Episode 72: Get comfortable saying NO

What's happening in the K9 industry? For all the latest news, views and expert opinions, stay right here for the K9 paradigm. You'll hear from industry leaders, experts, giants of the industry, learned colleagues, moveers and shakers, and the odd, randy guest. Get the latest insights and expert advice from both here and abroad from the people in the know. Now, here are your hosts, Glenn Cook and Pat Stewart. And I'm lofty fullton. And I'm out of here. Hey, it's been a while since we talked about our old mate, Jason Furman. Has he paid his bills? He has paid his bills. Oh, okay. So we should record him and you add. Surely he has a website now. No, he does not. Oh, maybe he's provided a direct phone number people can order through. I'll just check. Nope, no phone number either. I like the way that you're actually pretending to look whether he has provided. So if you want to get in contact with Dation, you still have to do that through Facebook. It's I'm Zwik Doggwip, E-I-N-Z-W-E-C-K. Jason can hook you up with all the things you might be interested in getting, the fire poured meals, which a lot of people are getting and loving. He has home springer products if you're into those. Yep. He has balls, leashes, tugs. Yep. And at the moment, he has a 10% discount on all K9 USA products. That's pretty cool. And I believe he's got a lot of the other stuff that you can use to compete in GRC as well, such as the sleds and the spring poles. Yeah, that's correct. He sure does. Well, it's great that he's a sport taking the world by storm. Yeah. So for into that, we just like train your dog, having a good time. Have a chat to Jason on Facebook at EI-N-Z-W-E-C-K-K. Yep. Send him an inventory via Messenger and get your gear. Get a website, Jason, your Bozo. Yeah. [MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome back to the K9 paradigm. I'm your host, Glenn Cook. And joined in studio is not my regular co-host and international person of mystery, Burydeo Shetty. Hello, hello, hello. Welcome, Burydee. Thanks again for joining us, Well Pats, overseas being a manhole. Oh. Well, last time I've spoken with him, he has a beautiful time. So thank you so much for having me. And I know I will never measure up to the new pad. So I'm just going to be me. Well, I don't know. I think there's people out there who have told me on Times Gone Pass that they prefer the sexy voice of Burydeo Shetty to Pats Stewart. This is a way. I find it hard to believe. But I'm just going to, you know, I think I do me bad to his hymns, so I'm just a guest today. And I want to really enjoy it. And also, sorry for my cough and my horse voice. So it might be a different experience today. No, that's fine. That's good. So what I did want to do quickly before we kicked off is wish Pat a very happy birthday because it is birthday at the moment and he's celebrating that while he's overseas. Yes, happy birthday, Pat. Yeah, happy birthday, mate. Hope you're having a great time over there. And we have a great time over here. Yeah. What I did want to do also before we officially start the show is tell some exciting news on something that we've been discussing over the last month or so. Yeah. And I'll tell you how it came about. Burydeo did her bravery workshop. And she was here at Juryl. And she was very kind enough to include Narell on the workshop. And Narell was discussing her natural therapy side of things and diet and relation to behavior. And it generated a lot of interest. And during that time, birdie and Narell were inside. And we were all having a coffee. And there are a lot of questions floating around about the psychological side of things, the natural side of things like the feeding and how diet affects behavior and how diet affects the body and in relation to health going forward. And also on the actual behavior of a dog. So the three of us were sitting down. I think we were having drinks or dinner at one stage. And we sort of said, why don't we combine a workshop all three of us? I think it was your idea, Verde, at the time. He was to feedback. Like you were tanning. I was really, really, really honored that you came to the workshop and had to look what I do. And I think people just gave me feedback because I had feedback forms and in a feedback forms, it was said a few times, hey, why don't you all three do something to get it? And then we started talking about it. Because I think it's so nice that we can play. We three can play it out. And we can do all have a specialty and bring it to the table. Yeah, I really liked the idea of it. I thought it was something that hasn't been done before. And it's unique. So I think that what we're planning on doing is going to be a first of its kind. That it encompasses everything. It encompasses the mind, the body, and the behavior side of things, which effectively is what we're basing our workshop on. So at some stage, we're going to sit down and further plan this. And then we're going to put it out there for dates. So if you're interested in talking to us further about it, we will look to do this nationally. And who knows? Maybe beyond. You never know. I'm keen for anything. And I think it's so cool. I'm really excited because it was so nice having the RELDA. Like I felt so privileged to have it there. Because she is such an expert in her area. And it was so nice to have a really knowledgeable person talk about that. And then you were on my teach in the NETF course. I noted I loved the way you teach and how you show things. So I think it will be just so good because we have experts in all three fields. And we can come together and help the dogs and the dog owners. All right. Now it's my turn to hold your pocket and tell you that I thought the bravery workshop was absolutely fantastic. It was what a lot of people in this industry need, especially considering that a lot of people don't realize how close to burnout they are. I talked about this not long ago prior to-- I put a message up. We've talked about this on the show. But I did put a message up to saying that I was really struggling with how much work I was doing. And it got to a point where I really wasn't enjoying much at all. It wasn't depression. I made that clear. I was saying to people, I wasn't feeling depressed. I know what depression feels like. Unfortunately, I've had-- I've dabbled in that before, which wasn't pleasant. It was just pure fatigue. And pure fatigue can lead to depression. And it can lead to other problematic areas. And there's a lot of people that are doing the same sort of thing. They're setting up a small business. They're very challenged and stressed by everything that's going on. Not only do they have to go out and train the dogs, but they've got to do all the book work. They've got to do all the appointments. They've got to do all the follow-up. They've got to take the complaints. They've got to take the queries. So there's a lot mounting on just that job alone. And I mean, I know that you'll know stranger to that birdie. You're-- No, I'm a very slow learner in that department, unfortunately. I mean, now I'm pretty good. But-- and I think that's-- we'll also talk a little bit about the topic today. Why the topic today? So important, because this topic that we're going to talk in a second is a major reason why people burn out. Yeah. And that's something that I guess we need to focus more on. And probably look for the telltale signs of why it's occurring, how it's occurring, and how to start putting systems in place to be more fundamentally aware of it. And it's the same thing for me. I mean, even today, the whole week I've been highly stressed because we're doing some really exciting things at work. We've got a lot going on. I can't talk about right now. But it's up to my workload, considerably. I don't mind that because I can cope with it. But I need downtime. And I need to know when to say when. And that's an important thing for a lot of people is making sure that you do have a concept of when things are getting too stressful for you and being up to speak up. And that's what I really loved about your workshop was because you were giving people active tools for them to know when things were getting too stressful, how to identify what it looked like, and how to almost bring themselves into a point of meditation by dropping their anchor. And I liked it. I really liked what it stood for and how it helped a lot of people in our industry because we've talked about this again in another show. But the dog industry really seems to get people highly emotional and highly stressed. It is. I like having you on the show because it seems to bring about balance and education for people when they're at that time in their life. Thank you because this is a real core mission of mine because I would like that people know more about stress management and how they can help yourself and tackle some of the myths that they have around it and also making them aware, hey, if you're not well, your dog won't be well-eater, your business won't be well-eater. And I'm fortunate in a position that I can talk about this because I have done it wrong. I've tackled it the wrong way at the beginning of my career. So now I had to pay the price for it. And now I'm thankfully at the other end. But my business looks very different now than I thought it would be. And it's also about having the values in place that you know what you values are, what you need as a human to be okay in life. And that might be really different to your neighbor or to your colleague, but that you also have to bravely to stand up for that. So you know, like I'm trained as a clinical psych. Most of my clinical psych colleagues they have huge practices that they employ, 10, 20 people. They work a lot. That's not what I do. I'm a one-man show. I love it that way. I do high quality work. I have great outcomes. But I like my independence. I like that I can set my own hours, that I can do dog stuff on the side. But that's me. I'm the only person I know who does dog stuff and psychology at the moment. So you have to also have done a courage to do that and I hope that people at the workshop blend. It's okay to be you It's okay to follow your values Because I think society puts so much pressure on people at the moment and people are really all the time feeling They're not doing enough or not good enough or then then when they're getting their cycle They actually lose track of that they have to put energy. Yeah, but like you lose track of where you have to put effort in and they're not And you know the feedback of the workshop was amazing like I We had over 30 people attending and I loved that the group was so diverse We had trainers from all sorts of backgrounds. We had experienced trainers young trainers groomers We had vet nurses and it was just such a nice environment and then the feedback forms people really talk a time They're very often more two or three pages. They loved it because they said it's so nice to talk with other people And it was I tried to create a safe environment But at the same time Help them with stress management by also increasing their stress levels during the workshop with certain exercises and coaching them through it So it's a very hands-on workshop One thing I really liked about it 30 was there was wonderful energy in the room You're very well prepared for what you were talking about you spoke with clarity and you spoke with passion and Before we turn the mics on there was one thing that you and I were just talking about which I know you included To quite a degree in your workshop and that was about authenticity and we just literally just before we've turned everything on You and I were sitting down about how hard it is to be authentic in this day and age and I find that that is one of the things that That really zaps the energy from people. Yes, it is all the masks and all the Yeah, I feel that you've just got to be so guarded and so careful and so strategic about your conversation That you can't drop your guard. Sorry, you can do with that But people feel they can't and that's what you were discussing with with people is that Not that they have to go out and speak their mind with everybody But how to deal with that in a better way But when you're feeling so intense that when you've when all those emotions are really stacking down and weighing down on you That you have a coping mechanism to stop Breathe in for a little bit drop your anchor Re-gather your thoughts think about Alternate strategies and then work within and and I loved it. I really did. I love the message. I love the way I could see a change in the way people were in the room. I could see when they first came in You know, you could see people that were stressed and were weighed down and I really believe that they felt They got the meaning of the message. I hope so and I hope so because it's not therapy in a can Sorry to interrupt it's not therapy in a can. It's not like you weren't implying that it was an instant fix It's like with dog training. It's the same concept. It's like playing a musical instrument You have to work at it. You have to spend the time there to make it sound and to make it appear That it's actually working you have to put the time and energy into doing it and and that's the only way that people are gonna get results in things It is and I think a sort of concept of to work should be also Set up like a dog training class like the exercises are very similar that what dogs would have to go through because in the end I do want that the dogs benefit from us being less stressed You know like I'm one that it has a flow on effect and and I can't give people recipes You have to find out what works for you because you and I are so different, you know and I I'm really I'm a bit I'm blushing here because it's so nice when someone appreciates the work you've done into it because you know It's such a unique concept no one else is doing it. So you constantly thinking I'm a doing the right things I do it differently. Everyone has a different opinion. So Thank you for your feedback. Oh pleasure. I really enjoyed it and I'm glad I came to it to be honest It's in part your one of the reasons why I started writing a book. Oh wow Yeah, it's it's been in me for a long time. It's different than it is about dogs, but it's also about It's about you and your relationship with yourself impacting how you Would be a better dog owner by getting that shit sorted out first In part, it's a story about my own life and the things that I've had to identify with and how I've impacted Dogs in the past by not being my entire self if that makes sense Yeah, you have your whole been there. Yeah, so people like you and lofty Fulton who wrote a book about it It's himself read book Honestly, I didn't feel brave enough to put it into words and now I started when I was on holidays Recently I started putting things in the words and it was it's a little bit vulnerable when you start talking about yourself Because then you're thinking to people really want to read this they do I read I mean you I was a large I shared you the first time yes, and yes, we do want to read it And but it's true. It is a vulnerable place and My friend and Rachel she's a really wise woman and she writes a lot and she told me if there are no tears in the writer down No tears in the reader and so you know you will what are you put in emotions is what the reader will get out of it and It's worth it. Yeah, that first chapter really took me a lot to I actually had to walk away for quite a few times to come back to it It was an intense session and I struggled a lot to be honest I was actually quite fortunate myself Narell and several other people we went out to dinner with Helen and lofty and Prior to lofty releasing the book which is doing fabulous by the way like it's such a good book and lofty is getting the the notoriety He deserves he's a wonderful man very generous very loving He's a beautiful human being and I really appreciate both Helen and lofty not only is he the voice of our podcast He offered to do that for us. He was very supportive when he read that to us when we were at dinner I don't think there was a closed mouth at the table I think everybody was just sitting there with their mouth open like listening it was so captivating It was lofty's got this amazing voice like he really has a beautiful voice and You can tell the passion and just the impact of things that happened to him in his life And he was really really authentic in what he spoke about I mean when you talk about bravery being born with dwarfism and being picked on so intensely through his life and able to come through that the other side and tackling all the problems that he did and falling into deep depression and Being able to struggle through it and finding the love of a very supportive and beautiful person like Helen helped him put together the words that described what he was going through and I think that if people read that With the intent that lofty put it out I think they'll find it very helpful and very therapeutic and it was such a privilege to have that shared with and as I said It was it's people like him that helped me find the courage to do it myself because I mean for the last I Think ten years that Narell and I've been together. I've been talking about writing a book and Narell's saying Are you gonna start that book? You're gonna start that book and I was sitting in the moldives and We were sitting inside one day and I was at the computer tapping away and Narell said what are you doing? I said I'll start with the ball. Oh wow. That's yeah, she's so supportive so supporting. I love your wife I know you do. I'm always worried that she leaves me. It's gonna be a figure Well, I wouldn't worry about it. I'm very happily married and so she's But no, she's a very special person. She's such a gem. Yeah, I'm very lucky And you know, it was so nice also that when you have friends when you do the first work So when you put your heart and soul into it like you with your book You're very worried about the feedback. It was so nice when you look in the room You have friends that you give a smile back or you know and it was so nice that I knew I'm here And at the end of the day no matter what happens people will be there for me And I think that is so nice and I think I wanted to thank you for that Absolute pleasure. I was as you know, I've been to a lot of workshops. I'm very supportive of them You are very supportive. I try and encourage genuine people. I believe that people who do workshops are artists And I believe that they put a lot of heart and soul into it. I've been to a hell of a lot of dog industry workshops and a lot of business ones as well Some have been great. Some have been not so great and usually when I find that people aren't really preparing and don't really They're sort of doing it for the wrong reasons. They're doing it more of a monetary thing that they are doing it because they believe in what the message that they're putting through the education They're giving to people like and one of the things I liked about you and many of the other people that I've been to is authenticity And absolute passion and a real take home message like there's there's a lot for people to To go home and think on what what was just given to them and when I can see that people have given everything like they really have that you can just see it they look like a A used tube of toothpaste afterwards. They just look like they've been squeezed right of everything out out of it Even when you've finished yours, you were so exhausted. I was so glad my husband Dan was there because he picked me up and he was helping me and you know had Friend's there and it's true. You do give everything you know and I think out of people do too you do too Like you know when you do you in any TF? I'm completely exhausted after NDTF like I can barely speak because As I say to all the students and I know you did this on your workshop and I know Pat's doing it with his and many other people that are Fabulous industry experts. You give so much of your heart and soul and you're so passionate about it by the time you finished you you are Mentally and physically depleted. There's been times at lunchtime where I'm doing NDTF where I actually don't even come into eat I set my stopwatch and I go and lie in the chair and snooze for an hour so I can I can regenerate and get back to it So I don't miss anything and don't skip things that I find are really important I need my brain to be working and I need to make make sure that I'm giving everything I've got. And I feel when I watched you, you gave everything you got. And I saw you just fall into a heap at the end of it when everybody had left and everybody had gone and you said all you goodbyes, I could just see you go, "Oh, yeah, it wasn't bit like that." And it will be like, that's just how I am. My supervisor, he always says, "Can you just stop giving 110?" And can you just give 70? And I'm like, you know me too well. It's not gonna happen. It's unfortunate how I am. But it's even when you come and do the podcast with us. Like I can tell how excited you are and how nervous you are to sit down in the chair because you believe in your topic and believe in giving people a message so much. That's, I mean, seriously, that is remarkable. - Well, let's see what we comes out of today. - Speaking of, we've rambled long enough. I'm often accused of being a rambulist. So what are we talking about today? - Sorry, at the workshop. This was a very first experience to me and I did not know how to handle it. I gave people a choice of engaging in an exercise and the exercise was around the word no. And the exercise was that people had, they learned how to drop their anchor and the goal of the exercise was that they assertively could tell a person, please, don't approach while staying calm and relaxed. So that's what was the idea of it. And there was mutiny. There was a very clear no, we don't wanna do this exercise. And people clearly told me, no, we don't wanna do it. And I'm like, what? They're like, no, it makes us so uncomfortable saying no to other people. - Wow. - And I'm like, I was a bit shocked. And I let them get away with it instead of challenging them on it, but I realized a word no is quite a difficult word this time and age. And in especially in our industry, no has a bit of a way to it, especially in a wavy tree, dogs or whatever, but that's not what I wanna focus on. I wanna focus on human to human interaction. And then maybe, you know, kind of like the flow on effect from that onto our dogs. But to me, it was, I was amazed how anxious people were to say no to another person. And I didn't ask them to be aggressive about it. All I wanted to say is no, don't approach me. Stop with your dog. It was not, you know, how Tyler does to face in owner drill, like with the dog, what is it called? Yeah, he has basically the dog, owner with this dog approaching out of person, tells you how the person to stop and then massively the approaching person backs off. It's not the same exercise, but it's a long-neck concept and people didn't wanna do it. So for me, that shows there is so much work to be done around this, because how can you help a reactive dog to have trust in you if you can't say the word no confidently? And with the level of assertion, right? Just a word no falls into the assertiveness category. And assertiveness is a topic that we have coaches and therapists see all the time. And we talked about burnout before. You have a much higher, in my opinion, a much higher burnout risk if you can't speak up for your own needs. Because if you can't say no, you are either being aggressive, like you are violating the other person's rights and you make sure that your needs are being met or you're being passive. So the other person's needs are being met, but your needs are not being met. And if you are passive around it and you never get your needs met, you're gonna end up in a burnout because you will always over-shoot your resources and you will lose the level of who you are. You don't know who you are. If you don't know what your boundaries are, how would you know what's authentic and not? Could you imagine a world where just say no to drugs wasn't allowed to happen because you shouldn't say no? Could you imagine a world where women's rights weren't being treated well because you weren't allowed to say no to a man who was being sexually aggressive towards you? It's a bit terrible. I mean, seriously, what's the problem? I mean, people should be allowed to say no to things that they disapprove of. It is healthy. And it's, I mean, and it's again, when we're talking about the spectrum of balance, it does bring balance into play because I don't have a problem saying no, I used to. I did used to. And funnily enough without sounding like a broken record, I'm actually talking about that in my book why I didn't feel comfortable saying no earlier. I mean, look, to be honest, when I was a kid, I was very intimidated by a lot of things. Yes, and that's what we're going to talk about. There are reasons why people don't like so I don't know about consequence. Well, I'm not going to jump the gun on you, but yeah, I find it incredibly important and very comforting to say no to people when I'm not happy with things. And it was, I always felt very silenced as a young fellow, but now when I don't like something, I'm quite happy to say no, I'm not doing it. I don't want to do it. One of the things for me, I guess, is that I don't feel like I need to fit in with the incredible. I'm quite happy with being by myself. I like being with people, I like being social, I like being, you know, it's nice to be loved and it's nice to be appreciated. I enjoy all of those things, but I also enjoy time by myself as well. And that means time by myself, not with Narell, not with anybody. I'm okay with that. I don't see that as being a problem. I don't feel like I'm being a social misfit by that. If I don't feel like going out or doing something, I'm quite happy to say no rather not. When some of the guys are going, I'm motorbike rides. If the weather looks shit, I might just say no, I'm not going. And I'll say, you know, come on and put a little bit of peer-group pressure on me to try and coax me out. And I'll say no. And I stand firm on that. I'm quite happy with saying no and having my reasons why or just feeling comfortable and saying no. And I think that is so important because being able to say no is a skill and you need to practice that skill. And because in the end, at the end of the day, assertiveness is a communication style, right? It's being able to express your feelings, your thoughts, your beliefs and in an end opinions, in a manner that doesn't violate your rights or other rights. It's just how it is, right? It takes experience and practice. So very often we know that when a person has not used a word, no, they will overshoot it, they will either communicate too often or with a too harsh tone. It takes practice to find the right level of being hurt. But I think it's so important that people really realise being able to say no is a fundamental skill to have in life. There's nothing shameful about it, there's nothing to be guilty about it. It's what you will need to be mentally and physically okay. Yeah, and I don't think people need to be so offended when they hear somebody saying no either. I mean, you can say no with a smile. You don't have to say, as you pointed out before, it doesn't have to be something said in aggression. And it often isn't. It's just an alternate to the question that was being asked. Yes, and that's what I thought about. When I prepared it, I thought I should tell people what assertiveness skills actually look like, how to feel like. Definitely. Because I think people misunderstand that being assertive usually doesn't have a negative consequence. It's just how it is. It's just neutral. So then you communicate your feelings, your thoughts and beliefs and open and honest manner. That's when you are assertive. You know, this is just what it is. And it has certain verbal characteristics. So for instance, when you're assertive in a good way, like when you're right in the middle between getting your own meets met and the other not being aggressive, your voice is firm but relaxed. You speak fluently, don't have many hesitations. It's a steady even pace. Your tone is middle range, rich and warm. You're sincere and clear. It's not too loud. It's not too quiet, just normal. You use eye statements like I like, I want or I don't like. You use positive needs, what you would like. You are cooperative. You are empathetic. You make suggestions like you're trying to work on and compromise if it's not easy. And you try to be constructive with your feedback if someone says, oh, I can't do that. I can't accept what you're wanting. Because when you assertive, that doesn't mean that you get your needs always met. That's the difference. If you're aggressive, you at all costs get your needs met when you're assertive. Sometimes it's a compromise, but it's about trying. It's being a team player at the same time. - Yep. - And it does a willingness to explore other solutions, but it's about, I want to get my needs met and I'm going to respect yours. And you try to be a receptive listener, you try to have eye contact, you quite open, you can even smile when you're assertive. There's nothing wrong with that. And you try to relax. And you're thinking, style, like your mindset is really, I want, I want let you take advantage of me, but I want to take you for being different. Like I want to be, I want to be attacking you for who you are. We all want to get our needs met. But it doesn't mean I have to compromise on what I need. - I think that's one of the facts of life is that most organisms want what's best for them. And it's not an unusual concept. I mean, being a human with, we're slightly different because I think humans can be benevolent. Humans can be quite wicked and evil in a lot of ways, but we can be very benevolent and kind and supportive and put others first. But at the end of the day, there's a lot of times where humans can be very, I'll give an example of what I'm trying to say. There's a lot of times where people do nice things for other people, but they've got a camera running so they can show social media what they're doing. So I think that even though what they're suggesting was a nice thing, it was gratitude for them. They wanted to be seen in a light of being a wonderful person and I'm doing great things for other people. Why did there need to be a camera in the room when they were giving people handouts or support or money or anything like that? Like if you really were doing it for genuine reasons, wouldn't you want it? So other people didn't have to, you on the back and tell you what a great person you are. Like, do you understand what I'm saying about life? Does it come back to true altruism doesn't exist because you always get to pay out from it. Like, you know, like every time when you do something nice, you get paid at the same time because, you know, human connection is what motivates us most of the time. It's a core basic need. Yeah. And yeah, and it's true. Like, you know, this is why you also have to say no. And I think very often we are given double messages. When I say no and I can be kind about it, I mean no. You know, this is a boundary, right? And there's lots of myths around that. Like, when I talk to my clients in a coaching process, it's a very often I'm surprised, but myths they have around to what no and having a boundary. So very often they feel like generally they're being assertive is a way of being aggressive because that's how they've learned it as a kid because it was overused. That wasn't assertive. That was being aggressive. Yeah. So they think, oh, if I'm assertive, I always get what I want. No, you don't. You can try and you can have boundaries and you should be able to get to a process where you need to be met, but maybe have to make a compromise. The other myth that very often people have is that I have to be assertive in every situation. No, that's not true. Sometimes it's a given a take. But for instance, with certain clients, I'm very willing to have a compromise, but with certain clients, I have to very clear-cut boundaries around when they can approach me how long my sessions go or how quickly I reply to my emails because they might have unrealistic expectations. And you talked about in you talked about in the podcast about expectations from clients, right? So you have to have a boundary about it and have to manage it otherwise you're going to drive yourself mad. So being assertive about the way you work or your framework is not aggressive. That's just the way of being okay. But being in sales, it's a common thing and I've seen it mean quite a few times on social media is that another way of looking at the word "no" is next opportunity. So when somebody says "no" to you, move on. It's time to look at the next opportunity and sometimes "no" is "no" for that day. It's not "no" permanently. Yeah. There could be people who say, when they say "no" to you, they might say "no" period. So that's the end of the discussion. I'm not willing to open up that topic anymore. Yeah. And I think that's okay. We are not dare to accommodate needs for everyone. Correct. I think what I've learned because I did burn out, not just once. Is that the more specific I am, who my clients are, the better I will be. So I turn away a lot of people usually. My selection process is pretty strong. I'm very specific. I'm really a fan of over the years what I enjoy doing, what I'm good in, what fits my daily structure, what fits my family. And then I don't feel the grouch going to work because I have an environment that I'm agreeing to and that I want to be in. So I don't feel being taken advantage of. And therefore I'm not a victim of my own environment because I'm setting the tone. That's one thing, one of the many things I love about you, Bertie, is that you don't set this picture of I'm an iconic person of perfection. You talk about your vulnerabilities. You talk about things that have affected you or your open and empathetic for other people to notice that about you. And I think that's wonderful because I'm going to walk up with a massive head. Oh, no, let me tell you. Let me say because I think unless you understand these things and it's not always the case, it doesn't have to be this case every single time. But I feel like unless you have experience in it, you can talk about it but you don't understand it. And again, it was like to drag this old bug bear out. It's like having depression. Having depression and talking about what depression is is two entirely different things. Yeah, different things. They're entirely different things. And I only knew that when I actually had depression was what it actually is and how it feels and how it brings you down. And that was also what I have to understand about that. That was only my depression. It wasn't the same as everybody else's because there are varying levels of, it's like Dante's seven rings of hell or whatever it is. You know, it's some people experience with such deep lows that they almost feel like they're completely incapable of doing anything. Well, I mean, to a degree, I was functioning when I had it where other people don't function well. That levels of depression. That's right. And I can't say that what I had was exactly like what anybody else has. And that's what I see that, and again, that's what I like about what you portray is that you don't come in saying, you know, look at me. I've never had anything wrong with me. You talk about things that have impacted you, things that have rocked your world since you've been a child and so forth. And I like that because it's relatable. You actually appear as a human being to people rather than just, I've spoken to people before, not only for myself, but just out of general interest. And they're very detached from real life because they want to be seen as this figure. And I don't know how all therapy should work. I don't know how all feedback should work, but some of it feels very unreal to me. It feels very distant and very cold and very uncaring. Whereas I find that if people have somebody that they can actually reach out to and make a physical connection with them, that at least you have something to hang on to. I think, you know, it's so interesting that you mentioned this. I think you have to be the person who you are. I can't do therapy or I can't do coaching in a different way. That's just how I am. But it does have consequences. So for instance, three years ago, I had to accept I can't do as many coaching clients with therapy clients as my colleague because I am just present in the room, like I'm just who I am, right? But my friends can see 30 people a week. I can't do that. I can only work part time. But that's okay. Because you just need, that's what I mean with you. Because you've learned to say no, right? Yes. You had to say no and you had to learn to not feel guilty about getting your needs met. Like okay, so maybe my structure of business is very different. Yes, maybe my intake might be different, but that doesn't make it worse. It's just how it is. And a lot of people like that. Like my, it's really interesting. My dropout criteria for the clinic for my practice is very low because we have a pre-selection process. So people usually stick around. But I have a lot of different problems than other therapies to have. And I think that's what I want to say. Saying no usually brings vitality. If you can't say no in your life, you will corner yourself. You will, you want to end well. Like if you need to learn to say no in a assertive way so that our needs are being met, but also other people don't feel threatened by it. It's just compromise thing. But don't feel that when you say no, something bad will happen. Because what a lot of people do these days is when a request comes to them and I think that's again with the dog industry very often around a business is they accommodate people really quickly. Like they, they, they, they really worry that the business will dry up if they don't say yes. And I understand and if you have a new business standing might be a bit of a different time. But overall you will have to learn to say no because if you accommodate everyone, you, you will be tired all the time. Your family will not know who you are. You want to have time for your friends. You want to have time for your personal pleasures. You will become very one sided. And I think it's all important that what we all also very often see if a person has neglected their own needs over and over and over, they start avoiding their work. Like for me, I learned that for me it's always a sign of how many emails do I avoid at the end of the day, how tired I am. Am I avoiding my work? And in, in the work I do there are techniques that are taking more energy than other techniques and my wording to hard work. So for me that's always a measurement to see, hey, am I tired? Am I, can I still engage or not? Or how do I relate to my husband? You know, am I really nice to my customers and they get everything and I come home and I have a short fuse with my family because there I need to get my needs met. You know, like, like I think that's, if you have a partner, it's always good to talk to them, hey, do you feel like still I take care of our relationship? It's so easy to go like business is fun, it's very rewarding, you know, it's your passion. But if that's your only goal and you neglect all the other areas in your life, then you cornered so you need to say no because your life is more than just work. I love it. Yeah. It took me so long to learn that I wish I wasn't in the fastest tune in this. But um. Can I tell you a funny story? Sure. I actually say no a lot to clients who instantly want me to see them in their dog. And there's just sometimes where I can't do it. Whereas before I used to do it quite a lot, I'd try and book it in even at my own demise, whereas physically depleted from doing everything I have to do around here. And it's funny industry, the dog industry sometimes. I think people, there's very much a need to want to be the most popular or the most loved or the most appreciated or the busiest trainer that people just are almost obsessed with having to be seen all the time. But I've learned to say no to a lot of people if I can't do it or sometimes if I don't want to do it. If I don't want to do it, I'm doing the same thing now. So no, one of my trainers, yes, she was booking a lesson in for me the other day because it is a problem dog. It's an aggressive dog issue. And the lady said, you know, like if Glenn can see me, I'll do any day that he can see me. And I said, I'll do it this Friday. So it was going to be today. And she said, oh, I can't do it Friday. And Jess goes, listen lady, trying to get a lesson with Glenn. She said, let me put it this way. It would be easier to see the prime minister than getting a lesson with Glenn. She said, "You better make sure that the next time he gives you a time slot that you take it, otherwise it's not going to happen." Now, I'm not trying to be exclusive or elusive to people. I don't want people to think I'm rude or anything like that, but you know, like I've got a lot on. And if I do make time with people, it's because I'm genuinely trying to fit them in and get things to happen. But I just found that really funny that Jess said that because she's, let me read the email and yeah, I kind of laughed at it, thought that was funny. It was very cute. But I think it's also so good. I think it's also so important how we do manage our time. You've got to. You must. You must make. And I think if, I mean, some people in a position that they have a receptionist or a co-worker who helps them with, but if you take your own calls and your own payments, I'd highly encourage you that you have certain times of the day where you're only checked that if you are slaved to your phone, you're going to be so drained. Like you're going to feel like the business is running you, but the idea of a business is that you're running the business. So even as a psychologist who gets very critical calls sometimes, I only check my phone three times a day. You know, I tell people this is what's going to happen, but I'm not dare. I don't even check my business from from Friday, three o'clock till Monday morning. Because I'm like out of business. That's just how it is. That's what my family needs for me to be okay. So I encourage you. And that's when you need your time. Yes. I need a lot of downtime too. So I think it's really important that people, if they feel like they have a risk to burn out and please listen, I was such a slow learner. I've been told this, but please listen, set your boundaries how you want your business to run in the long term. So that you set the right expectations for your customers. And believe me, people can handle it. They can wait. It's okay to let people wait so that you are okay. Because if you can run your business only for one or two years because you're going to be so tired afterwards, that's not that's not vitality. This is where authenticity comes into it. Don't you agree? I think that if if you're telling people where and how and why, then I already may do like, don't you agree? That was very narcissistic. But I think if you're with your authenticity, I think if you say to people, this is how it's going to be because X, Y and Z. Like you explain why you can't do it, then people accept it more rather than just being evasive. Yeah, I don't sometimes even explain it. I just say this is how it is. Yeah. And if they say, oh, I'm like, yeah, I have a private life too. So, but you need to know that those boundaries are like a good business, educated to customer, so it's your needs. Yeah. It really works because you have to think about long-term prosperity in the end. You know, it's easy to run a business for six months and then that's why a lot of small businesses don't last because you run yourself into the ground too quickly. Yeah. So give us an example of how you would say no to somebody. How would that look? For what topic? Well, let's say, for example, somebody wanted to book a therapy session in with you and you're already busy. Okay. You had a lot on your plate and you had a very demanding person who felt that they should be considered a priority. Yeah. Happens twice a day. Yeah. It happened. I know what it's like. I get the same sort of thing. So for you, let's say, for example, okay, I'm the person and I come to you and I say, Bertie, I'm, you know, like I'm struggling, I really need someone to speak to right now, but it needs to be this way because next week is a nightmare for me. I've got kids sports and everything I've got to go on and it would just be totally impractical to my life to see you next week. And I've got Friday free and Friday is really good for me at about two to three times. Like it would work perfectly for me. Well, Glenn, you have a lot on. Like you really have a lot on. I can see that you're really stressed right now. Wow. Thank you so much for being curious about what I do and wanting to work with me. I really hear you. Your life is really full on. But I'm just having a look at my diary. The earliest I can give you is the fifth of a main on a Wednesday at four o'clock. Oh, you can't do anything sooner than that. No, I'm sorry, Glenn. Really? No. But I'm really struggling here. I'm really. No. And I can see that I'm really sorry. I can give you contact of other people. But if you want to work with me who, you know, I'm very aware of your problems. I've heard them. I can really help you with this. That's the earliest I can do it. I can pop your note of a cancellation list, but it's quite unlike level. Something comes up. That's how it's going to be. There you go. And that's how it is. Yeah. So I give them an option like they don't need to hang around. But if you want to work with me, that's how it's going to be. Yeah. And I like that the idea of giving an option to always give an option. Like I'm like, I'm not desperate for you. Like, I think it's really important that we understand that when people are given an option, they're very often going like, Oh, you're not desperate for that business. And that's okay. Like I hardly ever book a person in under four weeks. Most people have to wait a month to see me. Yeah. And that's a good selection criteria for me because then I know they really want to work with me to have done their homework. Yeah. I get to see what I want to see. And that's okay. But if not, that may not a good match anyway. Yeah. No, I agree. Well, I feel everything you said then was practically what I would suggest to people who want to do it. If I'm busy and I can't do it, I'll give them an alternative person to see. I don't like turning away business. I really don't. But if I can't do it and it's not working in line with the person, I'll give them alternate people that they can go and see. And then they can take their choice. So they do as you've suggested. They wait for it and they book the session in or they go and make alternate arrangements with somebody else who can give them what they want right there and then. Yeah. And because some businesses do specialise in that, like some businesses are bigger than me. So there's not, it's not right and wrong. You just need to understand what type of business do you want to have. So I'm right after long term clients, then short and sweet clients. I want to have long term clients. But that's okay. But I'm just saying, it's really interesting what happens when you're not assertive because to see real effects when you're not assertive, right? One of the common ones is that you have really low self esteem because you constantly ignoring your personal needs. Like if you're telling your body over and over, I don't matter, my emotions don't matter. That's a very, very clear path to mental health problems. Because your body has a alarm system. It wants to tell you how you're tired. You're sad. You don't want to go to work constantly. It's not just a bad day. It's not just Monday. It's constantly the body tries to communicate with you. So you need to listen. And if you constantly ignore that and constantly give up on that, you're self-sacrificing yourself. And I know we all need contractors or small business owners. We need to be smart about our business. But you need to see it in a long term. If you're mentally and mentally, you want to go to work anyway. That's right. Yeah. I agree with that. Which is why people more frequently take what's called a personal health day or a personal day. And I've had staff that have rang me up or sent me a message to saying, "Hey, look, I really need a personal day today." And rather than fight them on it or try and make them explain themselves, just, yep, no worries. Let me know when you're ready to head back in. And usually just a day off, just a line bed and watch Netflix or go shopping or have a message or whatever they want to do. Play with their dog. Hopefully that gives them the ability to re-center and focus back on their work. Because you're right, Bertie, I totally agree. You can't be your best self when you're already depleted. When you feel at half mass, there's no point in trying to push yourself through it because more than often it makes you feel worse. It is. And I think, you know, especially working with dogs. Dogs understand when we send a double message. And I think that's why so many dog owners very often struggle with the dogs. Because if you say no to the dog, whatever training method you use, if you want a dog to not do something, it doesn't matter what type of consequence you choose. The dog knows, do you mean it or can I play you on that? You know, like, if you're very often seen in obedience classes, double messages to person, say as to where to know, but the body language doesn't say no. The intent doesn't say no. And very often that's too tired to do it, or just follow a protocol. So you really need to be aware that you don't send double messages. You always, I always say, have attention to your intention. The dog probably will react more to the annotated emotional transmission afterward. No, than a word no. So very important for dog owners and trainers. Well, the other thing that's a little bug bear of mind is that people have been encouraged not to say no to their dog. Well, that's, see, I, as a psychologist, have to train people to say no because it's an universal law to know you need to say no to be emotionally well. Because it relieves anxiety. If you have a kid, you need to give the kid structure what's, what is expected of you, what not? It clears the head. So much less responsibility. Dog Luna, right? Once I introduced a word no because I started off as positive only. She was so confused because she wasn't so slice chief. She felt like she had to fear the world out by herself. But if I say no, that's not accepted, she's like, okay, not accepted easy moving forward. It's healthy. It is. And I mean, our close personal friend, Dr. Jordy Peterson, Jordy, that's how that's how close and personally Scott, we've re dubbed him even Robert Sapolsky is Bob Sapolsky now. Yeah. Anyone who's got the short list is part of the close personal family group now. So they get a nickname, Bobby Sapolsky, Jordy Peterson. But Uncle Jordan often talks about, well, in his book and often in YouTube Clipsities put out, he talks about the relative need for parents not to be children's best friends, but to be their guide in life. Yes. To give them structure. Yes. And to teach them, yes and though, yes, we call that in a so as a coach, you have to have their tutorials so we constantly have to use and that's not necessarily the most good feeling tools because you you know there's a consequence, but they're called limits adding, an empathetic confrontation. And you know, we very often have to set limits with people and that is so that they have a better quality of life. Like this is what we are by all the mental health organizations are allowed to do and need to do because that's just life, you know, and you need to know your limits, you need to know what's accepted or not. You have to have the ability that you can deliver the message to the level that the person can hear it, like so that you know the right amount of force or the right amount of language. Like I'm very receptive to feedback, I don't need to be yelled at to be understood. I'm quite sensitive, but some people might need to hear in a stronger words, right? So you have to learn to deliver your messages, well to read your dog, human, but limit setting is normal. It needs to happen. It's healthy. And I think this is, it's so fascinating to understand why we become underserved. Like I've spent all the last few days. I'm like we are born as babies, babies are assertive, they're crying when they're hungry. So how do we get, how do we lose that, right? Like the literature is very clear that we are born assertive. So underservediveness is a learned style of behavior and thinking. So that's when the environment comes into it, right? So when babies are hungry, they cry and then they gradually adapt to behavior to fit in with the response from the family and their parents. And so for instance, if you're family or your peer group dealt with conflict by yelling at you or making you feel guilty or argue with you, then you have maybe have learned to avoid conflict because it had a really negative consequence. Or if your family told you that you should always please others before yourself, then you might find it hard to be assertive about your needs because it would have been, you would have been guilt tripped afterwards again. Or maybe you finally believed that you should never express negative emotions or discomfort and that they ridiculed you or ignored you, right? So they all of a sudden, their messages, how you need to not import, nor this is how you deal with them by avoiding them or putting other people's first. And I think that's so important that we know we are born assertive. Dogs are assertive creatures. If you see a mom playing with their pap, she is very assertive and teaches a good amount of it. She teaches boundaries, right? And I can see that Manluna went to the daycare that she was the reason why she did so well was because she was paired with a really good adult dog. And she showed her that's accepted, that's not accepted. And she could relax. She's like, I don't need to figure it out. Dogs are very adapt at operant learning from a very young age because they're taught well by their parents who guide them. Yes. And so does nature effectively. To teach you that there is no fluff and molly coddling in nature, it's either you learn to thrive and survive or you die. It has consequences. And it has consequences. It has consequences. Like if you don't want to, there's always a negative consequences. And usually when people come to see me, the consequences will be severe. You know, this is not a joke at this stage. So if you're listening to this podcast and you go like, well, for me saying, no, is a really difficult thing, then maybe think about, well, how did you learn the handle conflict at home? Like what made you so difficult for you? You know, what do you feel like when you say no, what is your worry? Do you feel like you get rejected that you're not being loved anymore? That people don't care about you, that you mean that you're out, that you stand out, that you lose connection, is it that you feel like you're being a bully? And I really encourage you to acknowledge assertiveness is a skill. So assess why I can't you do it. Is it because you haven't practiced it? Is it the beliefs you have around it? Do you feel stressed or anxious around it? And then practice it. Start with small situations. Just go into it. And then you start learning, hey, what intensity do I need to speak in? How large of my language be? What words do I use? You know, that you really learn that right balance between being passive where you need to not being mad, or where you really agree. But other people's needs are being mad. Sorry, passive for other people needs are being mad. Do you not yours? Or sometimes at the beginning you might be a bit too aggressive because you have to learn to find unit, till you in the middle assertiveness is to compromise in the middle. Nice. I think the other side of that spectrum is, how would you feel if you didn't say no? So most people feel bad when they don't say no. Well, yeah, because they get this relief of avoidance, right? Okay, yeah, that makes sense. So if they brought up, as we say it in dogs, yeah. If they brought up that, hey, the sense of reward. Yeah, the sense of reward. And then it gets worse and worse. But the long term effect is that you have no picture of what your own needs are, that you have flow self-worth. You know, you don't even know how to ask for your needs being mad. You may be a track people who really take advantage of you because you always give, give, give, give. Then you get cornered. So initially you might feel good about it. And I'm pretty sure that if you, a person that doesn't like to say no and you start saying no, you will be anxious. You will be. It's normal. That's called neuroplasticity. Yep. You know, your brain is just going for the most efficient way. If that's how you, you and your family have dealt with this, creating a neurological path with this more work, makes you uncomfortable. But being uncomfortable is not a negative thing. No, stress is, stress in the right levels, as we've talked about before, is a very important thing. Yes, chronic stress is the key thing to look at. But we need stress. So I always tell people, don't judge life by discomfort. Judge life by, does it give you vitality? Are you flexible in your behaviors? Do you feel like your life is moving into a direction that you wanted to move? Do you feel like you, you have a sense of, of impact in your life? Do you feel like you have a bit of control in your life? If you feel like you are totally out of control in your life, look at assertiveness. Hmm. Yeah. Very nice. Well, I think it's a huge topic. It is, isn't it? It's a huge topic. And, and it just goes to show how deep rooted it can be in people and they don't pay particular attention to it. Because as you said, avoiding it is pleasurable. Like it gives them pleasure to avoid. Not ultimately, that's the problem is ultimately it doesn't. So you needed reward. Yeah, it's immediate reward, but not long term reward, short term reward, but not long term. Yes, and I think that the difficulty that we also see is very often people who haven't gotten their needs, but are also attracted to having a best friend in their dog. Yeah. You know, but then your dog will also need to hear no. And I'm again talking about the mistakes I made when I've got my dog from the pound. I am so disappointed myself, but I thought I have to treat a really special and as a super vulnerable being. I would never do that to my clients. I would never have pity for any of my clients. Like I would always know like, I know that we can work this out. Like there's help then we can work it out. But I had so much pity for my dog that's like, oh, you had such a tough life. Oh my God, you know, that I totally forgot. No, you need structure. You need to know what your boundaries are. You need to know the consequences because that gives you a picture after well because you haven't been socialized. And that relieved her anxiety so much. And it wasn't a cruel approach at all. It was just like not at all. No. So yeah, if you learn to be more assertive about your life, your dog will benefit. There was an old colleague of mine quite some time ago and I was in my 20s and this was when I was struggling with my own concept of saying no to people and we were actually coming to Sydney. We were leaving Melbourne coming to Sydney for a seminar. There were several of us in like, well, there were three of us in the car. And the colleague turned around to me. I don't I can't remember what the topic was, but it was around the fact of offering to do something and not following through with it. And we were having a discussion around that. I think somebody asked me something or wanted to book something in with me and I kept saying yeah, but I was I was skipping around on the appointment. And at that stage, my colleague turned around to me. He was driving and he turned around and he said, mate, can I give you some advice? I said, please. And he said, this will help you in life dramatically. He said, if you get this right, you'll feel at ease with a lot of things. I said, what's that? And he said, let your yes be a yes and you know, be a no yes. And he said, then you will find that you are at peace with a lot of things. Now I thought on that quite a lot over a series of years. And I'll give you one example. My grandfather wanted me to come down to his place one day and he lives like three hours away from me. And back then I was also an electrician. So he wanted me to put ceiling fans in for him at his house. And he said, Derek, and you can do it. I didn't want to do it because of the distance and just the pressure I was under from work at that time. And I had very little spare time. I was working pretty much six days a week. He wanted me to drive all the way down there. And you know, like he kind of implied if you love me, you'll do it, which was how my grandparents were kind of masters at that kind of what do you call emotional blackmail. And I felt really obliged to do it, but I didn't want to do it. But I kept mucking him around on the day. And I could see him getting angrier and angrier and angrier about it. So one day, even though I was quite anxious about it and I didn't want to say it, he sat down and he said, mate, can we do these fans or not? And I said, granted, I can't do it. I'm sorry. I'm just going to have to say no. But I said, I can point you at a colleague and he got upset because he wanted me to do it. Obviously, he wanted me to do it for free. And I said, I've got a colleague down there. I can put him in touch with you. He leaves 15 minutes away from you. He'll look after you on price. I said, I'll buy the fan for you as a gift, but I'll get him to put it in and he'll do it very cheap. And I said, I just like it's, I said, it's just going to take a lot of time out and I don't have time at the moment. And he kind of, he got up in a half and he walked off. When I after I got my colleague to the do it. I think my mum had words with him as well, but he rang me up and he said, "Look, I'm sorry that I was like that." And I kind of thought your smug old bastard at the time. I was pretty cranky with the way he handled it, but at least I appreciated that he went away and thought about it. But it actually gave me relief to say no to him finally, like to get it off my chest and finally say no. He was where I cut my teeth on it. He was the person that gave me the ability to say no because he was the person I was most afraid of saying no to at the time. And once I did it, the empowerment I felt, the incredible relief that I felt to be able to say no, to be able to commit to that no. I mean, I can say it easily now if I don't want to do things. Dave, the guy I work for, one of my best mates, fantastic guy. If Dave asked me to do something and I don't want to do it, I'd just say no. And Dave's fine with that. He knows that when I say no to something, it's not because I'm being difficult or I'm just being precious or I'm being a loo for whatever. Well, he understands that I actually, I've thought about it and I can't do it. And the impact on me. And even David sometimes will say no for me. Like if somebody wants me to do something and David knows that it's going to impact me too much because of my workflow, David will say he can't do it. He's too busy. He's doing a heap of things for me at the moment. And I appreciate that immensely because rather than him saying, yeah, he'll be right. Just throw that on his plate as well. He will turn around and he will say no for me. And I appreciate that other people do that. But I mean, you still need to have the ability to do it for yourself to say it for yourself. And I think it's really important what I should maybe also mention is that if you have been a yes, sayer or a self-sacrificeer and you haven't said no, people at the beginning will be a bit taken back by that because they had a good deal. You know, if you have a yes, say, no, it's a pretty sweet deal. So don't take that as a negative, prepare yourself that if you say no, people might make you a bit uncomfortable. But that's not a bad thing. That's just I'm having to adjust essentially. And to stick with it, you know, like once your intention has to stay, once you say it, like you said, yes, yes, no, it's no, you need to follow up because otherwise it turns up to be really confusing. So once you go in, stick with it. Let you yes be a yes and you know, be a no. Have you seen the movie Yes, man, with Jim Carrey? Is that the one where he has to say yes to life? That's the one. Yeah, it's been ages. Can't remember. Yeah, it's an interesting movie to watch and it's got a good ending in it. Well, I'm going to give it away. But effectively, like he has to say yes to everything, but in the end, he learns that he can also say no. Yes, because I was once given that voice always say yes to life. And I'm like, if I say yes to life, I will be dead really soon because I've already said yes to much in my life. Like, I'm a person that says too much yes and not enough. No. So I really had to work on that for burner prevention. And I think that's the message is it's not bad. You're allowed to say no. But both things in moderation are essential and they can make life complete and very pleasurable. But one over empowering the other one can have complications in my experience. Yes. You lose a real sense of self. You do. Great talk. Well, the great talk. I really enjoyed it. Yeah. It was almost therapy for me. Thanks, bud. Great. I love it. I always love coming here because it's so nice to bounce off things. Learn a lot too. Thank you. Thank you. Well, that's it for another episode of the Canine Paradigm. If you like what you heard, please like, rate and share. And remember, if you want to support the show, you can do that on Patreon for a little as $3 a month. You can help support the show. If you want extra content, we've got different tiers, $10 or $20. The different tiers get you obviously access to different levels and accessibility. But other than that, thank you once again to our special guest, Bertie, co-host of the show, Bertie O'Shady. Considering Pat still away, you're going to be my co-host on the next one as well. Yeah. So, buckle up people and get ready for the Bertie Express. Thank you. And Pat told me I have to cue the music because I'm thinking like you told me, can't cue the music.