And my daughter is 11 very much part of my life. I get to see her every weekend because I suppose part of the show. I didn't share that I lost my marriage because of the Gamma. And yeah, she's part of my life. I went a new partner down the water, her life is good. I remember it was actually, I think it was in this building where I was doing a previous interview back when the book came out. I said like, I've never been in such a better place in my life because I'm not Gamma but I'm happy in myself. And I remember saying to the personal interview, it's a pity I had to go to hell and back to get there. Well, that's the year on the other side of the nail. It's a great place to go in there. It's a great place to go in. It's a great place to go. It's a great place to go.