Episode 70: Schema Therapy Solution Series - When life slaps you in the face. Dealing with grief and loss.

Imagine finishing a day without piles of paperwork waiting for you. Yes! For many mental health professionals, admin work takes hours away from client care. Novosite can really help change this. With streamlined psychometric assessments, automated scoring, and AI note-taking tools, Novosite takes care of all that busy work. So you can spend less time on forms and documentation, and more time supporting the people who matter most to you, your clients. So check out www.novosite.com to start your free trial. Hi, you're listening to What's the Schamatter? The Schemotherapy Podcasts for Therapists. With ISST accredited Schemotherapy supervisors and trainers, Chris Hayes and Rob Brockman. For more information on Schemotherapy, visit our website, SchemotherapyTraining.com. OK, guys, welcome to What's the Schamatter? This is our episode 60, 60 episodes of What's the Schamatter? Congratulations. That's a big number. Yeah, and I'm here with Wendy Bahari, and Wendy, if I'm sure many of you know Wendy, she is, well, I don't want to assume at the moment, where are you patching in from, Wendy? I'm in New Jersey. So you're patching in from New Jersey, hometown. And this is a part of our Schemotherapy Solution Series of podcasts. All right, within What's the Schamatter? And the idea of that series is that Wendy and myself, and at times Chris also, might unpack some core issues that everyday folks might be dealing with, and where Schemotherapy concepts and ideas might be really helpful for folks to unpack those issues and those challenges. Today, we're going to be talking about the issue of grief, dealing with grief as a human, and something that we all have to do. And this is a topic, Wendy, that's close to your heart at the moment, and something that you've been thinking a lot about over the last few months, and you haven't say a few things. Over the last 10 months, my husband died. I have been thinking about grief in its very, you know, in the more literal form of loss when you lose someone you love to to death. But I started also thinking about how much of our lives and our work is there, this, is geared towards helping people deal with multiple losses, so many different types of losses. And everyone listening, I'm sure, can relate to some of these, you know, not just the loss of a loved one, none of us have experienced the loss of a parent or a grandparent, or a sibling, or a friend, a cousin, a coworker, or partner, but you've lost so maybe lost a pet. Maybe you've lost your job. Maybe you've retired and you've lost a part of your identity. Maybe you've lost mobility. Maybe you've lost a dream. You know, a divorce can also produce a whole lot of grief in the death of a dream that a life that was supposed to be a certain way that never really emerged to become that. So death happens in many forms, grief comes with those losses. And that's what we're talking about today. Yeah, and this is, so we're talking to you about a title of the pod. And so this might be a good place to start. And part of the title that you proposed mentioned the idea of the architecture of grief. What do you mean by that? You know that it takes different form and different shapes for everyone. There is no one size fits all when it comes to grief. And there's no absolute timeline when it comes to grief. Grief is not linear. You know, grief is wavy. It can ebb and blow. It can rise and fall. That you can feel like you're okay. And then another moment later realized like your world is shattered again. So and then wonders there's something wrong with me. And a lot of folks when they're relating to you and your grief are thinking, you know, because they don't get it. Maybe they haven't lived it or not exactly in the way that you're living it. So there's an expectation about timelines, right? Like you're better now, right? And when it's the time as I've written about this, time really just reveals the permanence of the loss. It doesn't necessarily heal anything. I mean, things may get diluted in terms of intensity. Yeah. Quite as big and bold and powerful and painful. But it can be again. And it can rise again. So anyone listening to this, if you've been reactivated in your grief, that's not the thing we as therapists are so concerned about. We expect there to be reactivations of pain and suffering in a grieving process over perhaps a long period of time. For others, quite as long. Those aren't the kinds of things we worry about. We worry about other things that we can do. Yeah. I mean, part of what I'm hearing is that we, it's human beings, we are wired to suffer. If you care about things, then we are all going to suffer across our life at some stage. If you get out there and you do things and you're going to lose stuff, you're going to lose people. Every now and then, it hits me and I think about the fact. And also thinking about you last year as well, Wendy, it's a reminder, we all go into things and we're going to relationships, knowing that one day, the tragic thing will happen. If you love and one day, one day, you know, unless by some tragedy, you all die together at the same time, someone's going to lose, you know? Someone gets left behind. That's true also, you know, if you've lost someone, but it wasn't going very well. We know that many folks have, parents, they've lost where it wasn't a close and connected bond. The love wasn't there if you're doing the scheme of therapy solution course and you're identifying your own schemas based on your own stories, you may be discovering that, wow, you know, there was a lot of deprivation in my life or I developed an abandonment scheme because no one was there, you know, it was chaotic and there was a lot of loss or I never felt good about myself because I was constantly criticized. So that person dies and it's a different kind of grief, again, it goes back to that death of the wish or the dream or the what ifs or the maybe and now it's permanent. Now it's in that what I call the zone of never, you know, it's never going to change and even though intellectually you may know that when you're coming out of a terrible marriage or someone dies who never really loved you the way you needed and longed for and deserved, there's always that little vulnerable part of us that's, you know, kind of maybe wishing hoping dreaming that that could be reconciled in some form we could get that closure. I mean, death brings closure but it also brings grief in all kinds of complicated ways. I guess what I'm hearing too is grief is multifaceted, it's as you said, not linear but it's really seems to be quite different for everyone. It's this word that we give, the word grief, it really looks quite different for different people. Yes. For some it might be, I don't know, it might involve feelings like anger for others, it might be involving feelings like shame, you know, defectiveness or sorts of different, I think it works in different ways, we have this generic label that's, you know, when he's grieving or Rob's grieving or, you know, our loved ones are grieving, but it's not very nuanced, is it? No, and it sort of produces assumptions about what that needs. That's where the problem people, you know, because as you just said, it's not the same for everyone, for some people and some people are all of the above, so they're not necessarily going through these very kind of beautifully orchestrated stages, you know, they could be bumping into anger and then to sadness then back to anger and then back to disbelief and kind of surprise and to fear, to guilt, guilt is a big one, you know, when we think about the complexity of grief and people who are seeking help with their grief, I mean, it's great to have help and support around grief, it's not necessarily a therapeutic issue, but it may require some support. When it is a therapeutic issue, it might be because someone feels I don't deserve the copy, now that my loved one is gone, or it was all my fault, now that my marriage, horrible divorce, it's my fault, and I have to suffer now, so grief can get complicated, there can be a guilt of feeling joyful, you know, feeling apologetic for being joyful. So those are the things, you know, we pay attention to where with the schemas poke their heads in there. Interesting. - Well, I'll say hearing about that, as a, as a, So here you are reminded that a big sort of part of what we call grief might be some sort of struggle with the critic. You know that kind of mode seems to be a big part of what I guess makes the pain in Jua to, in a way, what we call grief might involve that in a self-criticism or pressure or guilt. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Who do you think you are? Oh, look at you having a good time. No, you don't deserve to be doing that, right? Now you should be ashamed of yourself. This isn't a time to be laughing or joking or, you know, if you only paid more attention and you did it right, if you didn't screw it up so badly, you wouldn't be sitting here all by yourself. So, yeah, that critic can show up like, oh, fertile soil in the grieving process. So I want to do a couple of things. So we're talking about modes a little bit, about the parts of us that might be activated when we are in a place like grieving. And also we work with schemas, we're thinking about the schemas, the kind of essence of that pain that you might be feeling. So I think we, I want to go there with you in a moment, Wendy, and we'll unpack that a bit more for our listeners. And I'm also thankful that you've been frank enough to talk about a little bit about a grief that you've been experiencing and thinking about all this. But I want to maybe do something similar, and in a sense, you know, I've been also grieving something, nothing as serious of what you have been. But it might also be interesting because it's also not as serious, and it's something I think that every day people might connect with. And it was, so one of my daughters, you know, has been quite a serious basketball player for the last probably four or five years, and it's this thing that we did together, and I mean, many hundreds or thousands of trainings and games, and she was kind of obsessed with it. And you know, a couple of weeks ago, she just sort of, we're getting ready for the new season, and she said, I like that, I'm not like, I want to go and do something else, I don't want to play basketball anymore. And it really, really threw me like it's really, and even now, I still haven't quite like, it's really thrown me. And you know, I, the healthy part of me knows that, you know, these things have to be autonomous, I mean, I mean, she could have wanted to do it, I mean, or there's no point. So you know, I've been supportive, and she wants to go and play football and do something different, which I'll get involved in. But so for me, and it brings up, it's a vulnerable thing, there's just this part of me that it's really sad, it's just really sad about something, I'm still unpacking it. You know, so it would be more, for me, more like the experience of vulnerability, you know. As I listen to that, Robbie, you know, I can feel the loss you're describing. There's a loss of a, you know, not one that you can't recoup, like he said, you couldn't get involved in other activities, she's still your daughter, you always have that connection. But it's a loss of something that was very special, and it was just yours, yours and hers, right? Yeah. You spent together that activity that you both could get excited about, and yeah, there's something, it's like when your child goes off to college, or, you know, suddenly they're married, or there's always transitions and changes, which result in both what we call developmentally appropriate, you know, even just lifestyle choices that are healthy and makes sense and part of transition and growth. But they're lost us too, there's loss involved in that. There's a badminton, you were starting to say something about vulnerability, which I guess you're still investigating, you know, those people listening to this might think, yeah, when I went through that, I had an intense reaction to it. So it's not just sadness and loss in the ways we would expect, but maybe I felt like, I felt I haven't happened in more recent years, I felt like I was all alone in the world in a bandend again, I felt like I had something wrong, you know, maybe it was my fault, and I created that, when you start getting again into those zones, you know, you're in schema territory. There's very important, you're touching a very precious part of oneself underneath, right? Yeah, yeah, there's probably been not so much of the critic, although maybe a little bit of like, is it something I did that I pushed you too much, those kind of ideas, but mainly I'm okay with that. It's more just a kind of, it's very visceral, like a sadness that just kind of hits you the gut. And the weird thing is, we had this grief thing planned for a while, like we're going to talk about it, you and I, and then it came up, this thing happened, and then I was sort of thinking, this is something I think people might relate to, it's an everyday thing, it's a kind of role, it's, and, but the thing that triggers a bit of it now, it was just like a punch on the gut, it'll be like a, because I've been obviously on all the like, dad, dad, basketball coach, you know, you know, Facebook Reels, and of course when they pop up now, or when I get a photo pop up for me a year ago when, you know, she was in a semi-final, something, you just get this kick in the cart, it's like, you know, I do, in fact you just activated a memory for me, and my daughter is well grown and married and on her own, living, you know, happily, thank goodness, but I remember when she was 12 years old, and I remember telling, I was, we were so close, we were so close, we were such a, where she was my baby girl, and I remember saying to my friends, she's not going to turn into one of those teens, you know, who doesn't want to have anything to do with, we're too close, it's just not going to happen, and then that morning came, when I was dropping her off at the school, and I leaned in for my hug before just, what are you doing? Why are you doing that? What are you doing? And then it started, and she got out of the car and I said, oh my God, they've got her, they took her. It was such a moment of, you know, astonishing, because there was, you know, a loss of sorts, and yet I could laugh at it too, because I saw she's growing, she's more aware of her identity now as a, yeah, free adolescent, and, you know, her autonomy and her wanting to be her own. Yeah, and some boundaries, like, as well, you know, she boundaries with your mom. Totally appropriate, but I was like, doesn't make it any easier. No, no, I mean, I know, I even was able to laugh about it then, but I certainly know parents who, you know, when you have issues of enmeshment, who are just so dependent on that child for your sense of value or worth or purpose, it can be, it can be pretty, you know, shattering. I've worked with clients like that. I know there are people out there who might be feeling that, and it can lead to some pretty devastating effect, if it's not, there's no help, no interventions. Yeah. So as I, I mean, obviously, I've been reflecting on it a lot, and, you know, why it's bothering me so much, it seems to be around those disconnection schemas. And I am someone probably have a bit of a deprivation schema, like many therapists. And so I think, I think it's in and around that that loss of connection, that loss of that space with her, the time with her, those kind of, I think it's mainly around that. I sometimes wonder if it's got a little bit of an abandonment flavor to it as well. In a sense, I haven't quite figured that one out. I know it's in that zone. It could be a little bit above. So that's, but that brings up for me that, and you mentioned in measurement, you've mentioned things like the critic and effectiveness. What are some of the central schemas involved in grief reactions? You know, when we pivot back to our schema solution ideas, what are some of the schemas you think there might be, you could say the perpetrators, in terms of some ongoing grief or some acute grief, schemas do you see? I think it's the ones we've mentioned, but let's elaborate. You know, if you have an abandonment schema, in any kind of, almost any kind of loss, death, divorce, someone moves away, child leaves the home. Child leaves basketball. Here we go, see things and people go away. I'm on my own again, just as I knew it was going to happen, because that's what the abandonment schema holds for. It's you're going to be alone. You'll be rejected. You'll be by yourselves. Things will end. Things will come to an end when anyone to really stick around and be there. It's about that proximity, which is also about connections. And so it can feel like that. And it's worth to, you know, lead to people to feel the crust and hopeless and despairing and perhaps giving up on the idea of allowing them to connect further or it can lead to a clinging, you know, when we talk about overcompensating kind of like grab it on and you can't go away from the kind of thing. It's funny when you took so part of it's about so this is schema part and there's a coping part as well as I reflect on my situation there's definitely a part that wants to go disengage from like future things that will be like oh you know to not invest so much let's say you know into the next thing there's that part but but I've come to think that's a little bit probably dysfunctional like it's a sort of protective part which is understandable but don't think that's what I really want so I think I'm going to be leaning more into like investing in whatever comes you know and I think that's I mean I think I'm sitting on that in a sense that might be the healthy way forward to right there isn't it you know sort of looking at how do I reconnect reestablish in a new way but it doesn't mean you can't continue to feel sad about the loss right we don't the the goal is not to make ourselves just feel better right we positive about everything yeah there there is real loss there is sadness that's legit it's honorable it's necessary and it's human it's way into that other zone like just describing that feeling of there you go I knew it was gonna I mean I remember when my husband died I can I can feel my mistrust schema get activated like uh well of course there's the punishment you know there's the ultimate punishment it was bound to happen um and I could hear myself being irrational about that but in some ways it also gives us when we're grieving a feeling of control and power because if I believe that I did something wrong or um I'm being punished or I pushed too hard or you said with your daughter then you feel like you actually have the power to fix it so it won't happen but in fact it's not about doing anything wrong or being punished or any of those things it's just life these are natural things once you've done you know your due diligence as a good parent you ask the questions you check yourself and you say no it's not about that she's she's a she's a young she's a girl who's moving on exploring other things but it's sad that's all it is we can attach all kinds of meaning to it from our schemas and reactions from our modes but the fact is it's just it's just sad it's interesting and the way you talk about the critic it's this idea also that that shame or the guilt and all those things comes from a place of almost trying to help you prevent it again or it's kind of almost has that kind of intention maybe that's underneath absolutely yeah see just watch it because you know this is what happens so now be careful because maybe it won't happen again if you do this this and this or you you pay both for attention to yourself and the critic so seductive in a way you know the critic can be very powerful and seductive and to reel you in so we've mentioned abandonment this could be one of the schemas driving a lot of the grief and I guess the pain behind the grief I'd like to put one out there and you've mentioned it I think enmeshment can be another big one like if you're really tight with someone you're really close to someone which can be a beautiful thing I guess the pain might be more it could be also issues to do with who am I to come up yes yes and you know because enmeshment is about your worth your value or identity or your sense of who you are is reflected in through that relationship and how you meet the needs of that individual how you sort of sense and succumb to what it is that they're needing most of all you lose yourself basically in that person a lot you know to put it in simple terms some people will say I felt like I was the parent of my parent right I was the one who had to sort of hear out what did my mom need in order to be okay and then provide that from be that person's for her so you have a role that becomes very powerful and important even though you have lost or had to forfeit a big chunk of yourself and that can you know transition right into becoming a parent yourself you know where those that hold is very great or it can sit side by side with abandonment you've been abandoned now you're clinging to your child because it's it's the only way you know that you can feel safe and securely attached and and have some sense of purpose and some sense of of value and then that of course is growing and looking for autonomy moving on making friends going away to college university and devastating as a lost the grief is not your typical grief of a child who is leading the nest it's devastating and unbearable you know which brings someone sometimes I don't know about you but I know some of my clients have found themselves left estranged by their children who can't the overbearing suffixating behaviors of an enmeshed parent yeah I mean there's a big issue in the world isn't it for parents and that's all too common and and I think there's a trend it's particularly in the Western world um towards more estrangement you know this is not an uncommon thing no it's not it's there's a lot being said about you know this whole issue of estrangement and you know canceling people the whole cancel culture and you know walking and gray rocking and all these popular terms that are being used to basically shut people out of your life going no contact um sometimes it's necessary for safety purposes could be used and could put these boundaries in place but sometimes it's coming purely out of this fear and and desperation that has not been reconciled from once upon a time so the loss and the grief is just so palpable in a way that um it feels unsurvival bit so we can so enmeshedment is this other one I think where you can have this big grief reaction to get abandonment enmeshedment you imagine if you had both of those things which can happen are you hearing right yeah um and I'm just kind of thinking about people that I've known and you know around the enmeshedment piece there's a couple of things I want to say one is I've had people say to me you know um Rob he was my everything right and I think for a period I sort of thought yeah yeah yeah you know you were married and it's like after some time they're like no no no you don't get it he was my everything like like and and you get underneath that and it's like we were we were we were two peas in a pot we were right and so now without that person I feel like I'm nothing all right or I don't know I wouldn't even know how I am so that can be I can sort of bring up grief in terms of identity issues um feeling love have you run into that have you run into that sort of thing oh yeah absolutely it's like I don't I don't even know how to make a simple decision on my own well now you bring up I think this is another schema this is going to be the one I'm just going to bring up which is a sense of competence to navigate the world like go hand in hand with enmeshment so people who do yeah really enmeshed sometimes have also forfeited their capacity or it's been taken away from them one person sort of controls everything in that there are autonomy or the competence yeah you feel a bit like a luxury except in the face of loss when you feel like I don't even know how to make a decision I'm you know I will conduct the experiment at times and say tell me your favorite color tell me your favorite ice cream flavor tell me your favorite oh I don't know and what they're thinking is you know what would my mom say or what would my partner say or what would my friend who just moved a thousand miles for me say they're in such a state of grief and this has been such a pattern over time yeah the grief is now complicated because the reality of their absent self and their absent inclination they don't even know their natural inclination you know it's an interesting experiment though that one can do you know which is just go out there and go on a distribution and figure out so this is who are who are my this is right this is the the enmeshedment identity piece I guess that might be part of the journey of moving forward is to find out who you are you know what in the face is not being with this person the the other thing with and I guess this is I'm a bit selfish here because we take it a bit more into a clinical zone and I totally get why people with issues with their parents right would often set strong boundaries or they might even strange their parents. thinking it's the solution and sometimes it might be if I think if it comes along if it's too overbearing or if it comes along with other things like abuse and things but what I've come to realize is the I wonder what you think this is what I think the solution to in measurement or in meshed patterns is not a strangement I think it's healthy boundaries so how can I stay connected with you such that we we can do that in a way that also observes some boundaries yes I don't know if I'm saying that right now I think I think you're saying it very clearly and I would I agree that's typically my bias as well like I said with the exception of granger and safety issues you know real threat to physical safety I think it's about how do you become that assertive advocate for yourself who can say there here's the limit here's the line I want to protect my relationship with you but I can only do that if we can put certain limits in place yeah and that's it's such a tough issue you know in a measurement and then it becomes an even tougher issue if you've lost that individual I know people who have actually been able to get to the place where they can set those healthy limits and then something happens to that person and now here comes the critic you know yeah you know there's some place you cut them off and look what happened and you know feeling all kind of yoke and responsibility and sorrow for the loss both you know grief finds its way through they're just like the critic does and sometimes they do that hand in hand and I guess I guess a part of if we think about what might help us navigate grief in a way that we can continue and and and have wellbeing what's the role of of I was his my question for you what's the role of the healthy adult in all of that and what's the role of figuring out a way to get our needs met you know I think when it comes to grief I have come to find for myself that stop fighting it um recognize that it will be a part of you it may be with you for the rest of tongue and it doesn't have to consume you it doesn't have to swallow you up or or interfere with your joy but it'll be there you know let it sit alongside of you pay attention to it every now and then give it some validation number they listen feel the sadness hope you're afraid of the sudden right I mean if you've grown up with deprivation sadness can be a very tough thing to accept right you feel sad and you feel at the same time scared to be sad because no one really ever comforted you in your sadness or emphasized with your sadness so it's hard for some folks to be able to find a space to feel that that you just let it be you know just let it be and then eventually you know you move on you distract you turn to other things in your life but to make a little room for it just like you would if you're a warrior you know you may not be able to get it completely you make a little space for it there and recognize it's a part of you that's the healthy form but I think you have deprivation schema you know where you've been emotionally tired of comfort and support and empathy and love and affection feeling these feelings can be just downright terrifying and everything not to feel them and of course grief's going to win it's going to push forth what's a part of it isn't it because you know particularly with triggers that are that are very acute like like the this of a loved one many of us might never have felt such vulnerability you know for maybe for a long time or ever I mean it can be of an intensity that we're not accustomed to dealing with right absolutely yeah this thing that you just don't want to even look at you know so that's I think the intensity is a big thing well intensity and intensity can show up like I said earlier you know there's some facets to grief and loss I've worked and maybe you have too I've worked with several people you know working with narcissistic men who get all of their identity and value out of their big time careers their fame their fortune their entourage their power and then suddenly they're retired you know they're no longer in these positions of power they are lost they are struggling they don't know what to call it they'll say I'm depressed and maybe they are in some cases but they're grieving they're grieving the loss of an identity that that space that felt like the thing that gave them their sense of sense and the identity was what what was that part do you think being you know this powerful top dog looked up to and the top dog so you bring up another thing in this conversation like there are things that I think might not really be to do with coping meaning you can be healthy adult and you're in a happy marriage and then something happens and then now you're left with all these feelings and schemes being triggered but I think you bring up another thing which in a clinical realm we might talk about as adjustment problems and that's when life slaps you in the face right with something or maybe some change that this is the way I kind of think about it that would often block you from your regular way of coping okay so the you know you're you're everyday coping style in the in the case of your NPD type of client or narcissistic type of client might be to be the top dog and that's the identity yeah that's who I am I am the top dog right and I've got this career and I've got this power and and then all of a sudden you for whatever reason it could be because you lost out on a political thing at work and all of a sudden you don't have a job or it could be through injury you don't have a job you can't do the thing that you usually do to be on top of it and that can be quite a process you know when when people are quite invested or even overly invested in a particular way of coping we will call it a coping mode or a coping mode and life sort of just says well no you're not going to do that and you don't have access to that and and and you know in clinical terms sometimes we might call that decompensating okay not having access to that form of compensation and then and then that can also create a lot of grief I think that can create a lot of a sense of vulnerability and self-criticism and a sense of being overwhelmed yeah because it's not just that I can't do these things it becomes I'm nothing without them yeah without that identity without being the top dog or the best or whatever identity for for others it could be other things it could be um you know that you were the helper you the person that was there's love on parenting the empty nesting you know I spent 30 years running around helping being the helper all of a sudden I don't have that identity yes I mean this can be very overwhelming absolutely and then there are some more subtle but still female and powerfully intense forms like one who loses their voice in a relationship so we see that in relationships that have become highly conflicted or the anger abuse and one partner has subjugation they subjugate they give up they give in they silence themselves they literally turn themselves on mute and there is a tremendous grief in that loss of self assertiveness opinions express communicating needs rights etc you know when I work with clients who are in a subjugated state it's not just the fear of what will happen that's a big reason that prompts them to subjugate themselves but it's also there's such I don't I can't feel me anymore I've lost myself completely all my friends who knew me knew me as a happy active assertive and do kind of person and now I'm just this kind of small shell of a human who has no voice anymore and we see that with people who are in relationships where they have been coercively controlled and from everyone silence threatened in some cases and they literally they're grieving for their own voice to make no longer access so what kind of coping do we tend to see in folks who are overwhelmed by grief I think often often you start to see and it's understandable and I say the word dysfunctional in a sense I don't exactly mean that because I think it's understandable that we're going to we're going to try to cope with certain feelings being overwhelmed but I guess that the idea is that the coping that way in the long run is probably going to prolong things or it might hurt you in other ways what sort of coping do you see most commonly you know in in its self-defeating form you know we're listen we're all humans the human condition is about moving towards pleasure and away from pain so when you're grieving you're in boot home when you know you are that doesn't necessarily they make it easier, but at least you have some insight into the fact of what's going on. A lot of people don't even know this is grief. They just know they're feeling awful and they're feeling hopeless and they're feeling despairing. They don't even know that what they're doing is grieving. Their whole nervous system is trying to grieve these losses. And so they'll do things like maybe to be a variety of things, drink too much, eat too much, eat too little, detach, leap more, detach. People just get quite detached. Getting to not feel work for. I mean, I know I did that. Is that possible? Better, you know, the more disturbed, better. And I felt like, well, why not? That's not an unhealthy thing until you realize it's hard, right? That one's very addictive, the overworking one. We might share that one, Wendy. You know, we might share that's why we like each other partly so much. So guys, I mean, before I wrap up, Wendy and sort of aren't towards wrapping up, was there anything else you want to bring up or for the listeners around this? Just, you know, to be gentle with yourselves. You know, when you're going through a state of grief, you know, look closely at your sadness, your despair, your losses, your longings, your dreams, things that have changed, things of transition, death, divorce. You know, and am I in a grief state? Because a lot of people will think, I can't be grief. I'm already, you know, six months out. Oh, you know, I can't. I dealt with that. Can be. So, you know, be patient, be gentle with yourself. Don't pressure yourself into some ridiculous timeline about when this is supposed to come to a conclusion. You know, look around for that critic. So one, so one principle is compassion. Yeah. Be kind yourself. Look out for that critic. Don't let them overwhelm you too much. All right. Approach yourself with kindness in these moments. This is a big principle. Yeah. And expect people to say all the wrong things because they will. They around grief and they may do their best. They have good intentions. Most people don't really know what to say. So expect things to be said to you that may not be so helpful. And sometimes they will be looked for people who you can be vulnerable with, you know, really be yourself with. And don't apologize for talking about the things that are painful to you. That's not your responsibility to decide that it's too much. That's the responsibility of your friend is listening. Yeah. But help if you need it. If you're finding that it's really getting so complicated that you're denying yourself the opportunity for any joy. So some of the work too is not always sometimes you need some time alone, but sometimes it can help to reach out and to have those people who can help you understand things and process things and just to feel like you got some support and backing sometimes that can help. And take your team a list and take a look and see. One of those little buggers popping up again. Well, that's the thing too, right? Because to be aware of, you know, to get a hold of the schemers, I guess, to name it, to tame it, right? What's actually showing up for me? What is this about? Why is this, why is this prolonged? Why is this so painful? Well, actually makes a lot of sense because of X schema and Y schema. And this is a way of processing things to link to the schemers. Okay, for those of you that are invested in, you know, schema solution or understanding yourself more via your schemes. Also recognizing the coping styles that are showing up, all right? And what particular way is my coping at the moment? This is another way of building that sort of awareness. And I guess ensuring that we don't stick around too much in coping mechanisms that might be ultimately hurting me or blocking my needs or moving forward. And the big perpetrator, the inner critic. Yeah, this can be one of the biggest lessons dealing with the critic. So Wendy, thanks for meeting with me today and talking about this very important topic. I think this is very human and just about everyone would face something like this eventually. And so I think it's very useful for everybody. Thank you, Wendy. And also to reminder that in November this year, we're also planning a webinar on the topic, which is going to be a bit more of a clinical angle. So if you're a therapist and you've been, and you like some of the ideas that we've been talking about, and then Wendy's been talking about Wendy's going to run a clinician's webinar, you know, one focused on a scheme of practice and how to formulate and work through some of these grief type presentations from a schema therapy perspective. So I'm really looking forward to that. But for today, for today, Wendy, it is Adios. And I will see you soon enough. All right. If not before November, November's webinar, then I'll be seeing you then. So thanks for coming along, Wendy. We'll see you soon. Are you looking to develop your skills in schema therapy? Well, it's so schema therapy training online offers practical, clinically focused training with leading international experts. It's live. It's a man. It's extremely convenient. And it's available to you by visiting schema therapy training online.com.